Malynda Hale

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I'm Jane Marie, and this is the dream.

Last week, we welcomed my friend W.

Kamal Bell on the program to discuss, well, like how racist everyone is acting right now.

For example, ICE raids, which maybe feel more important to me than you if you don't live in Los Angeles, but it's really in our faces here.

Or the war in Gaza, or the removal of museum exhibits that talk about slavery, or how Stephen Miller, advisor to Donald Trump, gave a eulogy at Charlie Kirk's funeral, which was a rip-off of a speech by famous Nazi Josef Gebels.

Is everything racism?

That's a question I've been thinking about a lot, and I put out a call for folks of color who might want to discuss this with me.

Today, we welcome another guest who heard the call and said, Hell yeah!

So, um, why did you respond to my online call for people?

I responded to it because, one, I love conversation and I think it's important to talk to people regardless of what their beliefs are.

I'm very much a

let's have a conversation,

let's talk, see if we align on things, if we disagree, let's hear each other's perspectives.

So, when you just put out an online call, I was like, sure, I love talking.

I used to have a podcast.

The log line was everything begins with the conversation.

And that's really what my motto is.

And it's what the tagline for my sub stack is as well.

So anytime I see someone that's looking for a podcast guest or just wants to have a conversation about anything, I'm always open to that.

Well, I really appreciate you giving back to me about that because I was anxious about even putting the question out there because it seems like a no-doi kind of

question, but I was just finding myself getting really frustrated.

Sure.

Okay, let's let's start with: will you give me your name and a little bit about you?

Sure.

My name is Melinda Hale.

I am an actress and a singer.

By nature, that's what I've done my whole life, but I've been very involved in activism in the last 10 years.

And I'm currently the executive director of a non-profit called the New Evangelicals.

And we are progressive Christians that are trying to reclaim our faith and fight back against all the Christian nationalism that is plaguing the country right now.

I'm a writer, I'm a mom, creative producer.

I'm definitely a multi-hyphenate person, but I'm involved in a lot of things, but it always comes back to what my values are and everything that I involve myself in, whether it's artistically, politically, or just conversationally.

It's about just trying to make the world a better place.

You said coming back to your values and morals.

How were you raised?

Yeah, so I was raised in Santa Barbara, California, two very loving parents, still married.

They're going to be celebrating their 44th anniversary um uh coming up which is incredible and

no wild good for them they're the best they're the best um you know my mom specifically was uh very much a

person of faith, I will say.

And so we were raised in the church, very progressive church, very liberal, very accepting.

And I was really just raised to treat people with respect and have empathy and learn about people's stories.

I was exposed to diversity always.

My parents never allowed anything to be off the table when it came to questions or critical thinking or wondering about anything.

So I'm really, I feel very blessed that I grew up in the household that I did because it really shaped who I am now and has really informed everything that I do in my life from performing to activism.

The reason I

asked for people to come on the show and talk about racism,

I've been feeling like things have gotten really

egregious lately

with our president trying to reframe slavery

with various states and municipalities changing the way American history is taught to our kids.

All of this happening like this year, right?

Lots of talk about both sides in slavery.

And then, you know, like last week, Hurricane Katrina, I didn't feel like got enough coverage.

There have just been like a bunch of things where I'm, I, I just had this icky feeling of like, oh, we just backslid

many, many decades

with this person in charge or whatever.

I don't know if it's all his fault, but it feels very regressive and icky.

And like, we've lost the plot.

What are your feelings around that?

Am I off?

You're not off base at all.

Okay.

And I think it's by design.

And I think, unfortunately, the

mindset of this current administration and a lot of people that follow it is if you ignore something, it will go away.

When really, you have to address things head-on in order to make progress, which is why that's the difference between progressives and conservatives.

Progressive want to make progress, conservatives want to conserve.

And what they're trying to conserve is this, honestly, this white Christian nationalist

ideology and framework that serves that population specifically and ignores anything that happened in the past, but also ignores having to address it.

And here's the thing: if you feel guilt and shame about something, then you probably know that it was wrong, right?

And so I think when it comes to things like, you know, erasing slavery, changing museum exhibits,

you know, taking things out of textbooks, it's like, what is the the benefit of that?

Like, why are we doing that?

And it's because they don't want to be tied to the negativity of the past.

But again, as speaking as a black woman who is in this space a lot, there's not a single person alive that blames current people for anything that happened in the past.

That's not at all what we're saying.

We're simply saying that you benefit from it.

So let's try to level the playing field and make sure that everybody is getting equal access.

I mean, when we want to talk about the black community specifically, the reason that they are still behind economically and socioeconomically is because when you look back, one, we were banned from education, two, we were banned from owning houses, three, we were banned from having any form of generational wealth.

And when we did have our own infrastructure in our own towns, they were burned down by white supremacists.

So we've always

willing to acknowledge that aspect of history, but then you want to act like we're the reason why we're behind, then you're being very disingenuous about it.

So we're trying to figure out how we can get equity, how we can get equality, so that everybody's on a level playing field.

And if this is something that you say that you believe in, which your actions aren't showing that, then you should be doing all of the work to make sure that everybody has the same opportunity and the same resources and the same footing to get ahead.

Well, talk to me about the Christian right and white nationalism.

Yeah, just describe to our listeners how you view that.

For sure.

So, I mean, Christian nationalism, people have been sounding the alarm on it for years.

And I don't think that it has been taken as seriously as it should be taken because the Christian right has always been trying to infiltrate into policy because they believe that their beliefs are the things that should be driving America.

First and foremost, America is not a Christian nation.

The entire premise that America was built upon, even with the founding fathers, though I disagree with a lot of things that they thought, obviously,

for my community, like they, they were enslavers and they had us written as three-fifths of a human being, right?

But one of the things when it comes to religion is that everyone had, it was freedom of religion.

Everybody had the opportunity to believe in and express and practice whatever religion and faith that you fall into.

But Christian nationalists don't agree with that.

They think that Christianity, their version of Christianity,

is what should be making the laws, what should be in the schools, what should be taught to everybody.

And so when they talk about religious freedom, they're really just talking about freedom for their religion and nobody else's, right?

So

it's unfortunate because I make these jokes a lot, but if you watch The Handmaid's Tale, that is really kind of the ideology that they believe in.

They believe that women are only supposed to create babies and be in the home and that men are the ones that are supposed to lead and are the ones that are supposed to work.

They don't believe that women should be preaching from the pulpit, that they shouldn't be, you know, pastors, they shouldn't work at all, they shouldn't even have the right to vote, some of them think, because they're basing their current 2025 ideology off of an ancient book that has been found to be rewritten millions of times and is mostly man-made to be able to serve for their own self-interest, right?

I believe that.

They're also picking the wrong part of the book.

That's the other part is like, if you're going to claim to be a Christian, and that's the thing I said, I said, look, if you are going to try to govern from your beliefs, why are you not governing from the good parts?

Why are you not feeding the homeless and feeding the hungry and

helping with health care and making sure children are safe?

Like these are all things that Jesus actually taught about.

And they're none of the things that are in the policies that Republicans are passing.

I thought he was supposed to be changing the world and making it a better place.

100%, which is why Jesus is a progressive, because he wanted to progress.

When he was preaching, he wasn't just saying the words he was also doing it he was healing the sick he was spending time with the marginalized he was advocating for other people and that's nothing that the far right is doing he was spending like quality time yes with people yes that um folks these days the the white christian nationalists are

actually like going to court to make sure they lose rights and are imprisoned, et cetera.

I mean, he spent a lot of time.

I mean, I think that they would try to deport Jesus at this point.

I really do.

If he came back, I think that they would deport him because

they just don't align with anything that he is about.

Jesus was about who he's for, not who he's against.

And I think that that's specifically what

the far right is doing.

It's all about who they're against and not about who they're for.

And that's the complete antithesis of what being a Christian is supposed to be.

So

how do you frame it in your organization?

Like, how do you frame the fight that you have going on here with those kind of ideologies?

Yeah, so the new evangelicals, we really exist to empower people to reject Christian nationalism, but also to show them a better way forward in terms of their faith.

So, even if you aren't a person of faith, there is a place for you at TNE because we're empowering people to show up for one another.

We're trying to offer, you know, beyond our media content, you know, we have podcasts, we have shows, we do a lot of social media content, calling out Christian nationalism, but then challenging a lot of the rhetoric.

We offer educational tools.

We have an online platform called TNE Connect where we offer theology 101 classes so you can relearn the Bible the correct way.

We have book clubs.

We have community spaces for people that left their church that want to just still be involved in community, but feel excommunicated from those old church evangelical spaces.

And we have a lot of advocacy opportunities as well.

You know, we are starting a new leg of the organization called TNE Action, where we're going to equip people with different petitions, with different call to actions and ways to put your faith into action, because that's exactly what Jesus was.

He was about the work and not just the words.

So that is really what our organization is trying to be.

And we just kind of, we envision a world where Christianity isn't used as a weapon to hurt people, but it's shown as just a way of life that is led with love.

Can we give some examples of how it is used as a weapon?

Absolutely.

I mean, I think one of the most specific examples is with the LGBTQ community and specifically right now, like taking trans rights away and them trying to use Bible verses to,

you know, affirm their positions.

You know, Jesus never said anything about homosexuality.

The word homosexual wasn't even put in the Bible until the year 1946, which shows that it was a man-written prejudice

and bias that was put in.

So in a lot of the legislation, you know, they're trying to use Bible verses to dictate how other people are living.

I think also with this administration creating an anti-Christian

task force that is only meant to protect people from anti-Christian bias, which really nobody is anti-Christian or anti-far-right Christian because it's not what being a Christian is.

But having a reasonable conversation about that is like,

yeah, I mean, it's difficult.

Well, it's difficult because in Rome at the time of Jesus, people were plenty trans

and gay.

And you'd think there would be like a lot of writing about that if somebody had a problem with it then.

And there just isn't.

Sure.

And I think also what people fail to realize is that we have language for things now that we didn't have back then.

And that's what progression is, right?

So when it comes to identity, when it comes to race, understanding race, when it's coming to understanding status, whatever the case may be, you know, there may not have been proper language to describe it back then, but we have that now.

So it's interesting because I do, and this is going to come as a shock to a lot of people, I do watch Fox News a lot because I think it's important to see what the other side is saying so you can understand because I don't think you can properly refute things if you don't know exactly what's being said.

But if I were in the middle of America and only watched Fox News, I would probably think that every single human being I came across was trans because that's how they are talking about it.

Ad nauseam, you would think that that is an issue.

But here's the thing.

Trans people have always existed.

We just didn't necessarily necessarily have the language for it.

And now, because we have the language and because people are more accepting of it, they're making it seem like it's this big deal and it came out of nowhere.

Same with autism, right?

Autism has been around for forever.

We now have the language to understand neurodivergence, we have the language to understand different diagnoses.

So, people are thinking that this is coming out of the woodwork, and all of a sudden, and people are blaming things like vaccines.

And it's not that, it's that we have the language and the knowledge to now understand and accept and be empathetic towards different identities and different just different ways of life.

I feel like as so long as we still can't get that right on race, we're going to have a hard time with any of these other issues.

Yeah.

You know, if you can't convince a Christian that there's active racism

happening,

how do those conversations go?

When people argue against affirmative action, for example, or DEI, which is different than affirmative affirmative action.

But when they argue against that, I'm thinking like, this is feeling very much like whatever happened in the 60s and 70s wasn't really what was intended, according to these folks, you know?

I don't know.

I just get really frustrated because even using logic in those arguments doesn't work.

It doesn't.

And I understand your frustration because

people don't want to have to reconcile with the history of this country, but also maybe how they benefit from the history of this country.

And again, I think that that's where that guilt and that shame come in.

It's but it's a conversation that needs to be had.

And I think that there's no shame in acknowledging like this is where our country was, but this is what we don't want to be anymore.

And let's work towards that.

But instead, they're just trying to erase it and act like it never happened, which that's never

a good tactic to take in any situation, honestly.

We'll be right back with more of my discussion with Melinda Hale.

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What's one of the best arguments you've gotten in with these people on the Christian right?

By best, I mean worst and also best.

Both.

Have you ever changed anyone's mind?

Yes, I have.

I had a conversation about the whole defund police movement.

And

I said to somebody, I said, okay, I said, let me just explain this to you.

I said, if you know that someone, for example, is neurodivergent or autistic and they're having an episode, do you think it would be better to send a licensed worker that has dealt with people that are autistic or have some sort of neurodivergent, or do you think it'd be better to send a cop?

And they said, oh, well, the licensed person.

I said, that's what Defund the Police is about.

And they were blown away because they thought it was literally just taking money away from the police department.

I said, no, it's reallocating funds, but that doesn't have a catchy slogan.

Like reallocating funds.

That doesn't sound, that doesn't, you know, stick the same as Defund the Police.

And so when I explained to them, I was like, you know, and I agree.

I was like, it's just bad branding and bad marketing, but all we're asking is for there to be funding put into putting medical professionals and therapists and, you know, licensed social workers or whatever to go also be a part of situations where they're the experts and not always bringing the force of the police department to deal with that.

But don't you feel like that's a little bit of intellectual laziness on their part?

And then that's what we're heading toward now is like more and more and more intellectual laziness is like becoming cool.

Hands down, hands down.

I don't disagree with that at all.

And I always tell people, just read.

We have access to all the same information.

And it's very interesting who chooses to utilize that and who doesn't.

So it is intellectual laziness.

And I do end up doing a little bit more labor and more work than I want to because that's just what happens.

But

again,

I am willing to educate and I'm willing to have a conversation, especially if I do think that they're asking in good faith.

Because I will say with there being access to so much information, it also is hard to know what is the truth.

And so I do have a little bit of grace and understanding for that because there is so much out there and there could be a lot of lies and misinformation.

And so I do want to make sure people are equipped with the right things.

And I do feel like I spend some time making sure that the knowledge that I have is accurate and fair.

So yes, I think it's a combo of not knowing where to look, but also not even looking in the first place.

But we're taking the things to look at away right now.

Yes.

With the museums and with taking

any black history or most of American history, like the big parts out of museums and textbooks.

And so

then who do you turn to?

Like keeping the information, you know what I mean?

Like, do they have to go to the Wayback Machine online or something?

Like,

where will kids in Florida learn that slavery was bad?

Yeah, and that's the thing.

This is important information that we need access to.

And unfortunately, yeah, like you said, work is in Florida.

But honestly, I feel like kids are going to be curious to find out the truth on their own because they're being kept from it.

It's kind of that, like, sparking the curiosity, that forbidden fruit type situation.

Because, you know, when you tell kids don't touch that, what's the first thing that they do?

Yeah.

They want to go touch it.

Right.

So I'm hoping that hearing all of this conversation about things being banned and not being able to

access them will, you know, embolden them to want to figure out, well, why is this being banned?

Why is this being taken away?

Why can't I read this?

I want to go find out for myself.

So that's what I'm kind of hoping.

It's going to have a reverse effect that the people taking things away are.

Yeah.

Being in the situation that we are, seeing how they're trying to rewrite history, seeing how they're treating the immigrant population, you know, seeing all of the racism and the anti-Semitism and the sexism and the homophobia, just everything's coming up to the surface again.

And so I just want people to

use their platforms in whatever way they see fit to just speak out.

How do you communicate to people, like maybe before they get involved with the Christian nationalism pipeline?

I mean, honestly, there's just certain accounts that I would suggest you follow.

You know, Monty Mader is a really great

follow because she talks about how she left Christian nationalism and

went to be more progressive.

And she talks about her story a lot.

And she studied theology in Israel, no doubt, and

knows so much.

So I really recommend people following different people that can teach you.

Monty Mader is a great one.

Eric Feltis, he talks about, you know, faith from an LGBTQ perspective.

I'm trying to think, there's so many people.

Bible for the north for normal people.

It breaks down the Bible a lot and helps people with reading it in a different way.

And then, of course, following the new evangelicals, because we're doing a lot of that work as well to help people learn how to combat this Christian nationalism that's taking over.

I also like Dan McClellan, who's a biblical scholar who talks a lot about what's literally in the Bible and what's not literally in the Bible.

Right.

And what a lot of,

you know, bigots and assholes like to turn to to support their beliefs.

Yeah.

You know, that have, that just simply aren't there.

Yeah.

How do you square like the correction that the New Testament made to people who like to hang on to these Old Testament ideas as like proof that God doesn't like gay people or proof that, and the new thing is everyone's own slaves, like every society, it's in the Bible.

And it's like, I don't think Jesus was saying that.

It's not, yeah.

Right, right, right.

I mean, for me, for me, again, I am also, I'm not a theologian, I'm not a historian, but for me and my practice and my beliefs,

I've always been under the impression that everything in the Old Testament was just kind of a guide and a reference for the way that things were.

And when Jesus came and he changed and tried to get people to progress, it's not that it got rid of like the heart of the messages, but...

he was meant to guide everybody towards this new way of life of loving one another, loving God, advocating for people, loving your neighbor as you love yourself, and things like that.

So to completely ignore what he said and only focus on the Old Testament and be obsessed with his crucifixion and resurrection, you're completely ignoring his life, which is what as a Jesus follower, you're supposed to be following.

You're not supposed to follow the death of Jesus and you're not supposed to be obsessed with everything that happened before him.

They're completely omitting everything that you are supposed to do as a Christ follower.

When you follow somebody, you follow those teachings.

When you're Buddhist, you follow the teachings of Buddha.

You know what I I mean?

Like you follow that teacher within that religion.

Right.

And so they're not following what he taught or what he did at all.

And the Bible says to be more Christ-like.

Yes, exactly.

And my understanding of him is, like you said, he was a progressive, you know, he hung out with lepers and hookers and stuff and made friends, you know, like, yes.

And he also thought rich people were the worst

and spoke about that pretty succinctly.

I can't relate to Christians who don't take those lessons seriously.

It feels like we're doing two different things.

I'm not a Christian.

I was raised Christian.

I'm not practicing, but it does feel like two completely different interpretations of the same book.

And that one of them is like completely missing the point.

Yes.

Yes.

One is more self-serving.

The other one is more people-serving, right?

And that's what Jesus was.

The self-serving one is the one that focuses on your journey, your savior, your redemption, your sins.

It's all me-centered.

But Jesus was not me-centered.

He was really about how do we show up for one another?

How do we advocate for one another?

How do we love each other?

And I don't know how we've gotten away from that.

What the emphasis is for these two versions of Christianity are vastly different.

I think that the

prosperity gospel has really changed how we view things.

And also it's part of, I think, this is all chicken and the egg, but it's part of the rise of and

normalization of racism right now,

today,

which is, you know, it's every, it's like pursuing wealth in the name of God.

It's basically what slave owners did, you know?

That's actually what using the Lord's name in vain is, not saying like, oh my God, or god damn it, or whatever.

That's not using the Lord's name in vain.

Using the Lord's name is vain is when you use his name to get wealth.

That's what that is supposed to be.

And then you see all these megachurch pastors and all these televangelists that are millionaires, billionaires.

It's like that's using the Lord's name in vain.

That's exactly what that is.

But they ignore what the actual definition of that phrase means.

Are you feeling as a black person moving about the world?

like are you feeling different lately?

It's just this is nothing that black people haven't been through already.

And I and so that's why I was embarrassed maybe to even tweet about it.

I was like, I don't want to say tweet.

I don't know what to say anymore.

It's threading, I guess.

I guess I threaded.

Yeah, but I posted something online to ask people to come on the show and talk about this.

And I was nervous too, because, and some people did call me out and say, why are you talking about it right now?

And I said, no, duh.

I'm not saying it's a new thing.

Right.

I'm saying it's part of backsliding really rapidly in public.

We are.

We are.

But here's the thing.

Here's the thing.

Again, this is nothing new to black people.

And, you know, we talk about this all the time.

The quote-unquote positive, if I'm trying to put a positive spin on it, even though none of this is positive, is that I do feel that there is more social awareness about it now.

Even though we have been sounding the alarm about this type of stuff for years, I do see more people waking up to the things that are happening.

And it's, you cannot deny it anymore, right?

So that is, that is my quote unquote positive spin on everything that's happening.

But again, black people, specifically black women, have always had, you know, their, their,

what is, what is the phrase?

Like finger on the pulse.

Thank you.

They've always had their finger on the pulse.

And I say this because I don't think, I will never think that black women are at the bottom of the totem pole, but by society standards, we are.

So when you are at the bottom, all you can do is look up and see everything that's happening.

So we've always been able to see what's happening.

But there are other people that have privileges of not having to look and see and look down and see other things and look in different directions because nothing affects them.

But we're the ones that feel the weight of everything.

So we have been able to see what's coming, how it's going to affect people, what we should do.

And people haven't listened to us.

And now that we're here, they're like, oh, y'all have been right this whole time.

So

I don't go into the whole, I told you, Sophase, but I do go into, okay, now that you're aware, what are you going to do about it now?

And I think that that's kind of more of the mindset that I've been taking is that none of this is new, but now that you're woke to it, what are we going to do about it now so that we can get this finish and end it?

Because I don't know how we're going to survive four years.

I really don't.

Who are the leaders out there who you think are doing a good job of figuring out what we're going to do about it?

Organization-wise, Color of Change does some really great work.

Win with Black Women does some really great work in terms of keeping people aware.

Some of my favorite creators are Whitney Elise, The Reclaimed, Jameira Burley, Elizabeth Booker Houston, Keondrea.

Like these are all black women that are always just talking about things, advocating, educating, and doing really, really great work.

And so, I highly recommend following any of them to stay educated and aware.

They're just doing really great things.

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What is like a practical thing I could be doing?

I do have friends that are like, I'm not the one to explain that to you.

Like, go read a book.

But what are the best first steps to being like a louder advocate?

Yeah, there's two things actually.

So,

I write about this type of stuff on my sub stack all the time.

So, if anybody's interested, you can go to melindahale.substack.com.

I always write about these types of things.

And I just wrote a longer one about your specific question.

But the two main things that I can say is always uplift marginalized voices, specifically black women, because like I said, we have a perspective that nobody else has because of how we've been positioned in society.

And the second is check yourself for why you're doing it.

Because if you are expecting praise in return, you're not, you haven't done the work yet to actually be able to do the work.

And I think that that is one of the most important things is that sometimes you're going to have to just do the work and show up and advocate and not expect a thanks in return.

And eventually you will get that thanks because the work will be seen.

But if you say, hey, look what I just did, then you're going to set yourself back because then we know that you're just doing it for gratification and you're not doing it for the actual like change and progress for society.

So uplift other black voices, marginalized voices,

all voices, honestly, that are that are marginalized and need to be heard, but don't expect a thanks in return.

Those are the two things that I would suggest.

And especially with white women,

like the white savior shit,

of like advertising every good deed.

I don't know how to convince those Karens how to shut up, but also keep

trying in different ways.

Like, I don't want to, you know, pile on to people, like, which happens online all the the time, but there are, you know, there are some voices out there that really want to like get famous off of their advocacy or

get awards or something.

I don't know how to redirect that energy.

I mean, I don't want this, I don't want people to take this directive as a form of being petty.

But I will say, if you do see someone like that, again, you can say, hey, this is great that you said that.

I also really loved hearing this from this person.

And if you can, promote a person of color who is probably saying the same thing, but even better.

I usually say like, oh, but here's an organization that's actually doing the thing you're complaining about.

That's also a great way.

Yeah.

That's the other thing.

If people are complaining and not doing, doing the doing, you have to give them a call to action.

I'm all about call to actions.

I try to give people, you know, hey, this organization is doing this, sign this petition, go to this event.

I love call to action.

So I think that that's also a very, very great way way to direct people.

Do you get a chance to interact with young people?

No, you know, I haven't.

I mean, I have, I have two littles at home.

Yeah.

But they're not, they're not of that age.

But no, I mean, I feel like the Gen Z generation is one generation I really do want to connect with and talk with and see where they're at.

But I just haven't had those opportunities.

I did a speech at a college a year or two ago, and that was.

probably the youngest that I've talked with and spoken with.

And my whole speech was, everything begins with the conversation.

So we have to be able to converse with people and hear perspectives and honor everybody's journey.

And so that really did breed some good conversations.

But in general, no, I don't really get the opportunity to, but I would love to.

Yeah, I think that you'd be great at that.

Thank you.

I'm wondering if you can, along those lines,

you know, everything begins with the conversation.

Any tips on how more people can kind of start this conversation the way I did, even though I felt shy about it and I felt like it was an obvious question.

I don't know.

I just, how to, how to start that conversation without, you know, hitting those stumbling blocks we were just talking about.

The number one thing that I tell people, if they want to have a conversation, if they want to show up as an advocate, whatever the case may be, I think start by saying exactly what you're afraid of and just say, hey, I really want to talk about this.

I don't know where to start or who to talk to.

Is there anyone willing to have this conversation with me and i feel like if you word it that way you will be met with much more grace and much more understanding because it shows your willingness and that you actually want to try and i and i get that it's scary to put yourself out but i loved how you asked you're just like hey is there anyone that'd be willing to come on my podcast and talk about racism with me i thought it was such an organic and genuine way that you asked which is why i responded

I didn't do very many revisions.

I mean, maybe I changed one word,

but I wrote it out and then I sat there for a minute being like, okay, prepping for what the backlash might be.

And I was really

moved by how many genuine answers and genuine volunteers I got to come on the show.

Yeah, no, I think it's great.

And I think that this is one of the main ways that we learn and make progress.

And it's, it's having those conversations and building that connection.

And I don't think that you were asking in a way that was asking for people from free labor.

I also feel like I have a good intuition.

So you can tell when somebody's genuinely wanting to have a conversation for education or whatever the case may be.

And that's the vibe that I got from you.

So I think for anybody is really wanting to have that conversation, you just have to start by saying that.

It's like, also, this, like, what I tell people with advocacy, like, if you want to show up, if you want to speak out, just say, hey, I want to speak out about this, but I don't know what to say and I don't know where to start, but it is on my heart.

And I think that that is met with a lot more grace when you approach things like that as well.

Do you remember this?

I don't know how old you are.

I'm older than you, I think.

I'm 47.

But, you know, growing up in the 80s, like I read Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry when I was 10 in school.

You know, that was like my favorite chapter book for a long time.

It just really impacted me.

It was very visceral and scary.

We had great discussions about it in our classroom.

There was a feeling, I think, and you can see this in the, in the culture of the 90s, I think, with a lot of activism,

you know, it being cool to be progressive and think about the wrongs of the past and figuring out how to right them.

And all of that was like virtuous work.

That's all been turned on its head.

I don't know what happened to the idea of equality and feminism and all of the things that I feel like in the 70s, 80s, 90s, we were really driving in a certain direction.

And that's ignoring a lot of problems.

Okay.

I'm like not, we did not have, we were not okay with gay people.

There were a lot of things we weren't okay with, but it felt like a virtue that we were teaching children.

Maybe the adults weren't enacting this stuff, but there was curriculum.

I don't know.

I don't know how, how to express my frustration around this, but it seems to be like an element of our education.

Like everything's so soft, and then it's being taken over by racists.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's interesting because

the left is being accused of indoctrination when it's actually the right that is indoctrinating, right?

Because

I don't understand the issue with telling them the truth under the premise that we're never going to do this again and you don't treat people like this and you don't do this, right?

Also, firing them up.

Yeah, that's the part that I thought was like the most American part of my education as a little kid.

Yeah.

And it was very impactful.

And we're just not doing that.

Yeah, we're not.

It's a fear.

Clearly, there's just a fear of knowledge because,

you know, all a lot of studies have shown that the more you read and the more you know, the more progressive and left-leaning you end up being.

That's just a fact.

Yeah.

When you can control what people are allowed to consume from an educational standpoint, you can control their minds and control what they think and control their actions.

You know, there's a lot of people, and this is where my grace does come in, because I do feel like a lot of people in the South and some of the Midwest, when they're kept from this information, it is ignorance and naivete.

It is not necessarily racism.

There is plenty of

trust me.

There is plenty of racism.

But if you don't ever see Black people that are scholars, that are historians, that are doctors, that are changing the world, like when it comes to like history, if you're not taught the true accurate aspect of slavery and that it happened because of racism and that Jim Crow happened because of racism.

And that's the other thing, the wording.

We can't say they were discriminated against because they were black.

That's not what happened.

They were discriminated against because the other people were racist.

It's also in how we teach it that matters.

And so, oh, say more about that, that framing.

Yeah, so I think when you put it on the black person, it comes across as if it's their fault that they're black.

So you're saying if you say they were discriminated against or enslaved because because they were black, correlation does not equal causation.

100%.

And so, and you're putting it on the fault of the identity rather than on the fault of the oppressor.

It's like, no, they were discriminated against because those white supremacists were racist.

That's what the situation is.

Then what you should say is, but that was wrong.

Right.

And that's so simple.

That's so simple to say, but they can't even bring themselves to say that.

Not even the first part.

No, they can't.

They can't.

No, because that's being erased.

What do you think about that, all of this erasure of our history coinciding with these ICE raids?

I mean, I think everything is very meticulously calculated at this point.

And I think everything is on purpose.

I think everything is by design.

I think there's a reason for it.

And I think that

people need to start paying attention even more

because

everything that they said they were going to do, they're doing, and none of it is a joke anymore.

It wasn't a joke when they said it, but I think there was a lot of, oh, they're not going to do that.

He wasn't serious.

No, they are.

They're serious.

They're very serious.

And, you know, the using immigrants

as their, you know, their scapegoats for everything.

It's, it is just dangerous.

It's very dangerous.

And it's, none of it is, again, surprising to me.

But they had to pick a demographic that was easy to vilify and easy to get people to rally behind, and also easy for people to not

to be too intellectually lazy to actually look up the statistics behind immigration and behind immigrants' impact in this country.

It's easy to say immigrants are taking these things from you, they're causing all these crimes, they're doing all these things, and no one will look up those answers because they know that they're playing into those people's internal implicit bias and racism towards brown people.

Right.

Yeah.

So

they,

this sounds terrible to say, but they're smart.

They know what they're doing and it's working effectively and everybody's falling for it.

Another thing is getting rid of the corporation for public broadcasting,

you know,

which I grew up with watching Sesame Street and, you know,

Bloodhound Gang, all these multi-culture groups.

Like my,

okay, I still reference this when I'm thirsty, but there's this

scene from Sesame Street where

Grover is like stuck in a desert with no water and he's going,

because no one around him speaks English.

Yeah.

Which was fine.

He got the water.

You know what I mean?

Like it was just like, he just needed to learn one Spanish word.

And that was like funny.

You know, it was like, oh, you lazy, you lazy little puppet.

Just get the one Spanish word right.

You know,

instead of like, why aren't there any English speakers in this desert?

Right.

Those things aren't being created at the moment, not in a way that's like widely accessible.

I mean, there are things on, you know, these streaming platforms and stuff, but.

making this information available widely, I feel like is getting harder and harder.

It's hard not to feel dejected.

Yeah, yeah, it is, it is hard.

And I think, but I do think there is power in people and power in masses, especially when it comes to educational programming and trying to combat things like Prague or U that teach, you know, well, it was better to be a slave than it was to be dead and things like that.

Or, you know, everybody was a slave and yada, yada, yada.

Like, but I think if we put our funding, you know, our, if we, everybody donated $5 to NPR and PBS, like it would be sustainable, um, you know, in that sense.

So I think that we, the people, are going to have to step up to support these programming that is teaching kids empathy, that is exposing them to multiculturalism, that is exposing them to different identities and walks of life and normalizing different existences.

Because, you know, for example, with my daughter, she has all these dolls.

Everybody's a different race, and that's normal to her.

And I think little simple things like that are so important so that when you do go out in the real world, it's not like, why does that person look like this?

Or why does that person believe this?

I mean, even the other day, she says, can somebody have two moms and two dads?

And I said, yeah, I said, every family's different.

And she goes, cool, I thought so.

And that was the end of the conversation.

Kids don't care.

Kids don't care.

If you make it normal and you normalize it, then they're just like, cool, that's what it is.

Also, they don't know anything.

They don't know anything.

so whatever you put in their heads is gonna be how they view the world yeah 100 and so

don't be irresponsible with that yeah don't teach your kid to be a bigot when they're five like right yeah people have different families people look differently just treat people with kindness and they'll be like okay cool can i have a snack because that's what kids do like they hear what you say and they're like whatever sure that's great that's what my mom said that's what it is and and i just wish that we could have that normalization and that approach with our parenting because it starts with our kids, it starts at home.

And things won't be so like

egregiously surprising and astonishing to them when they go out into the real world and realize there are black people, there are brown people.

They do like different things that you didn't know about.

And there are friends of yours that have two dads and friends of yours that have two moms, or there's someone that, you know, is

identifies as trans or non-binary or whatever the case may be.

It's like if you normalize all of these things at a young age, it will not be a bigger deal for them when they're older.

And then they will be these wonderfully kind, empathetic human beings that have learned to accept other people's identities and existence.

Okay, one last question.

Yeah.

That's

maybe frivolous.

I don't know.

But okay, so I grew up in a multicultural area and

have had black friends my whole life.

And I don't want to do that to say like, I can't be racist.

I have black friends.

Whatever.

But I feel like the easiest, the easiest thing to recommend for people, and tell me if this is like offensive and weird, but go out of your way to make friends with people that aren't your same, don't look like you.

Like, it doesn't, isn't that the spice of life?

I mean, like getting out into the world and like meeting someone from Mexico and making them, but making a concerted effort, not, you know what I mean?

Not being lazy and just sitting in your house and only going on the same five Facebook pages or whatever.

But like, is it weird to recommend like, no,

sit at the bar at the Mexican restaurant,

talk to the bartender, make a friend?

No, I, I, I love what you're saying.

And I just think that obviously there's a way to do it, but you know, I think.

I'm here because I'm afraid of becoming a real racist.

Could I have a margarita?

No, I'm not saying to do that.

I'm saying out of your pursuit of a rich life

and perspectives.

Absolutely.

Any form of diversity in your orbit is a beautiful thing.

It is a beautiful thing.

It makes you a better, well-rounded person.

I lean into that word empathy.

I've said that several times, but it makes you more empathetic person.

It gives you more cultural understanding.

And also culture is beautiful.

When you learn about different cultures, the stories behind it, like.

Learning about, you know, food that has come from my background, from other, like food is a great way to have a conversation and get to know people because the story behind why somebody has a family dish or why somebody created something is so beautiful and then you get into that history you get into that richness of that culture food is one of the best ways like interdine with with people from different cultures because you will get a story you will get a history and you'll be exposed to something that you don't know about so i yes 100 do that they do this at my daughter's junior high which is great but um we did it again back in the early 90s like in the middle of nowhere in Michigan, there was like the cultural food fest and you would bring one of your family recipes.

Again, I don't think that's like as popular as it once was.

I have something my daughter and I have been working on for the last year or two.

She has a world map for her wall and it has stickers.

And we choose different regions to go to the restaurant.

And we're trying to like hit every country we can find in the Los Angeles area.

Love that.

So, I don't know, just might want to try it with your kids.

How old are your kids?

Well, my daughter's five, so I could definitely do that with her, but my youngest is 15.

That's awesome.

We'll wait a couple years and they'll both really like it.

But it's been really fun, especially like seeing like, you know, going to like Ethiopian food and seeing how you sit at the table and like different utensils and, you know, going to Japanese restaurants and we're not leaving here until you know how to use chopsticks.

She gets to use the cheater things, but

right.

But you know, like exploring the world through food, I think is

a wonderful experience, especially for kids

to get them

to be open to other cultures.

What's your website again?

So my website is melindahale.com and you can also follow me at melindahale on Instagram and threads.

And my substack is melindahale.substack.com.

Okay, everybody, go look those up.

Thank you so much, Melinda.

I really appreciate you taking the time to

answer my what I thought was an embarrassing dumb question on the internet.

Not at all.

Is everything racist?

Okay.

Thanks for having me.

Thank you.

Have a great day.

You too.

Bye.

Bye.

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