EMERGENCY DEBATE: They Lied About The Economy Recovering! Is A Financial Apocalypse Coming?

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Speaker 3 I'm sick of multi-millionaires telling kids who can't afford to turn the heating on you just need to be more entrepreneurial. It's sick, Dan.
It's sick.

Speaker 4 Well, your video where you talk about if you don't have a rich dad, you're screwed. Well, to me, if I had have come across your content at 19, 20 years old, I would have been screwed.

Speaker 3 My friends can't feed their kids, okay? If it was that easy, why is everybody not telling me?

Speaker 4 Tell me why people aren't doing it.

Speaker 2 It's because

Speaker 4 if you'd like to say one thing back on that

Speaker 2 Today's debate is fiery to say the least, but important nonetheless.

Speaker 2 As I sat down with two leading experts in wealth and entrepreneurship and the economy to discuss the state of the US, the state of the UK and the Western world.

Speaker 3 Do you think the reason the average Bitcoin-American are getting poorer is because they don't know how to create wealth?

Speaker 4 No, the reason people are getting poorer is because of big governments, record levels of taxes, an outdated schooling system, technology and remote working.

Speaker 3 You sure about that?

Speaker 2 How do you disagree with those opinions?

Speaker 3 Living standards are falling because of growing wealth inequality. If you allow the rich to get richer, they squeeze the middle class and the poor class out of things like housing.

Speaker 3 Let's cut tax on people who are working hard and let's raise tax on the richest and most powerful people in the world.

Speaker 4 That's an overly simplified view of things.

Speaker 4 We now have a thousand millionaires a month leaving, which means every ordinary person who pays 10 grand a year in tax will now have to pay 20 grand a year in tax.

Speaker 4 You end up cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Speaker 3 If we are a country that don't try and do things which are necessary because they are hard, then our kids will live in poverty.

Speaker 4 What do you want people to do?

Speaker 3 There's a lot of different ways. Buckle up.

Speaker 2 I find it incredibly fascinating that when we look at the back end of Spotify and Apple and our audio channels, the majority of people that watch this podcast haven't yet hit the follow button or the subscribe button, wherever you're listening to this.

Speaker 2 I would like to make a deal with you.

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Speaker 2 If you could do me that small favor and hit the follow button, wherever you're listening to this, that would mean the world to me. That is the only favor I will ever ask you.

Speaker 2 Thank you so much for your time.

Speaker 2 Gary. Daniel.

Speaker 2 Daniel, you've been on the show a few times before, so I want to start with Gary and understand a little bit about your backstory and who you are.

Speaker 2 And having been through the trading game and read and watched many, many of your videos over time, I have a sort of deep understanding of that.

Speaker 2 But for anyone that doesn't know you, can you give me a picture of the context that has brought you to where you are today, writing about the things you're writing about today, and running the YouTube channel and speaking to the subject matter that you're speaking about today?

Speaker 2 Take me right back and give me as much as you possibly can.

Speaker 3 Okay, so my name is Gary Stevenson. I was born in a place called Ilford, which is in outer East London.

Speaker 3 Quite a poor family, little terrace house by the railway, you know, playing football in the streets kind of stuff.

Speaker 3 Always very good at maths since I was a kid, very talented maths student.

Speaker 3 Eventually able to get into the London School of Economics, which is an extremely elite university, economics university in the centre of London, which is

Speaker 3 basically a kind of investment banking boot camp. Got a job as a trader, started working full-time as a short-term interest rates trader at Citibank in London in June 2008,

Speaker 3 when I was 21. Obviously, yeah, exactly.
That's just before the big credit crash, the big Lehman crisis. And I watched the Lehman crisis happen in front of my eyes.
I was...

Speaker 3 Short-term interest rate trading is basically like short-term loans. And during the credit crisis, what a credit crisis is, is nobody can borrow any money.

Speaker 3 So like short-term loans become really, really important.

Speaker 3 my desk which was like historically an unfashionable area of trading became like the center of the crisis well one of the centers of the crisis people started making tons of money um i was working with all these crazy people and you can imagine me like i turn up 21 years old and then like within three months like everyone around me is making a ton of money during the credit crisis but what really interested me was what happened after the crisis itself which was So we're betting on interest rates.

Speaker 3 Long story short, interest rates come down when the economy is weak and they go up when the economy is strong or when the economy is overheating from an inflation perspective.

Speaker 3 In 2008, all the interest rates go to zero. So suddenly our job is basically predicting and betting on when will those interest rates go back up, which is when will the economy recover.

Speaker 3 And this is super interesting, right? In 2008,

Speaker 3 Because all the interest rates went to zero so quickly, like before 2008, it's important to remember rates would move from like five and a half to five and a quarter.

Speaker 3 And then here in 2008, everywhere in the world slashing to zero. Bro, half a percent.
Exactly.

Speaker 3 And everybody, all the economists were like, wow, this is going to cause a massive recovery because they thought that interest rates were powerful.

Speaker 3 And everybody predicted that rates would come back up in 2009, which of course we now know they didn't. Then everybody predicted that rates would go up in 2010.
which we now know they didn't.

Speaker 3 And then at the beginning of 2011, everybody was predicting rates will definitely go up this year. And this to me was so interesting.

Speaker 3 So interesting interesting because I studied maths and economics at one of the best economics universities in the world. And now I'm working with these traders who are getting paid

Speaker 3 million pounds a year to predict the economy, to predict the interest rates. And everybody is wrong

Speaker 3 year after year after year. And this was,

Speaker 3 I was, it's so amazing to me for a couple of reasons. First of all, it's like, wow, like this is a big...
thing that we as a society should understand and like we're getting it wrong. But secondly,

Speaker 3 if all of the best guys in the world are getting this wrong then if i can figure this out i can make a ton of money here guy how much money did you make for citibank at the age of 24 years old that year so that year 2011 i put this big bet on that it would get worse forever and i was citibank's most profitable trader in the world that year and i made them just over 35 million dollars You made them 35 million dollars.

Speaker 2 You eventually decide to leave Citibank. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Why?

Speaker 3 I mean, I think that's an interesting question, right? You know, in the sense that I've just explained to you what happened, which is

Speaker 3 I made a ton of money by betting on the collapse of Western society.

Speaker 3 I did it in 2011. I did it again in 2012.

Speaker 3 I would prefer for it not to collapse, Stephen.

Speaker 3 And I'm trying to stop it from collapsing.

Speaker 2 When you say it collapsing, what exactly are you referring to that you you don't want to collapse

Speaker 2 so you you born in botswana right yeah you still have family there um i've got family in nigeria which is where my my family are from i was born in botswana because we were visiting there but okay family in africa go to nigeria much no i've got a home in cape town in south africa so i see that it's a great place if you want to see inequality i think there is

Speaker 3 a naivety in in this country, in places like the US, that the kind of inequality, the kind of broad poverty that you see in places like South Africa, in places like Nigeria, in places like India, can't happen here.

Speaker 3 It will happen here. That is the future of this country.
That is the future of the US. And I'm not just saying that, I'm betting on it.

Speaker 3 And I've been betting on it for 15 years and I've been right for 15 years. That is what I'm trying to avoid.

Speaker 2 Daniel,

Speaker 2 where do you come from?

Speaker 4 Yeah, so I grew up in Australia and I was born to low-income family. I grew up in a place that had 24% unemployment.

Speaker 4 Pretty much the only jobs or opportunities around me were things like the trades, building, construction, pest control,

Speaker 4 hospitality and tourism.

Speaker 4 So at 14, I got a job at McDonald's and then I got a job in a bar and Pizza Hut delivery driving. And I discover entrepreneurship.

Speaker 4 So I discover books about entrepreneurship and I discover that some people make millions similar to yourself. You saw Canary Wolf.
I read a book about business ownership.

Speaker 2 And as we sit here today, can you give me the overview of your business success since then?

Speaker 4 Yeah, so I now have a group of companies that I've either started or bought.

Speaker 4 I've just sold a company, so there's seven companies in the group.

Speaker 4 I've started a couple of software companies. One of our companies is now the fastest growing, one of the fastest growing companies in the UK.

Speaker 4 We're a software business. I've got a couple of agencies.
I've got an education and training business.

Speaker 2 And when you think about the UK and broadly the Western world today, what is your assessment of where we're at as a country and what's concerning you?

Speaker 2 Because Gary expressed quite articulately that his big concern is that because of wealth inequality, we're going to end up in a similar position to the likes of India. What are you concerned about?

Speaker 4 I agree that it wasn't that long ago that we had real serious wealth inequality in this country. There are amazing photos from...

Speaker 4 like 100 years ago of kids working in mines and kids doing oyster shucking and all this horrible work. And, you know,

Speaker 4 there's a book Charles Dickens wrote called The Tale of Two Cities. And the opening line of the book is, it was the best of times, it was the worst of times.

Speaker 4 And I think we've actually gotten to that point here where some people in the UK, it's the best of times. If you, like in your situation, you're, you know, you're booming.

Speaker 4 You're a globally successful business. I've got a globally successful business.
And then there are a lot of people who completely cannot relate to this.

Speaker 4 Energy prices are now the most expensive in the Western world. House prices are completely unaffordable.
It used to be, used to take three years to save for a deposit.

Speaker 4 It's now 20 years, if you, you know, theoretically 20 years, if you can save for a deposit. Food prices are through the roof.

Speaker 4 So we're in a really difficult, like for anyone who is not tapped into digital economy, fast growth and all of that sort of stuff, life is getting harder and worse and things are collapsing if you if you would go with that.

Speaker 4 There is a predictable path countries go on, and there's this thing called the economic freedom index. And the economic freedom index basically says, how economically free are you?

Speaker 4 How much access do do you have to free markets?

Speaker 4 Can you start a business? Can you scale a business?

Speaker 4 Does anything inhibit your ability to run your own life?

Speaker 4 Countries that have high degrees of economic freedom have very low poverty. They have widespread affluence.
And countries that have low economic freedoms have high poverty.

Speaker 4 And it can be the difference between less than 10% right up to 70% poverty rates.

Speaker 4 And when countries go on a path towards economic freedom, poverty just drops.

Speaker 4 So India, for example, has been on that path and they announced today that they've almost eradicated abject poverty or extreme poverty.

Speaker 4 The UK went on that path of low economic freedom to high economic freedom and we saw poverty rates come right down.

Speaker 4 But in 2008, when the global financial crisis happened, one of the things that happened is the government said, we need to step in.

Speaker 4 and we need to take charge and everyone said please do so they came in and they said all right we're going to ramp up debt ramp up taxes to pay for the debt and we're also going to put all regulations in and unfortunately, that starts to reduce economic freedom.

Speaker 4 Then the pandemic happens and they say, oh, we're going to spend more money again through debt. We're going to have more taxes, more regulations, less economic freedom.

Speaker 4 So the UK, we went from an 82, when I arrived in 2006, we went from 82 out of 100 down to 68 out of 100. So we're less economically free.

Speaker 4 And predictably, what we will always see happen, if you lower people's economic freedom, more poverty, less affluence, the millionaires and the wealth creators leave.

Speaker 4 The people who are stuck in dead-end jobs or no jobs get incredibly frustrated. Everyone starts looking for someone to blame.
People are angry and they're like, who do we blame?

Speaker 2 And who do they blame?

Speaker 4 It's very different because in the US, we blame, US blame someone different to the UK. So we have a historical cultural memory.

Speaker 4 In the UK, we have a cultural memory that the people to blame are the rich. So we have landlords and aristocracy and the landed gentry.
Those guys are to blame, right?

Speaker 4 So blame the rich is what we say in the UK. In the US, they have a very different view.
Their cultural memory is that they're anti-government. They want limited government.

Speaker 4 In 2023, there was this song that came out called Rich Men North of Richmond. And it was the number one song in America.

Speaker 4 And the lyrics of the song basically says, people in Washington do not care about working people. They are taxing everything we touch.
You can't earn money. They depreciate the dollar.

Speaker 4 They tax, tax, tax, tax, tax. And they want to control our lives.
Those are the lyrics of the songs, controlling our lives and taxing us. So the American reaction to this is who's to blame?

Speaker 4 Government. So we want smaller government.
We want a Department of Government Efficiency to come in. We want someone as a wrecking ball who will come in and smash government.

Speaker 4 The British instinct is hate the rich. It must be the rich's fault.
So when we look for like all of the Western countries that implemented lower economic freedoms

Speaker 4 created more poverty, less affluence and more disruption to their economies. So both US and UK, for example, and Australia as well, but both sides of the pond want someone to blame.

Speaker 4 It's just that the Americans blame government and we blame the rich.

Speaker 2 Gary, I'm sure you have a lot to say there. I know you both use the word collapsing.

Speaker 2 So you agree that there's a problem here, but I think you, from studying both of your sort of perspectives, you think that

Speaker 2 the solution and the cause of the problem is different.

Speaker 3 I mean, I put bets on, I put bets on, I put bets. That's what I do.
I put bets on.

Speaker 3 At the beginning of Covid,

Speaker 3 we knew the government was going to give an enormous amount of money out.

Speaker 3 Total amount of money now, UK government deficit since the beginning of COVID is one trillion pounds. US number is 14 trillion dollars.
That's you know 20,000 pounds per UK adult.

Speaker 3 My background is I understand that when the distribution gets worse when inequality gets worse living standards fall so when when the UK government was going to give a trillion pounds out all I wanted to know was who's going to end up with that money?

Speaker 3 That's all I wanted to know and I mean the US number 13 trillion 14 trillion is just outlandish but I think the most amazing thing I've ever seen in my whole life

Speaker 3 was that at the beginning of COVID, the very beginning of COVID, we knew governments across the world were going to be giving out tens of trillions of pounds, dollars, euros.

Speaker 3 Nobody even thought to ask

Speaker 3 who's going to get tens of trillions richer.

Speaker 3 Nobody in the Conservatives, nobody in Labour, nobody in the Republicans, nobody in Democrats, nobody in the media, nobody in academia, nobody in the central banks. Nobody asked this.

Speaker 3 It's almost beautiful.

Speaker 3 It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable.
So I sat down and I did the analysis at the beginning.

Speaker 3 Because lockdown is essentially banning the spending of the rich and replacing that spending of the rich with printed money from government. What happens is the government gives workers money.

Speaker 3 They use that money to pay their bills, to pay their rent, to pay their mortgage. It goes to the rich.
The rich can't spend it because they're locked indoors.

Speaker 3 And what you get is essentially an enormous amount of money from the government to the poor, to the rich. And this massive, massive transfer of wealth.

Speaker 3 That was obviously going to happen. That was so obviously going to happen at the beginning of COVID.
Nobody discussed it, which I think is itself amazing.

Speaker 3 Let me ask you a question, right?

Speaker 3 If we were now to pause the economy for two years and during that pause, massively increase wealth inequality, what do you think would happen to broad living conditions when we unpaused?

Speaker 4 See, one of the things that I think happened during the pandemic is

Speaker 4 everything went digital. And entrepreneurs and investors did actually think about what would happen.
The investors immediately boomed stocks like Zoom and Microsoft.

Speaker 4 And we ended up with the Magnificent Seven.

Speaker 4 I don't know if you, you know, there's seven big tech companies in the USA market and those big seven companies have gone from 5 trillion valuation to 17 trillion valuation in the time of the pandemic.

Speaker 4 And if you think about what did the pandemic do,

Speaker 4 everyone had to work from home. So we all had to have Microsoft subscriptions.
Everyone went onto websites. So we all went to AWS, Amazon.

Speaker 4 We all started buying and learning how to buy from Amazon rather than buying from our local high streets. Every business in the world figured out how to run their business remotely.

Speaker 4 We had this massive transformation.

Speaker 4 It was like, it's actually a wholesale transformation of society that we all learn how to live and work differently.

Speaker 4 I saw a boom in entrepreneurship. So what I saw as an entrepreneur accelerator,

Speaker 4 someone who runs an entrepreneur accelerator, is just there was this sudden boom in people launching businesses, setting up Shopify accounts, setting up YouTube businesses.

Speaker 4 So the money really has moved from the traditional economy, the 2019 high street economy, over to the digital economy.

Speaker 4 And what we see is that the investors know what's going on and they just invest in this magnificent seven company. I think 50% of the gains of the S ⁇ P 500 is tech companies.

Speaker 4 So all the money just goes flooding into the technology companies. My belief is that technology is really dividing people, that essentially if you take...

Speaker 4 anyone from any background, if they work in technology, if they're in media tech, finance, any of that stuff that operates online, they tend to actually do pretty well after the pandemic.

Speaker 3 I'll ask you a question. Yeah, go for it.

Speaker 3 Do you think the average Brit, American, Australian, whoever the person out there is watching, if they quit their job and go work in tech, do you think they'll be able to get financial security relatively easily?

Speaker 4 Depends when you define financial security. The issue with house prices.

Speaker 3 The ability to raise a family, have a home. Yeah.

Speaker 4 So having a home is a big issue, right? So

Speaker 4 here's what I see with houses, because houses annoy me as well. My dad bought a house for £18,000, which is about £10,000 or less than £10,000, and it's probably worth over a million dollars

Speaker 4 today.

Speaker 4 So something went wrong. And this, by the way, is not UK specific.

Speaker 4 The socialist countries had the house prices go through the roof. If you go to Norway or Sweden, their house prices grew by 600%

Speaker 4 in the

Speaker 3 way. It's happening everywhere.

Speaker 4 But what happened, what has definitely happened in the UK is we actually have a housing traffic jam.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 in this country, in the UK, we have 9.5 million homes that have two or more spare bedrooms. Big family homes have two or more spare bedrooms.

Speaker 4 And when you look into who owns those houses, 78% of housing wealth is baby boomers.

Speaker 4 And now, anecdotally, I take my kids trick-or-treating at Halloween, and we go down a street that is big family homes. and you go knock on the doors and it's all people over 65, right?

Speaker 4 And they're living in a big family home with empty spare bedrooms.

Speaker 3 You think the average American over 65 is living luxuriously?

Speaker 4 The average American over 65, so more than half of the U.S. economy is in the hands of baby boomers, right? So they own all the houses.

Speaker 4 The houses got bought up cheap. Baby boomers still own those houses to this day.
The big family homes with multiple spare bedrooms are empty.

Speaker 4 And now that creates this traffic jam where people my age.

Speaker 3 My grandparents. Yeah.
They all own property. Yeah.

Speaker 3 all four of them

Speaker 3 died with nothing

Speaker 3 um because that wealth which they had in in property was was used in equity release schemes they they it was used in paying through their retirement it was used in end-of-life care um do you think when those old people die young people today will be rich

Speaker 4 there is half the economy held by baby boomers it's either going to be passed down or passed into the aged care industry or passed into...

Speaker 4 But the issue of why we can't get homes, two things. Government massively inflated the value of homes through debt.
So they just injected like low interest rates that you were involved in.

Speaker 3 Who is the debt to?

Speaker 4 Well, the debt is to anyone who can take out a loan because if 0% interest rates or 2% interest rates...

Speaker 3 Do you think it's the debt is to ordinary families? Do you think the ordinary families are the creditors?

Speaker 4 When you say ordinary families, you mean...

Speaker 3 bottom third. So if your average British or American family now has half a million pounds of debt,

Speaker 4 who has the credit? It's anyone who could get their, at that particular time, anyone who could get their hands on a loan to buy a house.

Speaker 3 But who has the housing? Who is on the other side of the debt? So if the average British family

Speaker 3 has half a million pound infantry,

Speaker 3 does the average British family have half a million pounds of credit?

Speaker 4 Well, a lot of people have got a lot of equity in their home now.

Speaker 3 You think the average British family is sitting on half a million pound cash?

Speaker 4 I'd love to look at what the actual number is, but it's a couple of hundred thousand worth of equity. 78% of the cash.

Speaker 3 But what about the credit on the loan? Put a credit on the loan.

Speaker 3 Who owns the credit on the line?

Speaker 4 Bear in mind, it's disproportionately older people. So 78% of the cash.

Speaker 3 So you think the average British old person is sitting on millions of pounds of cash?

Speaker 4 Not millions of cash, no. Equity.

Speaker 3 Well, someone is on the other side of the state.

Speaker 4 The difference is if you inflate the value of a house, you don't have cash. You have a house that's worth a lot of money.
So 78% of home ownership wealth is in the hands of people over 65 now.

Speaker 4 It's baby boomer generation. And they got a great gift from the government, which is the government said, we're going to just give free loans away.

Speaker 4 If someone previously could have only afforded to take out a 200 grand loan with low interest rates, they can afford a 300 grand loan.

Speaker 3 Do you think it's okay that the average British or American young person will never own any wealth?

Speaker 4 The issue is not whether it's okay or not. The issue is what do you do about it?

Speaker 3 Do you own wealth? I've got wealth here. Do you own wealth? But it depends what you do.
I call wealth. I do.

Speaker 3 So do we, three multi-millionaires, do we think it's okay that the average Brit or American young person will never own any wealth? To me, that's the debate. Because I don't think that's okay.

Speaker 4 To me, that's not the debate.

Speaker 3 But is it okay?

Speaker 4 It's not. Well, it's not okay.
No, we want widespread affluence.

Speaker 3 Would you rather the people who currently are multi-millionaires, would you rather that all of the wealth was owned by their kids?

Speaker 4 I think that the way you see the world as a trader is that the world is a zero-sum game and that there's basically the pie is a fixed pie and it gets sliced up.

Speaker 3 How fast is the pie growing now?

Speaker 4 There's something like this.

Speaker 3 What's the UK GDP growth at the moment?

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's not high, right?

Speaker 3 1%.

Speaker 3 How much did your wealth grow in the last year?

Speaker 4 Exponentially.

Speaker 3 Okay, so if our worlds are, my wealth probably grew about 20% in the last year. Maybe 30%, okay? If our worlds are growing 30%

Speaker 3 and the economy is growing at 1%,

Speaker 3 where is it coming from if it's not coming from our viewers?

Speaker 4 So I'll tell you where my wealth comes from. My wealth comes from building technology companies.
And the way it works is pretty weird, which is that I invent something out of my head.

Speaker 4 And I go to investors and I say to the investors, here's what we're going to create. And I give them a spreadsheet.

Speaker 4 And then they say, we'll give you a couple of hundred grand to get started, which is called seed capital. But that on paper makes me worth a couple of million.

Speaker 4 But there's nothing has been taken from anyone at this point.

Speaker 4 The investors have said, okay, we'll invest the money. Then as the business succeeds, some more investors come along and they say, we'll give you a little bit more money to keep growing it.

Speaker 4 And I'm innovating something new. And let's say investors come in and give me a million pounds.
And for 10% of the company, the rest of the company is worth £9 million or $9 million. Right.

Speaker 4 So I'm not stealing something from the existing economy. I'm bringing something from outside of the economy into the economy.

Speaker 4 And my quote-unquote net worth is growing exponentially because investors say, we'll give you a little bit of money that values the rest of the pie at a lot of money.

Speaker 3 Everyone's getting richer.

Speaker 4 In the wealth create,

Speaker 4 there's wealth extraction, which is what traders do. They extract from the existing economy and they bet on the economy.
And then there's wealth creation, which what entrepreneurs do.

Speaker 4 They come up with new ideas, better ways of doing things, and they build wealth.

Speaker 3 So, do you think the reason our viewers, the average Brit or American, are getting poorer is because they don't know how to create wealth?

Speaker 4 No, the reason people are getting poorer is because economic freedoms are being eroded.

Speaker 4 Okay, when we have higher economic freedom, and you associate that with taxes, well, anything that it could be anything that impacts economic freedom. So, taxes and regulations are big.

Speaker 3 Was economic freedom higher in the 50s?

Speaker 3 50s was okay.

Speaker 4 So, the 50s was an interesting time.

Speaker 4 We were in food food rations in this country till uh 1956 so we had 10 years of food rations after the war um we had a labor shortage uh because only really men worked women hadn't entered the workforce en masse

Speaker 4 there had been three or four hundred thousand men killed in war so we actually had this big labor shortage the whole country needed to rebuild because of the blitz had bombed it so we had this huge need for economic activity and not enough people to do it we only had two percent unemployment people who had had their legs blown off were put to work at that particular time.

Speaker 4 So we had this boop, this post-war boom, and we also had the post-war baby boom, which drove consumption.

Speaker 4 And then when we got to the 60s, we had the roaring 60s or the

Speaker 4 swinging 60s, right? Pretty amazing time in Britain. And along comes high taxes.

Speaker 4 And they put up the taxes massively at the end of the 60s. And it pretty much crashed the economy.
One of the things that happened...

Speaker 3 So what were the tax rates in the 50s?

Speaker 4 Well, they went up as high as 80 to 90%.

Speaker 4 For the top earnings. I think it was in the 60s.

Speaker 3 Are you sure about that?

Speaker 4 I think the 50s are unique.

Speaker 2 What is the answer, Gary?

Speaker 3 I feel like you know they went up after the war. They went up after the war.
Well, in the US, actually, tax rates sort of got before the war.

Speaker 4 But also, the size of government as a percentage of GDP was like 30%.

Speaker 4 It was a tiny, like we are now 45% of the UK economy is government spending. We have got a

Speaker 3 who funds that spending? Debt.

Speaker 4 The Bank of England allows them to print endless amounts of debt, which

Speaker 3 deflate taxes.

Speaker 2 Gary, I want to get your opinion here because you're asking a lot of questions, but I actually don't know your opinion.

Speaker 3 I just want to know what Daniel thinks, and I want our viewers to be able to research Daniel's opinions.

Speaker 2 But how do you disagree with those opinions?

Speaker 3 Listen, Daniel's a businessman. He's obviously a very successful businessman.
You know, I've not been anywhere. I'm not a businessman.
I'm not going to pretend to be a businessman. I'm an economist.

Speaker 3 I make money by being right in the economy. Daniel's a good businessman, and I'm right on the economy.
You know, it's as simple as that, basically.

Speaker 3 You know, I'm not a good businessman, but I've got 15 years of being right on this, on the economy. And look, I know you're probably a wealthy man.

Speaker 3 You probably don't want to pay higher taxes you probably don't want your kids to pay higher taxes but we exist in an economy where wealth is being extracted out of the middle class out of the working class very very rapidly it's benefiting people like the three of us at this table it will benefit our kids you know our kids will be rich their kids will be poor and i just think we should be honest with them capitalism's finished we won well done stephen well done daniel well done gary It's over now.

Speaker 3 Our kids will be rich. Their kids will be poor.
They'll pay the taxes. We won't pay the taxes.
We'll avoid it. I'll make money betting on it year after year.
Why are we lying to them?

Speaker 3 Why are we lying to them?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I think that's an overly simplified view of things.

Speaker 3 That's an overly simplified view of things that has made me a multimillionaire. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Well, look, entrepreneurs take bets on the economy as well. We take bets differently.
When we start a company, we're betting on how the economy

Speaker 2 should be.

Speaker 3 British and American worker at the 50th percentile. Do you think their kids will be richer than they are?

Speaker 4 It depends if we have economic freedom or not, right? We're going to have a split test on.

Speaker 4 We're going to have a split test. We're going to have the UK seems like we're going to have more taxes, more regulations.
And it seems like the US is going to have less taxes and less regulations.

Speaker 4 Here's what I've noticed. I've noticed that places like Singapore that have small governments have got widespread affluence.
There's not a lot of poverty in Singapore.

Speaker 3 Yeah, except for the cleaners living in the closets. Yeah.

Speaker 4 You know,

Speaker 3 look. But we don't count them in the statistics.
Just like we don't count our viewers.

Speaker 4 That's not widespread in Singapore.

Speaker 3 Well, there's a lot of people. Whoa.
I've seen them in the closet

Speaker 3 i've seen them in the closet there are there are some but they're not singaporeans

Speaker 3 well also they only count the rich ones

Speaker 3 look

Speaker 4 they're the also the issue is is that they've come from even worse conditions in many cases people moved to singapore for an increase in lifestyle right the um

Speaker 4 you could take ireland or switzerland right economically free places ireland was economically in a disaster i think the average irish person lives well well their economy

Speaker 3 almost

Speaker 4 lives well. Their economy almost collapsed in 2011 and they went down the road of lower taxes, lower regulations, and they attracted all sorts of businesses into the economy.

Speaker 3 But do you think that works well for the average Irishman who doesn't own a home in Dublin?

Speaker 4 If you measure everything by home ownership.

Speaker 3 I'm measuring people by the average.

Speaker 3 I want to know what the average man or woman in Dublin today lives like.

Speaker 4 By the way, I'm also furious about the home ownership thing. Everyone is.

Speaker 4 I think it's utterly ridiculous the way home, like the idea that homes are now worth 10 times the average wage, all of that. Difference is I blame government for that.

Speaker 4 I blame high taxes where they've, because of high taxes, they can take out more debt, they can then inflate the economy.

Speaker 3 So do you think if we shrink the government, if we start to slash government spending, do you think that would improve living conditions?

Speaker 4 Well, the UK government is 45% of the economy. Like, that's a huge government.

Speaker 3 It's the biggest USB. Living conditions will increase in the next few years because we have a US government now that's planning to slash the U.S.

Speaker 4 government. Well, that's what the U.S.
voters have asked for.

Speaker 3 Do you think it will improve living conditions?

Speaker 4 Do I think it'll improve

Speaker 3 if there's smaller government?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I trust my

Speaker 3 average U.S. American will be richer in three years than the other.
Here's what I trust.

Speaker 4 I trust economic freedom. If people have freedom, they create...
better decisions for their own life. There's two ways to do that.

Speaker 3 You have decisions, right? There's two ways. You have freedom.

Speaker 4 I've got less freedom than I did when I arrived.

Speaker 3 Because my sister can't pay the rent. Is that freedom?

Speaker 4 If you're living in a country...

Speaker 3 She can't afford to live in the city that she was born in i i agree you and i agree on the problem you keep bringing back to the problem i keep bringing it back to people because the people who watch we're millionaires okay the people who watch us are mostly not millionaires

Speaker 3 is life going to get better for them the life will get better

Speaker 4 if you are connected to the most productive parts of the economy um if you pretend that it's 1955 and you recreate the post-war era conditions if you try to go back to 1955 i don't think that's going to work so so let me ask on that then the point about if you're connected to the most productive parts of the economy.

Speaker 2 I was

Speaker 2 quite surprised when I was doing some research on this to find that there's quite big differences between the UK and the US in terms of GDP growth.

Speaker 2 In Q4 2024, the US economy grew by 0.6% while the UK growth was 0.1%.

Speaker 2 So they're doing significantly better in that regard. US GDP per head stands at $82,000 per head, whereas the UK stands at $49,000 per head.

Speaker 2 And stock market performance, which is an indication of, I guess, whatever, rose by 300% in the US, whereas the FTSE 100 declined by 20%, which is the UK stock market.

Speaker 2 Productivity growth since 2018, productivity increased by 30% in the United States, which has outpaced the UK. And lastly, income growth.
Since 2007, American income per head has increased by 72%,

Speaker 2 while it has decreased.

Speaker 2 by 2%

Speaker 2 in the UK in dollar terms. So they seem to be doing better from an, if you just look at the economy.

Speaker 3 Why is that?

Speaker 2 Is that that because they lean more into technology and to innovation and entrepreneurship?

Speaker 2 And is it because of the things you were saying earlier about their attitude towards the government, like reduced government spending versus tax the rich? Why?

Speaker 2 I'm keen to hear Gary's view on this because I understand yours because you've just said it.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I think these are great statistics.

Speaker 3 And of course, the US has a strong

Speaker 3 reputation for being very free markets and being very small states. In the last five years, 10 years, 15 years,

Speaker 3 we've had a UK government that has been aggressively slashing the state. And the US.

Speaker 4 The US state's bigger than ever. It's 45% of the economy.

Speaker 3 And the US, we had a government in the last four years which has been running a massive, massive deficit.

Speaker 3 So in that period of time,

Speaker 3 it appears the government which has been aggressively increasing its deficit has massively overperformed the government which has been aggressively slashing the state.

Speaker 3 That's what it looks to be from the last. I mean, Joe Biden enormously increased the deficit, enormously.
And the Conservatives Conservatives were austerity government for 14 years.

Speaker 3 Which one seems to have given the better numbers?

Speaker 4 Well, I mean, they were austerity in name only. They went from 30%.

Speaker 4 The state was 30% of GDP to 45% of GDP.

Speaker 3 Government services have

Speaker 3 been funded now.

Speaker 4 The government is terrible at doing most things. That's the problem.

Speaker 3 You don't want to. You don't think that spending on government services has been slashed?

Speaker 4 Let me zoom out a little bit.

Speaker 3 Is that the police spending's been slashed?

Speaker 4 Oh, police spending is definitely.

Speaker 3 Education spending has been slashed.

Speaker 4 Do you know where it ends up? It ends up up with like big corporates,

Speaker 4 big consulting, who get paid $50 million to produce a report to tell government something.

Speaker 4 All of these big, I won't name names, but all the big consulting firms, they're all bloodsuckers to government.

Speaker 4 They know that the money is in the government and they set up business models to extract that money from government.

Speaker 4 And it also is in the financial trading side of things.

Speaker 4 One of the issues that we've got, right, and this is a big issue as well, because you care about wealth inequality.

Speaker 4 One of the biggest issues I see is that during the pandemic, we all learned to work remotely and remote work became the norm.

Speaker 4 And what I see at the moment is huge amounts of what would have been normal British jobs are going to the Philippines, going to India, going to Vietnam, people who work remotely now.

Speaker 4 We now have a thousand millionaires a month leaving to go to Dubai. We have 120,000 British people living in Dubai

Speaker 4 in that economy. The world's become incredibly mobile.

Speaker 4 And one of the things that's happening is that what would have previously been good British jobs are getting moved overseas to lower-cost countries. And that's technology that drives that wedge.

Speaker 4 The US is very smart in that they've built a technology powerhouse, and the UK has completely lost our technology industry. Our tech industry is in decline, same across Europe.

Speaker 4 China and the US know that the game is tech, and they're basically pulling all the tech company into

Speaker 4 their borders. And what's happening a lot is the erosion of good jobs and the erosion of just normal, well-paying jobs because they're going.

Speaker 4 And it's a bit of a self-fulfilling loop that the more we lose millionaires, the tax burden falls on everyone else. So they put the taxes up.
And then the millionaires say, oh, the taxes are too high.

Speaker 4 So they leave. I've watched some of the most incredible entrepreneurs that you would want here that would employ your sister at a high rate.

Speaker 4 And they've picked up and left because the taxes are too high. So are you saying we should tax working people less well the the the overall government has to be smaller uh you can't whoever

Speaker 3 what do you want to cut in the government if you uh yeah well i mean you'd have to child services we'd have to no police no education nhs all i know is this pensions you go to switzerland they spend 20

Speaker 3 25 stable benefits what do you want to cut hold up all i know is in switzerland i'll tell you what i want the the government

Speaker 3 on those entrepreneurs and raised the taxes on the billionaires billionaires because i worked my tits off how many billionaires are in the uk there's a lot of billionaires in the uk 150.

Speaker 3 yeah so tax them all what do they pay listen i worked my tits off and i paid it was 50 top rate of tax 50 top rate of tax plus national insurance 60

Speaker 3 to bring my family out of poverty at the same time the duke of westminster inherited 10 billion pounds and paid nothing do you think that's fair that's not true okay why is it not true because the duke of westminster is one of the highest taxpayers in the country what does he pay well on the trust the Grosvenor Estate,

Speaker 4 they don't pay inheritance tax because trusts can't die. They pay something called periodic taxes, which

Speaker 4 is 6% every 10 years.

Speaker 3 6%. So they pay 0.6%.

Speaker 3 So I pay

Speaker 3 10%. And this guy pays 0.6%.

Speaker 4 Apples with apples. Inheritance tax is 40% across the course of your life.

Speaker 4 If a person lives who owns a trust for 70 years, then 6% times 7 would be 42%. So they actually pay more.

Speaker 3 So he pays 0.6% a year. Pro-right.

Speaker 4 But that would be the same as what percent did I pay per year?

Speaker 3 No, no, no. But that's 60%.
Hold up. So you're saying I pay what 60 of a 0.6% a year? No, no, no, no.

Speaker 3 You're not comparing apples with apples. Why is it not apples with apples? This guy pays 0.6% a year.
I paid 60% a year.

Speaker 4 That's inheritance tax.

Speaker 3 I paid that 60% every year, Daniel. Every year I pay 10.

Speaker 4 You're paying income tax.

Speaker 3 So why have I payed for it? The Duke of Westminster pays income tax.

Speaker 4 The Duke of Westminster pays income tax.

Speaker 4 He probably makes your bill blush.

Speaker 3 Yeah, because he pays income tax.

Speaker 4 Yeah, well, if he's going to live, he has to withdraw money to have his income.

Speaker 4 Let me give you a list of all the taxes he would pay. He'd pay income tax, corporate tax.
He'd pay stamp duty when he buys a building. He pays

Speaker 4 any of the other taxes, VAT when he spends money. All the same taxes apply to a Duke as they apply to anybody else.

Speaker 3 So you think he pays income tax on the income on that?

Speaker 4 Any income he draws on that.

Speaker 3 Okay, well, you're going to research whether he pays income tax on his income.

Speaker 4 I don't think he does. I mean, how could he?

Speaker 3 He's in a trust.

Speaker 4 But the only difference with a trust yeah versus income is that the trust pays periodic tax versus inheritance tax 0.6 percent but we're only talking inheritance that that's just one type of tax trust you think he's paying 60 on his income he's one of the highest taxpayers in the uk i'm not like his big fan club but the truth is he's one of the highest taxpayers in the uk um he's one of the biggest employers in the uk he's one of the like one of the biggest landowners in the landowners in the uk right uh so

Speaker 4 uh the the issue is is does he pay tax all the same taxes that apply to to you apply to him.

Speaker 4 And if you want to set up a trust, you can also pay periodic taxes as well, which would be on top of all the other taxes. So what would you say?

Speaker 3 But it's just not true that he doesn't pay tax. No, what would you say? This guy, he's inherited £10 billion.

Speaker 3 So he's worth £10 billion.

Speaker 3 What would you say will be the total amount of tax he will pay in his lifetime?

Speaker 4 Well, I know that just the smallest...

Speaker 3 If I make £10 billion, I pay 60%.

Speaker 4 Just want to say.

Speaker 4 You're talking about income versus the transfer of an estate.

Speaker 4 So why is it because you can westminster because we're 10 billion you can't just you're comparing your income yeah versus the amount he inherited which is not a fair thing that's not because that's his income

Speaker 3 inheritance is not income so wait wait wait wait wait wait wait so if i get given 10 billion pounds i don't pay any tax but if i work for 10 billion pounds i pay 60 well if you inherit this is the tax system that you want you will end up in a system i'm just saying where you say kids of the rich world and everything you're that's what i'm saying that's what i'm saying and that's fine because that's our kids you're not telling the truth about his let's kids.

Speaker 3 Let's have a tax system where your kids and my kids and Stephen's kids are multi-millionaires, and these guys out there can't afford to feed their kids and put the heat in.

Speaker 4 That's not what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 But that's what you will get. That's not what I'm saying.
That is what you will get. Listen, that's what I'm betting on.
That's fine because I'll make money in the markets. It's fine.

Speaker 3 And you'll make money and you'll make money. It's our viewers who will be poor.
And that's fine. That's fine.
That's fine for us.

Speaker 4 Let's explore the other alternative, right? So let's say tax the rich, right? So let's play the game of tax the rich.

Speaker 3 Tax the owners. Tax the rich workers.
Yeah, so the richer. The owners.
So owners.

Speaker 4 So the issue that we have with the rich

Speaker 4 is that the number one most valuable assets in the economy now are intangible assets.

Speaker 4 So there's this chart called the S ⁇ P 500 of the 500 richest countries in the country, in the world, in the US, sorry. In 1970s,

Speaker 4 75% of the value of the S ⁇ P 500 was physical assets like property. And today it's less than 10%.

Speaker 4 It's closer to 5%.

Speaker 3 So you think that housing is not particularly important?

Speaker 4 Just let's stick with what I'm saying.

Speaker 4 The powerhouse, the engine room of the economy is digital assets, and that's reflected in the SP 500, for example, which is 95% intangible assets.

Speaker 4 One of the issues that we have is that the richest people are completely mobile now, so they can be absolutely anywhere in the world.

Speaker 4 So if you come up with this idea of let's tax richest people one percent, if a tiny proportion of them leave, we're all in trouble.

Speaker 3 So these really rich guys,

Speaker 3 what do they own?

Speaker 4 Companies.

Speaker 3 And why are those companies worth money?

Speaker 4 Because investors say they are.

Speaker 3 And where do the revenues come from? Globally.

Speaker 4 The issue is that these companies operate globally now. So

Speaker 4 take my company, for example. My company has 8,000 customers in 150 countries.

Speaker 4 We could be anywhere. If you push a button.

Speaker 3 What country is your biggest single revenue source?

Speaker 4 Probably the US now.

Speaker 3 Let's say you move to Cayman Islands

Speaker 3 and the US says we're going to tax your revenue at point of sale.

Speaker 3 What can you do?

Speaker 4 Well, that's different, right? Because that's not taxing billionaires, that's taxing companies.

Speaker 4 See, when you say tax the rich on their wealth, that's different to saying tax companies a consumption tax.

Speaker 3 Oh, but you just said the rich own companies. You said that's what they own.

Speaker 4 Yeah, but you're saying, how do you tax them, right? So do you tax their wealth, which is what they own, or do you tax the companies where they trade?

Speaker 4 Typically, consumption taxes get passed on to consumers.

Speaker 3 Oh, it's not a consumption tax. This is the tax on the ownership.

Speaker 4 Yeah, but if you simply say when you're doing revenues, then that's consumption.

Speaker 3 If we start to tax

Speaker 4 profits of companies, by the way, I'm not exactly against you on companies.

Speaker 4 I think it's disgusting that a British company can take out a Facebook ad to sell to a British consumer a British product, and Facebook pretends to be in Ireland on that transaction.

Speaker 4 And Amazon, you can buy something on Amazon in Britain from a British supplier, from a British warehouse, and Amazon pretends to be in Luxembourg in that situation. And that sucks, right?

Speaker 4 Like that does not seem fair. And it strikes me as very strange that the government is okay with that.

Speaker 4 Right now, the government is chasing down mums and dads who sell a few things on eBay and chasing them for taxes, but they don't talk to eBay.

Speaker 4 They're paranoid about someone doing a little bit of a side hustle on Facebook, but Facebook's fine to pretend to be an island.

Speaker 3 So I don't agree with all of that, right?

Speaker 4 Like I think we're missing some serious tricks here. But the idea with taxing billionaires at wealth, billionaires will just leave.
They just get up and leave. And not just billionaires.

Speaker 3 But what do billionaires own? What do billionaires own?

Speaker 4 Companies.

Speaker 3 And where do companies get their money from?

Speaker 4 Revenues.

Speaker 3 And where do the revenues come from?

Speaker 4 Purchasing.

Speaker 3 People purchasing. Where do those people live? All over the world.
We can tax them at that point.

Speaker 4 Well, that's consumption. This is the thing.
That's a consumption tax.

Speaker 3 No, it's not.

Speaker 4 VAT is a tax on revenues.

Speaker 3 We can tax these guys on profits based on where the revenues come from.

Speaker 4 So it's very easy to move profits internationally. See, Stephen had a Starbucks cup.

Speaker 4 When he buys that Starbucks, it's bought from a British company who licenses the Starbucks logo from Luxembourg or somewhere like that. So 15%.

Speaker 4 So here we are saying, oh, we're going to tax their profits. They say, oh, I wish we were profitable.
Sorry. Unfortunately, we had to do that licensing deal with that international company.

Speaker 3 I know how profit shifting works. Okay, so

Speaker 3 are you telling me

Speaker 3 a company is selling to

Speaker 3 the UK, the US, an enormous amount of profit in the US. And they turn around and say, actually, our profit's not in the US.

Speaker 3 Do you think the US

Speaker 3 is incapable of going and looking if that's seeing where the profit is?

Speaker 4 I'm not saying that you can't do this.

Speaker 4 I'm saying that the benefits of doing it, it's so hard to tax wealth, for example, or it's so hard to tax millionaires and billionaires that you end up cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Speaker 4 For every

Speaker 4 like if we create Britain, for example, and we build a brand which is that we're anti-wealth. We don't want you to ever have more than 10 million.
If you've got more than 10 million, we punish you.

Speaker 4 Every young entrepreneur who comes to me and says, Dan, do you think I should start a company here in this country? I'm going to say, well, if you do,

Speaker 4 they'll take it. As soon as you start to make it, they'll take it.
As soon as you're successful, if you get investment, they're going to tax you at your wealth.

Speaker 4 If you sell the company, they're going to take it off you. I'm going to basically say to that young entrepreneur, don't build your business in Britain.

Speaker 4 Go start it somewhere that they're more proactive and positive towards entrepreneurs.

Speaker 2 Are we seeing that now with this, they call it the millionaire exodus, which is, for people that don't know, the UK is set to lose the greatest proportion of millionaires in the world.

Speaker 2 This parliament, I'll put a graph on the screen, which is this one here, this one here.

Speaker 2 And that little red line here is us losing all of our millionaires at the moment. And in 2024, it's an estimated that...

Speaker 2 10,800 high-net worth individuals left the UK, which is a 157% increase from the previous year, which means that one millionaire is departing every 45 minutes.

Speaker 2 The UK millionaire exodus is equal to losing 530,000 average taxpayers. And another stat, the top 10% of earners in the US account for nearly half of all consumer spending.

Speaker 2 The top 1% of income taxpayers in the UK are projected to contribute about 30% of total income tax from 2024 to 2025.

Speaker 2 Why are all these millionaires running away?

Speaker 3 Well, it's not because they're taxing their wealth because we don't have any wealth taxes.

Speaker 2 Why do you think they're leaving?

Speaker 3 I think the reason they're leaving is because the UK economy is really, really weak, because the UK consumer is really, really weak, because you've absolutely crushed the spending power of your average British family.

Speaker 3 And where are the people? Your average British family can barely afford to feed the kids and turn the heating on.

Speaker 3 So why are you going to start a business here when the customers are absolutely impoverished?

Speaker 4 Look, it corresponds with a new tax that we brought in, which was

Speaker 4 we ended the non-Dom scheme. So the non-DOM scheme basically said, if you're living in the UK, but you've got businesses all over the world,

Speaker 4 then we only tax you on what you've got in the UK. And if you die in the UK,

Speaker 4 we'll only tax you on your UK assets for inheritance tax if you're a non-dom.

Speaker 4 But if you die in the UK and you've got wealth in India, once that non-dom scheme ended, they basically said, we will tax you on everything globally.

Speaker 4 If you're an economic, if you're a tax resident in the UK, everything you've got globally, we want 40% of it.

Speaker 4 So unfortunately, every wealth manager contacted their clients and said, you can't stay here. You're going to have to get out.

Speaker 4 It's gotten really bad. A thousand people a month are leaving.
And in the UK, 1% of people pay 30% of the taxes, 10% of people pay 60% of the taxes.

Speaker 4 And you imagine if we're sitting out at dinner and there's 10 of us out for dinner and one person says, hey, I've got this. I'll get 60% of the bill tonight.

Speaker 4 We say to them, no, it should be 70%, should be 80%. And they say, you know what, I'll get up and leave.
So they leave. Everyone else's bill just doubled.

Speaker 4 So what's going to happen is if we drive the millionaires out of this country, everyone, every ordinary normal person who pays 10 grand a year in tax will now have to pay 20 grand a year in taxes.

Speaker 3 So the reason they left is because we used to allow them to not pay tax.

Speaker 4 On their global incomes, on their global assets.

Speaker 3 So isn't it a bit more like if we were 10 of us at dinner and there was one guy who came on to dinner on the condition he wouldn't pay the leaves? Because these guys weren't paying tax anyway.

Speaker 3 If the reason they left is because they weren't paying tax.

Speaker 4 It's like saying...

Speaker 4 It's like saying, hey, I'll pay 60% of this table. And they say at the table, hey, wait a second, we also want you to pay for everything that's happening at other restaurants as well.

Speaker 3 Isn't it a bit more like

Speaker 3 these guys

Speaker 3 on a condition?

Speaker 3 You yourself said

Speaker 3 the reason why they left is because we let them live here on the condition that they didn't have to pay taxes.

Speaker 4 On their global, yeah, taxes matter, right? So why is everyone going to Dubai? Dubai, they're going there because there's no tax.

Speaker 3 These guys, they live in Dubai. Their money comes from the West.
They are making money.

Speaker 3 from the West while your average Western ordinary person watching this show now cannot afford to buy a house, cannot afford to have a family. We can tax those revenues at the point of sale.

Speaker 3 That's the only thing that's going to be a lot of people. Why can we allow these guys?

Speaker 4 It's called a consumption tax.

Speaker 3 No, it's not. It's a tax on profit.

Speaker 3 You just not a tax on consumption.

Speaker 4 You just said at point of sale, which means it's a consumption tax.

Speaker 3 Based on the profits. You look at how much profits are.
That's not

Speaker 3 where the profits go. Exactly.
It's not a consumption tax. That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 4 No, so if you tax profits,

Speaker 4 right? Then those profits have to accumulate in that country. And because of the digital ecosystem that we now have, the world we now live in, I can lease the database off of my company in Luxembourg.

Speaker 4 I can license the, I can license my logo from my company.

Speaker 3 I understand how profit shifting works.

Speaker 3 Okay, so listen, these guys are not Gandalf. You just say we don't accept profit shifting.
We don't need to accept profit shifting. China does not accept profit shifting.

Speaker 3 We did not accept profit shifting 50 years ago. We do not have to accept profit shifting.

Speaker 3 But you have... a government class who are extremely wealthy and the media class who are extremely wealthy saying it's impossible to tax rich people.

Speaker 3 And I would like to say, I will agree 100%, it is difficult to tax rich people. It is very, very, very difficult to tax rich people.

Speaker 3 I don't come here saying I want to tax rich people because it's easy. I know it's hard.
I know probably I'm going to lose. I know our viewers' kids will live in desperate poverty.
I know that.

Speaker 3 I do this because it is hard.

Speaker 3 If we are a country which says to ourselves, we don't try and do things which are necessary to keep our kids out of poverty because they are hard, then our kids will live in poverty.

Speaker 3 I don't need to be here. I'm a multi-millionaire just like you.
I could be in the Philippines drinking pina coladas.

Speaker 3 I come in here because I come from a poor background and it's ordinary families like my family, like the kids I grew up with, whose kids are going to be in poverty.

Speaker 3 It's difficult, but it is necessary. Sometimes we have to do things not because they're easy, but because they are hard.

Speaker 3 That is what makes a rich country rich and that is what protects ordinary people. Listen, our grandparents lived in poverty.
Did they say, let's not change it because it's hard? No, they didn't.

Speaker 3 They fought and they demanded, they demanded healthcare, education, housing, food, and they got it. They got it.
That's why my parents could live a good quality life. They got those things.

Speaker 3 They got those things and they were aware that in order to do that, you could not allow the super rich who have been living lives of luxury for hundreds and hundreds of years to eat everything while ordinary families couldn't afford to feed their kids.

Speaker 3 I know it's difficult. I know it's difficult.
And I know I'm probably going to lose. I know that.
I know I'm probably going to lose. And that means our viewers will be poor.

Speaker 3 But I do it anyway because I do not want this country that I grew up in to fall into desperate poverty.

Speaker 4 I agree with you on the passion and I agree with you on the problem.

Speaker 4 I don't agree with you on the solution because in 2019

Speaker 4 in 2020 and that's not what I'm saying. In 2020 we made a decision globally to shut down the economy and we taught everyone that they can live and work from anywhere.

Speaker 4 The biggest threat to everything you're saying is remote working. The fact that we can live and work from anywhere.

Speaker 4 Our grandparents, their boss, if their boss owned a company, that company had to physically be in the country and the boss had to physically be in the country.

Speaker 4 If we look at today, there are plenty of fitness trainers who work for a gym and the owner of that gym is somewhere overseas. Plenty of people

Speaker 4 work in a restaurant and the owner of the restaurant lives overseas. You can live and you can run a business from anywhere in the world right now.

Speaker 4 So the problem that we face is that you're describing, on one hand, you say we need to tax it at the point of sale, which is a consumption tax.

Speaker 3 It's not expensive. It's tax on profits.
Okay.

Speaker 4 And then you say a tax on profit. And then you say, oh, but then we'll stop profit shifting.
By the way, I'm also actually all for this idea of stopping profit.

Speaker 4 I've already said, I think it's utterly ridiculous the way that many of these global companies are treated. And if we don't stop that, then all the money just flows out to the tech companies.

Speaker 4 So I'm with you on that. But when you say tax the rich, the actual people who own the companies, those people can just be anywhere right now.

Speaker 3 But their revenues can't.

Speaker 3 Their customers are where their customers are. Their customers are where their customers are.
Listen, Amazon doesn't pay any UK tax, doesn't pay any U.S. tax.
Where are the customers? In the UK,

Speaker 3 U.S. Do you really think it's impossible for us to tax that?

Speaker 4 Well, you're talking about taxing people at 10 million plus, right? So this is a lot of startup entrepreneurs.

Speaker 3 Jeff Bezos is a lot more than 10 million.

Speaker 3 Jeff Bezos is worth a lot more than 10 million.

Speaker 4 But you talk about anyone above 10 million is on your radar.

Speaker 3 You don't want people worth £11 million to be paying more than $10 million.

Speaker 4 I'm not just talking about, it's not that.

Speaker 2 Dan, you're worth more than £10 million. So if we tax people on,

Speaker 2 as Gary says, that have more than 10 million, what are your options to avoid? Say if your objective was to avoid that, what options do you have?

Speaker 4 Look, if my objective was to avoid it, I pass a board resolution that we're moving the head office somewhere else.

Speaker 4 We move the intellectual property somewhere else. I pick up and move my family somewhere else.
And within about a week or two, we've got a WeWork office somewhere else.

Speaker 4 I've got a new house on Airbnb somewhere else. And I cut ties with the UK and I'm non-tax resident here.
And I can, I have a digital business.

Speaker 4 I can literally make my head office anywhere in the world. If there was a particular country that turned hostile towards our operations, then I'd have to withdraw service from that thing.

Speaker 4 You know, so that's possible, but it's unlikely that that would actually happen. But ultimately, if I choose to get up and leave, then I get up and leave.

Speaker 3 Now,

Speaker 4 the bigger issue is, would I have even come here in the first place? And then there's another issue. And here's the other issue, Gary, for you.

Speaker 4 You've just had 750,000 subscribers to your YouTube channel. It's 820, right? It's 820, right? So it's going up fast.

Speaker 4 I could have one of my analysts at a consulting company do a valuation of your brand and do a valuation of your YouTube channel.

Speaker 4 We could say this is a fast-growth media company and it's worth 11 million, right?

Speaker 4 So we could come up with a forecast and a projection and we say Gary's Economics is actually a new fast growth media brand. It's worth 11 million.

Speaker 4 Now, your channel, now you have to pay $100,000 a year in extra taxes because you're a millionaire.

Speaker 3 So 1% on wealth above 10 million, on 11 million, is going to be 10 grand taxes.

Speaker 4 Oh, you're saying only on the part above? That's how taxes work. So it's not on everything.
It's okay. So it's a marginal tax.
That's how taxes work, though.

Speaker 3 It's a both.

Speaker 3 So, okay.

Speaker 4 So, but is it fair that, like, who gets to decide what wealth is wealth and what it's worth? Because wealth, let's just hear me out. Wealth is a technical term for unrealized gains, right?

Speaker 4 It's not real.

Speaker 4 You know, someone buys a house for 20 grand and it's worth 200 grand.

Speaker 4 They've still got the same house, but now they've got wealth.

Speaker 4 If someone starts a business and a tiny little seed investor puts in a little angel investment, now they've got wealth on paper. But who gets to say what is wealth?

Speaker 4 Like, for example,

Speaker 4 If you introduce wealth taxes, theoretically that will actually reduce the value of wealth of things anyway, because things inside that economy are now subject to a disadvantage.

Speaker 4 So therefore, investors will be unlikely to invest in them to a certain point. And also, people start cutting and dodging and weaving and ducking and weaving.

Speaker 4 So they say, oh, our UK operation is worth 10 million. So we're now going to start a second company over in some other country and make sure that's where the wealth accumulates.

Speaker 4 So it's incredibly difficult because it is just unrealized gains. I know.

Speaker 3 I know it's difficult. Yeah.
I know these guys have the best accountants. I know it's difficult.

Speaker 4 So what if there was an easier solution?

Speaker 3 If there was an easier solution, I would support that. You know what I mean?

Speaker 4 It's called economic freedom. The economic freedom index.

Speaker 3 Okay, well, this is what I'm doing with that. Give them more economic freedom and then they'll be rich.

Speaker 4 Yeah, so this diagram here basically says the most free countries have less than 10% poverty. In fact, less than 7% poverty.
As soon as you reduce economic freedom, it jumps to 30% poverty.

Speaker 4 You reduce economic freedom again and it jumps up to huge, huge amounts of poverty. So these countries here are the least economically free and these countries are the most economically free.

Speaker 4 The countries that get in the way of your economic freedom have more poverty and the countries that let people make decisions for their own life.

Speaker 3 What you're saying is if the governments of our countries cut taxes on us, the three multi-millionaires sitting in this table, that will improve the lives of the ordinary British and American people.

Speaker 3 I'll give you a real life example.

Speaker 4 I'll give you a real life example. I know of a company that was going to give pay rises to its employees and then national insurance went up and instead of.

Speaker 3 National Insurance is a tax on employment. Yeah.

Speaker 3 I'm saying to to reduce that i'm saying to reduce tax on i want your viewers the viewers here to be paying less tax okay whilst multi-millionaires pay more tax good in theory but

Speaker 4 of if you could tax rich people 1% of their wealth above 10 million I did a back of a napkin calculation you might be able to get 20 billion yeah right that's if they don't leave that's if they don't respond to it if they just happily pay it you get 20 billion okay that's less than a week worth of current government spending so the government's out of control 1.2 trillion a year of government spending is now what they spend.

Speaker 3 Okay, so let's cut that, get that 20 billion and cut the taxes for the viewers.

Speaker 4 Cut their income. So that works out about 250 a year.

Speaker 3 Okay, so let's do more. Let's make it 60 billion.

Speaker 4 So then you tax 3% above wealth. Yeah.
Do that. And then you also bring it down.
Bear in mind. This is what governments do.

Speaker 3 You make five or six billion. Yeah, and then that's what they know what they do.
That's what they did in the Second World War, and that's why my dad could afford a house.

Speaker 4 What they actually, that's not why he could afford a house.

Speaker 3 Okay, all right. Well, who's buying, if ordinary people are losing their houses and the wealth, which they are, yeah, and we're getting richer, who is it who is now owning the houses if it is not

Speaker 4 the government used to own the houses and then they sold government wealth is collapsing.

Speaker 3 Government wealth is collapsing.

Speaker 4 But what they did is they sold the houses to the people.

Speaker 3 Okay, but but ordinary millions.

Speaker 4 You can only do that once. And they did it for the baby boomer.

Speaker 3 So you think it's our viewers who have got my houses now? Who the viewers

Speaker 3 going, Daniel? Where is the wealth going? Who has the wealth now? Who is getting rich?

Speaker 3 Who's getting the wealth that is lost by our viewers?

Speaker 4 I'll tell you where the biggest amounts of of money are going the biggest amounts of money uh since the pandemic uh 11 trillion went just to the value of seven companies that own tech technology so the biggest seven companies in the usa 11 trillion has you don't want their billionaire owners to pay more tax well would that help the uk Well if you use that money to reduce tax on working people, then it would help.

Speaker 4 They own shares in the USA. They're US citizens.
Yes. So that doesn't help us here.

Speaker 3 But it will help the American consumer. And then we can export the American consumer.
And it will mean the American consumer has money.

Speaker 3 And then it will show British people how much you can achieve by taxing the super rich. We can raise tax on our super rich here.

Speaker 3 And then what I want is these guys to be taxed so much that they start to sell assets. And then ordinary British people can buy assets again.

Speaker 3 Because what I want is our viewers to be able to own things, to be able to own their own homes.

Speaker 2 When I hear this, I... admittedly don't know as much about these issues as you guys do, but when I hear that there's these seven tech companies in the US, my brain goes, can't we have one here?

Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 Can't we start? And then, so my brain goes, How, what conditions do we have to create?

Speaker 2 Yeah. What conditions do we have to create to have one of those seven tech companies here, especially in this sort of AI world we're heading towards?

Speaker 2 Where when I was reading through the stats, most of the investment in AI, which is going to be hugely destabilizing across every industry-from driving to

Speaker 2 any form of knowledge work, even podcasting.

Speaker 3 I can play you a podcast now,

Speaker 2 which sounds exactly like me, which has a 4.6 star rating on Apple, which was written by AI in my voice, published by AI. Wild.
And who's accruing the value there?

Speaker 2 Well, it's a company in America called 11 Labs and it's bloody open AI.

Speaker 3 And I go,

Speaker 2 why can't we have those companies here?

Speaker 4 We need them here.

Speaker 2 Because China and the US are dominating this next revolution.

Speaker 2 And I worry as a bystander that if we don't create entrepreneurship-friendly environments here,

Speaker 2 we are going to become India.

Speaker 3 If you want businesses to thrive, you don't need just a good environment for entrepreneurs. You also need people to have money that they can spend.

Speaker 3 And we are in a country where increasingly most of the people out there have almost nothing left over at the end of the month.

Speaker 2 So they can barely pay the bills. Those companies are selling globally, right? So they don't need any particular company to do well.
They just sell to anywhere.

Speaker 2 So like OpenAI, ChatGPT, we're all using that bloody product and paying our $20, $30 a month.

Speaker 3 Yeah, where do they actually get their money from, right? They get their money from selling data to the rich, right?

Speaker 2 My point was making the environment more friendly for entrepreneurs.

Speaker 2 Because when I start a company, I am at a, I can't explain the disadvantage I'm at at the moment if I start that kind of company here.

Speaker 2 There's no investors and then all the talent seems to flock over to San Francisco.

Speaker 2 So the guys that built the British guys that built an AI company called Fixer, which I was going to invest in, all British lads from London. They went over to San Francisco.
They're like 25-year-olds.

Speaker 2 They've just raised at a 60 million valuation. They're in this room, this building in San Francisco, full of entrepreneurs, and they're pumping knowledge and capital into this room.

Speaker 3 With all due respect, Stephen, you're not a great example for the fact that it's impossible to start a successful online brand in the UK. Facts.

Speaker 3 But I also realize that. But the problem of...

Speaker 4 But he started when things were different.

Speaker 2 But I also realize I don't like using personal examples because there's a huge amount of privilege.

Speaker 3 Okay, is there a chat GPT in Germany? No. Is there a chat GPT in France? No.
Is there a Chat GPT in Australia? No. No.
Is there a ChatGPT in in China?

Speaker 4 It's China and... One sec.

Speaker 3 Yeah, exactly. What you have here is an extremely low labor, extremely high capital model, which employs extremely few people across the entire world that is focused in basically two cities.
Yep.

Speaker 3 Good luck competing with that.

Speaker 2 How do we create an environment where the UK can start to build some of these companies which are going to capitalize on this next technological revolution?

Speaker 2 If you were Prime Minister, what would you do?

Speaker 3 I think you need to look realistically about what companies do we have a chance of growing. You know, I'm not an expert in AI, but I think trying to compete with San Francisco and London would

Speaker 3 probably not work.

Speaker 4 Why?

Speaker 3 Try and do it. You know, try and do it.
And listen, I know that you can get a lot of likes saying, Let's just invest in AI, let's just invest it.

Speaker 3 Only one city in the world outside of China has managed it. China has managed it by basically state capitalism.

Speaker 3 You know, this is very similar in a sense to what we had with microelectronics in Japan in the 80s, right?

Speaker 3 When you have a new industry, especially these industries which are very capital intense and don't employ many people, you get a first-mover advantage. They tend to win.

Speaker 3 Eventually, often they get undercut by cheaper rivals. And that does happen.
You know, that does happen. And you might start in AI.
I don't think AI is going to become a massive, massive employer.

Speaker 3 Of course, you know, a lot of countries are going to be like, because basically it sounds good. We're going to invest in AI.
We're going to invest in AI.

Speaker 3 Personally, I think we should be looking at what does the British person need? You know, we live in a country where the housing stock is falling apart.

Speaker 2 If we say AI, when we talk about AI, I think we're actually talking about technology because even

Speaker 2 a podcast like this, you don't think of this as an AI company, but actually, now the editing process, the scripting process, the transcription process, even YouTube itself is an AI company.

Speaker 2 So it's really technology we're speaking about here. And I'm wondering why we can't create a better environment in the UK to start launching and building some of these technology companies.

Speaker 2 We've even...

Speaker 3 I think we should. And I think

Speaker 3 we should be looking at reducing taxes on people who work and make money. This is what I've been saying for the whole time.
What about the whole company?

Speaker 4 What about people who start companies?

Speaker 3 Yeah, we should reduce their taxes on the income that they make.

Speaker 3 But then if they start owning a £50 million company, are you telling me, if you come to me and I say, all right, you want to start a company, we tax you very, very little on a company that you start.

Speaker 3 If that company becomes worth 20, 30, 40 million quid, then we're going to start taxing you. You're going to come and say to me, oh, no, sorry, 50 million is not enough for me.

Speaker 2 So can I ask a question on that? So my company was valued at

Speaker 2 50, whatever, 100 million.

Speaker 2 Congratulations. And I still had, because I hadn't had an exit event,

Speaker 2 I still had 10,000 pounds, 20,000 pounds in my bank account. Are you saying at the point when I sell the company or are you saying just because I have shares in the company?

Speaker 3 I think you can structure it in a number of ways. You can structure it in a number of ways.
My preferred way is to stop people from hoarding enormous amounts of wealth for enormous amounts of time.

Speaker 3 That's basically my preferred method. There's also the wealth tax method.
There's also capital gains as a method. There's a lot of different ways here.
There's a lot of different ways here.

Speaker 3 But you have to deal with the problem of if you do not tax very wealthy individuals and very wealthy families, their share of the pie will obviously grow over time and they will And they are, as we are watching, squeezing out ordinary families.

Speaker 3 You have to deal with that.

Speaker 2 My friend sold his company in the UK, it's a company everybody knows.

Speaker 2 And he, I remember him saying to me at the time, it was in the middle of the pandemic. He had got this big exit event.
I think he'd made 300 million. And he goes, I'm off.
I go, where are you going?

Speaker 2 He goes, I'm going to go to Dubai and Monaco and live between the two. And I said to him, explain to me why.

Speaker 2 He goes, well, the amount of tax I'd have to pay in the UK is equivalent to me paying 20 million rent in the UK for the next six or seven years, which he'd have to stay here for.

Speaker 2 So he went and he pops back in every now and then, but it meant that he could keep that 150 million, whatever tax he would pay, never had to pay it to the UK, is living this high-flying life now in Dubai, drops into Monaco every now and then.

Speaker 2 And I remember him saying to me, well, Steve, I'd have to pay 20 million rent a year to live here. And he went on to say, the UK product just isn't worth it.

Speaker 2 He goes, crime, I'm going to get my Rolex robbed off me. He goes, the healthcare system isn't the best.
The education system isn't necessarily the best. And the particular one was crime, which is

Speaker 2 I'll get mugged walking through

Speaker 2 London streets.

Speaker 3 Stephen, if you allow British people who own £300 million of British assets to technically live in Monaco and not pay tax, then you will get crime.

Speaker 3 And you will have dirty streets and you will have a bad healthcare system and you will have education.

Speaker 3 Because if you give all of the wealth to a group of people who do not tax, there'll be nothing left to provide things like healthcare and education for ordinary people. It's not unconnected.

Speaker 4 These people are not technically living there. They're moving out.
My friends have moved out of the country they don't come back to the uk they've left and they leave with

Speaker 4 they typically build globally and pay no tax they typically build globally business okay it's not that they build it it was a global business they don't pay no tax they pay extortionate amounts of tax right anyone who's here is paying extraordinary taxes more than they've ever paid before one percent pays 30

Speaker 4 10 pays 60 of

Speaker 4 1.2 trillion a year

Speaker 3 300 million how much tax rate he's paid in his life I have no idea.

Speaker 2 I have no idea. His business was global, though.
His biggest customer was the U.S.

Speaker 3 So I pay 60% and our viewers will pay 30%, 40%, 50%.

Speaker 3 Do you think it's fair that your 300 million guy pays his two or three?

Speaker 2 I have no idea what he pays.

Speaker 3 Well, it sounds like he didn't pay 50%.

Speaker 2 Well, he dashed before he got the tax bill.

Speaker 3 But why do we allow it? Why do we allow it? I'm not allowed to not pay my tax.

Speaker 2 What could you have done to...

Speaker 4 If you are allowed, when you were in Japan, you wouldn't have paid UK taxes.

Speaker 3 Yeah, because I was working in Japan and then I paid Japanese taxes.

Speaker 4 Yeah, because you were living in Japan. This is the thing.
People can live wherever they want now.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 we're talking about... This is, I think we should stop obfuscating tax on people's work from tax on the assets that they're doing.

Speaker 4 So I'm talking about entrepreneurs' work generates wealth.

Speaker 3 So when you're- So if I earn a business, if I earn a billion pounds of British houses,

Speaker 3 and then I say I live in Dubai

Speaker 3 and I'm getting the rent on a billion pounds of houses, which should probably be something like

Speaker 3 that's going to be something like 50 million pounds a year. So I'm getting 50, 60 million pounds a year of rent from British people.
Yeah. And that gets paid to me from British people.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 And I pay, and I don't pay tax. I live in Dubai.
Do you think that's fair? No. All right.
So let's change that. Let's make people pay taxes.

Speaker 2 We're a question of where they live.

Speaker 4 Yeah, the question would be, though, how would you tax people, right? And how would you actually structure it? Because regardless of what you feel like is fair, this is the thing.

Speaker 4 It's not about fairness. It's about what you can pragmatically and practically do in the modern economy.

Speaker 4 You might say, oh, I actually, like, for example, if we said what's fair, a lot of people would say a flat tax is fair. You make one pound, you pay 20%.
You make a million pounds, you pay 20%.

Speaker 4 You make a hundred million pounds, you pay 20%. So a lot of people would say the fairest tax system would just be a flat tax on everything, right? That would be a fair thing.

Speaker 4 It's pragmatically, can you do it? Is it actually good for society? Should people be excluded from that? So it's not about fairness. It's about pragmatically, what can you get away with?

Speaker 3 All right, well, pragmatically, what we can get away with is desperate poverty for our viewers' kids. If you want to have...

Speaker 4 Can we zoom out just a minute, right?

Speaker 3 I want to zoom out. Let's zoom away from our kids.
Let's zoom out. Forget about them.
They're not going to be a kid.

Speaker 3 I'm a dad, right? I've got three kids.

Speaker 3 You are a multi-millionaire dad. Do you know? Probably don't have the same problems as our viewers.

Speaker 4 Do you know that kids born into the top have a 60% chance of dropping out of the top, right? 60%. That's the number.
It's called persistence. You can Google it.

Speaker 4 The persistence rates is actually only 40% for the richest, which means 60% dropout in the second.

Speaker 3 Do you think your kids have a 60% chance of living in poverty? Not poverty.

Speaker 2 Do you know what's interesting? We're all trying to aim at the same goal, I think, here.

Speaker 3 I'm not sure we are, boss.

Speaker 2 Well, I mean, that's fair. That's fair.
Maybe we want to.

Speaker 3 I suspect some of us are maybe trying to protect our kids. No,

Speaker 4 I want widespread affluence through the technological revolution that's happening, and I don't want the people who create that to want to go somewhere else.

Speaker 3 So, you agree with me that we should cut tax on wealth creators and raise tax on wealth hoarders?

Speaker 4 Well, broadly.

Speaker 3 Okay, so let's do it. Let's cut tax on people who are making income.

Speaker 3 Let's cut tax on people who are working hard, creating a good product, making a good income, and let's raise tax on people who are sitting there on 20, 30, 40, 100, 200, 500 million pounds of assets that they're going to give to their kids and they're going to use to dominate society and squeeze out the middle class.

Speaker 4 So who's an example of someone who's hoarding wealth?

Speaker 3 Mushi Sunak.

Speaker 4 So his family owns a tech company.

Speaker 3 His

Speaker 3 wife's dad owns a tech company. That's what I mean.
Which he will inherit and his kids will inherit.

Speaker 4 His net worth that is quoted is based upon his wife's.

Speaker 3 Yeah, but that company already exists. Yeah.
It's created now. Yeah.
It's worth billions.

Speaker 4 But they have to to reinvent that business every two years.

Speaker 3 Like it's a commercial. So you think that the reason, you think that if Richie Sunok's father-in-law stopped managing the company, it would be valueless?

Speaker 4 No, I think

Speaker 4 it hires hundreds of thousands of people and it's, you know, it's a big company. I don't know a lot about that particular company, but I know it's a tech company.

Speaker 3 Steve Jobs died.

Speaker 3 Is Apple valueless? No. Let's not pretend that these creators are the sole reason these companies are valuable.
Sure. You know, and what we're talking about in many cases,

Speaker 3 you know, I was was a trader, okay?

Speaker 3 And I'm worth millions of quid. And, you know, now that is just assets.
I just own the assets. I own the assets.
And that will grow and it will grow and it will grow and it will grow.

Speaker 3 And that will squeeze out and squeeze out and squeeze out and squeeze out our viewers. And I'll give that to my kids.
They don't even need to work. They wouldn't even have to work.

Speaker 3 They could just live on. I could live on off the wealth.

Speaker 3 Is that what you want?

Speaker 4 Do you think there are any opportunities for people today?

Speaker 4 Like if you're born into a poor family, do you think it's possible that housing being shit and we can both agree agree on that yeah but do you think there are new opportunities that didn't exist for our parents or grandparents but they do exist for people today i think the reality is for kids from poor backgrounds it is almost impossible to realistically get even financial security never mind wealth but why do you think you could do it i could do it he could do it but you don't think other people could do it

Speaker 3 Well, the first thing is I'm 38 now, so I'm not a kid nowadays. Listen, I won every math competition I've ever been in.

Speaker 3 You know know, I mean, since I was a little kid, I didn't even have a desk in my house, you know. I was one of the top students at LSE,

Speaker 3 and I still had to win my job by cheating in a card game. You know, that's the world that we live in.
I don't think that's a very replicable strategy.

Speaker 3 And it's very easy for people like us who've made money to say, Oh, we did it, aren't we? Great. Go out.

Speaker 3 And, you know, you've said that you think if young people go and work in a tech business, they can get financial security. If it was that easy, they'd all be doing it.
You know, they're not idiots.

Speaker 3 Our viewers are not idiots. They're trying.
They're trying. They want to find the good opportunities and they work.
Listen, I speak. I'm not not the one saying they're idiots.

Speaker 4 You're the one who says that they can't do it anymore. I see people do it all the time.
Like, I'm working in entrepreneurial people from poor backgrounds.

Speaker 3 Poor backgrounds.

Speaker 3 But then why are our viewers? You think all of our if it was that easy, why is everybody not telling you it's not doing it?

Speaker 4 Tell me why people aren't doing it. We went through a schooling system that taught us how to get an office job.
Okay. Right.
We went through a schooling system to prepare us for a

Speaker 4 world that doesn't really exist anymore, which is the Industrial Revolution world. And you have to go through a process of figuring out how it really works.

Speaker 4 So, what I see is that most often the people who do really well financially who are young, they dropped out of school, they dropped out of university, they started learning how to do things by doing their own research, they start their own business or co-found a business, they take a very alternative path.

Speaker 4 None of that was taught to us at school. None of it's taught to us in normal society.

Speaker 4 We have a school system that manufactures people for a set of skills that are not particularly valuable anymore, and we also get them in debt for those skills.

Speaker 4 When people sidestep that and say, okay, I'm not going to get into university debt. I'm just going to go off and actually figure out how the world works.
There's actually loads of opportunities.

Speaker 3 Okay. So I guess we've sorted it then.
All of our viewers need to do is go and buy Dan's book, become an entrepreneur and become a millionaire. It's that easy.

Speaker 3 Why weren't you guys doing it to begin with? They're idiots. The viewers are idiots.
They should be just being more entrepreneurial. It's as simple as that.
More entrepreneurial, start a business.

Speaker 3 Listen, I come from East London, okay? My friends can't feed their kids, okay?

Speaker 3 And if it was as simple as going out and being an entrepreneur, I can bet you they would do it. I can bet you they would do it.
Let us,

Speaker 3 I'm sick of multi-millionaires telling kids who can't afford to turn the heating on, you just need to be more entrepreneurial. It's sick, Dan, it's sick.
But I, this gives people mental illness.

Speaker 3 It gives people mental illness. Tell them the truth, okay? We, your older generation, we took the opportunities and now it's almost impossible to get out of poverty.

Speaker 3 And don't just, don't just stand at them, wave, you know, your millions of pounds in front of them and say, if you were entrepreneurial like me, you could do it. You could have it.

Speaker 3 Because it's sick because they can't. They can't feed their kids down.
They can't turn the heating on. Don't tell them to be more entrepreneurial.

Speaker 3 Fix the system that drives more and more and more of them into poverty every generation.

Speaker 4 I find it very strange that you think it would be easier to fix the entire global economic system than to start a business and fix your own personal economics.

Speaker 4 The thing that I know that gives people mental health issues is feeling that they have no agency in their life, that they can't do anything.

Speaker 4 Your video where you talk about if you don't have a rich dad, you're screwed. There's no such thing as meritocracy.
You're never going to be successful.

Speaker 4 To me, if I had have come across your content at 19, 20 years old, I would have been screwed. I was so, I'm so glad that I came across people who said, Daniel, you weren't born into a rich family.

Speaker 4 You don't have any bank of mom and dad, but it's cheaper and easier than ever to start a business. Start by working for someone who's got a business, then figure out what's your opportunity.

Speaker 4 And there's a way. There is a way.

Speaker 4 I've actually worked with a lot of teenagers from poor backgrounds. And one of the things we do is we tell them, if it's possible for someone else, it is possible for you.

Speaker 4 I also worked in rural Uganda with a charity that did work with the poorest of the poor.

Speaker 4 One of the most incredible things I ever saw was a woman who started out literally picking food out of a trash pile.

Speaker 4 And she was basically,

Speaker 4 they shared with her how to start a chicken business, which then ended up as a pig business, which then ended up as a cattle business. And she ended up making,

Speaker 4 hiring 15, 16 people in her local community. The power of entrepreneurship is that starting with nothing, you can actually

Speaker 4 make improvements. I'm not saying everyone ends up as a millionaire and I'm not saying everyone ends up.

Speaker 4 uh equal but i'm saying you can make improvements in your life and the thing that causes mental health issues is the feeling of having no agency or no control over your circumstances until the world changes the whole economic system

Speaker 3 I never told people don't work hard. I never once said that.
Never once said that. Never once said that.

Speaker 4 You said if your dad wasn't rich, you'll never be rich.

Speaker 3 Which is true in 99.9% of cases. I've never told people don't work hard.
That's actually never true in 99% of cases. I've never told people don't work hard, okay?

Speaker 3 And listen, if you think that Ugandans should be more entrepreneurial, I've never been to Uganda, maybe that's the problem out there, maybe that's the problem in Nigeria, maybe that's the problem in India.

Speaker 3 Listen, I've never said don't work hard, okay? When I brought my book out last year, the hardback, I was at some event and I come out, I was drinking London Bridge, and I come out late.

Speaker 3 It was like 1am.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 some guy came up to me when I was unlocking my bike.

Speaker 3 Some guy from Newcastle, which is the northeast of England. It's this quite poor town.
There's a lot of working class people there.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 he said, oh, I've been watching you on YouTube.

Speaker 3 And I love your stuff. And

Speaker 3 this guy started crying. This guy started crying on the street, right, in front of me.
He's like, I work so hard, Gary. I work two jobs.

Speaker 3 um my mum's sick and i'm trying to help i'm trying to support and i don't understand why and and i'm sorry that i'm crying

Speaker 3 but nobody ever told me that it wasn't my fault before that's what he said to me okay and listen listen i believe 100 aspiration ambition entrepreneurial spirit i would never say see a kid that has that and say turn it off okay but the flip side of your if you just work hard enough you can make it is if you didn't make it it's because you didn't work hard enough and it's your fault and i would like you to sit and think very hard before you send that message to young men and young women in our society

Speaker 4 meritocracy doesn't mean that everyone uh

Speaker 4 ends up with the same result what what i'm trying to what here's what i'm trying to achieve i'm trying to achieve the people who have ambition who can go for it are incentivized to do it and incentivized to build jobs and build companies and what about the ones that just want to work hard and have a good family and take care of them and have a home and be able to turn the heating on and be able to

Speaker 3 financial security

Speaker 4 don't they? They need to work for you?

Speaker 3 Yeah, pardon? They need to work for a business.

Speaker 4 They need to work for a business, some business, right? If someone doesn't create that business, then where do they work for?

Speaker 4 We now have, by the way, we now have 11% of 11% of working-age people are now declared too sick to work, right? We have a huge problem in the UK.

Speaker 4 We also have 25% of people who are working age don't work.

Speaker 4 It's one in seven men don't work at all. Do you think they're lazy, Dan? I think the system is collapsing.

Speaker 3 Do you think the system is collapsing? The average British American

Speaker 4 is lazy. What I think is happening is that the technology companies are totally transforming and disrupting everything.

Speaker 4 And what happened is around the post-war era, we had good jobs. We had,

Speaker 4 you could work in a local thing. What's happening now is that jobs are going to the Philippines.
They're going to,

Speaker 4 technology does three things. It makes jobs more simple, which means them replaceable.
It makes jobs global, where you can move them to anywhere else.

Speaker 4 And then ultimately, it automates the job altogether and gets rid of it through code and software.

Speaker 4 And what's really going on in the last, especially five years since the pandemic, is technology has decimated the existing systems that we all relied upon when we grew up.

Speaker 4 And when I say the education system isn't really working, it's still pretending that there are office jobs available for people when they graduate.

Speaker 4 And it's still pretending that there's like 1950s scenarios available when actually my kids are going to be disrupted by AI. Everyone's kids are going to be disrupted by AI.

Speaker 4 You know, these sorts of things are the things that really we also need to be talking about.

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Speaker 2 I want to take this back to a point you were talking about earlier, which is about personal agency. Because I would like you, Daniel, to give the counter to your own argument.

Speaker 2 Because I want to make sure when we talk about solutions to this problem, start a business, be entrepreneurial,

Speaker 2 you can also understand how that might,

Speaker 2 that works for people with our brains and our mindset and whatever we had that made us do that, our risk appetite, our trauma, whatever it might be. But not everybody is wired in such a way.

Speaker 2 So that's not necessarily the best solution for everybody. And also we sit here with a bit of hindsight bias where we were lucky and it worked out for us.

Speaker 2 But when you look at the stats around businesses succeeding, well, you know the stats, it's like 90% of businesses fail. So most of them are failing.

Speaker 2 The ones that emerge from that, people like me, then we have a bias where we go, well, it worked for us and you can do it too. I don't come from money, so I have the same bias.
Like I watched.

Speaker 3 Well,

Speaker 4 I've built from scratch several times because I got disrupted several times. So I've had to start with nothing several times and build.

Speaker 3 But you start from nothing. But I'm a different type of person, right?

Speaker 2 And when we say start from nothing, you actually started with a wealth of information. And the whole game in building.

Speaker 3 Intellectual capital.

Speaker 2 Intellectual capital, having been through it before, being around that mentor that gave you the information.

Speaker 4 And also having access to a great market. Like having access to a free market is a big thing.
I was born in Australia and I moved to London at the peak of London's economic freedom.

Speaker 2 So this can't be broadly applicable advice, can it?

Speaker 4 Well, I think personal agency is broadly applicable.

Speaker 4 I got this friend of mine who woke up one day. He went out clubbing, went out to a nightclub, felt sick, collapsed, woke up and they'd chopped off all four limbs, right? So he had quadruple amputee.

Speaker 4 He was 19 years old. So he wakes up in bed and he basically says, I'm a quadruple amputee.
I was fine. 48 hours ago and now I'm a quadruple amputee.

Speaker 4 And he decides to make this decision in the hospital room that this is going to be the best thing that ever happened to him. And he makes that decision.

Speaker 2 Even that is a consequence of his him and his wiring.

Speaker 4 What I'm trying to understand is he ended up he ended up starting a clinic and it's a multi-million dollar clinic. Yeah.
I mean it's incredible.

Speaker 3 Not the rule.

Speaker 4 It's incredible what people do. But you only need a few people to succeed and the whole economy starts to improve.

Speaker 4 We actually, in this UK, we only, at the peak of our entrepreneurial, like blitzing it, where we're doing so well, there was only 40,000 scale-ups.

Speaker 4 40,000 companies were creating jobs growth, higher wages, investment into the company, into the country.

Speaker 4 You know, it's only 1% of people who pay 30% of the taxes and 10% of people who pay 60% of the taxes.

Speaker 4 So you only need one in 100 to actually create something that's valuable and you get an extra 30% of taxes.

Speaker 2 But so that, again, is, we need this one, that's advice for the people that end up getting into that 1%.

Speaker 4 But who does everyone else work for? Like all jobs growth comes from entrepreneurs.

Speaker 2 So what are you saying to those, the 99% there? Are you saying go get a job?

Speaker 4 Well, you need wealth creators in the economy who are building something. Like you take

Speaker 4 Gymshark, people who work at Gymshark, they're super glad that this guy started the company. They're really happy that there's a company.
Otherwise, where would they go? What would they work?

Speaker 4 Where would they work? So if Ben decides that he doesn't want to start that company in the UK, or if he gets to 10 million and stops,

Speaker 4 then all all of those additional jobs are a toast they're all gone so are you encouraging the entrepreneurial and you're not encouraging everyone to become an entrepreneur you're saying those that have those that bias or that I'm saying we need a system that encourages the people who can to do and what about everybody else well every the flow and effect is that that creates jobs that creates wealth in the economy

Speaker 4 and free markets lift everybody up free markets just means that everyone's trading with everyone um you know it starts to like the whole thing, I mean, it's just a tale as old as time.

Speaker 4 As soon as economies are free and there are entrepreneurs starting things and growing things, everyone's life improves. Everyone's life get better.

Speaker 2 And what's your, what part of that do you disagree with, Gary?

Speaker 3 I think it's, it doesn't work. It doesn't work.
The only period, listen, the last 70 years are not normal, Stephen. The last 70 years are not normal.

Speaker 3 The last 70 years in Europe and the US, where ordinary people like my dad could work for the post office on less than average wage and buy a house to support family. It's not normal.

Speaker 3 It's not normal in the world and it's not normal in history. Most countries in the world are not like that.

Speaker 3 Most countries have a small super-rich elite and a very large group of extremely poor people. That's most of the country and it's most of history in this country and it's most of history in the US.

Speaker 3 You know,

Speaker 3 we talk about Charles Dickens. I read hard times.
I read hard times and this is written in the 19th century when Britain was like the industrial superpower of the whole world.

Speaker 3 And at the time, the government was talking about, should we tax these industrialists? And the industrialist was saying, if you you tax us, we'll throw our factories into the sea.

Speaker 3 And it just reminds me, you know,

Speaker 3 the only time we've ever really been able to provide decent living conditions for ordinary working people was the period after the war where we massively redistributed wealth.

Speaker 3 And now we're losing that holding of wealth of the middle class.

Speaker 2 Can you acknowledge, though, that that was a completely different time as it relates to being able to,

Speaker 3 you know,

Speaker 3 Nigeria today, Brazil today, the UK 300 years ago, France 200 years ago. There is only one specific time that we have ever successfully provided broad living standards for ordinary people.

Speaker 3 And it was a period of time where we protected a broadly equal wealth distribution and taxed the rich at very high rates.

Speaker 2 And you can acknowledge that that's extremely hard to do because of the nature of the economy.

Speaker 3 100%. 100% is now difficult.

Speaker 3 That's the reason why all of our grandparents and our great-grandparents and our great-great-grandparents lived in poverty. And that's why I know I'm probably going to lose.

Speaker 3 And that's why I bet on the economy getting worse. And that's why I know poverty is going to increase.
Because it was extremely difficult to get that unusually fair share for ordinary working people.

Speaker 3 And I know we're losing the argument. And I know that Farage will win.
And I know that Trump will win. And I know that, and I know that things will get worse.
I don't think I'm going to win.

Speaker 2 So if you know you're promoting a strategy that is not going to work, and it sounds like you think is incredibly almost impossible, then why... would you not be more practical in your solution?

Speaker 3 Stephen, if it was impossible, I wouldn't be here.

Speaker 3 Do you think it's possible? Of course it's possible. Of course it's possible.

Speaker 2 But you believe you're not going to win?

Speaker 3 I'm a betting man, Steve. I'm a betting man.
I put my bets on. You know, I am...
If I get stuck in the world.

Speaker 3 Okay, so my YouTube channel is growing really, really quickly. And, you know, I'm obviously starting a bit of a movement and there's a lot of political support.

Speaker 3 And if it keeps growing, we'll get more political support. At the end of the day, I'm trying to tax the richest and most powerful people in the world.

Speaker 3 And most of these people will come out and attack me and they'll try and stop me. And I do not have billions of pounds, hundreds of millions of pounds to use to support my YouTube channel.

Speaker 3 I'm counting on ordinary people like your viewers to support and share my message. Now, listen, for most of history, that has not worked.
And for most of history, ordinary families live in poverty.

Speaker 3 I don't think it's impossible that we ordinary people can win and get a fairer share, but I think it's worth fighting for, Steve. So I fight for it anyway.

Speaker 4 He's right that for most of history, you've had the super elite. and then everyone else is down here.
And it's massive wealth inequality is almost the normal for the last 5,000 years.

Speaker 4 And almost everywhere you've got kings, queens, dukes and peasants and serfs down there. There have been economic situations that have been different.
Dubai is a really strange situation.

Speaker 4 It's a desert. It's inhospitable to live in.
It's the last place in the world most people would think or choose that they would want to be.

Speaker 4 And yet it's one of the most economically rich places in the world right now. They actually didn't start with oil wealth.
They were able to borrow money to build Dubai.

Speaker 4 But the low-tax environment has now attracted some of the world's most talented people to go and build technology companies there. And if you, I don't know, have you been there recently?

Speaker 3 I've been to Dubai. Yeah, yeah, a few years ago now.

Speaker 4 So at the moment, it is the most thriving entrepreneurial community on earth outside of the US, but probably even rivaling the US, that there are investors, there's entrepreneurs, and the wealth is going through the roof.

Speaker 4 I've got two friends who are personal trainers, fitness trainers. One fitness trainer has decided to stop working more hours because he's hit 50 grand a year and he now gets taxed at 40%.

Speaker 4 So he's basically decided he's going to earn right up to 50,000 and then stop working.

Speaker 4 And then the other fitness trainer went to Dubai, launched an online fitness community, and has just bought a $350,000 Ferrari.

Speaker 4 And one entrepreneur is super pumped and super excited about building a business because he's not overtaxed.

Speaker 4 The other entrepreneur has literally said, I'm not willing to do this because of how much I have to do.

Speaker 3 I just want to be clear. I've always campaigned for lower taxes on richer people.
I'm working people.

Speaker 4 On working people. Always, always.
But here's the thing, right? If I was to ask you, you've just become one of the best-selling authors in the country.

Speaker 4 If your publisher came to you and said because you're in the top one percent of our authors we're going to halve your royalties uh if you sign a second book with us you wouldn't sign a second book with them you'd go to another publisher who says we'll pay you more royalties because you're so successful i would have written this book for free then i would have written this book for free in fact the first time i got offered a deal

Speaker 3 i said i said don't pay me any

Speaker 3 give your royalties away why well because if well what i'm saying all right fine i'll give my royalties away no but i'm sorry

Speaker 4 but i'm not i'll stop working i'm saying we respond to incentives that if your publisher, if Penguin came to you and said, book number two, you get half royalties because you're in the top 1%.

Speaker 4 Would you sign with Penguin or would you go with someone?

Speaker 3 I'm going from a £2 million job a year to run a YouTube channel. Do you think I do the work that I do for money?

Speaker 4 I'm not talking about that you do it for money. I'm just saying if you had the option to sign between two publishing contracts, right?

Speaker 4 And all things being equal, one's going to penalize you for being in the top 1% and the other one's going to reward you for being in the top 1%.

Speaker 4 Would you, of course, you would go with the normal, like if all things being equal, you want to write a second book anyway. It's the same for entrepreneurs.

Speaker 4 When entrepreneurs start companies, we can either start them in high-tax economies or with a stroke of a pen, start them in low-tax economies.

Speaker 3 I think the rich world is going to have to start rethinking the fact that it allows people, very, very wealthy people, to own enormous amounts of their physical wealth, go live overseas and not pay tax.

Speaker 3 I think that has to be revisited. for sure.

Speaker 3 Because what you're saying is, I want the benefit of being able to sell to the US market and the UK market, but I don't want the obligation of having to pay US and UK taxes.

Speaker 3 And you are correct that at the moment the US and UK governments allow that. And I think that's phenomenally.

Speaker 4 And that's taxes you on worldwide income.

Speaker 3 Well, only a small amount, right? So I think that realistically, I think that the US and UK governments have to stop that.

Speaker 3 But the way I see it, the US and UK governments and increasingly a lot of global governments are kind of being brought up by the elites.

Speaker 3 And, you know, we have Elon Musk as basically the president, right? And we had Rishi Sunak, who's father-in-law was one of the richest men in the world.

Speaker 3 Like, if you were Rishi Sunak, who, for our American views, was our prime minister until very recently, his father-in-law is one of the richest men in the world.

Speaker 3 He's got 700 million pounds personal wealth. He's going to be making 30, 40 million pounds passive income, and you're getting paid 130 grand a year to be prime minister.

Speaker 3 When you're making policy, do you think, maybe I'll ask my father-in-law at once? Yeah.

Speaker 3 The fact is, what you're seeing here is if you allow the rich,

Speaker 3 I'm never ever against entrepreneurship. I'm not against people getting rich.

Speaker 3 If you allow the rich to get richer and richer and richer, they squeeze the middle class and they squeeze the poor class out of things like housing, of things like space space in cities, of things like energy and of things like owning

Speaker 3 sharing government and sharing the media.

Speaker 4 Do you acknowledge that countries that adopt a anti-rich big government approach tend to collapse?

Speaker 3 Like this country in the 60s.

Speaker 4 Well, we needed to be. We needed a US bailout.
We needed an IMF bailout in 1976.

Speaker 3 But the US did the same thing. The US had even higher taxes than us.

Speaker 4 You take all the countries where the government becomes big, they meddle with your life, they're involved in every decision, right? Half the economy.

Speaker 4 I i mean here's one of the things this period is known as the golden age of capitalism it's the period of time when organic period this period 50 years after the second world war oh it's the golden age of middle class to be middle class you don't care about the middle class no no of course i do the set the set but the 70 years after the world war ii yeah where the government sold off all of its houses to middle class people so we got housing wealth but you can only do that trick once right so you can only sell off all the houses to everyone once which is why all the baby boomers own them well the

Speaker 3 Living standards collapsed after the houses were sold. There was a long period where the houses weren't sold between the Second World War and the 80s.

Speaker 4 When do you pinpoint living standards collapsing?

Speaker 3 Well, I think there's a few obviously big moments. I think 2008 is a big moment.
I think COVID is a big moment. I think it's the 80s where you start to see the wealth distribution goes.

Speaker 3 What matters is actually the distribution itself. So once you change the tax system, it takes a bit of time for the wealth distribution to change.

Speaker 3 But once you start, for me, the big thing is the loss of wealth holding. I want ordinary families to be able to hold wealth.
And once you you lose wealth,

Speaker 3 you lose the middle class.

Speaker 3 And you will not find me a single country in the world now or the history of the world that has provided good broad living standards without allowing ordinary families to own assets.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I agree. And take Singapore, for example, where everyone's encouraged to own properties.
They've got an amazing system in Singapore. They've taken.

Speaker 3 There's a massive government, by the way. Enormous government.

Speaker 4 It's 25% of GDP.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 they own the houses. They have a wealth fund.
They own all the houses.

Speaker 4 They don't own all the houses.

Speaker 4 They have a sovereign wealth fund that circulates houses through they've they own the housing they've solved they've solved singapore owns the house they own it the singapore government owns an enormous share of the housing uk so do you think we should own that house owned by pension pension funds people uh they force not force their citizens but they uh direct their citizens into home ownership so you don't think the singaporean government owns a large share i just know the you the singaporean government's only 25 of the economy but their big share of the housing so 75 of the economy is i would like to say by the way just to be really clear i've never ever once advocated for big government never a single time never a single time

Speaker 3 I want higher taxes on the wealth orders so we can tax wealth creators and working people less I don't want a bigger government I want our viewers to have more money I want our viewers to have more money and also I want to tax those super rich so that they stop squeezing ordinary families out of asset ownership it just yeah it seemed it seems like an obvious solution it seems like yeah it would be good solution it seems like Like, hey, who's got the money?

Speaker 4 Rich people.

Speaker 3 Not the money, the assets.

Speaker 4 Who's got the assets? Rich people, then let's just take them off of them. No, no, no.

Speaker 3 I don't want to redistribute.

Speaker 3 I am the only person on this table anti-redistribution because the redistribution is happening in front of our eyes. The middle class is losing its assets.
Government is losing its assets.

Speaker 3 Those assets are being accumulated by the rich. I want to stop the redistribution.
Please, please, I am the most anti-redistri, redistribution person in this game.

Speaker 3 We need to stop the redistribution of wealth away from ordinary British and American families.

Speaker 4 So the difference is for me, it's very simple, which is I really truly believe that free markets and low governments and less taxes creates more wealth in the middle.

Speaker 3 Dan, freedom for the heron is death for the fishes.

Speaker 3 If we have complete freedom, multi-millionaires like you and me will get richer and richer and richer every year and we will squeeze out and we will eat the middle class. Can I go?

Speaker 4 If wealth inequality could be solved, but everyone does worse, is that a good solution?

Speaker 3 Obviously not. The whole reason I do this is because I don't want ordinary people to collapse into poverty.
This is about people being able to feed their kids.

Speaker 4 So wealth inequality is not the problem it's collapsing

Speaker 3 that's quite contorted yeah i mean so quite contorted

Speaker 3 the problem is living standards collapsing living standards i am somebody who has made millions of pounds by understanding the simple fact that living standards are falling because of growing wealth inequality so living standards if they were to increase but they were super rich yeah is that a problem I think you do need to be worried about

Speaker 3 extremely wealthy elites. Yeah, I think what's interesting, you look at the founding of the United States.

Speaker 3 These guys, the founding of the United States conceptually is really based on these ideas of distribution of power.

Speaker 3 That's why you have the president and the house and the senate and you have this independent judiciary.

Speaker 3 They're like, we cannot allow power to become concentrated because they came from a Europe which had extremely concentrated power and extremely wealthy elites and extremely broad poverty.

Speaker 3 So I think that allowing a small group of society to increasingly monopolize power and wealth over time is obviously something we should be worried about.

Speaker 3 But primarily, the reason that I worry about wealth inequality is because I see and I bet on and I make money on the fact that it causes living standards to fall.

Speaker 4 By the way, I actually really agree with you. And the founding fathers of the US, they did,

Speaker 4 especially around the 1900s, they did want to break up monopolies.

Speaker 4 And breaking up monopolies was one of the big things that they did trust-busting, where they broke up standard oil and all of those sorts of things.

Speaker 4 One thing I do really see happening at the moment is that we have a stupid, outdated definition of monopolies where we use monopolies the same way they used it when they had the oil companies that owned all the oil.

Speaker 4 In the technology world, a monopoly is formed through an ecosystem. So Amazon, for example, owning AWS and Audible and this and this and this and Whole Foods.

Speaker 4 It creates a fortress that's almost impossible to compete with. And Google owning YouTube and Gmail and all of this, they create these fortresses through ecosystems.

Speaker 4 One of the things that I I do think we need to look at is

Speaker 4 compulsory breakup of big tech once you hit a certain time, because it's very difficult. Because, do you know, billionaires have two big fears, right? Keep them up at night, uh, having nightmares.

Speaker 4 Number two is high taxes. Number one is that startup entrepreneur who disrupts their business, and they want to kill that early.
You know, Steve Jobs at 24 years old disrupted IBM,

Speaker 4 and Jeff Bezos disrupted Walmart. So they are terrified of entrepreneurs in the middle.
Um, and they want to create government regulations to say, Hey, you know what?

Speaker 4 Let's cap entrepreneurs at 10 million. You can get to 10 million, it's okay for us, we're way past that point.
But Gary's our guy because he's going to cap everyone.

Speaker 3 I never said cap anyone at 10 million, by the way. Because what do you think will happen?

Speaker 4 People stop as soon as you have wealth taxes. People just give up.
They just

Speaker 3 said to me, Our viewers, if they said, if they knew they could build a 20-30 million-pound company, it sounds ridiculous.

Speaker 3 If they knew they would have to pay 20, if you could, if you were what, if you were 30 million, 1% above, it's 200 grand a year.

Speaker 3 So, if I said, if you you can have a 30 million pound company do traders stop just bear in mind right you make five percent a year on your wealth right so if you've got a 300 million pound company you're gonna be making 15 million pounds a year and I'm turning to you and I'm gonna say you know you've got to pay 200 grand a year on your 50 million pound revenue and they're gonna say you know what I'm not gonna start a business.

Speaker 3 I don't want to be worth 30 million quid. This is a cover.
You know this is ridiculous.

Speaker 3 You know nobody is going to say, oh my God, I don't want to be a multi-multi-millionaire because in 20 years time I'll have to pay 1% taxes.

Speaker 4 But most traders,

Speaker 4 most traders are earning what most people earn in a lifetime, traders can earn in a year. Most traders don't stop.

Speaker 3 No, no. Talk about that a lot in my book, right?

Speaker 4 So most traders just keep going. Entrepreneurs are the same that they're motivated to keep going.

Speaker 4 But when you have wealth advisors and investors saying, do not build a company in the UK because they're anti-wealth.

Speaker 3 I'm not trying to make the UK anti-wealth. I'm not trying to make the UK anti-wealth.

Speaker 3 I think the UK and the US need to be looking at a situation where you cannot allow people who own enormous businesses that sell to your country to live in Dubai, to live in the Cayman Islands and not pay tax.

Speaker 3 And I don't think that's a controversial position.

Speaker 2 I've got a question for both of you, which is if you are a young person and you're 18 years old now and that you're listening to this, but your objective really is an individualistic one, you want to get rich and you have a great future for you and your family, like all of us have been able to do.

Speaker 2 What would your advice be to them, Gary, at this moment in time?

Speaker 3 This is such a hard question. I know Dan's angry at me for what I put in my video, How to Get Rich.

Speaker 3 Somebody came around to my house and asked me this the other day. Obviously, I get asked it a lot because

Speaker 3 stupidly, I'm very public about the fact that I'm rich.

Speaker 3 What I did is not replicable. What I did is not replicable.
It's not. I'm sorry.
I'm sorry, but it's not. People always say, why don't you teach me to trade? Like, it's hard.

Speaker 3 It's hard trading and it's dangerous. And I think a lot of young men are getting sort of sold into trading and becoming gambling addicts.

Speaker 3 You know, work hard. And I wouldn't even say don't become an entrepreneur.
I've never ever said these things. Work hard.

Speaker 3 You know, if you think that you have an opportunity in tech entrepreneurship, go for it. Understand it's risky.

Speaker 3 I think that sometimes this message, just become an entrepreneur and you'll make it is a bit dangerous because I think most people who try to become entrepreneurs fail.

Speaker 3 And I think it's super, super dangerous. The reality is, and you know, maybe demo like this, maybe you won't like this.

Speaker 3 I think it is very, very difficult for a young man or a young woman from a poor family to become rich. And I think it's increasingly hard even to just get those basics of financial security.

Speaker 3 So listen, obviously, reduce your spending if you can. Don't buy into this like Balenciaga bullshit.
Stay away from that.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 work hard, study hard, try to get a good job. But also understand,

Speaker 3 we are shrinking the seats on the lifeboat. That's what we're doing.
We used to allow 50% to be secure, then it's 40%, then it's 30%, then it's 20%. You know, you've got a family in Nigeria.

Speaker 3 If a young person from like shanty town in Nigeria came to you and said, Stephen, what could I do to get rich?

Speaker 3 You would have to say to them realistically, listen, you are in a difficult situation here. You need to work really, really hard.

Speaker 3 But if you are able to make enough money to support a family, be proud of yourself.

Speaker 2 What I would actually say to them, so yeah, I have got family in Nigeria. For people that don't know, I'm by blood half Nigerian.
I would say to them that knowledge is really your life raft.

Speaker 2 So obviously there's a big tech boom happening in Nigeria, which is liberating a lot of people from that situation.

Speaker 2 So I would try and tell them to get on the life raft that is like knowledge of this new revolution. So from Nigeria, you can learn to code.

Speaker 2 And then the great thing now is that we literally have, actually, this is quite interesting. We're building a tech company in San Francisco called Flightcast.
It's live.

Speaker 2 Everyone can go look at it flightcast.com. And the lead developer, oh, and Guest Radar, the lead developer of GuestRadar is a Nigerian guy.

Speaker 3 But how many of those jobs in the Nigerian tech sector are going to kids that grew up in the shanty towns? I have no idea. Because I worked in...

Speaker 3 People ask me, tell me how to do what you did. I worked in Canary Wharf.
It's in East London. I could see the building from my house growing up.

Speaker 3 There was not a single other kid from East London the whole time I was there.

Speaker 2 Do you know to Dan's point about this remote work revolution where like work now has

Speaker 2 you can work from anywhere? And in our company, ThirdWeb, San Francisco,

Speaker 2 some of the staff that we now have are in the Philippines because they just have like great creatives there. It's obviously more cost-effective.

Speaker 2 Isn't this a huge part of what's going on in our economy, this digitalization and this remotification of work?

Speaker 3 It is, it is, it is um

Speaker 3 but I think for many people you know I'm sure you pay your workers in the Philippines very very well

Speaker 3 most of these people

Speaker 3 they used to have a half decent wage and office and now they're locked in their bedrooms barely paying the bills yeah in the Philippines not in the Philippines the Philippine guys are balling out

Speaker 3 the Philippines is booming at the moment yeah so you think the average person in the Philippines is living a luxurious life have you if you uh what's happening at the moment do you think the average person in the Philippines is living a luxurious life there is there is this thing called remote foreign workers and this is a huge boom and the economics so the kids moved to the Philippines then it's great you're getting a great quality of life in the Philippines you know what when I look to the slums of Manila they should just get jobs I don't know why they're not getting their laptops out uh the the poverty in the Philippines is horrific I'm listening the Philippines beautiful country an amazing country I love the Philippines I've done a number of things

Speaker 3 at a rate that's never what is the life like for your average Filipino?

Speaker 4 Well, would you agree, though, that their economy is just getting flooded with money at the moment? Like, money's flowing in there.

Speaker 3 Money is flowing in, but it is not giving a good quality of life for your average Filipino.

Speaker 4 That's not true. Remote foreign workers.

Speaker 3 Well, we can remote foreign workers. We've got Filipino viewers to tell us what's like that.

Speaker 4 Remote foreign workers can actually support their, often support their economy. We can have a look at it.

Speaker 3 I don't know what the average wage is in the Philippines.

Speaker 2 Just to bring it back to this point, though, so I wanted to know from Gary. He said, work hard.

Speaker 2 If you're a young guy listening to this now, I was reading this really interesting article yesterday from the, I think it was it was from a major newspaper talking about the lost boys.

Speaker 2 And it goes to show that I think it's one in seven young men that is at a working age now are out of work. So there's lots of talk around young men in particular and how they're struggling.

Speaker 2 You'd say work hard, Gary.

Speaker 3 You'd say. Work hard.
No Blenciaga. But the big thing is,

Speaker 3 the big thing is recognise the situation that you're in. And I would encourage them to support my work and follow my channel because the lifeboats are shrinking.

Speaker 3 And trust me, we're going to get outkids in the lifeboats. We all know that, all right.

Speaker 3 And if those lifeboats are shrinking, if you don't, if you don't stop the ship from going down, it is not you and you and me who are gonna go down, we'll be fine.

Speaker 3 If you don't fight the political fight, I guarantee you, people like Daniel will.

Speaker 2 So, you're saying that they should also get involved in the political fight?

Speaker 3 You have to, you have to. That's what our grandparents did.

Speaker 2 And if they,

Speaker 3 if they want to become millionaires like you and me, and Dan, oh, it sounds like Dan's got better advice for that than I do.

Speaker 2 Okay, well, I'm gonna ask Danis off, but I'm just wondering, I'm wondering how your advice ties into sort of like like

Speaker 2 the young person who's trying to liberate themselves from where you came from or where I came from.

Speaker 3 You know what? I don't think I'm the guy to say that, man, because, you know, I had this unusual gift from a young age. I was very, very, very good at maths and I just followed that.

Speaker 3 And, you know,

Speaker 3 my sister, she's a poet and she wrote a really successful... Grime and musical about Dizzy Rascal's first album.
All right. She comes from obviously the same family as me, poor family.

Speaker 3 She works so hard. She works so, so so hard.
Two degrees. She can barely pay the rent.
All right. So I don't want to turn around to our young kids and say, well, I've got this talent.

Speaker 3 Follow your talent. Because it doesn't work, Stephen.
True. It doesn't work.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 Well,

Speaker 3 my sister does great work, but financially, for young people, following your passion, following your talent, unless you come from a rich family. Realistically, very, very rarely works.

Speaker 3 And I know it worked for the three of us at this table, but let's not pretend that everyone experiences the same things that we experienced.

Speaker 2 What would you say to that, that, Diane? And what's your answer?

Speaker 4 I think there's two economies going on at the moment. There's a dying economy, which is the Industrial Revolution economy.

Speaker 4 And that is all the office jobs and the factory jobs and all of that sort of stuff, which is very much being automated away and moved to globally.

Speaker 4 And at the same time, there's this new bubbling up. digital economy, which I'd call the entrepreneur economy or the digital economy.

Speaker 4 Both of these economies are kind of coexisting. One's going like that, one's going like that.

Speaker 4 And if you want to be economically successful, you need to stand next to the biggest piles of monies that you can. You know, unfortunately, being a poet doesn't pay a lot of money.

Speaker 4 And we all know that. That's not a surprise.
If you came from a very rich family and you were a poet, you'd probably be one of the 60% who fell out of a rich family as well.

Speaker 4 If you want to be economically successful, you need to say, what is the thing that's economically booming right now? Gary saw the finance industry at that particular time.

Speaker 4 But if we actually look at the finance industry now, it's in decline. and trading is being replaced by AI robots.

Speaker 4 People who worked in your career are going to be replaced by

Speaker 4 IT systems that basically do similar jobs. It's going to be, you know, these things happen.
We're going through a massive technological change. But at the same time, it's never been easier.

Speaker 4 to learn skills for free on YouTube. It's never been easier to join communities where you can get mentoring and get support.
There are communities of angel investors who do invest in startups.

Speaker 4 It's never been cheaper or easier to start a company. There's never been more software and technology to scale and grow

Speaker 4 in just in a short space of time. I would say do what Gary's done.
Gary publishes online. He's built a personal brand.
He's attached it to a recurring revenue model.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I also work for free for four years.

Speaker 3 I'm not sure how replicable that is.

Speaker 4 So build a personal brand, attach it to a business model that is where money's flowing.

Speaker 4 These are positive things you can do. We all have to play the cards we're dealt.

Speaker 4 You can always find someone who's done better with better cards or someone who's been dealt better cards and you can always find someone who's been dealt worser cards.

Speaker 4 No matter who you are on the planet, there's someone better, there's someone worse. You have to play the cards that you're dealt.

Speaker 4 You cannot sit around waiting for the economic system of the world to be changed. You have to say, you know what? These are the cards I was born at this particular time in these circumstances.

Speaker 4 These are my strengths. These are my weaknesses.
I'm going to play the cards that I've dealt.

Speaker 4 Personal agency is what gets people to feel good about their life, to make progress.

Speaker 4 And as soon as you play the victim mindset, as soon as you say, oh, you know what, the answer to all my prayers is Gary's going to change the system, you're in serious trouble.

Speaker 3 Could I just say one thing back on that?

Speaker 3 If we become a society of individuals who think only individually and never consider broader societal problems, we will become a society that becomes unable to fix societal problems.

Speaker 3 I am somebody who has made millions of pounds betting on the collapse of society, the collapse of the middle class.

Speaker 3 I don't want to be giving stock tips on the Titanic. Okay.

Speaker 3 I understand. I understand that we live in individualized societies and it's not popular to say, hey, you need to protect your society.

Speaker 3 If you don't protect your society, your society is going to collapse. And the British public, the American public, have a choice to make here.
What would they do? I'm here to protect these youth.

Speaker 4 What do you want people to do?

Speaker 3 I want them to get involved, watch my channel, subscribe to my channel. So watch your content on youtube instagram tick tock share it with your friends share it with your mum understand

Speaker 3 what and then push for change push for change like our grandparents did but what push the politicians to tax working people less and tax extremely wealthy wealth holders more so vote for the greens

Speaker 3 vote for whoever gives you that whoever gives you your share of the pipe so basically listen this is not football okay i'm not here gary staminson member of the green party

Speaker 2 i'm here to protect the working class so that's their sort of that would be their social and sort of um political energy would be to stand up and fight.

Speaker 2 But in their in their personal lives, are you telling them to start businesses, take big risks, work really hard, go for it? Because they can also.

Speaker 3 I'll defer to you guys on that. You know, I'm not a businessman.
I'm an economist. That's what I am.
You know, I made my money by being an economist. I'm a very, very good economist.

Speaker 3 My predictions will be right. People can go and watch my predictions.
At the beginning of COVID, I predicted the entire COVID crisis exactly correctly in May 2020.

Speaker 3 You know, this is, you know, I'm good at this. And listen, I'm never going to come here and say I'm a better businessman than you.

Speaker 2 And I don't, i'm pretty sure that i'm not i'm a very very very good economist this will happen is there something that i can do if i'm sat here listening at home i understand everything you said i believe everything you said i i believe that it's going to get worse for me do you think i should still take responsibility of my situation and fight to make my life richer better more safe 100 okay 100 100 because you you know and i'm sure you know if you're average british or american if you don't do that you're not going to be able to turn the heating on you have to do it.

Speaker 3 You have to do it. And I've never once, you know, I think my opinions are often mischaracterized as being anti-ambition.
You've read my book. Do you think I'm anti-ambition? No.

Speaker 3 I work my tits off to make money. And I want every single young person in this country to be able to make money if they want to, if that's what they want to work towards.

Speaker 3 But we've created a society where it's almost impossible for young people. Listen, I've been there.
I've been at LSE. I've been at Oxford.
I've been in the city. I've been in the media.

Speaker 3 I've been in politics. All of the guys at the top are a bunch of rich idiots.
We are not allowing these smart kids from ordinary backgrounds to get into those spaces.

Speaker 3 Why do we pretend we're not doing that?

Speaker 3 I disagree with that.

Speaker 4 You're talking about two types of elite spaces, elite space of elite universities,

Speaker 4 and you're talking about the elite space of derivatives trading. There's the real economy where entrepreneurs do their work.
Then there's the first derivative, which is the banking system.

Speaker 4 And then there's the second derivative, which is rates traders like yourself.

Speaker 4 These are places that...

Speaker 4 Normal people don't want to end up. Most normal people who grow up in normal households don't wake up one day and say, I want to be a rates trader on a double derivative of the economy making bets.

Speaker 4 Most people want to start a business that employs people and they want to grow that business and be successful.

Speaker 3 Do you think that starting a business is a realistic high success probability chance of ordinary poor people becoming rich?

Speaker 4 I know that economies thrive when entrepreneurs are active and it's not just the entrepreneurs. They create

Speaker 3 our viewers can do and most of them will end up rich.

Speaker 4 You only need 1% to improve the whole economy.

Speaker 2 There's a really interesting stat that says globally around 65% of ultra-high net worth individuals are self-made.

Speaker 2 Approximately 19%

Speaker 2 primarily inherited their wealth and about 16% inherited wealth but significantly grew it through their own ventures.

Speaker 2 So 65% of the ultra-high net worth individuals globally are self-made, does that not mean that if I want to become an ultra-high net worth person, it's going to come down to...

Speaker 3 Listen, we are just come off the back of the golden age of capitalism when ordinary people like my dad, you know, I grew up in Ilford, it's in East London, it's a very immigrant area.

Speaker 3 Most of my friends I grew up with come from Pakistani, Indian immigrant backgrounds. They came over with nothing, they worked really hard, they made money, they had their own assets.

Speaker 3 We had a period where ordinary people could make money and could make wealth. So obviously we are now in a period where there are rich people who made money during that period.

Speaker 3 But it's over now. I'm seeing ordinary people making money all the time.
Okay, so you're telling other people they're idiots. And why are they not making money?

Speaker 4 I'm not telling anyone they're an idiot. I'm saying...

Speaker 3 If it's that easy... Okay, all right, fine.
Go and buy Dan's book, book read it and become a millionaire because dan thinks it's easy i appreciate it become a millionaire

Speaker 4 being an entrepreneur but i suspect having not been an entrepreneur that most of the people who've read your book are not millionaires everything you've touched has turned to gold you turned yourself to academia you got an amazing qualification you turned yourself to banking you became two million a year you turned yourself to being a writer you become sunday times bestseller you turned yourself to content creating you get 800 000 followers and you and now you sit there after all of that evidence and say oh no it's all over, guys.

Speaker 4 It's all, I'm smart enough to do it, but you guys are not smart enough.

Speaker 3 If you think you can teach, you've got your book.

Speaker 4 If you think you can teach it. So you say that you're smart enough, but they're not smart enough.

Speaker 2 I wonder if we do have a bit of an education problem at the heart of this. Because I was thinking about your sister.
And I was like, right, if I was the CEO of Gary's sister, what would I do?

Speaker 2 There's two things I'd do right now. The first is, I go,

Speaker 2 what marketplace is really valuing an ability to write and write in an impactful way? I go, right, she needs to start an Instagram page. Because I've seen what happened with Jay Shea.

Speaker 2 This guy's pulling in tens of millions a year because he took like, you know,

Speaker 2 nice words that were motivational, poetic, put them on there. And I go, also, YouTube needs to get to YouTube.

Speaker 2 Because if she can talk like you, then she's going to do exceptionally well on YouTube as well. But the old,

Speaker 2 there's not going to be a great economy necessarily for someone who's doing poetry in many of the places other than what I'm saying is the internet. But in school, we don't teach this.

Speaker 2 There's no YouTube class for YouTube. And it's such a huge part of the economy.
I mean, mean, me and you have seen that. There's been this decentralization of media where the megaphone was only.

Speaker 4 It's growing at 20% a year.

Speaker 2 The megaphone was only...

Speaker 3 People watching start a YouTube become a message.

Speaker 3 The internet isn't.

Speaker 2 It's easy. It's easy.
I'm not saying it's easy.

Speaker 3 It doesn't work for most people, Stephen.

Speaker 2 For most people, no. It doesn't work.

Speaker 3 It doesn't work.

Speaker 3 Why are we pretending it does? But

Speaker 2 what I would say is if in school we taught young kids a couple of new things and we stopped teaching them about Pythagoras' theorem, which, by the way, chat GBT is going to do for you with your eyes closed.

Speaker 2 And we taught them about the new economy of the internet, about the ability to start a shop. And I, it's crazy that

Speaker 2 the school system was designed in such a way where they put me in an exclusion unit because I was so preoccupied with doing business deals at school.

Speaker 2 And my headmaster came on national TV on what I lied to and said, yeah, we un-expelled them eventually because he made the school so much money. But the system was punishing me for

Speaker 2 entrepreneurship and it wasn't teaching me anything about... the new economy, which is technology.

Speaker 3 Steve, do you think it matters if the percentage of young people who are able to achieve financial freedom and have a family is shrinking?

Speaker 2 So do I think it matters if the percentage of young people that are able to,

Speaker 2 are you saying attain wealth and have a family?

Speaker 3 Yeah, if I achieve financial freedom and have a family.

Speaker 2 I think that's shrinking. I think that's a really big problem.

Speaker 2 I think that's a really big problem.

Speaker 3 I agree. I know, listen, and I know you've got this podcast and I know you inspire young people and I think that's a good thing.

Speaker 3 I think it's a good thing that you inspire young people to go out and work hard and try and achieve something.

Speaker 3 But I'm an economist and what I see is the percentage of young people who make it shrinking.

Speaker 3 And I think if you combine those two things, you reach a really dangerous place because we go and tell the young people, it's there for you to start a business.

Speaker 3 And at the same time, the number of people who make it is 10%, 5%, 2%, 1%. And there will always be that one person who makes it.

Speaker 3 There will always be that Stephen Bartlett in every country, the world who's making it through. You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 3 The systematic issue matters, Stephen.

Speaker 2 Can we not change the education system so that when I was 16 and they threw me in the exclusion unit, which made me, which could so easily have made me think that I was a failure?

Speaker 2 Because my brothers who went, Jason went to LSE and became very much like you and now works in my company

Speaker 2 managing my investments. He in that education system was rewarded.
So I sat there as a kid thinking rich and successful, my older brother Jason, because he can do maths.

Speaker 2 And I thought, I'm going to be a failure because I like this thing called entrepreneurship. And I have ADHD, so I can't pay attention in lessons.

Speaker 2 What I'm saying is, if the education system was designed in such a way where people like me who were entrepreneurial, who were interested in the internet and couldn't stop playing video games, were clapped for and said, oh my God, double down on that.

Speaker 2 I think the net benefit when you think about what the backbone of the economy is, which is entrepreneurs starting businesses, would be profound for this country here.

Speaker 2 But I think that I believe this needs to be such a radical overhaul of our education system if we want to stand a chance of capitalizing on what the economy is today.

Speaker 3 Yeah,

Speaker 3 I think you could probably change the education system in a lot of ways that could improve it, but you're kind of changing the education system on the Titanic.

Speaker 3 My perspective is, I can tell you with a very, very high rate of certainty, if you don't fix this problem of the wealth being sucked out of the middle class, 95, 98% of people will be in poverty in this country in 70 years.

Speaker 2 I agree with you. This is the thing.
I agree that you can't have a group of people at the very top that own all the assets and all the money, or else, I mean, it's going to come from somewhere.

Speaker 2 And I remember the day that I printed off the job seekers allowance form when I was stealing Chicago town pizzas 10 years ago in my room in Moss Side in Manchester.

Speaker 2 I remember what it feels like to not have my parents speaking to me, to have all these CCJ letters and and bailiff letters on my desk and really

Speaker 2 have no answer how how to get out of the situation to the point that i was like shoplifting i'd call the justeat driver and then try and persuade him just to give me the food that was that was that was 10 years ago for me so i i it's not i've not forgotten the the those years of my life so i understand what it is to be in that situation and on an individual level i need some answers because i'm not going to wait for these people in fucking the parliament to fix my life for me so i need some individual answers and then i do also care about the bigger picture.

Speaker 2 So I'm not like here as someone that just wants to accrue loads of wealth myself. Of course, listen, let's be honest.
No one likes there's not many human beings that wouldn't like more money.

Speaker 2 So I try and acknowledge that bias. But what I'm the the big issue I have is is how.

Speaker 2 And from my personal experience, as someone that now employs hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people here in London, up in Manchester, in our offices, there are a set of things that would make me leave this country if it became increasingly less friendly to entrepreneurs.

Speaker 2 I reckon if we come back here in five years' time, I reckon I'll employ 500 more people in the UK. And actually, as you look around this room, you can see the age of them.
These are young people.

Speaker 2 There are things you could do to make me not do that.

Speaker 3 I mean, it's probably worth pointing out that we're not taxing wealth and you're leaving the country anyway, Stephen.

Speaker 2 No, I haven't left the country. Okay.

Speaker 2 I'm a tax resident here. I'm paying my taxes here.
And I have zero intent in changing that. I'm also on dragon, you know, so we're investing a lot of money in UK businesses.

Speaker 3 But listen,

Speaker 3 I want to raise, I want to tax only high levels of wealth, only high levels of wealth.

Speaker 3 And listen, don't get me wrong, I understand very rich people will complain and very rich people will say, just like they did in Dickens, I'm going to throw my businesses, I'm going to throw my taxes, my businesses and my factories into the sea.

Speaker 3 Stephen, your viewers are here.

Speaker 3 Listen, Stephen, your viewers are here. You are a very wealthy person.
They are paying 20%, 30%, 40%, 50%.

Speaker 3 You should be paying your fair share, Stephen. You should.

Speaker 2 I think that I should pay

Speaker 2 more tax, especially when

Speaker 2 I don't think my kids

Speaker 2 should benefit from my wealth. And maybe this is a controversial opinion, but I actually don't.
I don't think I should be able to pass down my assets to my children.

Speaker 3 You can't.

Speaker 4 It's 40% tax.

Speaker 2 I think it should be more.

Speaker 4 It's 40%. Yeah.

Speaker 3 I mean, let's not pretend rich people don't successfully pass their assets to change.

Speaker 2 No, I'm just telling you now,

Speaker 2 I think I'd be robbing my children of something from the background that I came from.

Speaker 3 If my child gets fucking, if my child gets tens of millions, let's say even, when i die i don't think that should happen but i agree people say when i talk about my sister people are like why don't you just give your sister a load of money listen my sister works hard she's a smart person she works hard she produces good work i want to live in a society where people like my sister are able to support themselves with the work that they do but we're destroying that society who would pay her

Speaker 3 the the customers you know this is

Speaker 4 you want her to start a business She is a business.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah, and I want people like her to be to be taxed less so that what I want is ordinary working people to be taxed less so they have more money in their pocket.

Speaker 3 Listen, the reason we had the thriving arts scene in the 60s is because we had a thriving middle class that could go and buy the new fashions and buy the new records.

Speaker 3 And then that created this thriving arts scene. Now we have a middle class which is struggling to pay the bills so they can't buy stuff.

Speaker 3 My sister makes theatre shows. The only people who go to the theatre are rich people now.
But back in the day, you know, theatre was something that was more accessible. You want the arts.

Speaker 3 I've got a mate who's a fashion designer, right?

Speaker 3 Nowadays, all of the business is super fast, super cheap, super disposable fashion or unbelievably expensive high-end because that's the economy we've created.

Speaker 3 You go to Japan, which is a less unequal society. The restaurants are good quality restaurants for ordinary people because a good capitalist society will produce things for the people with money.

Speaker 2 In the case of theater,

Speaker 2 where have the theater consumers moved to? Where are they getting their entertainment now?

Speaker 3 Well, what you have is a very rich group of people who will still go to theater and they will pay a lot.

Speaker 3 But then you have a large group of people who are relatively cash scarce and they will try to get their entertainment in cheaper ways of course you know i mean they're spending their time watching your youtube channel well exactly my youtube channel which is free by the way yeah but you get paid from it you get the youtube channel it's only in the last couple of months that i've started to make any money because i don't do my own um editing so and you know i mean you'll know but in the first few years you're paying yourself to do it you know what i mean like i think people sometimes massively overestimate the amount of money this is entrepreneurs entrepreneurs go through two three four five years worth of struggle to get to the point where they're successful And it feels pretty horrific that you say, oh, finally, when I make it, you take it.

Speaker 4 And then the advisors to entrepreneurs.

Speaker 3 Just £10 million is quite a lot of money.

Speaker 3 So, you know, you can be worth £9 million and not be paying anything more.

Speaker 4 But what if I just raise 1 million for investment into my company? Yeah. But that then, like I do,

Speaker 4 if I'm raising money all the way along and my investors are saying, I'm sorry, I don't invest in the UK economy because it's wealth taxes and all that sort of stuff, it's anti-wealth.

Speaker 4 And then I just have to move my company overseas.

Speaker 3 Well, I want to create a situation where the UK consumer is so strong that you have to invest in the UK.

Speaker 4 You don't have to be here to sell to them.

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Speaker 2 So do we all agree on this premise, though, that Gary's saying, which is the very, the ultra-rich, which we can classify as being worth more than you're saying?

Speaker 3 We say 10 million is the line that we campaign for. Okay.

Speaker 2 We think that they should pay a greater share of the tax. And then if you agree with that premise, the question then becomes, yes, but how? Yeah.

Speaker 4 Well, they already do. 1% pay 30%.

Speaker 4 I want to be clear.

Speaker 3 That's the top 1% of taxpayers, which is not the top 1% of richest people.

Speaker 4 Mind you,

Speaker 4 I'm also not necessarily saying

Speaker 4 what's fair. I'm saying what's practically possible, right? So like you could, you could come up with the world's most fair on a back of a napkin.

Speaker 4 This is what's fair, but whether you can implement it is a very difficult thing. The problem is wealth is completely mobile now.
It's really, you can work from anywhere.

Speaker 3 Houses, Dan. Yeah.
It's land. Is that mobile?

Speaker 3 You can't rip the country out of the out of the sea.

Speaker 4 There's very few. I've never met any seriously wealthy people who own a lot of houses.

Speaker 3 You honestly think that the entire housing stock of the UK is not valuable. Yeah, no, it is.

Speaker 3 Somebody owns it.

Speaker 4 78% is owned by baby boomers. They just own, they've bought a house in 1992 and they own the house.

Speaker 3 Personally, I think that that house ownership, especially when you consider mortgages, is relatively unequally distributed. That is, by the way, the most equality is.

Speaker 3 Young young people have now had the commercial property, the land, the natural property. Owned by pension funds.
So, the viewers own it, do they?

Speaker 4 No, they're owned by, if they own a pension fund, most of those commercial funds.

Speaker 3 If you have a look at money, what is the distribution of pensions? What percentage of pensions is owned by the top 1%?

Speaker 4 I wouldn't know off the top of my head, but with pensions, but I know that obviously wealth concentrates at the top.

Speaker 4 But here's the one thing keep in mind: wealthy group are not necessarily a static group.

Speaker 4 There was a study of the richest people in 1900, and most of those families are poor today, or they've gone down in value today.

Speaker 4 If the richest people in 1900 had just simply kept their wealth, there'd be 16,000 more billionaires.

Speaker 4 But they don't.

Speaker 4 You know, in wealth management, in banks, they have this thing called the succession planning.

Speaker 4 So succession planning is where they try and figure out how not to screw it up across generations, and they're notoriously bad at it. It's very hard to keep wealth in generations.

Speaker 3 Down in the 20th century, we had two world wars and a holocaust.

Speaker 3 That redistributed wealth,

Speaker 3 I would prefer not to have that again.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 I'm with you. I want an affluent middle class.

Speaker 4 I really want to.

Speaker 3 So, where's the wealth going to come from?

Speaker 4 You want to just, you're going to create your own entrepreneurship.

Speaker 3 Okay, we'll create

Speaker 4 economies that are friendly towards wealth creation and entrepreneurship.

Speaker 3 When was the last time you had a government that wasn't, let's grow, let's grow, let's grow?

Speaker 3 It's not working for the people, Daniel.

Speaker 4 No, the problem is that they need to step back. They need to let shrink, let shrink let shrink.

Speaker 3 Our viewers should keep a close eye on Donald Trump and Elon Musk because they're doing what you're asking for.

Speaker 4 It'll be interesting to see what happens, right? It's too soon to tell.

Speaker 2 If you were trying to grow the UK economy, would you not take America's approach? Because they seem to be much more successful at growing their economy.

Speaker 3 I think, I mean, of course, when we talk about slashing of the state, they're going to use these examples like, oh, there's this wasteful government building.

Speaker 3 Everybody wants to slash government waste. Of course, I'm not going to fight against slashing government waste.

Speaker 3 I'm from the UK.

Speaker 3 You know, I saw the austerity years, I've seen what's happened to local services, I've seen what's happened to things like the police, like education, you know, especially things like youth services.

Speaker 3 Um,

Speaker 3 you slash the state, you fire a load of people. You know,

Speaker 3 what does the state okay? Yeah, if you can get rid of state corruption, yes, 100%.

Speaker 3 If you can get rid of state waste, 100%, you know,

Speaker 3 this is how single mums feed their kids, Stephen.

Speaker 3 You want to stop that? No,

Speaker 3 slashing the state, I don't think it's going to work.

Speaker 3 To be honest, I think tariffs is not an uninteresting discussion. I think, yeah, of course, tax avoidance is something you need to get rid of.

Speaker 3 Really, I would like to take a step back, look at the country and say, what is the state of the country?

Speaker 3 What do people need?

Speaker 3 You know, we have a country here where the housing stock is falling apart and we're letting it fall apart because those houses are owned by ordinary people who don't have any money.

Speaker 3 If you want the country to work for ordinary people, you need ordinary people to have money. I'm always reminded of Mr.
Beast.

Speaker 3 He goes to places in Africa and he spends 500 quid and he gives a kid eyesight who had been blind for the rest of their life for 500 quid.

Speaker 3 Why are kids in Africa blind who could be given sight for 500 quid? Because they don't have any money. This is what happens when you drain your middle class.

Speaker 3 This will end up like that. You know, you know, I've got a friend who went to India last week.
He said there were people lying on the street outside with rotting limbs.

Speaker 3 You know, that is what happens when you disempower, when you take the money away from the middle class. You've got to protect the middle class.

Speaker 3 If the middle class had money, then there would be unbelievable business opportunities for selling goods and services like your business to the middle class.

Speaker 2 So would you tax Daniel more?

Speaker 3 I don't know if Daniel's worth more than 10 million pounds. It sounds like he is.

Speaker 3 He is. I mean, I think, I want to make it clear, right?

Speaker 3 You make 5% on your wealth. So if Daniel's worth £100 million, he's making £5 million.
We're only trying to tax you 1%. I think if you are worth £100 million, you're making £5 million passive income.

Speaker 3 you can afford to pay a million pound tax a year you're going to still keep getting rich the truth is even if we were to tax these billionaires one percent a year they would still squeeze the rest out this is not this is not about morality this is just cold hard economic analysis that i have made a lot of money betting on so closing arguments then chaps um i'll start with you gary based on everything we've discussed today um what is

Speaker 2 i'm going to ask you to to give me two perspectives which is if i'm a young individual in this country right now what should i do to protect myself myself and my family and to feed my family?

Speaker 2 What kind of behaviours, what strategy should I adopt there? But also then from a government level, I know we have some politicians that listen because they message me.

Speaker 2 What should politicians be doing to fix the issue that we're all clearly identifying, which is the collapse of the middle class, the collapse of sort of working class people and

Speaker 2 the increased wealth of the rich?

Speaker 3 I think what I would like young people to understand is that this gets worse. This gets much, much worse.
It will get much worse relatively quickly. Poverty will increase relatively quickly.

Speaker 3 It will become increasingly difficult, almost impossible to make any serious money. Prepare yourself for that.

Speaker 3 Prepare yourself when you consider your finances, when you consider your plans for having a family.

Speaker 3 This gets worse and it's going to be really, really hard. It's going to be a big mental health problem for a lot of young people.

Speaker 3 So speak to people and understand that. My YouTube videos are there.
It carries economics for people to understand what's happening.

Speaker 3 After that, you've got to do all the right things. Yeah, I mean, I don't disagree with you.
You've got to work hard. You've got to study the right things.

Speaker 3 I think it's a great shame we have made subjects like the arts a thing which

Speaker 4 you're not allowed.

Speaker 3 If you come from poor backgrounds, you cannot work in the arts. I'm sorry.
You can't pay the bills. You can't.

Speaker 3 So you have to go and study AI and computing and, you know, maybe social media, although we have to be honest, social media doesn't pay for most people.

Speaker 3 You have to realize the reality of your situation. It's very, very, very,

Speaker 3 very bad. But that doesn't mean you don't work.
That doesn't mean you don't aspire. You work damn hard because you have to.

Speaker 3 But if you manage to make enough money to even support a family, you should be proud of yourself. That's the number one thing.

Speaker 3 But recognize

Speaker 3 this can be changed. This can be changed.
Our grandparents, our great-grandparents fought for a bigger share of the pie and they got it.

Speaker 3 They got healthcare, they got education, they got housing, they got food.

Speaker 3 Our young people can have that as well. but they won't get it unless they fight for it.

Speaker 3 So I would encourage people to educate themselves, themselves, support my work, get involved politically, but also work hard, support your friends and family, try and make money because you'll have to.

Speaker 3 If you don't play politics, I guarantee you, the other side will play politics. And that means your kids and your grandkids live in poverty.
So you have to do both. With regards to politicians,

Speaker 3 I've got mixed feelings about a lot of politicians. The truth is, I think a lot of politicians are very rich and ultimately they don't care.
They're protected.

Speaker 3 A crisis of inequality looks fantastic from the top. And I think that's why the three of us can sit here and say things will be fine.
Because for us, they will be fine.

Speaker 3 And for our kids, they will be fine. But for our viewers, kids, they won't be fine.

Speaker 3 The politicians are not going to try and save you.

Speaker 3 I'm going to try and make sure they do it, but I don't think they will. Listen, my plan is not to get concessions from politicians.

Speaker 3 My plan is to get 5 million followers on the internet and bully the politicians so that they have to give us. what we need.

Speaker 3 So I would support people to get behind me, get behind my campaign, but also understand what's happening, educate your friends and your family, and just crucially to understand this is going to be a long fight.

Speaker 3 So be strong, keep your people around you, but be ready for what's to come.

Speaker 2 I am, I see hints in some of the things you've said recently of you going into politics yourself at some point.

Speaker 3 Stephen, I'm in politics.

Speaker 2 But I'm in politics.

Speaker 3 Listen, I do not want to be an MP. I do not want to be Chancellor.
I do not want to be Prime Minister.

Speaker 3 If we get to a point where I feel that that is something that is achievable and it is the best way to fix this problem, I will be open to it. This is not plan A.

Speaker 3 This is not, you know, would you like to be prime minister? I suspect probably not, right?

Speaker 3 Like, this is, I'll be honest, I am quite uncomfortable with even the level of public profile that I have at the moment, which is, you know, it's much less than what you have, but it stresses me out.

Speaker 3 And it's weird. We spoke about it before we were shooting.

Speaker 3 I don't want to, can you imagine? I don't want to be prime minister. I don't want to be an MP.

Speaker 3 But I'm serious about this work that I do. And if we reach a point that I think that is the best way to do it, I will consider it.

Speaker 3 But I would much rather be able to influence the MPs from the sidelines, influence the politicians from the sidelines.

Speaker 2 And for that person you just gave advice to who should they be voting for?

Speaker 3 Well, we don't have an election for, listen, politics is not football. Politics is not football.
Okay, this is not about I'm Labour, I'm Conservative, I'm Republican, I'm Democrat.

Speaker 3 You're losing your houses here. You're losing your houses.
Your kids will be in poverty.

Speaker 3 And you're going to see both Trump and the Republicans and Kid Starmer and Labour, who are supposed to be on the opposite side of the political spectrum, they will both fail because they will not take action on growing wealth inequality.

Speaker 3 And I'll be right on that. You know, bring me back in a few years.
I'll be right on that. And

Speaker 3 that shows you it's not about, I think this factionalism is unbelievably damaging to our societies, especially in the US, where there's so much hatred behind it, where suddenly I'm on this side, you're on that side.

Speaker 3 Look, we're going to shake hands after this. Nothing wrong.
We will, you know, there's no hatred here.

Speaker 3 But if you allow yourself to be divided from half of your country and you allow, we're seeing it growing tensions, racial tensions, gender tensions. If you allow yourself to be divided, they will win.

Speaker 3 They will win. So you need to vote for whoever is going to protect your houses.

Speaker 3 And if you want to know who that is, come and check Gary's economics before the election and I will tell you who it's going to be.

Speaker 2 Daniel.

Speaker 3 Nice.

Speaker 2 Closing arguments, personal and social.

Speaker 4 A few things.

Speaker 4 I read Gary's book and it's brilliant. And regardless of.

Speaker 4 Regardless of whether you actually like economics, it's a brilliant story. It's a really good story.
I read it in about two or three days.

Speaker 4 and it'll eventually be a good movie as well.

Speaker 4 I agree with a lot of what Gary's saying. There is a collapse of the middle class and it probably will get worse

Speaker 4 and the traditional middle class jobs that came out of the back of the industrial age, mature industrial revolution system,

Speaker 4 those are collapsing and it's globalizing. We're seeing technology move opportunities all over the world.

Speaker 4 And wealth inequality, it has a cause. Wealth inequality itself is a scoreboard and there's a cause for what led up to wealth inequality.
And the cause in my mind is technology.

Speaker 4 Technology is moving those opportunities around and it's changing things. We already have big governments.
We have huge amounts of taxes. We're at record levels of taxes.

Speaker 4 Wealth has never been more mobile. It's not about what's fair.
It's about what you can practically get away with. It's about what you can actually implement.

Speaker 4 And it's going to be very, very, as Gary said, it's going to be very, very, very hard to tax people who have digital businesses, who can live and work from anywhere.

Speaker 4 I know that firsthand, that it's incredibly mobile.

Speaker 4 With that said, at a micro level, oh, sorry, at a macro level, big picture, we do know that there is a correlation between economic freedom, where the government gets out of your way, and low poverty rates.

Speaker 4 And we know that as soon as governments become big,

Speaker 4 high taxes, high regulations, it actually drops down a category and we see poverty goes up from 10% to 30%. So it triples.

Speaker 4 So constricting economic freedom is never a good idea if you look at the data.

Speaker 4 At a micro level, there's never been a greater opportunity for anyone who's ambitious and entrepreneurial to go and start a company. It's cheaper than ever to start a company.

Speaker 4 You can do what Gary's done, which is publish content, build a following. figure out how to monetize it.

Speaker 4 You can create products and services and sell them to anywhere in the world.

Speaker 4 You're an example of someone who started with nothing and became a millionaire in your 20s and then again in your 30s with a completely different thing.

Speaker 4 He became a millionaire in his 20s and then again in his 30s is a best-selling author and a content creator. I did it in my 20s, my 30s and now my 40s starting from scratch.
So

Speaker 4 it's not normal that three guys our age could have done that over and over again.

Speaker 4 It's because we are living in a time where there is incredible opportunities, but you have to be tapped into those opportunities. You never heard about it at school.

Speaker 4 You never heard about it at university. You're going to have to learn the skills to get tapped into those opportunities.

Speaker 4 But there are definitely ways that you can succeed in the world that we're living in.

Speaker 2 And on that macro point, who should we be voting for?

Speaker 2 Because some of your thinking and policy suggestions through this conversation align more with Trump, Elon, the American mission now, where they're welcoming millionaires.

Speaker 2 They're trying to create a really entrepreneurship-friendly environment. They're doing the Doge dismantling of sort of government waste.

Speaker 4 I agree with Gary. It's not football.
You don't have a team. You swing.
You should be a swing voter. You should vote.
Every single election. You should make them work hard for your vote.

Speaker 2 And is Trump going to succeed, though? You should see.

Speaker 4 It's too soon to tell.

Speaker 2 But he made a prediction, so I'm inviting you to make a prediction. He said, five years' time, we come back here, we're going to see that Trump.

Speaker 4 I think a lot of very wealthy people are going to move to the USA. You're going to get a lot of people from all over the world.

Speaker 4 He's playing to win, and he wants rich people and entrepreneurs and investors to come into the US and be based there. He's creating golden visas and open visas.

Speaker 2 And the success metric here is the middle class get...

Speaker 3 richer and more affluent.

Speaker 4 And what I actually think will happen as a result of all of that, you will see rising living standards in the USA and you'll see a detriment to the places where those people leave.

Speaker 4 It's not a good thing to have the people who pay the majority of the taxes, which is 1% of people paying 30% of taxes. If those people leave, the bills get spread across everybody else.

Speaker 2 Well, we'll have to do a part two and we shall see.

Speaker 2 I want to thank you both for the work that you do because I'm a big fan of both of you. I watch Gary's videos all the time.

Speaker 2 Helps me to understand another perspective on what I'm typically hearing out on the internet or that I hear on Twitter about what's going on in the world.

Speaker 2 And I think I really respect and admire people that can do what both of you have done today, which is to exchange and listen to ideas in the pursuit of answers.

Speaker 2 And that's why I'd highly recommend anybody, regardless of whether you agree with everything or some things or just a little bit, to go and follow Gary's channel on YouTube called Gary's Economics because it's a great source of information from someone who has done it, from understands the world from another perspective, but also someone who's providing a narrative, which I actually think there's, as we kind of talked about before you started, there's a big gap in the market for.

Speaker 2 There are a lot of people like me and Dan out on the internet that are talking about entrepreneurship and finance and how to make money, but there aren't enough people talking about wealth inequality from the perspective as Gary sees it and that are providing more sort of

Speaker 2 collectivist and sort of society-wide

Speaker 2 solutions and answers and sort of explanations as to why that's ultimately happening.

Speaker 2 I do think, I do think, because I know you, Dan, and I hope I know myself, I do think that we all want the UK to survive.

Speaker 2 And I think we all believe that the way that the UK survives isn't necessarily a couple of ultra-rich people getting more money.

Speaker 2 It is sort of social mobility and it's allowing people that are at the very bottom to create opportunities and to succeed.

Speaker 2 We all agree upon that, even if we agree, disagree, sorry, on the causes and the solutions to that.

Speaker 2 I'd also highly recommend everybody to go check out The Trading Game because everybody's talking about this book.

Speaker 2 And I think it's, what, four weeks at the moment on the Sunday Times best list four weeks number one number one four weeks number one

Speaker 2 which is an incredible achievement but it speaks to what's in this book the way that the story is told but also the timeliness of this message so I'd highly recommend everybody go check it out I'm going to put a link below so that everybody can go and do it and if you just look at some of the um the the testimonials for this book it's profound i hear people describe it as like unforgettable on one end and then sad on the other end because that's the nature of the reality it speaks to and i highly recommend everybody go check out dan priestley's entrepreneur revolution but also your website has all of your resources and tools on it so I'll link that on the screen what's the

Speaker 2 at danielpriestley.com at danielpriestley.com thank you both for your generosity really really appreciate it thanks thanks for bringing us together

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Speaker 2 I would like to make a deal with you.

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Speaker 2 Thank you so much for your time.

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