#2239 - Derek, More Plates More Dates

Speaker 0 Joe Rogan podcast, check it out!

Speaker 1 The Joe Rogan experience.

Speaker 2 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.

Speaker 2 So, we just watched this.

Speaker 2 What is this exact job?

Speaker 2 We watched this guy get assassinated,

Speaker 2 which is kind of.

Speaker 2 I've seen more people assassinated and killed over the last two years on Instagram than I ever have in my whole life. Oh, yeah, dude.

Speaker 1 The Explore page now is a

Speaker 1 disaster.

Speaker 2 It's just like me and Tom Segura have this thing where we send each other the most fucked up thing we find every day.

Speaker 2 It's a brutal text thread, but because of it, now I'm locked into this algorithm.

Speaker 3 I'm the CEO of their insurance unit, which I don't know what the difference is and what people heard.

Speaker 2 He's a CEO, but a targeted attack by a gunman waiting for him, a real assassination, 6.45 a.m. outside the Hilton on 6th Avenue, where the company's annual investor conference is about to take place.

Speaker 1 Yeah, man.

Speaker 2 I wonder what's going on with that.

Speaker 2 That's one of those things that just makes conspiracy theorists go cuckoo. I'm sure there's some real good theories floating around on X right now.

Speaker 1 Oh, for sure.

Speaker 2 Is there?

Speaker 2 It's gotta be.

Speaker 3 The investor meeting has now been canceled, obviously, but so that was maybe the goal.

Speaker 1 What's worse, your X Explorer page or your Instagram?

Speaker 2 My Instagram. Oh, really? Yeah.

Speaker 2 I don't.

Speaker 2 I just follow. I mean, I follow a lot of people on both X and Instagram.

Speaker 2 I don't know if it's necessarily a good thing, but when someone says something interesting or they post something interesting on Instagram, I just immediately follow. Let's see.

Speaker 2 Let's see if this would be fun.

Speaker 2 But on the thing about Twitter or X is that, like,

Speaker 2 I don't interact enough. to have a really fucked up algorithm.
I'm mostly just reading stuff. I don't really hardly ever like post anything.

Speaker 1 I think the problem is I'll click to watch a full video of the fucked up things. So then it reinforces the algorithm.
Like, oh, you want to see this guy get shot?

Speaker 1 Or, oh, you want to see this car accident. We'll give you more of those.

Speaker 2 I've seen so many people get run over by cars.

Speaker 1 Oh. So yeah, and yeah, it's crazy because

Speaker 1 a lot of the stuff I've seen in the past year, I didn't even know could be on the internet. Right.

Speaker 2 I don't know how it is when there's so many things you can't put on. Do you know that there's a loophole that the ladies use to show their breasts?

Speaker 1 Which one?

Speaker 2 Fake boobs, fake baby. Oh, no.
Yeah, they use a fake baby. So they breastfeed.

Speaker 2 So you got these girls, these big juicy melons, and they pull one out and have a rubber baby, and the rubber baby's stuck on its head. And the baby looks so fake.

Speaker 2 That's hilarious. But they can get some like pretty realistic fake babies.
Yeah, yeah. Like, what was that movie with

Speaker 2 the sniper movie about Chris Kyle.

Speaker 1 What was that called?

Speaker 2 Remember, it was a movie where he had a fake baby and it was like so obvious. He's got this like rubber baby and he's like holding on to his child in this stupid scene.

Speaker 1 I'm pretty sure on Twitter you can just post nudity without any

Speaker 1 like problems, right?

Speaker 2 You can post pornography.

Speaker 1 Yeah, dude, the replies to a lot of tweets that are irrelevant to porn, it'll just be like, that's cool, but have you seen my pussy? It'll be like some chick promoting our OnlyFans.

Speaker 1 That's so common now. And I just like the discourse is like half infested at this point.

Speaker 2 They had this one lady who was saying she made $40 million this year on

Speaker 2 OnlyFans.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, that's nuts.

Speaker 2 $40 million.

Speaker 3 And she's a virgin, I guess, and she doesn't post shit.

Speaker 1 Sure.

Speaker 2 Sure, she's a virgin.

Speaker 1 Sure.

Speaker 2 She's a 23-year-old big-tittied virgin.

Speaker 1 The only one that exists in the whole world.

Speaker 1 See, that's an interesting

Speaker 1 scenario, if true, because it's like a lot of dudes want to shit on these chicks for being like prostitutes, essentially. Right.

Speaker 1 But like, if she was actually a virgin and she's posting like almost nude, but not quite, but making a bunch of money off it. Yeah.
There's like two contradictory things going on right now.

Speaker 2 Yeah, she wins. But the problem is, this is, I mean, I don't want to tell anybody to not do anything.
Like, ladies, you do what you want, you do you.

Speaker 2 If I was a young, pretty girl, I'd probably be on OnlyFans. I'd probably make some money.
Fuck it. Why would I want to be a waitress when I could just show my tits? That's how I would look at it.

Speaker 2 The problem is twofold. One, you become addicted to an extraordinary amount of money if you're successful at it, right? So there's like a scale of people on the OnlyFans, apparently.

Speaker 2 Most of the OnlyFans, we talked about this, right? Like most of the gals don't make that much money. Most of them.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, that's what's that much six figures or millions or no like even less like most of them make like a few thousand dollars a month i think so i think out of this 43 one guy paid her five million she said yeah dude that's insane

Speaker 1 dude would suck too is if you went full board and you did like actual porn and you made and just got like banged on camera just for thinking you're gonna become a multi-millionaire and then you still are like you would have to get banged on camera a lot for years to really develop a fan base and you have to do a really good job, like, every time.

Speaker 2 Super enthusiastic. But my point is, like, you're not going to, like,

Speaker 2 most

Speaker 2 beautiful young women want a high-value man as a husband. If, let's say they're heterosexual, let's just assume they want to get married.
If they do want to get married, they do want a relationship.

Speaker 2 You're not going to get a high-value man, especially if you're making, if you're making millions of dollars a year doing this, you're going to want a guy who makes millions of dollars a year, right?

Speaker 2 You're not going to want a guy who makes less than you. You're probably used to buying fucking Louis Vuitton, this and that, and you're used to all this shit.

Speaker 2 So you're probably, you're wealthy, right? So you're already your dating pool is smaller because you're probably not interested in a guy who makes $100,000 a year.

Speaker 2 Like a regular guy to you is like, what is he going to do? He can't even take me anywhere.

Speaker 2 I'm going to pay for our vacation. Get the fuck out of here, right?

Speaker 2 So you've already cut regular guys out. So now you have a very small pool of men that you can date.
And then out of that pool, how many of them are going to accept the fact that you're doing this?

Speaker 2 Now you have an even smaller pool.

Speaker 2 So some guys will accept it, but for how long?

Speaker 2 Like if you get real serious and you get married and then you're still showing your asshole to everybody, that's, you know, you're in, but you're addicted to that money.

Speaker 2 Like, are you going to pick a relationship over this guy who may or may not be DMing his ex-girlfriend?

Speaker 2 You know, like, are you going to throw it all away and throw away this $40 million dollar a year empire you've created or are you trapped in that essentially forever

Speaker 1 yeah it's uh

Speaker 1 it's interesting the thresholds though too of where they become successful for what they're doing because it seems like some of them don't have to show their asshole they just they just post like thirst trap fitness girl type content almost and people pay for that i

Speaker 2 why would they pay for that when there's so much of that for free on instagram i know that's like the common question And my search page on Instagram is all butts.

Speaker 1 I assume it's something to do with like you follow this person and like you get a bigger hit of dopamine probably from being able to hypothetically potentially see more revealing something from somebody that you are like a fan of already.

Speaker 1 Interaction.

Speaker 1 That I think is a big component too. Cause it's like I think half the income is like

Speaker 2 Well, there was some Google guy, some executive at Google that was warning about what's going to happen with AI girlfriends, with these sort of indistinguishable AI girlfriends that are going to interact with guys, and how this is going to create like profound loneliness and all sorts of real problems.

Speaker 2 This episode is brought to you by the farmer's dog. I think we can all agree that eating highly processed food for every meal isn't optimal.
So why is processed food the status quo for dog food?

Speaker 2 Because that's what kibble is, an ultra-processed food. But a healthy alternative exists, the farmer's dog.
They make fresh food for dogs. And what does it look like?

Speaker 2 Real meat and vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients and help avoid any of the bad stuff that comes with ultra-processing. And it's not just random ingredients thrown together.

Speaker 2 Their food is formulated by on-staff board-certified vet nutritionists. These people are experts on dog nutrition and they're all in on fresh food.
The The farmer's dog also does something unique.

Speaker 2 They portion out the food to your dog's nutritional needs. This ensures that you don't overfeed them, making weight management easy.

Speaker 2 Research shows that dogs kept at a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer. Head to thefarmersdog.com slash Rogan to get 50% off your first box plus free shipping.

Speaker 2 This offer is for new customers only. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace.
If you've got something to sell or want to take your business online, Squarespace has you covered.

Speaker 2 Their built-in SEO tools help people find you

Speaker 2 and you can sell products, take payments, even manage bookings all from one easy platform. Go to squarespace.com/slash Rogan for a free trial.

Speaker 2 And when you're ready to launch, use the code Rogan to get 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I imagine so. And

Speaker 1 I imagine a lot of the DM conversations are probably AI chat GPT already.

Speaker 2 100%. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Or, you know, you got some Andrew Tate type deal. There's a bunch of dudes who are like pounding on the keyboard where the girl shows her tits, which is what he did for years.

Speaker 1 Yeah, innovator. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And the curve.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah, you're going to not have any idea whether it's even a real person, right?

Speaker 2 Because there's a bunch of AI-generated girlfriends or girls rather that have OnlyFans where they don't even exist. They're not even a physical being.

Speaker 1 Yeah, there's some pretty big Instagram pages, I think, that are just like fake. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And it's just like even a, I think they're owned by entities like companies that have like an army of AI chicks. Yeah.
Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 Which is crazy. And they generate a lot of money.

Speaker 1 I've seen the comment section on a couple of them too. And shockingly, well, maybe not.
I don't know. But there's a lot of people that are engaging with it like it's a real person.

Speaker 1 And I thought it was pretty obvious it was AI, but I mean, like, some people are pretty stupid.

Speaker 2 Well, there's a high percentage of people in this country that have a below 85 IQ.

Speaker 2 Like a real good percentage. Isn't it like 15 or 20 percent? Is it something nutty like that?

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's like a it's the same amount the people that are like above it are gonna be below it. It's like a standard deviation of like averages and stats.

Speaker 2 Yeah, there's people that are they're about as smart as a Labrador.

Speaker 2 They just can talk. And you can trick them.
Yeah, yeah. You know, and if you can get those dumbasses that work at Subway to donate $5 a month and you get enough of them.

Speaker 1 Have you seen the

Speaker 1 UFC collab with that OnlyFans

Speaker 1 chick?

Speaker 2 Does the UFC collab with the OnlyFans chick? Pull it up. What is this?

Speaker 1 So there's this girl who, to spark outrage and get engagement, she breaks

Speaker 1 like exotic cars. Like she'll stand on a Lambo and just smash the windshield or something.
What? And just like shake her ass. And then it gets tons of views.

Speaker 1 And there's a bunch of guys freaking out because she's disrespecting a nice piece of machinery or whatever but at the end of the day she gets views from it and then more people go to her page and sign up to it but how much is a lambo worth like lambos are like half a million dollars right she'll smash like the windshield only or like a window from like the driver's side and then do some like call to action or something wow i pull up the the ufc one you'll be able to tell what i'm talking about better the girl you're talking about but i don't i didn't know she did something with the UFC.

Speaker 1 Yeah, Dana White posted it.

Speaker 1 What? He's like, check this shit out.

Speaker 1 What?

Speaker 1 Yeah. I gotta find it.
Hold on a second. Unless they on.

Speaker 2 Is it on the UFC Instagram?

Speaker 1 Yeah, it was like a collaboration I saw a few days ago.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 What? They're giving away a McLaren or something for the next UFC event, I think. And she's the one who's talking about it after smashing the window of Alamba.

Speaker 2 What?

Speaker 1 Yeah. Real?

Speaker 1 I thought it was kind kind of a weird combo.

Speaker 2 This is the gal?

Speaker 2 Oh, don't do it. Don't.

Speaker 2 Is that a crowbar? Oh, what the fuck are you doing? Oh, Jesus.

Speaker 5 That's why I'm giving away this McLaren 600 LT at PowerSlap for free. Check out the links in our bios on how to enter.

Speaker 1 Everybody said that.

Speaker 2 Wow, we're the dumbest fucking race.

Speaker 1 We're so dumb. What are the accounts that collabed with it? It was UFC, right?

Speaker 3 Yeah, it was a for PowerSlap event.

Speaker 1 We are, we are, of course it's for PowerSlap.

Speaker 2 That's just as dumb.

Speaker 2 We are the dumbest motherfuckers that have ever lived.

Speaker 1 We really are. What do you think about power slap?

Speaker 1 I don't.

Speaker 2 I don't. I don't get it.

Speaker 2 I've watched it a ton of times on like little Instagram reels. You know, when it shows up, I watch guys get KO'd.

Speaker 2 I would never advise anybody to do it. I don't care how good you are at getting slapped.
I don't care how good you are at slapping people. For me, the whole idea of fighting is to hit and not get hit.

Speaker 2 The whole idea is the skill. It's like you impose your skill set.
It's like a human chess game. That's the opposite.
You're just standing in front of each other, whacking each other in the face.

Speaker 2 But I will watch. So if people want to do it, that's your jam.
If you're some giant fat guy, you see, one of those guys actually had a fight, a dirty boxing fight with Yoel Romero.

Speaker 1 Oh, he's like the freaks. Yeah, he's like the dirty boxing king, dude.

Speaker 2 He's also super juicy now. He's a heavyweight now.
So Yoel is 47.

Speaker 2 So he was competing under pretty rigorous testing with the UFC as far as like, you know, I'm sure you would disagree. But look at what he looks like now.

Speaker 1 We could talk about that later. Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Speaker 2 This is Yoel now.

Speaker 2 He smashes this guy. Look at the size of him.
This is not a good video, Jamie. Find another video of it.
There's the actual video of it from the fight event.

Speaker 2 That's like someone's camera from the side view. But he's huge.
Yoel's like 220 now, 225, baby. He's fucking massive.

Speaker 1 He used to suck down to 185. And then what would he walk in at, though?

Speaker 2 I think like well, when he would weigh 185, this is back when Yoel was fighting, there was actual weigh-ins. Yeah.
You know, so right now there's actual weigh-ins, but it's a ceremonial weigh-in.

Speaker 2 Like tomorrow at the UFC, I'll host the ceremonial weigh-in. So the fighters weighed in at like nine o'clock in the morning.
The ceremonial weigh-in is at 5 p.m.

Speaker 2 They've had the entire day to rehydrate. So Yoel back in those days was 185 when you weighed in at 5 p.m.

Speaker 2 at 185 and you couldn't believe he was 185 because I would be like 200 pounds and I'd be sitting there. I'm like, how?

Speaker 1 How am I bigger than you?

Speaker 2 This doesn't make any, this like defies all known laws of physics and gravity. Like it doesn't make any sense.
He was massive. These enormous traps.

Speaker 2 He was one of the rare guys that when he would suck weight he didn't look smaller he still looked fucking huge man yeah he had like really he has really round muscle bellies so it's almost like bodybuilder-esque in terms of like how much how much bigger you look just cosmetically to you so this guy that he's fighting is a slap fight guy and look at the size of y'all now

Speaker 2 he's definitely less lean yeah he's less lean he's eating whatever he wants but he's still got a six pack

Speaker 2 but he's fucking massive dude so how do you end up in this league like what was oh i i think this is mike mike perry's thing i think he's putting this together or he's involved with it in some way shape or form so yoel is just basically like toying with this guy this guy has literally no business no disrespect to the man but no business in the the ring with this world-class athlete like how much do you got to get paid to go in and fight Yoel for this?

Speaker 2 $15. Like watch how he hops up in the air before he decides to go.

Speaker 1 What is that about?

Speaker 2 He just decides to, like, hop in the air. He's like, enough.
Let me end this. He just decides it's time to end it.

Speaker 1 Oh, my God.

Speaker 2 He's fucking huge, dude.

Speaker 1 Look at his back. Look at his back.

Speaker 2 That guy used to weigh 185.

Speaker 2 And by the way,

Speaker 2 see the back of his neck? He has a fully fused neck.

Speaker 2 If he wasn't, you know, 36 when he entered into the UFC, that's how old he was when he first started fighting. He was already past his professional prime when he first started fighting in the UFC.

Speaker 2 You know, if he had gotten into MMA when he was 20, probably nobody would have ever beaten him.

Speaker 2 He's the freak of all freaks. When it comes to athletic specimens, he's the freak.

Speaker 1 Yeah, when was his last fight in the UFC?

Speaker 2 Quite a while ago.

Speaker 2 He fought Adesanya, I want to say five years ago.

Speaker 2 When did he fight Israel?

Speaker 2 And I think maybe he had one other fight other than that, but you know, he was knocking guys dead at 40.

Speaker 1 You know, like world classes.

Speaker 3 March 7th, 2020.

Speaker 2 There you go. So that was his last fight in the UFC.
So the last four years, he's been competing for Bellator.

Speaker 2 And so they're a little less stringent. They don't have a USADA deal or now

Speaker 2 whatever it's called,

Speaker 2 Drug-Free Sport, I think they call it now. That's the new company.
Which is essentially the same protocols, but they don't wake you up on the day of the weigh-ins or anything like that.

Speaker 2 USATA was gross. Like, they would take these guys that are dehydrated, starving themselves, day before the fight, wake them up at six o'clock in the morning.

Speaker 1 Did you see that article I sent you about the USATA corruption?

Speaker 1 Yes. So let's talk about that.
Yeah, so basically, and this was like a Wadda press release, too. So it's not like it was some journalist or something.
It's like on the official WATA site.

Speaker 1 And they were basically exposing how USATA was covering up test results.

Speaker 2 For which athletes?

Speaker 1 Unnamed.

Speaker 1 Which sports? They wouldn't say. They just said like Olympic level athletes and elite athletes and kept it very vague.
Really?

Speaker 1 And essentially,

Speaker 1 they just closed what they had tested positive for.

Speaker 1 And even that one of them was an Olympic caliber athlete and their entire career, they got to go until retirement without getting exposed just because they helped USATA supposedly catch other people.

Speaker 2 Oh, they were narcs?

Speaker 1 So like, yeah, so if you help them catch people, then you could get away with using like full board testosterone. EPA.
Oh, really?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Oh, my God. So they're like a drug dealer that works for the government.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and this is like one of the reasons of many why like Hunter and others are very critical of USATA and are glad they're not under it anymore.

Speaker 2 Well, there's a lot of stupidity with their regulations. Like one of them is BBC 157, which is natural in the human body.
You know, and peptides, all they're doing is helping you heal.

Speaker 2 You're literally dealing with a sport where you beat the fucking shit out of each other every day in training. And you're not going to like assist these people in healing.

Speaker 2 Like, wouldn't that only benefit everybody? There's no like fear of like harm. There's no, there's like, no one's dying from BBC 157.

Speaker 2 Within the code, there's a provision whereby an athlete who provides substantial assistance can subsequently apply to have a proportion of their period of ineligibility suspended.

Speaker 2 Wow, look how they phrase that. What dirty language.
Proportion of their period of ineligibility suspended. What does that mean? It means you're allowing them to cheat.

Speaker 2 However, there's a clear process for that, which does not involve allowing those who have cheated to continue to compete while they may or may not gather incriminating info.

Speaker 2 Wait a minute. What are you saying then? So it doesn't do that.
They're saying it doesn't do that.

Speaker 1 At the bottom, Wada is now aware of at least three cases where athletes who had committed serious anti-doping rule violations were allowed to continue to compete for years while they acted as undercover agents.

Speaker 2 Okay, so they pretended that they wouldn't let someone compete if they were doping, but they still did.

Speaker 1 Yeah, essentially. While they were on shit.
Wow.

Speaker 2 Imagine if that's like boxing in the Olympics or something like that. The athlete was allowed to line up against their unknowing competitors as if they had never cheated.

Speaker 2 In that case, when USATA eventually admitted to Wada what had been going on, it advised that any publication of consequences or disqualification of results would put the athlete's security at risk.

Speaker 2 What?

Speaker 2 And asked Wada to agree to non-publication.

Speaker 1 What?

Speaker 2 Security? Were they worried about that with Lance Armstrong?

Speaker 2 The fuck are you talking about? Security at risk.

Speaker 2 Another case of a high-level level athlete, USATA never notified WADA of its decision to lift an athlete's provisional suspension, which is an appealable decision, despite being required to do so under the code.

Speaker 2 Had WADA been notified, it would have never allowed this.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 2 interesting.

Speaker 1 And it sounds like this was

Speaker 1 somewhat how they operated: if they had a high-profile enough person or certain circumstances, they would kind of autonomously decide: hey, if you work alongside us to catch other people because you might know something that we don't or what have you, then we'll just let you,

Speaker 1 you know, no one will know.

Speaker 2 That's so dirty. That's so dirty.
That's literally contrary to the whole reason why they exist. Yeah.

Speaker 2 What's really crazy is, I mean, according to the UFC, so what happened was the UFC had some disputes with them, decided to sever their relationship.

Speaker 2 And then USADA, like, publicly said that UFC is going to allow their competitors to do steroids now, which is not the case at all. Like, they already had a contract in place with drug-free sport.

Speaker 2 I talked to the guy from Drug-Free Sport, and he was essentially laying out the prototype. It was essentially identical.
No BPC-157, no testosterone, nothing. Like, you can't do anything.

Speaker 1 The standards are actually much higher now, too, in contrast.

Speaker 1 Like, you said I would claim, or at least suggest, that they were doing full-spectrum bulletproof testing, but it turned out they were almost never EPO testing.

Speaker 1 The HGH testing was never really done. And then also the isoform,

Speaker 1 what was it, the isotope ratio mass spec? was not really being done either.

Speaker 2 Was that

Speaker 2 like a budget thing? Like it was too expensive to do those tests?

Speaker 1 I believe so. And also time intensive for some of these tests as well.
And I guess for like the number of tests they were conducting, perhaps it was too extensive.

Speaker 1 Or I don't really know what the exact motivation was. Like often you would think it comes down to budget and time.

Speaker 1 But also if you have an expert who just thinks it's not warranted to go further, like the same way if you went to a doctor and you'd be like, should I test this?

Speaker 1 They'll be like, oh, if we know this, like, who cares? It's not necessary. Like, I don't necessarily know.
They went to the depth and rigor to claim somebody did or didn't cheat.

Speaker 1 If I have, you know, preliminary data that you would exclude having to go further, sometimes you don't have to, you know, test further if there's not an atypical finding.

Speaker 2 So, yeah, but like, let's put if they're not testing for EPO, for example, and maybe there's an event in Mexico City, right, which is 7,700 feet above sea level. That place is brutal.

Speaker 2 That's where Kane Velasquez,

Speaker 2 who who was known as like probably the greatest cardio heavyweight of all time, he fought Fabricio over doom and he did not prepare properly.

Speaker 2 Fabricio actually moved to the mountains above Mexico City and trained there for like four months.

Speaker 2 So Fabrizio, who speaks fluent Spanish, lived in Mexico, like he was really got ready and he beat Cain Velasquez in that night to become the champion.

Speaker 2 And he had tremendous cardio and Cain was just dying. That's how brutal Mexico City is.

Speaker 2 So imagine when you're competing at that altitude, or maybe Colorado Springs, or one of these, like really high-altitude places, which we have events, Salt Lake City, and you don't test for EPO.

Speaker 1 Yeah, no, that's insane.

Speaker 2 Crazy. That's crazy because that's the place where you would do it, particularly if you're defending your title or you're challenging for a title.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and it's like some of this stuff, even if you're looking for it, is quite difficult to detect anyway.

Speaker 1 It's like micro-dosing EPO is still, they're trying to refine the parameters and determine with greater scrutiny how to detect it.

Speaker 2 How long is the like the life that's detectable inside your body?

Speaker 1 I believe it's like a few days. And that's if you're using like, that's not a micro-dose protocol either.

Speaker 2 Well, how much of a benefit do you get from micro-dosing?

Speaker 1 Fairly significant, given you can, even just retaining your baseline parameters if you're weight cutting can be quite helpful.

Speaker 1 So it's almost like offsetting, for example, the suppression of hormones or the suppression of like any sort of parameter that would decrease with heavy nutrient deprivation.

Speaker 1 If you can sustain it at normal, is performance enhancing in contrast to your competitors who are also weight cutting and might not have the same advantages.

Speaker 2 Well, that's why TJ Dillishaw did it when he was dropping down the fly weight to fight Henry Cejudo, which is when he got popped. And, you know, but he was, he looked like a skeleton.

Speaker 2 Did you ever see those weight cut?

Speaker 1 Yeah, that was insane. I might be misspeaking on the detection time of EPO, by the way, way, but it's at minimum the micro-dose protocols that are being implemented still.

Speaker 1 Even most recent literature, you find upwards of 50% of the studied participants where they're actually looking for it still pass their testing. Really? Yeah.
Wow.

Speaker 2 Well, one of the things that I've read about sauna is that sauna use, especially like directly after cardio, imparts

Speaker 2 like a micro-dose EPO effect. Have you read anything about that?

Speaker 1 Not for not recently, no. So, I don't know.
Maybe you could brush me up.

Speaker 2 Do you have a I well, maybe we could find it, but I know it's helped my cardio.

Speaker 2 It helped significantly because I went through an injury once where I couldn't do any kickboxing or any hitting the bag or anything for quite a while.

Speaker 2 And whenever I did come back from like three or four months off of that, it would be the first few days were fucking brutal. And it wasn't brutal at all.
And it was because of regular sauna use.

Speaker 2 Sauna bathing can increase the production of EPO, a hormone that stimulates the production of red blood cells. This can improve endurance performance by increasing the amount of oxygen.
Now,

Speaker 2 it says, here's how. Plasma volume, when you sit in a sauna, you sweat, which comes from blood plasma.
As your blood plasma levels decrease, your kidneys release EPO.

Speaker 2 So how do they detect endogenous versus exogenous EPO?

Speaker 1 It's similar to how they would detect for bioidentical testosterone and other hormones. They look for,

Speaker 1 does it look like an endogenous signature? So different compounds, there's different ways to analyze.

Speaker 1 But in general, it's going to be either the molecular mass of it or something to that effect would be have a blatant difference between what you would make naturally.

Speaker 1 endogenously versus exogenous origin, which is the way they make it in a lab. Does not necessarily look exactly the same.

Speaker 1 So even though it's EPO that you're injecting, it's actually like recombinant aka made in a lab and not like, it's not like they're literally pulling EPO out of a guy and then giving it to you.

Speaker 1 It's like grown in a lab, essentially.

Speaker 2 Right, right. Well, that was one of the things that Jeff Nowitzky actually

Speaker 2 said could be an issue is that it is possible, at least theoretically, to take testosterone from animals. Yeah.
So find a mammal-based testosterone instead of getting it from... So

Speaker 2 they create it from wild yams, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah, so wild yams from Mexico apparently where they get all the testosterone that when you buy testosterone sepinate or whatever and soy yeah soy yeah, what do you mean?

Speaker 1 Yeah, they use soy to like the phyto

Speaker 1 some of the compounds in the soy as well as the yams look similar molecularly to

Speaker 1 the cholesterol that would get basically enzymatically converted to testosterone.

Speaker 1 So you can just manipulate that slightly to have like a highly reproducible at-scale for low-cost way to make hormones. And that's how testosterone is made.

Speaker 2 Oh, that's interesting because soy is always associated with like soy boys. Bad stuff.
Yeah, it's associated with high estrogen levels.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think the two primary ways they synthesize.

Speaker 2 This episode is brought to you by Tocovas. Anywhere worth going is worth going in good boots.
Tocovas craft quality Western boots for everyone.

Speaker 2 So bring it home this holiday season with a gift from the West.

Speaker 2 From cowhide and goat to exotic leathers like ostrich and caiman, whether it's their first pair or their 50th pair, at Tocovas, you'll find comfort and joy in their exact size.

Speaker 2 A great escape from the holiday chaos. Stop on in, slow down, grab a specialty pour, and find that perfect gift.

Speaker 2 Their expert and friendly staff are at your service to answer any questions and help you pick out that perfect pair of boots for yourself or a loved one.

Speaker 2 And right now, get 10% off at tacovas.com slash Rogan when you sign up for email and texts. That's 10% off at T-E-C-O-V-A-S.com slash Rogan.
See site for details, Takovas. Point your toes west.

Speaker 2 This episode is brought to you by Dodge. The 2026 Dodge Durango SRT Hellcat is all about one thing, unlocking performance.

Speaker 2 With 710 horsepower, 645 pound feet of torque, and a supercharged 6.2 liter Hemi V8 under the hood, the Dodge Durango SRT Hellcat is the most powerful SUV in the segment.

Speaker 2 It's also insanely capable, towing up to 8,700 pounds with seating up to seven. That's best-in-class muscle in a three-row SUV.
Plus, you can jailbreak it and customize the hell out of it.

Speaker 2 The SRT Hellcat jailbreak has over 6 million possible configurations. You can customize everything from paint to wheels to badging to seats.
Make it your own. This isn't a quiet SUV.
It's loud.

Speaker 2 It's fast. It's powerful and unapologetically Dodge.
Learn more now at dodge.com based on the latest competitive information available, IHS standard full-size CUV segment and horsepower.

Speaker 1 Testosterone now is soy and yammed.

Speaker 2 So Nowitsky was saying that,

Speaker 2 at least in theory, a really good scientist could actually extract it from animals, and then it would be impossible to differentiate.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think maybe the first time I came on, we talked about the carbon isotope ratio testing and having a CIR-proof testosterone formulation and if athletes are doing that.

Speaker 1 I did dig into it after we talked about it a bit more, and it does seem like there strong evidence that suggests they're aware of it and are trying to find new ways to refine even the carbon isotope ratio testing now they're looking at like hydrogen ratios because it's more minute and specific apparently as opposed to with the carbon content they've seen suspicious testosterone formulations that look similar to endogenous carbon isotope signatures.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 1 And your diet, even what you ingest, can change what your signature is too, because they have to use, as like a reference they use for example from your urine they'll find some other compound that is like upstream from testosterone for example and they will use that as a benchmark of like this is what your signature is of the carbon content of sex hormones and then if your testosterone has a different carbon isotope ratio than this they know that okay however you got this in your body is different than the upstream hormone

Speaker 1 so through that we can infer that, you know, it's probably of exogenous origin. But if the exogenous origin one looks like the upstream hormones, like you, you would never be able to tell.

Speaker 2 So, it's possible if you were sophisticated enough to make the exogenous look like the upstream.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Even though you've injected it.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And if you had like animal-grade testosterone or cholesterol, even from like a medical-grade, you know, compound facility or something, like, you could probably react it down and create like a CIR proof testosterone god it would be it seems like it'd be hard to keep that under wraps for very long without it getting out maybe yeah but it's like the access to lab equipment and high-level testing is not as uh the barrier is a lot lower than it used to be for sure like there are i even have heard of people paying off water accredited labs to get like testing done to really yeah so they could like assess where they stand in terms of like some of the testing that they would do to see if they'd pop or not.

Speaker 1 Is that legal? No.

Speaker 2 So they bribe Wada? They allegedly?

Speaker 1 There's Wada-accredited labs, not just in the States, but like in other countries where they're a bit more corrupt and you can persuade them to test your samples.

Speaker 2 Oh, so you send your piss to Guatemala or somewhere. Yeah, yeah.
And then they go, Yeah, Senor, you go triumphant.

Speaker 1 Senor just does not look good. Yeah.

Speaker 1 But yeah, and if you do enough homework, you can develop a biological passport internally with your own team and

Speaker 1 know you're bulletproof rather than just guessing.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Well, there was some concern with Brock Lesnar at one point in time before he tested positive.

Speaker 2 And one of the concerns was that he was testing himself, that he had gotten tested like a number of times, which generally you don't do.

Speaker 1 Now, why was that

Speaker 1 recorded, though? Like that they have have his medical records? Because you can just like pay for blood tests and urine analysis.

Speaker 2 I might be speaking in a turn. I might be speaking out of school here.
I don't remember. I don't remember the thing.
But I remember someone who knows things telling me.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 You know, I'm kind of on the inside. So

Speaker 2 someone who knows things on the inside told me, dude, he got tested like 20 fucking times or something crazy like that during camp.

Speaker 1 Oh, he was for sure trying to get around those.

Speaker 2 Well, he's also pissed hot. This is when he fought Mark Hunt.
And

Speaker 2 a giant lawsuit involved right now. Oh, wow.
Yeah, I don't know if that lawsuit has been, if it's still ongoing or what the deal was, but Mark Hunt was furious. Yeah.

Speaker 2 It was obvious when you look at the guy. I mean, he was like 39 years old, 300 pounds, like cutting down at 265.
He's fucking huge, man.

Speaker 1 Yeah, what's even more interesting, too, is the storage of samples. A lot of sports don't actually do it.

Speaker 1 So with Olympic testing, oftentimes the positive test results come retroactively to years in the past.

Speaker 1 So once they've refined the testing and actually are able to detect, you know, long-term metabolites of Tyrannibal or something of that nature.

Speaker 1 But in a lot of sports, like especially in the in the U.S. for like traditional professional sports, they're not storing urine typically.
Right.

Speaker 1 So if you have more refined testing get developed, oftentimes there's no way to actually penalize an athlete who was ahead of the testing curve at the time. Right.
And

Speaker 1 at least from what I've seen, there's a really good paper.

Speaker 1 One of the guys I know who's on the inside on this, his name is Alex Cagliari Turner.

Speaker 1 He has excellent information and studies on this stuff, but he did a paper that basically outlined how I think 75% of the medalists that have tested positive in the Olympics at the Summer Olympic Games for the past, I don't know, it was like a full decade of analyzation.

Speaker 1 It was like 75% of them tested years later, not at the actual time of winning their medal.

Speaker 1 So if they're only being popped, you know, three out of four people are getting popped retroactively over a half decade later or more,

Speaker 1 based on advancements in testing. You can just imagine how many sports are getting away with passing testing, given that retroactively, they're not being tested at all.
Right.

Speaker 1 So it's like if you're ahead of the curve now, there are a lot of sports where as long as you pass the test now, even if what you took had a more refined assay developed, you know, five years from now, they're not going to go get your sample and retry it.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 That makes sense. Yeah.
But wasn't there a famous Russian wrestler who was popped because they went back and looked at his

Speaker 2 old stuff, like once they developed new testing protocols?

Speaker 1 Was it an Olympic assay? Yeah.

Speaker 1 That's why. Because Olympic games, they started storing samples in 2004.

Speaker 1 So they're a bit more rigorous about that. And there are probably some sports that store, but the majority don't.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And it's like, you know, you could say it's corruption or you could say it's, you know, people trying to, the sport trying to cover it up.

Speaker 1 But I think sometimes it's just like budget constraints too, because it's like, you still have to be a profitable enterprise. And

Speaker 1 you know, I don't know how much you can,

Speaker 1 you know, scrutinize the economics on something like that.

Speaker 2 You're also managing at scale, right? Like how many athletes are you dealing with? Yeah. How much time do you have to go back and, you know, review all the different urine samples?

Speaker 1 Yeah. No, but it gets crazy because it kind of highly suggests that in a lot of sports, as long as you're ahead of the curve, you're probably good.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Now, obviously, you have to actually beat the test now, which is more and more rigorous by the year, of course.

Speaker 1 But at least historically, what we've seen is it's the testing usually lags behind the methods that are being developed to get around it.

Speaker 2 Is Is there anything right now that is not being tested for that you think is effective?

Speaker 1 Um,

Speaker 1 yeah, like in general, the most effective stuff is going to be bioidenticals, which are being tested for, but it's like at the scale, it's kind of up for debate because sometimes they don't test at all.

Speaker 1 Like, you know, we saw with USATA, they were barely doing adequate in-depth testing for bioidenticals with no EPO testing or HGH testing.

Speaker 1 So I would say those are probably the go-to's, you know, like EPO especially and HGH.

Speaker 1 There are other compounds that I think some people think they can get away with that sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Like I think it's called trimetazidine.

Speaker 1 There was some like top-level tennis player who just popped like a week ago or something. And what is that?

Speaker 1 It's like an angina medication that the entire China Olympic team got popped for a few years back.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it was like 23 Chinese swimmers before the Tokyo Olympics got popped using this thing. And then they claimed it was like food contamination or something.

Speaker 1 And they were like, oh, that's, I guess that's what happened. And then a bunch of those, two of those athletes won medals in the recent Paris Olympics, and 11 of them were allowed to compete still.

Speaker 2 What does it do?

Speaker 1 It shifts your efficiency of fuel utilization. So basically, in general, to create ATP, your body would oxidize fatty acids as well as glucose.

Speaker 1 And in an endurance event, which is heavily oxygen-sapping, if you can shift, which is what this drug does, it inhibits a process by which your body proportionally oxidizes more glucose than fatty acids, which is a less oxygen-intensive process.

Speaker 1 So you can basically conserve oxygen proportional to the amount of ATP you're producing. So in an endurance event, if you can have more more oxygen for less cost internally,

Speaker 1 then it's highly performance enhancing. Wow.
Or it should be.

Speaker 1 You know, it's kind of speculative as to if it's actually performance enhancing, but it's kind of a weird coincidence how many people have popped for this drug.

Speaker 1 Oh, by the way, you said the first time I was here, you said

Speaker 1 the Russian Olympics, the only people who didn't pop were the figure skaters. Yeah.
Yeah, there was a Russian figure skater who was 15 who was on this angina medication.

Speaker 2 Well, that kind of makes sense, right? Because one thing you would want is more oxygen and endurance when you're figure skating.

Speaker 2 It's pretty cardio intensive when you're spinning around and flying around.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 For sure. But they said that steroids,

Speaker 2 they found that like gross motor skills, you're like, he's so loud, dude. Can you nudge him, keep him from fucking snoring so loud?

Speaker 2 But they found that like testosterone and things along those lines, like actual steroids, it was not good to be stronger as a figure skater, that it didn't enhance.

Speaker 1 But that was was gregory whatever his name was from icarus yeah yeah and like i could see obviously the compound selection will differ greatly depending on what sport because you know there are some sports where

Speaker 1 you know being heavier is going to be problematic right and you might you know want something that could enhance i don't know

Speaker 1 your

Speaker 1 cognitive capacity or whatever it may be or like slow down your heart rate for example for archery or right you know different applications for sure.

Speaker 2 Like beta blockers.

Speaker 1 Yeah, like for archery, for example, things like propranolol, like highly effective. As well as for, you know, public speaking, playing piano publicly.
I think there's like

Speaker 1 famous pianists who use a stroke too.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I've heard of people using beta blockers.

Speaker 1 Snipers, too. Really? Yeah.

Speaker 2 It makes sense, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah. Just dropping that

Speaker 2 anxiety response.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and if it crosses the blood-brain barrier like propranolol does, it actually calms you down very significantly. It's not just about lowering the heart rate it also like

Speaker 1 de-stresses you like it's an anti-anxiety drug essentially wow yeah

Speaker 2 you've never tried it no for archery i'd be wondering if it was uh i thought about doing it once i even asked my doctor about it he was going to get it for me but i was like i don't want to cheat Like half of the bow hunting thing is about being able to keep your shit together.

Speaker 2 And if you could just do it. Yeah.
Like if I could just shoot at a deer the way I'd shoot at a target, I don't think it would be the the same.

Speaker 1 Yeah, fair enough.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's like part of it is like a purist. Yeah, in that regard.
Because part of it is the discipline of managing your mind.

Speaker 2 That's what I like about it.

Speaker 2 I like that it's hard to do. I don't want it to be easier.

Speaker 2 It's fucking hard to do. And that's literally why I like it.
Like, if I could take a drug that would make it easier to do, I don't think I would like it. I'm very effective right now.

Speaker 2 I'm very, I'm real successful at bow hunting, you know, relatively.

Speaker 2 It's a

Speaker 2 if like I go to a lot of really great places to hunt because I have money, I'm fortunate.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 2 relatively speaking, bow hunting is not a successful endeavor. It's like maybe 10% of the hunts, like people get tags, maybe, probably less in most places,

Speaker 2 actually

Speaker 2 harvest an animal.

Speaker 1 How often do you do it?

Speaker 2 I do it twice a year. I go on a big elk hunt and I do like a bunch of pig hunts and stuff like that.
In between that, maybe one deer hunt. hunt.

Speaker 1 And it's like, how intensive of a prep is it? And like the whole process of

Speaker 1 doing the trip. Is it like a multi-day thing?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I go for like a week. The really intensive part, though, is the preparation for it.
And I was going to tell you about this, too, because I actually fuck my body up getting ready for this one.

Speaker 2 So when hunting season approaches, for like three months out of hunting season, I ramp up all my cardio and all my bow, my archery. So I practice in my backyard.
I practice archery.

Speaker 2 I'm shooting at 85 yards. I shoot an 84-pound bow, and I might shoot it 100 times a day.
So I'm pulling 80 pounds, 84 pounds, 100 times in a day. And I'm doing it day after day after day after day.

Speaker 2 I'm doing it five, six days a week. So I was developing like severe pain in my lower back on my right side that led to like sciatica.
And I was also developing some severe neck pain on my right side.

Speaker 2 So, this is, it's all, it's really an unbalanced thing, right?

Speaker 2 Because I really should draw something back with my, I should probably like at least draw back my bow with my left hand as many times as I draw back with my right, but I don't.

Speaker 2 So, you draw back, so I'm pulling, it's 84 pounds to pull it back. It's at least for the beginning of the cycle, and then the cams rotate over and it significantly lowers.

Speaker 2 Like, the holding weight is, I think my holding weight is like 20%,

Speaker 2 20 or 25% of the actual weight of the bow. But what happens is as you're pulling back and you lock it in place, the way archery works is you want to what's called pull at the wall, right?

Speaker 2 So where the string hits the end where it can't pull anymore on a compound bow, I'm pulling hard against that wall so I'm steady, right?

Speaker 2 And then I'm trying to relax this shoulder and pull and I'm stabilizing everything with this lower back, with my lower back muscle.

Speaker 2 So on my right side, it was just getting locked up, like painful and stiff and sore and like hurt even when I walk. And I would just keep going.
I would do it for hours, three hours a day.

Speaker 2 Just hours and hours and hours.

Speaker 2 And I just developed a real problem to the point where like when I was the last trip, when I was going up hills, my, my hips were getting numb, like my glutes weren't firing.

Speaker 2 I was getting sciatic pain. It was pretty bad.
So I knew after hunting season was over, I was going to have to address it.

Speaker 2 So I got some stem cell shots, which definitely helped i started doing a lot of stretching no archery for a couple months a lot of like hard foam like it's i have a from elite flexibility they make like a pvc roller with like a very thin layer so it's very hard and i was doing a lot of rolling rolling in the sauna cold plunge sauna stretching and it was getting a little better slowly but it was brutal like it was taking a long time to recover and then i started doing this thing called new fit and what new fit is is is electrical muscular stimulation while you're going through exercise routines.

Speaker 2 And so they slap these electro pads all over your muscles and fully contract you. And then you go through exercises while you're doing it.
And it's like significantly increased my rehabilitation.

Speaker 2 I've only been doing it for a few weeks, too. I've only been doing it for like three weeks.
All my back pain's gone. Mobility's back.

Speaker 2 No more sciatica at all. No issues at all.

Speaker 2 And everything is like much looser it's like coming back so do you find that more effective than stem cells no I think it's the combination of things it's all it's very hard to tell like what is actually working but when you add one thing and then all of a sudden you get a significant response I'm assuming that this new fit thing is having at least responsible for

Speaker 2 I mean there's some sort of synergistic effect right because I'm using peptides I got this like I said I got stem cells shot into it so this is like a and it takes a a while for the stem cells to take place.

Speaker 2 I'm sure that's part of it. But then this new fit thing is pretty significant.
So I've been doing that quite a lot. I've been doing that four days a week.
And

Speaker 2 it's legit, man. It's really legit.
I know Mike Tyson was using that when he was preparing for the fight with Jake Paul.

Speaker 2 So I know a lot of other athletes use it. A lot of people use it for rehabilitation.

Speaker 2 It's like, it really reduces the amount of time that you have to recover from like surgeries and injuries and stuff like that.

Speaker 1 What else are you using now as part of your nothing new?

Speaker 2 Nothing new.

Speaker 2 Still BPC-157, TB500, you know, IPAMORL and stuff like that. Like the same stuff that I've always used before.
This is the only thing that I've done that's really new, this new fifth.

Speaker 2 Have you ever seen it before? No. See if you can find like some examples of new.
Because like I said, Tyson was using it.

Speaker 1 So it's no more time intensive because it's during training?

Speaker 2 So what you're doing is, so I'm doing it for rehabilitation. So this is what it looks like.
So they slap these electrodes to you.

Speaker 2 So your muscles are just like locked up depending on how much you can tolerate.

Speaker 2 So I get them to crank that fucker up. And when you're doing it, your muscles are like completely flexed through the whole thing.
It's like, it's... kind of painful.

Speaker 2 And then while you're doing that, you're going through all these different exercises.

Speaker 1 Okay, so they're like kind of

Speaker 1 rehabilitative type exercises as opposed to the actual workout that you'd be doing.

Speaker 2 For me, what I'm doing is rehabilitative, but other people do it for hypertrophy.

Speaker 2 And bodybuilders do it apparently to like, say, if you've got like trap issues, like you don't like, you need to have one area where you want to improve.

Speaker 2 They're slapping it to that area and then doing all these exercises.

Speaker 1 Yeah, there was, I,

Speaker 1 an entrepreneur that I'm friends with asked me what I thought about it as like a replacement for exercise.

Speaker 2 Oh, just a replacement?

Speaker 1 Yeah, and it was like such like a rich person question. Like, how do I not go to the gym and still like go to the gym?

Speaker 2 There was a place in Boston when I lived there in the 80s that had that. I forget what it was called, but you would basically go there.

Speaker 2 And their claim was they would get you, you'd have a six-pack, you get jacked, and all you have to do is lay there.

Speaker 2 You lay there, and they put these electrodes on you. Just, ah!

Speaker 1 Have you ever seen those like ancient

Speaker 1 like belly shaking things for like women to lose bodies?

Speaker 2 Like back in the 40s, they just sit there shaking back and forth.

Speaker 1 No, I'm sure it's more effective than that, obviously, which did nothing, but I don't think it's a replacement.

Speaker 1 And I would imagine, I would speculate that the time it would take to stimulate yourself, if it's for hypertrophy, if you just worked out more, you'd probably get better results. Perhaps.

Speaker 2 the idea is that it's enhancing you past what you would normally get because you're in this very unique state of constant contraction. Yeah.
So there's no contract, relax, contract, relax.

Speaker 2 You are just contracted. You're just,

Speaker 2 and then you're going through all these exercises. So you have to kind of force your way through the exercises while you're contracted.
It's kind of difficult.

Speaker 1 I think if you were injured, it probably has a lot of viability, but I would be highly suspect of it being used for like a guy trying to break a plateau who is a veteran lifter, for example.

Speaker 2 Right, right, right. Yeah, I would agree.

Speaker 1 And no bodybuilders I know attribute any success to something like this. Right.

Speaker 2 Well, this guy was telling me that some bodybuilders use it to target areas that they like of having difficulty, like maybe your calves.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Like people have a difficult time growing calf muscles.

Speaker 1 Most

Speaker 1 biggest nuisance of a body part genetically.

Speaker 2 It's calf. Well, look at John Jones.

Speaker 1 That's the choice thing.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Like one of the best kickers in the sport.
No calves. They're like non-existent.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's so genetically predetermined seemingly that you'll have guys who are top Olympia caliber bodybuilders.

Speaker 1 And if they haven't had calves for their whole career, they don't suddenly develop them, even though they obviously know how to train.

Speaker 1 And then people will shit on them and say, you have no calves, bro. Like, learn how to train.
It's like, this is my job. Like, do you think I don't know how to do a fucking calf raise?

Speaker 2 But they just won't grow?

Speaker 1 Yeah, like, proportionally so. They lag behind significantly.
And it's pretty obvious when somebody has a lagging body part when they're on stage.

Speaker 1 But it is, like, a very, very

Speaker 1 difficult area to locally.

Speaker 1 You know, if you don't have the genetics for it and the muscle bellies, it's very difficult to make

Speaker 1 a bad looking calf look good.

Speaker 2 It's weird because you get to go like John where everything else is pretty big. You know, he's got big chest, big arms.

Speaker 1 And this is not to say don't train calves because people get all riled up about, you know, skipping leg days and stuff.

Speaker 2 Well, especially for performance. You know, like you certainly need strong calf muscles for performance so you can make them stronger.
They just don't necessarily get aesthetically pleasing.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and there's definitely ways to optimally train them that maybe not everyone does. But in general, like it seems like if they're lagging behind for you, it's pretty difficult to bring them up.

Speaker 1 That's weird. What a weird body part.
Yeah, yeah. It's like one of the worst offenders.

Speaker 2 Is there anything else like that? Any other body parts that are like notoriously difficult to train?

Speaker 1 That's a good question.

Speaker 1 Probably.

Speaker 1 There's probably something that I'm not thinking of. I don't know.

Speaker 1 Neck maybe, but that's pretty easy to train, actually. It's just not many people do it.

Speaker 2 Well, with the neck, you got to be careful, though.

Speaker 2 You know, I use an iron neck, which I really believe in. It's like the only thing that I've ever done that's strengthened my neck and not caused me any neck problems.

Speaker 2 Whereas I think those other ones, like, you know, those things where you put like the leather helmet on with the chain.

Speaker 2 I think that's an unusual movement for your neck. And I think you could probably get away with it.
I know a lot of wrestlers, including Mike Tyson, who fuck their neck up from neck bridges.

Speaker 1 Have you seen the F1 drivers? Workout routines? No. Dude, pull up.

Speaker 2 Oh, they would have to have crazy necks.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. That's like what they do do for their training mostly, seemingly.
Oh, you have to. They're just sitting there with like a giant fucking contraption on their head.
Just like,

Speaker 2 like an iron neck.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
But it's like, it seems even more intensive. Like, it's.

Speaker 2 Let's see. Yeah, but see, what I'm saying is they're not bending the neck, right? So what they're doing is they're forcing their muscles to stabilize the neck as they're facing resistance, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah. But what they're not doing is bending all the way down and bending all the way up with weight, which I think is what's unusual.
And I think that's just a weird strain on the discs.

Speaker 2 And with a lot of guys,

Speaker 2 especially wrestlers, where they get strain from is like someone grabbing them with a collar tie and like pulling their head down and they get it real low and then they're resisting that.

Speaker 2 You can fuck your neck up that way or fighting off a guillotine or a Darse choke or a triangle where you're like really fucked up and distorted and you're resisting against it.

Speaker 2 You can fuck your neck up.

Speaker 2 So what the iron neck does that I really like is you're rotating and you can adjust the resistance on the rotation. So, you have this halo, you put it on your head, you pump it like a Reebok pump,

Speaker 2 and it like form fits to your head. You put a chin strap on, and then you back up.
And so, it's got a bungee cord, so a very stiff rubber cord.

Speaker 2 And as you're pulling back, you have a lot of resistance this way, and then you could rotate, and then on the rotation, you could adjust the resistance, you can make it more difficult, but you're never doing any of this stuff and i think this stuff is where at least from what i've seen people get hurt especially neck bridges neck bridges where your whole body oh i can imagine you're doing all this and you're rolling like tyson you ever seen tyson's neck bridge routine when he was younger no well tyson had a 20 inch neck yeah 20 inches you know how crazy that is his neck would start at the top of his head when he was young i mean he had a fucking massive neck but it's one of the reasons why he was also so good at taking a punch because his head didn't snap around.

Speaker 2 Like, look how look at his neck when he was young. That neck is crazy, dude.
That's crazy.

Speaker 1 Parallel with his head.

Speaker 2 Yeah, like, see, look at it. This is what he would do every day in training.

Speaker 1 Holy shit, that looks

Speaker 1 rough.

Speaker 2 But this wrestler bridge does strengthen your neck, but at a cost. And I don't think it's at a cost for everybody.

Speaker 2 I think it probably can be done safely, but I think you probably have to scale up very slowly and very carefully and make sure that you have the supporting tissue and strength around that to not compromise your discs you know like when you're in these weird positions like you're never supposed to have all you know at least bridging with like 60% of your weight sideways on your neck like this and then roll it over to the side and then roll it over the side while you're putting all the weight on the back of your head or on your forehead that's just crazy that's yeah oh yeah i would uh that looks fucking sketch dude yeah well mike had to get neck surgery yoel romero like I said, had his whole neck fused.

Speaker 2 His neck doesn't, you ever see him run?

Speaker 1 No, but it probably looks hilarious.

Speaker 2 Find the video of Yoel Romero sprinting. It's nuts.
His neck doesn't move. It's like this.

Speaker 2 Like a robot. Like a Terminator.
But it's also why Yoel can take crazy punishment. Like, Yoel got headkicked once by, I think it was Derek Brunson headkicked him, and he didn't even move.

Speaker 2 Like, look at him run.

Speaker 2 So his neck doesn't move. His entire neck is completely fused.
And he has this giant scar on the back of his neck.

Speaker 2 He is a freak, though, dude.

Speaker 1 Did you ever get the impression that if he just like threw himself into the fire more in fights, he probably would have won a lot more?

Speaker 2 I don't know. I don't know if you could keep that kind of muscle mass and have the kind of cardio that you need to throw yourself into the fire more.

Speaker 1 Because it was always, it was kind of hard to tell if he was gassed sometimes. Right.
And then he would all of a sudden burst out.

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 1 Like that Costa Romero fight is still to this day one of my favorite fights ever.

Speaker 1 And I don't know, man.

Speaker 1 Like it almost, a lot of the Romero fights, it seems like if he just started swinging and going in there, that he might be able to take out a lot of dudes that he just let go to decision.

Speaker 2 Perhaps, but you have to like know how much gas you have in the tank, and only he knows. And that style that he has is a style for someone who's very explosive.
It's very smart.

Speaker 2 Because you don't just explode and keep going. You won't last.
You last two minutes and then you'll be dead. So what he does is like

Speaker 2 he looks like so relaxed and then he explodes on you.

Speaker 2 And when he explodes on people, they don't see it coming because he's lulled you into this false sense of security by this slower speed that he moves at.

Speaker 2 Like, did you ever see his knockout of Chris Wideman?

Speaker 1 Probably.

Speaker 2 That's the perfect example of that. He caught Chris Wideman with a flying knee as Chris Wideman was coming in for a takedown.
He just like lulled him into, like, this is the speed we're moving at.

Speaker 2 We're going to move at this speed. This is how we're fighting.
Oh, I'm dodging your punches. Oh, I'm dodging.
Ah!

Speaker 2 And then out of nowhere, bam he hits him with his flying knee and just destroys his head I mean it was one of the most brutal watch this

Speaker 2 so see how he like moves boom oh my god yeah I mean literally his whole body fire back it up again so we can see that one more time

Speaker 2 like before it happens

Speaker 2 so they're fighting he's got him on the ground oh so here it is so you see as he moves he's not boom he just leaps into him this is like a highlight thing It's not showing the whole exchange.

Speaker 2 But in the fight, you know, Wideman's very aggressive, very tough, and, you know, pushing a pace, trying to get the takedowns. Wideman likes to push a strong pace and really wear on guys.

Speaker 2 And Yoel just would like, kind of like move and relax.

Speaker 2 And then out of nowhere, he would just blow on you. And that's what he did with Adesanya, too.
Like, that was a very boring fight because Adesanya is like, I see your fucking game.

Speaker 2 I'm going to stay out here and wait for you to charge in on me. I'm going to counterattack.
And Yoel was like, come on, come fight me. And he's like, oh, I know what you're doing.

Speaker 2 Because he exploded one time and caught Izzy with a left hand, like a powerful left hand. And Izzy's like, oh, Jesus Christ.
This guy moves so fucking fast when he wants to.

Speaker 2 But he can't really fight like that for five minutes for five rounds. He can't really just keep exploding.
That's like the problem with a guy like Conor McGregor.

Speaker 2 Like Conor McGregor was lethal for one or two rounds. But then you get into the third, fourth, and fifth.
There's so much fast twitch muscle fiber engagement. There's so much explosion.

Speaker 2 It's like constant sprinting.

Speaker 1 Yeah, has he ever knocked out a guy after round two even?

Speaker 2 That's a good question. I don't know.
I mean, he certainly could, right? I mean, he's not out of shape.

Speaker 1 I remember what you're saying, though. It was like the later rounds.
It was so blatant. He was gasped.

Speaker 2 Well, he was so fast in the first couple of rounds. That was the thing.
It's like, if he didn't...

Speaker 2 Fucking tune you up in those first couple rounds if you were like Nate Diaz some indestructible zombie and then you get into the later rounds and you're fucking like how is this guy still here and then nate is just like slapping you and beating you up and nate can push that 50 pace forever yeah him and his brother were very good at that they didn't really explode they just would like touch you they'll just touch you all the time and you can't breathe because you don't have the time to relax right so if he's constantly hitting you with punches that aren't that hard you're like because you're always like

Speaker 2 because you don't know if these punches are going to be hard and then he occasionally would mix them up with like really hard shots. And so you always have to be ready for the hard shot.

Speaker 2 So you never get to breathe. You never get to relax.
So you're constantly on edge. And you're just getting worn out.
And he's relaxed because he's just hitting you and touching you.

Speaker 2 And he's talking shit to you. What, bitch? What, bitch? What's going on, bitch? And he keeps hitting you this like 50%, like literally like this.
Not really trying to hurt you at all.

Speaker 2 Just constantly making you tense up and just drain your gas tank.

Speaker 1 They seem relentless.

Speaker 2 Oh, dude. Well, his cardio, Nick Niaz, especially, his cardio was insanity.
He swam back from Alcatraz. He did it on fire.
This episode is brought to you by Activision.

Speaker 1 You know me.

Speaker 2 I love a bit of action. That's why I'm excited to tell you that Call of Duty Black Ops 7 is out now.
And let me tell you, this game is the biggest Black Ops ever.

Speaker 2 If you're into intense action, strategic gameplay, and just straight up kicking ass, this is it. Kicking ass? Sounds like that's right up my alley.

Speaker 2 Black Ops 7 drops you right into three massive modes. First, you've got the co-op campaign where you can team up with your buddies to tackle some serious missions.
Then the multiplayer.

Speaker 2 It's explosive. 18 maps that keep the fights fresh and the stakes high.
And zombies.

Speaker 2 Oh boy, this is the best zombie mode yet, featuring a brand new drivable wonder vehicle that completely changes the game.

Speaker 2 Seriously, whether you're a hardcore gamer or just want to jump into some crazy action, Black Ops 7 delivers. Call of Duty, Black Ops 7 is available now.
Rated M for mature.

Speaker 2 This episode is brought to you by Visible. When your phone plans as good as Visible, you've got to tell your people.

Speaker 2 It's the ultimate wireless hack to save money and still get great coverage and a reliable connection.

Speaker 2 Get one-line wireless with unlimited data and hotspot for $25 a month, taxes and fees included, all on Verizon's 5G network.

Speaker 2 Plus, now for a limited time, new members can get the visible plan for just $19 a month for the first 26 months. Use promo code switch26 and save beyond the season.

Speaker 2 It's a deal so good, you're going to want to tell your people. Switch now at visible.com/slash Rogan.
Terms apply, limited time offers subject to change.

Speaker 2 See visible.com for planned features and network management details. Five different occasions.

Speaker 2 In the ocean with great white sharks, swim, what is it, like a mile and a half or something like that in the fucking freezing cold Pacific Northwest Ocean?

Speaker 1 I don't know.

Speaker 2 How far is Alcatraz? How far is this swim? They used to think you couldn't do it. They used to think no one could survive it.
So that's why they put Alcatraz there. Like, put a prison out there.

Speaker 2 They're fucked. But a couple of guys did escape, and they don't know what happened to them.
They found their clothes at the beach. And there's speculation that at least one guy survived it.

Speaker 2 But how are you going to train?

Speaker 2 You can't train to swim, and then you're going to just swim for a mile and a half. Yeah.
You're not going to make it.

Speaker 1 I don't know.

Speaker 1 What's cardio regimens in prison? I would have no idea.

Speaker 2 I mean, you could do cardio, but you're not going to recreate swimming without swimming. The resistance, the current, like all of it.

Speaker 1 And temperature regulation. Yeah.

Speaker 2 You're just not going to be able to recreate that unless you're doing it. And they're not going to let you practice.
Like, guys, I'm just going to do laughs around Alcatraz.

Speaker 2 Like, get the fuck out of here. How far is it, Jamie? Mile and a half.
So a mile and a half in the fucking ocean with sharks.

Speaker 1 When was this that these prisoners escaped? Like, was this decades ago?

Speaker 2 Was that a Clinicewood movie? Escape from Alcatraz. Did you see it? No.
No, it was a movie about the actual escape from Alcatraz.

Speaker 2 These guys had made a paper-mâché model of their face and like put it, like with, put some pillows and shit and threw a blanket over it.

Speaker 2 And the guards, when they would go to check, thought these guys were still in their bed. Meanwhile, they had tunneled a hole through the wall

Speaker 2 of the cell.

Speaker 2 1979 film Escape from Alcatraz presented inconclusive conclusions. What does that mean?

Speaker 2 One of the island's enduring mysteries told the true story of three men, Frank Morris and the brothers Clarence and John Algin

Speaker 2 Anglin,

Speaker 2 who made it out of the prison in June of 1962, were never seen again. Nobody knows for sure whether they made good on their escape or drowned in the attempt.

Speaker 2 True stories like that and others embellished tales of man-eating sharks and killer currents spread by prison guards as a deterrent contributed to the mythology of unassailable Alcatraz and the impossible swim.

Speaker 2 Well, it's definitely not impossible because Nick Diaz has done it five fucking times. But people do it all the time now.
You know, it's like an endurance thing that people constantly do, no?

Speaker 4 Someone did it 979 times.

Speaker 2 This guy.

Speaker 1 Whoa!

Speaker 1 He does it monthly.

Speaker 2 Oh my God, what a fucking psycho. 979 times? That That is rolling the dice on sharks, bro.

Speaker 1 And what happens when you

Speaker 1 like Alcatraz is

Speaker 1 still operating? No. No.
No.

Speaker 2 Okay. No, it wasn't operating.

Speaker 1 Oh, it's like a tourist attraction, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah. When I was a kid, we went to visit it with school.

Speaker 2 When I lived in San Francisco, they took us to Alcatraz. It's like a field trip.
It was pretty cool. You get to be in these prisons where all these people used to.

Speaker 1 It's very weird.

Speaker 1 Why did it shut down?

Speaker 2 I don't know. It's a good question.
Why'd they shut Alcatraz down? Maybe when they figured out people could swim it.

Speaker 1 That would be a good reason.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean.

Speaker 1 It's not unassailable.

Speaker 2 It's got to take a long time, though. Like, how in a mile and a half in the ocean? How long does that take?

Speaker 3 Some people think it was because those guys got away, but it was because it was too expensive to continue operating.

Speaker 2 That makes sense, right? You got to get all the supplies and out there by boat, by ferry.

Speaker 3 I don't even think they had that many prisoners there.

Speaker 1 Hmm. Like, you know.

Speaker 2 But they had, like, super dangerous ones there, right? Wasn't that the whole idea? It was all murderers.

Speaker 1 I think it was like a

Speaker 2 super maximum security, like for the biggest psychos. You put them on Alcatraz.

Speaker 1 Yeah, what was that movie? I think Sean Connery movie as well.

Speaker 1 The rock, yeah. Yeah, that's about that, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah. I think.
Yeah. Yeah, I think that was about it too.
Yeah, but you know, guys who have extreme cardio, like that, that's a real weapon. Like,

Speaker 2 like, power is important in the well, it's always important, but cardio is one of the most important things because you just when you get tired, you don't think right.

Speaker 2 You don't have you don't make good decisions, and then you also you you just you're just not as effective.

Speaker 2 You're not gonna scramble out of positions, you're gonna relax a little, try to catch your breath. Like if you get taken down, you're not gonna like completely exert.
Chuckledale said this to me once.

Speaker 2 He said, when guys get taken down, they accept the takedown. And the thing is, they get taken down and then they try to work their way back up to their feet.
He goes, I never did that.

Speaker 2 When I got taken down, the moment my back touched the ground, it was like hot lava, and I just exploded immediately. I never let them hold me.

Speaker 2 And that is the key to never getting taken down and held down. Is that the moment? He's a really good wrestler as well, obviously.
But the moment someone would take him down, he would never accept it.

Speaker 2 He would just, some guys accept it, like, fuck, I got taken down.

Speaker 2 All right, you know, overhook, underhook, you know, like control posture, work my full guard, try to get back up, try to bide time where I have enough energy to escape and figure out, am I going to try to sweep him?

Speaker 2 Am I going to, you know, am I going to try to pummel and try to get back up to my feet? Am I going to try to scoot back to the cage? A bunch of different strategies to try to get back up.

Speaker 2 But the thing is, like, when you're tired, you'll accept that takedown. And when you see guys accept the takedown and just pull full guard, like that guy's fucking tired.

Speaker 1 You know? It was like the recent Oliveira fight. It was like tough to watch some of the parts where it was just like, oh, it's, you you know, you're on the ground now and you're fucked.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 Well, that fight was crazy, huh? Yeah, when Michael Chandler almost fucking had him in that fifth round, yeah, almost had him. I mean, what a relentless motherfucker that guy is.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, he was getting his ass kicked for four rounds and then finally almost fucks him up.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, it's uh crazy when it comes down to like you know, do or die mode, how many times it almost turns around.

Speaker 2 Well, it's also crazy that a guy like him, who is pretty heavily muscled and is just such a fucking training machine, that he has that ultimate gas tank even in the fifth round, just explode.

Speaker 2 Like in the fifth round, he was going hard, which is why I always thought he was a super dangerous fight for Connor.

Speaker 1 Yeah, he almost seems like a better cardio, like Sean Shirk or something. Right.

Speaker 2 Well, Sean Shirk was one of the first guys who really did have crazy cardio.

Speaker 1 Did he? I thought he was so.

Speaker 2 For the time. Okay.
He was a fitness fanatic, like a conditioning fanatic. But, like, so was

Speaker 2 there was a few guys, like, Rich Franklin was like a fitness fanatic, too. Like, they dedicated a significant amount of their time just to strengthen conditioning.

Speaker 2 So, they had this, like, ultimate gas tank. But, like, with Rich Franklin, the problem was his skill level was never going to compete with Anderson Silva.
Anderson Silva was just a god at the time.

Speaker 2 I mean, in his prime, and he was like 34 years old. He was fucking unstoppable.

Speaker 1 He was just so athleticism differential between everyone and him was like obscene.

Speaker 2 It was skill too. It's like he had the ability to let punches get right here and he would just move his head slightly and then bang, crack you.

Speaker 2 Well as you, all your momentum is coming in and he would counter you. And he was just so skillful and he was like a computer.

Speaker 2 He would the first minute of the round, first fight, like first round of the fight, you would see him moving around and just like trying things on you and just sort of downloading your movements and what you're capable of he would see you swing like okay I got that okay I'll do a little of this I'll kick him a couple of times and then by the end of the round he's like okay motherfucker and then you would see him like like the Yushinokami fight is a great example that by the end of the first round he head kicks Okami and drops him he just starts tuning him up.

Speaker 2 He's just, he gets, he gets what you can do. He's like, you can't do it.
I do. And then he just starts turning it on.

Speaker 1 Yeah, some of those fights back in the day just felt like a taking time bomb for whoever he was facing. Yep.

Speaker 2 People forget. The thing about fighters when they fight past their prime is you get these guys like Anderson that fight into their 40s, and you remember them from their later fights.

Speaker 2 You don't remember them when they were unstoppable. Like when Anderson was in his prime, he's one of the greatest fighters that's ever lived.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, for sure. Have you seen that UFC interview where they like accidentally showed...
I think it was like HGH in the background.

Speaker 2 He opened his fridge. What are you eating? Oh, I'm eating growth.

Speaker 1 He's pop for some dumb shit, too, if I recall correctly.

Speaker 2 Well, did you ever see his coach, his weightlifting coach?

Speaker 1 Probably when I was looking into it, but I'm assuming he's yoked up.

Speaker 2 The dude was like 65 years old and built like Joel Romero.

Speaker 1 Oh, my God.

Speaker 2 See if you can find Anderson Silva's strength and conditioning coach. I mean, there was no way.
There's just no way. That guy knows what to take.

Speaker 2 There's no way.

Speaker 2 He was in his 60s. fucking jacked i mean just super jacked like that's him oh jesus yeah

Speaker 1 look at henderson's face it's a perfect picture

Speaker 2 i mean look at that dude that dude's in his 60s mean muggin yeah

Speaker 2 tainted supplements likely cause a failed test not what's in my fridge

Speaker 1 Look at the size of that guy in his 60s.

Speaker 2 So obviously, he knows what to take.

Speaker 1 yeah that guy knows some stuff so chandler you said good match for connor is that ever happening or i don't know if connor's ever gonna fight again what's happening with his uh he just got like

Speaker 2 the civil suit yeah or whatever and he's being dropped by all his yeah companies or something yeah um you know i don't know the real details of that case i know his version of it and her version of it and what played out in the court but the the reality is that guy's partying and he's partying real hard.

Speaker 2 And he talked about it in the court case. You know, he's talking about cocaine.
Like, that was the whole thing that we're all doing cocaine, and we're fucking.

Speaker 1 Dude, some of his interviews, you can tell he is out of it.

Speaker 2 Allegedly. He seems at least excited.

Speaker 1 Dude, have you seen the Jake Jalen all and Connor interview for Roadhouse? And he's just fucking tweaking the whole time.

Speaker 2 He seems like he's fucking.

Speaker 1 And Jake's just like.

Speaker 1 I can't imagine he wasn't thinking, what are you doing, dude? Right. Right.

Speaker 2 You know, it's funny. Shane Gillis has a great bit about Conor McGregor in Roadhouse.
He goes, Conor Greger basically played a coked out Connor McGregor in Roadhouse.

Speaker 2 And Shane does like a Connor impression. So it's fucking hilarious.

Speaker 1 Like, ah, fucking.

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 2 he likes Coke.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 But I think there's another issue to talk about, and that is that

Speaker 2 A lot of fighters, when they've sustained a significant amount of damage over the course of their career, career, and there's no way to not get that, right? I mean,

Speaker 2 we've all seen Connor getting beat up and knocked out. We've seen Connor's sparring footage.
He spars pro-boxers. He's sparring elite fighters.
You're getting hit in the head a lot.

Speaker 2 And a lot of fighters, especially towards the end of their career, turn to drugs.

Speaker 2 And I think there's probably like a constant state of discomfort that they live in where their dopamine levels are all fucked up. Their cortisol levels are all fucked up.

Speaker 2 Their body's just, you're not supposed to get punched in the head a thousand times a year. It's just not supposed to happen.
And that's the reality of consistent training.

Speaker 2 So if you think about consistent training, like say you and me are sparring, and we meet at the gym three times a week, and we spar three times a week.

Speaker 2 And let's say we spar five rounds, three times a week, five rounds of five minutes each.

Speaker 2 You might hit me 15, 20 times around,

Speaker 2 and then we're doing that three times a week, and we're doing that over and over and over again. And it's not even, this is the thing.
People say, oh, you spar light. Sure, sure.

Speaker 2 Sparring light is important. But subconcussive trauma to the head is what causes soccer players to get CTE.

Speaker 2 Now, soccer players are getting CTE from a soccer ball. I've bounced a soccer ball.
I played soccer when I was a kid.

Speaker 1 That doesn't hurt.

Speaker 2 But that, that thump, that's giving you CTE. People who ride jet skis get CTE.
Wow. Do you know that? No, I didn't.

Speaker 2 My friend Mark Gordon, who is an expert in traumatic brain injury, and he works at the Wounded Warrior Foundation. I think he works with them, but he works, oh, Angel Warrior Foundation.

Speaker 2 He works with a lot of veterans that suffer from CTE and uses a lot of hormone replacement to help them because a lot of it is damage to the pituitary gland.

Speaker 2 Your endocrine system gets fucked up from breaches, explosions, blown up in IEDs, all those kind of things.

Speaker 2 Those guys are fucked. Like the inside of their brain is fucked.
And there's a bunch of different therapies they apply to that. But the bottom line is that it's not just getting knocked out.

Speaker 2 It's just getting thumped a lot.

Speaker 2 Just thumped and trained. So if we're sparring, you know, we're friends.
If we were sparring, I wouldn't hit you hard.

Speaker 1 I'd hit you like that.

Speaker 2 I wouldn't try to kill you. I'd hit you like that.
But that over and over again,

Speaker 2 you're going to get brain damage. Fact.

Speaker 2 No if, ands, or buts about it. You're going to get brain damage.

Speaker 2 And if you're doing that over the course of a 10, 15 year career, think about all those camps, all those rounds, all those times you sparred. And not just spar that way.

Speaker 2 How many collisions I've been, you know, times I've been... collided with doing jiu-jitsu.

Speaker 2 You accidentally butt heads, you accidentally take a knee to the head, you accidentally take an elbow to the head. It's constant.

Speaker 2 So you've got consistent trauma to your fucking dome over and over and over again. And then you get a little bit of coke, a little bit of coke,

Speaker 2 and you're feeling good again.

Speaker 2 I bet, you know, you get addicted to it. And the guy obviously likes extreme things, right? Which is why he's such a great fighter.
They're wild people. It's why John Jones liked cocaine, too.

Speaker 2 They're fucking wild people. They want to fight.
You know, they want to fight in a cage for a living. That's how they literally feed themselves by beating the fuck out of skilled people.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I can imagine some of like the brain cell death that literally occurs could almost result in a perpetual state of you now need drugs to achieve like baseline even to feel normal. Yeah.

Speaker 1 There's a drug I didn't mention earlier, but it's worth mentioning. You said what's not being tested for that's useful.
In fighters, something called cerebrolysin.

Speaker 1 is used to offset brain damage after fights and not being tested for by water yet. And how does it work?

Speaker 1 It's like one of the only sources of active ngf and bdnf that you can actually get an effect out of seemingly so like brain-derived uh forget what the nf sensor but it's something that could be um

Speaker 1 basically uh

Speaker 1 grow new brain cells essentially whoa yeah or offset deterioration as well during after fighting why would you not let people take that that seems like that should be standard that should be given to everybody like vitamins yeah yeah It's the pipeline of it getting through a clinical, like getting a clinical application.

Speaker 1 It's still in experimental phases. So I could see why it hasn't been getting widespread recognition.
And for all we know, it's not going to prove to be super effective, but at least anecdotally.

Speaker 1 from people I know who've used it, highly effective for neurogenesis.

Speaker 2 Yeah, what about somebody who doesn't have brain damage, just wants to get really smart?

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, tough call.

Speaker 2 I think that might work, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah, a lot of people, even nowadays, are exposing themselves to things that make them stupider, too. So it might even become, you know, an adjunct kind of like preventative therapy.
Right.

Speaker 2 Yeah, sure.

Speaker 1 And it's like sometimes not even purposefully that you're doing things that make you stupider. It's just like...

Speaker 2 Like, what kind of things would you describe?

Speaker 1 I don't know. Like, if you have kids, you're never getting good sleep.
Or you're somebody who's constantly on stimulants, which you could argue is, you know, bad lifestyle or whatever.

Speaker 1 But there are certain things that are going to kill brain cells and just aging in general.

Speaker 2 Have you seen the studies on creatine and performance with sleep deprivation?

Speaker 1 That's interesting.

Speaker 1 Another thing that not being tested for, which I don't think it should be, but like creatine at adequate doses, interestingly, for years we've all been told take your five grams and you're good.

Speaker 1 But what's often not talked about is the fact that that dosage is not going to be widespread, the optimal one for every single person.

Speaker 1 You will likely achieve muscle saturation with that dose, but it doesn't mean you're going to get the full suite of benefits depending on your genetics, how much you weigh, muscle mass, metabolism. So

Speaker 2 five grams for a 140-pound person versus a 240-pound person.

Speaker 1 Yeah, so like some studies have found increased benefits up to like 20 grams a day. Whoa.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And if your GI can tolerate it, like it could be worth trying to see if you get an effect out of, you know, 10 grams and then elevate from there. Do you take it? Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 I take it in gummy form.

Speaker 1 That's hard to get an adequate dose, though. How is that?

Speaker 1 Well, how many gummies do you need to take to get five grams? I take six.

Speaker 2 It says take three. I take six.
Well, let's see what the dose is. Go to try create.
Yeah,

Speaker 3 I take those two.

Speaker 1 It's 1.5 per gummy, I think.

Speaker 2 Okay, so I'm taking seven, eight.

Speaker 1 So some of the most recent studies are in like elderly women taking 20 grams. Whoa.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 I'll start doing that.

Speaker 1 Start with like 10. See if your GI tolerates it.
I have no problem with creatine.

Speaker 2 I used to think it made my face fat, but I think I was just eating too much.

Speaker 1 I think one of the problems with gummies is oftentimes they're less likely to meet label claims so oh really i don't know if that's like a third-party rigorously tested product or not but interesting something to be cautious of right and then there's two types right there's creatine monohydrate and then there's another creatine what is the other one there's different formats but some are like hcl is essentially just bound to um HCL instead of monohydrate, which could be more tolerable for somebody who gets GI distress from monohydrate.

Speaker 1 Thought to be, you know, water solubility and other things. But in general, monohydrate is the one that has the most literature supporting it.
It's tried and true. It's cheaper, easier to access.

Speaker 2 Isn't there some other stuff, H something that you take in combination with it?

Speaker 1 Betane, HCl, maybe.

Speaker 2 Wow, HMN? What the hell is that?

Speaker 1 HMB?

Speaker 2 HMB. Yeah, that's it.
That's it. What is that?

Speaker 1 That's, I believe, a metabolite of leucine, which is like very,

Speaker 1 basically stimulates mTOR.

Speaker 1 So it could be useful for, I think, people who are not getting a sufficient amount of protein in their diet and need something to stimulate mTOR for adequate muscle protein synthesis.

Speaker 1 So, like, I don't know, older people who don't get enough protein, for example. Right.
It has shown efficacy.

Speaker 1 It's just the situations and contextually where it is the most effective is going to be somebody who is not eating enough protein. But it's like how many people are eating enough protein as well.

Speaker 1 Right. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Some studies have found that, you know, upwards of one gram per pound of body weight per day could be beneficial and most people aren't getting that.

Speaker 2 My diet is almost entirely protein. Yeah.
Yeah. My diet is mostly meat.

Speaker 1 It's pretty fucking hard to get your body weight and protein per day if you're not supplementing with protein. You're just eating meat and like animal-derived sources.

Speaker 1 And then even harder if you're a vegetarian, too.

Speaker 2 If you're just eating meat and animal-derived sources, it's hard.

Speaker 1 I think for a lot of people to get high-quality, just like if you're going to eat over, I don't know, a pound and a half to two pounds of meat a day, like you could hit your needs pretty easily.

Speaker 1 Oh, I do that easy. Yeah, but that's not like a typical person, I would say.

Speaker 2 That's most, most of my meals are meat. Okay.
Like my breakfast today, I ate like a pound of elk. Yeah.
That was my breakfast. So what I do is I meal prep for the week on Sunday.

Speaker 2 So I'll take out of my freezer, I take a bunch of elk steaks

Speaker 2 and I put them on the Traeger.

Speaker 2 I slow cook them at like 265 degrees until I get them to the proper internal temperature and then I sear them, I cut them up, and then I put them in like a glass container and put them in my refrigerator and then I pull it out whenever I want to eat.

Speaker 1 So you have how much meat per day?

Speaker 2 Multiple pounds.

Speaker 1 Multiple? Yeah. Cooked weight.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 I probably eat at least three pounds of meat a day.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you might be getting, I forget how many pounds of meat you need to saturate creatine stores or at least the equivalent of five grams, but you'd probably still benefit from trying supplementing more well i do take those gummies like i said i take six of those a day but maybe i'm i get the powder bro i'm gonna take 20 gummies see what happens let's see what happens half your calories gummies and breast meat yeah let's see what's up they don't seem to make you uh they don't they don't upset my stomach at all it makes you wonder if there's actually anything creatine in it then wow i've never had uh upset stomach from creatine i've taken it in the past but i'm taking it now more consistently than i've ever taken it before because with the gummies it's so easy.

Speaker 2 I keep it in the gym. I just bust it open.
Yeah. Eat some of them.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 They taste good too.

Speaker 1 One of the most slept-on supplements for sure. I think it kind of got,

Speaker 1 I don't know, like not as much attention as it deserves. Maybe more recently it's gotten a bit more hype because of some of the literature around its cognitive effects and whatnot.

Speaker 1 But it's like super useful for... a myriad of things.

Speaker 2 What is the mechanism for it giving you a cognitive enhancing benefit?

Speaker 1 I think it's thought to be like local energy production in the brain. So some people genetically or as they age or what have you have deficiencies in the capacity to produce ATP.

Speaker 1 And if you can like backfill it with like a readily available source of phosphocreatine, then you could basically get it to baseline of where it should be.

Speaker 2 It makes you wonder, like people that are on a vegan diet, like what what are their creatine levels like?

Speaker 1 Oh, not good enough for sure.

Speaker 2 There's no way, right? No, it's impossible.

Speaker 1 Even if you're somebody who eats a lot of meat, you might think you're good, but unless you're eating multiple pounds a day, it's unlikely that you've saturated stores.

Speaker 2 Well, that's like one of the more insidious things about these people that are

Speaker 2 proselytizers who are trying to get people to become vegan. And one of the things that they say is it'll improve your athletic performance, which is like straight horseshit.

Speaker 2 Like, I don't know of any elite athlete at the very top of any sport that's a vegan. Do you?

Speaker 1 No. I know some IFBB pros who are vegan, but

Speaker 1 they do a lot to optimize their diets that requires like special protein supplements and this and that.

Speaker 2 And a massive amount of steroids.

Speaker 1 Yeah, a lot of them are dope, too.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that helps.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 There are definitely successful,

Speaker 1 like people who thrive, I think, doing vegan diets, but oftentimes it is more meticulous in the planning needed to like actually make it so you could thrive on it, as opposed to like, if you're eating enough red meat and whatnot, like you sort of, you can be stupid and still cover your bases, essentially.

Speaker 1 Right. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So the difference between one thing is like if someone say, well, a pound of broccoli will equal, you know, X amount of steak in terms of the amount of protein that's, but it's not the same bioavailability.

Speaker 1 Yeah, like the amino acid composition is not going to be the same and it might not even stimulate muscle protein synthesis to the capacity that is needed to actually be anabolic.

Speaker 1 So, like some vegans, I would assume, might actually benefit from supplementing with like essential amino acids on top of their meals just because they're not hitting a leucine threshold. Right.

Speaker 1 So, and that's where like an HMB also could maybe have use as well.

Speaker 2 And is creatine, is it sourced in a vegan way or is any of it derived from animal sources?

Speaker 1 That's a good question. I'm not sure.
But if you can make testosterone from soy. Right.

Speaker 1 You probably get from soy.

Speaker 2 It's pretty crazy what they can synthesize.

Speaker 1 Oh, dude, yeah. You would never think that's where you get it from, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah. Well, it just takes so many brilliant people working in so many different capacities to create all the stuff that we have available right now.

Speaker 1 Yeah, like some dude took a fucking yam and was like, hey, these chemicals look similar to these chemicals that we like make in our balls.

Speaker 1 Let's tweak it and like make it, let's sell it to people as testosterone. Yeah, I don't even know.
And it works.

Speaker 2 Yeah. That's what's nuts.
It's like super effective.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's very strange that it's also kind of derided that like people like look down upon it. Like, why would you look down upon anything, especially as you're an older person?

Speaker 2 Why would you look down upon anything? It's going to make you feel better.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 No, I think more awareness is coming to it, but also in women for HRT, which is, you could argue, even more of a necessity than at least with men, a lot can maintain residual hormone production to some capacity that could sustain good health long term.

Speaker 1 But with women, once you hit menopause, like you are guaranteed to have like a complete cessation of estrogen and progesterone production to where you are guaranteed putting your brain and heart in.

Speaker 1 danger if you don't replace those hormones. Wow.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 So it's almost like, I don't know, like unwinding some of the shitty information that was put out decades ago on that's the thing for women there was a lot of shitty information put out about hormone replacement yeah yeah it's uh i think it was the women's health initiative they had some study that showed like a relative risk increase in breast cancer or something to the tune of some negligible insignificant amount and they were also using synthetic drugs as opposed to bioidentical so it'd be like the equivalent of me putting you on deca and then being like oh well you got cancer, so testosterone sucks.

Speaker 1 Right. Yeah.
Which is fucking ridiculous.

Speaker 1 So they were using like horse piss derived estrogens or something and then like some shitty progestina and determining, oh, HRT is bad because of some also relatively insignificant increase in cancer risk, which at least to date in bioidentical hormones, we have not seen play out.

Speaker 1 And the upside far outweighs the risk, seemingly, that we can see right now. It's just not really permeated the, I don't know, like masses yet.

Speaker 2 Well, think about how many fucking people are in testosterone replacement therapy and how few of them you know that have problems. I don't know of anybody that has a problem with it.

Speaker 2 I know of so many people that have been enhanced by it, and they feel so much better. They have so much more energy, more life.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's super impactful. And for women, too, like no more hot flashes while you're sleeping.
Your bones aren't going to degrade at the same rates. Like your brain is not.

Speaker 1 Like, Alzheimer's rates in women are like 2x that of men. And it's really?

Speaker 1 It's definitely intertwined with menopause shutting off their hormones. Wow.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 There's so much shit information out there. That's what's fucked.

Speaker 2 When you hear about studies that, like, you know, when the sugar industry funded those studies to demonize saturated fat, because they were trying to say the saturated fat was causing heart attacks and not sugar, when you see about, and I think they only paid them like $50,000 or something crazy.

Speaker 1 So it's not like $60,000. Oh, God.

Speaker 2 You don't know that?

Speaker 1 Well, I didn't know it was $50,000.

Speaker 2 I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure it's like

Speaker 2 $50,000. And it ruined everybody.

Speaker 1 Not that if it was a bigger amount of money, it would be fine. But I mean, it's just shocking how little it is.

Speaker 2 If they paid them $50 million, you'd be like, well, you know, you're unethical. But hey, if somebody offered me $50 million, who knows what I would do? No, $50,000.

Speaker 2 And these motherfuckers ruined people for decades and decades.

Speaker 1 Tildo wanted a Porsche and just ruined the fucking

Speaker 1 food pyramid. Oh, it's like they've,

Speaker 2 here it is. Yep, there it is.
50 years ago, Sugar Industry quietly paid scientists and wound up paying approximately $50,000 in today's dollars for the research. So he's even less than $50,000.

Speaker 2 So it's $50,000 today.

Speaker 2 So 50 years ago, that's probably like 10 grand.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 They paid him 10 grand. These motherfuckers ruined everyone's health.
Yeah. Got people taking margarine.

Speaker 1 Fuck, brilliant.

Speaker 2 Being scared of butter and eggs and meat.

Speaker 1 Damn, dude.

Speaker 2 Crazy.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 So your diet is just meat.

Speaker 2 Yeah, mostly. What about fruit? I eat fruit.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah, I love fruit.
Because even like cycling back and forth between...

Speaker 2 I like fruit before I work out. I like fruit after I work out sometimes.
You know, I like fruit, but I very rarely eat vegetables unless I want to.

Speaker 2 Like if some asparagus and it's looking good, I'll have some asparagus. You know what I mean? Like if I see some Brussels sprouts, I eat it for taste.

Speaker 2 Sort of like, I think of it like pasta, except not as bad for you. I think think of it as like, oh, that would probably taste good.
I'd like to eat some of that.

Speaker 2 I don't think of it as like, this is like nutrition and fuel.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 when I eat for nutrition and fuel, it's eggs and steak.

Speaker 2 That's 90 plus percent of my diet. This episode is brought to you by 8 Sleep.
You can finally experience the benefits of the 8 Sleep Pod 5 Smart Mattress Cover.

Speaker 2 If you haven't already heard about the Pod 5, let me tell you, it's next level health hack for better sleep. I love it.
Up to an extra hour each night of sleep.

Speaker 2 The Pod 5 automatically regulates your temperature from 55 to 110 degrees on each side of the bed. So no more arguing with your partner over who's got the thermostat.

Speaker 2 There's a built-in speaker for white noise or guided meditations and sensors to track your sleep, heart rate, and breathing. No wearables required.

Speaker 2 And the Pod 5 Ultra can even detect snoring and then elevate you to stop it. It's time to get involved because 8Sleep is having their biggest sale of the year right now.

Speaker 2 Head over to 8sleep.com slash Rogan and use the code Rogan to get up to $700 off a Pod 5 Ultra. You still get 30 days to try it at home and you can return it if you don't like it.

Speaker 2 But you'll love it and your body will thank you for investing in better sleep. That's 8Sleep.com slash Rogan.
This episode is brought to you by Manscape.

Speaker 2 The holidays are upon us and that means it's time to take care of that shopping list.

Speaker 2 And finding the perfect gift just got a whole lot easier this year though because you can just get Manscaped's Performance Package 5.0 Ultra.

Speaker 2 It's perfect for your partner, your dad, your brother, or even yourself. Everyone needs a decent razor and a little self-care after all.

Speaker 2 This all-in-one grooming kit comes with everything you could possibly need to trim, shave, and get ready for a festive occasion.

Speaker 2 It comes with two trimmers, one for body hair and one for those small, pesky nose and eyebrow hairs. And there's the aftercare.

Speaker 2 The performance package 5.0 Ultra also includes aftershave lotion and deodorant to keep you fresh, comfortable, and confident when you finally step out of the bathroom.

Speaker 2 Because nothing says I care like a well-groomed man. Give the gift of smooth this holiday season with the Performance Package 5.0 Ultra.

Speaker 2 It even comes with two free gifts, a pair of boxers, and a spiffy toiletry bag. Get 15% off with the code JRE at manscaped.com.
That's 15% off plus free shipping at manscaped.com with the code J-R-E.

Speaker 1 Have you been following the boxing gold medal debacle with that like?

Speaker 2 First of all, XY chromosome, K's closed. Yeah.
If you have a fucking, and this is what the Enhanced Game wants to do. So the Enhanced Games, you know, they're developing this

Speaker 2 Olympic style event and they're spending a lot of money on it.

Speaker 2 They have a lot of big investors and they're going to give real prizes, like a million dollars if you win the gold medal instead of zero, which is what the Olympics gives.

Speaker 2 And I asked them, I'm like, How are you going to address like trans athletes?

Speaker 2 And they said, We think we're going to do chromosomes, but yeah, yeah, which is really the only way to do it politically correct.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you know, you don't say, This is not a woman, you say, What are your chromosomes?

Speaker 2 Ma'am, what are your chromosomes? X, Y. Ma'am, you got to be in the XY box.
Get over there. But I identify as a woman.

Speaker 2 Get over there.

Speaker 1 Get over there. Apparently, they used to do sex testing in the Olympics in the 90s, I believe.
They stopped doing it.

Speaker 1 And then since then, it's been like these weird, nuanced scenarios with, oh, is your testosterone level looking male or whatever? And, you know,

Speaker 1 it gets nuanced with the type of like.

Speaker 1 disorder you have because some are far more advantageous than others.

Speaker 1 And if this medical report that was leaked of this boxer is true, it's basically the worst offender of the disorders you could have.

Speaker 1 Cause it's basically like a five-alpha reductase deficiency is basically just depriving your body of DHT.

Speaker 1 But if you have internal testes making testosterone, you still have the full functional capacity of a male to build muscle and bone and all the psychoactive effects and all that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, lung size, heart size.

Speaker 1 Now, to be determined, which I think that that athlete should go get the testing to actually disprove it if it was true or if it wasn't true.

Speaker 2 But they would have already done that. Yeah.
Where there's smoke, there's fire.

Speaker 2 You know, I just think if too many people are calling you a man, like there's this one case of there was that runner who cast or semania?

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 So that's a very different thing.

Speaker 1 No, that was like potentially the same thing. Really? Yeah.

Speaker 2 So XY chromosome?

Speaker 1 Had internal testes, XY chromosomes, 5-alpha reductase deficiency, and had the testosterone levels of a male because of the internal testes.

Speaker 1 And you might grow up thinking that you are female because you haven't had adequate sexual differentiation and maturation from the lack of DHT.

Speaker 1 So it's almost like the equivalent to putting a kid at birth on like a mega dose of finasteride or dutasteride and wiping out their DHT.

Speaker 1 So they still grow up. with male level muscle development from the testosterone, but no masculine not sufficient masculinization to differentiate you and mature you completely from the DHT.

Speaker 2 Well, let's see what is the latest on this. So let's find out what is the leaked story on this boxer and

Speaker 2 find out, like,

Speaker 2 has anybody analyzed this? Is there any conclusion that anybody's drawn?

Speaker 1 I don't think so. I think it's still, is the leaked report legit or not?

Speaker 3 The best story I could find, this is November 6th.

Speaker 2 Confirms Olympic boxing champion launching legal action over medical allegated. But this is just about the legal.

Speaker 3 No, no, I was looking for any story about it, having updated information. This was the most recent story was written.
Then anything else was from October where it was saying that she was released.

Speaker 2 She's also saddened by the abuse she has received. Do you think they'll go back and edit this if it turns out she's a man? He's saddened by the abuse that he's received.

Speaker 3 It was about the claims that they were stripped of their title or their gold medal.

Speaker 2 Oh, well, that's not true. No, they haven't been stripped.
So if they're suing over that,

Speaker 2 they can actually win that lawsuit.

Speaker 3 No, but they're suing over something in the French media because they've gotten

Speaker 1 and I feel like the Olympic committee probably has to lean into

Speaker 1 the whole politically correct angle of it too to not get the scrutiny of you let this person punch women in the head. Of course, of course.

Speaker 2 Yeah, she'd never felt a punch like this. Yeah, so what?

Speaker 1 You have all sports too. Yeah.
Fucking fighting people. Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's pretty crazy. But so what is the leaked report, Jamie? Find out what the leaked report excuse me, the leaked report on this person is.

Speaker 3 That's what this has to do with it.

Speaker 2 I understand what it has to do with it, but find out what the actual leaked report is. Like, what is the leak report?

Speaker 1 Oh, Jesus. I think it was the

Speaker 1 basically assessment of.

Speaker 2 Internal testicles.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Okay, French journalists. But there's been multiple studies or multiple articles written saying that this person has XY chromosomes.

Speaker 1 That was a supposed failed gender eligibility test from some organization that...

Speaker 2 Yeah, International Boxing Association did not allow her to participate in 2023 World Championships after she failed gender eligibility test.

Speaker 2 But the International Olympic Committee did authorize her presence at Paris 2024. But here's the thing.
Like, is this...

Speaker 2 When they say the International Olympic Committee did authorize, what are they by what?

Speaker 1 Yeah, this is the crazy thing is apparently their criteria was that you are female on your passport. Oh.

Speaker 1 But it's like, you know, if you look female at birth, you easily could if you have this disorder.

Speaker 2 Didn't Dylan Mulvaney change their passport to a female?

Speaker 1 Oh, probably.

Speaker 2 Did they? Find out, can you change your passport to female if you're transgender? I think you can.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I don't know if Dylan Mulvaney did it.

Speaker 1 That's so low barrier, too. Like, you just have like a fucking ID piece that says you're female, therefore we're going to ignore testies.
Yeah. Like, what the fuck?

Speaker 2 The whole thing is so crazy.

Speaker 2 This is one of the weirder aspects, and the reason why people harp on it so much. Why is everybody so obsessed with trans?

Speaker 2 Because this is why, because it's bizarre. No medical documentation.
You do not need to provide medical documentation to change your gender marker. So this is for on U.S.
passport.

Speaker 2 You can select M for male, F for female, or X for unspecified or another gender identity. So you could have X on your passport.
I think I'm going to get that.

Speaker 2 So no medical documentary. So I could could be a female.
I could just say I'm a female, show up with a full beard.

Speaker 2 Genetic marker you select doesn't need to match your gender on your citizenship evidence or photo ID. See, the reason why this works is I don't know what's going on inside you.

Speaker 2 I don't know how you feel.

Speaker 2 I could be arrogant and

Speaker 2 completely

Speaker 2 not compassionate. And I could just decide that you're just full of shit and you're a guy.
Or you could be in agony going through life feeling like a woman and not understanding why you have a dick.

Speaker 2 I think there's that too. But like I talked about in my comedy special, perverts disappeared like the flu during COVID.
Like they don't exist anymore.

Speaker 2 Like a guy in a dress who gets a hard on going into the women's room is a woman now.

Speaker 2 They used to be psychos. It used to be like Norman Bates in the movie Psycho, dressed up like his mom.
Silence of the lambs. It puts the lotion in the basket.

Speaker 2 It was like if you wanted to make someone in a movie scarier, you put him in a dress.

Speaker 2 You took a psycho killer, you made him dress like a woman, like, oh, this guy's fucking crazy. And then somewhere, we just decided that doesn't exist anymore.
And so there's no perverts.

Speaker 2 And so anyone who just says they're a woman gets to go in the women's room, go in the women's locker, play in women's sports, and you're completely ignoring this subset of society that has always been fucking terrifying to people.

Speaker 2 Creepy guys who dress up like women, who pretend to be women, who are just perverts and just want to sneak around women's room and smell their shit.

Speaker 2 There's people that are out of their mind and you've given them a hall pass.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, like I could empathize with somebody who

Speaker 1 didn't know and then

Speaker 1 became aware of it. And then once they became aware of it, they stopped competing.
It would suck for everyone involved, obviously.

Speaker 1 But like, I could understand like how shitty of a predicament that is yes but it's like the onus is on you once you've been assessed to not compete anymore right and to like confirm what the fuck is going on yeah go fight guys yeah and it's like even if you're at a disadvantage like well it doesn't mean you fight girls at your advantage exactly yeah yeah if you're at a disadvantage fighting guys you probably shouldn't be fighting yeah like how many girls are transitioning and then fighting men or competing against men zero well also here's the other argument there is a spectrum right so there are guys with naturally lower testosterone that are guys like, say, Yoel Romero.

Speaker 2 Yoel Romero has an advantage over almost everybody, you know, when it comes to like genetics. He's just like a fucking specimen from God, right? So, you have that, which is the rarest of rare, right?

Speaker 2 And then you have a guy like, you know, fill in the blank. There's like a bunch of fighters in the UFC.

Speaker 2 I don't want to disparage anybody, but there's a bunch of guys you look at and be like, that's not a specimen, but super tough, super technical, works real hard, very intelligent in their approach, and they manage to fight really well.

Speaker 2 But if they go up against a guy who's a freak, just a physical freak, and that guy works just as hard and is just as intelligent and just as methodical in their training, they're going to have an advantage.

Speaker 2 Just a natural, God-given advantage. Just the universe has kissed them with genetics.
And those people exist, man.

Speaker 2 And so you can't say, well, then that guy should be able to fight women now because he can't beat yo over marrow. Like, that's stupid.
Yeah. That's fucking stupid.

Speaker 2 And it's also, you're not protecting women. I thought that the left was all about protecting women.
Like, this is the whole thing about progressives, protect people that are, like, not as safe.

Speaker 2 Like, I don't generally worry about women raping me.

Speaker 2 Never. Yeah.
Never in my life have I been in a bar and go, boy, I hope some woman doesn't try to rape me. I hope some woman doesn't try to root for me and get my dick hard.

Speaker 2 And no one ever thinks that way. But women walk through life worrying about getting roofied or getting raped or getting dragged into an alleyway.
They worry about that.

Speaker 1 Guys don't worry about that.

Speaker 2 It's just a completely different dynamic. So when you're comparing like trans this and trans that, like there's not a guy I've ever talked to in my life that doesn't

Speaker 2 that is even remotely concerned with a trans man going into the men's room. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I don't give a fuck. If like, what's that person that was was Chas Bono? Chas Bono.
Sonny Bono's daughter that became a man.

Speaker 2 Chas can come into the men's room. I don't give a fuck.
It doesn't even freak me out at all.

Speaker 2 If Chas is in the men's room and I have a two-year-old son with me that I have to take into the bathroom, go to the bathroom, I'm not worried about Chas Bono. But I am worried about a pervert.

Speaker 2 If I was a guy and I had

Speaker 2 a daughter and she was like 10 years old and she went into the women's room and then I saw a man with a fucking five o'clock shadow and a wig on go into the bathroom behind her and I couldn't go in the men I couldn't go in the women's room and see what's going on I go I don't know that might just be a really kind person who identifies as a woman and happens to have a beard or it could be a complete fucking psycho which are real things and by being this compassionate person I'm supposed to ignore the the reality of psychos Yeah, that's crazy.

Speaker 2 This is where it becomes like a cult. Like, this is where it becomes like you're indoctrinated into this very rigid ideology that you can't stray from at all.
And if you do,

Speaker 2 you're cast out of the kingdom forever. You're a heretic.
You're a terrible person.

Speaker 1 Yeah, fucked up, man. It's, I don't really know.

Speaker 1 Even the scrutiny on it, I don't really know how they

Speaker 1 don't acknowledge how absurd it is. Like,

Speaker 2 it's when you watch people defend it, they have to do mental gymnastics. Yeah.
It just does. Do you ever see the conversation that I had with Adam Conover about it?

Speaker 1 No. Oh,

Speaker 2 oh, it was one of the most brutal conversations of all time. It was about trans women in sports.

Speaker 1 And also, this is like a debate.

Speaker 2 Well, it didn't turn out to be. It wasn't planned out.

Speaker 2 It just came about because he was doing, you know, he's just, we were talking about it, and it got to the subject of trans women competing.

Speaker 2 And his position was like, I'm in favor of a sport that's more inclusive.

Speaker 2 So if that makes it more inclusive for the trans woman, and he was like, in favor of hormone blockers for children, that they've always known that they're a woman. Like, what the fuck are you?

Speaker 2 You don't have any kids, you don't know what kids are like. You can tell your kid that they're a werewolf, like, stay, just keep away from the full moon.

Speaker 1 You're a werewolf.

Speaker 2 Oh, I always knew, like,

Speaker 2 they're kids, their brain's not formed, and also they want to please you. And if you're a fucking, how many fucking Hollywood psychos have trans kids?

Speaker 2 How many people where they fly the flag of inclusivity and they're they're a proud progressive, and I'm proud that I have a queer child

Speaker 2 how much of that is your influence is it 0%

Speaker 2 because I bet it's not I bet there's some sort of reinforcement of that it's just like the the numbers are so extraordinary when you have parents that have three trans kids you're like what three

Speaker 2 what are the odds of that and you're nuts You're a nutty actress and you have three trans kids.

Speaker 2 What's going on here? And you're not allowed to say it.

Speaker 2 If you say anything, you say, oh, this person who's clearly mentally ill might actually be mentally ill and might actually have Munchausen syndrome.

Speaker 2 You know, like they might be doing something terrible to their child because they're just fucking nuts and they want a trans kid.

Speaker 2 Like so they could fly it as a, they could put their pride flag on their fucking front door and they feel like a better person. There are people like that.

Speaker 2 And then there are also people that are just compassionate people that want people to be free and do whatever you want. They want you to have complete freedom to express yourself.

Speaker 2 I don't care if a guy wears a dress. Wear a dress, man.

Speaker 2 If that's what you like i don't care you want to paint your nails want to have lipstick on i don't give a fuck have a good time i want you to be happy i'll be your friend just don't try to compete against women in sports that's nuts and don't try to make women uncomfortable by walking with your dick out in the women's locker room

Speaker 2 How about the guy in Canada that's 50 years old that identifies as a teenage girl and was competing in like young girls swimming? And they allowed him, because Canada, like you know,

Speaker 2 you live there. Off the rails.
You live in a communist shithole. That place is nuts.

Speaker 2 And they allow some of the most bananas trans stuff of all time.

Speaker 2 On taxpayer money in Canada, they paid for a guy to develop breast milk. Do you know about this story?

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 Has an adopted child, paid for them, paid for this person to lactate.

Speaker 2 Imagine the toxic milk that's coming out of this man tail.

Speaker 1 It's horrendous.

Speaker 2 Like, what is in there? Like, what are you generating? You don't even have the glands for it. Like, what's actually being secreted there?

Speaker 1 Like, what is that? Yeah. It's like, if you asked me, would it be good milk quality from some guy on Trend or Decca, and he's just fucking secreting shit out of his nipples?

Speaker 1 I'd be like, fuck no, dude.

Speaker 2 Fuck no.

Speaker 2 Like, what is happening? What is in that milk? And what is that going to do to the baby that's sucking on it?

Speaker 2 And all in the name of

Speaker 2 inclusivity. All in the name of being a kind, compassionate, open-minded person.
That's not open-minded.

Speaker 2 That's nuts, and it's cowardly because you're afraid to say what you know to be true because you don't want to suffer the repercussions.

Speaker 2 You don't want to be called a transphobe, whatever the fuck that means. You don't want to be called a bigot.
You don't want to be called any of these things.

Speaker 2 So you'll go along with some of the most preposterous ideas, including pretending that perverts don't exist.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I hope, I don't know if Pierre is going to get into

Speaker 1 winning the election and get Trudeau out, but

Speaker 1 seems like a reasonable guy. guy.

Speaker 2 Well, he seems way more reasonable than Trudeau, who seems completely insane.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and like candidly, I'm not like a political expert by any fucking means at all. So don't take anything I'm saying seriously.

Speaker 1 Apparently, last time I was here, people thought I was like, by not saying anything about it, I was like endorsing Trudeau or something. And I was like,

Speaker 1 I don't know. There was like comments about how, like, Derek knows better.
He knows who this Pierre guy is. I'm like, oh, I just don't follow this shit like I should probably.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 So, but he, yeah, he seems reasonable. And in contrast to Trudeau, who's like a fucking

Speaker 2 full-on lunatic who's completely changed his tune on so many different things, including going after guns, what they did with the trucker, the trucker strike.

Speaker 1 Yeah, like the debanking thing you guys talked about recently, it's like not new news in Canada.

Speaker 2 I know. Yeah.
Well, they did it to people who donated to the trucker convoy, which is really crazy.

Speaker 2 So you just say, hey, these people shouldn't be mandated to get a vaccine that has, you know, a safety profile that's really like, we don't really know yet. We don't know.

Speaker 2 There's no long-term studies. We don't really know what's going to happen.
And you're just like mandating this?

Speaker 1 Yeah. Why?

Speaker 2 Why? I don't have to do it. Why are you making me do it? It turned out you really didn't have to do it.
So this is what's turned out now.

Speaker 2 Was it the, here, I'll send it to you, Jamie. So they released a study.

Speaker 2 recently where the actual government went and looked over here i'll show you this so they went and looked over what the actual results were from the pandemic.

Speaker 2 And the findings are, they're, you know, not that shocking to anybody who's actually paying attention, but completely contrary to what the instructions were when we were young, and this was, or when, you know, COVID was recent, rather.

Speaker 2 So, COVID-19, this is the House released a 500-page report on COVID-19 pandemic. Key findings.
COVID-19 likely originated from a lab-related incident in Wuhan, China. Crazy.

Speaker 2 You get banned from YouTube for saying that. Banned.
Okay, over $200 billion in relief funds lost to fraud with criminals exploiting weak oversight.

Speaker 2 Prolonged lockdowns and arbitrary mandates caused severe harm, economic devastation, mental health crises, and historic learning loss while lacking robust scientific support.

Speaker 2 Policies ignored natural immunity, pushing mandates that eroded trust and harmed public perception of science. Absolutely.

Speaker 2 WHO and CDC compromised by political interference, offering inconsistent, unscientific guidance that fueled public distrust, and the key players included federal agencies and Cuomo's administration, actively obstructed oversight efforts and hid critical evidence.

Speaker 2 Christ. Select Subcommittee on Coronavirus Pandemic basically said all the conspiracy theorists were correct.
Every single one of them. No repercussions, no retractions, no apology from Rachel Maddow.

Speaker 2 None of it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, man. It's

Speaker 1 in Canada, the lockdowns were pretty absurd.

Speaker 1 I know here they were, it depended on the state and whatever, but Canada was like, get your vaccines, you're not leaving to go anywhere.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Crazy.
Fucked up.

Speaker 2 Did you have to take it?

Speaker 1 Yeah, dude. Fucking sucked.

Speaker 2 Did you have a side effect?

Speaker 1 No. Well, at least that I could tell.

Speaker 2 Did you ever do a D-dimer test? Yeah. You're almost.

Speaker 1 good.

Speaker 2 Well, from what I understand, I talked to a friend of mine who's very knowledgeable in this, and he said that one of the real problems was the lack of aspiration, that they didn't aspirate when they injected people.

Speaker 2 Even when they did Biden on television, they just jammed that thing into his arm and shot it in there.

Speaker 1 So is it supposed to stay like local or something?

Speaker 2 The idea about it was it's supposed to stay local. Right? It's supposed to stay local.

Speaker 2 But apparently, there's been, if you talk to Brett Weinstein, a bunch of other peoples, there's a lot of debate as to whether or not it is ever local, that they've been able to find the evidence of the spike protein all throughout the body.

Speaker 2 And the issue, though, was if you didn't aspirate and you went right into a blood vessel.

Speaker 2 So that could be the cause of myocarditis, all these different neurological conditions, all these different things.

Speaker 2 So the lipid nanoparticles and this vaccine gets in your system, your body reacts to it. like it's being attacked, right? Well, if it gets to the heart, your heart doesn't heal, right?

Speaker 2 Which is why your heart doesn't get cancer. Your heart scars.
Like your liver heals. Your liver regenerates.
You could lose half your liver.

Speaker 2 You know, you can donate half your liver to someone and it'll grow back in weeks.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. The liver's resilient.

Speaker 2 It's nuts. Yeah.
But your heart's not like that. So the heart scars over and it leads to, you know, enlargement of the heart, myocarditis, pericarditis.
So this is the thought.

Speaker 2 This is what my friend told me, who's a very intelligent person. I want to name him.
But he said that the real issue is that they didn't didn't aspirate.

Speaker 2 And a significant number of people that are experiencing these long-term issues from the vaccine, it's because it went right into their bloodstream when it was supposed to be intramuscular.

Speaker 1 Yeah, there is

Speaker 1 several times now, because especially if you're on TRT, you're probably more

Speaker 1 understanding of how to inject yourself almost than somebody who's like a random pharmacist

Speaker 1 just jamming people as fast as they want every single day, just as part of their gig. And you're kind of risking it if you just let somebody else pin you.

Speaker 1 Like sometimes you feel like being like, hey, can I do this?

Speaker 1 Right. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Right. But even then, like, if you jam it into your arm, it's possible that you could hit a blood vessel.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Have you ever heard of trend cough?

Speaker 2 I have. What is that?

Speaker 1 Yeah. So it's thought to be that if you get into

Speaker 1 like you nick a vein or something, or you'd like hit a blood vessel, for example, and you get some of it bleeding immediately into systemic circulation rather than being intramuscular entirely, it goes very quickly up to your lungs, and you basically have a coughing fit get induced by your body trying to like expel whatever is there.

Speaker 1 And so, like, I could absolutely see something that wasn't meant to go immediately into systemic circulation being more problematic.

Speaker 1 Like, with trend cough, I've experienced it personally back in the day. This is like one of the most sobering things about bodybuilding:

Speaker 1 if you get trend cough, it's like the most pathetic scenario you'll ever find yourself in because you're just this muscle-bound dude who just injected yourself with like cattle steroids and you're just looking at yourself in the mirror hacking up along sweating your fucking face off like what am i doing with my life

Speaker 1 and you can't get around it other than just like cough along for three minutes it takes three minutes for it to go away it depends but like

Speaker 1 how much you have and all this a bunch of stuff but yeah it's like basically if it happens you can feel it coming on you just like fucking brace yourself on the sink and you get ready to hack up along for a few minutes jesus and is it a consistent thing or is it a one-time thing?

Speaker 2 Like right after injection or is it something?

Speaker 1 It's after injection, but it's like, you know, who knows what that does once you get like solvents and fucking, you know, like whatever else is in your compound, in your solution into systemic circulation immediately.

Speaker 1 Like, I don't know.

Speaker 2 What is trend is something that the craziest of people that I know have taken, including like jiu-jitsu guys that really want to get super jacked. They take trend.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And I'm like, what is it about the trend? And they apparently get like ultra-violent when they're on trend.

Speaker 1 Yeah. So it's a unique compound that's called trend ballone.

Speaker 2 Is that what it is?

Speaker 1 Yeah. And it used to be

Speaker 1 used in for like, I forget what the clinical application was, but it was a pharmaceutical approved steroid back in the 80s and then was, you know, basically taken off the market similar to around the same time that

Speaker 1 interestingly enough, Biden was the one who spearheaded getting like steroids scheduled, essentially. Biden did? Yeah.
He was like at the forefront of pushing for the banning of them or scheduling.

Speaker 2 If I don't have muscles, nobody has muscles. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And that's like he's blamed often by the bodybuilding community for the lack of refinements in anabolic steroids because now we're stuck with the same drugs we've been using since like the 80s. Wow.

Speaker 1 So like every drug category has had significant refinements over the years to make them more effective, less side effect written, et cetera.

Speaker 1 Like GLP-1 medications, for example, highly effective and constantly being like lightning through pipelines to create really, really refined ones that are less problematic.

Speaker 1 And with steroids, that was being done in the 80s. And then once there was, you know, the Ben Johnson debacle, I believe it was.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 That brought all this, you know, public outcry.

Speaker 2 That was a Canadian.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And getting

Speaker 1 positive for Winstrall, I think. And people were like, is this just going to become like a fucking

Speaker 1 like chemical warfare essentially in the Olympics? And whoever's doped the most is going to win. People are freaking out, and the response was Biden getting it, including testosterone, scheduled.

Speaker 2 Wow. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And then there was this huge stigma developed around them, and the taboo of being on steroids was developed.

Speaker 1 And that's kind of what led to this probably slowing down progress decades and likely preventing people from getting steroids developed that were far less likely to kill them.

Speaker 1 Yeah. So we could have like really refined, highly effective compounds by now that don't make your heart explode if you just if they just continued probably.

Speaker 2 Well, I know that one state, I think it was Oregon, essentially decriminalized everything.

Speaker 2 I think they've taken that back now because I think it was like a just Oregon's a disaster anyway, Portland in particular.

Speaker 2 Like you go, there's just needles and drug addicts and it's like open-air drug marts everywhere. Because all the homelessness and the camping on the street, the tent situation there is fucking nuts.

Speaker 2 And they're super tolerant, progressive people, so like overwhelmingly, right? So they just,

Speaker 2 they look at it in terms of compassion for these people. We need to fund them.
And you're basically giving them money to stay homeless. It's really nuts.

Speaker 2 So when a society like that decriminalizes everything, we're just going to have fucking, people are going to go haywire with meth and

Speaker 2 whatever else they want to get. But they also did it with steroids.
They did it with everything. They essentially decriminalized all drugs.

Speaker 2 But I think they took, did they take that back, Jamie?

Speaker 1 I would be curious, even if it was decriminalized, though, what the access would be like, because it's still going to be contingent on compounding pharmacies, being able to make stuff legally, which from what I understand is actually getting worse scrutiny as opposed to like it getting better.

Speaker 2 Well, they're scrutinizing peptides now, which is really crazy. Oregon law rolling back drug decriminalization takes effect, making possession a crime again.

Speaker 2 So is it of all things, did they just change the law totally?

Speaker 2 So the Democratic-controlled legislature passed the recriminalization law in March, overhauling a measure approved by 58% of voters in 2020 that made possessing illicit drugs like heroin punishable by a ticket and a maximum $100 fine.

Speaker 2 The measure directed hundreds of millions of dollars in cannabis tax revenue towards addiction services, but the money was slow to get out the door at a time when the fentanyl crisis was causing a spike in deadly overdoses and health officials.

Speaker 2 Grappling with the COVID-19 pandemic were struggling to stand up the new treatment system state auditors found okay so they just couldn't keep up with what was they didn't follow through with the whole idea of these

Speaker 2 addiction centers and rehabilitation centers

Speaker 1 yeah and like some of this stuff is like

Speaker 1 I don't even know how much it would help being able to possess something when you can't even get it prescribed to begin with.

Speaker 2 Right. You can't manufacture it.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 If you're allowed to get cocaine, if you're allowed to possess cocaine, are you buying fentanyl-laced cocaine from the cartel? Like, what do you...

Speaker 1 Yeah. Like, in Canada, it's not a...

Speaker 1 I'm pretty sure it's not a crime to possess steroids, but to sell it and distribute it, it is a crime.

Speaker 1 And there's still no pharmacies that are making pharmaceutical grade steroids that aren't testosterone.

Speaker 2 Could a pharmacy make it and give it away? Have you had some Elon Musk type fucking crazy person?

Speaker 1 I don't think so. Probably not.
Right.

Speaker 1 So if it's decriminalized and you're allowed to possess it, are you allowed to make it no i think just like the process of distributing pro I don't even know but I know like oxandrole and for example anivar was recently like banned entirely and it's been allowed to be prescribed for certain like hyper-specific niche purposes for decades it's been around since the 80s and it's banned in America as well yeah like recently uh it was added to like uh it was basically de-approved but why good question apparent i but you can still get the COVID-19 vaccine.

Speaker 2 Yeah, easily. They'll still tell you to get it.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Try to give it to kids.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Sucked up, man. Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's crazy because, like, how many people are dying from Anivar?

Speaker 1 Not many.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Like, what's the numbers? It's like, what is it, like, Brazil nut deaths?

Speaker 1 You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 Like, it's definitely not the safe, it's safe drug, but I mean, like, it's, you know, when it's used appropriately, it can be fine. Right.

Speaker 2 Yeah. But there's not a crisis.

Speaker 1 No, no, yeah.

Speaker 2 That's the thing. It's like, why are you passing laws when there's not an issue?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I don't know what the effect of RFK will be, but it sounds like he might be able to influence things now in like a positive direction to that stuff.

Speaker 2 He looks a little saucy. Oh, for sure.
He's 70.

Speaker 1 I think he admitted that he's on TRT.

Speaker 2 Clearly. I mean,

Speaker 2 you would have to be the craziest genetic freak of all time to carry that kind of muscle mass at 70 naturally.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. So that's good.
And he also is open to the idea of changing the classification of psychedelics as well, which I think is going to be really important to people.

Speaker 2 There's a lot of things that morons are preventing society from using, and that's really all it is.

Speaker 2 People who are ignorant to the effects, ignorance to the risk, they're ignorant to all of it, and they're compromised generally by pharmaceutical drug companies.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I definitely think psychedelics have utility. One thing I do see that freaks me out, though, is people permanently changing their brain chemistry with like heavy ayahuasca exposure or whatever.

Speaker 1 Oh yeah. Like, have you seen, uh,

Speaker 1 I've seen multiple cases of this on social media as well as in real life people have gone like retreats and then come back unrecognizable in their demeanor and how they behave and not in a good way.

Speaker 1 Like weirdos.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. I know a few.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Like have you seen Liver King recently?

Speaker 2 No, what's going on?

Speaker 1 He seems like, I don't know, like borderline schizophrenic now.

Speaker 2 Okay, but is that also, I think he was mentally ill, right?

Speaker 1 Maybe.

Speaker 2 I would have, listen, let me just classify my definition of mentally illness as someone who lies. I think that's a mental illness.

Speaker 2 I think lying when it's really obvious.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Like, you know, if I try to tell people I'm six foot three, that's an obvious lie. If I say that over and over again until somebody comes up with a ruler.

Speaker 2 That's crazy. You have to be a crazy person.
That's a mental illness.

Speaker 2 If you lie and say you're black and you're actually white and you like work for the NAACP, like the Rachel Dolez old lady, kind of mentally ill, right? Yeah.

Speaker 2 That's a mental illness. There's something wrong.
You're not like, you're not thinking clear. And you're doing a thing that we generally, like universally say is a bad thing, which is lying, right?

Speaker 2 So if you're doing that, you're lying about taking steroids when it's super obvious you're on steroids. You're 46 years old.
You look like a fucking superhero. You're right.
You're just super jacked.

Speaker 2 Yeah. You know, and then gets caught.
Okay. So now he has to come out and say that he's.

Speaker 2 Now imagine you've never been famous and then all of a sudden you are really, really famous really quickly over the course of a few years.

Speaker 2 Like social media, all over TikTok, your profile is elevated to the point where you could say to the regular person of the street, you know who Liver King is. Like, oh yeah, that Reuted Up guy.

Speaker 2 Everybody knows who he is. Then the hate because your labs come out and finds out he's not a shitload of things.
This guy's juice to the tits.

Speaker 2 Obviously, for a guy like you or a guy like me, we look at a guy like that, like, you've got to be on the juice. You don't even look remotely normal.

Speaker 1 See, everyone says that, though, too, but a lot of people believe them.

Speaker 2 Well, a lot of people are just ignorant, right? But the people that knew, like yourself, 100%, you knew that that guy was on steroids, right?

Speaker 2 So then imagine the anxiety that comes with being exposed and then the hate.

Speaker 2 Now, I don't, this dude, I don't know what this dude does in terms of like social media if he reads comments, but just imagine the psychological effect of being bombarded by people calling you a piece of shit and a liar and a fraud all day long

Speaker 2 every time you check your instagram or whatever you got your youtube the comments are filled with people who hate you yeah filled with it and you're just like sitting there stewing in your own and just freaking out about your decisions and your your your brain probably gets overrun by stress

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. It's uh

Speaker 1 I don't even know for him specifically either if he did psychedelics or not.

Speaker 1 I'm pretty sure he's talked about it openly, but it was just like some of the videos were really odd and it kind of reflected behavior I've seen of people who had like experiences gone awry.

Speaker 1 But certainly not representative of what happens if it's done properly.

Speaker 2 Well, I think it depends on if it's done properly to who.

Speaker 1 Yeah, like your baseline state and like what you're, yeah.

Speaker 2 I think there's people, like this is the argument that Alex Berenson had when he wrote that book. You know, he used to write for the New York Times.
He wrote a book called Tell Your Children.

Speaker 2 And it's all, his argument is that marijuana is not safe for everybody, right? It's safe for a lot of people. I know a lot of people use marijuana all the time.
They don't have any problems.

Speaker 2 But I do know multiple people that have gone schizophrenic for marijuana. Now, is it they were going schizophrenic anyway, and then these high-dose marijuana experiences were the tipping point?

Speaker 2 We don't really know, but we do know there's a correlation. And I've seen it.
I've seen it with multiple people where they were really normal.

Speaker 2 And then all of a sudden, they start talking to you about, like, you know, like someone's talking to them in their head, and there's a chip, and Elon Musk is going to have them be the king of Mars.

Speaker 2 And like, people lose their shit, man. And they go into this world of paranoid fantasy and delusion.
And it's horrible to see, especially if someone that you care about. It's really fucking weird.

Speaker 1 Kills your REM sleep, too. Marijuana does.
Yeah, well, if you're using it like to sleep, it can reduce sleep latency, but significantly harms REM sleep.

Speaker 1 So you might not be getting quality sleep every night, which exacerbates the effect.

Speaker 2 It definitely fucks with your dreams. Yeah.
You know how I know this? Sober October, when we do sober October, like immediately have these wild dreams, like super vivid dreams.

Speaker 2 And I'm like, where are these things been? It's like for the whole month, it's crazy.

Speaker 1 Do you track the sleep metrics when you're doing sober October versus?

Speaker 2 No, I was doing it for a while with Whoop. I was like checking my recovery.
I wasn't that.

Speaker 2 I'm basically a feel person like how do I feel I'm pretty good at knowing how I feel and if I feel well rested if I got eight hours sleep and I feel well rested I'm not even gonna check my

Speaker 2 I don't care I feel great let's go let's go I just like I think so much of it is mental you know so much of it is like the energy that you have to approach your day is enthusiasm and health you know that's where your energy generally comes from Yeah, the stress of tracking can sometimes like defeat the purpose as well for some people.

Speaker 2 I think it's also, you you know, I've heard people talk about like addiction, you know, like how many people are addicted to their phones? Most of us, right?

Speaker 2 There's an addiction to checking like health metrics.

Speaker 2 And there's also an addiction, like competing. But I would say that that's an addiction that's fairly positive because you're addicted to these numbers that are correlated with health benefits.

Speaker 2 So it's like, what is addiction? Okay, if you're a gambling addict and you're losing your house and your children don't have food, okay, that's a detrimental addiction.

Speaker 2 But if you're addicted to exercise and you're super fit because of it and you're going to live longer and you're healthy as fuck and you look great,

Speaker 2 is that really an addiction? I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing. We're talking about the same kind of pattern, but like I've been addicted to a lot of things.

Speaker 2 I've been addicted to martial arts for sure. Like if I don't, I would be like out in public and if people, if people were boring to me, I'd be thinking of combinations.
I'd be like talking to them.

Speaker 2 I wasn't thinking about what they were saying. I was thinking about how it hit them.
I'd think about like, if they step like this, then I'd go like that, but what if I step here?

Speaker 2 I was like working out footwork. I would do it in my head because I was an addict.
But I was addicted to something that was very positive.

Speaker 1 Yeah. No, it's

Speaker 1 you need somewhere to attribute your, I don't know, dopamine to, I guess. You know, if it's positive, it's like probably the best thing you could.

Speaker 1 hope for as long as you don't go over the top which is pretty difficult to do with health

Speaker 2 so but you can break yourself down with overtraining. You know, I would say that my good friend David Goggins is broken his body down with overtraining.

Speaker 2 He's got no cartilage in his knees, and he's running thousands of miles. He's a complete psychopath.
He must be in agony, like every step he takes, and he does not give a fuck. He just keeps going.

Speaker 2 And it's really crazy to see. His doctor looked at his knees and said, and this is from him directly.
He said, I don't know how you could walk on these knees. Forget about run thousands of miles.

Speaker 2 They had to cut his his knee because it's bone on bone. His bone was distorting so much by growing to kind of like deal with the inflammation.

Speaker 2 And like, it's like some, I forget what it's called, something wolf syndrome, something. So they had to cut his leg, cut his fucking tibia bone and shift it down so that it's flat.

Speaker 2 So they could run flat bone on bone.

Speaker 1 That's fucked.

Speaker 2 Dude, it's madness.

Speaker 1 Dude, it's even more madness is the guys who get their tibia smashed open and femur and then get height increasing surgery.

Speaker 2 That's crazy.

Speaker 2 Do you

Speaker 2 follow that one guy who was like 6'2 ⁇ , who did it?

Speaker 1 Dude, I'm doing a podcast with him in two days.

Speaker 2 What is it called? I got my knees done. Is that what he did? He took his cage down, though, didn't he?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think he was off social media for a while. And

Speaker 1 I was actually going to do a podcast with him last year, and then it didn't end up working out. And he's available and into the idea still.

Speaker 2 Is he fully healed now?

Speaker 1 He went from six foot to six foot six.

Speaker 2 Jesus Christ, look at the size of him. And this is him wheeling himself around.
And he was a massive guy, too. Like, look at the size of his fucking arm.

Speaker 1 Yeah, the guy is like a genetic freak for muscle for sure.

Speaker 2 And let's become taller.

Speaker 1 They're cranking their legs.

Speaker 2 This is nuts.

Speaker 1 So basically, they go in and shove these rods into your legs, either in the tibia or the femur, or you can do both if you want to max out.

Speaker 1 And you can basically micro-adjust stretch it to create a separation between the bone, which then fills in with new bone over time.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 2 this is him seven months after the lengthening process. I want to see what your legs look like, dude.
Why I got sweatpants on? See what those little toothpicks look like.

Speaker 1 Yeah, so this guy went from like nuts. I don't know what his original height was, but he's six feet now, and he was like, I think five, six or five, seven when he started.

Speaker 2 Wow, that's crazy.

Speaker 1 So I have a lot of questions about is your athleticism permanently fucked now? Are you ever going to be able to squat again? You know, like,

Speaker 1 what's life like now? What was the surgery process, rehabilitation?

Speaker 2 What are your mechanics?

Speaker 1 Like, you have to change. You have to learn how to fucking do everything.

Speaker 2 The distance between your shin, like your kneecap and your foot, if that changes dramatically, like your whole timing is different. You have more, a different leverage.

Speaker 2 Everything's different. What does it do to your hips?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 You know, are you going to wear your hips out earlier? Like, your body's probably, like, has to compensate for these freakishly long shins now.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and this guy, too, he's a unique phenomenon, even among the people doing this crazy surgery because he got the full six inches, which is not necessarily typical, having both bones broken to do it.

Speaker 1 And then...

Speaker 1 maxing it out at the weight he's at too. So he has to support the recovery on like a, I can imagine, seemingly like 300 plus frame or something.
Jesus Christ.

Speaker 1 A lot of people who get it done are like 5'6, trying to become like 5'0.

Speaker 2 They weigh 150.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and it's like more. Right.
It's still probably fucking insane, regardless. It's insane.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Well, it's just, you're only stretching one bone, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I have to.

Speaker 2 Are they doing the tibia as well?

Speaker 2 You pick.

Speaker 2 So the tibia and the fibula, rather? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Are you doing both of them? Femur or tibia. Oh, you could do femur? Yeah.
Oh.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I could be misspeaking, but I'm pretty sure it's one or the other.
Or Or both? Yeah. Oh, Jesus.
He had both done, and he maxed it out. Jesus.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 So he's... What is the recovery-like?

Speaker 1 Yeah, good question.

Speaker 2 So this is this guy after how long?

Speaker 1 It's a couple weeks after.

Speaker 2 He's still on how he can jump, which is not much. A couple weeks after he gets his surgery done?

Speaker 1 No, no, no.

Speaker 2 After he gets the bars pulled.

Speaker 1 This is all, it's like week by week, I think.

Speaker 2 Jumping after height surgery. Oh, look how skinny his legs are.
So he's pretty skinny. So this is him in the beginning.
He's trying to do it. I would be terrified to do that.

Speaker 1 See, I would be. My curiosity is how athletic were they prior? And then what is their maximal,

Speaker 1 like, what's their max out point of recovery in contrast to their baseline? Because

Speaker 1 you could show me a box jump that looks like you're somewhat functional.

Speaker 1 His legs, that's so crazy. Yeah, so they like stick a rod in it and microphone.

Speaker 1 I think like a year probably or I don't know, months.

Speaker 2 So for a year you're walking around with these like iron shin plates.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's pretty nuts, dude.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 2 getting all the bitches now.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Looking all sexy and tall. Now, there was one guy, Jamie, that you pulled up before who had it done, and they showed him doing some

Speaker 2 athletic drills, like cone drills and coordination drills, and he looked fucking great. He looked like a real athlete, even though he got it done.

Speaker 2 It didn't look like it was, unless he's just unbelievably athletic before and maintained a lot of it. I would like to know, like, did you have a decrease?

Speaker 2 Like, could you, would you, I mean, you obviously look insane right now, but what did you used to be able to do?

Speaker 1 Yeah, some of the stuff I'm curious about too is like how much of the content you see online is like sponsored versus actual like user content just reviewing their experience.

Speaker 1 Because you could see like, for example, hair transplants, tons of people get sent, like fully

Speaker 1 to go get a transplant done as long as they speak positively about it and right whatever so imagine a guy who's getting like specialized attention which you would want if you're getting your fucking legs broken and you're getting it covered or whatever you just make sure you talk about it positively right how much of that content is like legit versus you know somewhat manufactured that's a very good point yeah that's also one of those things where if you're a social media influencer you probably want to appear like you're doing all the right things.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you would never want to admit that you fucked yourself up for height-increasing surgery.

Speaker 2 I can't walk right. I'm in pain all the time.
I can't run anymore.

Speaker 1 You'd become the case study for like why to not do it.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I wonder.
I mean, I wonder what kind of an effect that would have on your mechanics. I really do.
I would imagine for martial arts, like you know where everything is. Like,

Speaker 2 if I'm throwing a kick, I know exactly where my shin is going to land from the distance that I'm at. Like, I've got like this mind, my mind is coordinated for this short body.

Speaker 2 I know exactly how much distance I have to cover. If all of a sudden you add six inches to that,

Speaker 2 everything is weird.

Speaker 1 Dude, even gaining timing. Even gaining a bit of muscle can throw off your depth perception of how strong.
Like, for example, when I was...

Speaker 1 in high school, I played basketball and I started working out in grade 11 and gained like 50 pounds in in a year. And my three-pointer that used to be just like

Speaker 1 just fucking money every time I knew exactly how to shoot the ball like it was, you know, just second nature to, cause you've been doing it for a decade or whatever.

Speaker 1 And then all of a sudden you add this extra force production that you're not accounting for previously. All of a sudden everything's thrown off.

Speaker 2 Oh, and also you're sore all the time because you're always lifting, which makes you tight.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it became a brick house after that.

Speaker 2 It's a giant problem with pool, you know, because I'm addicted to playing pool. When I lift weights and then play pool, it takes like an hour before I can loosen up and play good.

Speaker 2 Everything's off. It's like my arm's not listening right.
It's all stiff. Like for pool, you want to like when I'm playing really well, I'm barely holding on to that cue.

Speaker 2 It's like I'm almost letting the cue do all the work. It's like a very gentle thing.
But then when I've been, like, I do like a heavy kettlebell session and then I try to play pool.

Speaker 1 It's like,

Speaker 2 everything's just tight and goofy and clunky. And you don't feel it.
Like, pool is like a feel game.

Speaker 2 Like, you're feeling how many rotations you're putting on the ball to get it to move to the next position. Like, literally, you were within one or two rotations correctly.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And that's the, the difference between getting into an area where you can make the next shot or not.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Like, so it's all feel.

Speaker 2 Like these guys, like Fedora Gorst, who's like one of the best players in the world, he, he changed cues. He changed cue companies.

Speaker 2 The same weight, the same

Speaker 2 taper, the same tip millimeter. And he said his shot was about 10% off.
He goes 6% to 10% off.

Speaker 1 I was like, what?

Speaker 2 Like, how? He's like,

Speaker 2 you just, it's off. It takes a while to recalibrate.

Speaker 1 Yeah, this is one of those examples where, like, you know, in MMA, too, like, if you gain a bunch of muscle from drugs, even, like, it's not necessarily beneficial.

Speaker 1 Your mobility could be inhibited, flexibility, gas out quicker. Even in BJJ, it's like, and you can sauce to the tits, but like it might not be helpful to the capacity.
You can actually push it.

Speaker 1 Right. You know, you might gas out quicker.
All of a sudden, you can't do things that you used to do.

Speaker 2 I think the key is moderation and lifting in regard to, unless you're on the sauce.

Speaker 2 You know, if you're doing anything like MMA or any skill-based thing, because as soon as you're tight and sore, you're not going to learn well.

Speaker 2 You're not going to have a snap to your punches. You'll be pushing punches.
You know, there's

Speaker 2 a fluidity.

Speaker 2 Like some of the hardest techniques almost look effortless because there's a fluidity to the, like if you're landing a kick, for example, like a hard kick, like a spinning back kick, like what John Jones knocked out Steve Mijoc with, there's a...

Speaker 2 There's a dance going on with your nervous system, with all your muscles moving in coordination. If you think of how complex that movement is, right?

Speaker 2 He's standing like this, sideways, and he's looking for the, and at the right moment, he pivots on the ball of his foot, turns his heel towards the person, rotates his entire body this way, and shoves his leg forward, pushing off his back leg with all of his weight.

Speaker 2 And there's a timing. You don't want to hit him here, and you don't want to hit him at the end of it.
You want to hit him right in the sweet spot.

Speaker 2 So you've got to know your foot on extension is going to be properly distanced from his ribcage in order for you to get maximum force. And it's all happening in a fraction of a second.

Speaker 2 It's just whoomp. And when it lands, it's like getting hit by a fucking car.
And if you tie, but it's a dance. And if you, here, here you see him do this.
Look at this. Fucking dance, man.
Watch this.

Speaker 1 Look at that turn. Boom.

Speaker 2 I mean, it's perfection.

Speaker 1 I had a feeling that if anyone could appreciate this, it would be, you know,

Speaker 1 you for sure, given this is like your signature, right?

Speaker 2 Oh, that's my specialty kick. Yeah, that's uh yeah

Speaker 2 not that it is everyone is impressed by it, but like I knew you would see it as like I was so hyped up for it because I always wondered why more people don't throw it and that's also the same kick that Max Holloway landed on Justin Gacey at the end of the first round He fucked him up at the end of the first round with a spinning back kick to the face, which is a crazy kick to take in the mud

Speaker 2 sick fight but that it's but you know, Steve Bay is one of the toughest guys to ever walk the face of the earth. For him to go down like that, look at the force.
Look at the force.

Speaker 1 boom

Speaker 2 i mean your hole his rib went in like look how deep it goes in on impact look how fucking deep his heel is into look at that that's insane it's like the body equivalent of that tony ferguson picture Right.

Speaker 2 Right. The one who gets front kicked in the face.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, that is incredible amount of penetration. Look at that.

Speaker 2 I mean, all of his organs just went into shock right there. And if he was on the other side, it would be even more devastating because that's not even the side where the liver is.

Speaker 2 That's just general organ trauma, you know?

Speaker 2 And he just can't take it. He just goes down.
And then that's a wrap.

Speaker 1 So what happens when Aspinall fights John Jones?

Speaker 2 I got to hope they fight. I want to know.

Speaker 1 It's got to happen, right?

Speaker 2 Here's a question with Aspinall. What happens with Aspinall in the second round?

Speaker 2 Like,

Speaker 2 if you want to talk about a guy with sprints, you want to talk about a guy with fast Twitch. Aspinall is one of the fastest heavyweights.

Speaker 2 He might be the fastest heavyweight in the history of the sport. I don't think anybody moves like that guy does.

Speaker 2 At a 250-plus-pound frame, his movement's fucking extraordinary. And that's something you have to deal with.
Like, that is a crazy ability.

Speaker 2 His ability to move, like, the way he moves, is so much different than everybody else in the sport.

Speaker 1 Like, Google.

Speaker 2 Let's come up with a good Aspinall fight.

Speaker 1 How about

Speaker 2 the Curtis Blades fight was pretty quick, But how about the last one with the Pavlich fight where he won the interim title? That's a good one.

Speaker 1 It's a minute. I got Volkov's three minutes.

Speaker 2 Yeah, all of his fights, like all together, he's fought like 10 minutes. Everybody gets blown out.
Yeah, quick.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 But let's watch one of them.

Speaker 2 The only loss he has was he blew his knee out, throwing a kick, which is crazy. He didn't even get hit.
He threw a round kick and his ACL exploded.

Speaker 2 So let's see Marshine Tabora. That's a good one.

Speaker 2 He's so fucking fast, dude. The Andre Olofsky fight, you can see that's pretty fast too.
We'll put the Tabora one. It's the left-hand side.
Go above that, above that, to the left.

Speaker 2 Right there. Click on that.
No, but it's going to be a screen. Just click on it.
I just can't control this. That's fine.
That's fine. I just want to show his movement.
Look how fast he moves in.

Speaker 2 I mean, that guy's so fucking fast.

Speaker 2 He moves like a 175-pounder. He doesn't move like a 250-pound guy.
Look how quickly he closes the distance, man. His hand speed and full range of skills.

Speaker 2 Incredible stand-up, knocks guys out with one punch. Black belt and jiu-jitsu.
Really good wrestler. His everything.
And he's young.

Speaker 1 So what's your prediction if it happens?

Speaker 2 It's hard to bet against John. It's hard to bet against John.
But John's not a real heavyweight. John could make light heavyweight 100%.
He weighs 230 right now, maybe a little less than 230.

Speaker 2 There's There's no doubt in my mind that if John just changed his diet and went back, he hasn't put that much mass on that you would say 205 is out of reach.

Speaker 1 No, it's a fluffy weight. Yeah.
A lot of it, too.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, look, he had always had the reputation of fucking all the heavyweights up at Jackson Winklejohn. Always.

Speaker 2 Everybody said, like, when Brendan went down and trained with him, Brendan was a heavyweight, Brendan Shaub. He's like, he fucked me up.
He goes, dude, I was like top 10 in the world as a heavyweight.

Speaker 2 I thought I was the shit. He fucked me up.
He goes, he beat my ass. And he goes, he beat everybody else's ass, too.
All the other heavyweights, ragdolled dudes way bigger than him. He's just a freak.

Speaker 1 His wingspan is like how much longer than his height, though, too.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's insane. Crazy reach and also just skillful.

Speaker 2 His skills are so rock solid in every way, shape, or form. His stand-up, his submissions.
He's crazy strong. He's got just an insane mind for fighting.

Speaker 1 And would he blow out Pereira, you think, where it's not even a worthwhile?

Speaker 2 The problem is the ground. John's so much better on the ground.

Speaker 1 Like, worlds better.

Speaker 2 You know, and it takes so long to get really good on the ground. And we've seen Pereira get in trouble with guys on the ground that are nowhere near John's level.
Nowhere near.

Speaker 2 John dominates everybody. He took down Daniel Cormier.
Daniel Cormier is an Olympic wrestler. I mean, he's a fucking phenomenal wrestler.
And John took him down and took him down multiple times.

Speaker 2 It's a different dude, man.

Speaker 2 This is what we're talking about, like, with genetics, right? There's some guys, they're just blessed. And then with John, it's blessed and his mind.

Speaker 2 It's not just, it's his personality, his like ruthless competitiveness. He's like, he's not going to fucking lose.
He's going to find a way to get you. And he's going to do it clever.

Speaker 2 He's not trying to take a bunch of punishment and stand in bank. He's not going to point the center of the octagon.
Let's go right here. We'll stand right here.
Never going to happen with John Jones.

Speaker 2 You're not getting none of that, son. You're getting knees to the gut.
You're getting your knees kicked. You're getting fucking just lysed up with elbows where your fucking head's bleeding.

Speaker 2 He's going to slowly dismantle you and find a way to submit you or punish you, beat you to death on the ground.

Speaker 2 But can he do that with a guy like Aspinall, who's a legit 255-pound natural who moves like he's 80 pounds lighter? He's a freak, man.

Speaker 2 Aspinall's a freak. Like, I've seen a lot of heavyweight, even Francis, who's like the greatest, scariest power striker I've ever seen in the heavyweight division.
No one scarier than Francis.

Speaker 2 Francis does not move like Tom Aspinall. Tom Aspinall is significantly faster than every other heavyweight.
That's a real problem. That's a real problem.

Speaker 2 But John has been used to fighting guys like Alexander Gustafson, guys who are really fast at light heavyweights. So the speed is not going to be as much of an adjustment.

Speaker 2 Like John's used to really fast people. He fought Leoto Machita when Machita was in his prime.

Speaker 2 Machita was a lightning bolt, man. And he caught John a bunch of times.
But then there's the thing of getting caught by Leoto Machita is not like getting caught by a 255-pound Tom Aspinall.

Speaker 1 It's pretty crazy being at the top of the sport for like two eras, essentially.

Speaker 2 There's no one like him.

Speaker 1 Yeah, like when I was like a fucking teenager watching UFC, it was like Leoto versus him. You have like Mauricio Shogunua fights.

Speaker 2 He's 14 years at the top. Yeah.
14 years. And

Speaker 2 they're debating whether or not he's the pound-for-pound best fighter alive right now. Islam Makachev currently holds that standing.
And I think that is voted amongst experts.

Speaker 2 I think that's what it, you know, air quotes, experts. Some of these guys don't know jack shit.
There's guys who vote on this that literally have never rolled a day in their life. And that's a fact.

Speaker 1 The meme's pretty funny, though, where it's like every time Dana says John Jones is the best, and they'll put it in front of like, it'll be like, I don't know, some obscene scenario.

Speaker 1 It'll be like somebody getting a terminal illness diagnosis or something. And then Dana White comes in.
He's like, but John Jones is the best fucking fighter of all time.

Speaker 2 I want to make sure that what I said was accurate. Like, who does get to decide what the pound-for-pound list is? I believe it's MMA journalists and experts.

Speaker 2 Now, there's MMA journalists that I know that are really nice guys, and I don't want to say any names, but I know they never worked out a fucking day in their life.

Speaker 2 And they love the sport, and they cover it fairly, and they're very knowledgeable and they're very good at reciting stats and understanding things. But how much do you really know?

Speaker 2 Ratings were generated by a voting panel made up of media members. See, that's a problem.

Speaker 2 Media members were asked to vote on who they feel are the best top fighters in the UFC by weight class and pound for pound.

Speaker 2 A fighter is only eligible to be voted on if they are active status in the UFC. Now, this is not to disparage any of these media people.
Like I said, I love them. I'm friends with a lot of them.

Speaker 2 They're great guys.

Speaker 2 There's no way you

Speaker 2 absolutely understand someone's ability, especially when you're talking about pound for pound, unless you've done martial arts.

Speaker 2 I just don't think I can see, like when John threw that kick, I see that kick and I go, that was beautiful. That was beautiful, because I know how a kick, I know what's supposed to happen.

Speaker 2 You're just guessing. You're guessing on what supposed to, you've never done that on somebody.
If you've never done that, you don't know how beautiful that is. You don't really get it.

Speaker 2 You kind of get it, but you get it the way I get flying a plane. I never flow a plane.
I kind of see they pull the lever. That guy did a great job flying that plane.
Look how he landed. Perfect.

Speaker 2 I don't know what's really going on. You know, but when it comes to martial arts, I know what's really going on.
You know, and when you look at a guy like John Jones,

Speaker 2 I don't think you can make a greatest of all time complete argument. Because the way I like to look at it, I say

Speaker 2 who had the highest expression of martial arts excellence during their prime? Like what? I don't mean the entire career. I don't mean now.

Speaker 2 I mean, when they were hot, like when Anderson Silva was hot, how good was that? Was that better than anything that ever existed? Because I think it might have been.

Speaker 2 And that's what I look at when I look at like pound for pound best. So the argument is John Jones has had some really close fights.
He's had like split decision fights that he won.

Speaker 2 A lot of people thought that, you know, some of his fights could, like, the Dominic Reyes fight.

Speaker 1 Dude, that was close.

Speaker 2 Could have easily gone to Dominic Reyes. Yeah.
Easily. And I would not have been mad at that.

Speaker 2 And, you know, I might go back and watch it again and decide Dominic Reyes won that fight. But there's those 10-9 rounds that are like, I don't know.

Speaker 2 You could say 10-9 John or 10-9 Dominic, and either way, you've lost the title or you've won the title back. You know, like it's real weird.
Makachev is so fucking good.

Speaker 2 He's so fucking good that he headkicked Alexander Volkanovsky in the rematch. He submits everybody, submitted Dustin Poirier.
He's a fucking monster.

Speaker 2 When he gets guys on the ground, he just crushes them. And you could argue that he is dealing with a deeper talent pool.

Speaker 2 So his weight class is, in my opinion, the most talent-rich weight pool in the sport. 155 pounds.
155 pounds is filled with assassins.

Speaker 2 205 pounds is not. 265 is definitely not.
It's the giant difference.

Speaker 1 So when you're talking about it, it's been a while since those divisions were like really heated with depth. Like back.
Which ones? 205? Light heavy, especially.

Speaker 1 It used to be like the fucking division to watch.

Speaker 2 Imagine, though, if Pereira was coming up when John Jones was the champion. That would be exciting.

Speaker 2 That would be exciting. Pereira is a different cat, man.

Speaker 2 Did you hear what Mark Goddard said to me in the fight

Speaker 2 after he fought Khalil Rountry? Roundtree, Mark Goddard came up to me and goes, Mate, the sound it makes when he hits them is ungodly.

Speaker 2 He goes, I've been doing this for 20 years. He goes, the sound he makes is just different.
It's ungodly. He just kept saying that.
He wanted to make a point to say this to me.

Speaker 2 He came up to me like immediately when I got into the octagon. He's like, the sound is ungodly.
His power is so different.

Speaker 2 It's so, do you know, like, Francis hit that punch pad and he got like 127 or whatever? Pereira got 190.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah, that low. 190.
Yeah. Do you know how crazy that is? With a kick, the highest I got was like 157.

Speaker 2 Some guy got like 190 with a kick. We're pretty impressive.
I think some guy might have broken 200 with a kick. Some Muay Thai guy.

Speaker 2 Pereira did 190 with a punch.

Speaker 2 With a punch.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And it was after training. He just wallops this fucking thing.

Speaker 1 And they come out of nowhere. Like there's not really a there's no call.

Speaker 2 Yeah, there's no no tell.

Speaker 2 And he doesn't have to hit you full power because he has so much power, like those leg kicks that he fucks everybody with. There's no turn of the hips at all.

Speaker 2 He's just slapping you with, and all of a sudden you can't walk well. And then he's like marching you down.
And it just takes one shot.

Speaker 2 His power is so crazy, different than anybody else's because everybody gets hit on the chin. But when you get hit on the chin by that guy, it's like you can't get hit.

Speaker 1 You get hit.

Speaker 2 It's like everything is just like, you're like, what the fuck? You can see it in in their face.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I remember the first time I was here, we were talking about how this guy, Pereira, is the only one who's ever beat Adesania and he seems like this fucking assassin.

Speaker 1 We were like, oh, that's, you know, interesting timeline.

Speaker 1 Didn't know it would transpire into like this degree of success where not only does he beat him, but then he like switches divisions, fucking smokes that division too.

Speaker 2 It's crazy. Yeah.
Dominated two divisions. And the only reason why he didn't stay at light heavyweight or at middleweight rather, he's literally killing himself to get to 185.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And I think that likely contributed to the KO, too. Like, Addisonya landed a perfect right hand.
That right hand is going to fuck him up every day of the week, no matter what you weigh.

Speaker 2 It's just perfect.

Speaker 2 And the timing, the way he did it, like leaning up against the cage and just look for the opening and just caught him coming in, bang, dropped him, hit him with the left hook, put the arrows into him when he's down.

Speaker 2 That KO was perfect. But you got to wonder, like, how much of his inability, like, he went completely unconscious.
How much of that is because of the drain, the dehydration?

Speaker 2 Because we know that the brain takes longer to rehydrate than the muscle tissue. Yeah.
So, like, they

Speaker 1 some impact for sure. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Fighters always say that it impacts their ability to take a punch. They talk about it, like, openly.
Like, I took punches better when I went up to 55. Like,

Speaker 2 a good example is Olivera. Olivera was, like, notorious for kind of like folding at 45.
He goes up to 55 and he becomes unstoppable.

Speaker 1 Yeah. No, it's

Speaker 1 I'm surprised he ever sucked down at that to begin with. It's pretty funny.

Speaker 2 He's so big that he was getting, making 185 and then fighting at 226.

Speaker 1 That's even more aggressive than the Costa cuts, I think. Yes.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 I think he's got the most aggressive. He had the most aggressive weight cut.
Now it's pretty marginal. Now I think he gets into the low 220s, like 222, and then, you know, he cuts 15.

Speaker 2 Not that bad for a big guy with a lot of muscle.

Speaker 1 Dude, Costa needs to go back to brawling.

Speaker 1 He used to be so exciting. And now it's just kind of like has different strategies each time.
And then, I don't know, it just doesn't seem to be working out.

Speaker 2 It's hard to know what happens to a guy when he gets really owned. Yeah.
Because that's the thing.

Speaker 1 Oh, you think he's like psychologically just like.

Speaker 2 I don't think he's the same guy. Like, that's the guy who walked down Yoel Romero.
And we're like, oh my God, Yoel Romero met a bigger freak than him.

Speaker 2 Because regardless of whether or not you think Costa is juicy, that guy's got extraordinary genetics. You know, I mean, that's why he's such a beautiful man.
Perfect features. Like incredible frame.

Speaker 2 His frame's incredible. And whether or not he's juicy, the reality is the guy has insane genetics, and he was a fucking warrior, especially in that Yoel Romero fight.
Yoel's terrifying to everybody.

Speaker 2 And Costa just walked him down and beat his ass. And that was not a close fight.
It was primarily a stand-up fight, which is where Yoel's the most scary. And Costa was in no danger.

Speaker 2 He beat the shit out of Yoel Romero. But then he fought a guy who was just way more slick.
And Adesanya just was piecing him up in a way where he couldn't respond. He just, he was making,

Speaker 2 he was, what he was doing was a very effective strategy on people that weren't as skillful as Adesanya. But that strategy, Adesanya was easily exploiting.

Speaker 2 And he was like exploiting him with distance and with feints and distant management and chopping at the legs. And just he had him all fucked up by the end of the first round.

Speaker 2 He was realizing, I can't touch this guy. And he keeps hitting me.

Speaker 2 And when he would touch Izzy, Izzy would be rolling with the punches or he'd block the kick and just move away from it as he's getting hit and then just keep stabbing at him from a distance and it was just he was too good that's Izzy in his prime when he was at the top of the food chain and at that moment he felt he fought the best Israel Adesanya that's ever been and that's like we were talking about like how good does a guy compete in that one

Speaker 2 this gap of a couple of years or three years where he's just in his prime. I think that was what it was.

Speaker 2 That was Izzy in his prime, which is one of the greatest fighters of all time against Paulo Costa, who just didn't have the answers to that.

Speaker 2 And once you've been bested like that, and a guy dry humps you when you're down, he beats your ass, TKOs you, and then humps you, you're just like, I thought I was the man.

Speaker 2 So then he has all these doubts, and then he goes into the next fights. He missed weight for one fight and fought at 205.
Remember when he fought,

Speaker 2 who the fuck did he fight?

Speaker 2 God damn it, I can't. Marvin Vittori.
He fought Marvin Vittori, and they were supposed to be fighting at 185, and they fought at like 205, and he still looked like he was out of shape.

Speaker 2 He looked like he's mentally all fucked up from that fight.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I can imagine the downward spiral that you would have to try and contend with as well after you go from top rank to, I think he's lost like three in a row.

Speaker 2 It's crazy.

Speaker 2 I'd like to see him get back into form, but I don't know if he can anymore. You know, I don't know if you're psychologically the same guy.

Speaker 1 Did you watch CJI?

Speaker 2 Uh, what is that?

Speaker 1 The Craig Jones invitation.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. I was thinking, what does CGI stand for?

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, I watched it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I watched it. Yeah.
What'd you think?

Speaker 2 Well, I think it's great that these guys are getting a lot of money. I think that's awesome.
And it's kind of crazy they decided to compete against Abu Dhabi in the same weekend.

Speaker 2 I thought that was kind of nuts. But I guess if you want to be controversial, and Craig is certainly controversial, and you want to get a lot of attention, it got a lot of attention.

Speaker 2 And then, of course, the money. I mean, he came into the studio with $3 million in cash.
Was it three?

Speaker 1 Yeah, wasn't it?

Speaker 2 It was one million? Oh, it was one million. Okay.

Speaker 1 But even now.

Speaker 2 But they gave out $3 billion, right? So

Speaker 2 three different divisions got a million dollars. So he brought in a million dollars in a duffel bag, which I've never seen that before.

Speaker 2 It's crazy to look at.

Speaker 1 No, yeah. It's

Speaker 1 not easy.

Speaker 2 You know, it's fun. Craig's fun.
He's a funny guy. He's fucking hilarious.
He's the most hilarious guy in Jiu-Jitsu. He's like really silly.
He's very self-deprecating. And he's super skillful.

Speaker 2 I mean, his jiu-jitsu is like second best in the world. He always talks about it.

Speaker 2 He named his team the B-Team. He's not going to beat Gordon.
You know, Gordon is a freak, and Gordon is like a real psychopath. Like, Gordon trains every day of the week.

Speaker 1 Gordon versus Nikki Rodd. Who wins? Gordon.

Speaker 2 No question. Yeah, Gordon's better.
He's just better. Nikki Rodd might get to Gordon's level one day.
I mean, but if they're not training together, I don't know if he will.

Speaker 2 You know, I don't know if he's training with... Look, look, he's beat him every time they faced him.
And Nikki did catch him in a footlock, but Gordon's like, God, break my foot.

Speaker 2 I'm still going to win.

Speaker 2 And he submitted him easily in Abu Dhabi. And when they had their second match, you know, Gordon was alleging he was greasy.
Like, he was difficult to get a hold of.

Speaker 2 And that's been something that people have said about Nikki before. But it might be oily food.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I don't know.
I don't know what's going on. But I know guys did that.
I know guys would take baths. This was in the early days, like the pride days.

Speaker 2 They would lay in a bathtub filled with baby oil. So they would lay in this bathtub with water and like fucking gallons of like P.
Diddy style,

Speaker 1 P.

Speaker 2 Diddy style, fucking like just supplies of baby oil in that water, and they'd bathe in it.

Speaker 2 Then they would wash themselves off, dry themselves off, and then to the touch, their skin would not feel like oil at all until they started sweating.

Speaker 2 And then when they started sweating they would be like a fish just you just couldn't grab them oh my god yeah that was the thing that it was alleged that certain strikers from brazil used to do before they fought and guys just could not get a hold of them they would just be so slippery you you couldn't take them down if you take them down you couldn't hold them down you just slip right out of your hands like a bar of soap and how would you avoid do they screen for that somehow in the ufc or like how does that work the problem is what i'm saying that you could oil your skin up and then wash it and it would still be in your pores.

Speaker 2 And you wouldn't even be able to detect, as long as you were dry, they would rub you with like a cloth or something. Like, nope, there's nothing on his skin.

Speaker 2 Like, what are they, unless they have, like, baby oil detection wipes that you then send to a laboratory to find out this person put baby oil on.

Speaker 2 So, are you never allowed to put baby oil on, or are you only allowed to put baby oil on until the week of the fight? Like, when? When are we going to say no baby oil ever for a person?

Speaker 2 What if they like baby oil? What if they like the, you know, what if they they like cocoa butter? What do you, it's so it's weird. Yeah.
It's weird.

Speaker 2 And so the solution to that is everybody has to wear long-sleeve rash guards and spats. That's the solution.
And that's what they should do.

Speaker 2 So the best way to stop these greasers is you put them in leggings, leggings and tights. Simple.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I remember that was like a bit of a controversy, at least in early UFC. It was like...
Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 I know guys greased.

Speaker 2 100%, I can tell you 100% guys greased.

Speaker 1 Even like between rounds, the two.

Speaker 2 I know one guy who didn't just grease. He put Vicks vapor rub all over his chest.
Jesus. And then he would grab guys and pull their head into his chest.

Speaker 2 So you'd be getting sweat and Vicks vapo rub in your eyes, and he'd be kneeing you in the face.

Speaker 1 That's fucking crazy, though. Crazy.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Well, when they weren't testing for things, dudes did a lot of dirty shit.
Yeah. I heard another story.
I can't substantiate. I will say no names.
But a guy allegedly gave blood to make weight.

Speaker 2 So he not didn't give blood, but had blood removed from his body and chilled in his room so that he can make weight and then went back up to his room and got that blood put back in his body after his body had probably

Speaker 2 resupplied itself with a significant amount of it, depending on how much time it is between the fact they withdraw the blood.

Speaker 2 I don't know how long, how much time, but you could think about like how much weight blood is. And if you can get like, you know, how much can you take while you're still conscious? I don't know.

Speaker 2 But you take these bags of blood and keep them chilled and then let your body refill and reproliferate with blood and then go back into the room and now you're blood doping with your own blood.

Speaker 2 Totally undetectable. And you made weight with blood cutting.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And that's like another micro-dose vector that people use still to this day.
Blood transfusion. Autologous blood transfusions.

Speaker 1 Well, that's what, I mean, there's probably multiple factors why you're not allowed to get IVs, and that might be one of them you know yeah but it's like detecting that is always just through your data that they have to assess or they assess for like plastics in your in your bloodstream which you can get around just by storage technique right

Speaker 2 um plastics in your bloodstream would you get around that if you injected it with a glass vial and a needle as opposed to like a bag some people are like freezing as opposed to just like storing it in liquid format and then whatever you're storing it in it can all make a difference in terms of like freezing it.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 You can freeze your blood and then put it back in.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Whoa.
Yeah. Like thawed out, obviously.
But how weird is that? Super weird.

Speaker 2 How long is your blood good for?

Speaker 1 That's a good question, but I would imagine longer if you're freezing it.

Speaker 2 Jesus Christ. The things people do just to get a little bit of an advantage.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but it works, man. Like that's.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And it's like at least of the doping methods, like one of the least easy to detect because there's no like substance that is stimulating anything.

Speaker 1 It's just your own blood that was supposed to be there. Right.

Speaker 2 So the only way they'd be able to detect is to detect whether or not you've had an IV.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Well, it would be like they'd look at your biological passport data and see unusual elevation of hemoglobin, hematocrit, probably around an event.

Speaker 1 And you would also see a disproportionate suppression of reticulocytes, which are like immature red blood cells.

Speaker 1 Because if your body has, similar to the testosterone, if you administer it, you stop producing naturally.

Speaker 1 So if you put in exogenous blood, you're going to suppress the natural production of red blood cells because you have an adequate supply. Right.

Speaker 1 So you would have a disproportionate ratio between like blood cells. oxygen carrying capacity markers and immature blood cells.
And it's like, why is this differential so significant all of a sudden?

Speaker 1 Right. And it might flag an atypical finding and get further scrutiny.

Speaker 1 And yeah, with blood transfusions, because there's no way to really prove anything,

Speaker 1 oftentimes penalizations occur based on like

Speaker 1 it looks so fucked up that we have to penalize you because we assumed you did it.

Speaker 2 Like, how would they detect that?

Speaker 1 Like, I think it's just such an aberrant finding that's different from everything you've ever showed in your data that you must have cheated. Oh, right.

Speaker 2 So, the biological passport.

Speaker 1 Yeah, because it's like with other compounds like testosterone, you need to have like

Speaker 1 confirmation via isotope ratio, mass spec, or whatever. But with blood, it's like, what did you do? Like, there's no compound to prove was or wasn't there.
It's just like the blood.

Speaker 2 But it is illegal, right? So you'd have to have a nurse that can keep their mouth shut.

Speaker 1 Or

Speaker 1 a significant other who is a nurse or a myriad of different things. Right.
Yeah. Right, right, right.
And some of this stuff isn't like hard to really learn either.

Speaker 1 Like, it's actually a pretty good profession is learning how to take, like, some people do

Speaker 1 phlebotomy as like a low barrier to entry high paying job so like being somebody who takes blood is like

Speaker 1 there's not much of a requirement from like credentials to be able to do it and it pays well per hour

Speaker 2 yeah and if you had a family member who's a phlebotomist and they could hook that up yeah yeah yeah what are the other different ways that they can get like how rock solid is like the let's forget about drug sport what they're what they have now but the USATA protocol that they were using before.

Speaker 2 What are the best ways to get around that?

Speaker 1 Well, because they weren't actually testing almost at all for EPO and GH.

Speaker 2 What percentage were they testing for it?

Speaker 1 You probably have to ask Hunter to confirm, but my understanding was like best case scenario, you were

Speaker 1 getting EPO tested if somebody like reported you as like, you know, there's a bunch of people trying to out you as a cheater.

Speaker 2 And again, is this a finance thing?

Speaker 1 Is this a.

Speaker 1 I think it was a lot finance and time-intensive. And because it, some of this testing is not as rudimentary and crude as like, you know, just detection of synthetic steroids in your urine.

Speaker 1 You have to actually like manually do work to like combust down and assess the ratio. And there's like nuance in interpreting this stuff, too.

Speaker 1 Because a lot of times you will have an expert who has a different opinion than another expert in terms of if it looks weird. Right.

Speaker 1 So you have to like bring in multiple opinions too, maybe of experts who then kind of come to a consolidated answer on did you cheat or not?

Speaker 1 And it gets pretty complicated. So doing this at scale on a sport that has no off-season with people globally competing, like pretty fucking costly for sure to do properly.

Speaker 2 Well, the MMA conspiracy theorists, they always point to like people doing their camps in like faraway lands.

Speaker 2 Like, what a good way to cheat. You know, because if you want to do a camp in Dagestan, like, how many times is USATA going to Dagestan?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And what happens to those guys when they get over there and they get smacked up by those bearded dudes?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Can you imagine telling those guys, wake up at six o'clock in the morning? Yeah. They'll feed you to their goats.
Like, what are you talking about?

Speaker 1 Fuck you. Come back tomorrow.
Yeah, fuck you. Yeah.
No, it's.

Speaker 2 Also, they probably know when you're there. Yeah.
They've probably got that town wired.

Speaker 1 There's absolutely logistical problems that lead to lower barriers for certain people. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Like, do you camp in Thailand, son?

Speaker 1 Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 You got to wonder, like, I would like to see, like, what are, what's the data on people that do their camp in Thailand. How often are they tested versus a guy who's got to camp in Iowa?

Speaker 1 And even, like, the rigor of the person who's hired to do the testing, because it's like how,

Speaker 1 you know, scrutinous is whoever you're outsourcing your hiring in that area to.

Speaker 1 Like, you know, they could be like a local who is you know like pledged allegiance to that fucking right you know whatever right so i don't know man it's it's tough for sure because there's no way to like truly bulletproof it i think but at least the ufc developments as of recent they've confirmed they're doing like isotope ratio mass spec and actually doing some of the higher level testing for bioidenticals that could catch the microdosing and the things that are very difficult to detect.

Speaker 1 Stuff is still going to squeeze through for sure, but it's going to be better than it was where they were either not doing it or then

Speaker 1 letting people do it maybe and then asking them to be fucking snitches for them.

Speaker 2 It used to be back in the day that there was always rumors of like big camps that would hire scientists and that they would figure out ways around.

Speaker 1 Dude, that is a growing profession. Is it? Oh, yeah.
Yeah, there's like so many pharmacology nerds who are like,

Speaker 1 I've even been asked to help people in the Olympics before. Really? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 2 Because you're a pharmacological nerd.

Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 And so these, these people ask you to cheat for them.

Speaker 1 To help them cheat, yeah. Which is also a criminal offense, my understanding, due to there's actually a law now.
It's like the Rod Chankov Act or something. Oh, wow.

Speaker 1 So if you like help somebody, you're also

Speaker 1 doing a crime. Ooh, wow.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 So, you know, obviously not worth doing for me. So I never did it.

Speaker 2 Well, especially something like the Olympics.

Speaker 2 There's no money in it. You don't make any money.
That's what it is.

Speaker 1 Which is crazy. Yeah.
Crazy. It's like pure pride and for winning a medal.

Speaker 2 It's pure exploitation.

Speaker 1 That's what it is.

Speaker 2 Because it's not like there's no money. Like, why are you making all the money? Well, these people are noble.
They don't want to get paid. Like, no, you're just not paying them.

Speaker 2 They don't even know how much money there was. Because in 1936, there was no money.
Right? There was no sponsors. There's no nothing.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I remember. There was no TV.
Yeah, that's a.

Speaker 2 Okay, The bill makes it unlawful to knowingly influence or attempt to conspire to influence a major international sports competition by use of prohibited substance or prohibited method.

Speaker 2 A violator is subject to criminal penalties, a fine, prison term of up to 10 years, or both, and a mandatory restitution.

Speaker 1 Huh. Yeah.
Interesting. So, yeah, there's definitely.

Speaker 1 And when you hear about stuff like this, too, it's like there's always the thought in the back of your mind as a competitor, what are people doing that I'm not? And curiosity strikes.

Speaker 2 What do you think is the answer? What's like

Speaker 2 the non-ideological, when you look at it objectively, you say, you know what? What we should be doing is doing everything that works.

Speaker 2 Or what we should be doing is have the most insane testing that everybody has to be 100% natural, no ifs, ands, or buts, and there's no cheating.

Speaker 1 That's really hard because I too have the same questions you had of the enhanced games where it's like, oh, we're going to have, you know, medical assessments that ensure safety and blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 1 But it's like, if you're going full board, it's impossible to be healthy and safe.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So like, as much as you could argue, it's probably better to not be using Frankenstein designer drugs or doing weird methods to get around cheating.

Speaker 1 The alternative is not necessarily like far superior in terms of health. Because if I'm allowed to use a gram of test, you know, like I'm not going to stop at 200 MIGs, you know?

Speaker 2 Like I'm going to go full, full fucking sauce to the tit so yeah if you can get a physiological benefit of being on trend and just fucking completely roid it out of your mind yeah become like a fucking dopaminergic psycho and just like

Speaker 2 you know you will absolutely take that risk regardless of what it does to you yeah especially if you're trying to win right if people are willing to cheat when it's really dangerous you could lose the medal and you can get outed and publicly shame like ben johnson

Speaker 2 or you don't have to worry about that because they're allowing you to, but they would like you to take like a sustainable dose. And you're like, fuck you with your sustainable.

Speaker 2 I'm trying to be number one, bitch.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And at all.
I love the idea of the enhanced games, by the way, but it's like,

Speaker 1 at least my concern would be what happens when you put up no guardrails.

Speaker 1 And then alternatively, if there are guardrails, now it's set up for corruption at the medical provider level who's assessing what you're healthy enough to do.

Speaker 1 And like, you know, are you going in to get your blood drawn at the trough point after injections where things look like they're half out of your system versus before like it's almost like a new level of doping that would be introduced right right right so and i'm sure they're very well-spoken eloquent guys who are on top of that stuff and i'm sure have answers to that

Speaker 1 or you know have some idea of what they're going to do but like those would be my questions as to uh and i'm not saying it needs to be safe right you know it might just come down to accepting that this is the fucking chemical warfare games right Yeah.

Speaker 1 Which there's nothing wrong with that if you're going to expose yourself to that risk. People do that in bodybuilding all the time.
That's like literally what bodybuilding is. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 That's what's crazy, right? Bodybuilding is a huge sport. It's not possible without illegal drugs.

Speaker 1 And there's no Rodchenkov Act for bodybuilding either. So there's like literal, the guru stuff is crazy in bodybuilding.

Speaker 2 Well, how do they get away with it since it's completely illegal?

Speaker 2 Well, I mean, like, obviously you're going to jail.

Speaker 2 If I'm a guy who's arresting people who are on steroids, I go to Mr. Olympia.
I'm like, you're all in jail.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
Right? You'd think if you wanted to just, like, hit your quota for the year, you'd just show up to the Olympia Expo and just be like, all of you, everybody, get in the fucking car.

Speaker 2 Get in the paddy wagon. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I don't know, man.
That's.

Speaker 1 How'd you get it?

Speaker 1 When it comes to possession in the States and like how scrutinous they are on anabolics, I think it's mostly if you're importing mass amounts, they will flag you because you're likely a distributor at that point.

Speaker 1 Okay. So if it's like personal amounts, typically you would buy it domestically to not like red flag yourself.
Because I think in the mail, you can't even have your mail get checked if it's domestic.

Speaker 1 So if you are buying from, you know, the other side of the country. No one would know that you were sent anything.
It's only if you're buying like growth hormone from China or something.

Speaker 1 Oh, and you have

Speaker 1 enough kits that happen to get flagged in customs, then they keep a note on your record of this guy might be doing something.

Speaker 2 So he might be a steroid dealer. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And then they'll have sting operations and try and figure out who's actually distributing.
Because they have resource allocation bandwidth problems too. So they have to go after the big fish.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 So do guys go to Mexico and bring them across the border?

Speaker 1 Not anymore. No, they used to?

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, back in the day. Yeah.
People would like smuggle it up their ass to get it here. Jesus Christ.

Speaker 2 Imagine taking trend that was in a guy's asshole.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 Dan Bilzerian used to, he talked about how when he was in

Speaker 1 buds, he would like go with his buddies to get gear from Mexico, and then they'd smuggle it up their asses back into the U.S. Christ.
Once the bottle broke.

Speaker 1 Fucking

Speaker 1 butthole glass cuts, buddy.

Speaker 2 I watched that in a video. It's called One Guy One Cup.
Oh, yeah. You ever seen that one?

Speaker 1 No. I was back in the lively.
I saw the OG variant of that and never watched it.

Speaker 1 I can't watch another one.

Speaker 2 One guy, one cup is way more horrifying. This guy sticks a mason jar up his asshole and it breaks.

Speaker 2 I think it's a mason jar.

Speaker 2 Some kind of of a jar up his asshole and it breaks and it's just chunks of broken glass and blood fall onto the ground as he squat it's horrible but i watched it multiple times

Speaker 2 there's a lot of crazy people in this world yeah do you think that i i i'm of the opinion let me just say what i think i think that most substances should be legal and i think people should be able to figure out what's good and what's bad there's a lot of things that are legal like adderall is legal i don't take adderall you know i'm 99 sure I have ADHD.

Speaker 2 I don't even know what it is. I don't even know if it's real.
I think it's probably a superpower.

Speaker 2 But if I went to a doctor and I was complaining about I can't focus on any one thing, I'm all over the place. They'd probably give me some.
And that would have legal stimulants.

Speaker 2 I don't think it's probably think it's not good for you, so I don't take it. But I could, right? Why is that legal and cocaine's not? Like, why is this legal and that's not?

Speaker 2 Why is whiskey legal and marijuana's not? Well, this doesn't make any sense to me. Why is Xanax legal, psilocybin's not? Like, what are we doing?

Speaker 1 Who gets to decide? You could argue that, well, that's the reason why clinical trials exist, which assess, you know, safety profiles of these drugs and they wouldn't make it through otherwise.

Speaker 1 But like, obviously, we've seen that that's not, once you get financial interest involved, it's kind of hard to overlook that a lot of shit makes it through that probably shouldn't have and stuff that maybe should have made it through or didn't make it through.

Speaker 1 So, you know, like I am of the opinion that you should be able to take what you want and be educated about it, hopefully, first.

Speaker 1 It's tough, though, because it's like if you have a guy who's like, I don't know, manic and he has access to like meth and like pharma grade meth at that or something, which actually exists too.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. And you end up with like a Hitler or something.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 The the trend thing, is that the worst one psychologically?

Speaker 1 From anabolic steroids, I would say probably

Speaker 1 that and then maybe secondary.

Speaker 1 You know, some people could argue halotestin is a a drug that supposedly Mike Tyson was using when he bit Vander Holyfield's ear off. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And it makes you like fucking short-term, acutely, extremely angry.

Speaker 2 How did you hear that he was using that?

Speaker 1 I don't remember exactly. I think it was like he didn't test positive for it.
I think it was just like highly rumor, like a very prevalent rumor, but I forgot.

Speaker 2 They probably didn't test for it, though, either, right?

Speaker 1 No, it was... back then.
And it was really easy to get around like oral steroid detections back then as well, if they were even testing for it.

Speaker 1 I i don't even know if they were testing back then yeah but trend is uh the worst offender for your psychological state not just because the drug is bad but it also like ruins your sleep so you get like trend cough i mentioned but trend sweats is another one where it almost induces like a menopause like hot flash

Speaker 1 uh sweating in your sleep and you wake up just fucking drenched

Speaker 1 and it like really fucks up your sleep and it makes you hyper paranoid as well which is no good because even though you're this jacked, sometimes confident guy, other times you're like, you're unreasonably insecure.

Speaker 1 And you like, a very common outcome is for guys to think their girlfriends are cheating on them just out of nowhere by being on trend.

Speaker 1 Really? Yeah. And they end up becoming, you know, oddly behaving.

Speaker 1 Sexual deviancy is also a very

Speaker 1 common. I've heard of that.
Yeah. Yeah.
On trend. And it's thought to be the progestogenic activity because it's derived from nandrolone, which is a progesterone receptor agonist as well.

Speaker 1 And progesterone is thought to be very implicated in gay sexual tendencies as you grow up. If you had heightened exposure to progesterone in utero

Speaker 1 and highly dopaminergic drug as well, which in excess can cause like really weird sexual deviancy as well.

Speaker 1 And yeah, it's like really fucking potent and good at what it does. It builds lean mass and it's like a really dry compound.
It doesn't make you watery. Also has a unique anti-catabolic effect.

Speaker 1 So you don't, in a deficit, you keep muscle and sometimes even grow while you're cutting.

Speaker 1 And it's, yeah, so it's not like steroids don't all do that to some degree, more or less, but this drug is like uniquely potent in its anti-catabolic action to where you could be like extremely nutrient deprived and still hold on to a lot of your muscle.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 1 And because it's so good at making you extremely strong too, without an excess of body weight, it's like highly sought after in many sports because you don't have to worry about jumping up in weight class while you're getting the strength increase that is like humongous.

Speaker 1 Wow. Yeah.
So it was one of the drugs that was used in the Duchess Cocktail, which is what Rod Chankov would have his athletes swish around in their mouth. Oh, really?

Speaker 1 Yeah, and it was absorbed bucally.

Speaker 1 So it would like get, it was almost like the equivalent of IVing the drug right into your bloodstream You would swish it around your mouth in this alcohol and it would absorb bucoli into the bloodstream immediately so you wouldn't have to actually have it go into your stomach and then get processed through a first-pass metabolism so you could get it in and out of your system way faster.

Speaker 2 Wow. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 2 So why is that one good for fighters?

Speaker 2 I would think that like getting

Speaker 2 emotional though.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you could argue that the emotional instability is not good. Yeah.
But paranoia makes you very aggressive.

Speaker 1 The psychoactive effects in the gym can be very helpful for training and stress resilience. And some people, it's not everyone who becomes paranoid on it.
It's highly individual dependent.

Speaker 1 Some people, you will often hear people say, oh, people overblow the side effects of trend. It's not that bad.
And then other people who will say it ruined their life.

Speaker 1 So it's highly individual dependent like any drug.

Speaker 1 But it's very good at making you extremely fucking strong without blowing you up with water retention and staving off loss of tissue while weight cutting as well.

Speaker 2 There's another factor that comes with steroid users, and that's the addiction to the feeling of being on steroids. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Because once they get off steroids and they don't feel like Superman anymore, they get real weirded out. Yeah.
And they want to get back on again. I've seen that.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, dude. It's

Speaker 1 the thing that will often kill people is the desire to maintain these huge sizes in perpetuity, too.

Speaker 1 ultimately steroid use often stems from like body image insecurity.

Speaker 1 So if you achieve the outcome you sought with this thing, to think that you're going to be, you know, a confident person after you've lost the 30, 40 pounds of lien that you gained. Right.

Speaker 1 Like you were already probably somewhat mentally not perfect to begin with.

Speaker 2 Except Dorian Yates. Oh, yeah, but he's guys, he's a unique cat.
Yeah, he's lost all the way. He looks like a normal athlete now.

Speaker 1 Yeah. He's healthy.
Yeah, he had me on his podcast this year, and he said

Speaker 1 anytime he's done seminars and people ask if he misses being a mass monster, he says they're more upset about it than I am.

Speaker 1 He has a unique perspective on it, which is really cool to see.

Speaker 2 He's very intelligent. Yeah.
Yeah. Very calm.
And, you know, just the way he approaches things. But God damn, dude, when that guy was getting after it,

Speaker 2 he was one of the original freaks. Where one of the first guys were just like, what? Like, that's what they're pushing it to now?

Speaker 1 Yeah, you left humanity behind. He was so big, dude.

Speaker 2 He was so big. He was ridiculous.
If you think about what he looked like versus what Arnold looked like just a couple of decades earlier,

Speaker 2 night and day.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you could argue he was like the catalyst almost to a heightened standard of amount of muscle you need to be competitive.

Speaker 2 I mean, he was so big he blew his bicep out and competed in one with a torn bicep.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 With like a hole in his arm.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's fucked up.

Speaker 1 When you get that big and you have to like worry about exploding your fucking muscle every workout because you're so strong and that's what you need to lift to get the stimulus.

Speaker 1 Like that's crazy stuff.

Speaker 2 Well, Ronnie Coleman's the crazy example of the price you pay for that. Like that guy's all fucked up now.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. It makes you wonder if he would have been the bodybuilder he was if he just trained higher volume and like used higher reps, less weight.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Because literature now suggests that you don't need to necessarily train like that.

Speaker 2 Look at the difference between the two of them. Yeah.
Arnold on the left and Dorian on the right. Dorian's twice the size.
Yeah. His fucking back, dude.
That's crazy. That back isn't.

Speaker 2 Not that Arnold isn't insane. He was fucking pretty insane.
I actually think Arnold looks better.

Speaker 1 Yeah, he's more aesthetic for sure. Oh, look at his back.

Speaker 2 Look at Dorian Yates' back. And look at Ronnie Coleman's back.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Jeez, these guys were huge. Ronnie Coleman was crazy, but Dorian was like weirdly thick.
Like, look how thick his fucking muscles are, man. It's just not.

Speaker 2 First of all, judging guys that are that big, good luck. I don't get it.
They all look awesome. They all look crazy.

Speaker 1 Dude, it's even harder. Judging a bikini show.
So there's different classes at the Olympia, including women's bikini. And there's like a few poses.

Speaker 1 They'll pull up a comparison of the women's Olympia for bikini.

Speaker 2 What is the bikini versus regular Olympia?

Speaker 1 Well, it's just like the best bikini competitors against each other for the Olympia crown of bikini category.

Speaker 2 What's the bikini category versus the regular Miss Olympia category?

Speaker 1 Miss Olympia is like bodybuilding.

Speaker 2 Oh, this is in bodybuilding?

Speaker 1 Well, it's like a form of bodybuilding, but it's not the actual category.

Speaker 2 Right. This is women who still look feminine.

Speaker 1 So like, right, put it this way, with men, there's different categories. There's open men's bodybuilding, classic physique, and men's physique.

Speaker 1 And each of them has like an incremental, noticeable difference in the amount of muscle you need to be competitive.

Speaker 1 And in women, similar differences exist in categories where they have women's bikini, wellness, something else.

Speaker 1 And then bodybuilding is the one where you pretty much need to be on like male-level steroids to be competitive.

Speaker 2 And this is a reality of female bodybuilding, that a lot of female bodybuilders, look, I know female jiu-jitsu competitors that take steroids, which is

Speaker 2 crazy. There's not even any money in that.

Speaker 2 You're juicing yourself up. But if you want to get that lean and maintain that much muscle as a woman, like what do they take?

Speaker 1 Well, for bikini, you might be able to do it naturally, but most of them are probably still taking a little bit something, but it's not like masculinizing.

Speaker 1 There's a lot of things they can take that are natural or over-the-counter or like super micro-dosed amounts of anabolics that don't cause masculinization.

Speaker 1 But above that, the thresholds for categories above that are like...

Speaker 1 If you go to women's bodybuilding, it looks like you remember it, where it's, you know, dudes with wigs on, basically, almost.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, they've they're trans men, basically, basically, yeah.

Speaker 1 Like, like, based on their hormone profile, they are more male than you and I, probably. Whoa, god, look at that lady, that's crazy.

Speaker 2 Is she Miss Olympia?

Speaker 2 She's number one.

Speaker 1 That's women's physique, too. That's not women's bodybuilding.
What? Yeah, so this is like a different category that's less muscle than bodybuilding.

Speaker 2 So, what's women's bodybuilding? That lady?

Speaker 1 Probably.

Speaker 2 Who's Miss Olympia?

Speaker 1 Do they still have women's bodybuilding? I think they do.

Speaker 2 Hmm. Yeah, that might be it.
Look at that lady down in the lower left-hand. Jesus, those ladies are huge.
Oh, my goodness. That's got to be it.
Those are dudes. That's a dude's body.
Like, size-wise.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Not saying you're a dude, ladies.
Yeah. Don't hurt me.

Speaker 1 Yeah, by the way,

Speaker 1 more power to anybody who wants to do whatever they want. It's just like the reality of the exposure to these hormones is they are masculinizing, and you can blame Biden for that.
Wow.

Speaker 1 Yeah, because he stopped the development of them. And by now, we probably have non-masculinizing drugs that work as well as the ones that make you a dude.
Oh, my God.

Speaker 2 Have you ever thought about bailing out of Canada?

Speaker 1 Dude, I would love to. I've considered it, but there's weird stuff around like unrealized capital gains and exit taxes and shit that basically traps you there.
Really? Yeah.

Speaker 1 So like I could physically be present in the States and live here maybe for six months of a year, but to like get out of the system fully, you got to like pay the piper on every company you've ever built, even if you don't have the money from it because you never sold it.

Speaker 1 There's gains that were made in Canada of the value of it that you have to pay on. It's like, how do you pay for it? I don't have any fucking cash because I didn't sell the company.

Speaker 2 So they make it very difficult to leave the country.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
And maybe that changes with Pierre. I don't know.
But like one of the main problems with the economy is there's no incentive for business owners that are doing well to stay.

Speaker 1 Like everything is structured around how do I get around this fucking system, not how do I stay here.

Speaker 1 So like I know personally, every friend I have that is successful has either already left or has tried to find a way to leave.

Speaker 1 Actually, I know one person who hasn't, but he's like, really entrenched in the system and like it would be impossible to unwind at this point. So I I don't know how much of it is

Speaker 1 he actually wants to be there, or like it's a beautiful place to live in British Columbia, for example, but like,

Speaker 1 yeah, it's fucking cost of living is obscene and the taxes.

Speaker 2 I saw that some kids were doing a TikTok with food at a Canadian supermarket, like a bunch of chicken wings, and how much it was.

Speaker 1 Oh, the dollar, too, is horrible. It's like a dollar, every dollar in U.S.
currency equates to 140 Canadian. Whoa, yeah, so your dollar goes super far in Canada.

Speaker 1 And then 40, Jesus. And then to buy like, I don't know,

Speaker 1 a shitty shack fucking house that's not even a house in Vancouver, it's like millions of dollars. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Nuts. Yeah.
Yeah. I think the cost of living is only exceeded maybe in real estate by like New York, maybe.

Speaker 1 Wow. Yeah.
It's like one of the worst offenders on the planet for cost of a home.

Speaker 1 So basically, back in the day, our parents, one of the main ways to become financially stable was get in early on a property and build equity in it.

Speaker 1 And eventually you'd have, you know, something that accrued in so much value from since you got it that like that's your main nest egg or whatever. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Nowadays, it's not even possible to afford the lowest threshold of a mortgage on like a

Speaker 1 place that's not even nice. So you have like families staying in like 500 square foot apartments with big families because they can't afford anything.

Speaker 2 It says impossibly unaffordable housing report ranks Vancouver third most expensive in the world.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Hong Kong and Sydney are the only place.

Speaker 2 Wow. Sydney.
That's interesting. Huh.
I would have never suspected Sydney, Australia to be that expensive. That's nuts.
Yeah. Oh, listen, brother.

Speaker 2 Anything else you want to talk about before we bail out of here? I think it was a good one. Yeah, it was a lot of fun.

Speaker 1 Yeah, thanks for having me, man. I appreciate you.
What's that, Jamie?

Speaker 1 Miss Olympia wellness we missed out on.

Speaker 2 What's that?

Speaker 1 A focus on the lower body.

Speaker 2 What? Oh, butts. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Top half doesn't matter. Oh, yeah.
So I was going to say.

Speaker 2 Top half doesn't matter for real? Yeah. Shut the fuck up.

Speaker 2 Why are they standing face forward?

Speaker 1 Glutes and hips.

Speaker 2 Let's see them glutes.

Speaker 1 It definitely

Speaker 1 matters, but not as much as... Yeah, it's not focus, I should say.
Yeah. So

Speaker 1 anyway, watching the posing groups.

Speaker 1 You were saying it's hard to judge men's bodybuilding.

Speaker 1 With women, it's at least with the bikini category, especially, their hair is really long and they have extensions too to make it look even longer.

Speaker 1 So when they turn around, basically the only thing you can judge is like ass down, essentially, because their whole back is covered by hair. Oh, that's weird.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 So it's like a pageant for your butt.

Speaker 2 I'm all in.

Speaker 1 No, I could, by the way, like any bikini competitor is probably fucking furious with that statement. There's absolutely.
Well, they're on trend.

Speaker 2 They're going to get angry.

Speaker 1 Probably not. But like, they're judged judged on other things, but that's the main factor.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay. All right, man.

Speaker 2 Well, been a lot of fun. More

Speaker 2 plates, more dates on YouTube. What is your website?

Speaker 1 Yeah, moreplatesmoredates.com. Anything else? No, that's it.

Speaker 2 Makes sense. All right.
My place, brother.

Speaker 1 Hope you'll see you. All right.
All right, everybody.