#2288 - Jacques Vallée

Speaker 0 Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out!

Speaker 1 The Joe Rogan Experience. Showing by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.

Speaker 2 We're up, sir. Very good to see you.

Speaker 1 Good to see you.

Speaker 2 I really enjoyed our conversation last night. We all went out to dinner, and Hal Putoff blew my mind.

Speaker 1 As you know, I've known him for a long time. Yeah, when did you meet him? What year?

Speaker 1 I knew him at SRI. SRI, Actually, I was at Stanford Research Institute before him

Speaker 1 in one of the very early internet research teams when there was no internet, was called the ARPANET.

Speaker 1 It was a network of the Advanced Research Project Agency, and it was all, you know, computer experiment and so on. I turned into, we had

Speaker 1 engine number three on the internet at SRI

Speaker 1 in California.

Speaker 1 So it was part of

Speaker 1 by the time I joined them, there were like 30 machines already.

Speaker 1 And it was exciting. And then,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 1 Dr. Putoff and Russell Tark came in with a proposal to SRI to do parapsychology research at SRI.

Speaker 1 which had never been done. And it was funny because

Speaker 1 I was already there, you know, in a team.

Speaker 2 What year was this?

Speaker 2 What year?

Speaker 1 Oh, God.

Speaker 1 74.

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 1 74.

Speaker 1 So the archives around 74.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 it was funny because I was in my office and the vice president of SRI came in,

Speaker 1 closed the door, and said,

Speaker 1 Jacques,

Speaker 1 you know, you've published some things that were controversial under your name on UFOs

Speaker 1 and you haven't lost your scientific reputation, which is why you're here working for us at SRI

Speaker 1 on the OPANET. But

Speaker 1 you know, there's a proposal from Dr. Putoff and Dr.
Tark to do parapsychology research here, And we've never done that.

Speaker 1 And I said, well, you know, it's a very valid, I think it's a very valid area of research. We should, you know, we're in the kind of institution that should do that.
He said, well,

Speaker 1 let me draw something on your whiteboard. And he drew a scale,

Speaker 1 a horizontal scale. And on

Speaker 1 one side, there was a a little square.

Speaker 1 He said, this is the most we can expect in terms of funding for research in parapsychology. You know, it's maybe at most a million a year.
Okay.

Speaker 1 And here is what I manage, you know, in this division. He drew a huge cube, you know, it said $150 million.

Speaker 1 Should we jeopardize the research we do for Xerox and IBM and AT ⁇ T, Bank of America and so on, just to do some research on, you know,

Speaker 1 psychic things.

Speaker 1 And I said, well,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 1 the reason we get all this money from DOD and Bank of America and so on is that we do the research that they can't do themselves.

Speaker 1 We do the, you know, we go out and we take risk.

Speaker 1 And I think we should take the same risk with

Speaker 1 Hal Pudoff and Russell Targ because this could be very big. There is a lot of literature on this already and we can bring the science into it and they can bring the science into it.

Speaker 1 And he said,

Speaker 1 well,

Speaker 1 there is a meeting of a board of directors of SRI

Speaker 1 in two days. And most of them are against it.

Speaker 1 What do I tell them?

Speaker 1 And I said, well,

Speaker 1 I can write up the reasons why in science you have to take chances, and this is science. I mean, this isn't just engineering.

Speaker 1 And he said, well, give me a memo by tomorrow at 12.

Speaker 1 So I went home and I wrote a two-page memo, which was confidential. I don't think anybody has seen it.

Speaker 1 for the board explaining why there was scientific evidence, you know, enough of it, so that good research could be done. And

Speaker 1 I,

Speaker 1 you know, obviously that may have helped in

Speaker 1 getting the approval for them to come in. And then after the first year, you know, they were there because,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 1 the money kept coming and the results can, you know, good scientific results

Speaker 1 came out of it.

Speaker 2 So when you say parapsychology, specifically what were you attempting to study?

Speaker 1 So most of parapsychology, as the name indicates, has been studied by psychologists.

Speaker 1 You know, people who have experiences and they relate their experiences and they have strange dreams, they have all that. And

Speaker 1 then

Speaker 1 that has been structured by

Speaker 1 people doing experiments. And for example, you know, trying to move objects with your mind, mind,

Speaker 1 trying to, of course,

Speaker 1 send messages psychically to other people,

Speaker 1 or guessing what's written in a closed envelope, and so on, that kind of thing.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 again, those were done by good experimentalists, but it was where is the physics of that? I mean, you know, because in physics, you know, those things are not supposed to happen.

Speaker 2 Without an understanding of a sense that perhaps we're not quite aware of.

Speaker 1 That's right. And that

Speaker 1 our physics has been dealing with objects and with atoms and all that.

Speaker 1 But it's clear in modern physics that there are other things and that the theories we have about the different fields in the universe are in conflict with each other.

Speaker 1 And our relativity and quantum mechanics are in conflict.

Speaker 2 I was reading something that was, God, I just, I glanced at it quickly and I was running out the door, but I was going to ask Jamie to pull it up.

Speaker 2 There's new research that shows that human beings have the ability to detect the magnetic field the same way that birds do when they fly south and and other animals, they believe, do when they navigate terrain.

Speaker 2 They think that human beings have this ability, that perhaps it's something that that we have ignored so long it's atrophied or it's not something that we use.

Speaker 1 That's a question for

Speaker 1 a biologist or specialist of the brain, although it may not be in the brain itself. It may be diffused in the organism.

Speaker 1 So I'm not really qualified.

Speaker 2 Well, I was going to ask Jamie to pull up the article, but the point being that there perhaps are senses that we're either not aware of. Humans, like other animals, may sense our smack down to field.

Speaker 1 Yeah, this is it. Okay, this is from a while ago.

Speaker 2 This is from 2019.

Speaker 2 Okay. This is not the same article, but it's probably a rehash.

Speaker 2 There's another similar one here from like a month ago that's the exact same title. Yes, that's what I saw.
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Speaker 1 You know,

Speaker 1 if you look at the history of the islands in the Pacific, like I spent some time in Tahiti and I looked at their traditions, they were navigating the Pacific fine. They knew where they were going.

Speaker 1 Now, part of that was navigating with the moon, but part of it was something else. And on every ship, they had one,

Speaker 1 you know, one

Speaker 1 man who was gifted in guiding with respect, of course, guiding with respect to what the ocean looked like and to the moon and so on. But also

Speaker 1 that's never really been explained. They had an uncanny ability to get to the right islands, you know, on the way to

Speaker 1 their destination and to guide those ships. Otherwise, they would have been, you know, they didn't have compasses.
Right.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 there are books now coming out, and certainly I found some of those books in

Speaker 1 Tahiti

Speaker 1 about

Speaker 1 the history of that and the research that's been done into those people.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 they were special people.

Speaker 1 They were gifted.

Speaker 1 That's not something

Speaker 1 that I could do.

Speaker 2 Have you heard or listened to the telepathy tapes?

Speaker 1 With that?

Speaker 2 The telepathy tapes. Are you aware of this?

Speaker 1 Vaguely.

Speaker 2 It's a podcast that's about nonverbal autistic kids that demonstrate psychic ability.

Speaker 1 Provable.

Speaker 2 They've got dozens of these cases on video where people in other rooms are looking at objects.

Speaker 2 The child, completely locked off, can't see them at all, will say and write down what those objects are, colors, numbers in sequence, and very accurately.

Speaker 2 And so they believe that this is something that well, many of these parents have talked about it in the past, but felt foolish, felt like it was something that they would be ridiculed about, and so they didn't want to talk about it openly.

Speaker 2 But once they started gathering up information, they got more people to open up about this, then they start documenting it.

Speaker 2 And they start coming up with ways to make sure that there couldn't be any possible way they could be communicating with each other.

Speaker 2 And it's just utterly fascinating because they're showing that there is something going on.

Speaker 2 There's some way of transferring information back and forth, including some of these teachers have figured out a way to not just receive, but also transmit the same way these children have.

Speaker 2 So, people that aren't nonverbal and

Speaker 2 they aren't autistic, these people are able to do it as well. They've been able to create a bond with these children and communicate with them.

Speaker 1 And there are companies in Silicon Valley that are heavily involved in advanced

Speaker 1 processing and invest programming, specifically recruiting young men and women with that kind of talent.

Speaker 1 One of my have three grandsons that I love, and one of them is

Speaker 1 it's not clear, you know, whether he's actually autistic in the current definition, but he certainly has some of that, you know, some of those indications of some sort of a gift.

Speaker 1 Yeah, of thinking and getting information in ways that are very different from the. Now, it may be that in evolution,

Speaker 1 the reason you know, sort of quote lower animals can do it and we cannot

Speaker 1 is that we've developed other ways of getting information that are more reliable in the long run.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 it may be just one of the dormant

Speaker 1 abilities that we have that most of us don't

Speaker 1 develop. And we're not encouraged to grow it in school because it's disturbing for the rest of the class and so on.

Speaker 2 And perhaps it's something that people had before language.

Speaker 2 And language and then written language and then of course media sort of eroded those abilities. Yes.

Speaker 1 And you find that also in South America and in Australia, you know, and

Speaker 1 Australia, New Zealand,

Speaker 2 and the indigenous people.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 1 Natives, but you know, up to the current population.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 So perhaps it's something that we all had, and we've lost it. Now, when you were initially studying parapsychology,

Speaker 2 what were the protocols that you were using? Like, how were you trying to determine whether or not people were capable?

Speaker 1 So,

Speaker 1 you know, again,

Speaker 1 in my own.

Speaker 1 I've studied parapsychology more as

Speaker 1 a personal interest, but

Speaker 1 Dr. Putoff and Dr.
Targ were doing it

Speaker 1 with scientific controls. I mean, that was the point.

Speaker 1 To look at it from a physics point of view,

Speaker 1 not just from a parapsychology or psychology point of view. So they were designing tests that were

Speaker 1 more tied to physical quantities. And one of the people that they brought in was Ingo Swan, who was an artist from New York.
He was very uncomfortable with California.

Speaker 1 The sky is always blue, you know, it's boring, and so on. And he liked New York, he liked

Speaker 1 the animation of the city and his friends, and so on. But I knew, of course, of him.
I had read some of the things.

Speaker 1 So when he came to SRI, he told me

Speaker 1 that, you know,

Speaker 1 remote viewing is one thing, parapsychology, but it should be applied to science. And also, you know, it had to be applied to

Speaker 1 intelligence in the sense of, you know,

Speaker 1 the the intelligence agencies were funding SRI to do this, okay?

Speaker 1 The three-letter, you know, agencies, there were a number of them who are very interested

Speaker 1 because they knew that gift existed in pilots and in a number of people.

Speaker 2 And so they were trying to figure out a way to utilize this for military applications?

Speaker 1 Mostly to look at developments in the Soviet Union at that point.

Speaker 2 Oh, so they were trying.

Speaker 1 But also,

Speaker 1 lost spacecraft, they found a lost spacecraft in the middle of a jungle in Africa

Speaker 1 by parapsychology.

Speaker 2 Whose spacecraft?

Speaker 1 Ours?

Speaker 1 No, it was Russian.

Speaker 2 So they found it through remote viewing?

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 Really?

Speaker 1 So Ingo was starting to go around the labs at SRI.

Speaker 1 He wanted to,

Speaker 1 he had never been in a scientific institution that's full of computers and gadgets and measuring instruments and everything else. So he wanted to know,

Speaker 1 he saw that as the next domain where parapsychology could be applied in a strict scientific, rational way.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 I was one of the people that he wanted to talk to. And

Speaker 1 I told him, do you know how a computer finds data?

Speaker 1 You have a computer, a machine full of

Speaker 1 chips. How does it deal with the real world? And he said, I have no idea.
I mean, I've never looked inside a computer. And I said, well, there's three ways.

Speaker 1 You know, as a programmer, I can declare a variable. I can say x is always going to be 3.14, okay,

Speaker 1 pi.

Speaker 1 But in many cases, I can give you the address of the place where I've put the data, but it's going to be different. The address is going to be the same, but the data is going to change every time.

Speaker 1 So, but I can give you the address, it's 2314. 2314 is where I'm going to put, you know, the age of the patient.
Okay?

Speaker 1 But it's going to be different with every patient. So that's

Speaker 1 direct addressing,

Speaker 1 but I can also put in that location, I can put the address

Speaker 1 of somewhere else which I'm going to compute in my program. And that's indirect addressing.
And then there's the rest of the world, which is too big to put inside the machine.

Speaker 1 I mean, the machine has a memory, maybe very big, but it's still limited. So it's going to go get the information from some memory device somewhere else.
You know, maybe the World Bank

Speaker 1 and or the Library of Congress. And there I cannot give you the address,

Speaker 1 but I can give you

Speaker 1 a sort of imaginary process by which you can derive the address when you get there and bring it into the memory of your computer and then work with it.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 he said, you know, that's it.

Speaker 1 That's what I need. And then he came up with

Speaker 1 the idea of coordinate remote viewing out of that conversation I had with him.

Speaker 1 So that was my contribution to the actual project at the beginning. And then he thought

Speaker 1 as an address, he was going to take coordinates, longitude and latitude, because

Speaker 1 we were going to look at,

Speaker 1 they were going to, I wasn't officially part of the,

Speaker 1 but I was... you know, I had passed

Speaker 1 qualifications to be at SRI in a Department of Defense project, so

Speaker 1 I was one of the good guys. So

Speaker 1 we had many conversations with Coffee and so on in the lab with

Speaker 1 Ingo and later with Yuri Geller that were absolutely fascinating to me. So I tried to,

Speaker 1 in some cases,

Speaker 1 they needed to talk to someone who knew technology and was interested in this, even though I wasn't

Speaker 1 on the project itself, but somebody who was inside, you know, so that

Speaker 1 the information didn't

Speaker 1 get out into the real world until they were ready to actually publish it, because everybody wanted to kill their project. I mean, there were so many skeptics saying, you know, this can't work.

Speaker 1 They are making it up.

Speaker 1 They are fooled by a press the digitator. You know, Yuri Gello is a magician, you know, all those things.
Well, he is a magician,

Speaker 1 but he's also, you know,

Speaker 1 an extraordinary.

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Speaker 1 Are you psychic?

Speaker 2 So, so could you explain,

Speaker 2 so they're looking for this Russian spacecraft. So how do they, what's the environment in which they remote view? How do they set this up?

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 Ingo,

Speaker 1 after the project was pretty much over,

Speaker 1 there was some continuous studies and Ingo

Speaker 1 brought me back to work with him

Speaker 1 because he wanted to write a book that would be a synthesis of his methodology, you know, to answer your question of how do you do this.

Speaker 1 And he had a very

Speaker 1 structured way of

Speaker 1 doing that with a number of

Speaker 1 what he wanted to do was train people to do that, hopefully to his level.

Speaker 1 So it was step by step. So there was a first,

Speaker 1 you had a pad of paper, you know, and a pen.

Speaker 1 And he was sitting at the end. The table was about like this, you know, except there was nothing on it.

Speaker 1 In a room that had nothing on the walls, no windows. There was a chair here and a chair there.
So he was away from me. I couldn't see what he was reading.
He had a stack of targets.

Speaker 1 that were places on the earth.

Speaker 1 And I mean, obviously, the idea was to look at what was going on in

Speaker 1 Vladivostok or in some

Speaker 2 when you say a stack of targets, can you explain like is it a map?

Speaker 2 Is it just coordinates?

Speaker 1 It was just coordinates. So just numbers? He had gotten the maps and those were test things from

Speaker 1 geographic features on the Earth, cities, mountains and so on. So

Speaker 1 he would read out the coordinates and I had a pad of paper and a number two pencil. So everything was very coded, you know, very strict.

Speaker 1 And I would draw

Speaker 1 something that he called an ideogram. So it could be like this, you know, it could be a curve, it could be.

Speaker 1 And then just first impression.

Speaker 1 His

Speaker 1 theory, which I think you know, having experienced it,

Speaker 1 we did that for a year. Now, I had a job somewhere else, but I was coming two mornings a week, you know, to work with him.
And this was classified. So

Speaker 1 other people at SRI had no idea what was going on in that room. That was dedicated to his work.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 he would read out, his idea was that

Speaker 1 we can all get that signal. You know, there is a signal.
If I give you a longitude and a latitude,

Speaker 1 you potentially can describe what's there. If it's a city, if it's a mountain, if it's

Speaker 1 someplace in the country.

Speaker 1 The reason you cannot is that the signal is overwhelming. The signal is extraordinarily large.
much larger than we can hold it in our brains.

Speaker 1 So the people who do that have a way of processing the signal and recalling it.

Speaker 1 And that's the secret.

Speaker 1 That's the main thing to me that's come out of the SRI study among many things.

Speaker 1 But so his idea was you have to stop the signal, you have to catch it. It's going to be very, very fast and most people just go on with their life.

Speaker 1 It's just a passing thing.

Speaker 1 But you can can recall the signal. So he would read out the coordinates again.

Speaker 1 And now my little scribble is going to turn into maybe a series of waves and then you know a city with skyscrapers after if we do that a number of ways. Now there are a lot of

Speaker 1 of errors that can come in and then we can we can think we recognize it and try to name it. That's the thing you can't you shouldn't do.

Speaker 1 You shouldn't try to name it because to name it put it in the other half of the brain, which is logical and rational and, you know.

Speaker 1 So the idea is to label that as an error. You know, it's not a city

Speaker 1 by the bay. It's something else.
So we go on and we keep just going on. So you have to do that with a very patient guide, you know, to train yourself to do that.
And SRI, you know, Hal and

Speaker 1 Ingo did that you know very well in training a cadre of people who could be almost not quite but almost as good as Ingo and there were a couple who were as good as good as he was one time now I I said but Ingo you know I'm not psychic he said well

Speaker 1 you know, think about that because you've shown evidence of having

Speaker 1 of understanding the process. You know, there are some things that I did that

Speaker 1 that would be classified as psychic, but I cannot do it. I cannot control it.

Speaker 2 Right, it just happens randomly. Yeah.

Speaker 2 What kind of things?

Speaker 1 Well, one time I get there at 8.30 in the morning, we close the door

Speaker 1 and he gives me a set of coordinates. longitude and latitude somewhere.
And I get very cold right away. And I I get dizzy.
You know, I mean,

Speaker 1 I have to grab the table and I'm not drawing anything. And Ingo says, Jacques, what's wrong?

Speaker 1 And I said, Ingo, I don't know where you're sending me, but I'm cold, I'm trembling, I'm afraid, I'm afraid of falling.

Speaker 1 And,

Speaker 1 you know, I really don't feel well.

Speaker 1 And he said, you're on top of a peak in the Andes.

Speaker 1 Whoa.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 he pulls out the thing.

Speaker 1 It gives it to me that comes from

Speaker 1 a photograph of the Andes taken from an airplane with this peak. And it computed the coordinates of the peak, and that's what he was giving me.
And I was there.

Speaker 2 You felt it physically. Did you see it or did you just feel it?

Speaker 1 No, it was just a physiological reaction of my whole body. I was trending.

Speaker 2 Exactly as if you were on

Speaker 1 the peak. And I was very afraid of falling.
Wow. I was falling.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 2 had you had any of these that didn't work? Did they try anything?

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, yes, sure. I'm not.

Speaker 1 You should not use me as a

Speaker 1 remote viewer to launch a tomahawk.

Speaker 1 over

Speaker 1 somewhere.

Speaker 1 That's a problem that, of course, the Army has. is it good enough so we can launch a rocket to destroy that thing? Right.

Speaker 2 Who is the best at it? Who's the best at remote? Is there one person that's consistently accurate?

Speaker 1 There are a couple, and

Speaker 1 they are not.

Speaker 1 You know, Ingo was known because he wrote about it and so on.

Speaker 1 Many of them, Joe McMarnigal

Speaker 1 is

Speaker 1 probably

Speaker 1 the best one alive today.

Speaker 1 He described

Speaker 1 a structure and he described a ship

Speaker 1 that was being built by the Russians, which was a super submarine in a hangar somewhere. And the Navy just laughed at him.
They said, that's crazy.

Speaker 1 It's in a hangar. you know

Speaker 1 away from the sea so why would you build a ship you know when you don't have the ocean?

Speaker 1 Well, it turned out he was right. And it was a super class

Speaker 1 new Soviet submarine. He described the inside of the building, which had no windows and so on.

Speaker 1 And yeah, I mean from a satellite they could see the building, but they couldn't see inside the building.

Speaker 1 He described what was inside the building, he described the submarine, he described the the length and the you know he actually

Speaker 1 measured it psychically. And that turned out to be right.
And then when the submarine was built, they brought some bulldozers and they dug

Speaker 1 a channel to the sea and off it went.

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Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 those things were extraordinary.

Speaker 2 I had heard about this, but I didn't know it was that accurate.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that happened. And he was,

Speaker 1 as opposed to, you know, one of us,

Speaker 1 he was right, you know, enough of the time that you could rely on what he was describing. And also,

Speaker 1 they came up with a way of measuring, actually qualifying the value of your perception, you know.

Speaker 1 So I talked to Ingo, you know, let's do another one because I'm on a roll here, you know, after this peak in the Andes. He said, no, Jacques.
you know, you're going home now.

Speaker 1 I said, it's nine o'clock, you know, we've only been here half an hour. Why are you sending me home? I mean, this is great.

Speaker 1 I got it.

Speaker 1 He said, yeah, you got it.

Speaker 1 You don't need all the levels. I mean, you got to the top level.
You were there.

Speaker 2 Why did he want to send you home?

Speaker 1 He said, I want you to stay with that feeling. I don't want to do another one.
that you'd miss. So I want you to keep that in mind because you got the whole thing.

Speaker 2 Is this based on past experiments and the way they were achieving results?

Speaker 1 Yes. So he didn't want to bombard you with

Speaker 1 every test subject. Right.

Speaker 2 So he didn't want to give you another experience. He wanted you to take that experience and just sit with it.

Speaker 1 Keep the experience with me during the day

Speaker 1 because I got the whole signal. Right.

Speaker 2 And did you feel like that if you did that, it would aid you in your ability to do it in the future?

Speaker 1 It would.

Speaker 1 Yes, I would lose that sense of

Speaker 1 direct access to something that bypasses the brain. You know,

Speaker 1 I'm

Speaker 1 basically, you know, I was trained in mathematics and physics and astronomy. So

Speaker 1 I use the part of my brain that's analytical, you know, and I'm a good programmer.

Speaker 1 computer programmer and so on.

Speaker 1 This is not, this is very different. This is grabbing a signal which has everything in it, you know, and being able to

Speaker 1 catch it very fast and just get a little bit of information and then catch it again, recall it, you know, and that's what we were doing that, you know, five times, six times, ten times, until making sure that you don't try to name it, you don't try to

Speaker 1 put, you know, a description on top of it, just stay with the signal. And I think that's an amazing contribution from what Dr.
Putoff and Targ and some of their subjects did.

Speaker 2 Was there a

Speaker 2 specific way that you achieved a state of mind that made you more able to perceive these coordinates or perceive

Speaker 2 what signal you're getting from remote viewing?

Speaker 1 There was

Speaker 1 I had a lot of admiration and love for Ingo, for what he was capable of doing and

Speaker 1 his art and his personality and so on.

Speaker 1 He was very much admired in the whole team.

Speaker 1 And here I think it was the structure also of the experiment. You know,

Speaker 1 I trusted what he was trying to teach me. I've always...

Speaker 2 So you were open to it.

Speaker 2 Yes. You trusted it, so you're open to it.

Speaker 1 I had, you know, both the admiration and the trust.

Speaker 2 Did he ask you to put your mind in a specific place? Did you there was it was there a way of counting yourself into it?

Speaker 1 The idea is not to put my mind into it, you know,

Speaker 1 just to let it come.

Speaker 2 Just let it come. Just let it come.

Speaker 1 Because my mind is analytical. Right.

Speaker 1 Of course. And

Speaker 1 you know, I've I was always

Speaker 1 very good in math uh and

Speaker 1 um

Speaker 1 you know, I mean you have to be if you're going to be uh an astronomer.

Speaker 1 And the

Speaker 1 so I can be very structured and so on. This is not structured, this is boom.

Speaker 1 And then

Speaker 1 then you can begin to uh analyze it, but you have to analyze it keeping your

Speaker 1 your rational mind, you know, uh away from

Speaker 2 so you just have to let the information come to you somehow or another and not try to imagine the information or create the information or see what it is.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 Just let it happen to you.

Speaker 2 And so you had seen him do this.

Speaker 2 And so you and you knew that this was a valid field of research. So you were just open to it and you just sat down there and tried to let it happen to you.
Did it happen any other time

Speaker 2 that resembled the Andes peaks? Where you have that overwhelming feeling of cold and falling? Did you have that feeling with anything else?

Speaker 1 Yes, I had some of that, but this one was

Speaker 1 just completely shocking because it was. And I think that's a characteristic of when you really get it.

Speaker 1 There is no question.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 you know, in the movie Patton,

Speaker 1 Patton is sent to North Africa because to fight Rommel.

Speaker 1 Rommel is there with his tanks and the American army is going to,

Speaker 1 isn't ready to invade Europe, but wants to start

Speaker 1 controlling the Germans in North Africa. He's sent there, he lands, there is a

Speaker 1 you know, a lieutenant there with a jeep that takes him to the place place where

Speaker 1 there was a battle and the Americans were decimated by Rommel, who was just a genius

Speaker 1 German general,

Speaker 1 great with tanks, just like he was.

Speaker 1 Patton considered him as his major

Speaker 1 enemy because both of them understood tanks.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 so Patton gets him the jeep. That's in the movie.
It's just absolutely perfect. I've checked that this was historical, you know, exact in the movie.

Speaker 1 They drive to the site of the battle

Speaker 1 and they get to, in the desert in the jeep. And they get to a fork in the road.
And

Speaker 1 the driver takes to the left. And Patton said,

Speaker 1 Son, you know, why don't we go to the right? Because that's where the battle was.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 the driver says, sir,

Speaker 1 you know, with all due respect, I mean, I was there in that battle, it's on the left. He said,

Speaker 1 trust me, go to the right. And they go to the right, and they get to the edge of a plateau where you see a big plain.

Speaker 1 And Patton says, this is where the battle was.

Speaker 1 Hannibal came from the left with his elephants, you know, and the battle was there, you know, in

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 I was, I had been there, I was there.

Speaker 1 Patton thought that

Speaker 1 he was reincarnated from a

Speaker 1 Roman

Speaker 1 general who had been at that battle against Hannibal and his elephants. And

Speaker 1 you know, the poor driver

Speaker 1 said, you know,

Speaker 1 how did this happen? You know, how did I get here with this general who thinks he's reincarnated, you know,

Speaker 1 who fought against Hannibal. And

Speaker 1 I've worked with people, as you know, I've run a number of venture capital

Speaker 1 funds

Speaker 1 with people who had that kind of intuition, you know, and you think

Speaker 1 you think finance is driven by greed and so on, but at some level, greed doesn't really matter.

Speaker 1 It's getting to the truth of something, especially in venture capital, where you're going to change the way things are done.

Speaker 1 With these gadgets, with computers, with

Speaker 1 rockets and so on.

Speaker 1 You're going to go to a new generation of things. So it hasn't been done before.
And

Speaker 1 the financial people,

Speaker 1 you've got ten engineers in front of you who can do it. There is one who will succeed, nine who's going to fail.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 you have to pick

Speaker 1 the thinking that's going to succeed.

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 1 it's not the money.

Speaker 1 And it's not the technology. It's the mind of the driver who'll say, no, let's go to the right, let's not go to the left.

Speaker 1 You know, I mean, Patton was extraordinary in that, I mean, he was a remote viewer.

Speaker 1 And he demonstrated that again and again. You know,

Speaker 1 there are some interesting books that I've collected from

Speaker 1 some of his lieutenants, you know, who

Speaker 2 You would also have to consider that's an extraordinary state of mind. To be a general in a world war and the consequences of everything you do and what is at stake in this war is

Speaker 2 got to be a state of mind that's very, very unusual with so many consequences and so much pressure that it probably makes some signals more clear if you have that ability to perceive them.

Speaker 2 Because you are, you must be in a heightened state of awareness because just of the consequences of your life.

Speaker 1 Exactly.

Speaker 1 But you also have to be detached. I mean, you know, eventually he's going to go to the battlefield where the

Speaker 1 bodies of soldiers who have been killed, they're burning tanks and everything else. They show that in the movie.
I mean, that's where he's supposed to go.

Speaker 1 Yeah. But,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 1 his mind is at a different level.

Speaker 2 When did they first start researching this? And when did they believe that this was an ability that some people had?

Speaker 1 Oh,

Speaker 1 you know, way back in antiquity.

Speaker 2 Really? Yeah.

Speaker 1 And,

Speaker 1 you know, they had

Speaker 2 seers

Speaker 1 that

Speaker 1 the king would go consult

Speaker 1 whether he

Speaker 1 he should engage in a war with,

Speaker 1 you know, they had the Greeks at the Pythia, you know who was

Speaker 1 a woman who they they had an area a volcanic area where there were fumes coming out of the earth you know that was supposed to be one of the doors to the underworld and so on and there was a a special

Speaker 1 cult around that that place and

Speaker 1 you know the

Speaker 1 the king would go there before a great decision and

Speaker 1 would ask the message from

Speaker 1 the underworld or the message from

Speaker 1 the mind of the woman who was interpreting what was coming from the earth. So that has been

Speaker 1 regarded as

Speaker 1 you know

Speaker 1 Hitler, Adolf Hitler

Speaker 1 was

Speaker 1 in in his

Speaker 1 ear before the war, you know,

Speaker 1 when he got to be the leader of Germany,

Speaker 1 he exhibited and he very much believed in those

Speaker 1 powers. I think he got to the point where he trusted it too much and he started making mistakes and that could be used against him.

Speaker 1 Because of the ego.

Speaker 1 You know, you have to get the ego out of the way. And of course that's the hardest thing

Speaker 1 for us to do.

Speaker 2 Especially to a narcissist dictator who's on drugs.

Speaker 1 That's right.

Speaker 1 Yeah. That's right.

Speaker 2 Well that that's the always the age-old problem with Sears. Like how do you know who's a charlatan and who's real? Because there's always a bunch of fake psychics.

Speaker 2 There's fake palm readers, fake tarot card readers, people that are just con artists that are just trying to swindle people out of money.

Speaker 2 But that doesn't discount the possibility that some people have

Speaker 2 these bizarre abilities. And that is something that people have sort of recognized forever.

Speaker 2 But it's always been dismissed, especially in this modern day reductionist culture that likes to only look at things that are, you know,

Speaker 2 tried, true, proven, agreed upon, you know, and then trust the science, like this concept that.

Speaker 1 Well, I think as, you know,

Speaker 1 in science, I mean, the burden is on you as a scientist to come up with an experiment that will discriminate between the random things

Speaker 1 and,

Speaker 1 you know, will give you will give you s guides to, you know.

Speaker 2 Well, I think that's what they've done with the telepathy tapes.

Speaker 2 And I'm hoping the success of this and then they're going to do a whole series on it where they're doing a documentary and they're showing all the footage.

Speaker 2 So you you're going to be able to see it for yourself. And

Speaker 2 I'm hoping that this stops the ridicule because there's a bunch of scientists when, and I think this is with the UAP topic as well, the UFO topic as well.

Speaker 2 I think there's a bunch of people that don't want to consider it because there's too much bullshit out there and there's too much of a possibility that you could look like a fool.

Speaker 2 And to a very respected scientist whose research is very important, as we were talking about, with the IBM thing, where there's hundreds of millions of dollars that are dedicated towards these.

Speaker 2 Why would you risk all that and the credibility of all that on this nonsense about people seeing things with their brain in a closed room, finding coordinates, pretending they're on top of a mountain, all that kind of stuff?

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 fortunately,

Speaker 1 you know, certainly in

Speaker 1 California, there are people who can take risk

Speaker 1 and put a few million dollars behind yeah behind behind something. Shout out to Stanford.

Speaker 1 And as you know, I come from France and in France

Speaker 1 it's very, very hard to do that, you know, because the system is very structured and very conventional and so on.

Speaker 1 Even though France has had some of the brightest people in that kind of research.

Speaker 2 So it's just a cultural limitation of the culture?

Speaker 1 Yeah. The system.

Speaker 1 Everything has to be rational.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 America is a little more chaotic.

Speaker 1 And they also,

Speaker 1 as you know, France has had, for a long time, has had a project on UFOs, official project,

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 that takes reports from the public and they investigate them. And

Speaker 1 it's a very small team, but they have access to all the resources of French research. So

Speaker 1 they can get the weather people, they can get the

Speaker 1 Air Force, they can get the radar people, they can get all of that. So they can tap into the resources of a lot of different departments of the government.
So

Speaker 1 it's very powerful. So

Speaker 1 they will explain, they find a rational explanation for about 95% of all the reports.

Speaker 1 Which is true. I agree with that.

Speaker 1 I've been there.

Speaker 2 So it's about 95%

Speaker 1 you can explain away it's not hoaxes those are you know people who really think that they've seen something unusual right but what they what was unusual to them may have been the moon rising through the fog and it looks like an elongated disk and and then after a while it's

Speaker 1 things change and so on and they're not

Speaker 1 they they really think they've seen a flying saucer coming over or they

Speaker 1 There are about 200 or 250 possible physical things that

Speaker 1 really could surprise you, you know, that are unusual, that would create conditions under which a normal person would think that they are in the presence of a UFO. Then, you know,

Speaker 1 what's interesting is the other 5%.

Speaker 1 The other 5% is in your face.

Speaker 1 You know, I have

Speaker 1 reports of

Speaker 1 something that moved like the tic-tac, you know, from the French Air Force in the 50s. There was a French jet over Morocco that was flying and there was a radar

Speaker 1 tracking the jet and I had

Speaker 1 the reports from the French Air Force with the chart and that the thing he was chasing went up, you know, all in a fraction of a second, went to the top of the atmosphere, you know, just like the Nimitz case.

Speaker 1 So those things are not new. I mean, they are in the files if you take the trouble to look at the files.

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Rated M for mature.

Speaker 2 They're in the files far back enough in history that it's impossible to imagine human technology achieving these things.

Speaker 1 Absolutely. Well, especially in the 50s.

Speaker 1 Right. Well, the Kenneth Arnold case.

Speaker 2 Yeah, there's a bunch of cases that

Speaker 2 rule out the possibility of human technology. When you're talking about people using propeller planes and seeing these things,

Speaker 2 we were at a time technologically where it's not possible to imagine that someone had gone that far beyond us.

Speaker 2 Now we are in that time where you see things, you go, well, how much of that is some sort of top secret government program, some military program, and they have drones that can move at extraordinary speeds with some

Speaker 2 undisclosed propulsion system. That's possible today, at least theoretically.

Speaker 2 We entertain those ideas. But back then, this is one of the more fascinating things.
I told you last night that I consumed three of your books in the last six months. And

Speaker 2 there was this series of three that you did that had a bunch of different encounters. Not just right now, I'm on the Invisible College, but the last ones that I read were

Speaker 2 the ones on various contacts that people have had and the similarity of these stories. And they go way back, way back, way back before it was sort of a cultural artifact.
Like right now, I think

Speaker 2 in people's minds, the gray aliens are so iconic. A flying saucer like that, that's a copy of the sport model from Bob Lazar's Adventures.

Speaker 2 These things are in pop culture to the point where you almost would expect to see them. You know, you look for them.

Speaker 2 If you see something, you could imagine that you could twist it up in your mind and make it like that. But the problem is these stories go way way before that.

Speaker 2 They're too similar. They go a long, long way back, and there's too many that are

Speaker 2 very, very similar to what we're talking about today, to the point where

Speaker 2 a rational person would have to say, maybe there's something more to this. What do you got there?

Speaker 1 I brought you this. It's a token.
It's not a coin. It's a token from Burgundy in France from the, you know,

Speaker 1 a few centuries ago.

Speaker 1 The Duke of

Speaker 1 Burgundy was under attack. There was a lot of turmoil in French politics and the king was fighting.

Speaker 1 The noble, the great nobility and so on was in cahoots to get rid of the king and so on and they were going to be attacked and he needed money to raise an army and he appealed to people in Burgundy to send him money and this was a token that that they would the the the the king the

Speaker 1 the duke you know would give people who had given him money to raise this army and

Speaker 1 on the face of it is this disc

Speaker 1 that's holding up

Speaker 1 that's protecting the land from forces above. You know, there are all these arrows raining down on the land, and the land is protected by this flying disk.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 it doesn't mean that they had seen a flying saucer at that time, but the idea has always been there of

Speaker 1 you know

Speaker 1 disc-like objects that

Speaker 1 were not meteors, that that were not, you know, all the natural explanation, that that were real discs. You find that in legends, you find that in you know in history.

Speaker 2 Jimmy, can you see if you could find an image of this we could show people? You found it? Yeah, that's it. Yep.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 1 And uh you see it's it's protecting the land uh and it's hovering in the sky, uh protecting it from all the thunder clouds above.

Speaker 1 Well, you know, there are a few of those things in history. And

Speaker 1 I've, as you know, I've collected those with

Speaker 1 a

Speaker 1 group of.

Speaker 2 Couldn't that be interpreted as a shield?

Speaker 1 Well, it is shown as a shield

Speaker 1 that's going to stop all those arrows. Right.

Speaker 2 But that's what they used to stop arrows back then. They used a shield.
Yes. So doesn't that just make, I mean, that doesn't seem to me to be a UFO.

Speaker 2 It seems to me to be a shield that they would protect.

Speaker 1 Yes, but it's also, you know,

Speaker 1 it's not exactly the shape of

Speaker 1 a shield. Most shields are

Speaker 1 more oblong, but some of them are round. But

Speaker 1 the point is it's hovering in the sky, protecting the land underneath.

Speaker 2 I think some of the more compelling stuff is like the stuff in the ancient Hindu scripts, the Vimanas and all these different flying crafts that people described.

Speaker 2 They've always been a thing that people have described.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 we've been able to trace it to actual investigations or actual records because of course when people described something like that, especially if there was some sort of being associated with it, you know, it could be the devil, it could be that.

Speaker 1 So they had to see a priest and confess and

Speaker 1 they were in trouble. If you reported that thing,

Speaker 1 most of the time you'd be in trouble because

Speaker 1 it couldn't be a normal thing. So

Speaker 1 today they just, you know, they just fire you from wherever you work. Yeah, probably

Speaker 1 you're a kook.

Speaker 2 And then

Speaker 1 they don't burn you alive anymore.

Speaker 2 And people, yeah, that's lucky.

Speaker 2 But people do have a fear, a legitimate fear, of being ridiculed, and that could stop their ability to be promoted within whatever organization they're in.

Speaker 2 You don't want to think, oh, there's Kooky Bob over there who thinks the aliens are watching us.

Speaker 1 The best cases I get

Speaker 1 are from executives in Silicon Valley whose family has seen something or who have seen something, and they've described, you know,

Speaker 1 frankly, UFOs to me. And

Speaker 1 there's another one. There's a different coin from a day or later.

Speaker 2 So that looks way different.

Speaker 2 So that coin is much more compelling because that looks like something flying in the sky above the city. That doesn't look like a shield at all.
And what is that peak at the bottom of it?

Speaker 2 That's the same thing, whatever. Yeah, that's very different.

Speaker 1 You can tell.

Speaker 1 Those things have been in the culture. Yeah.

Speaker 1 They've sort of repressed in the culture.

Speaker 1 And the anthropologists don't want to look at that.

Speaker 1 There's a really old painting,

Speaker 2 like a biblical painting, of these people that look like they're flying around and seated in these crafts. Yes.
They're in the sky.

Speaker 2 I've never seen any sort of a conventional explanation of what is that artist depicting.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 usually the explanation,

Speaker 1 when you read

Speaker 1 what the historians have said,

Speaker 1 it's supposed to be

Speaker 1 some god or some higher level entity that's coming to protect people and so on. But when you look at the detail, I mean it really looks like a machine.
It really looks mechanical.

Speaker 2 See if you can find that image, Jamie. You know the one I'm talking about is this one.
Yeah, that's exactly.

Speaker 1 But we wanted to see that.

Speaker 2 Like the one on the lower right, well, both of them, but the lower, like, what is that? That looks like a craft. It looks like someone seated in a craft.

Speaker 1 It's an

Speaker 1 envoy from God or

Speaker 1 an angel who's been sent. But the problem with those is that the painting, you know, it may relate to something that was written in the third century.
The painting is a 16th century painting.

Speaker 1 So we didn't look at that that much.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's interesting from a simple, like the one with the virgin, with the, you know, so it may be that the the artist was witness to something and he wanted to memorialize it and he put it in his painting but it's not tied to the time of the virgin you know right right right they just added it in there we can't uh so that's in our book we stayed away from that we we wanted to go to records of somebody having actually testified that he saw something or she saw something

Speaker 2 Right, not just artwork.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 But it just is very bizarre that this artwork continually depicts people in crafts.

Speaker 2 And look, what is that thing?

Speaker 1 And there is a communication with the man who's looking up at it. He's looking at it and there is a sense of that he's actually seeing it and

Speaker 1 having a sense of what it is.

Speaker 2 It's like an Easter egg that someone put into the painting.

Speaker 1 So this is

Speaker 1 a very that the artist sort of

Speaker 1 put that in as

Speaker 1 a side.

Speaker 1 Of course, the main theme is the Virgin and the Child.

Speaker 2 What's that one over there, Jamie, in the second row that says inside ancient? Yeah, that one.

Speaker 2 What the hell is that? That's what really freaks me out is the paintings on cave walls that look just like greys.

Speaker 2 These bizarre paintings of things that

Speaker 1 just look like they are people wearing helmets.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 the most interesting to me come from the Sahara. You know,

Speaker 1 the

Speaker 1 friends who are anthropologists who worked with the UN in

Speaker 1 Africa and so on, and

Speaker 1 in part of the Sahara. And

Speaker 1 what

Speaker 1 one theory they have is that

Speaker 1 the culture that eventually moved to Egypt came from the Sahara. So I say, well, the Sahara is just sand.
Well, it's just sand today.

Speaker 1 But we know that at one time it was flourishing. There were forests.
There was water. In fact, there is water, but it's underground water.
It's a large amount of underground water.

Speaker 1 There was a sea there at one time. And

Speaker 1 so

Speaker 1 there probably was an earlier civilization, and some of those come from the Tassili. The Tassili is a region in the Sahara where there are a lot of those representations.

Speaker 1 So there were a lot of people living there at one time, and they painted that on the rocks.

Speaker 2 See if you can find some of those, Jamie.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 then you see similar things that Indigenous people in Australia have painted, similar things it's all over the world

Speaker 2 in completely separate environments, very similar features um in these cave paintings.

Speaker 1 And um

Speaker 1 well, I I think uh archaeologists wouldn't disagree with that, I think. They would say but the problem is that we don't correlate it.
I mean, they didn't write anything. Right.
You know, the um

Speaker 1 we don't have a good good correlation, so we have to keep looking for that.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 that's fascinating. But in our book, we made the rule that, number one,

Speaker 1 we don't want isolated human figures, even with

Speaker 1 suits and so on.

Speaker 1 We really want

Speaker 1 a device, a flying device.

Speaker 1 Otherwise,

Speaker 1 you could fill 40 books with images of strange creatures.

Speaker 1 I mean, what are the things that people see, you know, in

Speaker 1 around the ranch now, you know, in

Speaker 1 Utah, and in

Speaker 1 Arizona, and in all of that. So

Speaker 1 have to be careful

Speaker 1 on the boundaries of

Speaker 1 those things.

Speaker 1 But we we wanted to

Speaker 1 get to a place where there was testimony about somebody seeing a flying disk that was strange to them in their culture. And remember, in those cultures, those were agricultural cultures.

Speaker 1 So with people who were used to interpreting the weather, looking at the phases of the moon, looking at the rising time of the sun, and all that was important for their

Speaker 1 agriculture. So

Speaker 1 they knew their environment very well,

Speaker 1 better than we do as people living in cities. So

Speaker 1 we can take that to some extent that has a scientific value, especially when you can build a model of

Speaker 1 a number of those across different

Speaker 1 centuries. But in that book, we were careful to break the book into

Speaker 1 sections

Speaker 1 corresponding to different evolutions of the culture, explaining first a couple of pages what was happening during that time in terms of new inventions like when the telescope was invented,

Speaker 1 when certain things were discovered and so on. So we were careful to put it in context with every

Speaker 1 reinterpreting

Speaker 1 the description by the witness in the context that was appropriate.

Speaker 2 Well, it was very thorough and very objective, which is what I really enjoyed about it, where you were very clear what we absolutely knew and very clear what could be nonsense and myth. And that

Speaker 2 one of the things that keeps occurring over and over again is these similar stories. The stories are really similar from the 1700s to the 1800s into the 20th century.
And then you

Speaker 2 again, now it gets more muddy because now you have a bunch of people that realize that there's value in concocting a story and then talking about it and selling a book.

Speaker 2 And there's I think there's people that are grifters, and I think they, you know, I probably had a few of them on.

Speaker 2 They are capitalizing on this desire that people have for stories.

Speaker 1 Well, also now

Speaker 1 we think that the government has the answer.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 people spend their time

Speaker 1 writing to different agencies and

Speaker 1 listening to reports from pilots, which is fine, of course,

Speaker 1 and people in the military, people in the intelligence community. But

Speaker 1 those are very valuable because

Speaker 1 now they have instruments

Speaker 1 to actually measure what they see on an F-18 and so on. And they are covered by radar and by AWACS and everything else.
So we can rely on that.

Speaker 1 So scientists and many people like the numerical aspect of it. I don't do that.

Speaker 1 I don't pretend to have access to that. I mean, we had access under Bigelow, you know, and under Bas

Speaker 1 to some of that,

Speaker 1 you know, including some of the classified things that had happened. But there is a much richer pool of data, which is,

Speaker 1 you know, a friend tells me about the sighting in the country somewhere. I can go there, I can go see the people, and I can find out, you know, exactly what happened.
And

Speaker 1 I continue to do that. And that's most of my data.
And it's ten times bigger than the stuff they talk about from the Pentagon.

Speaker 1 You know, I mean, it's real data from that and I don't need to have a clearance to go see

Speaker 1 the people and sit down. If I'm lucky, they'll invite me for lunch and

Speaker 1 I can talk to the kids, I can talk to the wife, I can talk to the people who took care of the cattle and they'll tell me. And

Speaker 1 that's where most of my information is really coming from. And it's not, you know, it's just very much in your face.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 it's consistent.

Speaker 2 How consistent are the shapes of the crafts?

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Speaker 1 It's a tough question. You know,

Speaker 1 many of the descriptions have to do with disks.

Speaker 1 You know.

Speaker 2 And eggs as well.

Speaker 1 Different sizes. You know.
Some of them are very large.

Speaker 1 A number of descriptions have to do with,

Speaker 1 for a long time, with cigar-shaped objects,

Speaker 1 cylindrical and rounded at the end, sometimes with what people describe as windows that may just be openings with light, you know, in the

Speaker 1 side of it. It doesn't have to be what we think of as a window.
And then you have some irregular shapes, you know, just balls of of light

Speaker 1 that

Speaker 1 physicists interpret as maybe plasma, but plasma doesn't survive in the air, you know, shouldn't survive in the air more than a minute maybe.

Speaker 1 But people have, you know, seen some of those things for minutes and

Speaker 1 longer, you know, long enough to take pictures of it, so on. And it's not necessarily glowing, it's not necessarily luminous the way

Speaker 1 plasma would be. So

Speaker 1 we don't know what they are, and they've been reported

Speaker 1 all over the world. Again, there are

Speaker 1 paintings of that kind of thing from the 18th century or the 17th century.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 that I've collected and published. So

Speaker 2 what are are the most compelling paintings that we could find right now from like the 1700s or 1800s?

Speaker 1 I think there is a

Speaker 1 beautiful painting of hills and three

Speaker 1 blue

Speaker 1 spheres

Speaker 1 that are not moving, that seem to be suspended in the air,

Speaker 1 very distinct blue spheres that were seen and somebody

Speaker 1 recorded it and somebody did a painting of the scene. Those are things that people wanted to remember because they knew it was.

Speaker 2 And what year was this painting from?

Speaker 1 I don't remember the year. I couldn't tell you.
But it's a very old painting. 16th, 17th century.

Speaker 2 Do you know the name of it? Like, so Jamie could try to find it online?

Speaker 1 No, could I could send you the picture. Okay.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 Um so

Speaker 2 there's also a bunch of d uh depictions of egg-shaped crafts.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 This is very common as well, right?

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 And um

Speaker 2 the the couple that uh you uh had in one of your books from was it the the mining people

Speaker 2 from um was it n California or was it you was it the minority?

Speaker 1 I uh

Speaker 1 wrote a

Speaker 1 book

Speaker 1 with Paula Harris called Trinity

Speaker 1 about an egg-shaped object that happened in 1945

Speaker 1 near

Speaker 1 White Sands.

Speaker 1 And now we have reinvestigated it. The first book was criticized

Speaker 1 appropriately by someone who said, I hadn't gone to enough of the written records. Well, now I've done that.
So we've republished the book. It's called Trinity.

Speaker 1 And it covers

Speaker 1 three cases. In all three cases, the object is X-shaped, the size of a medium-sized truck.

Speaker 1 It would fit in this room.

Speaker 1 It would be about the size of this room.

Speaker 1 Then there is a case in Socorro.

Speaker 1 And there is a case in Valencia.

Speaker 1 Sokoro and Valenciol,

Speaker 1 and people have concentrated on the first one, you know, the one that, because

Speaker 1 it's two years before Roswell, and there were witnesses there. You know, in Roswell, there were no witnesses.

Speaker 1 There were people who came later, who found the stuff, and they reconstructed the story, and it's a very interesting story. But at

Speaker 1 Trinity, they saw it arrive, and they saw it crash. And they were there for ten days afterwards, watching the recovery.
So we and they went inside.

Speaker 1 One of them went inside and his father went inside also. So we have a very rich description of that and where is it in the literature? Nowhere.
I mean,

Speaker 1 Paula Harris found this,

Speaker 1 did research for four years on that, and then told me about it. And then we did another four years of research together at the site.
And we found a lot of correlations.

Speaker 1 But the Socorro case and the Valencia case.

Speaker 2 Could you explain tell me before we move on to those other cases, what correlations did you find?

Speaker 1 Well

Speaker 1 the in all three cases it's an egg-shaped object.

Speaker 1 In all three cases there are traces that could be seen, could be d uh

Speaker 1 described, could be uh analyzed. In all three cases the beings are short.

Speaker 1 They are, you know, about

Speaker 1 three feet, three and a half feet.

Speaker 1 They breathe air.

Speaker 1 And what kind of extraterrestrial is that that comes here and breathes the air? Okay, we don't go. If we go to the moon, we're not going to breathe the air.

Speaker 2 How do we know that it breathes at all?

Speaker 2 How do we know that these things breathe at all?

Speaker 1 Just because they... They had no breathing normal.

Speaker 2 Right, but how do we even know

Speaker 2 biological?

Speaker 1 They had two eyes,

Speaker 1 a small nose, a small mouth.

Speaker 2 But couldn't they possibly be some sort of a creation?

Speaker 2 Instead of being a biological entity, couldn't they be some sort of artificial life?

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 I've asked

Speaker 1 Gary Nolan about that.

Speaker 1 I'm not a biologist.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I think

Speaker 1 it would be known if somebody had created

Speaker 1 meta-human.

Speaker 2 I don't mean somebody, I mean another life form from somewhere else.

Speaker 1 There were stories of the Russians

Speaker 1 actually

Speaker 1 thinking about creating

Speaker 1 a dwarf

Speaker 1 human to pilot their ships because they didn't expect to have the energy

Speaker 1 to have a big rocket.

Speaker 1 It turned out they found Korolev. Oh, so they were trying to get tiny people to power their ships because they were lighter.
But the the CIA was looking into rumors that the Russians in the 50s,

Speaker 1 you know, before Sputnik, that the Russians were trying to create a

Speaker 1 a humanoid

Speaker 1 that that could pilot a spaceship.

Speaker 2 Well, I know that the Russians, there was some talk of them trying to create a human-ape hybrid.

Speaker 2 They were trying to do something with chimpanzees and try to create some sort of a human-chimpanzee hybrid for war, which is a terrifying thought

Speaker 2 that they would, first of all, if they were successful, how terrifying would that be? But just that they were interested in doing that, creating a race of chimpanzee human warriors.

Speaker 1 There was no,

Speaker 1 to my knowledge, there hasn't been any correlation of that and the creatures that are described in Socorro

Speaker 1 in New Mexico and in Valenciol in France,

Speaker 1 so those are three cases that I've been very involved in from the beginning,

Speaker 1 from day one,

Speaker 1 involve creatures that are about you know, three feet tall, that breathe our air, recognize our signals, you know, communicate with us in funny ways, even mentally.

Speaker 1 I mean, the witnesses describe getting images in their minds and so on, in all three cases. And

Speaker 1 what's interesting is, you know, people can argue about Trinity all they want, like they argue about Roswell, but the case in Socorro and the case in France, in Valenciol, were investigated by governments, you know, not by

Speaker 1 you know, the local UFO group, although the local UFO group did a good job in all those cases. But they were in Sokoro, it was first the you know, the local police, local policemen

Speaker 1 saw the craft and the beings and described what happened.

Speaker 1 He was terrified, but you know, when the thing took off,

Speaker 1 he thought it was something to do with some new gadget or some work in the desert.

Speaker 1 It's an area that's still in the same state today. I've gone back there with Dr.
Hynek's son, you know,

Speaker 1 with Paul Hyneck a few months ago. I've gone several times there.
And so after the police,

Speaker 1 turned out the FBI was in town on another case. They had no jurisdiction in New Mexico for that particular case.
It wasn't a federal case, but they helped preserve the traces, you know, the FBI way.

Speaker 1 And the local police was happy to have them there. And then there was the state police came in and did an investigation.
And then people from the base, you know,

Speaker 1 came in with experts in

Speaker 1 explosives, experts in recovery,

Speaker 1 of weapons and rockets and so on, because they thought it might be something that had come from

Speaker 1 the Trinity Range that was out of its way and had crashed near Socorro, in which case they might have responsibility, including financial responsibility if something was destroyed or whatever. So

Speaker 1 this was very serious. I have the whole file.
Okay, it's a big file. Nobody's looking at it.

Speaker 1 I mean, the investigation in Washington now, they are saying we're going to look at the cases of the last 12 months. Well, what kind of science is that?

Speaker 1 Can you imagine scientists reading this? And this is the way they are going to solve the UFO problem by looking at vague pictures of lights in the sky for one year.

Speaker 1 You know, why don't they go back to those records? Those are federal records.

Speaker 1 The case in Valencia, five agencies of the French government,

Speaker 1 this guy was a farmer. He had a field where he was growing plants to make perfume.
So this was high-level, you know, expensive crop. This wasn't just alfalfa or something.
And

Speaker 1 he goes there at five o'clock in the morning because

Speaker 1 he wants to do some to water the thing and so on before the sun is up because it's going to be very, in the south of France, it's going to be very hot.

Speaker 1 You can't work in the field during the early afternoon. So he wants to be done with that.
He sees this contraption

Speaker 1 in the middle of the field crushing the

Speaker 1 plants. And so he sneaks in and he's paralyzed.

Speaker 1 Now

Speaker 1 there is an egg-shaped object just like the one

Speaker 1 at Trinity, just like the one in Sokoro. It's the size of

Speaker 1 a mid-sized truck. There are two creatures in front of it, a human, you know, human looking, two eyes, and

Speaker 1 breathing air. They look at him, sort of amused, and one of them has something on his belt, it takes out, points pointed at him, and that's when he's paralyzed.

Speaker 1 Now he's not and you know, as you know, I'm not a doctor, but I've gone to doctors about what kind of a paralysis is that where you can stand up and watch something, you just can't move.

Speaker 1 They said, well, th th there is a type of paralysis that will just inhibit the

Speaker 1 motor nerves,

Speaker 1 but you'll still be up and aware. You're not going to fall down

Speaker 1 in a heap. And from there, he sees them going back inside the thing.
The thing takes off. It takes off like a shot out of a gun and it vanishes in midair.

Speaker 1 Now,

Speaker 1 he goes to see the gendarmes.

Speaker 1 This man is fairly wealthy. He owns quite a bit of, you know, several fields, expensive crops.

Speaker 1 His wife is the mayor of the town.

Speaker 1 The gendarmes are going to be very careful with him because he's also from the resistance in World War II. When he was young, he joined the resistance, and the resistance in that part of France fought

Speaker 1 in the Alps against the Germans, and

Speaker 1 they were regarded as heroes of World War II.

Speaker 1 And so the gendarmes are very careful with him.

Speaker 1 There are some things he's not going to tell the gendarmes

Speaker 1 because he thinks,

Speaker 1 and I

Speaker 1 went there, he didn't want to talk to anybody from Paris, he didn't want to be on TV.

Speaker 1 He wanted to concentrate on his experience because he thought there was going to be something else.

Speaker 1 And he was aware of some of his bodies. Now, this is a part of France where people talk, but they have secrets too.
I mean, historically, you know,

Speaker 1 there are things like that in the U.S., you know, parts where people are not going to talk to strangers.

Speaker 1 The only reason I could go there was that

Speaker 1 I went there with

Speaker 1 a lady who was from Paris, was from with the government. She was with the Gauls government.
She had the rank of ambassador, and she had a vacation home there.

Speaker 1 So we went there for three days, and she knew everybody there.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 he told us

Speaker 1 what he

Speaker 1 thought might happen again.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 he, so he didn't want the gendarmes mixed in with what he was doing.

Speaker 2 Why did he think that something was going to happen again?

Speaker 1 They

Speaker 1 evidently, and you know, he swore us to secrecy about what it was, but evidently there was communication with the beings when he was there.

Speaker 2 And so these beings, just tiny, look-like people, did they have different features than us? Or was it just you?

Speaker 1 They are just like the ones at Trinity and like the ones at Socorro.

Speaker 1 So in that book, you have actually

Speaker 1 two, two and three, you have seven

Speaker 1 creatures that are humanoid, that breathe our air, that

Speaker 1 seem to understand us, you know, the visual,

Speaker 1 you know, there is visual contact.

Speaker 1 Well, we can have visual contact with animals. I mean, that doesn't mean they are human or meta-human.
But

Speaker 1 there is messages that come through all of that that the witnesses are reluctant to talk about in all three cases. So in Socorro, finally, the Air Force went there.

Speaker 1 They threw the Air Force out because the Air Force said, well, you know, that's just a gadget

Speaker 1 from the base. And

Speaker 1 that was stupid. So they finally sent Dr.
Hynek there. And

Speaker 1 Dr. Hynek asked me to organize the files that were coming.
I was at Northwestern at the time, you know,

Speaker 1 working.

Speaker 1 I had done my PhD already, and I was on the staff of the computing center. And we had a small team trying to help, you know, free,

Speaker 1 trying to help Hynek keep the files together. So we were

Speaker 1 you know, in communication with him the whole time. And then I put the files together, and I have a file.

Speaker 1 You know, this is the official file.

Speaker 2 So these people were reluctant to talk about what these creatures were communicating with them. But did they talk about it at all?

Speaker 1 It was very personal.

Speaker 2 Very personal.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 There had been a communication that

Speaker 1 transcended

Speaker 1 their life.

Speaker 1 There was

Speaker 1 something else, something outside. So you could almost call it a sort of a religious feeling, but

Speaker 1 it wasn't about

Speaker 1 divinity or God specifically, but it was about

Speaker 1 the other side of life,

Speaker 1 a bigger meaning for life.

Speaker 1 But that's their interpretation. It may not be...

Speaker 1 There may be other things that they are trying to communicate.

Speaker 2 But it was a very profound phase.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 And all three cases had similar stories in that regard.

Speaker 1 And in all three cases,

Speaker 1 there are traces that were measured.

Speaker 1 There is

Speaker 1 technology of sort. And in the case of Sokoro, people came up with all kinds of ideas that maybe it was a balloon, you know, I mean,

Speaker 1 a special balloon, right? There were only 12 of them in the world, and so on.

Speaker 1 Well, in the book, people haven't noticed it, but in the book, I was able to solve that problem because I found a transcript of a conversation with a man who was head of a motor pool

Speaker 1 on the

Speaker 1 army range

Speaker 1 at White white sands um

Speaker 1 uh and he had given his team some instructions on you know how to m make sure that the motor pool was working really well because uh white sands is so big when when people went home uh they could get lost you know in at white sands and then how are you going to find them i mean there are tracks but there is no paved road at the time uh how are you going to

Speaker 1 find them? So you can launch a helicopter the next day looking for a lost car somewhere with a family in it.

Speaker 1 So he made rules that they had to call periodically to report where they were when they went home

Speaker 1 50 miles away across the desert.

Speaker 1 So they could find them if there was something wrong with the car. He's driving home with his family.

Speaker 1 This is after the Socorro thing is done. You know, they are all interrogating the Lonnie Zamora, the cop who was driving that thing.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 he sees a light over the mountains in the southwest towards Mexico.

Speaker 1 But it's still, you know, it's still in New Mexico, but it's in that direction.

Speaker 1 A light that's not a star, it's really bright.

Speaker 1 And the the light gets brighter and brighter

Speaker 1 and his car dies. Now he's head of a motor pool

Speaker 1 for the base.

Speaker 1 Everybody reports to him and they have all the, you know, all the army cars and trucks and everything else, the half-tracks.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 he looks at that thing,

Speaker 1 he tries to call his team. The radio doesn't work

Speaker 1 radio should work radio doesn't work

Speaker 1 and the the thing gets very bright and then it recedes it goes it goes away the way it apparently came in we don't know if it came in or if it just got bright but okay

Speaker 1 the st the car starts

Speaker 1 He goes home and then the next day he goes to his shop.

Speaker 1 He gets his staff together. He says, you guys are are going to take this car apart.
I want to see every screw and every piece of it and every level and everything and the seats and so on.

Speaker 1 I want to see all of that on the floor. And you're going to test it and you're going to tell me what's changed or if anything, how that car stopped in the middle of the desert.

Speaker 1 And they couldn't find anything. And that report was an official report, okay, that was never published.

Speaker 1 And it nails the whole thing, you know, that this was not a balloon, this was not an hallucination,

Speaker 1 the patrolman wasn't drunk like they accused him of, or making up a story and so on.

Speaker 1 Lanny Zamora, when Dr. Hynek

Speaker 1 interrogated him, he said he wanted to talk to a priest and confess to a priest before he would talk to Dr. Hynek.

Speaker 1 That's the kind of man he was. And they essentially destroyed this guy because they thought it was, you know, bad reputation for the town of Sokoro.

Speaker 1 The tourists wouldn't come there because they'd be afraid of strange things flying. And the Air Force said, well, it's a one-witness case.
You know, there's this patrolman who saw this.

Speaker 1 There were 12 witnesses.

Speaker 1 There was a guy who was driving on the main road, the same road where the patrolman had been driving, who the thing passed right over his car.

Speaker 1 He thought he was going to be driven off the road by this big oval thing that just went right over the roof of the car into the desert.

Speaker 1 Well, he

Speaker 1 called the police and reported it. There's a written report.
He signed that report. We know his name.

Speaker 2 Without him having any knowledge of what happened.

Speaker 1 That's right.

Speaker 1 I mean, he saw this

Speaker 1 some

Speaker 1 of your gases tried to drive me off the road.

Speaker 1 There were several people on the road on the other side of this little

Speaker 1 desert thing that

Speaker 1 when it rains, the water rains all over the place,

Speaker 1 washes everything out, just sand and rocks. But on the other side, there is a main road.
Several people people on the road saw the thing take off and reported it because it was just so strange.

Speaker 1 So the Air Force put that aside. They neglected to, you know, this was, and they just kept saying it was a one-witness case.
It wasn't.

Speaker 1 Most of those cases where they say it was one witness and

Speaker 1 you have to look for the other guys.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 again,

Speaker 1 you know, I brought you something. Can I tell you about it? What did you bring? So this is something that the case was so interesting that Dr.

Speaker 1 Nolan and I and a couple of friends wrote it up and published it in the prime

Speaker 1 astronautics review in the world.

Speaker 1 So after

Speaker 1 it took a couple of years for them to agree to look at it and so on to look at the analysis.

Speaker 1 This happened in a suburb of Omaha, Nebraska, but on the Iowa side. There is this town,

Speaker 1 a suburb with a park. This is

Speaker 1 about a week before Christmas in 1977.

Speaker 1 People are there having a good time in the park in the evening.

Speaker 1 It's getting dark.

Speaker 1 I want to make sure I'm, yeah.

Speaker 1 They see something in the sky that looks like one of those boxes where, you know, it looks like a

Speaker 1 round box with lights around it, and the lights are

Speaker 1 going around,

Speaker 1 sort of, and it's pretty high, and it's flying over the

Speaker 1 town.

Speaker 1 And then

Speaker 1 a mass of

Speaker 1 steel,

Speaker 1 liquid steel, falls in the park. It falls on the levee

Speaker 1 in the park. There is about a half a ton of it.
Liquid, glowing.

Speaker 1 It has nothing, no business being there.

Speaker 1 So you have this mass of metal.

Speaker 1 Obviously, they call them.

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Speaker 1 Yes,

Speaker 1 the weather is freezing. We know the temperature and everything else.
It's freezing.

Speaker 1 The grass is on fire around it. They call the firemen, the firemen call the police, the police gets there, and the firemen get there,

Speaker 1 they stop the fire, the fire

Speaker 1 would have died by itself, there's no problem there. They take pictures of the thing glowing.
I have the pictures, infrared,

Speaker 1 polaroid pictures

Speaker 1 of the...

Speaker 1 the thing glowing in the grass, burning.

Speaker 1 I mean, mean liquid.

Speaker 1 And it's going to stay liquid for a couple of hours and it cools down gradually. And then people take pieces of it as souvenirs.
So I have the pieces of it and there they are. Now

Speaker 1 there was analysis done by two labs.

Speaker 1 Obviously the question is

Speaker 1 where did that come from? I mean you know

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 there is chromium, titanium, and iron, which you can find in ordinary steel, but this isn't really

Speaker 1 the composition isn't exactly what you'd expect industrial steel to be. So one of the chemical analyses is done at the lab

Speaker 1 for a

Speaker 1 for industrial steel.

Speaker 1 The

Speaker 1 investigators call the company. The company says, yes, we make

Speaker 1 steel.

Speaker 1 So we have furnaces, but we empty

Speaker 1 the furnaces.

Speaker 1 This is over a weekend. The factory is closed.
There would be nobody there,

Speaker 1 and certainly

Speaker 1 no liquid steel in our factory.

Speaker 1 And then half a ton of it.

Speaker 1 They have, yeah.

Speaker 2 This is a half a ton that they found sitting there.

Speaker 1 So then

Speaker 1 they call the Strategic Air Command because B-52s fly over that town. B-52 is a big thing.
And the people saw something in the sky.

Speaker 1 So, you know, maybe it was the Air Force, you know, politely laughs at them and says, you know, we carry atom bombs, but we don't carry furnaces with molten steel.

Speaker 1 Okay, so go look something somewhere else. And they say, good luck.
By the way, this is a way you could test it. This is a way.
I mean, the Air Force, we think,

Speaker 1 people think, number one, there is nothing in the blue book files worth looking at. That's not true.
I spent four years, you know, Dr. Hyneck had copies of all the files.

Speaker 1 The files were not classified. There were a few random cases that were classified for other reasons, not because of the UFO, because of where it was or so whatever,

Speaker 1 that I didn't have access to. I was just a graduate student,

Speaker 1 PhD.

Speaker 1 I went through, we convinced, Dr. Hynek and I convinced the Air Force to do a computer file of everything they had about UFOs, because before then it was just paper files all over the place.

Speaker 1 And if they were challenged by Carl Sagan or somebody like that at the time, they wouldn't be able to provide good statistics.

Speaker 1 So they agreed for me to get the files and redo, punch them into punch cards, take it to a computer, redo the statistics, looking at their explanation and then my explanation

Speaker 1 for the cases. I did

Speaker 1 the whole thing. thousands and thousands of cases.
They were right that majority were explainable.

Speaker 1 What we were looking for were the ones that were not explainable. This one cannot be explained.

Speaker 1 And there are enough of those, there are hundreds of those, that scientists could have looked at.

Speaker 1 I went through

Speaker 1 the Air Force base with my French passport. At the time I wasn't a citizen.

Speaker 1 You had to wait five years before you could apply for American citizenship.

Speaker 1 So I was working, I had a a small contract that was completely, you know, unclassified to recalibrate the statistics of the blue book files. So I had access to essentially all the blue book files.

Speaker 1 But I went into the base with a clearance for three days with Dr. Hynek to go to the

Speaker 1 division that was looking at the UFOs and spent those three days with uh uh Major Quentanilla and his staff going through the files.

Speaker 1 And they they had lots of uh remains of things and stones and strange metals and so on, which at the end of the project all that was thrown away. So this is all every everything is going on now.

Speaker 1 Uh this is for you, by the way.

Speaker 1 For your your special collection of

Speaker 1 weird things.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 This is

Speaker 1 essentially it's uh steel. There we go.

Speaker 2 So that's the area where

Speaker 1 the steel is blowing.

Speaker 2 And so this steel you can make on Earth.

Speaker 2 It's a composite of a bunch of different materials.

Speaker 1 It's not exactly the steel that you would use in construction,

Speaker 1 but it is essentially steel. And so

Speaker 1 I gave my samples to,

Speaker 1 you know, to Stanford so that we could redo the analysis and not the chemical analysis, but the isotope analysis. So Dr.
Nolan and I took it to the lab. Dr.

Speaker 1 Nolan had two series of instruments that could do the analysis. We did both.
and we confirmed essentially this. So there was no

Speaker 1 special

Speaker 1 change in the isotope ratios. If there was,

Speaker 1 that would indicate that somebody had manipulated the isotopes, which is not a hoax. Then

Speaker 1 you know for sure it's not a hoax because

Speaker 1 that's high-caliber scientific laboratory work and you need special

Speaker 1 instrument experts to interpret it.

Speaker 2 Right, but that wasn't the case.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 2 the isotopes hadn't been manipulated. Have they found, because I've heard this about Gary Nolan in particular, that they do have samples of things that they can explain.

Speaker 1 So I gave him essentially all my samples, all the ones that I could relate to reliable cases. Because I don't want to give him junk.

Speaker 1 There's a lot of junk floating around that people think is strange.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 yes,

Speaker 1 we're

Speaker 1 going through all those, you know,

Speaker 1 and the idea is to publish it as we go, you know, to publish everything as we go. There are some that give the indication of being, but, you know, as always in science, we have to be careful.

Speaker 1 Our colleagues will say, Very good,

Speaker 1 you know, congratulations, you did that

Speaker 1 with one instrument. Now you should redo it with a different lab, with a different machine, and see what they find.
Because

Speaker 1 Dr. Nolan has some of those machines are machines that he's invented at Stanford, okay?

Speaker 1 But they are tied to biology. I mean, this is not a biology.
This is steel, okay? And this is iron or copper or whatever. So

Speaker 1 we have to redo it with a different now. So, in this case, we have redone it with a different line of machines.

Speaker 1 There is a French machine that costs something like six million dollars, that would fill, you know, half of this room, that's extremely good for testing for isotopes, but only on four different elements.

Speaker 1 With the other machine, the biological machine, we get

Speaker 1 the whole spectrum. So, except for

Speaker 1 some of the extreme elements, like radioactive elements and so on.

Speaker 2 So, what samples have they found that have been the most compelling?

Speaker 1 We're still working on that, you know. But this paper is important, even though we didn't find something out of range.

Speaker 1 But that's in a way that's validation of what you have to do

Speaker 1 when somebody presents you with that kind of sample. Those are the steps.
This is where the science is today. This is what the technology can tell you.

Speaker 1 So this is sort of a stake in the ground, even though we didn't find ET, okay?

Speaker 1 But we didn't find ET science.

Speaker 2 We found physical evidence.

Speaker 1 But we've got the technology now, we know how to do it.

Speaker 1 One problem we had was that neither one of us is

Speaker 1 an expert in materials. We're not experts in steel.
So the people who,

Speaker 1 this was reviewed by

Speaker 1 people who were materials experts,

Speaker 1 and they came back with a whole page of questions.

Speaker 1 Why didn't you look at this? Why didn't you measure that?

Speaker 1 So Dr. Nolan and the team had to redo about a year of work before they would accept the paper.
So that's what you have to go through before scientists will look at it.

Speaker 1 But this one, you know, is in the literature, in the scientific literature. It's not in some UFO magazine in New Mexico.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 we can, now we have the methodology, we can apply it to the others. There are some that we've done with one machine

Speaker 1 where there are indications. Now at Stanford,

Speaker 1 Stanford it's funny because you've had three generations of

Speaker 1 people

Speaker 1 at Stanford looking at this.

Speaker 1 Before

Speaker 1 Dr. Nolan, I was there and I was gathering data and I was using the computer to do statistics and so on.

Speaker 1 And I worked for Professor Sturok who unfortunately died a few months ago at over 100, but he was still working in astrophysics. And

Speaker 1 I was on his astrophysics staff for a couple of years, looking at

Speaker 1 galaxies, looking at the structure of the Sun, and

Speaker 1 looking at

Speaker 1 certain types of strange stars that had special emissions and so on. So I was his computer guy, and we

Speaker 1 also looked at

Speaker 1 UFO

Speaker 1 materials,

Speaker 1 especially a case from Brazil, which he published. And he got

Speaker 1 financial support to do the isotope analysis. And some of it was arguably different.
So we want to redo it.

Speaker 1 He donated all his materials to me, you know, when he retired. So I have all that, and I passed it to Dr.
Nolan. So Stanford now has

Speaker 1 is acquiring a reputation as being a UFO analysis place.

Speaker 2 Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 But it went from essentially solar physics and

Speaker 1 very high-energy physics, you know, that I was working on with Dr. Sturok to me with a computing center and now with Dr.
Nolan in the medical school. So we've had, you know, they are

Speaker 2 willing to do that.

Speaker 2 I had heard that there was some alloy that was very difficult to comprehend that someone would be able to construct, that it would cost billions of dollars to make this particular type of alloy.

Speaker 2 That they had discovered something along those lines.

Speaker 1 Well, there are

Speaker 1 I've seen those books, I've heard those things on the Internet.

Speaker 1 The question is, you know, scientists will want to look at this. They'll want to know, well,

Speaker 1 how did you do it? How did you prepare the sample?

Speaker 1 We were given access to a sample that

Speaker 1 in fact is very strange. And it has different colors on it.

Speaker 1 fits in the palm of your hand, you know, so it's a significant size.

Speaker 1 Remember, Dr. Nolan is looking at individual human cells, you know, with this device, okay?

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 anything more than 10 grams, you know, we don't need. I mean,

Speaker 1 we can work with very little material, although, of course, we want to do different things with different parts of it.

Speaker 1 But this thing had some very interesting encrustation of

Speaker 1 a red deposit.

Speaker 1 And all the people who had looked at it, including some official labs and some, signed a disclaimer saying they would not scrape off

Speaker 1 the

Speaker 1 interesting deposits that were on it. Well, all of them did.

Speaker 1 I mean, after signing the thing, by the time

Speaker 1 it came to me, most of the

Speaker 1 interesting red stuff had been scraped off. So I don't know what they did.

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Speaker 1 And I don't know what machine they used, and they didn't publish a paper. It took us four years to publish this paper.

Speaker 1 And the paper came from Stanford with

Speaker 1 four PhDs writing it. So

Speaker 1 that's, you know, the bar is pretty high if you're going to actually publish this in an international review.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and with an interesting title.

Speaker 1 We'll do others. You know, that's a plan.

Speaker 2 If people want to find this, it says improve instrumental techniques, including isotope analysis

Speaker 2 applicable to the characterization of unusual materials with potential relevance to aerospace forensics.

Speaker 1 Yeah, he doesn't talk about UFOs.

Speaker 2 That's a very tricky way.

Speaker 2 Relevance to aerospace forensics.

Speaker 1 People read between the lines. Yeah, that's

Speaker 1 what do you mean?

Speaker 2 Aerospace. Who's aerospace stuff?

Speaker 2 So this is the question.

Speaker 2 If these encounters happened, if this egg-shaped craft was real, and if these small people-like things that breathe air did communicate with people,

Speaker 2 where are they from?

Speaker 2 Is this something that has always been here? Is this something that visits here? Is it something that is here?

Speaker 1 So in the BAS

Speaker 1 project of Mr. Begelow that was funded by the Defense Intelligence Agency,

Speaker 1 we had a template of

Speaker 1 things that

Speaker 1 the Pentagon wanted to have. And it said, you know, trajectory, composition, luminosity, radiation, and so on.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 yeah, those are the things that you'd need if you were looking at a Russian aircraft, you know, or you were looking at the Nimitz thing, whatever it was.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 you know, is that really relevant? I mean, in science, you don't start from the conclusions.

Speaker 1 You're going to

Speaker 1 look at this and this is not something you've seen before, and you go on from that. You know, in the Nimitz case, we've all seen those photographs, and they are,

Speaker 1 I've stopped counting how many papers there are from the New York Times on down with the picture of the, you know, the photograph of the,

Speaker 1 that the F-18 was taking, the pilot took from the thing.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 nobody mentions that this isn't a photograph.

Speaker 1 People think it's a photograph. So in the file, there is a memo from the folks at Raytheon.

Speaker 1 Raytheon makes the device, which is a big, you know, a big thing that you hang under the wing of an F-18 that's going to take these images. It's an image.
It's not a photograph.

Speaker 1 It's looking into the infrared.

Speaker 1 It's not looking at the details, you know, if there is a number painted on the thing, it's not going to see it. it's looking at the heat.

Speaker 1 So when this was published by the New York Times, there was a very interesting memo with a little touch of humor

Speaker 1 from Raytheon to the Navy

Speaker 1 saying, you know those things you've published and you know

Speaker 1 it was taken with one of the devices what we sold you

Speaker 1 to put under the wing of your aircraft.

Speaker 1 It's not a a camera, it's not a photographic camera. You gave us specifications for what you wanted us to build, and that's what we gave you.

Speaker 1 You wanted something that could measure the temperature of the exhaust of an enemy aircraft that you're going to shoot down.

Speaker 1 You know, the F-18 goes behind that Russian thing or MiG or whatever, and it the camera is painting the exhaust from the Russian guy,

Speaker 1 so that you can distinguish between

Speaker 1 American Airlines 723

Speaker 1 and a MiG.

Speaker 1 That's going to help you discriminate what kind of enemy you've got.

Speaker 1 Is it friend or foe? First, if it's friend, you peel off, and that's fine.

Speaker 1 If it's an enemy, you're going to engage the guy.

Speaker 1 That's what we gave you.

Speaker 1 You didn't tell tell us you wanted a device to track flying saucers because we don't know what flying saucers are.

Speaker 1 If you do, you know, we'll build one.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 that memo is just so funny. You know, it's an official,

Speaker 1 you know, I make it a little bit funnier than it was, but

Speaker 1 it's an official memo and it's very straightforward.

Speaker 2 Jamie, see if you could find a good photograph,

Speaker 2 excuse me, an image of the infrared image that was taken by those F-18s.

Speaker 1 You have an image of a heat source.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 Of that tic-tac. And then they also got the video representation, the video of the thing taking off

Speaker 2 at some extreme rate of speed.

Speaker 2 That's it right there. So that's the image, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 the radar said

Speaker 1 the radar said that it took off and popped up somewhere else. And so we we accept that

Speaker 1 at face value because it's in the New York Times and

Speaker 1 that may be true.

Speaker 1 In my work in venture capital, you know, I've looked at all kinds of technology that's around. And so I go to technology meetings.
Those are open. They are not secret or anything.

Speaker 1 And people talk about their gadget or their device. They are looking for money, you know, to

Speaker 1 make

Speaker 1 in larger quantity. So

Speaker 1 I found myself in a conversation with a guy from one of the aircraft companies in

Speaker 1 Southern California.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I asked him,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 1 there is a device

Speaker 1 that has a funny name

Speaker 1 like DISPRO or something like that. And

Speaker 1 it measures

Speaker 1 the,

Speaker 1 it acquires radar signals.

Speaker 1 I think it's a

Speaker 1 DSPR, you know,

Speaker 1 radar.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 that gadget, I had never heard of it, and it's actually not classified. Now, it was developed initially so that

Speaker 1 you could

Speaker 1 analyze radar data

Speaker 1 that was coming to you. If somebody was painting your aircraft on a radar, you could detect the characteristics of the radar pulse.

Speaker 1 Why would you want to do that? Well,

Speaker 1 you want to do that because, and it,

Speaker 1 I said, well, what does it look like? You know, is it classified? He said, no, it's not classified. You know, many

Speaker 1 airplanes, civilian airplanes can carry it. You put it in the nose of your

Speaker 1 pipe cub or whatever, and you fly around Los Angeles, and it will acquire the characteristics of all the radars in the Los Angeles area digitally.

Speaker 1 It's a digital thing, it's a computer, essentially, that acquires radar data. And then it feeds back

Speaker 1 radar characteristics

Speaker 1 of any

Speaker 1 aircraft you want somewhere else.

Speaker 1 So if you want your papa cup to look like a B-52 20 miles away,

Speaker 1 you turn on, I know I'm making it

Speaker 1 simple, but

Speaker 1 you program

Speaker 1 the thing and you can redirect the defense, the air defense, for example, to another place.

Speaker 2 So you can send a signal to another place that makes it look like there's a B-52 there.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 1 Or make it look like you've disappeared in mid-air and reappeared somewhere else.

Speaker 1 Digitally, it's a digital radar feedback device that once you know the characteristics of the radars that are painting you,

Speaker 1 you can, I mean, obviously, suppose you want to travel to Moscow over the Iron Curtain without being shot down by the Soviet Air Force.

Speaker 1 You'd want to redirect all the radars or, I mean, you're on 20 radars. Right.

Speaker 2 One of the things that they said about the Tac was that when they encountered it, it was somehow another blocking their detection signals.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 you know, I don't know that this DERPROM

Speaker 1 I I don't know how far it's gotten in the last thirty years.

Speaker 1 The guy I was talking to was telling me about technology of thirty years ago. Wow.
And I blew my mind. I nev didn't know you could you could do that.
Right.

Speaker 2 I didn't know until just now.

Speaker 1 You could just paint.

Speaker 1 So that's,

Speaker 1 I'm not sure where the technology is and who is cleared for that. You know, pilots are cleared for certain things, obviously for all their equipment on board.
They are not necessarily cleared for...

Speaker 1 So you have to ask, in the case of the Nimitz,

Speaker 1 what clearances did these pilots we see on TV, what clearances did they have?

Speaker 1 Did they have the electronic countermeasure clearance? They don't necessarily have it. I mean some of them didn't have the camera.
Some of those who are on TV today talking about these images,

Speaker 1 the image didn't come from them. It came from one of their bodies

Speaker 1 who came afterwards.

Speaker 2 There's also the question of

Speaker 1 where the data is missing.

Speaker 2 I've always questioned where they take place, because they take place in the same areas where the United States always runs military training exercises.

Speaker 2 They take place off of San Diego, off of the East Coast, all these areas where we know that they run exercises all the time, restricted airspace.

Speaker 2 If you were going to test some of the things that we

Speaker 2 have...

Speaker 1 I think this was in international waters.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it was. But it was still off the coast of San Diego where they do these things, which is why the fighter pilots were there to fight.

Speaker 1 It's restricted. I mean, the Russians could fly there.

Speaker 2 Right, not that area, but isn't the area off the east coast where some of those things restricted?

Speaker 1 I don't know. Okay.
The one around Long Island isn't that. China's electronic wadada.
Long island is restricted.

Speaker 2 It says China's electronic war gadget turned small drones into flying stadium on radar.

Speaker 1 So this is an article from

Speaker 2 January of this year, and then I'll show you something else I found from Long Island. Wow, so they can make it look like a flying saucer.

Speaker 2 The size of an iPad can make it look like as big as a sports stadium. Whoa, look at this.

Speaker 2 The effect, similar to a giant flying saucer suddenly materializing in mid-air, would be reminiscent of a scene from a science fiction film, but is achievable, according to a peer-reviewed paper published on January 8th.

Speaker 1 Whoa.

Speaker 2 Then the month before that, here's their new stealth fighter that's painted with the stuff he just said that

Speaker 2 scatters the frequencies or something.

Speaker 1 You know, this isn't my field.

Speaker 2 Yeah, this is just something I stumbled across typing in the words he just said.

Speaker 2 Yeah, just pretty cool.

Speaker 2 So they go. But they're testing this, too.
What I was getting at was

Speaker 2 if you're the United States government, if you're the military and you have this kind of equipment and you want to test it, what better way than to test it on people that don't know you're testing it on them, send your fighter jets out there, have them encounter these things,

Speaker 2 run your whatever experiment you're doing with making something appear and reappear and take off and come

Speaker 2 and give them these signals, give them these disruptive, deceptive signals and see whether or not they... The problem is they had visual confirmation of these things.
That's the real problem.

Speaker 2 The problem is they actually saw these things. Like the tic-tac was they visually saw it for people, right?

Speaker 1 I have a colleague in Silicon Valley who's been at the distinguished Army career.

Speaker 1 And he told me that

Speaker 1 there were, in fact,

Speaker 1 tests of especially nuclear facilities,

Speaker 1 not necessarily the military, but mostly the military facilities,

Speaker 1 to test the ability to penetrate the perimeter. So

Speaker 1 those flights

Speaker 1 are not cleared with the people

Speaker 1 who manage the plant. So it's either a nuclear plant that makes

Speaker 1 fuel for bombs or it's a base where nuclear weapons are stored and there are guys around the perimeter with machine guns and they are going to

Speaker 1 sound an alert if they see something coming over the fence. Well, suppose you come over the fence looking like a flying saucer.
Are they going to start shooting or not?

Speaker 1 So they

Speaker 1 you know, he told me that he had actually flown some of those missions.

Speaker 1 And I know another member of the BAS team who confirmed that, told me he had been on some of those missions.

Speaker 1 They make

Speaker 1 their plane look like a, you know, they put lights around it and so that so that it can look like a flying saucer essentially, or look like what a UFO, what would be a UFO to the guard. Right.

Speaker 1 So that the guard is, they want to see if they can penetrate, if you can disguise yourself to the extent that psychologically you can inhibit the reaction of the guards and you can fly over the fence.

Speaker 1 Wow. Because if you can fly over the fence, you're in.
Right. You know, you can do a lot of damage.
Wow.

Speaker 2 So pretend you're a UFO.

Speaker 1 So those th those are but I don't think they do they do hundreds of those. I think they probably do it, you know, very carefully at a couple of places.

Speaker 2 But it's interesting that they have that ability.

Speaker 2 That's fascinating. That throws a lot of this stuff into question.
Like, what are we actually seeing? Yes. But it doesn't explain all these things.

Speaker 2 And that's the pro the problem that I always have is that the just the abundance of encounters and how similar a lot of them are and then what it must feel like I've never had an experience, but what it must feel like to have that experience, that you probably would be very, I wouldn't be reluctant because I'm a known person to talk about silly things.

Speaker 2 But if you're not, if you're like a serious person, you have some sort of an encounter, I would imagine there's a lot of pressure on you to not tell people.

Speaker 2 If you're a lawyer or a doctor or you're any sort of like respectable person that's a a serious individual in whatever you're doing for a career, you don't want people to associate you with nonsense or think that, oh, maybe Mike is losing his mind.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you can't because you have people relying on your ability to.

Speaker 2 So maybe you tell your friends, maybe you tell your mother, maybe you tell your wife, but you probably don't tell the press.

Speaker 2 If you're a scientist, I would imagine you would have to have like significant evidence where you stick your neck out. Or you're a person like yourself that's been very brave for all these years.

Speaker 2 Because you were talking about this stuff in the 1960s, which is pretty crazy.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 you know, I had seen

Speaker 1 essentially a flying saucer when I was 15.

Speaker 1 Can you describe it? I was in,

Speaker 1 I grew up in

Speaker 1 a town that's

Speaker 1 about

Speaker 1 45 minutes out of Paris, on the road to Normandy. And my father was a judge in that town for a while.
And

Speaker 1 beautiful afternoon

Speaker 1 in the summer, I don't know the exact date, it would have been late June or July,

Speaker 1 55, 1955.

Speaker 1 So I was about 15, 16.

Speaker 1 I was still in school and then the following year I was going to go to the university. And

Speaker 1 my mother

Speaker 1 called me. I was working with my father who was relaxing, doing some furniture

Speaker 1 and I was helping him and I heard my mother call from the yard and I went down and saw an object that was absolutely a saucer. It looked like it was over the steeple of the

Speaker 1 cathedral there.

Speaker 1 and we were about half a kilometer away from it. And it was just suspended, it was silver, and there was a clear dome on top of it.

Speaker 1 And we both saw that.

Speaker 1 It was

Speaker 1 very clear.

Speaker 1 And then the next day I asked a friend of mine from school, who was

Speaker 1 you know, we were the

Speaker 1 two good students in physics and so on.

Speaker 1 And I told him I had seen that. And he said said he had looked at it with binoculars.
He had seen it too.

Speaker 1 And he had looked at it with binoculars, and I got him to draw it, and he drew exactly what I had seen. Essentially, a lens-shaped thing with a dome on, a clear dome on top.

Speaker 2 How long did you see it for?

Speaker 1 I saw it for less than a minute. I think I went inside.
I don't remember what I did.

Speaker 1 Logically, I probably went inside to get my father so that he could see it.

Speaker 2 And then when he came out, it was gone?

Speaker 1 Well, he didn't even come out. He said it was probably one of the new

Speaker 1 planes that were flying around because this was a time when

Speaker 1 the meteors and the early jets were being

Speaker 1 tried, and they were training pilots with them and so on, both for civil aviation and for the Air Force in France. So

Speaker 1 he said, well, let's wait, you know, maybe this will be disclosed at some point. So I didn't say anything about it.
Also, you know, the son of a judge,

Speaker 1 family of a judge is supposed to see strange things in the air over the town.

Speaker 1 Right. So it was sensitive.

Speaker 1 What year was this?

Speaker 2 When you were 15?

Speaker 1 How old are you now?

Speaker 1 It it was 1955. 1955.
So back then. I was 15, 16.

Speaker 2 Okay, so we could also apply that. Like

Speaker 2 w if it was a jet, it would probably be very loud.

Speaker 1 Well, and also it wouldn't just stand there, right?

Speaker 2 It wouldn't be able to just sit there. And was this thing quiet?

Speaker 1 After that,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 1 I understood that it was. After that, I worked at Paris Observatory after I had my degree in astronomy, tracking satellites.
We tracked the very early satellites.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 we were a government

Speaker 1 office, so people were writing to us with what they had seen. And most of it we could explain.

Speaker 1 For one thing, they were seeing ECHO and they were seeing some of the Russian rockets, you know.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 so we would write back to, I mean, we had to write back, you know, to French citizen.

Speaker 1 I had a card with a French flag on it, and

Speaker 1 we were serving

Speaker 1 the population. So we would explain those things pretty much the way they do now.

Speaker 1 You've seen the moon rising through the fog, or you've seen the satellite, you know, so much alpha 23.

Speaker 1 But then there were cases where, just like that, where

Speaker 1 they saw something we could not explain. But then we we would tell them, but we wouldn't publish it.
We wouldn't send it anywhere.

Speaker 1 For one thing, it wasn't our job. Our job was tracking satellites.

Speaker 2 Right, but that one experience that you had when you were 15 is what ignited your interest in this for so many years.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Well, if you hadn't been doing, I mean, the thing that's very important about people like yourself is that you're so careful in how you document these things and in the conclusions that you draw.

Speaker 2 Because I think this field of UFO study is filled with so many people that claim to have answers, claim to know things, and this is going to happen and this is coming and this is, this is disclosures imminent and this, and that's not, it never comes true.

Speaker 2 It's always

Speaker 2 you're just left waiting for some new evidence that supposedly they have. And this is the more frustrating aspects of it.

Speaker 2 Like when talking to Christopher Mellon, he's telling me there's high-resolution photographs and video.

Speaker 2 How about showing me?

Speaker 1 Show me some stuff.

Speaker 2 Show me something.

Speaker 2 Because as a person that had, I wasn't when I was 15, I didn't see anything. So I don't have that experience that you have.

Speaker 2 I just have this fascination with it, but also tempered by a little bit of cynicism because there's so much malarkey that's attached to this subject.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 and some of it is, you know,

Speaker 1 some of it is legitimate.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And I think ufologists in general, you know, they want disclosure, disclosure, disclosure, but we don't know.

Speaker 1 You know, I'm very respectful of, you know, when I had

Speaker 1 clearances,

Speaker 1 I was just very respectful of those clearances because there are people who know what's on the other side of that.

Speaker 1 There was one case

Speaker 1 in the Air Force files that was classified. I mean, it was marked in the index with a star.
And I'm punching the card and I put an asterisk there.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I had to ask Dr. Hynek, you know, what happened.
Can you tell me what happened there?

Speaker 1 And he said, yeah, I can.

Speaker 1 There was enough time

Speaker 1 that I can tell you.

Speaker 1 This was this came from a woman in Alaska called the Air Force because she saw what she thought was a flying source, certainly something that should not have been there.

Speaker 1 It was dark on the ground, but the sky was still light, and there was definitely

Speaker 1 a light that looked like it was under power, that was flying

Speaker 1 west.

Speaker 1 Now, west of of Alaska, you know, there's a Khoral

Speaker 1 Peninsula and there's a Soviet Union.

Speaker 1 So she thought it was a UFO.

Speaker 1 So it was reported as a UFO, but

Speaker 1 it was classified and it was called unidentified.

Speaker 1 Well, you know, that was an inside joke. It was a U-2.

Speaker 1 But this was at sunset and the U2 was illuminated by the sun.

Speaker 1 I mean, U2 is painted such a way that it shouldn't be visible from, but there are some

Speaker 1 conditions where you're going to see it.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 so

Speaker 1 it was classified, and

Speaker 1 if you had the clearance, you would read that it was unidentified.

Speaker 1 It would be listed in the statistics as unidentified. But a new

Speaker 1 exactly what it was from the beginning. Interesting.

Speaker 2 So some things are listed as unidentified because it's so classified. True.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that makes sense. And I have no problem with that.
Right. But, you know, tell me, if you ask me to write a computer program about it, you know,

Speaker 1 tell me if

Speaker 1 it's worth my time or not.

Speaker 2 What was your take on the Ryan Graves stuff? Like Ryan Graves and the fighter pilots that started seeing these

Speaker 2 squares within a sphere?

Speaker 1 To me, that's still a question. And the people I talk to

Speaker 1 are still wondering, you know,

Speaker 1 what is that?

Speaker 1 There are

Speaker 1 strange physical systems that are floating around

Speaker 1 to gather

Speaker 1 faint signals and they have very strange shapes. Okay.

Speaker 1 So it it it could be th those are balloons within balloons with little things attached to them. Going back to the days of

Speaker 1 1947 looking for uh uh atomic explosions, Russian you know, uh that's the way the r Russian tests, atomic tests were

Speaker 1 d d detected first was with

Speaker 1 balloons that had large antennas, you know, that were.

Speaker 2 The thing about the Ryan Graves stuff, though, is the physical characteristics, like, and the way it moves, that these things were able to stay stationary in 100-plus-knot winds.

Speaker 1 I don't

Speaker 1 know.

Speaker 2 I don't know.

Speaker 1 I have not researched it, and I wouldn't be the guy to research it.

Speaker 2 If we are being visited,

Speaker 2 how many different civilizations do you think are visiting us?

Speaker 2 Because if there's all these different characteristics that these beings have, if some of them look like tall, albino, almost like human beings with large eyes, some of them look like the greys, some of them look like dwarfs.

Speaker 1 Yes, and that's an embarrassment of riches in a way. Right.

Speaker 1 Of course, that opens a question, you know, is it a simulation? And Reiswern Verk has published a couple of books about that. He's a friend of ours

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 Dr. Nolan, and we've had many conversations about that.

Speaker 1 You know, we could be living in a simulation of science

Speaker 1 where the people running the simulation might send whatever they want. I mean, it would be like a video game.

Speaker 1 So all of a sudden, you've got a new.

Speaker 1 But that's not completely,

Speaker 1 you can only go so far. In fact, the first reaction is: well,

Speaker 1 you know, but look at the detail.

Speaker 1 We can't reproduce a detail on that scale. That's true, but you know, wait 10 years and we'll be able to do it.
I mean, with quantum computing and all that.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 that's not a good argument.

Speaker 1 It's an okay argument now, but it doesn't stand the test.

Speaker 1 The other argument is

Speaker 1 who would be doing it and why. I mean, that's true that there are some strange things.
I mean, the fact that the moon is exactly the size to hide the Sun, it's exactly

Speaker 1 30 minutes of arc, like the Sun. So it gives us total eclipses and it gives us a measuring tool.

Speaker 1 The Greeks knew roughly how far the Sun was with respect to the Moon. They knew the ratio of the distances.
They didn't get the exact distance.

Speaker 1 But they already knew that because they had done the math, you know, the geometry.

Speaker 1 So that's pretty strange.

Speaker 1 And it also protects our environment, but there are lots of things on Earth that, you know, seem to be accidental that are just right for us to exist.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 So,

Speaker 1 well,

Speaker 1 but

Speaker 1 I'm not completely

Speaker 1 happy with that explanation. Nor am I.

Speaker 2 I'm not happy with it, but it's very compelling.

Speaker 2 What's fascinating to me is that it is inevitable, that if technology advances the way it is currently within maybe even our lifetime or within another lifetime another hundred years we will most certainly have an artificial reality that's you cannot discern indiscernible between that and the reality we currently experience yes so if that's inevitable you would kind of assume that perhaps it's already taken place.

Speaker 2 And if it had already taken place, it would probably be very similar to what we're experiencing.

Speaker 2 Whereas enough of it seems fake, and enough of it seems scripted, enough of it seems very coincidental how things line up that it almost does seem like a simulation sometimes.

Speaker 1 Well, but there are also things that are strange, but that we could research, that we're doing a very bad job of researching.

Speaker 1 There was, I got a phone call a couple of years ago from a a woman who had been a student at a school, a high level preparatory, you know, school on on the East Coast.

Speaker 1 And I had published a book in this in the eighties, early eighties, about UFOs and she was head of a lecture bureau for the kids.

Speaker 1 And she thought it would be fun to bring me there to talk about flying sources, because it would excite the students and so on.

Speaker 1 So I went there and I gave

Speaker 1 you

Speaker 1 a lecture at the level of, you know, the but those are those were very bright students, you know, it was sort of an elite girls' school.

Speaker 1 And then, you know, she drove me back to the airport and I went home. Never heard from her again.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 what, 35 years pass, and she calls me.

Speaker 1 And she says, uh, you may not remember me, but you know, I was the one who brought you to give a lecture at the the school. Um

Speaker 1 do you ever come to Washington? And I said, I do remember you

Speaker 1 and uh I go to Washington couple of times a year. And she says, well

Speaker 1 I'd like to tell you about an experience I had.

Speaker 1 And next time you come to Washington, ring me up. And when you're done with your meetings, you know, I'll pick you up and I'll drive you to Dallas airport.
And so

Speaker 1 I do that. I call her.
She picks me up in a

Speaker 1 very nice Mercedes. And

Speaker 1 she says, I've never forgotten your lecture.

Speaker 1 I saw something

Speaker 1 here on the way to the airport where we're passing now that I'd like to describe to you, because it reminded me of your lecture, and I had never heard that anywhere else.

Speaker 1 You know, there are trees along the freeway on both sides, beautiful.

Speaker 1 The freeway was dark, and the sky was still blue.

Speaker 1 She said, I saw an elongated object, which was like, to me, twice 747,

Speaker 1 with with what people would probably think of as

Speaker 1 portholes or windows they were just lights along the the the thing the thing was elongated and it was moving slowly minding its own business you know it must be on ten radars including the airport and

Speaker 1 it was moving over and then the sky was perfectly clear, no clouds, no fog.

Speaker 1 It blended with the sky.

Speaker 1 I could just see the outline still. It didn't speed up.

Speaker 1 I could see the lights and I could see the lights fading and then there was nothing there.

Speaker 1 And I remember in your lecture in the 80s you talked about things that could be going into another dimension, okay?

Speaker 1 But I had, I thought that was interesting and

Speaker 1 the kids thought it was an interesting idea.

Speaker 1 And yeah, in science,

Speaker 1 people, you talk about different dimensions and physics and so on.

Speaker 1 But I had never seen it mentioned anywhere else. And there it was.

Speaker 1 You know, this thing faded from our universe. And I have no idea where it went.

Speaker 1 But it didn't speed up.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 I said, thank you very much. Can I publish that? It said, no way.

Speaker 1 I'm the CEO of an international

Speaker 1 commercial company. We work in several countries, and I can't have my name associated with that.
Now,

Speaker 1 I've had probably a dozen cases like that with people from Silicon Valley, people, you know,

Speaker 1 they report on Wall Street about how their company is doing.

Speaker 1 They don't want a reporter saying, are you the same guy who sees flying saucers?

Speaker 1 You're the CEO of this such and such microchip company in San Jose, you know.

Speaker 1 So,

Speaker 1 you know, they don't report it. But they want...
They want me or some of my colleagues to know about it because they know it could contribute to the research we're doing.

Speaker 1 And, you know, Dr. Nolan has had that experience as well, as you

Speaker 1 But it's not going to the Air Force, it's not going to the newspapers, it's not going to the New York Times.

Speaker 1 Now, if those things can,

Speaker 1 you know, just jump out of our universe and go somewhere else,

Speaker 1 that rewrites the whole thing. You know, we're not talking about propulsion, the way we think about propulsion.
We're not talking about

Speaker 1 environmental environment. We're not talking the passage of time

Speaker 1 in the same way that

Speaker 1 I would experience with my watch and so on. We're talking about something that has the rules are different.

Speaker 1 And we need to go up and start thinking along those rules, or at least the possibility of those rules. It doesn't prove that there is another universe five minutes ahead of us, but there could be.

Speaker 1 And then all the papers that they publish saying there couldn't be flying saucers because there isn't life, you know, closer than

Speaker 1 2,000 light years from us, and

Speaker 1 it would take at the speed of light, it would take 2,000 years to come here. Well, there could be another universe five minutes ahead of us, it would take them five minutes to get here, okay?

Speaker 1 So that would explain why we have visitations throughout history and they look the same throughout history because

Speaker 1 our technology, I mean, this technology or this microphone didn't exist 20 years ago. You know, it's a new microphone.
And there were no microphones,

Speaker 1 you know, 200 years ago. There were no microphones at all.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 how come those things look the same?

Speaker 1 How can we compare them to something somebody saw in the eighteenth century? Right, right. That shouldn't happen.

Speaker 1 You know, unless your technology is stuck. Right, right, right.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that that is a fascinating aspect of it, right?

Speaker 2 You would expect that if you thought about how fast our technology evolves, technology from nineteen forty seven from some other planet would be exponentially more advanced than what we experienced in 1947.

Speaker 2 Be just based on how our technology evolves.

Speaker 1 And you you'll have to think, I mean, we think about an aircraft in ways completely different. I mean, there are things that, yes,

Speaker 1 it came from the Wright brothers and so on, and there were speculation before on how you could fly. But what an aircraft does today

Speaker 1 is

Speaker 1 radically different. The whole physics is different.

Speaker 2 And we're only talking about a hundred and some years ago, which is pretty crazy.

Speaker 2 You go from this thing that Wilbur and Orwell will write, you know, kind of like get it to take some air for a little bit, to the Chinese jet, which is disguising itself from radar and travels at insane speeds, and then the possibility of other propulsion systems that have been kept under wraps.

Speaker 1 Oh, to the Harrier that stays.

Speaker 2 Yes, and then lands like that. Yeah.
No, just the technology that we know that we're aware of over the last 200 years is pretty extraordinary.

Speaker 2 And if you imagine something from somewhere that's had thousands of years to evolve past us.

Speaker 1 There are a couple of things I wanted to bring up that are in this, in the book.

Speaker 1 Well, one is in the book, the other one isn't.

Speaker 1 What's in the book is I've tried to continue the parapsychology experiments that were done at SRI and now at lots of other places.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I

Speaker 1 got advice from people who said if you put yourself in certain types of conditions,

Speaker 1 you could

Speaker 1 try to manifest

Speaker 1 another form of intelligence or another form of, essentially an apparition.

Speaker 1 It's not necessarily related to UFOs, but if you can do that,

Speaker 1 that would teach you what you could do also with some of the encounters that people describe,

Speaker 1 that the witnesses tell me. So, if I'm a good scientist, I should put myself in their place first and experience it myself.

Speaker 1 So, I did a couple of sort of mental experiments like that in my home. I was alone at the time in my home, and

Speaker 1 nothing happened.

Speaker 1 And then, nothing like what I expected happened.

Speaker 1 And then I was asleep one night

Speaker 1 and all of a sudden I'm propelled outside of my body into another room and there is an entity there,

Speaker 1 a massive sort of rectangular

Speaker 1 mass, you know, entity.

Speaker 1 Clearly,

Speaker 1 you know, something that

Speaker 1 knows where it is and

Speaker 1 is thinking.

Speaker 1 I'm terrified, not terrified so much of the entity. It's like a sort of black,

Speaker 1 you know, a rectangle,

Speaker 1 but I'm terrified of being outside my body. I know people do experiments with that, and there are people who can do it almost at will.
I've never tried to do that, I think, because I've heard

Speaker 1 cautions that it's very dangerous, because what if you don't find your way back?

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 I'm terrified. I get, I find myself back in my body, I get, you know, I sit up completely terrified, crying, screaming,

Speaker 1 which is not

Speaker 1 usual with me.

Speaker 1 because

Speaker 1 it was just, you know, it really was horrible.

Speaker 1 Then I rationalize it, you know, and that the experience wasn't supposed to happen outside of my body.

Speaker 1 When people describe entities

Speaker 1 like Whitley Streeber describes it and so on, there is a very strong psychic, you know, impact.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 to me that was very shocking. It hasn't happened before and hasn't happened since.

Speaker 1 I'm not trying to make it happen, but

Speaker 1 I wanted to flag it and

Speaker 1 to get advice mostly from other people.

Speaker 2 Did you feel compelled to try it again?

Speaker 1 I would try it again.

Speaker 2 But you have not yet.

Speaker 1 No. No.

Speaker 2 I can understand. It was that terrifying.

Speaker 1 If you woke up screaming. I could get counsel from

Speaker 1 my peers or something.

Speaker 2 That's like similar to the monolith in 2001, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 you know, there is

Speaker 1 a scientist I know well in Silicon Valley who also started a number of companies that are publicly traded now,

Speaker 1 who invented the integrated circuit. His name is Federico Fagin.
He's a physicist from Italy, with a PhD from Italy.

Speaker 1 He came to Silicon Valley in the very early days of the transistor, worked with the initial teams

Speaker 1 in those places. And

Speaker 1 then, you know, there was a problem of how can you pack those things together in smaller and smaller

Speaker 1 places.

Speaker 1 And he's,

Speaker 1 you know, recognized as the father or one of the two or three people who invented the integrated circuit. circuit.

Speaker 1 So for a long time he was celebrated in that capacity.

Speaker 1 What he didn't say is that he had seen the design outside of his body one night

Speaker 1 and that he had had multiple experiences outside of his body.

Speaker 1 Now this is someone, you know, one of the fathers of Silicon Valley. I mean, I recognize him as one of my mentors, you know,

Speaker 1 in venture capital, in high technology investment.

Speaker 1 But now he started to, I mean,

Speaker 1 he's made enough money that he doesn't care anymore and he's sort of semi-retiring. He doesn't like what's going on

Speaker 1 right now and he's probably going to go back to Europe.

Speaker 1 But the

Speaker 1 there are a number of people like that whose names are in the Wall Street Journal or in the New York Times who've achieved something uh but they you find out that they also had

Speaker 1 uh and they they experimented with it. In his case, he experimented systematically with, you know, the ability to go out of his body and and uh

Speaker 2 and acquire this information from some other source.

Speaker 2 Well uh

Speaker 1 there isn't much.

Speaker 1 There are a couple of books that mention

Speaker 1 steps you can take, but it seems to be pretty much up to the individual.

Speaker 1 In my case, I certainly wasn't trying to do that.

Speaker 1 I was precipitated instantly to the place where this being was.

Speaker 1 There were also a couple of things that I never wrote about,

Speaker 1 not that I wanted to hide them or was afraid of them, but I wanted to

Speaker 1 understand the context of it before I did. And I talk about it in this book.

Speaker 1 In the

Speaker 1 late 70s, my wife, my first wife, Janine,

Speaker 1 was a psychologist.

Speaker 1 We bought a place in the country in

Speaker 1 Northern California, a place in the Redwood Forest, because I wanted to re-experience the pleasure of doing astronomy as an amateur, you know, a small telescope and so on.

Speaker 1 But I don't care, I want to look at the moon, I want to look at planets, I want to look at

Speaker 1 magellanic

Speaker 1 clouds,

Speaker 1 or whatever.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 so we we built this well we had a

Speaker 1 there was a house there, but I built an observatory in the middle of the forest. Well close neighbor, this was a redwood forest, you know,

Speaker 1 uncluttered and you know unspoiled. Pretty much inaccessible.
And you know,

Speaker 1 if you didn't own the land, you know, you couldn't go cut the trees. So those were, there were some old redwoods there, and some, and the closest neighbor was about three-quarter miles away,

Speaker 1 three-quarter of a mile away. And

Speaker 1 I thought this is going to be like a discontinuity in the forest, and maybe it will attract whatever is out there,

Speaker 1 and maybe we'll see UFOs. We never did.
We owned the place for 18 years, would go there with our kids, and it was wonderful.

Speaker 1 But we went there not every weekend, but pretty much as much as we could. And then our kids grew up and moved away.
We moved back to the city. We sold the place.

Speaker 1 The last night,

Speaker 1 of course, we had cleaned the place.

Speaker 1 We were selling it to friends of ours who were our neighbors at a winery.

Speaker 1 They wanted to expand the land.

Speaker 1 We had some flat land they wanted to use for the wine, and they wanted the house. And so

Speaker 1 the last night everything has been moved out. My wife is still there because we had

Speaker 1 a car that was going to be

Speaker 1 taken back to the city and she had her car

Speaker 1 and she was ready to go. Middle of the night, there's a light that's

Speaker 1 filling the house. No, by then there are no curtains, nothing.

Speaker 1 Filling the house. Blue, you know, sort of UV

Speaker 1 or white, blue, ultraviolet light.

Speaker 1 She goes outside and

Speaker 1 the light is making everything clear, the forest, everything else.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 it's moving. It doesn't have a specific shape.
You know, it's like a mass of light with light all around it. It's going down the driveway, which is a

Speaker 1 dirt road, to the main road,

Speaker 1 to the small road. And it's just moving along politely in front of the ranch and down

Speaker 1 to the street.

Speaker 1 It has no business being there. You know, no sound.
It's not a car. It's not a car on fire.
it's not the the the the light, again, everything is the all the details are there. You can see the

Speaker 1 the grass, you can see the leaves on the trees. And

Speaker 1 why that?

Speaker 2 Maybe you called for it and it took a long time to get there.

Speaker 1 Well, yeah, or or they just wanted to say goodbye.

Speaker 1 Yeah, maybe.

Speaker 2 Maybe they were there the whole time and they just didn't want to show themselves.

Speaker 2 So let's put on a show for Jacques.

Speaker 1 There was one time we used to sleep in the observatory. There was a small bedroom there with old books that I had collected.
And

Speaker 1 she saw, she woke up and she saw a light that was like what people describe, a small light. She didn't see where it came from or where it went, but it was moving along the walls.

Speaker 1 There were two of them. and then it vanished.

Speaker 1 She woke me up, but I had not not seen it. It was gone by the time I woke up.

Speaker 2 I talked to a man when I went to visit Skinwalker Ranch. A few people wanted to talk to us, but then once we brought the cameras out, only one guy wanted to talk to us.

Speaker 2 And he was very rational, very normal guy who lived in a modest home, and he told the story about this ball of light that entered through his home. And it seemed to be

Speaker 2 somehow or another aware that he was there. He felt like it was,

Speaker 2 if not a living thing, controlled by something that was alive.

Speaker 2 And then it went through the walls and disappeared again. He said it was in his home for a few minutes,

Speaker 2 moving around.

Speaker 1 Well, as you know, Mr. Bigelow has done experiments of his own with lights and with

Speaker 1 things like that, putting interesting objects in certain places that are enclosed and

Speaker 1 and seeing if something is going to look around or move them and so on. So

Speaker 1 very, you know,

Speaker 1 very interesting.

Speaker 2 Well, it's such a fascinating subject. And like I said, I really appreciate all your years of research and the way you're so measured and so objective in your analysis.

Speaker 2 It really helps people like myself. get at least some sort of an understanding of what's going on.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 what's what's important is to have guidelines, you know, for research. So

Speaker 1 I look to some of the people you have here, you know, who've done some other exploring and I try to learn from them and sort of refine my

Speaker 1 own criteria. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Well, thank you very much. And your book,

Speaker 2 again,

Speaker 2 the one that's available now, this is Forbidden Science 6. This is the sixth of these books.
And

Speaker 1 Scattered Castles is a

Speaker 1 it's not classified, but it comes from the classified world. It's a repository of classified projects.

Speaker 1 So if you're cleared at a certain level and you want to know what what else is there that you would have access to or where certain things are being sent to you and you're authorized to, you look up the names of those projects.

Speaker 1 It wouldn't tell you what the project does unless you're cleared for it, but it would tell you that there is a project. And so those names of secret projects are picked by a computer.
They are random.

Speaker 1 And I thought this was funny. You know,

Speaker 1 scattered castles is sort of like

Speaker 1 you know, all these files about strange

Speaker 1 UFOs and strange creatures.

Speaker 2 Well, I can't wait to read it.

Speaker 2 Thank you so much. Thank you for everything.
It was great having dinner with you and Hal put off and everybody else last night as well. So I really appreciate you very much.

Speaker 3 Thank you. Thank you for the time.

Speaker 2 Bye, everybody.