Matthew McConaughey: The Silent Crisis No One Is Talking About! The Harsh Truth About Living Without Faith

I think too many people quit too early.

And we give ourselves the options in the parachutes and things like relationships and work, self-help.

And we pull at some when we can still be flying, even though maybe a rocky flight.

We pull it early.

And okay, it's a safe move.

Got down to the ground.

What I was building didn't last, but most of the time, it could if you'd have hung in there.

But if you have any ambition, resistance has got to come.

And so own that.

Matthew.

Matthew.

Matthew!

What's up, hey?

You've been able to climb to the very top of the mountain again and again and again.

Is this natural talent or is there anything transferable?

First, look at what's in your DNA.

Like, I wanted to play basketball, but no matter how hard I worked, I was not the fastest nor the biggest.

So look at what do you have an innate ability for.

Then, what are you willing to hustle for?

And this is very important because some of us have innate ability, but we don't work for it.

We grew up hardcore on hustle, hustle, hustle.

Sleep was sin in my household.

No TV.

Mom would always say, why are you going to watch someone doing something when you can go out in the world and do it yourself?

And then, number three, endurance.

I remember this one time when I told my agent, what I want to do is dramas, no more rom-com.

And this $8 million offer comes in comedy.

I read it.

I said, no, thank you.

I come back with a $12 million offer.

No, thanks.

$14.5 million offer.

I said, let me read that again.

I ultimately said, no.

I just put myself a one-way ticket out of Hollywood.

But 20 months after offers came in, would those have come if I'd have never stepped out?

No.

Well, number four, if you do this, you're most likely going to have some success in life.

And that is you.

And what about Admiral Bill McRaven?

So he shared great wisdom with me when I was seeking out male mentors.

We reached out to Bill, and he wrote this letter for you.

He said, Dear Matthew,

Wow.

Are you able to share what you were seeking guidance from him about?

Just give me 30 seconds of your time.

Two things I wanted to say.

The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week.

It means the world to all of us.

And this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place.

But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started.

And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app.

Here's a promise I'm going to make to you.

I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future.

We're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to and we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show thank you

matthew

you're a

particularly surprisingly artistic creative

wise

yet materially successful individual and It wasn't until I dove deeper into your story that I started to understand why that was, why you are to me, in my mind, such an anomaly.

Because you are, you seem to be several things that don't often appear in the same place.

So, my first question to you is:

what do I need to understand about your earliest context to understand

who you are, the values you have, and the perspective that you view the world with?

Fun question.

Earliest on.

Basic values

of

respect yourself, respect others.

Give a damn about yourself, give a damn about others.

Combined with a mother that

wherever we went

in the world,

that we might have been a little nervous to take a risk at.

She was like, don't walk in there like you want to buy the place, walk in like you own it.

So a sort of boosting up of what you could say is massive ego, but also

you were not allowed to walk on your proverbial toes in our family.

You were brought down.

And if anyone

in our family, if anything, I would say going back, I think mom and dad maybe could have been a little more lenient with the successes that we had.

And when we did parade, when my brother did win the track meet and walk through the house like this, to allow him to do that,

you weren't allowed to do that.

You were immediately humbled, no matter if you were coming right off a victory or a win or a box office hit.

You weren't allowed to.

at the same time

you were raised up once you were humbled um

that balance we were taught resilience heavy heavy duty resilience baseline gratitude

quit asking me for new shoes i'm going to introduce you to the kid with no feet whoa

okay like sobering

these were these aphorisms from my mother yeah but they were pounded into us all right at the same time

i went 36 years thinking I was little Mr.

Texas because my mom told me I was.

Until 36 years later, I look at the trophy and it says I was runner up.

And I go, oh, mom is like overselling us to ourselves at the same time.

You better be humble.

So it was almost like that.

Anything exterior

should not give you your identity.

Even though my mom's malaprop and fibbing to us, going, you're little Mr.

Texas.

Or here, write this poem.

I know you didn't write it, but it's really good.

So turn that in for the seventh grade poetry contest.

Okay.

And I win.

It's a true story.

So this outlaw logic of my mom and my dad, also with work ethic, hustle, hustle, hustle.

Sleep was sin in my household.

Sin.

I saw my dad asleep one time in my life.

I got up at eight o'clock on a Saturday morning and looked, peeked, went through the kitchen and peeked and I saw him sleep.

And I went and woke up.

My brother's like, dude, dad's still asleep.

He actually died two and a half months later

and connected that idea that, oh, if he slept in that late, he must have not been feeling well.

If it was daylight, you couldn't be inside.

There's a fierce sense of independence.

30 minutes TV a night, max.

Mom would always say, why are you going to watch someone doing something when you can go out in the world and do it yourself?

Turn that damn thing off, get outside.

You had to be outside.

Like, go get out in the world.

Go hustle.

Figure it out.

Be home at dark.

That was just the understood rule.

What about love?

We always knew we were loved.

There's never a question that we were loved.

As

loving each other, loving mom and dad, being loved by mom and dad, and making, and mom would always keep on to make sure you're loving yourself.

I remember breakups, heartbroken.

She'd let us mourn.

She was a great ear, very sensitive ear to that kind of pains like that, broken hearts.

But only for a day.

After a day, she'd crank up the ACDC, man, and go like, now,

get up.

You're worth it.

Her loss.

Come on, get out of bed.

Uh-uh.

Come on.

Uh-uh.

Quit moping.

Lift your head up.

Come on.

Come on, buddy.

We got this.

Uh-uh.

Her loss.

Give you the day.

No more than that.

Our love in the family was physical.

My mom and dad

married three times, divorced twice to each other.

They

fought.

I got a great story in Greenlights of them fighting and my mom bashing and breaking my dad's nose with the phone, him getting angry, her pulling a chef's knife out,

him dancing around, dodging these blades and then grabbing a ketchup bottle and

like a matador, going

touche

and splattering with it.

And she's getting it out of her, just getting so dim.

And I'll cut you from your fucked gull over

touche.

And finally, her getting so frustrated, throwing the knife down, crying, both of them crying, coming together, embracing, going to the floor on the linoleum kitchen floor and making love.

No grudges.

No grounding.

You get in trouble, which we did.

One, we were always guilty when we got in trouble, but it was corporal.

It was take your licks.

Get it over with, take your licks.

We're not going to ground you because that'd be taking away your time.

And your time is the most valuable thing you got.

So take it, take your licks.

You're not going to get injured.

It's going to hurt.

And don't yell because if you yell, one of the licks, you're going to get another one.

Licks.

Licks.

With a belt.

I can't, I hate, and lying were three things that you got in trouble for.

If I said I can't,

my dad's teeth would just start to go,

excuse me.

Sure, you're not just having trouble?

I remember this one time.

I was going out to do my chores Saturday morning to mow the lawn and I couldn't get the damn lawnmower to start.

Checked everything, couldn't get it started.

I'm going inside.

I said, Dad, can you you help me?

I can't get the lawnmower started.

And he turned around, saw his moulders, and I went,

and he got up, walked with me through the kitchen, through the garage, out the backyard, went to the lawnmower, messed around, pulled a couple things out,

after about 10 minutes, boom, cranked it.

And while the lawnmower was running right there,

he came over to me and bent down and looked me out and he goes, see, son,

you were just having trouble.

I said, I hate you to my brother because I heard the word at school and I thought it could make me feel like I was older.

I thought it was like a teenage soap opera thing and I was only nine.

So I threw it out there one day at my own birthday party.

My own birthday party.

I said to my brother, I hate you.

And my mom

stopped.

The entire party.

40 kids my age in the backyard stopped it.

My birthday.

Stopped it.

Pulled me around the side of the house.

And she says, what did you say?

You don't ever use that word, especially to someone in your family.

Gave me licks on the side of the house

and then went around.

She said, dry your tears, resume, birthday party's back on.

Don't ever use that word, especially to someone in your family.

So what did I learn from

don't say can't?

That

unable to do something,

even if you can't pull it off, you can go find help.

Which means you were just having trouble.

What did I learn from getting a butt whooping for saying, I hate you to my brother?

Well, what I was learning is the antonyms to those words.

Because saying I can't, lying, and saying I hate you were bringing me pain.

So the opposite must bring pleasure, right?

Tell the truth, love,

and believe that you can.

Those were the values how I remember them getting instilled in me.

And to this day,

I still have them.

Trying to transform to my kids as well in a different way than my parents did.

But I still not even intellectually have them.

They're in my being now.

So

the love was tough.

The love was physical.

We hugged

999 times more than we, more than the hands soothed much more than they hurt, 999 times out of a thousand.

But it was a, we were a physical, hugging, loving family.

You always went to bed with an I love you and a kiss, even if it was ritual, which it was.

Like a Sunday service, got to wake up.

Even if I'm not listening to the damn preacher, I'm being subconsciously reminded that you should take a day out of the week to be, at the most, number two, that you should go get humbled and say thank you to a higher power and thank you for the things that you have in your life and thank you for the people you have in your life and helping those people double down on those great attributes that they have.

So the love was all there.

I'm happy to say that all the, I have people, you know, after that story story I told about my mom and dad with the knife and the catch-up, people come and say, oh my God, I'm so sorry about your childhood.

Oh my God, have you had therapy?

I'm like, no.

And before you, please, if you don't mind,

don't,

I feel like you're trespassing a little bit by giving, by coming out of the gate saying, oh, my God, you were abused.

No, I wasn't abused.

And I never felt like I wasn't loved.

Again, I felt like I let my parents down those times.

Did I fear my parents?

Yep.

Are there a lot of things I did not do as a kid that I should not have done for fear of the consequences?

Yep.

We knew we were loved.

I knew I was loved.

My brothers knew they were loved.

My second brother's adopted.

He knew he was loved.

And it was hard love, and it was tough love.

And my mom and dad's love was passionate love.

I mean, divorced twice, married three times is a pretty good example of can't live with you, can't live without you.

The one thing I remember being as crystal clear to me when I was eight years old,

shaking hands with these two guys that turned out now later in life, I know they were actually dad's collectors.

I shook their hand, Oak Forest Country Club parking lot.

Sun was down in my eyes.

They had shades on.

I asked her, Nice to meet you, sir.

Nice to meet you, sir.

And I remember in my eight-year-old mind going, you know, everyone that my dad's making me say sir to,

the one common denominator besides being older men is they're all fathers.

And in my head, I went, oh, that's what success is.

If you become a father, you've succeeded.

And that was in my eight-year-old.

That was the math I did in my eight-year-old mind, and it stuck with me.

So

the one thing I always knew that I wanted to be was a dad.

I meet Camilla, fall in love.

We

make three children.

I got to 17, 15, 12.

There's There's nothing

that I can put ahead of it.

Let me put it this way.

There's no time that I spend being a father that I do not feel like that is the absolute best time I could be spending.

You've had that since you were eight.

Yeah.

I've never heard that before.

I longed for that.

I thought that was when you've made it.

Outside of wanting to be a father at eight years old, which is fascinating to me and something I do want to talk more about because I think that's a lost

goal in society, unfortunately.

Is at that age, when you sort of in your adolescent years, if I'd asked you at the time what you want to be when you're older in a professional context, what would your answer have been?

15, 16 years old?

Washington red-skinned running back.

But coming about 16, as I started to find out playing football that I was not the fastest nor the biggest,

it then became probably,

I don't know if I really want to be this, but I sure am told

I'm really good at debate.

I'm a really good debater.

I would win over arguments with the family when it would be like where to go or, you know, if I could go out and why.

I would have a great presentation.

My parents were like, geez, and they'd give us the floor.

Go ahead.

Take the floor.

Let's hear your argument.

And they'd be like, damn.

And so the word around 15, 16 was like,

you got to go to law school, buddy.

Go be a lawyer and be the family lawyer, man.

God dang, man.

you're a really good arguer.

You make great arguments.

And if it's not a great argument, damn, you got endurance.

You'll just outlast people.

And that became the thing.

So I started to enjoy that.

And that's where I was headed towards law school.

And

I was reading about your youth exchange year in Australia

and that you'd struggled a little bit in class and you were skipping class to read poems

by Lord Byron.

Yeah.

So

I just, I had graduated high school at home in Longview in America.

And at 18, I just turned 18.

18 in my family was

freedom.

If you hadn't, I remember this.

If you hadn't learned it yet, you ain't going to learn it.

18 was now

no curfew.

You've got it.

You've got it.

Come on when you want.

Do what you want.

And I was rolling.

I had straight A's.

Mom and dad are happy.

i got a job on the weekends and after school i got 45 bucks cash in my pocket every day i got a car it's paid for i'm dating the best-looking girl at my school seeing the other girl at the other school i got a playing golf i got a four handicap i've had two holes and ones i got no curfew talk about green lights i'm rolling

i don't know what i want to do when i get out of high school exactly but law school's coming up but you know what my mom goes what about exchange student sweden and australia were the two and i chose australia because said

speak english and maybe l mcpherson's over there

18 year old mine right thinking right so boom i go to australia

i was told i was gonna be living on the outskirts of sydney which sounded exciting to me it was not the it was the outskirts but it was three and a half hours from there and it was in a very small town a population 305 people of warnervale and i remember pulling up that gravel driveway with that host family

and when the brakes and they were like, welcome to Australia, mate.

I was like,

all right, not what I thought, but I can make this work.

All of a sudden, I don't have my car.

I ain't got my girlfriend.

I want to go see on the other side of town.

I don't have my golf clubs.

I ain't got money in my pocket.

And I got a 10 p.m.

curfew, even on Friday and Saturday night.

I'm going to school again.

So I feel like I'm going in reverse.

Socially, none of the friends at the school, they put me in my junior year over there because I went mid-semester and they wanted me to go first half of the year with the juniors so I could carry on the second half of my year with what would become seniors.

So I'm going, I feel like I'm going backwards.

Socially,

no one's got a car.

Their interests seem to be different.

The teachers are

not,

I'm failing.

They're giving me Fs and everything.

So I start skipping this class, going to the library, and I find Lord Byron.

And I got my Walkman.

And I remember I had U2's Rattle and Hum on cassette.

I had Maxie Priest.

Maxie Priest, he's got a great Cat Stevens cover.

And

an NXS album, which was an Aussie band.

Hutchinson is lead singer.

And those are my rotation,

especially Rattle and Hum.

Rattle and Hum, very socially conscious album about oppression and

silver and gold, man, that's what we're all after.

Oh, yeah, you think that's going to get you to the higher ground?

Oh, the evils of,

you know, capitalism gone wrong and things like that and freeing Nelson Mandela and all that

worldly things that Bono and you two were talking about.

We're like, oh, making sense to me.

I'm outside of my...

home.

I'm on a little island.

You learn, you know, to have an objective, first objective, look back at your own life.

When you leave what you know, you find out a lot about what you actually know.

And all of a sudden, I'm seeing what my life was

as that kid who got the money and I'm flowing.

And I'm starting to look back on, I missed that, but I'm also going like, you're kind of good time rolling Charlie.

You're popular.

Everything's going great for you.

I didn't have any resistance in front of me, which was fine.

But boy, now I got a lot of resistance in front of me.

I don't have my friends to talk to.

I got questions coming up.

This family's very, we have a very awkward relationship with the family.

They even wanted me to call them one night and said, from now on, you'll address us as mom and pop,

which

was a seminal moment because many things had happened up until that point that were odd that I was going,

okay, that's just a cultural difference.

That's Yubicon, eh?

Hey, stay open here.

That's a cultural difference.

But I remember the night they said that, and it was the first time, and I needed it, it was six months into my trip.

It's the first time I went,

No,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

I'm not doing that.

It was clear, it was the first time I had clarity.

Remember, at this time,

I'm reading Lord Byron

in

the library.

The principals come to now see me and go, Look, it doesn't look like school's going good for you.

We have this thing called work experience.

Let's get you a job.

You won't get paid.

So, I worked at the ANZ Bank.

I work at the barrister's office.

I'm taking these odd jobs as a carpenter and all these different things.

And my home life is this over in Australia.

I am getting home.

We have dinner at 5.

We eat from 5 to 5:30.

I clean the dishes.

I am immediately going back to my room,

take a bath,

listen to one of those three album cassettes, read Lord Byron in the bathtub,

work one out.

Six nights a week.

I'm running six miles a day.

I've become vegetarian.

I'm eating lettuce, freaking lettuce head with ketchup on it.

I'm down to 135 pounds.

I'm pretty doggone sure that my job is to go to South Africa.

And I'm supposed to, I'm going to be a monk.

And

that's where I'm going.

Now, I look back now and I see, oh, I needed these disciplines to give me a sense of measurement each day of, oh, I've got my own thing going here because my home life, I was lost, man.

I'm lost.

I don't have any, I'm writing 16-page letters to myself and I'm returning them with a 17-page letter.

Socratic letters to myself.

About what?

Existential views, existential questions mixed in with, oh, everything's going great, trying to talk myself into keeping my head up, you know what I mean?

But I chose, in hindsight, everyone's like, why didn't you come home early?

And I remember it very clearly when I said, yes, I'll go become an exchange student.

The ambassador, the American ambassador, said, sign this contract that says you won't return until a full year unless there's a fatality in your family or you're majorly sick.

And I said, I'm not signing that.

I'll give you a handshake on it, man, because I'm going over there for the year.

I'm not pulling the parachute.

And I remember

that handshake.

And I remember what my dad told me about what happens when two men shake a hand, that you don't need a contract, that that is the contract.

And I had a certain honor with that.

There was no way I was coming home.

If I'd have come home, I'd have felt like I did my dad wrong.

So while I'm over in Australia going inside out, imploding,

I start to find a little power in the fact that, oh man, the harder this gets, the greater the reward there's going to be on the other side once I get out of here.

Because it was non-negotiable.

I was staying the year.

So I never gave my mind the chance to go, well, you could go home.

Uh-uh.

That was never on my proverbial mental table as a choice.

So I started to get identity off the strength of making that choice.

The rest of the year became much easier.

At least some of the troubles I was having, I was laughing at.

I wasn't going to the bathtub at 5.30 doing what I was doing many and nears many times a week, if at all.

All of a sudden, I'm kind of starting to live a little life and dancing with it, going, yeah, man,

it's just not easy, but this is how it is.

We got it.

We got it.

I'm writing,

writing first poems in there that I wrote.

And then life brings you back to Texas to study law.

Yeah.

Which

doesn't end up working out for you because in your sophomore year, you start questioning yourself.

I think based on this little book.

Yep.

That book right there is a gift.

So you're studying law and you start questioning yourself because of something you read in this book?

So this book, between my, it was the end of my sophomore year.

I'm headed towards law school, going to take my finals.

I was a study bug.

I made A's across the board.

And all of a sudden, for the first time in my life, I go, dude, you got this.

You don't need to study this anymore.

And I shut my books.

I've never done that before.

And now I got two hours before my first exam.

And I look over and there's a stack of magazines over here, Sports Illustrated, Playboys, Penthouse.

I'm like, oh, I like sports.

I like women too.

Let's check these out.

I flip through.

Eh, nothing, nothing, nothing.

After about the seventh magazine deep, I look down

and this

book is laying there.

And this is what's facing me.

It's in the middle of the stack of the magazines.

And I look at it and I go, the greatest salesman in the world.

And I said it aloud.

I go, who's that?

I pick it up and I start reading.

First chapter is about forming good habits and becoming their slave.

And I remember thinking, well, if you're going to go against yourself and go to law school, and you're just going to say, yeah, I think I'll do it.

That's not a good habit, McConney.

Hey, it's not a good habit for you.

You might be missing out on something.

You may create a new habit of just doing what you think you were expected to do.

That was the thinking in my mind.

And I said, all right, well, I'm going to.

I want to go to film school.

I don't want to go to law school.

I want to go to film school.

Simply because the book mentioned that having the habit of doing something just because you think you should or can issue it.

I even, that part,

I verbalized that.

It didn't even say that directly.

Just saying, I will form good habits and become their slave.

And I was like, if I go to law school, that's making me a slave to a bad habit.

And the bad habit being.

Bad habit being,

you'd be good at it.

It's kind of what you're supposed to do.

It's all you've ever ever kind of thought you were doing.

It's what everyone expects you to do in the family.

But

remember,

it's keeping me up at night.

Ah, long school in the 20s.

I don't know.

I've also got this other thing.

I've got a friend telling me, your short stories are good, man.

You can tell a good story when we filmmaking.

You can tell,

that sounds fun.

Then I go, my dad's paying for school.

I got to get permission from him first.

So I go, okay, what's a good time to call him?

I remember I planned it out.

I said, it was Monday, and I said, I'll call him now.

I said, no, no, no, he's at work.

Don't call him now at work.

He won't be able to compartmentalize.

This is going to come out of left field for him.

He's in the middle of pipe sales, right?

I said, I'll call him tonight.

He said, no, no, no, Monday back from work.

It's a stressful day.

Tuesday night, 7.30, second day of the week.

He's into the work week.

He'll have eaten dinner.

He's on the couch having a beer with mom.

Called him at 7.36 p.m.

I remember the number.

Hey, Pop.

Hey, what's up, Monkey Man?

So listen, can I talk to you about something?

Sure.

I said, Dad,

I don't want to go to law school anymore.

I want to go to film school.

And I'm like, little bead of sweat starts to go down the back of my neck.

I'm like, here it comes.

You want to, what?

I thought he was going to go into all this stuff about like my ass.

You think I'm being with that?

That can be a hobby, but that's not a drill job.

I thought all this was coming.

And after about a five-second pause, he goes, I hear this.

Are you sure that's what you want to do?

Yes, sir.

Another long pause.

Then I hear, well,

don't half-ass it.

And I remember just beaming, hopping up, just like, ah,

yes, launch pad, man.

My dad not only said okay,

in the way he said don't half-ass it was also, okay,

let's go, big boy.

Own that shit.

Get some leverage, get some horsepower behind where you're going.

Go do it.

Now, I remember to this day, and I've learned this later, I think, from becoming a father, part of what I believe happened to him and why he said that to me that way on that call

was the way that I asked him, how I just,

I wasn't really asking, was I?

I don't want to go to law school, dad.

I want to go to film school.

I didn't stutter.

He heard his son saying, this is what I want to do.

And what I think happened to him in that moment is what I think any father, any parent loves is you raise your kids in a certain way and you give them a guideline, a ladder to climb.

And here's the guidelines.

If you do it this way, you're most likely going to have some success in life and it'll work out for you.

And when we do it that way, we can be proud parents.

But what do we really want to happen?

when our parents, when our kids are out of the house and they're on their own,

we kind of want them to call one day and go, I'm breaking out.

I'm going my own way.

I'm going my own way.

And as a parent, we go, as much as it may scare us, we're going, yes.

I gave my kid the confidence and the courage and the foundation to say, they're going to go their own way.

And in a way, I think every parent honors and loves that moment.

And I heard my dad, when he didn't hear me stutter, when he heard me directly say what I said.

And I wasn't really asking him, even though I was out of respect asking him the way I said it, I wasn't asking him.

And I think he felt that.

And don't half-ass it.

Don't half-ass it.

As a philosophy for life, how important has that proven to be since then?

Because you've remembered it, and I've heard you

reference it as being important.

Look,

it's become quite, and again, not, it's become more than intellectually important or more than something.

I don't, you know, I don't need to put it on my fridge to remind me.

It has become important in relationships.

It has become important in work.

It has become important in self-health.

It has become important for my own spirituality.

It's become important for me as a father, as a husband.

Relationship-wise, don't have assets.

What that's turned into me is another sort of theory I have, and I call it own, don't rent.

Going with an owner's mindset into relationships.

Most relationships that we make, hire an assistant or girlfriend, boyfriend, most of them don't last the whole life.

But

I believe that if you go into those with the idea that I wanted to be a lifer, if this works out, hopefully this is forever.

Usually they don't end up being that.

But the owner's mentality will give you that, you and that person, the dignity and the power to go,

we can be everything we can be in this relationship.

And if it doesn't work out, we say it didn't work out.

But if I'm going into the renter's mentality, I flip it.

Yeah,

I'll do this for a few weeks.

Yeah,

I don't know if this kid's going to make it.

Maybe, maybe a couple of months.

You're not going to get the most out of that person.

Well, it was like you in Australia.

You went in committed to owning that full experience and not leaving.

There's something really people tell me all the time, especially married people, because I asked them, I say, What's why do people get married?

Why don't you just, you know, why did you need the contract?

And they talked to me about how going in with commitment itself

changes how you deal with the inevitability of the messiness, the messiness that you saw in your parents' relationships

and challenge itself.

Like challenge, as you saw in Australia, but also in your parents' marriage, is like inbuilt into all things meaningful.

And if you go in with that renter mentality, the first red light, you're out.

You know what you do?

Something happened.

You're like, oh, this is a sign of things to come.

Oh, this is only going to get work.

No, when you get married, you're like, we're owning this.

Oh, my alarms, the spider sense, my alarms didn't start going off because we're going to work through this.

And if it does become a habit, we'll work through it.

Or it's a one-off, and I just got to put up with it because

they like to do what they're doing more than I don't like them doing that, which is another good measurement.

You know,

I guess it begets the question about the role or the benefit of having plan B's because we're increasingly told to have plan B in a relationship or plan C, D, and E, and in work, a plan C, D, and E.

And options can make us a tyrant.

Too many options can make a tyrant of any of us, man.

You know what I mean?

So can conveniences.

You know what I mean?

And

when you don't give yourself that option, and mind you, there's plenty of divorces out there that were necessary and were good for both of them.

Problem.

But I think there's more

divorces

because

someone had a little, gave themselves the out.

had the renter's mentality.

Ooh, first sign of smoke, I'm going to say there's fire.

Be Be easier to get out of here.

Path least resistance.

Sorry.

I think too many people quit.

I think that that's more of a problem than the divorces that are ones that turned out to be good.

So many people are at that stage in their life where

they might have that bad habit that you described.

They might know that they're in a situation which isn't for them.

Maybe their parents gave them this idea.

Society pushed them into that position.

And

I think it's the uncertainty that keeps them trapped like the certain misery is often much more appealing than the uncertainty yay and i i just want you you managed to to make that change which is quite rare well

what that reminds me of is

i started to become a little cynical which is different than being skeptical i believe it we go from innocence when we're born to naivete to skepticism where we're discerning and discriminate on choices.

We have judgment.

And then the next one is off the cliff, what I think is cynicism.

The misery of cynicism is a hell of a lot easier than the optimism and belief of skepticism.

Hell of a lot easier.

It's a, ah, easy.

Bam, put it down.

Oh, that's hard.

Bam, I'm out.

The individuality, bam, nah, man.

If it's hard, if I sweat, don't do it.

Uh-uh.

Bam, easy to put him down.

Hey, everyone just laughed at my joke.

See, it was easy.

I was a life of the party.

I think less respected once you leave that situation, but

now you're living in doubt and you're also doubting yourself.

That I don't want to work that hard.

I don't want to see if I can make that work anymore.

I don't want to give that person the benefit of the doubt because it can be a lot of work and they're going to fucking screw up.

And I'm going to go, told you so.

Nah, so let's not even try it.

Or if I do try it, let's just rent.

Let's do more than just sign that prenump.

You know what I mean?

There's parachute.

We give ourselves the options and the parachutes in too many places.

We pull it early when we could still be flying, even though maybe rocky flight.

Pull at some bitch.

Okay, it was a safe move.

Got down to the ground.

What I was building didn't last.

Sometimes maybe it shouldn't.

I think most of the time it could if you'd have hung in in there.

Both of you.

Before we started recording, we were having a little bit of a chat about a thought that's been on my mind recently about how independence and I guess an abundance of choice kind of links to that might be leading people astray.

Because the most, it appears to me the most fulfilled people that I know generally have a lot of dependence.

The culture we live in tells us to like be our own boss, stand on your own two feet.

More people are lonely than ever, less friends than ever, less likely to have kids, less likely to get married.

And it feels like independence, and those people often, I think, are struggling.

I think of so many of my friends, one in particular that I've mentioned a few times, who 38 years old, living the life of independence, like a picture of independence.

Skyrise apartment, single, no kids, freelancer, so not going to a team, working from his home.

And then, you know, one of my best friends,

six months later, I see him in person.

And he's flown to America, been baptized, and tells me that for three or four months, he just couldn't get out of bed.

There was no meaning in his life.

And so now he's a

strongly Christian man.

And we're seeing this, especially with young men in particular.

We're seeing more and more of them turn to religion.

And I'm wondering what's going on there.

Yeah.

Let's stay on

young men for a while.

And this does not exclude young women, but for the sake of this conversation, I'm just going to block it over here and say, young men.

We want and need

to be relied on.

We want and need to be dependent on.

And a sheer, independent, individual lifestyle with nothing that you're responsible for outside of what you only need.

Nothing, no other gardens you have to tend to, career relationally, no other collective, communal.

Oh, thank you.

I needed that.

Who relies on us?

How much do we need to rely on others?

There's another question.

And I don't know that answer.

It'd be fun to discuss it.

How much do we need to be,

how much do we need to depend on others?

Self-reliance is at the top of my value system.

And I don't think it is.

contradictory to faith.

I actually think that free will and fate, again, are here.

As a believer, I believe that it's all been written at the same time.

I believe God's going, I need your hands on the wheel, man.

You're steering this, okay?

Don't just rely on fate.

Too many people doing that, man.

I've had my agnostic years where I was not a believer at all, fully in self-reliance.

It's on me, everything.

And

I think it was such a valuable few years

because I did need to call myself on some shit.

I did need to say the buck stops here with you, McConnell.

I did need to become a, quit becoming such a repeat offender.

You know, I was sinning, which means to miss the mark, have bad aim, literally what it comes from, an archery term.

To sin means to miss the mark.

When you think about it like that, it becomes more practical, especially for us, agnostics and stuff.

I was missing the the mark and

it was time for me.

I didn't want to keep forgiving myself on Sunday and then repeat and do the same shit again Monday, Tuesday, Friday, and then go, oh, now I can be forgiven.

I was like, no, man, forgive me, Father.

I know what I'm doing and I'm keep doing it.

Cut the shit, McConaughey.

Quit giving yourself that out, that parachute, even though you may have it.

Even though word says grace of God will forgive you.

Yeah,

you need to, I need to strong-arm myself, put my damn hands on the wheel, look in the mirror, and go, it's on you.

Because it is.

At the same time, when I came out of that, I was like, oh, those two aren't mutually exclusive, the self-reliance and belief.

I heard God applauding, going,

thank you.

I need more, more like you that go, yes, I'm responsible.

The choices I make today have to do with where I'll be tomorrow.

Yes, they have consequences.

My choices matter.

Thank you.

That's what I heard.

But it wasn't exclusive of having faith and belief again.

What caused that period of your life in your late 20s where you started to drift?

Because at that time you'd had your first success

as an actor.

I think I was living,

I gave myself the luxury of living that fully independent top of the pen house.

I got money.

I decided to go check in at the Chateau Marmont.

I lay down $120,000 tab and says, let me know when that's out.

Me and my dog.

A couple of years.

Bought a pair of leather pants and a motorcycle.

Told myself,

next two years, if you ever think you've had too many,

order another one.

Next two years, you ever go, oh, maybe I should have a single, order a double.

I exercised it in as healthy a way as I could, but I was sheerly independent and I did not, I was swimming, I was transient.

It was fun, but when every day is a Saturday and every night's a Saturday night, I started looking for a little,

I need to break a sweat here.

I need, where's the resistance?

Where's my, I need my Monday morning?

Literally, and I need it here and I need it faith, faith-wise.

Did the loss of your father around

in your 20s have a big impact on this sort of unanchoring?

No, the loss of the father

dropped the anchor deeper and got more secure.

That was 92.

That was five days into shooting my first film, Days Confused.

The loss of him,

one, which was, I didn't think he could die.

Obviously, he could, and he did.

And it was, uh,

took my mother to kill him, as you know from the story.

They made love on a Monday morning.

He had a heart attack.

That's a bad way to go.

I mean,

he called it.

He told me, my brothers, boys, when I'm going to go, when I go, I'm going to be making love to your mother.

And damn it if he didn't do it.

But him passing away

after the shock in the morning

really

woke me up

to go, oh.

You don't have that.

Talk to parachutes again.

You don't have that one

being in your life that has your back, that in my mind was above government, above religion, everything.

Oh, if I'm really in a pinch, dad's got my back.

You don't have that anymore, Matthew.

So all the things he taught you that you've kind of been acting like, it's time to become those

and put your ass on the line, me.

I remember that's around the time I carved into a tree.

In the middle of the night, I woke up and these words were just stuck.

And I went and I was like, I'd be less impressed and more involved.

And my father passing on, the world got flat.

Things that I revered, wow, mortal things that I revered, people, places, all of a sudden,

my eye got level.

Things that I was patronizing and condescending and looking down my nose at

rose up to eye level.

And I was like, time to become a man.

Walk forward, peripheral vision.

Get it.

Own yourself.

Walk forward with more courage and start becoming the man you want to be instead of acting like it and putting it off.

Be less impressed and more involved.

More involved.

Yeah.

What did you mean by that?

And where did that come from?

It came from, we grew up hardcore on gratitude.

I'm a very thankful guy.

And being thankful and having gratitude is very important.

But you can't stop there because

too much just, oh, I'm so happy to be here.

You're so impressed to be here.

Thank you for having me, which we should have.

But if you live only there,

I can't even, we can't be present and be involved in whatever we're doing and do it as well as we want to do it.

You got to go, nope, thank you for letting me be here.

And I'm supposed to be here.

Now let's go.

If I'm even talking to you, if I'm here going, man, I'm so happy to be here.

If I'm just happy to be here

and go no further than that, I can't have, we can't have this conversation.

I'm not, I'm not that, I won't be there yet.

I can't be grounded enough to have, have it right here.

I'd be like, I'd anticipate my thoughts.

I'd, you know, say something that may is only the pretty stuff and not the ugly stuff or, oh, I don't want to be mean.

So to be involved allowed me to be more honest and have more courage.

When we're involved, we're more honest and have more courage to do what we're fashioned to do, how we're fashioned to do it.

But if we're only impressed, you know, and I've had these moments, when I met the Cohen brothers, they were my favorite directors.

I revered them.

I had dinner with them.

I blew it.

And I fumbled over my web.

damn it.

Jet back, but I was nervous.

I was so happy to be there.

I was so impressed to be sitting down with the Cohen brothers and not involved enough to sit there and have a conversation.

And I look back that night and I go, that's why they never cast me at anything.

I blew it that night.

And I've since seen them.

And I was like, that night we met, I want to do over.

Cohen brothers, if you're out there, I want to do over.

This is really transferable advice to both me as a podcaster, because I get to meet so many of the people that I've admired for so long, especially being a kid from the UK, but also generally for people just going to job interviews and trying out for things that you really can inadvertently like lower your perceived value just by being impressed and not involved.

Probably won't get hired that way either.

Yeah.

What's the hiring person want to see?

Someone who's respectful.

But if you hold them in reverence, they're like,

you know, there's so many ways to say it.

I don't need my ass kissed, man.

I want to hear it.

I want to meet you.

I want, I want, don't agree with me on everything.

You know, I want to hear you.

Ah, ah, but back.

And they had a reason behind it.

They weren't, you know, being negative or cynical or they weren't just trying to be contra contrarious reasons.

They actually had thought about that.

It was challenging.

Look at that.

Relationships.

Girls, guys.

What do we like?

Not the one that's like, yeah, whatever you want to do.

When someone goes like, oh, how about this?

I got this other idea.

Ooh.

Ooh.

Interesting.

You just reminded me of a guy I interviewed the other day called Jonah.

And Jonah, at the very end of the call, young guy, turned around to me and said, you know, by the way, I think you should completely change this particular company who was going to be joining of mine, completely change the branding.

I don't think it's good enough.

And I paused and I said to him, I'll never forget what I said.

I said, I want to say two things to you, Jonah.

First, I jokingly went, how dare you?

And secondly, that is the best thing you have said in the last hour.

Because for me, he did exactly what you did.

He wasn't impressed.

He was involved.

And he challenged, he told me that basically our entire brand for this particular company needed to be changed and redone.

So, like, how dare you?

And that is the best thing you have said.

Because it did exactly what you said.

It made me think, oh, okay, interesting.

This is who he is.

And he's a value.

Yay.

Because people that are impressed are much less value than those

that are able to wealth themselves.

Picture him.

I mean, this picture said a lot to me.

Maybe it's just the way that you're all gathered around.

Oh, yeah.

I know this picture.

So that's my oldest brother, Rooster on the right.

That's Pat.

Rooster's 10-year-old birthday present.

Adopted.

Wanted to go meet his parents one time when he was 17.

Check his dad's hairline.

That's me

reverentially looking down on my father, who's holding court at the bar in the house, Quail Valley, Houston, Texas.

Looks like he just got off the golf course.

I have a t-shirt on.

They have golf shirts on.

Looks like I didn't play with them at that time.

But there were stories probably going on right there about something that they had just experienced.

And I'm probably a little,

I'm trying to, you know, I'm probably, this conversation is probably more between those two.

And I'm going, like, oh, I wish I was there in the stories, which only happened for me once I turned 18.

I had some stories before them, but that's what that look at the reverence with which I'm

looking on

to my dad.

And he was old, he was old in court.

He was a ham man.

Him and him and Rooster were best friends.

Pat worked for him.

I got to have a couple years with him before I went to

Australia or a year with him.

I remember I had more than a

full summer with him, which later on I found out

was

their second divorce.

I didn't know it was.

I thought mom was on an extended vacation in Florida.

So he and I had a summer where we got to hang out.

And I got a story in Green Lights about a night when I jumped the bouncer.

A big rite of passage.

To defend him.

Do you miss him?

Yeah, I miss him

creatively the most because he, he, I found out later, and I didn't know he was doing this.

Like, I found out later in life years after he passed away, we found all these old paintings in the garage, and we found this pottery that he made.

And he loved, he had collected art, and he loved charcoal paintings and pencil black and whites i had no idea

he practiced art or

or liked it and so

when i'm reading a script or i'm interested in doing a film i still think ah i would love to i would love to have sent this to dad and go what do you think and talked about hey you know anybody like this what do you think of this character what do you think of the scenario hey you know any men like this because i base a lot of my characters off of people that i met through him i based a whole lot.

There's been many characters that are based on parts of my brother Pat, who was my hero growing up.

And there's a lot of characters I've met through my older brother Rooster, but all those came through dad.

And I loved, I miss having those.

I wish I could have had those conversations with him.

He would have loved

the other night, we're at Toronto Film Festival, Premier and Lost Bus.

My mom was in it.

She's 93.

My little, my son's in it.

That could have been four.

He would have come to Santa Fe with mom.

You know, he didn't, mom wanted, mom wants to be on the stage.

Mom, every performance I've ever done, she's like, you did great, Matthew.

I see where you get it from.

All right.

Dad didn't want to be on the stage.

He could take the stage, but

he would have seen from the beginning me doing my thing from the front row and been like, there you go, buddy.

So I miss him as a creative partner and in sharing the declarations when you have a red carpet and hearing, what's your opinion on that?

Hey, watching movies with me?

We never watched movies.

I miss that.

In his hands, man.

He had these healing hands.

And we'd have been buddies by now, right?

I would have

philosophically, wherever we had our differences, he would have enjoyed the debates instead of looking at me at 16, going, Who the hell do you think you are?

Talking

bucking like that, which is what led him to go, You're a great debater.

I want to be the family lawyer.

But we'd have been buddies because at 18 was the freedom rite of passage.

That's when he goes,

If you ain't learned it by now, you ain't going to learn it.

So, we would have, I wouldn't have had to hear.

This is a time when I'm still hearing about the experiences of yesterday and last night,

yearning to one day be able to be there and be part of the stories.

And we did get a year together where we got to be part of the same stories, which meant so much to me.

But I would have had years of that.

Do you think he would have been surprised by the life he lives subsequently?

No.

My family's got an odd thing.

They aren't surprised by shit, man.

Especially any of my success.

I mean, my brothers hadn't even

seen all my movies.

If I invited them to the premiere in Toronto the other night, they'd have found every excuse they could not to go and wouldn't have come.

They don't disrespect or love any less for it.

It's just like, man, we know you, little brother.

There's something beautiful in that.

Do you remember these?

Yes.

You wrote this roughly around the same time in 92.

Roughly, actually, when I was born, funnily enough, I saw the date on the top and thought, I was a few days off after my birthday.

And again, you put fatherhood number one, but there's a series of other things on this list of your 10 goals in life, which you wrote in 1992.

As you reflect on those goals, do you wish you hadn't written any of them?

And is there anything else you wish you had written?

No,

I wouldn't change a thing about it.

10 goals in life.

Become a father.

Find and keep a woman for me.

Keep my relationship with God.

Chase my best self, be an egotistical

utilitarian, take more risks, stay close to mum and family, win an Oscar for best actor, look back and enjoy the view, just keep living.

I don't know what I'd add to that.

One of the things that you've talked a few times about is this idea of like you needing resistance.

Yeah, you've said it two or three times.

And we're going back to what it is to be a man and what it is to be a well-orientated, stable man.

Needing resistance.

Is that a goal to aim for?

Is that.

I think it's just a necessary necessity

for

having more than just

an individual

life

at the top of the high rise with money.

If that's, if you're successful, do that.

I mean, I'm supposing that, whether it's different words, your friend went to Christianity for a very similar reason.

It's like

a certain amount of guilt is very healthy.

It helps us,

keeps us, its boundaries.

Boundaries.

Without any shame, without any embarrassment, without any guilt.

Tell me it's all just four-dimensional.

Where's the form?

Where's the art?

It's four-dimensional.

It has no form.

You got to have gravity to have form.

You got to have some resistance to have some form.

You got to push off of something to go somewhere.

You got to be, it's very hard when you're just floating and with no gravity and no resistance to actually pursue a North Star.

You have no leverage.

You're floating.

Where's the art?

Probably more anarchy than art.

So resistance gives form.

Heard a great artist say this: limitations

reveal style.

Resistance.

Something to go, or else it's like in green lights.

If life's just nothing but green lights, if you got no yellows and reds, no reasons to pause or crises that stop you, resistance?

What do you just go in circles?

Do you run out of gas and get dizzy?

I don't see that.

How do we evolve or devolve

without resistance?

Now, picking the right resistance

is an art in itself.

It's challenging.

I've been clumsy with it in my life,

especially when I got famous and got success.

Man, enough people telling me I love you and the caviar and the champagne.

I was like,

what the shit?

Why me?

I don't deserve any of this.

What did I do?

And

I'd fuck things up on purpose just to say like, I tripped myself running downhill downhill so I could bloody my own nose and go, oh, now I can feel.

Okay.

Okay.

Now my heels are on the ground.

I need, it's clumsy.

So

I don't think we need the kind of resistance that we create that

can harm us or get in our way for getting in our way's sake because I've come to learn.

I think we all are.

No, when things are going really well, resistance is going to come.

If you stay, if you stay with, if you have any ambition, resistance is going to come.

We often see resistance as a form of failure and something that we should endeavor to avoid.

You think about the avoidance of people building families or even,

you know, many people consider that we're living in a bit of a comfort crisis.

This is slightly a different sort of analogy, but most of the diseases that we have today, whether they're diseases of, I don't know, the mind, like, you know, people feeling lonely and isolated, or physical diseases, 80% of Americans getting back pain, but no one in the Hadza tribe in Africa getting back pain.

They're all a consequence of us continually choosing comfort,

which is a short-term friend but long-term enemy.

And the resistance, I think, is

something increasingly we can choose, opt out of.

It's a choice, too.

Let me, can I hit a little poem that's on this subject?

It's called Tips Included.

And I wrote this based on participation trophies,

entitlement.

How too much of something can be just as harmful is not enough.

How we all need good fortune, good fate, and charity sometimes, but we shouldn't rely on that.

Okay?

Called tips included.

When extra credit's included, credit doesn't get us due.

When more gives us less, the exchange rate's gone askew.

When amnesty is offered, going into the crime, we're more bound to commit it.

Because there is no fine.

We start playing to tie instead of going for the win when participation is the trophy for every cow in the pen.

If I stay on the porch because you picked up the slack, when you look over your shoulder, I can't have your back.

If there is no curfew, we're going to stay out all night.

No tab at our bar, we're going to get drunk and start a fight.

All these long lenses got us losing our sight.

You keep lifting it for me, I'm going to lose all my might.

When a four-star duty suits a six-star rate,

we take our hands off the wheel and rely on fate.

Eating all we can at the all-we can eat buffet gives us a 3.8 education and a 4.2 GPA.

We steal from ourselves and get away with the scam.

What's the measure of merit with less give a damn?

Hmm, these unlimited options sure have me confused while all the conveniences are keeping me properly lubed.

In this red light district with the whore of inflation, the ROI's math don't pay for vacation.

So let's just admit it, this extra credit's quite a fluff.

Because when the tip's included, the service will suffer.

But it's about that, the conveniences, the long lenses, everything's like, oh, and we've out-convenienced ourselves.

What's AI going to do to us?

Talk about convenience.

How much, and I want to keep hearing studies.

I wonder if you have an opinion on this.

How much

of you coming up with an idea and then writing and rewriting it, thinking about it?

No, no, no, no, that's not our X word.

Oh, no, this is what I really mean and how to get it done.

How much of that is really valuable to get it beyond just an intellectual idea, more valuable than just going,

ah, there it is.

Because what comes out of AI, incredibly impressive.

My hunch is that, yeah, we can use it for like

signpost to help us.

Oh, that's good.

Thank you for helping me organize.

But there's a value to us going through the sweat equity of learning something.

How do you feel about it?

I mean, exactly what you've said, but the studies that have just come out using different things like ChatGPT have actually proven what you've just said to be true.

That when people use AI to produce a piece of work, not only can't they recall what they've made, but but they also start speaking in language more like the AI.

So they start to lose their own voice.

But I mean, yeah, I mean, for through history, people like Richard Freeman, the physicist, has said the best way to learn something is to learn it and then to go through the pain of writing it, condensing it down to a simple truth, like you do so often in your new book, Poems and Prayers, and then sharing it with the world and then getting the feedback.

And if the world understood it like you meant it, like that poem you just shared,

you understand it.

That's evidence that you get it.

Right.

So I think AI is going to be great for me saying something to you, but not learning something myself.

And I think if you know, if you want to defend creativity and innovation and the ability to think,

you actually have a huge opportunity, which is to go left when everyone's going right.

Right.

And it goes to what you were saying there.

You were talking about be careful when you

mess with incentives.

Like be careful when you choose.

the easier road.

Be careful of the unintended consequences.

And AI is a prime example of an unintended consequence of you taking the easier road today.

Yeah.

And, you know, I just actually made a video about this, funnily enough, just warning my audience about

when something appears to be like a short-term friend, it's usually a long-term enemy.

Like when, you know, when you choose easy today, you choose hard tomorrow.

And

there's always a trade-off.

Right.

But you think if you choose hard today,

you usually get easy tomorrow?

I mean, there's obviously a ton of nuance to this, but

in many contexts, yes.

So, for example, when I think of it, I was thinking of my father, my father would never have,

he would avoid conflict at all costs.

He would avoid the difficult conversation.

And when I zoom out over the decades of his life and marriage, I go, man, that costs you big time.

You caught up with him.

Oh, my God.

And me inverting that in my own life and continually just confronting it head on has had the complete opposite effect.

You never,

you know, like when you were talking about being a young man and making that decision because you had that voice in your head saying, law might not be my thing.

And you made that phone call to your father.

Yeah.

Like what I hear you did is like you realigned yourself to you.

Now, if you hadn't made that call, And you had let a couple more of those bad habits, you would have got to 40 and been like, who the fuck is this guy?

What is this life?

You would have looked around and said, who is she?

Who are they?

What is this job?

And that's that course correction that I think it requires you to do the slightly harder thing today.

What do you think?

I agree with you.

That's the resistance to you choosing, you know,

look,

I still got to learn how to take a vacation

because,

you know,

there's some times when the wind's at our back

and we've earned it.

There's some times when it's easy to street, and it's like,

yeah, don't interrupt this, man.

This is a sweet ass song.

Trust that the hill's coming.

Again, don't be so impressed with this.

And don't,

what I have to do is fall into when things are going really well.

I go, ah, there it is.

That's the mean.

No, it's not.

Not with any ambition, it's not.

Or not with life happening, it's not.

But my hunch, I want to see what you think about this theory, is

reality.

Shoot for an A and make a C is rather better than shooting for a C and making an F.

Now,

so go for perfection.

Reality always comes in under it.

But in that moment, when you see the inevitable reality, the outcome, the result, how quickly can we go,

okay, but

I got so much more out of it, the job, the person, myself, because I went for perfection

than if I'd have just gone for, no, dude, just, I mean, you know, just

pass class.

It's again, that little owner's renters mentality.

But what can be hard for me sometimes is it takes, it can take me too long to, to, to come down from when, oh, it didn't hit perfection.

And maybe it takes me a week to go, dude, now do you finally realize that, of course, you weren't going to get perfection, but you got so much more out of it because you went for perfection.

Yeah.

So be pleased with reality because you got a, you got a good grade on it, man.

That war, that was, that was good.

That piece of art wouldn't have been that true.

If you wouldn't have been, I don't know, like I say this all the time, and I never mean this in a, in a, in a, in a disrespectful way.

I've never done a movie or a performance that lived up to what I

thought it could be.

Because I'm thinking it can be divine.

It comes out, maybe majorly inspiring, may speak to masses.

May even have some magic to it, but I don't even think it's divine.

That's resist.

That's tension.

That's unclosed gap.

And I think everything that's ever been built that's great or creatively brilliant has come from someone who has a big, a big expectation gap.

And of course, the very definition of that, you're never going to close it.

And actually, probably the reason you then are motivated to move to the next thing and pursue divine again is because it wasn't divine last time.

Maybe there's still something left on the table and that

means you never arrive.

Right.

You talk about arriving a lot in the poems and prayers as well.

I also was reflecting on your mother's words where she, at a very young age to you, positioned life as a dichotomy of being humble, but like know that you're the shit.

And all those things you went through.

And it's the same thing.

It's like strive for

perfection, but also know that nothing will ever get there.

And can you be okay with that dissonance?

Right.

And there's a moment.

And I think it's one of the arts of living is if you are going to prescribe to go shoot shoot for perfection, there's that moment when reality comes in, when you had to declare, and the cards speak for themselves, and it's under.

But you, because you oversaw it,

this theory I got called oversee.

Because you oversee and expect the best, this divinity out of people and art and of yourself.

And then it always comes in under.

How quickly can you go, ah,

nice reality?

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Can I ask you a question about that?

Then, if you had aimed for something to be perfect and then it delivered itself as perfect, exactly how you had imagined, if at all possible,

would that have made you happy?

Would you have been I don't know,

you're right.

Um,

what have made you scared both, probably

because

look, I've had moments.

Let me let me let me tell you one.

Uh,

in in In Africa, I'm in Mali, Africa.

Doggone country.

Me and my guy, who's a buddy now, Issa, were hiking from village to village in the Banjiagara.

Each village is 10 to 15 miles away.

I went over there, needing my anonymity under the name of David.

And I said I was a writer and a boxer.

Well, they called me Douda.

Anyway,

they didn't give Danbat the writing part, but they were very interested in the wrestling part.

So each village I would go to started to to catch up to me, like strong white men named Doda.

And they love to wrestle over there.

They love to wrestle.

It's kind of a form of entertainment.

The boys just walk up and start wrestling.

I get to this one village one night, Benji Matu,

and I'm laying there.

It's a 14-mile hike to get there.

I'm laying on the ground stretching.

The village is all kind of come up around.

They're talking and chattering.

And all of a sudden, I hear the shattering that's sort of at me.

I can just hear it.

And I look up and it sees two boys.

They're about 18.

And they're boom, boom, boom, popping at me.

And I can be like, and I know know enough in the tone I don't know what they're saying because they're speaking in Bombada I'm like are they talking shit to me and he goes yes he goes they uh um

they are the wrestlers of the village they say other they are the best wrestlers in the village and they are challenging you to wrestling match I was like oh they are like

well they sure are talking a lot I go

I don't know if they mean it.

Do y'all have this thing over here?

We have a thing in America where if someone talks too much, they really don't mean it.

He goes, yes, we have this.

We have this.

And just as that happens, you hear the crowd

scream.

And I look up and the two boys, bam, run off.

Why?

Because the real champion wrestler of the village, Michelle,

five foot nine, tree trunk legs, about 220, burlap bag wrapped with a rope around his waist, he showed up.

He doesn't say a word.

He just stands over me, points to me, points to himself, and points over here.

I look over where he's pointing, and there's a big dirt pit.

My heart starts racing.

There's the challenge.

As my heart's beating, going, oh, no,

I start to get up.

Because as this ear is saying, oh, no, I'm hearing in this ear.

If you don't, you will regret this for the rest of your life.

You've got to go do it.

This will at least be a great story to tell.

So I get up.

Village goes crazy.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, about 80 people have gathered now.

The chief comes out.

I'm standing in the middle of the pit going, I'm not sure how this is supposed to go.

What are the rules?

Chief puts his hands on our heads.

Michelle grabs me by the waist, mimics me.

I grab him by the waist.

Then he burrows his forehead down into my clavicle here, and I burrow mine into his.

So now we're like two bulls like this.

And the chief puts his hands on our head and then raises them and goes, stop.

And the crowd goes wild.

Ding, ding is what thought meant.

So we start going around, man, and I'm thinking, okay, I'd get some leverage on this guy.

His legs are like tree trunks.

I'm like, oh, I ain't getting him down low.

So we're scrapping, grappling, boom.

And I get him over, bam, flip him on his back.

He flips me back over.

I backflip him off my back at somersault.

And he comes in, gets me in a freaking leg lock that I can barely breathe.

Thumb, almost got to tap out from.

I shimmy at that thing.

All of a sudden, Chief comes in, separates us.

I'm hyperventilating, man.

Crowd's going crazy.

He's got to split.

Michelle on this side, me on this side.

These talismans that were in my beard, two of them got torn out during the wrestling match.

I've got blood running down me here.

My knees are bleeding.

My ankles are bleeding.

I'm hyperventilated and covered in sweat.

I look over at Michelle, who's just staring at me, going,

barely a glisten on him.

And that's when the chief goes,

and I go, oh, shit.

Here we go.

Boom, boom, boom.

Grabs my waist, bop, bop, burrows his head.

I burrow my head.

We're off.

Goes around again.

Pretty damn good match.

Strong.

I flipped him.

He pinned me.

We got up, got moving.

All of a sudden, Chief comes in, separates us.

Raises both our hands.

The crowd goes crazy.

As soon as he lows our hands, Michelle runs off.

Everyone sees him go, and they come in and grab me and put me on the shoulders.

Dowed, dowed, dowed.

I go over.

Now I'm a big man in the village.

Which means they give me the best chair that has the least broken sort of, you know,

straw on the seat, which means the village boy finds me the biggest chicken and plucks it, and they cook it for dinner for me, which means they take me to the cleanest spot in the river.

And I come back that night.

We eat.

I get on the roof of the hut.

What a magical day.

I lay back.

I see the southern cross for the first time in the sky.

Like it was a neon light on a black backdrop.

It was, you could not see it.

It was so bright, staring me right in the face.

I laid there.

30 minutes, saw 29 shooting stars.

I'm going,

I might have a direct line.

I might be the chosen one.

Wow.

Just as I'm about to shut my eyes, I got a little

in my throat.

So I sit up.

Go to spit out over the, off into the, off the top of the roof.

Lugie plastered to my face.

I forgot I had put my mosquito net on.

And I was like, oh, perfect.

Just when I was thinking, I might have the direct line.

I just spit a Lugie in my own face.

And there became the humor.

Now, to finish off that story, the next morning, when I left the village, remember Michelle who ran away?

I got to the edge of the village about to make the 14 mile walk to the next village.

And there behind the first tree, past off the property, popped out Michelle.

Not a word.

Looked at me, bowed, grabbed my hand.

He walked me the 14 miles to the next village, got to the village border, the next tribe, bowed, and walked home.

I went back unannounced six years later.

Did the same trip, ran into the same people.

The kids had grown six years older, everybody.

We get to Benjiamatu.

There's Michelle.

He's had five kids and he broke his hip.

So he's got a limp.

Right?

So we all agree, not another wrestling match.

We have a great dinner that night.

We talk, we tell stories.

They're speaking Bombada.

I'm speaking English, but we're just understanding each other's sort of charades now.

Get up the next morning.

We go to leave.

Behind that same tree,

out pops Michelle.

bows reaches out his hand holds my hand and 14 miles

to the next village

stop bows turn around

I ask

Issa back then the first time in 99 after that night when I wrestled Michelle and he walked me the first time I got there I was like what tell me about like what happened last night.

I do all right.

He goes, Oh, no, no, no, no, doubt.

You do very well.

He said,

When you accept the challenge, that is when you were big men in this tribe.

It was not about the win or the lose.

You accept the challenge, and then you wrestle Michelle, who's not only champion of this village, but of this village and tree village back.

And you handle Michelle.

Handled was the word.

I wouldn't want to lose this.

Handled.

He goes,

you come back.

We make money.

That's what he told me then.

And I went back six years later and had that experience.

And that experience with Michelle, the respect we had, he took, he walked me, broke nip and all, 14 miles to the next village.

You accept the challenge.

You accept the challenge.

That is when when you are a big man in this village.

Because I was like, they put me on the shoulders, man.

What was it?

He was like, oh, you are a big man when you accept the challenge.

He said, whole village think Michelle is going to have strong white men named Dauda on back in 10 seconds.

Over.

But you handled Michelle.

Not win or lose.

Handled.

But you were a big man when you accepted the challenge.

Beautiful.

And then he's there six years later and walks me the same way?

I mean,

I think your question was on, you know, when we

know or how confident when we're feeling like we're on the right path, which that was a time when I thought I was so much, I was like, I think I might be there.

You know, a loogie in my face.

And that to me was God going,

you're doing good, but not that good, bud.

There's so many young men that are struggling.

When I looked at the stats around suicidal ideation and suicidality, the biggest killer of men under, I think, the age of 45 is themselves.

And it's funny, you said earlier on about

to be a young man, you have to feel like someone depends on you.

And it reminded me of someone on the show that told me when they analyzed suicide letters, the prevailing sentiment across all of these suicide letters, I think it was an Australian study, was feeling like

people didn't need you, or even worse, they were better off without you.

In suicide letters from men, Japanese, almost.

And it goes, it was when so when you said earlier that this, you know, we need someone to depend upon us, it made me think about that.

And then you talked about challenge.

We need a resistance and challenge to aim for.

And life is removing that challenge.

It's removing the.

Yeah, what are the new challenges?

Being on the internet, TikTok,

social, like social, social media.

So if those challenges, though,

for now, and I'm going to just paraphrase this.

If those challenges may not be the ones that, and we hopefully we'll find ways that they can actually pay us back in a qualitative way,

don't we need a challenge that's immortal?

Like

belief in God or belief in our better self and how we are as a human and our own character and our own dignity and our relationships.

in tomorrow, in our past, in our kids, that are not measured and paid for with a local mortal currency, but are a pursuit that

keep us having qualitative and valuable experiences that mean something to us and give our life meaning while we're doing whatever else we're doing in life that may not be giving us the meaning or making us feel

I want to ask you something because as I started to read poems and prayers, you sort of confront a lot of my previous rebuttals to faith, which I imagine a lot of young people have, which is around like the science of it.

Like, what about the science?

What about proof and evidence?

Yeah.

You confront this head on.

And how do you think about that?

Because you're someone that understands the science and the studies and all those kinds of things.

I think, one, I think science is the practical pursuit of God.

And like we're talking about perfection, it ain't either going to get there.

But bravo for it.

I believe God loves a scientist.

I believe he does.

Going, thank you.

Again, like hands on the wheel.

Thank you for being agnostic and going, you can only believe in your science.

Thank you.

You're churning your way towards me.

I'm not going to get here, but thank you for that pursuit, that independence to bring up the word again.

It's,

I don't know.

That's the point.

I can't conclude.

Those are nouns.

Belief is a verb.

Faith is a verb.

in God or any of those other things that we were talking about, our better selves, each other.

Those are...

a scientist doesn't necessarily doubt.

A scientist just says, I can't believe in something that until it's proven.

And if it's unproven, Minecraft says I cannot believe.

I believe that's what a scientist looks at it.

So I cannot believe in,

or maybe it is, I must doubt that which cannot be proven.

I understand that.

That does not, again, contradict a scientist, or if that's your vocation, if that is your philosophy and your life creed of how you behave and believe, that does not contradict

belief

in God, even though you can't conclude that God exists.

I know plenty of scientists that are also believers.

I don't know.

You know,

it's, I got a poem in here, and this is not a lowest common denominator, but also just

another practical way

of

thinking about it.

If you're like, man,

I'm not for it.

Let's just go practical for a second.

Heaven or not,

tomorrow is not today's measurement when the misery is bad enough.

To the suffering, consideration is a privilege.

And that's part of what faith and religion are for.

To help those in misery hang on to a hope that will most likely not be served them in this life.

To sell them belief and faith that they will be served in the next.

And what if there's nothing there, man?

What if there's nothing to hope for?

No next.

Either way, in misery, here, or without a heaven there,

not having any hope or faith in anything is a certain way to remain where you are forever.

But if you can find something that can keep you going,

something no matter how small, to look forward to and continually have faith in and chase,

well,

then your life here

will be better than it is now,

heaven or not.

It's not an argument for faith.

It is saying, though, what I think is true, what I believe is true, is that to

pursue

that divinity, even if you don't believe in the author,

it's not anonymous.

But if you say, no, when you say that's God, I don't believe in that author, it's fine, okay.

Find principles and ways of living and approaching life, yourself, others, others,

your neighbor and self.

There's call them ethics, whatever, morals, whatever you want to call them, paradigms and sort of law markers out there.

That's going to help in this life,

now

get you out of the rut.

That's what the science and the studies show: that people that

do have a faith are happier, healthier.

And people can argue as to why that is, you know.

Hey, that's what I'm

I want to try to be clear in this, that I'm not on, I'm not trying to convert people to go.

No, you should believe in God.

There's plenty of enough to go.

I get it with religion that excludes a certain amount of people that I cannot go there.

I cannot go with, I cannot purchase the belief that some people of faith have, which is, well, if you don't believe Jesus is the only Son of God and that's it, then you're going to hell.

I got too many friends, a lot of them over there in Mali and around the whole world.

I'm like going, I can't go as far to believe that they're all going to hell, uh-uh, if there even is one.

But it's when religion has become exclusionary along the way that let's remember we bastardized it.

You know, religion comes from, the word?

You know, I love, like I talked about sin earlier to miss the mark.

Religion is from the Latin root re legare.

Ligare means to bind together.

Re means

again.

Religion is about restoration.

Got a bunch of spiritual friends who say they're not religious, and know what they're telling me is they want unity.

That's what religion means.

We bastardized it along the way.

We made it a business.

I don't believe that the original creators of religion and Muhammad and Jesus and God are going, yeah, yeah, that's fine.

No, there's even stories in the Bible about going, no, that ain't fine.

But, so we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I just pose the question to us to say,

maybe it's not religion we're mad at.

Maybe we need to restore what that means, restore its original meaning and live that way instead of just accepting what it's become in so many places, in so many ways.

Poems and prayers come to me because I started getting

a little cynical myself.

I started to,

you know, default, objectify.

Found myself objectifying people, kind of looking down my nose at them upon hello, thinking, ah, they're probably not going to make the cut at what they do

without any reason to be thinking that way.

I started looking and listening to the news and leadership and I'm going,

why, wait a minute.

Now, so we're saying

if success

is the key, if success is the measurement, and you can get it by lying, cheating, and stealing, and still be rewarded the gold medal.

That's what's happening.

Are we ready to say that's okay?

Are we ready to say that's just how it is?

We have leaders in positions now that are saying,

yeah, just win.

Just win, just succeed.

But yeah, I don't care how you get there.

You did it.

Congratulations.

Come to the front of the line.

So, what are the ethics?

I don't know.

What did the winner do?

Well, but they,

wait, what about what about rules?

Oh, yeah, by the way, the rules, if you follow them, you're a sucker.

I

started to find myself going, oh, wait a minute.

I'm not ready to say.

That's just how it is.

I'm not ready to wave that white flag.

Are we

ready to wave that white flag and go?

We can see that's what it is because there's many reasons to do so.

And so I'm looking around at people and going, I'm not finding things people to believe in and i'm finding it harder to believe myself

one of the things that i i learned through your writing in poems and prayers but also in green lights is that although those people might get to the front of the queue and be awarded the medal

the medal it that you're awarded or the queue that you get to the front of might not actually give you

what you want.

And you start by sort of reframing success, which I think is a really important thing, especially for a young generation, especially for men who are, you know, the first to want to get to the top of the pyramid in certain pursuits in life.

And actually, from thinking about what your goal was of being a father and how that's a lost pursuit, if you look at the amount of people that are having children, and

I think that's a big question.

And actually, that's what your writing does for me.

It really confronts me in a way to go, okay, you can get to the top of the...

the pile or you can get the gold medal, but be careful what that medal represents and a medal in what.

Right.

Relevant for what?

We all want to be relevant.

Okay, like relevant for what?

We want to succeed.

But when we succeed, do we act?

Is it worth it if we don't profit?

Yeah, you said, yeah.

You know what I mean?

If more,

we're trained to go the quantity

is the goal.

That's it.

Well, then if that's sacrificing quality

or value, what we actually value,

what are you really winning?

You're winning one of the Mortal games.

You know?

And mind you, I also think it's worth talking about, and I don't know the answers, is

I'm sitting over here in a privileged place to be able to say that.

Someone's in misery.

You want to talk to them about projecting and sacrificing today so you can have more tomorrow?

Those people are looking at you going, I'm trying to pay my rent, put food on the table, bro.

Lucky you, Matthew.

You get to talk about that.

I'm not saying, I'm not saying that I'm changing my mind, but I am conscious and I still need, I still have more to learn from talking with people that are going like, man, I'm no, I don't have the luxury to think about tomorrow.

The other thing that I, is particularly front of mind for me and has been for about three to six months now is just this idea of independence, which is increasingly being sold to people, whether it's be your own boss, more people are lonely than ever before, less people are choosing to have families than ever before.

This idea of independence might have failed us.

And like all of my friends that are most happy have the most dependence.

And my friends that are struggling now are in therapy, are having what I would describe as an existential crisis, have the most independence.

No one depends upon them, and they depend upon no one.

And the other sort of adjacent idea to this is: I'm writing this book at the moment called I Can't Find God, which is kind of a reflection of my own religious curiosity that maybe we do need to ladder up to something.

So, me, my family, my community, maybe the planet, then something transcendent, something higher.

And people that don't ladder up seem to be lost.

Yeah, if you go

from

who we are

and make the North Star

God or the proclivity to imitate and be more divine,

those things happen

naturally through the humility, through the courage, through the

sort of peace of mind, wrong or right, that, oh, this isn't all there is.

Let's play the immortal game.

So therefore, risks are much easier to take, you're much more courageous down here because you're like, I'm not looking forward to dying, but I ain't that afraid of it.

You know, that's that's a very life-affirming feeling to have where I think selfishness and selflessness are

embedded together in that place, you know, or humility and confidence are

hooking up.

You know, they're not this,

they're not even this.

I think they're they're that.

When

the idea of God or God, literally, or that pursuit of just being our more sacred and divine selves, well, there's a lot of power, I think, that comes.

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When your children come to you, Matthew, and ask you, they say, Dad, you know, I want to be a success in my life defined in whatever way I define it.

You've been able to climb to the very top of the mountain that you aim to climb in terms of your professional achievements.

Is there anything transferable?

You talked about hard work earlier.

that people might miss

when they see such a remarkable career.

Because I look at your career journey on paper and I go,

you did it but then you did it again and again and again and again and again and again and again at the very very highest level and i'm like is this was this natural talent was were you given something in your dna

and i know it's hard to sometimes sort of self-analyze but what is it what is that

So I think that,

and what I do try to say some version of this to my kids when we talk about their futures, is look, and I talk to a lot of young people about this.

If you

first, if you start with what do you have an innate ability to?

What's in your DNA?

You know, I wanted to play basketball for years.

I wanted to dunk.

And I had my DNA, bro.

I was never, I'm never going to dunk.

No matter how hard I worked at it, I was never going to dunk.

That's what I wanted to do.

So look at what do you have an innate ability for?

I wanted to be a wash redskin running back.

Too slow and not powerful enough.

Well, I didn't have the innate ability.

So what do you have the innate ability for?

And then what then are you willing to pursue an education for, work for, hustle for

that for which you have an innate ability for?

And

if we're going to talk about making a living,

is that which you have an innate ability for, and now I've educated yourself, your talent, to have a talent for, is that, and how can that be something that the world demands?

Because it's supply and demand.

Boy, if you can end up doing something you got an innate ability for, plus you become really good at it and you learn the craft and the world demands it and you can supply it,

there you go.

But

we don't always,

some of us have innate ability, but we're not willing to, we don't work for it.

We don't improve our skills.

We kind of rely on what we got, and it kind of comes in middle of the field.

And

sometimes

I don't have the ability for it, but I'm going to learn a new craft and I'm going to hustle at it.

And actually, when we get good at something, one kind of can start to go, oh, I didn't know I loved it.

I didn't like this anymore, but I like it now.

It starts to feel good to do over and over.

And you aimed at becoming a, you know, it says it in here.

It says,

winning Oscar for best actor, et cetera, et cetera.

you accomplish so many of these goals that you had, and then there comes this point in your life where you seem to step back from being this rom-com star.

And it's almost as if a dream you once had failed you, and you reorientate yourself once again to something

of more substance.

So

the decisions,

maybe to answer a little more than the last question, I've, when something's not feeling like I'm completely

in the pocket on it,

getting it on the screws, if it's, and also maybe I am, but it's not translating.

We talked about earlier art that translates, and you hear the same thing back.

You're like, ah, that's it.

That's the communication of good art.

Maybe I'm feeling like I'm busting my tail at something, but I put it out there and it just goes,

huh.

I don't know.

Sometimes it's bad timing.

Sometimes just I was chasing the wrong,

I was chasing up the wrong tree there at least maybe I chased it for me but no one else gave a damn that can that can happen

I've been

fortunate to if something's not sitting well in my

soul

even if I'm pulling it off and I'm like dude you're the wrong comm guy you are the you're the go-to guy man you're number one on the call you're the you took the baton from hugh grant and ran

they're you love doing they're fun geez they pay great great too.

I can line them up.

I was getting quantity, but I wasn't getting the quality.

I was like going, I kind of feel like I could do it tomorrow.

And I was like, oh, nothing wrong with that.

You've worked to get to that point to where you feel like you could do it tomorrow.

I was like, yeah, but I don't.

I need some resistance.

I want to find something that scares me.

Mind you, at that time,

I've fallen in love with Camilla and she's pregnant with her first child.

What's the thing I always want to be in life?

Father.

So my life is like,

oh yeah.

The roof is raised and the basement is lowered and the width is wider, man.

I'm feeling more, crying more, laughing louder, feeling more pain, all of it.

My emotions are, life is vital.

And I said, okay.

What I want to do is dramas, but Hollywood won't offer me one no matter how big of a pay cut I take.

So I said, all right, if I can't do what I want to do, I'm going to quit doing what I've been doing.

So chose to, boom, go to the ranch in Texas.

Camilla's pregnant.

Told my agent, no more rom-coms, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop.

Don't know how long that's going to last.

Made that decision with Camilla, and we said, look, you know, we're going to make this decision.

There's no telling how long we're going to go with that work.

But if we're making this decision, like Australia, it's non-negotiable.

We're not going back on it.

And you get offered a lot of money in that time.

Yeah, there's a great story.

So nothing comes in for months.

And I'm starting to think, like, oh my gosh, I might need to find, become a teacher, might need to go back to law school.

Got to find a new vocation.

I just wrote myself a one-way ticket out of Hollywood.

This offer comes in for this action comedy.

$8 million offer.

I read it and I said, no, thank you.

That's the stuff I'm not doing.

I come back with a $10 million offer.

I'm not reading that again.

No, thank you.

Come back at a $12 million offer.

Guys, tell him I said no thanks.

Come back at a $14.5 million offer.

I said,

let me read that again.

I read it again.

It's the same words that were in the $8 million offer that I said no to.

But it was better written.

It was funnier, man.

I could see myself in it.

This could be, I could make this work.

Anyway, I ultimately said no.

And I think,

in my theory, I don't have any proof of it, but I think that me saying no to that $14.5 million offer,

a year into me leaving and saying no,

more rom-coms, I think me doing that sent the message got around kind of through Hollywood, oh, McConaughey's not bluffing.

What the fuck is he up to?

Something about that was like, oh, he didn't just recede.

He's got a plan, but he's just, he stepped out of Hollywood.

He's He's turning up 14.5?

Oh, he's not rent.

He's not for rent.

Which

that's interesting.

Oh, maybe a little more attractive.

Well, you know, what'd be a who might be a novel?

Great idea for

this drama.

Thinking lawyer, for this

killer, Killer Joe, for Mudd, for Dallas Buyers Club, Magic Mike, True Detective,

Makana.

20 months after I stepped out, I didn't know how long it would go.

That's how long it went.

All of a sudden, those offers came in

and

I was off and I grabbed a hold of all of them I could and did them and love doing them.

And

yeah.

Would those have come if I'd have never stepped out?

I can not even kind of say maybe, no.

No.

They wouldn't have.

So interesting how success can become a prison.

It goes back to that sort of marginal, slow.

Yeah.

And then you had to do something drastic to realign.

Yeah.

Turn down $14.5 million, which...

And trust me, my my brothers were like most people going, What is your major malfunction, little brother?

You know?

But

I remembered how I felt that night when I had when it came to me and it settled and it came up, and I made the covenant and I

prayed and swore on it with Camilla.

And we said, That's the decision's made.

No matter how long this goes, we're not going to go back on the decision.

So a lot of these stories, I think, come out about endurance

in a way.

The Australian story, this story, or two, two that remind me of like, I could have pulled the parachute

sensibly

at any time.

After the first three months in Australia, if I tell you the details of that, you'd be like, dude, why didn't you come home?

After a year out of the business, maybe?

And my dad is just telling me, I haven't even heard your name in four months.

Shit.

Why go start a new job?

Just go back.

Those jobs are waiting for you.

The rom-com jobs you were doing, the waiting.

The through line for me as well is just

in these moments, you knew who you were and were not, which a lot of people don't.

And you have to kind of know who you are and are not in order to turn things down or to accept things that are for you, right?

I'm going to go one step previous to that.

I don't know if I can say

I knew who I was.

An easier place for us all to begin.

And I think what's more true for me is that these were times when I go,

I knew who I was not.

And I don't know what, I kind of know what I want to do,

roles that can challenge the vitality of my life, you know, stereotype.

We could say we call those a drama.

But

it wasn't like I had the script written.

This is the one I want to do, and no one let me do it.

You know what I mean?

So I just said no to that.

In Australia, I knew that I couldn't be the guy who goes,

I'm out of here, man.

Because I shook on it.

And I was having a sneaky suspicion that the longer this penance went on, the greater the gift would be on the other side.

Did I trick myself on that?

Probably.

Was I telling myself that here?

Was I posting that on my proverbial fridge?

and repeating it like a mantra.

Yes.

It took a while to get down into, no, I actually believe that to be true.

You have a good relationship with uncertainty, with not having the branch to swing to.

Perfectly.

I hope so.

My wife's out there.

If you're seeing this, she's probably like, he needs to work on his relationship with uncertainty.

At least in a professional context.

I mean.

Most people end up stuck because they just wait for 100% certainty about the escape plan or the next.

Well, maybe that's because

there are every role I've ever done, I went into it at some point and felt like I was 100% certain that this is going to be great.

And not all of them were great.

So I've been a part of things that had the best laid plans and turned out to be like, oh, shit.

That's all we do to that?

I've been part of things that had the best laid plans and turned out to be like, damn, all right.

I've been a part of things that were underfinanced and didn't seem to have the foundation, but boy, we turned them into something.

Dallas Buyers Club, $4.9 million in 25 days.

Shot that movie.

Quality on the screen for that much money

in that many days.

Jean-Marc, you know, the director, we turned it into that.

We turned it into that.

We went into it, but even that, that's another fun story.

That was never

real.

I just, we just said the producers and myself, once John Mark came on, the director, and the producers and mine, we got in a room and said,

we ought to just say we're doing this in October.

And so we left out of there and started telling me, yeah, doing it in October.

What, no money?

My agent was like, you keep saying you're doing it in October.

You're not doing it in October.

I was like, yes, we are.

Yes, we are.

Dude, there's no money.

you're not buying this yes we are just kept saying that other scripts were coming to me it's like you read this it's going when's it going october i'm not why i read it i'm not doing it i'm doing dallas fires dude you're not doing dallas buyers club there's no time there's not a date set there's no movie would you please read something for that time slot no because we're doing dallas fires club why were you so we just

we just kind of i'm not gonna what's the word we didn't manifest it we just didn't flinch don't have we didn't stutter and we were all in alliance and saying the same thing so all of a sudden people started believe it

has that proven to be really important to believe what you say and to say it with a conviction?

Because it goes back to the phone call with your father.

Yeah.

You didn't flinch.

Something seems to happen when you don't flinch.

Yeah, I mean,

it's different than fake it till you make it.

You know,

words are momentary.

Intent is momentous.

Amen.

On that?

Yeah.

Intent is momentous.

Yeah.

There's a

point here on that same thing, and I think it's where

I write that in response, pushing off of where I think sort of a woke canceled culture overcompensated, where we bam, hammered you for the word and didn't give the people to go.

Wait, do you understand my intent?

Intent is such a lost.

Especially.

Especially

with people who are ignorant and didn't know better.

I'm writing here about I wish more, not I don't want more crimes, but I wish more of the crimes were about from ignorance.

Because it's the ones,

it's the bad agents that are going, oh, I know

good from evil, and I'm done to do the evil.

Well, that son of a bitch, I'm sorry, maybe we do need to go in an alley and work it out.

But the ones could, I didn't, I didn't know that person needs some amnesty.

Go, well, okay.

Or given the chance to talk about it,

when

we've forgotten

how to say,

sorry, dude.

I didn't,

that's what I meant.

I did not know that's how you were going to, I didn't mean for it to land on you.

Like, that's not how I meant it.

Have we forgotten to do that?

And aren't we getting tooled by the lawyers in the world to say, just litigate it, dude?

So,

whoa, what happened to, hey, man, my bad.

Stuck my foot in my mouth, man.

I bogeyed.

Sorry.

Now,

if I come back and do it to you next week and the next week after,

shame on me.

Repeat offender, man.

You can forgive me, but don't trust me.

I need some reparations.

I got some work.

I need some rehab.

All right.

But my first job on talking about forgiveness and the words and intent, my first job, if I've done you wrong and I've come asking for forgiveness, you've opened,

if you're going to forgive me, you've opened it up first.

And if you forgive me

and you believe that I mean

I'm truly sorry,

I'm

do my best not to ever do that again.

If you believe that, and then you forgive me.

First order of business is for me

to change the behavior that I have so I don't have to come say sorry to you again.

That I think we miss sometimes.

Sometimes people people go, I'm sorry, forgiving.

Oh, cool.

We're even.

All right, back to it.

And all of a sudden, you're like, you did it again.

Dude,

you have a little rule.

I thought you were going to course correct.

You know, I've got to course correct.

The offender's the first order of business for the offender to go, I'm going to do what I can not to have to say.

I'm sorry to you again.

I think there's a more obvious incentive to misunderstand people now, especially when there's likes and follows and retweets and play.

Misunderstanding someone, there's huge incentive in that.

And I think maybe that's created a culture of that being the default is to trying to misunderstand you.

Trying to misunderstand.

That's interesting.

Because there's an incentive.

I think all human behavior can be tracked to incentives.

And that's not the resistance we're talking about.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

You know, that's

come on.

Trying to misunderstand people.

A real want to need it.

I think you're right.

I'm asking this out to the world and myself.

Trying to misunderstand, to be be controversial, what, to be.

It makes me significant.

Right, because you owned something and you.

Yeah.

So you trumped my gesture.

Yes.

What about?

What about?

Yeah.

It proves, you know, I'm almost piggybacking.

You talked about structure.

I'm pushing off you.

Right, right, right, right, right.

Dude,

we've got to compare before we contrast.

Double down on somebody's affirmation.

There's a point about make the point make the positives plural and the singulars negative.

Black, then you can block evil and the negative's path to prophecy.

If we can double down, I'm not saying be foolish and say there's no negatives in the world, there's no pain, there's no evil.

No, let's admit it's all out there and then choose to go.

I'm going to talk about bad shit in my past in the past tense

because that's going to block its path to prophecy.

positive things that are working, the truths in my past, I'm going to talk about them in the present and the future tense because we're going to keep that ball going.

That's going to be a verb.

Let's make those a verb.

What season of life are you in now, Matthew?

Season of life.

Well, the last eight years, I've really come to love fall.

I grew up, I was a summer guy.

No shirt, no shoes, bright lights, extrovert.

It's all good.

Everything.

Don't bitch about no shoes because somebody out there with no feet.

I've come to like fall because

I think I need,

I don't, I'm interested in so many

things

that my hunch is to not take on more campfires, but to keep putting logs on the fires that I've built.

And to do that, the clouds that come with fall

just nip ambition in the bud.

Just a little bit.

They put a little bit of a roof.

I kind of like, I'm not as big of a fan of the 30-foot vault ceiling right now.

I like that 10-footer, that eight-footer.

I feel ambitious looking laterally instead of, oh my God, the four-dimensionally.

I'm

looking for the dreams and the poems and the prayers

to become the reality.

And I like a little bit of shade.

Matthew, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're going to be leaving it for.

And the question that has been left for you is:

what is your greatest weakness?

What is your greatest strength?

Well, let me talk on this wall because a lot of times they seem to be the same damn thing.

A lot of times people are like, dude, your greatest asset is risk.

And I'm like,

I think that's what I got to work on more.

I think I need to be taking a lot more risks.

You think you need to be taking a lot more risks?

Yeah.

That'll surprise a lot of people.

Give me the the context there and the color.

I'm successful.

I got a home.

It's got a gate.

I got a security guard.

I got three kids.

I got a wife.

All right.

Secure this.

Keep that log on those fires going.

That's the main thing, man.

If you do that, if you do that, there's nothing better you can do.

Hang on a minute.

You can do that, but you still need to engage.

What are you going to become a live-in father?

No.

Kids need to see you go to work.

They need to come with you to go to work.

They need to see you and your mom going places without them.

Engage in the world.

Go find out some new things.

Learn some new things.

Whether that's the physical frontier or the mental frontier.

Take more risk there to learn.

As Mark Waters, director of Ghost Girlfriends Past, told me one time, oh, McConaughey, you're never wrong.

I was like, thank you.

He goes, but there's more than one way to be right.

One of my greatest assets is that when I am certain on something,

I can commit to it.

It can be an engine and a momentum to take me a long way.

At the same time,

I can leave unnecessary shrapnel with people I care about from my own certainty.

Because I'm so committed and obsessed with this truth that I've crossed that I can block out an alternative approach to it.

Because I don't have the confidence to go, oh yeah, let me see that.

Because I still think, oh, if I see that, I'm going to lose some of this.

And I'm still working on that.

It was so beautiful to read poems and prayers.

It was surprising and beautiful at the same time.

And I said to you before we started recording, it's one of the first times that I felt like I went somewhere else in a while.

And it's funny because it was three or four days ago that I read the first couple of poems and then I went back a couple of days later.

And I think in part because things had changed in my life in those couple of days,

the meaning of the poems were different.

The meanings of the prayers seemed to be entirely different.

You also have this incredible book, which has been one of the smash hit bestsellers of the last decade, Green Lights.

And I know that one of your good friends, Bill McRaven.

Yeah.

Wasn't Bill.

Admiral Bill McRaven.

I always make you call him Bill, but I always call him Admiral?

Yeah, Bill McRaven.

And he was somewhat part of the inspiration, or he inspired, or was the catalyst moment you seeing him speak?

It's a friendship that he and I have started to build.

And as

is

at a time when I was seeking out

male mentors.

After your dad had passed.

Well, this is more in the last five years,

six years, seven years.

I think I wrote that four years ago, something like that.

And

he

always took my call, always took time with me, always,

just without judgment, shared great wisdom with me.

And without even knowing he shared it, I think I've just, if you ever get a chance to speak with him and spend time,

he's really

got it going on.

He's got it.

He's really got a wonderful perspective.

Are you able to share what you were seeking guidance from him about?

No, the main thing I would keep private.

But then it was also, we talked about, you know,

fatherhood,

husbandry,

you know?

And he's got a great sense of humor.

I love that stuff, too.

And how, you know, making plans and seasons of our life and how much to rely on those and how much are they just like, no, that's just an old parable, man.

It doesn't really go like that.

You know what I mean?

And I'd give details, but I wouldn't, I feel like I might be speaking out of school if I did.

I actually, we reached out to Bill McCraven.

Oh, he did.

And he wrote this wonderful letter for you.

He said, Dear Matthew, I remember clearly the first time we met.

I'd been told that Matthew McConaughey was going to be in the audience at my talk.

I had long been a fan of your movies, but candidly, I wondered more about the man than the movie star.

The man I met that day, the person I've come to know over the past 10 years, has exceeded all my expectations.

You are as genuine as any person I know.

There are no heirs about you.

There is no pretense.

There is no Hollywood ego.

There is just McConaughey.

You treat everyone with respect.

I have watched you with your league of fans, and never once have you failed to shake a hand, give a hug, take a picture, and thank them for their kindness.

I have watched you on the sidelines with your beloved lookhorns.

When you are there, the entire Burnt Orange nation feels better than the game.

In victory, your enthusiasm is infectious, and in defeat, you are gracious and respectful, representing all that is good about the university and about Texas.

I have watched you give back to your school, teaching the next generation of actors, writers, and poets.

I have seen your work as the Minister of Culture, bringing fun and a Texas flair to everything you touch.

I've watched you after the tragedy in in Uvalde.

It tore your heart out.

And while others stood on the sidelines wondering how to deal with those unspeakable horrors, you headed straight to Washington.

Few people I know could have brought both Democrats and Republicans together to make a difference, but you did.

And then you stood in front of the entire nation and pleaded for sanity.

Through your compassion, your determination, and your love, you have truly made a difference in so, so many lives.

I have watched you with Camilla and your children.

You're as fine a father and a husband as any man I know.

Every child should be as lucky as your kids.

I know your mother is exceedingly proud of the man you have become.

Finally, I want to thank you for your friendship, your unwavering support, and for making my hometown of Austin some place special to live.

Take care.

Bill McCraven.

Wow.

Thank you, Bill.

That's something else.

You know,

I did speak to him

before I went to DC

after you balladed.

And just

the wisdom with

the context, the setting,

DC,

politics.

But also,

in that,

being aware and understanding those things,

go your line, man.

Go your line.

And

that's beautiful.

to hear, you know.

I did not know

that he that he

thought all those things about me, and that makes me feel good.

I look forward to giving him a hug over our next cup of coffee or sip of tequila, whatever it is.

Good man.

Good, good, good, good man, Bill McCrabin.

Thank you.

And everything he says in that letter is what I've had reflected to me by everybody you've met and known.

We've got some mutual contacts, and those words ring true.

And this is why I think you're a great role model for me, but also for young men like me who are aspiring to figure out all this stuff with all the modern temptations and

different paths we can pursue and all the options, more options than ever, and a

less clarity on why we should pursue resistance and family and faith and all the things described in this letter of the empathy, the grace and the kindness and the respect of others.

But you stand forth as an example for why all those things are the most important things.

And thank you for that, Matthew.

Thank you for being a role model to me and so many young men like me and so many people, not just men, like me.

And thank you for writing a brilliant book, Poems and Prayers, which everybody can go and get now.

And just like me, when I read it, it might just take you to somewhere else.

Somewhere else you might rather be, and somewhere else you need to go.

Thank you.

We're done.

Beautiful.