The Scale of Life (or were dinosaurs just too big?)

Speaker 1 This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

Speaker 2 SackSaw Fifth is revealing the season's most wanted holiday steals.

Speaker 2 Whether you're gifting someone on your list or treating yourself to a designer score, find deals on McQueen, Valentino, Versace, Stuart Weizman, and more at up to 70% off every day.

Speaker 2 Outshine at every event and outsmart your budget. From shimmer-ready party looks to luxe layers and cozy giftable accessories, Sacksaw Fifth is your secret source for celebrating in style.

Speaker 2 Your holiday shopping mission starts now at SackSOffFifth.com or a Sacks Off Fifth store near you.

Speaker 3 It's finally here! Black Friday at Ulta Beauty. Take 30% off Mac foundations and lip colors.
Save $100 on the iconic Dyson Air App. And starting Tuesday, shop mascaras for $14 and lip colors for $12.

Speaker 3 Perfect for stocking up. To make it super easy, shop online and pick up in store or get same-day delivery.
Head into Ulta Beauty and shop Black Friday deals now through November 29th.

Speaker 3 Ulta Beauty, gifting happens here.

Speaker 4 Okay,

Speaker 5 only 10 more presents to wrap.

Speaker 2 You're almost at the finish line.

Speaker 6 But first.

Speaker 6 There, the last one.

Speaker 2 Enjoy a Coca-Cola for a pause that

Speaker 7 refreshes.

Speaker 8 BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts.

Speaker 4 Hello, I'm Brian Cox.

Speaker 1 And I'm Robin Entz. Welcome to the Infinite Monkey Cage.

Speaker 9 Now, today we are exploring the scale of life. Why are some organisms large and some small?

Speaker 9 From the prokaryotic cell to the grandest dinosaur, how does the modern synthesis explain the observed variation in scale, form, and function?

Speaker 1 Eloquently put, and I presume that everyone who ever listens to this knows that we spend most of our time

Speaker 1 exploring deep questions and carefully formulating our pros to transfer these ideas to listeners with economy and precision, not dissimilar to the ideas of the Darwin paradigm.

Speaker 1 It didn't go out, that's what we've actually spent the whole afternoon after about five minutes of doing some research

Speaker 1 talking about why do big things always talk like this if you have a big elephant and all the little things always talk like this like if they're in bagpus we will fix it we will mend it we did that for three hours and that's basically the show that we've got is the equivalent of watching johnny morris's animal magic with him doing the voice hello i'm a very big bear i'm a very small thing i'm brian cox look at that

Speaker 9 Today, we are exploring the scale of living things and the advantages and disadvantages that come with being big or small.

Speaker 1 To discuss these matters without silly voices, well, probably with some silly voices, but anyway, mainly without silly voices, we're joined by a paleontologist, an evolutionary biologist, and a comedian who came to fame by asking the question, Are you Dave Gorman?

Speaker 1 Now, I don't know if I've given away any of the panel there with that introduction. We'll find out in a moment.
They are.

Speaker 8 I'm Susie Maidmont. I'm a paleontologist at the Natural History Museum, and I think the most astounding fossil ever found was the stem tetrapod, Acanthostega.
Acanthostega is a fish, but it has limbs.

Speaker 8 It's from a Devonian period. It's very, very old, about 450 million years ago, something like that.
And it's a fish, it lived in rivers.

Speaker 8 It's got quite a fish-like body, a fish-like tail, but it has limbs and it has digits. But biomechanical modelling suggests that it couldn't stand on these limbs.

Speaker 8 And this has been used to indicate that actually limbs first evolved for kind of moving through shallow water and pushing off the bottom. So, you know, this is basically our oldest relative.

Speaker 9 And just to set the scene there, so 450 million years ago, so so the land was, there was no plants on the land at the time.

Speaker 8 Yeah, some early plants. Yeah, very early plants, not much else, though, some insects and things like that.
But of course, yeah, it was the first sort of vertebrates to come out onto land, yeah.

Speaker 15 Hello!

Speaker 1 I love that idea, so people at home can go, oh, so Torres Vervest small.

Speaker 4 Susie very big.

Speaker 7 Hello, I'm Tori Herridge. I'm an evolutionary biologist from the University of Sheffield.

Speaker 7 And I I think the most astounding fossil ever found, I'm cheating, it's not quite a fossil yet, is the permafrost remains of woolly mammoths because they still have all of their innards sometimes.

Speaker 7 I have literally had the chance to hold a woolly mammoth liver and

Speaker 7 floppy, gooey,

Speaker 7 corpsey, and

Speaker 7 you get to hold the floppy flesh of your extinct animal, it doesn't get better than that.

Speaker 1 Your choice there was excellent in the speed in which an audience have gone from ooh to

Speaker 5 I'm Dave Gorman, I'm a comedian, I live in Bournemouth, and I think the greatest fossil discovery is actually quite a simple fossil, it's an ammonite, but they found so many of them they were able to package them and give one to everyone on a recent budget airline flight I took.

Speaker 5 They called them Danish pastries.

Speaker 1 Very good. And this is our panel.

Speaker 9 Susie, could you just define the parameters here?

Speaker 9 What are the largest animals that have ever lived? And what are the smallest animals?

Speaker 8 Okay, well, the largest terrestrial vertebrates that have ever lived, so things that are walking on land, that we know of, are the Titanosaurian dinosaurs.

Speaker 8 So these were things that lived in the Cretaceous period. And the largest one is about 60 tons.

Speaker 8 Now, we can get to how you estimate mass in an extinct animal at a later point in the show, but that is fraught with difficulty, as you might be able to guess.

Speaker 8 It was about 30 meters long, absolutely enormous. If you want to see one, there's one on display at the Natural History Museum right now, and they are absolutely huge.

Speaker 8 So, they're the largest terrestrial animals. Of course, we also have things like blue whales, which are also very, very, very enormous.

Speaker 7 Yeah, and then in terms of the smallest for mammals, it's the bumblebee bat, I think it is.

Speaker 8 And for birds.

Speaker 7 For the two grams, I think.

Speaker 8 Yeah, for birds, the same bee hummingbirds. But I mean, if we're going to insects, then we're getting, you know, money.

Speaker 7 Yeah, and then you go down to single-cell organisms and everything. I mean, that's the thing about size.
It covers everything.

Speaker 1 Well, Brian originally wanted to spend the whole show just going, so if we start with the subatomic particles,

Speaker 1 get to the size of the universe, but there might be a time problem, whether it exists.

Speaker 9 It brings me to the obvious question. From an evolutionary perspective, why that huge range? Clearly, we started with single-celled organisms.
Why do things get so big?

Speaker 7 Oh, that's a really, really, really big question. And it depends on your perspective, I guess.
Like, you know, why are animals and plants the size they are now?

Speaker 7 It could have many different answers. You could say, well, first and foremost, size is fundamental to your biology.

Speaker 7 It determines where you can live, what you can eat, how long you live, how quickly you grow up, how many babies you might have in your lifetime. All those things we know tie in with size, right?

Speaker 7 So, you can sort of say, you know, a big animal is one kind of thing, and a small animal is one kind of thing.

Speaker 7 People have even suggested there might be an optimal body size, which for mammals might be around a kilogram or a hundred grams, depending who you think.

Speaker 7 But, of course, not every single animal can be one kilogram if it determines where you live, right? Because we can't all live in the same space.

Speaker 7 And so, if you want to fill up all the space that's available, then you change your size and you change the kind of animal that you are. So, that's the kind of bigger picture.

Speaker 7 But if you take the other perspective, the one that Susie and I, you know, naturally take as evolution biologists and paleontologists, and look back in time and say, you know, when did things start to get big?

Speaker 7 What's the baggage we all bring with us? You know, where does it all come from? Then you get different answers.

Speaker 7 And actually, if you look across sort of the evolutionary time period for animals, I can't do plants, I'm sorry, things don't get big, like really big, big, like elephant big, for quite a long time in the history of the earth.

Speaker 7 You're talking, I guess, about 300 million years ago before you see something kind of big.

Speaker 7 It's really only when you get to the dinosaurs that you see stuff that is kind of bigger than two and a half meters.

Speaker 7 In fact, two meters seems to be the limit of like you get Ediacaran stuff, really old, weird, who knows what they are, type things. You get discs that are two meters wide.

Speaker 7 You go through to later periods. When were the giant millipedes?

Speaker 8 Oh, Carboniferous. Carboniferous.

Speaker 7 Again, like two metre millipedes in Northumberland.

Speaker 9 In Northumberland.

Speaker 13 In Northumberland

Speaker 7 and other places, but also Northumberland. Two metre millipedes.
Like two metres seems to be this kind kind of thing.

Speaker 7 And then you hit like the Permian, bit bigger, you get something like maybe two and a half bit bigger, and then you hit the Triassic.

Speaker 20 Dinosaurs, don't like dinosaurs.

Speaker 1 You loved that reaction to the two metre millipedes. There was a real sense that some people there are not keen on that idea at all.
I was so tempted to just go, release the millipedes.

Speaker 1 Why could they exist then? Because now that two metre millipede would not Susie, why would it be harder now for that to exist?

Speaker 8 Well, the theory is that the atmosphere had a different composition, probably a little bit more oxygen than it does today. And of course, these insects rely on diffusion through their cuticles.

Speaker 8 So, the idea is that they could get a lot bigger than today because there's a higher partial pressure of oxygen in the atmosphere, so that that diffusion could occur.

Speaker 9 So, it's one of the justifications for expanding EU legs.

Speaker 12 I just got slightly lost at that.

Speaker 5 Very early on, you said size is all to do with perspective, and I thought, well, yeah, obviously, if you're closer, it looks big. I get perspective, but that's not what you meant at all.

Speaker 1 That would be great, wouldn't it, if we eventually discovered the only reason dinosaurs seemed to be big was because everyone was standing too close to them.

Speaker 1 How did we not work that out before? The fossil record is a lie. Another win for the creationists.

Speaker 9 Tori, you mentioned there, just in passing, that we carry evolutionary baggage with us. So if you ask the question, why are we the size that we are?

Speaker 9 you're implying that that's because of our history partly

Speaker 17 where we came from.

Speaker 7 If you could basically reset the clock to the world right now,

Speaker 7 you wouldn't necessarily design animals, plants to be the size and shape they were. They're not perfect.

Speaker 7 They're pretty good because evolution does a good job, but evolution can only work on what came before. And what came before came from a different time.

Speaker 7 Yeah, you've got to work with the mess you're given. And like a really obvious question is like, why is there nothing as big as a dinosaur walking around on land today?

Speaker 7 And part of the reason is that everything big got totally smashed to smithereens by an asteroid that hit 66 million years ago. And that reset the clock to some respect, but it basically

Speaker 7 made big things go extinct. The things that survive were generally smaller, and then the clock sucks again, and then everything that's come on from that is working from that small baseline.

Speaker 8 I've got a good mass extinction fact. So 66 million years ago, when the dinosaurs went extinct, everything that was over 150 kilos went extinct.
Everything.

Speaker 8 So the only things that survived were under 150 kilos. So, it was very size-selective.

Speaker 7 Yeah, and it takes like you know, 20 million years after that before you get to the big stuff again. Stuff that we would go, wow, big mammals.

Speaker 7 You have like the paraserotheriums, which are kind of rhino-relatives. So, they're kind of like sort of rhinos with long necks.

Speaker 7 And they were massive, like some of them reached something ridiculous, like 24 tons, five meters at the shoulders. They had long necks as well.

Speaker 7 They were found in Africa and the Swatten Plateau, all over the world. And that same time period, you start to get the first big elephant-like things as well.

Speaker 7 But they're still not as big as dinosaurs.

Speaker 8 No, tiny, tiny, mate.

Speaker 21 They're Susie as well.

Speaker 7 No competition, Susie.

Speaker 9 By the way, just to say, that's on land. So, in the ocean, the big stuff survives.

Speaker 8 Not at the end of Cretaceous mass extinction. Everything in the land and in the oceans goes extinct.

Speaker 8 So, we do have big things in the ocean, not quite as big as today, but we've got big notosaurs, we've got other marine reptiles that are really, really large, and they all go extinct.

Speaker 8 So, it is literally globally everything that we know about, at least, so far.

Speaker 9 It's a reset.

Speaker 5 Yeah. It can't be possible to sort of tell over the time frame that we have actually witnessed as a species.
But are things getting bigger?

Speaker 5 And do you think that is evolutionary, or is there just not a big enough sample size?

Speaker 7 Things are getting smaller. Are they? Again, it's like a perspective thing.
So we are losing big animals far faster, big species, than we're losing small species.

Speaker 7 And we are living in a time of extinction,

Speaker 7 and the big things are going first. And so you see that pattern, it changes.

Speaker 8 So we actually think of today's time slice as being we call like sized a corporate. We actually are missing the big things, and at other times in earth history, we always have big things.

Speaker 8 Now, how big that big thing is varies. There used to be big things, but they've all gone extinct.
So, we used to have moas, and we used to have loads of different sorts of elephants,

Speaker 8 and things like this. And of course, the megafauna in Australia, and they have been wiped out as humans evolved.

Speaker 8 And there's a bit of debate around the impact of humans versus the impact of climate change in different places.

Speaker 8 and this is one thing that actually we haven't touched on, but I think it's important to mention that that first question you asked, Brian, about you know, why do we have big things or why is there a big size variation?

Speaker 8 Is that not only are there you know evolution has to work on what it has and all the things that Tori has already said, but also there's not one answer.

Speaker 8 Ecologists love coming up with rules and giving them names of people, usually white men. All those different rules are competing against each other the whole time.

Speaker 8 So, today, this sized appropriate fauna that we have could be because of humans, but it could also be because of this sort of unique set of climatic conditions that we find ourselves in after the last ice age.

Speaker 9 So, why did these dinosaurs get, what did you say, 30 meters long in some cases?

Speaker 8 As I say, there's probably not a single answer to that question.

Speaker 8 But one of the kind of leading theories about why, I think it's safe to say that most of the herbivorous dinosaurs are not running anywhere.

Speaker 8 So, today, if you think about the savannah and you think about the plain, you've got antelopes running away from lions and stuff, and that you know, the lions are chasing the antelopes.

Speaker 8 You've got pursuit predation, and that hadn't evolved in the Mesozoic, that's not how predation worked then.

Speaker 8 So, a lot of dinosaurs that we know evolved quite elaborate mechanisms for defending themselves against predators.

Speaker 8 So, we have armoured dinosaurs, we've got dinosaurs with horns and frills, they may have been display structures to make themselves look more scary, and of course, they all got bigger.

Speaker 8 So, one way you can stop getting eaten is to just be too big, too big to prey on.

Speaker 7 Yeah, then the but then the predators get bigger, right?

Speaker 8 Exactly. So, then you get Allosaurus in the Jurassic, so then everything, you know, then your prey has to get a a bit bigger.
So then your predators get even bigger. So

Speaker 8 you start to get a T-rex-sized thing in the Cretaceous. So the idea is that as the predators get bigger, the prey then get bigger to defend themselves.
And of course, there were other methods as well.

Speaker 8 For the sauropods, the long-necked, long-tailed dinosaurs, we know they also lived in herds. Now, of course, they hatched out of eggs about the size of melon.

Speaker 8 So they had to grow incredibly rapidly to get to that protected adult body size. So probably a lot of the juveniles were preyed upon.

Speaker 8 But if they managed to get over some sort of critical threshold, then they would have been pretty much safe from being attacked.

Speaker 7 So, this is really different in some ways to how we think about mammals.

Speaker 7 What CJ's describing there is so different to how an elephant would do it, which is the biggest sort of lamb mammal we have today.

Speaker 7 Now, elephants do not lay an egg the size of a melon, they eat an African elephant female, like four tons, maybe, elephant baby, 100 kilograms, and it takes 22 months to gestate it.

Speaker 7 And then you invest a lot of energy in it, looking after it, feeding it. It's a high investment strategy.
Everything happens slowly, but hopefully, your baby makes it.

Speaker 7 Very few babies die, and so you have a very different strategy to say these mega huge size sauropods.

Speaker 7 I personally don't understand how they got enough energy to grow that quickly without eating plants and those silly small heads.

Speaker 8 Yeah, I mean, I think that is probably an excellent question, possibly for another show.

Speaker 9 How long did they live, typically?

Speaker 8 We don't really know. It's difficult to tell that.
One of the things we can do is slice up the bones and look at growth rings. So, bones have growth rings in them.

Speaker 8 The idea is that these are probably seasonal, they're probably deposited when growth slows at times of limited resources.

Speaker 8 But one of the things we find with the sauropods is that they grew incredibly rapidly, such that they didn't very often deposit these growth rings.

Speaker 8 So, it's actually pretty difficult to date a sauropod. But, I mean, I think they could have lived to probably 70 years or you know, something like that.
So, they probably lived a long time.

Speaker 5 I always thought with evolution, sort of everything would be happening in some species somewhere. So, why wasn't there some herbivore going, be small and quick?

Speaker 7 Oh, there was, everyone else is getting huge.

Speaker 7 There would be, though, running, yeah.

Speaker 8 I mean, there was, and I should be clear there. There were small, two-legged herbivores that were quick, and there were small, two-legged meat-eaters that were quick.

Speaker 8 But when we get up to the bigger things with you know, four legs, and that four-leggedness is kind of a really key thing that we see in the dinosaurs because all dinosaurs were two-legged, and they evolved from two-legged ancestors.

Speaker 8 And so, we see them evolving four-leggedness multiple different times through their evolution as herbivores. And this is probably related to a herbivorous diet, actually.

Speaker 8 They needed this big kind of barrel-like gut to digest all this food that they needed to be able to grow really fast and all that sort of thing.

Speaker 8 And in order to suspend your massive barrel-like gut and not, you know, constantly topple forward, you need to go down onto four legs.

Speaker 8 So, that's one idea about why they maybe evolved this four-leggedness.

Speaker 8 And then, you know, I guess a kind of corollary of having to be four-legged and having this big gut is that you can no longer run around very fast.

Speaker 7 And you set the scene for

Speaker 7 the race towards getting bigger and bigger and bigger. How big did you think it would have got of the asteroid, hadn't it?

Speaker 8 I mean,

Speaker 8 it's interesting, isn't it?

Speaker 8 Because every time they find a new one, every time somebody finds a new one, they go, Well, this must be close to the limit of what it's possible to be and live on land as a terrestrial vertebra.

Speaker 8 And then they find another one and go, oh no, we were wrong. You know, actually, they could be a bit bigger.
And, you know, I suspect that we'll probably find bigger ones in the future.

Speaker 8 But the amazing thing about the sauropods, about the long-necked, long-tailed dinosaurs, is that they were not just like scaled-up mammals in terms of any aspect of their biology, but particularly in terms of their respiration.

Speaker 8 So, they have a bird-like respiration. This is totally different to what we have.

Speaker 8 They have a unidirectional airflow where their lungs have this extension of air sacs, and those air sacs invade into the bones.

Speaker 8 So, the bones effectively have these big air spaces in them, which, when the animal breathes in, the oxygen gets pumped from the lungs into the air sacs.

Speaker 8 And so, oxygen is extracted from the in-breath, but also from the out-breath. So, it's an incredibly efficient form of respiration.
It's what allows birds to fly today and be very, very active.

Speaker 8 And, of course, it made the sauropod skeleton much lighter than the equivalent mammal skeleton today.

Speaker 9 It is raised a question, Toria: is there a limit

Speaker 9 to how big a land animal could get?

Speaker 7 Well, again, that will depend on the setting in which it lives, right? There are these sort of like rules that go with size.

Speaker 7 Because if you think, say, a mammal can go from, say, this two grams to a hundred thousand kilograms if you're a whale, but they're all made of bone.

Speaker 7 But basic, basic laws of physics, and I'm terrible at maths, so this is up to you, Brian, to make sure I get it right.

Speaker 7 If you basically scale something up, because of the way that volume goes to the cube and surface area and cross-sectional areas go with the square, as you get bigger, you're putting all that weight through your limb bones, if you're walking around on the ground, you're going to end up breaking your bones because you get heavier faster than your bones can keep up with it structurally.

Speaker 7 And so we see this trend of bones getting more and more robust as things get larger or things change the way they stand.

Speaker 7 So you go from kind of like crouchy to very upright and columnar in an elephant, for example. If you get to that limit, then you basically only get so much bigger before you can change again.

Speaker 7 And then you're looking at changes in structure.

Speaker 8 So I've got another good fact along that line. Well, I think it's a good fact.
T-Rex couldn't actually run. T-Rex couldn't perform a running gait.

Speaker 8 So a running gait is where you have both feet off the ground for just a split second or so at one time.

Speaker 8 And biomechanical modelling has shown that if T-Rex performed that, the forces on its bones would have been such that its legs physically would have broken if it had run.

Speaker 8 So, it could walk really fast. Actually, it could still walk faster than we can run.
So, if you are ever being chased by a T-Rex, do make sure you're not the slowest person in the room.

Speaker 9 It raises that question, doesn't it? Of a T-Rex hunting a big herbivorous dinosaur. And you think of it as being very dramatic, there's just a lot of things walking around.

Speaker 5 I always thought that was just the speed that they could do claymation for the films when I was a boy.

Speaker 12 I didn't realize that was the actual speed.

Speaker 22 Black Friday is here, and Pandora Jewelry is offering up to 40% off store-wide and site-wide. Now through December 2nd, explore jewelry designed to last beyond the season.

Speaker 22 From classic charms to modern rings, bracelets, earrings, and more.

Speaker 22 Whether you're holiday shopping or treating yourself, now is the perfect time to find something special.

Speaker 23 Every year, I look forward to going out and picking out some nice pieces of jewelry for all the women in my life, from my wife to my mother to even my aunts. Everyone's getting something.

Speaker 23 And with Black Friday and Cyber Monday deals, how can you go wrong?

Speaker 22 I personally love to treat myself during the holiday season, so I definitely be taking Pandora up on this offer. Shop at pandora.net or your local Pandora store.
Exclusions apply.

Speaker 24 Hey everyone, Ed Helms here.

Speaker 4 And hi, I'm Cal Penn, and we're the hosts of Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.

Speaker 24 This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Jenny Garth, host of the iHeart podcast, I choose me, to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic, Pride and Prejudice.

Speaker 24 This is not a trick question.

Speaker 4 There's no wrong answer. What role would I play?

Speaker 8 You know what?

Speaker 3 I can see you as Mr. Darcy.

Speaker 2 You got a little call in first.

Speaker 24 Okay, that's really sweet.

Speaker 24 I appreciate that, but

Speaker 24 are you sure I'm not the dad? I'm not Mr. Bennett here.

Speaker 4 Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart audiobook club on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 25 When you need a break, skip the scrolling. Visit myprize.us.
The games are super exciting and you can actually win. Myprize.us is the most fun, free-to-play social casino around.

Speaker 25 Everyone deserves to win big. All the slots and table games you love with incredible bonuses.
Sign up today for an incredible welcome package.

Speaker 20 Myprize.us is a free-to-play social casino. Users must be 18 or older to play.
Voidwear prohibited by law. Visit myprize.us for more details.

Speaker 25 When you need a break, make it memorable. Visit myprize.us.
Real prizes, real winners, real easy.

Speaker 10 This is Jacob Goldstein from What's What's Your Problem.

Speaker 10 When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odo solves this.

Speaker 10 It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way.

Speaker 10 You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out Odoo at odoo.com.

Speaker 10 That's odoo.com.

Speaker 13 So that's what they could do.

Speaker 5 I'm the least scientific person on this panel, but I think they have found the largest dinosaur that they're ever going to find. And I'll tell you for why.
I live in Bournemouth.

Speaker 5 As someone who has recently had to go through the beach looking for a lost earring, I tell you, it's really easy to find big things and really hard to find small things.

Speaker 5 How could they not have found the biggest thing so far if they were looking? They're the easiest things to find.

Speaker 8 It's true. There's a a massive size bias on the fossil records.

Speaker 8 It's also a kind of collector bias. There's a far side cartoon in which they say, well, there's no prestige in finding the most average-sized dinosaur, the most medium-sized dinosaur.

Speaker 8 So there's not only a collector bias, but also a preservation bias. They just preserve better.
If you have little tiny things, their bones just smash up.

Speaker 8 They get transported down a river, they're going to smash up. They just don't get fossilised.

Speaker 1 Just when you were talking about the very, very slow pursuit, have you ever seen the film Cockneys versus Zombies?

Speaker 1 There's a beautiful scene in which Richard Bryars is being chased by a zombie. Richard Bryars has a walking frame, but because of a zombie, it's a traditional zombie.

Speaker 1 Both of them are moving, so it's the most beautiful, slow chase you will ever see.

Speaker 5 I mean, this is such a sidetrack, but I was once doing a show in Colorado. It had a matinee, and they hadn't sold me any tickets for the matinee, and so they bust in an old folks' home.

Speaker 5 And there was some material in the show about creationism, and it offended many of this audience.

Speaker 5 And I had a man with a walker, which had a squeaky wheel, and it also had an oxygen tank that was going up with a pipe to his nose. And it was just a walkout that took seven minutes

Speaker 23 with

Speaker 5 for seven minutes of a man being so outraged by what I was saying. And it was, for me, the funniest part of the show.

Speaker 1 You've got a child, and I always found with when my son was little the fact that all my dinosaur facts were wrong. Because what we were brought up with, we're a similar generation,

Speaker 1 it turns out a huge number of these ideas have changed. I mean, it's one of those beautiful things to see the speed of science and the speed of understanding.

Speaker 1 So, do you find yourself perhaps when you know about the age of four or five, where you're constantly being told off by that child?

Speaker 12 No, that's not wrong.

Speaker 1 Brontosaurus, don't be so silly, Dad.

Speaker 5 Absolutely, and they go through this phase, and it is an amazing phase because it's just as they're developing language. So many boys get obsessed with dinosaurs.
Probably girls as well. I have a boy.

Speaker 5 But suddenly, these people who are struggling with language are able to pronounce these really complicated terms that we struggle with. The whole thing becomes completely mesmerizing.

Speaker 5 Suddenly, you've got a Top Trump deck of cards that you've somehow memorised. And then he watches something else on TV, his obsession changes, and I've forgotten it all.

Speaker 5 But for two years, I was hot to trot on dinosaurs.

Speaker 5 And it all came from starting with a four-year-old boy being so excited and suddenly having a facility for language which kind of meshed with his curiosity at exactly the right time.

Speaker 8 There's actually nothing more terrifying than doing, you know, a talk or something in front of a bunch of six to eight-year-old boys. I mean, they know so much more about dinosaurs than I do.

Speaker 8 You know, and they'll say what about this dinosaur and I'm like never heard of that dinosaur before.

Speaker 8 I've got nothing. I'm sorry.
I don't know. I don't know who would win in a fight.
I just don't know.

Speaker 5 My son and one of his friends had a big fight that almost, I mean, there were tears because one of them had read in a book that all birds are related to dinosaurs.

Speaker 5 And so the fight became, are dinosaurs still around?

Speaker 5 No, dinosaur is extinct. You're wrong actually, because that's a dinosaur pointing at a seagull.

Speaker 5 And the one who thought that all birds were dinosaurs would not back down, and the one who thought that all dinosaurs were now extinct would not back down.

Speaker 5 And they basically had to be separated, and they're not allowed to see each other anymore.

Speaker 8 I mean, it sounds like every day of my life on TikTok.

Speaker 9 It's reasonably recent, that, isn't it?

Speaker 8 Yeah, yeah, early 90s, when they, I mean, so that theory's actually been around for a really long time that, you know, that birds evolved from dinosaurs, went right back to Thomas Henry Huxley in the latter part of the 19th century, but was basically forgotten about and ignored.

Speaker 8 And then suddenly in the 90s in China, they started to find these incredible fossils, which are fossilized with soft tissues and these beautiful feathers and all these bird-like features, but were clearly not fully evolved into birds yet.

Speaker 8 And we now have

Speaker 8 many, many, many steps on that evolutionary lineage. And it's as close to fact as we get in paleontology that birds are dinosaurs.

Speaker 1 That's a trick they're missing in Jurassic Park, aren't they? When you were saying seagull, and immediately all I saw was Sam Neal in Jurassic Park having a lovely 99 there,

Speaker 19 and then the pterodactyl going,

Speaker 1 it's my regis all over again.

Speaker 9 So you mentioned just in passing that large things tend to live a long time and smaller things tend to live shorter lives. So why is that?

Speaker 7 Well again, what's your why? Do you want the evolutionary why or the kind of like the mechanistic why?

Speaker 7 Because you can, well, yeah, I mean, so the evolutionary reason, I guess, is that to get big, you've got to grow, right? And there's a finite amount of time you could spend looking for food.

Speaker 7 And so effectively, those things all come together to put constraints on how quickly you can get big, unless you're a sauropod, clearly.

Speaker 7 But as a mammal, it will take longer to get bigger than it will if you're a mouse. And so, that factors into the kind of basic strategy you take.

Speaker 7 We call it life history, so it's kind of just there, and you get exceptions to it.

Speaker 7 So, you might get, say, I don't know, big dogs, for example, don't live longer than small dogs, but they're domesticated, so that's kind of interesting.

Speaker 7 So, there's that aspect to it, but then there's a kind of is there some kind of fundamental constraint, right, on the way biology works?

Speaker 7 Now, we know that, say, metabolism, like your actual metabolism, that also scales. We say scale as it means it changes with size.
So, if you are a shrew or a mouse, you have a really fast metabolism.

Speaker 7 If you're an elephant, you have a slow one.

Speaker 7 If you just kept the same metabolism, if metabolism scaled up equally, so as you got bigger and you doubled in size, you doubled your metabolic rate, an elephant's blood would boil.

Speaker 7 So, to stop that from happening, mechanistically, that's a pretty strong selection pressure against having metabolism that goes up in proportion to size.

Speaker 7 So, you know, is it evolution or is it just mechanism? I say mechanism because there is some discussion about whether it's about fractal properties of the way things like mammals work.

Speaker 7 So, our blood goes around our body. So, I've already mentioned volume and an area.
Well, volume, your body size is basically volume. The amount of blood you have in you is also volume.

Speaker 7 So, they ought to go together, right? You double in size, you double in blood volume.

Speaker 7 But your blood goes through your body, it goes through like big veins coming out of your lungs, through the smaller veins, into capillaries spread out, and all those come out in a branching fractal pattern with differing cross-sectional areas.

Speaker 7 And of course, those cross-sectional areas are what determine how easily things can get across from the blood into your muscle tissue. And that's a physics limitation, a chemistry limitation.

Speaker 7 And that in itself may, it's been suggested, explain mechanistically why you have this two-thirds relationship, so your metabolism scales to body mass to the power of 0.75.

Speaker 7 But that might explain that, but there's also quite a good selective reason why it doesn't work either.

Speaker 9 I suppose it's also the surface area, so the heat's got to get out.

Speaker 7 So then you come to these big rules named after boring white men.

Speaker 7 So there's a rule called Bergman's rule, which is things that live in colder places, so away from the equator or at higher altitudes, for example, tend to be larger.

Speaker 7 And one of the reasons explaining any vertical as that is this surface area to volume rule. So as you get bigger, you have more volume than the surface area.

Speaker 7 And so if you're in a cold area, being bigger is better because you can basically keep the heat in.

Speaker 8 These amazing ecological rules are, you know,

Speaker 8 they're more just guidelines, really. So, Bergman's rule, apparently, good for mammals, but not so much reptiles.
Interesting.

Speaker 7 You do see it in butterflies, though. Interestingly.
It comes kind of a game: like, you know, do we see Bergman's rule in this species or this group or this group? And

Speaker 7 the big one is Cope's rule for body size, which is that things get bigger through time, but that endless debates as to whether or not it is actually things getting bigger or just more variation.

Speaker 8 Because, of course, like we mentioned, small things going extinct, for example.

Speaker 7 Well, exactly. Yeah, so we have this thing: if you reset the clock at every mass extinction back to small-size stuff again, basically, you've got a lot of small-size things.

Speaker 7 The only spaces left are the bigger ones, right? So you might expect an increase in variation that manifests as things looking bigger through time.

Speaker 1 Do we see any pattern of behavior that seems to fit with different sizes? I mean, in terms of, say, the amount of social behavior or group behavior.

Speaker 7 Well, brain size scales with body size, and so it's interesting. But yes, I mean, so that's that in itself is interesting to think about sort of larger social mammals.

Speaker 7 You tend to have larger brains, but it is interesting, isn't it?

Speaker 7 If you're a large-sized animal, like an elephant, and you have no predators, unless you're very old and infirm or a baby, then you know, could you afford to be a bit more placid?

Speaker 8 So, what about herbivory? What about herbivory? Do we see any really large carnivores?

Speaker 7 Yeah, herbivores are always bigger than carnivores, it seems right, which makes sense. And that's partly because you can get really circular here.

Speaker 7 So, if you are a herbivore, you need to be big because if you are eating lower-quality food, so you know, leaves do not have as much energy as meat in them, and so you have to be bigger to have a larger gut to process and allow that food to chug through it.

Speaker 7 Unless you then have an evolutionary innovation, which allows your stomachs to multiply and you start to ferment.

Speaker 7 But if you're gonna basic like hind gut ferment like an elephant, you need that big gut because it takes a long time for that food that you're eating to get from out the other end.

Speaker 7 And when it comes out the other end, it's hardly been digested.

Speaker 7 People have done experiments, bomb calorometer experiments on elephant poo, and it's kind of got the same calorific value as it had when it went in, but they just do it really slowly, and enough comes out, and they just keep on eating, and so on and so forth.

Speaker 7 And that's one of the reasons why you can make paper out of elephant poo, and it's quite nice. And but elephant poo is not as noxious as, say, dog poo and all these various things.

Speaker 7 When you go down that route of herbivory, then you want, on one hand, need to be big, and then, of course, you can get bigger because you can just keep expanding your gut size and your body size and just eat more slowly with your lower metabolism.

Speaker 7 You can accommodate that lower-resource food. So it's enabled.
And then it's interesting to think that you know, it's the constraint on the body size of carnivores as a result.

Speaker 9 You know, what's really interesting to me as you've described it, these seem like simple questions. What's the biggest thing? What's the most thing? Why are they big? Why are they small?

Speaker 9 But as you described it, it depends on absolutely everything about a planet and its history.

Speaker 9 It's the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere, the gravitational pull of the planet, the strength of bone, the history. Did it be at it by an asteroid or not?

Speaker 7 All the other animals you're living in the ecosystem with. So the thing that I mostly work on are elephants that lived on islands.
Now, these elephants elephants are dwarf elephants.

Speaker 7 During the Ice Age, you had all kinds of different elephant species all across the world, everywhere apart from Antarctica and Australia. And some of the ones that lived in Europe were massive.

Speaker 7 You have these straight-tuss elephants that you could find in warmer periods, even here in London, for example, and they were 10 tons, like four meters at the shoulders.

Speaker 7 That's bigger than an African elephant. These were very common all across the Mediterranean.

Speaker 7 And when they became isolated on islands like Malta, or Sicily, or Cyprus, or Crete, they always, always, always evolved to become smaller, which is telling you something about the fact that being big is a bit rubbish.

Speaker 7 On these islands, you have no predators, usually, you have fewer competitors, but you also have limited resources because you're in a tiny island and you're a big elephant.

Speaker 7 And some of these elephants were really small. And so, the smallest ones were a meter tall as adults.
That is the same size as a newborn baby African elephant.

Speaker 7 And we have skeletons from caves in Sicily of baby dwarf elephants that are like puppy-sized.

Speaker 7 And they're just like little little tiny elephants.

Speaker 7 So, that was my like, that was a good competitor for the most astounding fossil ever found, really, for me, because these baby dwarf elephants are so tiny, and that's really interesting again because, of course, you know, because it happens again and again and again, it's a great system for testing evolutionary hypotheses about size.

Speaker 7 And one of the things we see is that they get smaller, but they still stay chunky.

Speaker 7 And because we know that small things live faster than large things, the expectation was these smaller elephants were evolving smaller because they were kind of racing towards a faster life history, having more babies more quickly, because that would make sense from an evolutionary perspective.

Speaker 7 When we looked at their bones, the cross-sectional growth lines, these tiny one-metre-tall elephants were taking as long to grow up. They lived to 70 years.

Speaker 7 Yeah, exactly the same as a full-size elephant.

Speaker 9 But then the opposite is also true, isn't it? Because we hear of island giganticism

Speaker 9 in rodents, Christmas Island, where the crabs, the coconut crabs, or the rubber crabs, enormous things,

Speaker 20 relatively.

Speaker 7 It's another rule.

Speaker 7 Sometimes called Foster's island rule, but we just call it the island rule these days. On islands, typically, small things get big and big things get small.

Speaker 7 And again, this is this idea maybe they're all kind of going towards this kind of optimal sweet spot given half a chance.

Speaker 5 Do we have any idea how many, for example, tyrannosaurs have been found? I mean, is it hundreds or is it thousands or is it tens?

Speaker 7 So that including the secret ones at people's private collections.

Speaker 8 Yeah, so I mean, that's a complicated question.

Speaker 8 I think there's around about 30 more or less complete T-Rexes that are known.

Speaker 8 There's probably lots of others in private collections, and there's lots and lots of things that are like, you know, a footbone or a single backbone.

Speaker 8 We very rarely find complete fossils, complete, you know, articulated specimens in the fossil record.

Speaker 5 I mean, because when you say, oh, maybe the Spinosaurus was bigger or whatever, something like that.

Speaker 5 If in millions of years they're finding fossils of humans and we've died out and there's somebody else discovering them, but all of the fossils they found are where a coach taking a basketball team

Speaker 15 ended up in a river.

Speaker 7 Like that plane that crashed.

Speaker 12 They're going to skew the perception of what humans were.

Speaker 8 Absolutely. And this is, you know, this is something that makes me a little bit crazy, actually.

Speaker 8 Most dinosaur species are known from a single partial bone or, you know, a few bones. We don't have complete skeletons for most dinosaur species.

Speaker 8 Now, in the media, we see quoted, oh, this one was 60 tons, or this one was 20 tons, or this one was 30 tons. Well, how do we work out that body mass from a small selection of these bones?

Speaker 8 And that itself is quite a difficult thing to thing to do, as you can imagine.

Speaker 8 And there's a couple of different methods, but a very popular one is that if you measure the humerus, so the upper arm bone and the femur, the upper leg bone, if you measure the circumference of those bones and you plot it against body mass in living animals, you find a nice straight line relationship.

Speaker 8 And so, what people have done is go and do that with dinosaurs.

Speaker 8 If you've got the forelimb and the hind limb preserved, then you can measure those circumferences, you can plot it on this graph, and you can read it off.

Speaker 8 Now, of course, you might have to extrapolate that graph a bit further because the largest animal in that data set is an elephant at six tons, and the largest reptile is an alligator at 150 kilos.

Speaker 8 So, you know, but we'll just ignore that. Now, the method has enormous error bars associated with it.

Speaker 8 So, we did it for the stegosaur that we have at the Natural History Museum, which is the world's most complete stegosaur, and we got a body mass range of anywhere between one and six tons.

Speaker 19 So,

Speaker 8 it's quite a big range.

Speaker 5 I mean, I go up and down around Christmas.

Speaker 8 It's more than just having a big pula, isn't it?

Speaker 19 I mean,

Speaker 1 that's still one of my favourite theories about the dinosaurs dying out. You probably remember it from the 1970s.

Speaker 1 It was a theory that there was some kind of plant that died out, which had helped them digest, and they all died of constipation, which is just such a agony of the small-armed Tyrannosaurus.

Speaker 1 Now, Dave, I just want to get something quite serious now, which is the William Shatner film Kingdom of Spiders.

Speaker 1 Probably remember William Shatner's cows are eaten by a Giant Spider. In the 1970s, these books were everywhere.
They were the books and films about giant, weird creatures.

Speaker 1 As you know, I'm a big fan of the Guyanese Myth Giant Killer Crab books, Crabs on the Rampage, Night of the Crabs, Crabs Moon, Origin of the Crabs, you know, the rest of them.

Speaker 15 So,

Speaker 1 were you ever into that kind of genre?

Speaker 5 I wasn't into that at all. I was aware that they existed, and there would be a shop where for 50p there'd be a different pay-packs that I just assumed were all the same.

Speaker 5 But somebody had gone, Control-C, Control-V, V, and rabbits became slugs, and the same novel got broken.

Speaker 9 I think in the 1970s, that control C and Ctrl V didn't exist because that comes through its Windows, it's cut and paste, and that would be Windows 3.1, I think.

Speaker 19 Wasn't around in the middle of the day.

Speaker 15 Finally, I see Brian come alive during the show.

Speaker 21 But if you look at the history of operating systems,

Speaker 9 Ctrl C, control V.

Speaker 12 He's fallen into my trap.

Speaker 16 We can leave.

Speaker 13 Saying?

Speaker 1 I'm sure you know in Crabs on the Rampage, there's a moment where one of the characters says, Crabs, crabs, crabs the size of beach donkeys.

Speaker 1 Now, my question is: could crabs be the size of beach donkeys?

Speaker 7 Well, there were giant sea scorpions that reached about two and a half meters long, so just go with it.

Speaker 8 Why not? Let's go with it.

Speaker 18 Why not?

Speaker 1 I just need to make sure that the giant killer crab novels by Garwin Smith were scientifically accurate.

Speaker 4 Excellent.

Speaker 21 Now, the funny thing is.

Speaker 5 Sorry, can I just check, where are beach donkeys donkeys compared to other donkeys?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think it was merely because they were the things being eaten, and that gave them something to actually be.

Speaker 5 Yeah, because I would, I mean, I'm no script editor, but I would have said just say as big as donkeys.

Speaker 1 You know, when the word count just isn't quite what you need it to be.

Speaker 1 Now, this is my favorite question we've ever typed out, and then I've turned the page and gone, we really did type this out. On the moon, how big would elephants be?

Speaker 1 Yeah, that was when we got to it, we just

Speaker 1 start of the body. Think I'll take this one

Speaker 9 is the last question, but it's a question about scaling. So the question is about gravity.

Speaker 9 It's a sixth of the gravity.

Speaker 7 Well, yeah, this is actually a really critical question, Brian. So what is size?

Speaker 7 What is size? Is it weight? Is it mass? Is it height? So an elephant would be the same size on the moon, but it would weigh a different weight, right?

Speaker 7 But it's evolved on Earth, so it would have brought all of its metabolism and everything with it, but it structurally wouldn't need to be as chunky as it is.

Speaker 7 Elephants actually have got quite slender legs and quite delicate feet, and they kind of stand on tippy toes and they have a kind of sort of a wedge-like pad with a kind of cartilaginous siletto going through it.

Speaker 7 So they'd be fine. Maybe they could run on the moon.
They could jump on the moon. That'd be great.
Because elephants can't run either, like T-Rexes.

Speaker 7 They just kind of grouch and run and kick their legs behind them like bunny hopping. But if they evolved on the moon, that would be a different question.

Speaker 1 I'm so excited by telling this into a 1970s disaster movie.

Speaker 13 My God, what's wrong with the tides?

Speaker 1 They're not moving in the way they normally do. Oh my God, elephants jumping on the moon.

Speaker 5 I'm just aware, and you've sort of mentioned all these rules named after boring white men, and I'm aware that I can't help the fact that I have inherited a culture of boring white men.

Speaker 5 And part of it means that at the back of my head, when you said elephants look like they've got chunky feet, but they're not, they're on the tippy toes, not like on stilettos.

Speaker 5 A part of me looked at the elephant X and went, oh, she's got that wrong.

Speaker 5 They've got big, chunky feet, I know, elephants.

Speaker 12 To stop

Speaker 12 the boring white man coming to the fore.

Speaker 7 Gorman's rule says elephants have chunky feet.

Speaker 1 We asked the audience a question as well. What would you most like to dig up on an archaeological dig and why? Oh, I've got a leg bone of an ancient man.
It will be a real shin dig.

Speaker 4 I thought that was very well.

Speaker 1 You don't listen to them, Sue.

Speaker 18 You keep going, for heaven's sake.

Speaker 1 What have you got, Brian?

Speaker 9 The Lost City of Atlantis. Why guarantees the funding for another season?

Speaker 1 That's a Mr. G.

Speaker 13 Hancock.

Speaker 1 Keys to the car that I lost 20 years ago. It might stop my husband reminding her every time we have an argument.

Speaker 5 What would you most like to dig up on an archaeological expedition? My dignity. I lost it in my 20s and I've never quite recovered.

Speaker 9 There's a similar one here, actually, from Dave. He said, My geology degree certificate, Portsmouth, 1981, lost it days later.

Speaker 9 2-2 and proud.

Speaker 1 Pavlov's dog because I'm sick of the bloody bell ringing.

Speaker 5 Something more valuable than bottle tops because bling, oh, Brian, you know, bling can only get better.

Speaker 5 You get royalties if I say it, if I sing it.

Speaker 9 Anything can only get better.

Speaker 1 Thank you very much to our panel, Tori Herridge, Susie Maidman, and Dave Gorman.

Speaker 1 Now,

Speaker 1 next week, we're going to be talking about science and the movies, and we're going to discover whether it really is true about the giant killer rabbit attacks.

Speaker 1 Now, we've found out that, in fact, the giant killer crabs really are a threat, and some of them might be larger than beach dogs.

Speaker 9 He's not listening to anything you said.

Speaker 4 The whole thing just washed over him.

Speaker 1 All I was thinking about was William Shatner's cows.

Speaker 13 Anyway,

Speaker 1 you'd probably get, I reckon, a job on a science show.

Speaker 1 Maybe if I think you'd be a science advisor on a movie about a giant killer trout because, like, you're a Pisces, and I think you'd have a kind of innate understanding.

Speaker 1 Oh, so now all of a sudden, you're not into star signs. This is getting ridiculous.

Speaker 1 It is true, I've said it before, but anytime you find one of Brian's books in a second-hand shop, move it to astrology.

Speaker 18 It is such a lot of fun.

Speaker 1 Thanks very much, everyone. Bye-bye.

Speaker 16 without you counseling the infinite monkey cage.

Speaker 7 Till now nice again.

Speaker 21 Hello, I'm Dr.

Speaker 14 Michael Mosley and in my BBC Radio 4 podcast, Just One Thing, I'm investigating some quick, simple and surprising ways to improve your health and life. Which will you try? Maybe a cup of tea

Speaker 14 to help your heart health. Or breathing through your nose

Speaker 14 to fight off infection.

Speaker 14 How about a walk on a rainy day to boost your immune system?

Speaker 14 So, to benefit your brain and body in ways you might not expect, here's just one thing you can do right now.

Speaker 21 Subscribe to the podcast on BBC Sounds.

Speaker 18 Dashing through the store, Dave's looking for a gift. One you can't ignore, but not the socks he picks.

Speaker 13 I know, I'm putting them back.

Speaker 18 Hey, Dave, here's a tip. Put scratchers on your list.

Speaker 21 Oh, scratchers, good idea.

Speaker 18 It's an easy shopping trip. We're glad we could assist.

Speaker 21 Thanks, random singing people.

Speaker 18 So be like Dave this holiday and give the gift of play.

Speaker 16 Scratchers from the California lottery. A little play can make your day.

Speaker 8 Please play responsibly.

Speaker 1 Must be 18 years or older to purchase play or claim.