544. When the Right Goes Too Far | Dr. James Lindsay

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Everyone has their own destiny.

Everyone.

So what are you in trouble for now?

The woke, right?

It's a fraught term, right?

Because you have woke, which they associate with left.

You have right, which they associate obviously with the right.

And so now you've got a paradox.

It's troublesome for those with a conservative bent to throw away the idea of institutional legitimacy.

The only possible antidote to really unrestrained investigation.

The idea seems to be something like, the more radical the revolutionary precept, the more likely something Luciferian is behind it.

So now we're talking at a very abstract, I think metaphysical is the right word level for what represents woke.

This isn't going to be recognizable to your average Joe on the street who's dealing with a pride parade.

Yeah, and they are called pride parades.

They are called pride parades.

And the cardinal sin of Lucifer is pride.

Hello, everybody.

My guest today is James Lindsay, who's been a commentator on cultural affairs for, oh, a good 10 years, I suppose longer than that, but been well known for that long.

He was one of the people, along with Helen Pluckrose and others, who published a sequence of papers in radical journals that were

not genuine, let's put it that way.

And that was very scandalous.

It was part of an attempt to expose the pathology of the

pathology that had set into certain aspects of the academic institutions.

And it's become much more widespread now.

James has got himself in trouble in recent months, once again, for popularizing the phrase woke right by accusing or pointing out, depending on your perspective,

the fact that various members of the so-called right are engaging in shenanigans that are very much reminiscent of those that characterize the radical left.

And so that's what we talk about today: the nature of the woke right.

I discussed the overlap between such behavior and classification of psychopathology with James, the relationship between woke behavior, mobbing, extreme perspectives, self-victimization,

protest, gaming the system, and cluster B psychopathology, narcissism, histrionic behavior, borderline, antisocial, and the dark tetrad.

And

we attempted to determine how our views align and how they differ.

And, well, it's a walk through the dark side of ideology.

So join us for that.

Nice to see you, Dr.

Lindsay.

It's good to see you, Dr.

Peter.

It's been two years, eh?

It's been two years.

Yeah.

So what are you in trouble for now?

The woke right.

Lay it out, man.

It's a fraught term, right?

People see it as paradoxical because you have woke, which they associate with left.

You have right, which they associate, obviously, with the right.

And so now you've got a paradox.

And so I've caused myself some trouble by calling a radical segment, not the whole right, a radical segment of the right, woke right,

which I kind of started doing, I guess, last fall, September.

I really came, I started using it before that, the term.

I didn't invent the term.

A lot of people accuse me of inventing the term or credit me with it.

This term has been in rough circulation, floating around in the internet space for at least since the middle of 22.

So it's not a brand new term.

I just adopted it and went kind of hard about it.

And the simplest explanation I give people for, well, what do you mean by woke right?

How does that that make sense?

And I say, well, it's woke people who call themselves conservatives.

And some of them don't, though.

They call themselves right-wing.

And they distinguish that conservatives and right-wing are different.

But it's woke people.

So the whole suite of behaviors, beliefs,

even the deep metaphysical constructs underneath those beliefs.

And as you recently pointed out, I think the psychology that generates those beneath all of that, the cluster B personality disorders are presenting, and the psychopathologies,

psychopathy itself, sometimes, all of that kind of feeds upward into this concept of woke, which I think we can talk pretty fruitfully about.

But I don't believe it can only be presented through left-wing causes.

You can present it in terms of right-wing causes or religious causes or other causes because it's the pathological expression of an ideology or of a belief structure that ultimately is woke.

And so this term has confused people.

It's angered people.

I decided to try to put

angered.

Well, this is the thing.

This is what has, I'll use this word, this is a heavy word for the beginning of a conversation, but this is what has dismayed me.

I knew it would anger the people that it applies to, in my opinion, because who would want to be called woke right, first of all?

And second of all, it limits their ability to interact because they have a label that's not a good label that sticks to them.

But what what I'm dismayed over is that almost the, I hate to use this word so glibly, but what I refer to sort of as a bookmark as elite MAGA or

the more

who's who of the conservative movement seems entirely captured by this as well.

And they also became upset, saw me as a turncoat and a traitor against the movement.

One of the things that I think, tell me what you think about this, but I don't think we should name any names in this podcast if that's okay with you that's totally fine okay we can talk about why that is as we progress okay good good I mean I wasn't going to make that a cut-and-dried rule but I have my reasons so you just refer to

some comments I made on Fox News and also to some degree on Rogan

talking about, and I've actually written a fair passal on this.

You know, there's been this idea that the extremes of political belief meet, hey?

Yeah.

And so let's hash that out a little bit.

You seem to find useful or possibly accept this additional diagnostic distinction,

which would be cluster B or dark Tetrat.

That's right.

I actually wrote about this.

I don't know if you know, in 2020.

That specifically.

In December, yes, in 2020,

I called the article something like Psychopathy and the Origins of Totalitarianism.

And I published that at the end of December of 2020.

I put forth the hypothesis, which of course I got from somewhere else, in significant part.

I had read that infamous, quirky, but I think important book, Political Ponyology.

Yes.

Is that Lubachevsky or something like this, is that name?

They're the author.

I had read that and found it striking.

And at the same time, almost, I think, sometimes, you know, a chapter here, a a chapter there.

I read a very, I think, one of the most important essays in English, which is Joseph Pieper's Abuse of Language, Abuse of Power.

I don't know if you've heard of this.

Joseph Pieper was a Catholic, and he had some, he wrote this, I don't know what else he did, honestly.

I should probably look into it, but he wrote this essay, Abuse of Language, Abuse of Power, and talked about how tyrants arrange

an abused version of the prevailing language to mislead people

into their tyrannical program.

And it's in two sections, two parts.

It's been five years since I've read it, so forgive the details.

But there's a sense two chapters to this long essay.

And one of the two is very Catholic in its orientation, and one of them is this more general thesis.

And it was extremely interesting.

But of course, in political punerology, you also have the discussion of the importance of language, which of course we were seeing with the social justice woke movement as well, that they're misusing words like racism very blatantly.

And so

in political ponyology, you have this claim he makes that he says, well, with the psychopath, what he calls a pathocracy, what you have is you have people who are psychologically disordered, who create a vision of the world.

They need other people to play in it.

And the way that they do this is by creating, he calls it a second language.

So it's the same language, but the words now refer to other things.

Of course, having read the postmodernists like Derrida, I'm picturing all of that.

That's what happens in the Tower of Babel.

That's right.

That's right.

That's exactly right.

Remember, words lose their meaning and no one can understand.

That's right.

Nobody can understand each other.

So they reorient the discourses, and then what he says actually solves the tyrannical problem.

This is Lobachevsky's, if I'm saying his name is right,

his thesis.

What solves it is that a third language evolves that unmasks the second language and allows people to see it for what it is and, in fact, laugh at it.

And so this is what takes it apart.

So I read these two essays, and I'm taken taken in by them.

Of course, I'd been reading the postmodern literature quite a lot.

I had been reading Lyotard, the postmodern condition, and he has this very confusing, they're all very confusing sections throughout the whole book, this very confusing section about this thing called legitimation by pyrology, that he accuses all.

all knowledge-seeking enterprises, including the sciences, of being legitimation by pyrology.

And there's this story that goes along where he's teaching legitimation by pyrology to his students at some point.

Or no, somebody's teaching Lyotard to their students, a philosophy professor, and says, okay, so what do you think legitimation by pyrology means?

And everybody comes up with crazy ideas because you can barely get it from the text.

And finally, the professor says it means

false legitimation through consensus.

You get everybody to agree.

Okay.

And so I framed out this essay in terms of saying that what the

pathocracy or the pathological ideological state, which becomes a vehicle for that pathology, that serves the psychopaths at the center of it.

The way that it operates is it generates a parology, a second false logic that defines the ideology and a paramorality, a second false set of values and virtues that also defines the parameters, the social parameters and the psych, the psychosocial parameters.

How do I know if I'm a good person?

How do I fit in with my society?

And so I write this long essay.

My poor assistant, I got in trouble for this.

I had him publish it on Christmas.

I was so excited about it.

Christmas Day, we put this out.

And, you know, a very long essay explaining that this is what I see as at the root, because I was trying to diagnose and explain to people what nobody was calling woke yet at the time at the end of 2020, or maybe we had just begun to call woke.

We were trying to diagnose and explain this social justice left phenomenon.

And so I put out this essay and said, I think at the root, underneath the whole thing, there is the same psychopathologies that motivated people like Lenin and Stalin and all this.

And I didn't have the psychological chops.

I was aware of

dark triad or tetrad terminology.

I did know quite a bit about the cluster B personality disorders

because I knew some people who

were

basically rabid feminists in the 2010s and they were all talking about how they had various schizoidal personality or, and that one may be cluster A.

I'm not sure.

And then they had the, you

borderline, antisocial, histrionic,

narcissistic would come up again and again.

And I think that actually is,

tell me, is paranoid's cluster C, right?

My reading, for example, of Derek Bell, one of the founders of critical race theory, is that he

very likely suffered both paranoia and schizoidia,

which are both mentioned by...

by Lubachevsky as well as indicative.

I can't say any about any of the cluster Bs.

So I think it's a little broader than just that one cluster up here.

Conspiracy theories are paranoid thinking, for example.

Yeah, yeah, right.

And schizoids tend to have imaginary conversations with people who aren't there on a childish fictional level.

They're pretending the world is the way that it should have been for their emotions when they were nine years old.

That's the split, the schiz in the schizoidal.

And so they write these elaborate stories about how the world's supposed to be, and then they have outbursts when the world doesn't match that.

And Derek Bell was famous for writing these missives where he would present them as evidence of racism at, say, at Harvard, where he had an imaginary conversation with a dean and then would write the whole imaginary conversation down.

And I'm thinking, this is so disordered, not just disordered thinking, but this is psychologically disordered, that you would then present this hypothetical conversation as evidence.

But at any rate,

for a long time, I've thought that's there.

Okay, so

let's lay down some

theses and

tell me what you think of them.

So the first is that

about 4 to 5% of the population, maybe more,

has

dark tetrad cluster B traits to some significant degree.

Okay, and so that was histrionic, narcissistic, antisocial,

and psychopathic, right?

That's the cluster B cluster.

Whether those are psychopathologies, like illnesses, that's a matter of dispute.

They're certainly forms of severe

social misbehavior,

manipulative social misbehavior.

Yes.

And people who fall into those categories will use cries of victimization to parasitize.

Yes.

So they're parasitizing on empathy.

That's one hallmark.

They have disordered interpersonal relationships, often very intense.

They're predatory, particularly the antisocial types.

That's more straight repetitive criminals.

Very stable pattern of behavior.

So let's say 4% to 5%.

It's probably increased because of the net.

That would be my guess, because it's not well regulated on the net, because most of our evolved mechanisms for dealing with such people don't work, especially we could talk about anonymity, because I can understand why people defend it, but by the same token,

it allows you to escape from your well-deserved reputation.

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Yeah.

Right.

Okay, so that's years ago, by the way, you said that one of the features, you got in trouble for this, and you were right, of course.

But you said one of the features of our moment was that there's male aggression and female aggression that express themselves differently.

And male aggression, I don't know if you use this terminology, but I think it's something to this effect, doesn't upload very well.

You can't punch somebody in the nose through the screen.

But female aggression, the social aggression, uploads very well.

But what it turns out is this

cluster B or dark Tetrad manipulation uploads almost even better.

Yes.

Yes.

You can have 50 accounts.

You can switch from one to the other.

You can create entire false environments that your targets have to engage in.

It's particularly true because it's literally cost-free.

Yeah.

Right.

So you might imagine that any storehouse of value is likely to be parasitized to the degree that you can invade it for no cost.

Yeah, that's totally

right.

Okay, so this is what I think happened to the universities, right?

Is that they're whale carcasses and they've been invaded by parasites.

And the whale carcass idea is a very old one.

It's a huge storehouse of value, right?

So since World War II, the West was on a pretty productive

trajectory, and we generated massive storehouses of value in many, many places.

Those would be financial storehouses, but reputational storehouses even more, that's even more germane.

Like Harvard has both.

It did have both, right?

$53 billion

plus a stellar reputation.

Yeah, the best brand in America.

Exactly.

And

next to Disney.

Yeah, right.

Right.

Which is another storehouse of value that's been severely parasitized.

Okay, so

now

that's two things.

There's 5% of the population.

Oh, yes, the dark tetrad types are

narcissistic, Machiavellian.

So they use language only as a means to manipulate towards instrumental ends.

There's no communicative intent.

It's all essentially status gaming.

They're psychopathic, and that means they're predatory parasites.

And then they had to top it all off with sadism.

And I think that's what changed the dark triad to the dark tetrad.

And I think the reason for that is that if you have a dark triad orientation towards the world, and the world turns against you, it makes you so angry because you're rejected and

unsuccessful that

expresses itself in positive delight in the unnecessary suffering of others.

So this is dark material.

Now,

there's no reason to assume that the cluster B dark tetrad types would do anything other than gravitate towards storehouses of value.

First of all, the parasite problem is a very deep problem biologically, right?

It's so deep that some people think sex evolved to solve it.

You mix the genes, it's harder for parasites to move down the generations, right?

So that's actually one of the canonical theories for the evolution of sex itself.

Why would you take a 50% hit in terms of genetic transmission when you could just clone yourself?

Well, the parasites can breed, multiply faster than you can, and so they have the upper edge in a lengthy battle.

So you mix up the genes and it.

Anyways, so the parasite problem is a very old problem.

Okay, so I want to add one more thing to that.

So imagine that a system of knowledge is a way of representing the world and navigating in it.

Okay, so that would be, that would be like a scientific theory or an engineering theory, right?

And so you might be able to assess that theory on the grounds of objective fact, say.

Okay, but then imagine that there's a different form of language game.

And that is that you

you orient yourself with a lot of you bring a lot a number of people together and you lay out some game rules they could be religious axioms in fact i think religious axioms are game rules i think that's the right way to think about it but it could be political right so communism a pseudo-religion has game rules axioms that you have to accept and so does conservatism these are these are

games that can integrate a large number of people.

Okay, so that's a slightly different function, right?

Because now

it's like if you and I decide to play basketball,

we're going to produce a hierarchy within that set of rules, right?

Whatever set of rules you lay out, people are going to be differentially able at implementing.

That's right.

Right?

Any set of rules.

That's right.

So for example,

if you were in a gym and you had school children roll,

And you had a competition, you'd get a hierarchy of rolling speed.

And then the top rollers would be the high status people within that game.

So

you can organize systems of knowledge so that they're ground rules for a game, and then you produce a hierarchy.

Now, hierarchical position has value.

So

the higher you are in the social hierarchy, the more positive emotion you feel.

and the less negative emotion and the less likely you are to perish.

Partly because you have social capital and social support.

So people will compete for status within the confines of any given hierarchical game.

That's a whole different function than representation of the world.

Now, maybe you'd hope that your game represents the world too, which I suppose is that would be something like competition in a scientific lab.

Right?

Because

something like that.

Something like that.

Or yeah,

competition within a game that's actually productive and self-sustaining.

Yeah.

Right.

And the axioms of Western culture seem to be a game like that.

They do.

Right, right.

Now, okay, having established that,

you can game it.

Yeah, of course.

Right.

And so that seems to be, okay, so we agree on so far, we there's nothing in that that you think is objectionable?

No, nothing.

No, that's right.

I think that's exactly right.

And it's, it's a good way to look at it.

And I think it opens a door to how this becomes woke

in a particular way if we get very, very general.

Because if you actually want to know the controversy about woke right, what's happened, Eric Weinstein told me this, and always we're not going to name names, but it's positive.

He told me that what he realized, and of course, he's a mathematician as well, and I'm a mathematician.

So he said,

he told me this at ARC, actually.

We were having a conversation, and he said, when I realized what you've done is generalize the concept of woke and then applied it in a different domain, it clicked.

So it's no longer, you know, just left-wing, you know,

totalitarian behavior.

It's now this mode of totalitarian behavior that I can apply in the case.

Transferable.

Correct.

And so with the hierarchy,

not just the hierarchy, everything you just described, but you have these reservoirs of value and hierarchies built off of these games.

So there's value there, and the parasite is drawn to the reservoir of value.

Wherever it is.

And the idea is that you want to be high status, but they have natural limitations because they're not

competent they're not competent yeah they're they're they're they're outside of the range of what brings you to the top of these

they tend to be very low in conscientiousness they tend to be that's right right and so

what you would do

what you you would do is try to there's a word for what you would try to create as the parasite who's now latched on the thing you would try to there's different if you want to talk about it in politics there's one word and if you want to talk in religion or more generally there's another the general word or the the religious word is cult you'll create a cult where you've taken a variation on those rules to where there's a new status game that's rigged so you're always on top of it yep and what you're going to do is pervert the underlying rules we call that an ideology or a cult doctrine the word uh in in politics would be splinter a splinter movement within a broader movement so maga is a political movement and you can imagine a splinter off of it where the democratic party had a political movement and the justice democrats came along 10 years ago and made a splinter off of it that created the squad.

A lot of people know that history, at least, so it should be, you know, germane.

So the generation of a localized cult is sort of this hypothesis.

And the ideology grows out of the desire for the people at the top of that who are parasitizing the hierarchy to create their kind of internal nested hierarchy where they're on top of the whole thing.

And the way they do that is by saying the big system is gamed.

The big system is rigged.

The big system is fake.

And we have a secret truth about how things really work.

And now you enter into the Gnostic kind of,

I don't know, even metaphysical space.

You know, the ancient Gnostic religions, whether against Judaism or Christianity, all held out that Yahweh, the character, the creator God of

Genesis, was in fact a demon.

who had tricked everything.

He wasn't the actual highest, unknowable God.

He was this low-level, you know, functionary God who said, you know, I'm going to rule over all this stuff.

I'm going to imprison them in this, you know, wonderful garden.

And then, whoops, they disobeyed me and almost realized the game by eating from the forbidden tree.

So now we're going to throw them out into a real prison.

And they've been, in the Heideggerian sense, they've been flung.

Their being has been flung into a world they didn't choose in which they suffer.

And you get the whole Gnostic architecture.

But this, the way that Gnosticism attracts is by saying, and I can make this kind of literal to things that are happening in our world if we have to, is that the authorities in the existing game know so much, but they don't want you to know everything.

They don't want you to know more because you might surpass them.

They're trying to keep you down.

But if you come with me and my cult, I'll tell you the real stuff.

That's partly that's an appeal to paranoia, too.

Sure.

And that's going to be more effective under conditions of extreme uncertainty.

Sure.

Okay, so let's concretize this a little bit.

Sure.

I'd like to talk about, we can talk about Douglas and Joe.

Sure.

I think

let's amend our rule.

We're not going to point any fingers at woke right people.

But I'd like to talk about the current situation.

Yeah, the situation and the ideas, I think, are important.

Well, you know, Douglas's point with regard to Joe was that it's

troublesome for those with a conservative bent to

throw away the idea of institutional legitimacy.

And

that's a fair comment, standalone comment.

Joe's rebuttal to that, insofar as he had a rebuttal, because I thought the conversation was actually pretty civil given how difficult it was, was that the institutions have been so cataclysmically faulty in the last 10 years that the only possible

antidote to

their falseness is

really unrestrained investigation.

And Joe's been a master of unrestrained investigation, obviously, because he's allowed his interest to take him wherever it goes, which,

allied with a certain amount of conscience, is a pretty good orienting function as far as I'm concerned.

And I'm at a loss to some degree how to reconcile those viewpoints because

I think

it is a cataclysm that the

institutions have become unreliable.

But let's walk through them a little bit.

I think the universities are gone.

Me too.

I think that Harvard is having this war with Trump and that Trump is 100% right.

Yep, me too.

The president of Harvard, in my understanding,

said to the Trump administration that it was unfair to punish the researchers by withholding their research funds.

But I look at that and I think those researchers have been filling out DEI statements for 10 years.

So as far as I'm concerned, they lost all their credibility.

They're not independent researchers at all.

And

they could say and have said that they were just following the rules.

It's like

that's not a pretty, very good excuse if you're a seeker after after knowledge, right?

If the rules have become pathological, you have an obligation to cease following them.

Harvard took its DEI head, I think it was Harvard,

and changed, kept the person and changed the name.

Well, that's what's that all the universities are going to do that.

Yeah, that's right.

Why wouldn't they?

And it's just fundamentally deceitful.

More deceitful even.

It's another form of mimicry.

And I guess that's another thing we could point out about the psychopathic five percent is that they're masters of camouflage yeah like yeah what a psychopath does is mimic competence right that's right and usually they can't get away with it because not for long because they

they they don't create they destroy and eventually that evidence accrues and then they have to leave and find another host, so to speak.

Now online, that's a snap, right?

Because you can just switch help.

Exactly.

You can just switch your identity and you've solved the problem, or you can multiply it beyond.

And then there's a bot problem online, too.

Tremendous bot problem.

Yeah, yeah.

We've tracked some of that.

And for some of these discussions about the woke right, 30% of the comments are bots.

Yeah, right.

So, right.

So, so that means we're automating the psychopathy.

Like, I've thought for a long time, and I do think this may be the case, that

virtualization enables psychopathy.

And if that's the case,

we're in trouble.

We're in big trouble.

Well, 50, at least 50% of internet traffic is criminal, right?

Oh, yeah.

It's 30%

pornography, which is close enough to criminal.

So I think distinguishing them is not useful.

And then,

like, old people are just scammed.

non-stop.

Non-stop.

Right.

And

so, and there's no policing.

and there can't be because you can hide so effectively.

Right.

So, and then it's what it seems to happen is that the unrestrained psychopathy spills over into the public domain and everyone is mad, like in both senses, angry and insane because of it.

Let's return just for a moment to the hierarchy idea.

So, you pointed out one interesting mechanism of attaining status, status, which is to twist the rules slightly, create a new game, and dominate that as its originator.

That's a

transformation of a process that's actually creative and adaptive, right?

Because if I wanted to make a variation of a business, I could do that.

And then if I served my customers well and so forth, I could climb to the top of that new business niche and succeed.

This is the parasitical equivalent to that.

It's to what?

To generate a version that does nothing but attract unwarranted attention.

That would be the narcissistic spin.

And to use any means whatsoever to attract that attention.

While directing blame to the parent structure.

I think that's very important.

So, for example, with Karl Marx, he phrased his vision of communism.

It wasn't the crude communism that was experimented with by Gracchus Babouf in the French Revolution.

It was a transcendent communism.

And I use that word because he doesn't call it transcendent communism.

He calls it communism.

But what he says, his exact wording for it is, is it's communism as the positive transcendence of private property as human self-estrangement and thus a complete return of man to his true nature as a human or social being.

Right.

We'll be right back, but first, here's a sneak peek at the member exclusive portion of this episode.

What the hell is going on?

I mean, the left is doing what the left does.

The issue is never the issue.

We're trying to tear apart society, gain advantage, the whole thing.

Everything they did with critical race theory, queer theory, you name it, they're doing it now with this new issue.

They're saying Israel is bad and the Jews are a problem.

That doesn't play well with mainstream America, so very plausible that this is coming from foreign adversaries.

China's behind it, let's say.

Qatar's behind it.

2018, the Wall Street Journal publishes an article: 250 mega-influencers are on the payroll of Qatar, trying to influence Trump's policy.

Do you think they stop?

Well, it's certainly in Iran's interest.

The Iranians would sacrifice every single Palestinian in a second.

They're just cannon fodder.

I mean, it's obvious that Iran is funding Hamas.

Propaganda works.

Throwing the dust of moral confusion into the air blinds the eyes.

Say you tweet something that they like, doesn't matter that it's you.

They can blow it up.

They can put tons of bots behind it.

They can put lots of positive comments on it so that they can create an artificial environment.

This is such an ugly vision of the future.

Watch the full member exclusive session now on Daily Wire Plus.

So that's a Nietzschean revaluation of all values.

Yeah,

it's really...

It's much deeper than people think.

It's redistributing property.

It's to transcend property.

And so how does this turn into what I said is that the game, which at that point he's looking at, it doesn't matter if it's capitalism or feudalism or even slavery, it's the private property game that he believes is the course of history.

He says, well, everything is actually

that thing's fault.

And people who play that game are the people who are the problem.

And that's how he recruits.

He finds people who are losing within that game, who are being injured by that game, and says, you know what?

It's not you.

It's the whole bloody game.

Come over here.

We've got a different game.

But the trick is, who's at the top of that game?

With Karl Marx, it was Karl Marx.

It wasn't the people ever.

If you read it, you know, so what's Communist Manifesto?

We'll just break it down.

Chapter one,

Communist Manifesto is titled Bourgeois and Proletarians, Bourgeoisie and Proletarians.

So he describes the relationship between the people who are playing that game, the bourgeoisie, and then the proletarians who are the workers at the bottom who are making that game possible.

And he says, all you guys down at the bottom are getting...

exploited.

You're being alienated from who you really are.

You're alienated from your product.

Everything's terrible for you, and it's exploitation.

So the winners of that game can cheat you.

That's the relationship that he puts out.

Chapter two is communists and proletarians.

And he says, so it starts out brilliantly.

He says, so

what's the relationship between the communists and the proletarians or the workers' movements?

He says, we don't disagree with any of the workers' movements.

We actually are the highest expression of them.

So

we take their vision and put theory behind it and take it to a higher level of understanding.

And we're going to bring all you guys with.

And so naturally, naturally, what's going to happen?

So let's say he agitates the proletarians to revolt.

He's just said that the Shepherds are going to be the Communist Party.

And then who's going to run the Communist Party?

Karl Marx.

Yes.

So it's a whole thing is a giant scam to blame the existing system, to agitate a large group of people who aren't winning within that system, to switch games

with him at the very peak.

Okay, so to me,

I know that we've talked a little bit about religious matters, but I'm going to delve into that first.

Let me actually, before we

put a bookmark.

Yes.

Because Hitler did the exact same thing.

The exact same thing.

Mussolini did the exact same thing.

Hitler is much more clear.

He says, we had this German race.

And back in history, he writes this fictional mythological history of the Germans.

Some of it, if you read or see it, is just kind of humorously, transparently false about how great they were in antiquity and all of this.

So we've got these Germans, and they've got all this, you know, he's got this whole occult,

theosophical Aryan stuff that he's brought in from Helena Blavatsky and read The Secret Doctrine and all this weird, weird occultism he's attached to race.

And in Mein Kampf, second volume, chapter one, he talks about, well, the Nazis have a new world concept, Weltenschwam.

And that world concept will be the racial world concept.

Then he lays out how the state exists to preserve the race.

That's the point, because when you have the race, you have the people who will generate high culture.

And when you have the people who generate high culture, then you can advance society to its highest level of expression and man's highest level of expression.

Very progressive ideology.

But what he's saying is, we had this somewhere in this mythical, distant, foggy past, and we can recover it.

How?

By taking every step that we can to figure out the race and purify the race.

And guess what?

Everybody who's with me who wants Germany to be made great again after World War I and the ravages of the Treaty of Versailles as they saw it and the challenges that came with the post or the interwar period as we see see it now.

All you Germans who are mad at Europe and mad at the French and you're having a bad time, guess what?

There's a mythic Germany that you've lost and we can get it back.

Hey, come on, let's go.

And here's the ideology.

It's our racial world concept.

And here's how it's going to be organized, not with this.

you know, vanguard Bolshevik model over there that the communists use, but we're going to use what I call the Führer Princip, not me, Hitler called the Führer Princip, the leader principle.

Of course, who's the Führer?

Hitler.

So he's on top.

And it's this absolutely rigid, top-down pyramid of authority, which is a completely different expression.

That's what a Tower of Babel is.

That's exactly right.

Yeah, with the wrong thing at the top.

But it's the same program.

The game that we've now, it's not the game that we're all playing.

It's the game that we've been forced into by this rotten circumstance has dispossessed us from who we should be.

We're heritage Germans, for example, and we should have the benefits of our mastery of race.

But the problem is, in his sight.

It's very attractive to anyone who has nothing to offer but racial identity.

That's right.

That's right.

And two things, racial identity and obedience.

Maybe a modicum of cruelty as well.

Yeah, well, that comes along for the right.

It comes along for the right eventually.

Because a lot of the young Germans were actually inspired because they thought it was going to be good for the worker.

They were inspired by the socialism part of National Socialism and that it was going to be good for Germany.

And they loved their country and they wanted to see it great.

And so they were swept up.

The Hitler youth were swept up to get into this.

But it's the same program.

There's a game.

we were, we were used to be the masters of the game, but now we've been dispossessed from the game.

They threw us from top to bottom.

That was an intolerable experience.

By the way, this is all the story of Lucifer.

Yeah, he was cast to the bottom.

And so, what we're going to do now is we're going to grab our rightful inheritance and we're going to build the structure that returns us to it.

P.S.

The organizational structure is the Führer Principal, so I'm at the top.

Okay, so I want to talk about this Lucifer idea.

So, Lucifer is the morning star, and he's the angel of the untrammeled intellect.

That's how he's portrayed in Milton, right?

And he's allied in some strange way with the serpent in the Garden of Eden.

If I might just interject, if he's the morning star, what do you do in the morning?

After the morning star rises,

you wake up.

Right.

Woke.

Right, right, right.

The spirit of enlightenment.

Right.

Okay, so.

in.

Or dark enlightenment, as it were.

Yeah, right, absolutely.

Well, that's the question.

What's the difference between genuine?

What's the difference between what's genuine and what's false, let's say?

So in the story of Genesis, God tells Adam and Eve that they can pretty much have free reign, except for one thing.

They can't,

as far as I can tell, what it means is they can't take the right to define the moral order to themselves.

They have to abide by the moral order, that there's an intrinsic moral order that's grounded below nature, even, grounded in the principle of being itself.

They have to ally themselves with that.

But Eve, interestingly, Eve is tempted by the serpent.

Maybe her powers of discrimination are somewhat lacking.

Maybe her proclivity to empathy clouds her.

And maybe it's a form of feminine pride.

In any case,

the serpent tempts her, telling her that if she ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that she would become like God, which is the one thing God forbade.

So the idea seems to be something like the more radical the revolutionary precept, the more likely something Luciferian is behind it.

So it's a serpent in the garden, so it's clearly something poisonous, but then it gets weirdly associated with the idea of Lucifer, right?

Which is a very strange leap.

The leap is something like, what's the most poisonous of all possible serpents, right?

Then it becomes a meta-principle.

And it looks to me like it's something like the drive to power.

And that that fits well with the notion that, well, Marx would be on top of the communists and Hitler would be on top of the Nazis and Mussolini would be on top of the Italian fascists.

So if the belief system is pressed into the service of the hierarchical status of its originators, then there tends to be something profoundly Luciferian behind it.

Yes?

Yes.

So now we're talking at a very abstract, deep, whether metaphysical is, I think metaphysical is the right word level for what represents woke.

This isn't going to be like recognizable to your average Joe on the street who's dealing with a pride parade and saying, well, that's woke.

I understand woke.

Yeah, and they are called pride parades.

They are called pride parades.

And the cardinal sin of Lucifer is pride.

Is pride.

Right.

And the desire to replace God, to replace the fundamental moral order.

So I figured something else out, too, recently.

So imagine that you could found a society on power, because you can, at least for a short period of time, and imagine that you could organize a group of people

hedonistically as well.

So that would be the real dark side of populism, right?

We'll just have the government give people, it's like

Pleasure Island in the parochial video, right?

Bread and circuses.

You can get away with that for a while.

Power,

hedonism.

You can abandon everything and sink into a pit of nihilism.

That's not very effective psychologically or socially.

But then that begs the question that the postmodernists wrecked their ship on, I would say.

Is there a unifying principle, a high-order unifying principle?

That's the metanarrative idea, right?

Because the cardinal proclamation of postmodernism is that there's no pinnacle metanarrative.

There's no upper union.

But I think that's wrong.

I think that the principle of voluntary self-sacrifice is foundational.

And I think that's the narrative that runs through the biblical core.

You've given very, very eloquent speeches on that.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Well, and so then we would have a dynamic where one,

because we're trying to figure out how to identify the Luciferian players.

Let's see.

That seems reasonable.

Right.

So

they're in love with the creations of their own intellect, but that intellect is not serving the principle of voluntary self-sacrifice.

It's serving the principle of power.

Right.

You remember in the gospel account when Christ is in the desert, the third temptation that Satan lays before him is the temptation of power.

That's right.

Right.

Everything that you see before you.

Yes.

Matthew 4.

If you follow me.

That's right.

Right, right, right.

So that seemed, okay, so you don't have any problem with the underlying dynamic of that.

No, not at all.

No, not at all.

And I see, you know, a fruitful,

a fruitful discussion because, you know, this is, of course, very high-order thinking and expressing, but the experience for people on the ground is exactly what we were mentioning earlier.

It's those traits of the dark tetrad, like Machiavellianism and all of this.

So they're going to experience, what does that look like in everyday experience?

The swarms on social media, this cancel culture, the struggle session, you know, this kind of stuff, the lying in the middle of the cries of victimization, gaslighting and is the, you know, it's called sometimes Darvo, deny, attack, reverse the roles of victim and offender.

When you catch a psychopath out, they do a, it's an acronym DARVO.

They deny the.

There's a number of people operating like

everywhere.

And so these are the experiences.

So the expression that I could give to tie people just to bring woke right back to the conversation is we're familiar now with the machinations of woke left, right?

And what I would say is, well, what's woke right is same energy, different direction.

You have all of those same exact, whether it's Luciferian at the high level, whether it's struggle sessions, Machiavellianism,

it's like it's Luciferian at the core.

Then we've got the cluster B dark tetrab traits.

Then there's the mechanisms

described, right?

So that's a differentiated,

that gives us a way of identifying.

So if we use the kind of, you know, pop word of the day of, you know, vibes or energy, it's same energy, different direction.

This is exactly like what I was already saying with Marx versus fascism or communism versus fascism.

And we could go as weirdly deep as you want.

There's a few ways to get to it.

Like you say, well, obviously communism is kind of the arch progressive ideology, but I would disagree.

It's probably fascism.

But differently, communism was actually obsessed.

If you read Marx, he's obsessed.

What was this?

Well, the quote, positive transcendence of private property is human self-estrangement and therefore a complete return of man

to what?

His real true self.

It's obsessed with state of nature.

It's obsessed with we've been alienated all the way back.

to the beginning.

For him, private property marks the fall.

So the serpent came along and didn't offer an apple, but offered the fundamental right to exclude the private property.

But you have the same general concept.

So they're obsessed with looking all the way back to the state of nature.

Well, and that is also an unbelievably effective move on the psychopathic side because the basic criminal attitude is, and I've dealt with criminal types quite a lot.

It's pretty straightforward.

It's

it's perfectly fine for me to take what you have because you took it.

Yeah, that's right.

Right.

And so

you just nailed that perfectly.

That's exactly

property is theft.

As soon as property is theft,

the criminal is the

moral agent.

And that happened in the Soviet Union, right?

Because in the prisons, the criminals were treated as moral agents, whereas the political prisoners were treated as, you know, what would you say?

The kinds of heretics who deserve nothing but the longest possible sentence of death.

Right.

Right.

Because the criminals were victims.

If property is theft,

criminals are victims.

That's a hell of a satisfying outcome for the criminals.

That's right.

And so

what you have in that same paragraph, so you have Mark saying that what we're going to do is get back to our state of nature, but we're not going to go back.

It's not going back.

He's just discussed Babouf and the failure of the French Revolution commune model.

It was all low-end.

It was grubby.

It was dirty.

They had no high culture.

They had not the same as Hitler's interest.

No high culture.

He says this is wrong.

We're going to have a transcendence.

So we're not going to go back to state of nature.

We're going to transcend.

And all he's doing is rehashing Rousseau, which had passed through Hegel and Schiller.

And what Rousseau had said is we need to be, because he wanted to live a free, libertine lifestyle, not liberal, but libertine.

But he liked being a citizen, didn't he?

And so he wanted to savages made to live in cities.

That's, I mean, in the French, however, but that's what he literally called them.

Savages made to live in cities.

That's the completion of man.

The omega of man, alpha of man man is the primitive communist.

The omega of man is when you reach the point where you're the you have the same sharing attitude and liberated lifestyle as the beginning, but now you have all the high culture and benefits of all the production in between.

So it's a perfectly paradoxical and impossible thing, but Marx calls it the riddle of history solved that knows itself to be its own solution.

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And so that's

the alpha and the omega.

So that libertine offering is an interesting twist.

I've been trying to puzzle out.

I wrote this article with Jonathan Pagio on the scarlet beast of the apocalypse.

And it was really illuminating to me.

There's lots of book of Revelation.

I just don't understand, me and many other people.

But I understand some of it.

So the scarlet beast is the degenerate state.

So imagine that when a uniting principle disappears, so that would be the Nietzschean death of God,

you get the postmodern condition, which is that there's no uniting narrative.

And so, the state grows a lot of different heads.

It's kind of a hydra now.

It's collapsing into chaos, symbolically speaking.

It has a lot of different heads because nothing's uniting it.

And that's why it's blood-red because that's a very dangerous condition.

It's a fragmenting condition.

Okay, so that's the scarlet beast of the degenerate state.

This is a symbol of the end of times.

And I don't mean

the end of time per se.

This is a symbol of how things end, right?

Always.

Always.

Sure.

Yeah, no, that's right.

Right.

That's always.

Okay, fine.

So the state deteriorates till it's a multi-headed hydra.

Okay.

But then it has something on its back.

And

that's the heart of Babylon.

Yeah, the mother of all prostitutes.

So the idea there is that when the patriarchal

state or psyche loses its central function, female sexuality commoditizes, right?

And we can see that's like just happening everywhere right now.

OnlyFans is the greatest example of that.

That woman in Great Britain who's sleeping with like a hundred men a night, or I think she managed a thousand in a week, something like that.

I won't say her name, but

she's become very well known for the absolute outrageousness of her behavior.

Her mother is her business manager.

It's so awful that you just can't believe it.

Okay, so you have this

mother of all prostitutes.

So that's the central spirit of commoditized female sexuality.

That's going to happen when the state deteriorates.

Of course, female sexuality is going to commoditize when the state loses its protective and integrative function.

And so

she offers this libertine pleasure, right?

So you could think of power, that's a way that power, that's what power offers to those who are willing to use power.

It's like, why do you want control over someone?

Well, to have your way with them, obviously.

And there's going to be a sexual component to that.

That was certainly the case in Marx's own life, for example.

So you can imagine the fantasies that possessed him, too, would be, well, once we establish this new utopia, and the communists promised free love.

That's a common leftist,

as if it's love, which it isn't, and as if sex is free, which it never is.

What What happens at the end of the scarlet beast

whore of Babylon dichotomy, say, interaction is the beast kills the prostitute.

So that's perfect, right?

Because so the degenerate, the degenerative patriarchal state breeds the commoditization of female sexuality, but ultimately destroys all pleasure.

And I also think that's happening now.

I mean,

you have radically high rates of virginity, for example, among Japanese and South Koreans, and in the West more broadly, a breakdown, an apparent breakdown of the relationship between men and women, not least politically, right?

With the men starting to fly off into the conservative sphere of influence and the women becoming increasingly liberal.

So that's another

that it shows you the fact that these mythological tropes appear fitting shows you how deep the malaise is, right?

Sure.

The culture war is way deeper than the political.

And a vehicle to this is transgression, right?

Transgression of the existing order.

And transgression, I think, is such a key feature.

In fact, I've described recently a cult of transgression that you could easily describe on the woke left, right?

And it kind of fits my same energy, different direction, or same energy, opposite direction, because you see with both of these two wokes, but also other,

these kind of degenerate

ideologies and

psychosocial dynamics, you have this cult of transgression where the way, it's like the payment to be in the cult is to transgress a little further.

You start with, oh, yeah, well, we need LGBT representation.

Okay, well, you've already transgressed because the T is different from the LGB.

It's completely different.

It refers to

trying to work out a disintegration of the compensation of transgression.

Well, there's nothing about, there's nothing in lesbian, gay, or bisexual that is a disintegrated psychology.

There's something fundamental in the transition that's a disintegrated psychology.

If you have gender dysphoria, if we admit that that's even real, you have a disintegrated psychology.

Your phenomenology of self and your ontology of self are out of whack.

And in fact, what they do then is that once it gets out of whack, they invert it.

And they put this phenomenology first and say the ontology has to follow.

So if we do enough surgery, somehow we've changed ourselves.

This is completely disordered thinking.

So it's already a transgression, but let's not get lost in the middle.

Well, in the foundational principle, there is sexual identity, right?

This is a very strange thing about these

fragmented identity claims is that they, like an identity should unite and it should serve a psychological and a social purpose simultaneously.

Sure.

An identity that's predicated on hedonistic orientation isn't an identity at all.

And this is where the transgression is.

What does the horror present?

The horror, she presents a

she presents sex out of its context.

It's free, as you said, sex is never free.

She presents free sex, right?

So what she has to do is the ultimate delusion.

The ability.

The ability to transgress.

And so you go from LGBT itself as a word, but we need representation.

Okay, fine.

So we need to put gay characters on TV.

Maybe that's a problem.

Maybe it's not a problem.

Who knows?

Well, we take a step.

What does it got to be after this?

Well, we need gay characters in children's programming.

It's a further transgression.

Then we need them in schools.

Now we need a drag queen to come read to the kids.

Well, the drag performance needs to get more radical.

And you can see it in the pride parades, too.

It's the inclusion of more and more transgressive stuff.

This is a cult of transgression, and it's hallowed.

Okay, so those trends okay so those trends now we can link the transgression back to your original idea that

you have a hierarchy of social status, let's say, let's call it conservative.

And so now the parasitic psych predators swarm in and they splinter it.

They splinter with transgression.

Sure.

Right.

So that's an important thing to note, right?

But there's a deeper thing here, which is what it's also what Mao did with his red identity, black identities, which were split themselves, is that the target is actually normal integrated society, and the excuse for the targeting is the opposite side pathology, right?

And so with Marcuse, to go back to the left, he writes this essay in 1965, Repressive Tolerance.

He says, okay, there's three kinds of tolerance.

He says there's democratic tolerance.

That's what a normal, healthy society has, and it only can tolerate so much it'll fall apart.

And then there's the repressive right-wing, maybe it's fascist, whatever.

He actually uses the the word fascist repeatedly.

And then what he says is, actually, those two things are the same thing because of different stupid excuses, nuclear weapons or whatever else.

So actually, we live in the repressive state.

Yeah, right.

All game rules are repressive.

And his argument is actually that all capitalist society will degenerate into fascism unless it's resisted.

And he says the answer to this is liberating tolerance.

And what is liberating tolerance?

And his own definition, which is, you know, close to from memory, a quote, it is, we will extend tolerance.

Liberating tolerance, he says, would mean we extend tolerance to movements from the left and we withdraw tolerance from movements from the right, which is everything to his right.

Okay, so speaking of-psychopathology, that's splitting, by the way.

And sociologically, I mean, one of the things I've noticed about my home country, it's really stark in Canada.

If conservatives protest,

they're flattened.

Yeah.

Left protest,

there's no holds barred.

No matter how pathological it becomes, the left-wing protesters are always the heroic victims.

The trucker convoy was a great example of that, right?

Because, you know, it was a disruptive demonstration, although remarkably peaceful.

And

the legal repercussions are still unrolling.

And I think maybe it's, tell me what you think about this.

I think it's because it might be partly the spread of the ideas of Marcuse through the convention.

Absolutely.

But I also think that people are genuinely

people.

There's something to genuinely fear when actual conservatives protest, because they don't do it until they're pushed to the wall.

That may be.

That may be, but I think.

Is it also an indication that something very fundamental has gone sideways?

Because conservatives aren't the protesting type.

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No, but I think that

the trucker protest tells us something different because the target, these people, this is one of the most genuinely peaceful pro-liberty,

it was the freedom convoy, and they meant it.

And they policed their own borders, and they kept the radicals out on the right.

So what happened was they showed up, the left showed up to protest the normal people.

I'm not going to say the middle, the normal people,

everyday freedom-loving Canadians.

And the excuse was there's a far right.

Okay.

So what happened is

I call this ideological flattening or dialectical flattening, but it's psychologically it's splitting.

The person that's occupying the leftist deranged position has flattened liberals and conservatives into a single monster.

Not so they can fight the conservatives, so they can fight the liberals.

And that's happening on the other side.

Conservatives will look over and say, well, there's the far left.

And all the classical liberals are actually in their camp.

And they've flattened them.

It's the same splitting behavior.

Again, so this is, again, an emphasis of this woke right or an exhibition of this woke right phenomenon of same energy, different direction, opposite directions in this case.

And the idea is that they are attacking the middle through the proxy of the far opposite side.

So I brought up Marcuse because he's also famous for Eros and Civilization and the sexual liberation.

And we were talking about the pride and the queer theory.

Well, those left-wing movements in the 60s all floated on a cloud of free love.

That's right, they did.

But look at the pride parade.

Okay, so we're going to, we need representation and visibility for gay people because there's a repressive society.

That's the excuse.

It's the far right that won't let anybody come out.

So they come out.

And is that where it stays?

Is that what they're actually targeting?

No.

You have fetishes.

You have all kinds of perversion, degeneracy.

I mean, I don't want to even talk about what it is, you know, explicitly, which is an advantage to queer theories.

Nobody will say what it actually says.

Yeah.

It's so gross.

But what they were targeting were liberal societal norms, real societal norms, healthy, let's forget liberal, healthy, not degenerate societal norms about sex and sexuality.

And the excuse was if you're not...

Well, degenerate's the right word too, I think, because I think one of the hallmarks, because if you are a relativist, you might say, well, who are you to place

modes of orienting yourself in the world in a hierarchy?

Right.

Because you described some of them as degenerate.

The reason that they're degenerate is because when they're employed, they degenerate.

Yeah, sure, of course.

So

they're games that violate their own principles as they play themselves out.

But there's nothing about a guy in fetish gear at a parade in front of children, for example, that's challenging the norms of a repressive sexual society that thinks that it should be procreative, heterosexual sex only.

That's an excuse.

It's pretext.

What they're after is the norms that hold regular society together.

And my argument is that the woke right does the same thing.

They have a cult of transgression, too.

They sometimes call it being based, but that's a completely bad word for what they're trying to describe because based should mean based in reality, although the origin of the term is slaying for being free-based on cocaine.

So they're out of their minds, right?

It's just funny how this lines up.

But what do they do?

Okay, so the left has told us, the far left has told us, you can't be racist.

Racist is worse.

Everybody's a racist.

And of course, they completely made degenerate the concept of racism, the word racism, the accusation, the sky is racist, going for a hike is racist.

But they aren't trying to reclaim and say, okay, no, wait, wait, racism's bad.

We don't want to be racist, and nobody should be racist, and the left completely ruined it, so we need to reclaim the term and have this healthy societal norm about discrimination and bigotry.

What they're doing instead is saying it's time for us to be a little bit racist.

The left said, don't be racist, so we're going to be really racist.

And we're going to do it in order to make, you know, to own the libs, as they sometimes phrase.

the thing, right?

But really, it's to reject what culture is the pretext.

They're not acting racist or blaming Jews for everything going wrong in society or, you know, getting further and further into the racial expression or the white racial consciousness or whatever, the white supremacy or even white nationalism in order to challenge the left.

No.

They're doing it to challenge the, not, again, the center, the healthy core of society and its norms.

Well, but that's the target.

It's a cult of transgression, but they point in opposite directions.

Left in.

some sense says don't be racist.

They say do be racist.

And this is again the communist fascist thing.

We're going to liberate everybody.

That's what the communists say.

They come along.

It screws everything up.

And, you know, there's all this oppression in society.

We're going to liberate people from oppression and everything's going to be utopia.

That's Marcuse in a nutshell.

Okay.

Defined primarily by full sexual liberation.

Of course.

And no more.

There is.

Hold on, hold on.

It all goes to hell.

And so then the right wakes up, wakes up, woke, and says, actually,

I think the oppression is what was holding us together.

So we should do more of it.

And they create a hierarchy in society that's very rigid, again, with that Führer principal from the fascists, because Mussolini had his lighter version of it, Hitler concretized it for Nazi Germany in 33, following Carl Schmitt's book, The Legal Basis for the Total State.

They created

the legal structure for this thing.

But the idea was that there is a hierarchy that kept society on the rails, and we're going to go back to that hierarchy in extreme pastiche form.

And there's a reward structure socially for the people in the club to push the envelope and attack those normal everyday societal norms in the center.

So again, same energy, opposite direction, but the point is the transgression, which they call queering on the left.

We don't have a word for it on the right.

They call it being-based, but that's not the same as transgress, but it's still transgression.

And so

same pathology for different reasons, same idea, like Mark said, you go all the way back to the state of nature, you're going to combine it with the end, so you're going to become the man, the alpha man who's also the omega man, in other words, the alpha and the omega of humanity.

So there's you become God-man, homo deus, as Harare named it in his book, Homo Deus.

And then on the right, they're not that, they don't go that far back.

They don't go back to the to the state of nature.

They're not interested in the state of nature.

They're interested in the mythic past from which they've been dispossessed that never existed, a romantic vision of who they were at some golden era in the past that they've been ejected from.

but they're still now the alienated outsider.

They're still the alien force came in, dispossessed them from who they are, and now they're going to claim it back.

And the way they're going to do it is by organizing a fascist structure as an answer to the degeneracy, a very rigid structure, and

a too rigid structure, an answer to

the not rigid enough structure of communism.

And then what they do is

the exact same transgression against the center to build their own power out in their local little cult against the big game of society.

They're attacking the game of society to build their numbers with the hope of being able to replace it in both cases.

So, this is why I call these people woke.

It's not just that they've gone on cancel rampages and struggle sessions.

It's not that they've put me through a relentless struggle session since September without stopping or, you know, doxxed my family and everything else in their wrath.

They said, I said, James calls them all woke right, and they decide to prove me wrong by canceling me and struggling me and doxing my family and acting exactly like we all went through in 2015 when you stood up about the pronouns and so

and that's the thing jordan back then you stood up and you paid that was ugly and you were right you saw that when they said you will use these

literally transgressive pronouns or else or else you said no

and it's like the world lost its mind on you.

And it says, looking back, it's almost quaint, but it wasn't quaint to go through.

But the thing is, is you were right.

And then Peter and Helen and I did the grievance studies papers, and we were right.

So we were right.

And

I see the same structures, the same patterns, the same behaviors, the same reactions.

the same explanations with slight modifications that's the difference between communism and fascism as modern archetypes.

And what I see when I, you know, you can think of those as modern era mythologies for how society is supposed to be organized.

And I see the same thing.

And the thing is, we were right then and we're right now.

Yeah, I've been thinking about it as the hijacking of belief, right?

That's

a parasite.

Yeah.

And that hijacking of belief is this, just to take it all the way back to the Gnostic thing.

That's what the Gnostic cults did before Irenaeus put them down.

And then, you know, Augustine comes along and mentions them all and says there have been 84 heresies or whatever up to this point by the fourth century.

The Gnostic cults did the same thing.

They splintered off from the true faith.

They came up with the idea that they had secret knowledge.

That's the Gnosis.

But look at what the cults were, like the Manichian cult.

The Manichian cult is an absolute splitting of the world into total good and evil.

It's not us and them.

It's us and everybody else against us.

And the idea is that the evil is embodied in the world and the good have to slowly work to consume the evil and turn it to good.

And eventually you end up with all good.

But this Manikian battle between good and evil is what Marx codifies on the first page of the Communist Manifesto when he says that in a word, what he's talking about, the entirety of the story of history is oppressor versus oppressed.

It's a fundamental dualistic

metaphysics.

There's no unity of society with a kind of melange of different people in different places working, playing different roles, sliding up and down the ladder.

No, there is a fundamental dualism.

You might move within each of those, but there's a fundamental dualistic structure and they are in conflict.

That's the first line of the Communist Manifesto after the famous preface.

The first chapter, he says,

the history of man is the history of the conflict of contending classes, oppressor and oppressed.

And he says that what it's going to result in is the

revolution of society or the common ruin of the contending classes.

So, either the bottom is going to come up on top and take over, the splinter group is going to replace society itself, or they're going to ruin everything.

They'll destroy everything that they can't have.

And then we're looking at, you know, beastly behavior, and I don't mean animals.

So, do we

maybe we could lay out some of the behavioral markers so that because we might as well make this concrete.

I can tell you what I've observed about the behavior of psychopathic parasites online.

Okay.

Sure.

Maybe if you have five of these, you're one of them.

You know what I mean?

It's

any one alone isn't enough.

Right.

Diagnostic criteria.

So in the comments sections, for example, anonymity is a marker.

Use of

a transgressive cover name, often satanic.

Often.

So,

you know, and it's tongue-in-cheek, but no, it's not.

Yeah.

Derisive language, right?

So that would be language indicative of contempt.

Yeah.

Contempt's a really toxic emotion, contempt and disgust.

Hitler used disgust language to characterize the Jews, not fear language.

That's right.

And you destroy things you're disgusted by.

That's right.

You stay away from things you're afraid of.

He says in Mein Kampf that early in the book, in the second chapter, that one of the best moments, he doesn't say it's the best moment of my life, but he realizes and it's clear that he's very happy about it, was the moment when he realized that the Jew is not a German and the German is not a Jew.

That's disgusting.

Right, absolutely.

Absolutely.

They use

derisive

and contemptuous,

what do you call those?

LOL is a good example.

Oh, yeah, dismissive kind of

acronyms.

Yeah, acronyms.

Now, you know, there's lulz culture online.

Yes, of course.

I do it for the lulz.

That's a hallmark of sadism.

Now, those people, people who do those things, so those are four or five things:

anonymity, pathological,

nom de plume, derisive language, and then the use of these contemptuous and

contemptuous and cool acronyms.

Belittling, they use the word dude.

That's a real good marker.

Yeah.

Or they'll use a derisive nickname to kind of equalize the playing field.

Yeah.

So I'm Jimmy a lot.

You're Jimmy.

Yeah.

Yeah, right.

Diminutive.

They'll use a diminutive.

Jimmy concepts instead of conceptual James.

Right, right, right.

That started on the left, and now the right uses it.

Right.

Yeah, yeah.

So, so those are markers.

What else have I seen?

An insane rise in explicit anti-Semitism.

And that's been open for five years.

And it's not all the time.

And Nazi apologies.

Yeah, well, that's the same thing.

Which isn't just the apology, too.

It's the transgression.

It's to post the meme, sometimes meant to be funny, so you have plausible deniability or the other social functions of humor come into play, but they'll post the meme of Hitler.

Why?

Because you're you're not supposed to.

That's why.

So you have norms of decency around different things.

One of those norms in, again, mainstream healthy society has been that we're not going to valorize Nazis.

We're not going to lionize these guys.

And you have, I'm not talking about the historians or whatever else that are coming out and rehashing David Irving or any of that.

I'm talking about these

to use the word that's on the internet, shit posters who come and post pictures of Hitler with a smile on his face, or they're translating his speeches into English and clipping out parts where he's rousing Germany to

a cheerful future.

Oh, he just loves his country.

That's one of the messages they put.

They love it.

I'm sorry.

Read Mein Kampf.

Actually, read it.

He's utterly clear about the point of his state is to preserve the race and the biggest pollution of the race, to preserve it against pollution of inferior races.

And the most inferior race is the Jews.

Absolutely clear.

The demonization is absolutely visible in 25 when he publishes that way before they say, well, it took until 38, 39, maybe 42 when Churchill got involved.

That's when they had to really start hating the Jews.

And no, no, no, that current is all the way back to the beginning.

So this shit posting problem.

So that's part of the enabling of the psychopaths by the...

by the free social media platforms, right?

By the costless social media platforms.

Do you have any sense?

So we're working out ways to identify people.

Swarm behavior, by the way, is another one.

Another marker.

Another marker.

So you'll get one of these derisive replies, and within minutes, it'll get 600 likes on it.

You don't know how that happened from an account with 30 followers, and your replies somehow get 600 likes in a minute or two minutes.

And then, you know, everybody piles it up.

It's like a biblical plague of it.

Yeah, and then they jump in on you and say, you got ratioed.

Of course, a lot of it's bots that people bought.

But what they do is they say, my comment was more popular than your comment.

Therefore, you're not very interesting.

And we're very interesting.

So we're ascendant.

And by the way, that's psychologically really impactful if you don't know what's going on.

Yes, definitely.

You feel like the crowd, they tell me this all the time.

We're all laughing at you.

We're all laughing at you.

We're all laughing at you.

Yeah, right.

It's very sophisticated psychological torment, unfortunately, for my antagonist.

I understand the game, and therefore.

Does it affect you?

Only when I'm not prepared for the pathway by which it comes when i'm when i'm aware of it no but when not at all except maybe to encourage me somebody put up a meme of me the other day and it says it shows a guy building a castle standing inside the wall a big giant guy and it's me and all these people throwing rocks and it says on the on the meme it says James when his haters throw rocks at him and I'm building a castle out of all the stones they throw at me.

And so no, not so much, except they can catch you off guard.

They can catch you off guard.

And what catches you off guard the most, and this is the power of the struggle session, what will catch you off guard the most is when one of your friends buys it.

They see it and

they go with the people that are haranguing you.

That's when it'll get you.

That's when it'll affect you.

So

the proliferation of this kind of pathology seems to be linked to.

Another characteristic is the attempt to get people to distance themselves from you.

I face that very frequently.

You want to get away from him.

He's contaminated.

Yeah, well, that's discussed terminology again, right?

You're the carrier of something pathologically.

That's right.

Yeah.

So the

social media platforms, so Musk's perspective and Rogans to some degree too, mine for that matter, is that the best antiseptic is sunlight.

But there might be a flaw in that reasoning.

And maybe you can help me think it through.

When I'm sitting across from you, I bear the weight of my words, right?

It's going to have an impact on the net, but it's also going to impact the relationship I have with you.

And so I'm constrained or regulated.

I'm regulated in my utterances by consequences.

And so there's never been a time, really, where free speech existed without reputational weight.

Now, maybe pamphlet tiering and that sort of thing, but that's trivial compared to what we have now.

Right.

I mean, how many people can you get your pamphlet to?

And what sort of effect is that going to have?

That was back in the time of writing, but now

your pathology can multiply virtually without end.

And then I'm thinking, well, maybe it's necessary.

I thought for Twitter, for example, that There should be two sections.

There should be a section where people's

identification is validated and a section for the anonymous trolls and that should be demarcated so you can go visit hell land of trolls if you want but you know that they're not real people yeah now the problem with that as far as i can tell is the digital id problem i mean

the net allows people to escape the reputational consequences of their psychopathology, their destructive, sadistic, corrosive, power-mad, hedonistic psychopathology.

It's a terrible thing, and people have no idea how dangerous it is.

But if you verify IDs electronically, then we walk down the

route to Chinese totalitarianism, something like that, as far as I can.

And if you read the original documentation, Stanford University has its DigiChina project and translates Chinese documents.

2014, they're putting forth a social credit system, and they actually explain that the purpose of the social credit system is to achieve a perfect socialism because it's not just a social control mechanism.

It's a Pavlovian training mechanism.

Right.

Nudging.

It's like

your life becomes a video game nudging you to hold the beliefs that the state wants you to have.

Well, the guy who just got, the man who just got

elected prime minister in Canada,

he says two quite stunning things in his book, which no Canadians read, because

we'll leave that lie.

75% of the world's fossil fuels have to stay in the ground.

Okay, that's proposition number one.

And he's made that a centerpiece of his thinking for 20 years.

There's no priority guiding every financial decision by every individual and every corporation that should be

prioritized higher than decarbonization.

That means every single thing, and then he says, of course, there'll be losers in consequence of that, but it's a price we're willing to pay.

We have to pay, the sacrifice of others.

So this is a man who thinks that net zero is the proper game and that if you were a moral actor,

decarbonization would be your God.

Yeah.

Right.

Regulate every single one of your decisions.

Well, out of that comes the kind of pathocracy that you described.

It's like you've seen this already.

There's edges appearing.

There's credit cards they were issued in Australia that track your carbon footprint.

Yeah.

Right.

And at the moment, you're still allowed to spend on whatever you want, regardless of your at the moment.

That's exactly right.

And once you're fully trackable,

well, then we know what will happen.

You know exactly what will happen.

Yeah.

You'll be nudged in whatever direction benefits the power mad Luciferians.

That's exactly what will happen.

It's not just social control.

It is social training.

It is

operant conditioning.

I was looking for the word.

It's operant conditioning in its most sophisticated form, especially when equipped with the technologies of AI.

That's for sure, because the AI systems trained on your purchasing behavior, for example, will be able to predict your likely behavior with a stellar degree of accuracy.

That's right.

Right.

I mean, the advertisements that you're fed already do that to some degree.

That's right.

So I'm, I, the only solution I can

think of to this is to, because the digital ID solution seems to be troublesome, to say the least, means no privacy whatsoever forever, fundamentally.

Yeah.

It's, I guess it's exposing this and hoping that people make wise decisions.

You know, and I guess that's what you're trying to do with the woke right ideas.

Yeah, there are, there are workable activities that could step into play.

For example, you know, a lot of times you'll hear especially libertarians talk about the revision to the Smith-Munt Act in 2012.

And now our intelligence communities, we know that our social media is washed with propaganda.

Well, there are legal constraints that you can put, at least on your own government, to prevent that.

You can take, but you want to have a task force for doing something in terms of, say, national cybersecurity, keeping Russian and Iranian and Qatari and Chinese

bots and bad actors,

Pakistani, these are where a lot of these bot networks are coming from.

Keeping those influence campaigns, foreign influence campaigns out with a dedicated cybersecurity project is going to clean up a lot of it.

You think the administrators can stay ahead of the city?

I don't think so, actually.

So far, not yet.

I don't think so.

No, that's

another problem, right?

Is that the system transforms itself so rapidly that it's very difficult to regulate it?

What I'm thinking is, you know, Trump created a space force because of maybe space war or whatever it's supposed to do.

I'm not quite sure.

But this is like,

there's, I don't want to make it a branch of the military, but I'm using it as an analogy.

I don't know.

Maybe it should be

the cyber security or cyber warfare

division.

an entire branch that is dedicated to that because this is a serious problem for and again the bigger the country, the more power it wields, the more likely it is to be attacked.

Not to be rude to people from Botswana, but there's just not that much incentive to go mess around

with their internet.

There's a ton of incentive to mess with MAGA, which is informing Trump.

Well, we've already tried to, some of the groups that I'm working with.

Women 18 to 34 have political opinions that are way off-center compared to everyone else.

Plus, they're dreadfully miserable.

Yeah.

Right.

Well, they get 80% of their news from TikTok, and TikTok is a bought farm fundamentally.

Yeah.

And the algorithms are designed to produce exactly the kind of upsetting pathology that characterizes female voters between the ages of 18 to 34.

Well, I mean, this is why woke is so female-coded.

Everybody kind of wonders, what in the world is critical race theory?

Why is it so female-coded?

It's because it all, every bit of what we call woke on the left, passed through feminism to mainstream.

So So it was all built off of pathological women trying to figure out how to pathologize young women to join their club or culture.

And so it all ended up getting twisted.

If you look at communism, like soviet communities.

That's part of that oppressor-oppressed narrative.

Soviet communism was not a feminine endeavor, right?

Brutal gun shooting, the whole thing.

And there's a lot of things you could say about the snitch culture and all of this, but.

It's not like, not like what we have now, but the reason is because the ideology passed in order to become viable in our society, to be to find the receptor sites.

The receptor sites for Marxism in the West were overwhelmingly young white women, and it had to pass through feminism to be able to get the parasite to attach as a mind virus in order to get there because that's what it was designed to do.

On the other hand, therefore, you have young men who've been ravaged.

You, I literally, Dave Rubin and I were talking the other day, and he said that you,

as an individual, have done more than, and I believe him, more than any individual on the planet Earth to help young men who've had a hard time through all of this nonsense for the last 20 to 30 years.

Being a voice in the wilderness to reach and help and guide them and get them to, you know, clean their room and all of the stuff.

And to identify the parasitic predators and keep them at bay.

So what we have now is we had a vulnerability complex that attached to young girls.

Now we have another one that's rising in answer that's attaching to young men.

So the tragedy for me, and I'm watching this, and I get, you know, I talk, I'm integrated with the moms networks of the grassroots moms all over the country, right?

And of course, these demons have come up with all kinds of salacious rumors to spread with regard to that to discredit me and to remove me from their activity, which are all nonsense.

But at any rate,

what I'm watching is all these moms, I'm hearing from these moms already who are telling me they aren't, they aren't using this phrasing.

This is my phrasing.

By the grace of God,

their daughters didn't get pulled into the trans destruction mania, and now they're having to watch their sons get lured into Nazism.

And that's why I'm so worked up about this woke-right cult of transgression.

I get it.

You're a 15-year-old boy, maybe you're a 19-year-old boy, you're a 25-year-old, maybe you're a 35-year-old who hasn't grown up and got out of his parents' basement, and you think it's funny to post a mustache man meme or two here and there to rile up the libs and the normal people in the left and everybody else.

Plus, you're irritated that your identity has been targeted for 30 years.

Yeah, of course, on racial grounds.

Just like the way the Germans felt with the imposition of the Treaty of Versailles, if they saw it that way, whether we do or not, how the Germans felt about the French and brought a Europe and the rest of their standing in the world.

And they were impoverished and they were broken down.

It's the same powder keg.

Or maybe that's not the right word.

It's more like

a tank of propane because you're going to pump it up and get it to spray fire when it comes out the other end.

Right.

It's like

one of the things people can watch for everybody who's watching and listening is is beware of anything that's motivated by resentment.

You know, the mere fact that you have had difficulties that are somewhat arbitrary, first of all, doesn't distinguish you from the main run of the human race.

But if the motivation stems out of resentment, the probability that something horrible has got a hold of your soul is extremely high.

So I go back to the first thing I said, right?

What's woke right?

Well, it's woke people.

who act like conservat who call themselves conservatives.

It's woke people who call themselves conservatives or right-wing, right?

So there it is.

You just said it.

They are people who feel alienated and dispossessed from their heritage, victimized.

They're filled with resentment and they channel it through left-wing or right-wing causes.

You know,

that's the story of Cain, eh?

It is the story of Cain.

Cain's sacrifices are not rewarded.

He invites the spirit of resentment into occupy his soul and becomes

not only murderous, but the progenitor of genocide and the precursor to the flood.

And the media, it's so interesting, James, because so Cain's sacrifices are rejected and it's a little ambiguous as to why.

And then he goes to complain to God and God says,

basically, he says, you think you're miserable because you're failing.

It's like, you're not.

There's lots of things you could do about failing.

If you did well, you would be accepted, right?

What you've done is you have allowed something terribly tempting that crouched on your doorstep to enter your house and have its way with you.

And that's why you're bitter, resentful, and murderous.

It has nothing to do with your failure.

It's this additional variable, which is you're because the thing is, everyone, in a sense, this is true of heroes in mythology.

Everyone starts out lowly.

Everyone starts out dispossessed.

Everyone starts out oppressed, right?

And there's angles of your identity that you can construe as oppressor, oppressed narrative with no problem.

If you decide that you've been treated unfairly and now you have a right to resentment and revenge, then well, then you're the monster that breeds genocide.

Yeah, and so what does Cain do?

He's rejecting the system that he has to succeed in order to be rewarded.

He's rejecting, so there's a system.

It's a Muciferian narrative.

And so what does he do, though?

He goes and kills his brother.

He goes and murders his successful brother.

His successful brother.

So

it's exactly the same thing.

A lot of these guys that are pushing the woke right stuff, and there's nothing wrong with a new character coming on the scene.

Every one of us was a new character.

I mean, you were doing great work, obviously, and you have a body of work extending well before that as a professional.

But then you spoke up in 2015 about that horrific pronouns bill.

you sort of became a different monster, a public intellectual.

It's a curse word, I think, but you know what I mean.

And this, you know, you

my favorite moment ever.

I was skeptical of you until I watched you talk to Kathy Newman.

And then I watched you do the most effective.

You should have been skeptical of me to begin with.

The most effective judo I've ever seen in a discussion in my entire life.

And I said, I watched that to just, I was going to, I was going to tell everybody how you were wrong.

And I watched it and you impressed me.

And I was like, I have to like him now.

And so, how annoying is that?

Isn't it?

Yeah.

No, but, and I think that that's a thing i don't i i was excited to start learning as opposed to being annoyed and resentful i'm like oh well i was wrong about this guy move on right right you know but a lot of these fellows that are pushing the woke right stuff appeared in the anger and in the repression is the word of 2020 more 2021.

They don't have a body of work extending before that.

They just kind of came out of the ground.

And good, I get it.

There was a lot going on.

There were people making great commentary about about liberty, regarding the COVID policies.

There are people making great commentary about the obviously critical race theory, cultural revolution running amok and the queer theory later.

So I'm very grateful to everybody who came along.

But these people that have a longer perspective and a deeper body of work, it's hard because they're...

That's a crucial.

So that touches on Douglas's point, too, is that...

to not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

One of the things that...

Institutions are corrupt, but due diligence matters.

Right, right.

What has this person who's saying these things done?

And to whose benefit is it, is what they're saying.

So you have these pretenders.

I think this is maybe we can end with this at this section.

I think what we'll do, maybe on the Daily Wire side, is

talk about the anti-Semitic trope, but I'd like to introduce that for a bit.

I don't understand it exactly.

I don't understand why the woke right, for example, is particularly capitalizing on anti-Semitism.

Do you just think that that's a

particularly daring and attention-seeking

transgression?

I mean,

are they proclaiming that

they'll violate something sacred because that's how brave they are?

This is a yes and.

A yes and.

Okay.

Yes, it's this transgressive.

Also, they know good and damn well that there are certain transgressions you can't come home from.

You go too far down that road, there's no way back.

And not because your new friends are going to call you names like a sellout or a cuck or duo loyalties or whatever.

There are certain lines you go down and you don't get to come back.

And they know that.

So they get to trap people there.

But this, I believe,

and we will probably or possibly disagree on this.

I think that there are particular malevolent actors.

that are pushing this who have grander designs than getting clicks, getting an audience, satisfying their own narcissistic urges, transgressing boundaries.

I think that there are, and it makes total sense if I were to say China is supporting all of it.

And if I had evidence, you'd say,

oh, China, Iran, Qatar, Pakistan, like the Arab League, Russia, and the deep state, possibly.

Trump is a problem to something.

We can tell by the way that they've organized the Trump derangement program that's just screwed Canada royally, but has deranged Americans.

I have family members I can barely relate with still because of Trump derangement.

I was obviously cast out in disgrace from the last vestiges of the left when I said I was going to vote for Trump and said publicly on a podcast, Make America Great Again, they lost their minds and said I went crazy.

And so Trump is something, right?

There is a lot of reasons besides just the fact that he's the sitting president of the United States of America.

He's doing a lot of things to this global order that are disruptive and in a good way in all likelihood, there's a lot of motivation to take this man down.

And if you can fragment his base by getting them to argue about Israel good, Israel bad,

that's a deep cut that you've just taken and cloven MAGA in half.

So all it takes is one event, something that goes down in Israel, and Trump takes a side, takes the Israeli side, and bang, they can pull the thing apart.

So it's like a way, it's not just what we were saying.

It's also a wedge to hammer deeper and deeper and deeper into MAGA the people who like Israel and the people who don't or the conservative movement or America itself which therefore implicates the left side doing the same exact thing at the same exact time using the horrible events of October 7th as their pretext well we'll continue this on the Daily Wire side and that way we can attract the maximum number of commentators who say that the reason we saved the discussion of anti-Semitism for the Daily Wire section is because I'm under the thumb of Ben Shapiro and the Zionists.

So, me too.

Don't worry.

I don't have Ben Shapiro or the Zionist.

I'm Zionist.

I'm paid by Israel.

I've turned out the lights for them on Friday for years.

Don't worry.

I see.

Okay.

Well, apparently we're in the same club.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right.

Good talking to you, sir.

Thanks very much for coming in today.

Thank you to all of you who are watching and listening and to the film crew here in Scottsdale for this, making this completely preposterous conversation possible and helping us,

what, broadcast the word to be awake and be careful who you're listening to and why you're listening and what spirit possesses you while you're listening.

And beware of resentment, boys and girls, that everyone in hell is resentful.

So good to talk to you, sir.

You too, Jordan.