498. Is Brazil on Path to Become Cuba? | Eduardo Bolsonaro

Speaker 1 So Brazil has been on people's minds more in the United States and perhaps in the world as of late, not least because Elon Musk has had a very public dispute with,

Speaker 1 what would you say, a renowned member of the Brazilian Supreme Court.

Speaker 1 And that has a multitude of implications for the battle between free speech and government regulation and ideological control across the world. Now, I had the opportunity today to speak with Mr.

Speaker 1 Eduardo Bolsonaro, who's a congressman in Brazil and who's also the son of Gairo Bolsonaro, who was the president of Brazil, who's ran an unorthodox campaign, mostly on social media, and became president

Speaker 1 for a four-year term.

Speaker 1 And so we had a chance today to talk about the culture war in Brazil, which is very similar to the culture war that's running rampant in the United States and in Canada and in Europe and in New Zealand and Australia, all across the Western world and all across the world.

Speaker 1 as a whole,

Speaker 1 to a lesser degree, although that will mount.

Speaker 1 And we delved into, well, the political structure of Brazil, the political landscape there, and how it's shifting as a consequence of the social media revolution.

Speaker 1 We spoke a fair bit about the background to the dispute that Musk is having with the Brazilian Supreme Court.

Speaker 1 And we outlined the implications of that dispute for the battle between free speech and government regulation and ideology, as I said, across the world. It's been my experience that

Speaker 1 getting to know the political landscape on the various countries that I visited and have been able to familiarize myself with to some degree helps me deepen my understanding of what's relevant and important

Speaker 1 more locally, say, in the United States, in Canada. And I think the discussion that I had today with Mr.
Bolsonaro with regard to Brazil has exactly the same

Speaker 1 consequence.

Speaker 1 There's something deep at work in the world at the moment, and you can see it reflected everywhere.

Speaker 1 And the more places you analyze it, the more positions you can analyze it from, the more the contours become clear. And so you can walk through this discussion with us.

Speaker 1 You'll learn more about South America and Central America. You'll learn more about Brazil.
You'll learn more about the political landscape in general and about the culture war.

Speaker 1 Specifically, you'll have some new light shed on the battle between Musk and X and the Brazilian Supreme Court, and you'll walk away smarter and more informed. So that's a good deal.

Speaker 1 So join us for that. Well, Mr.
Bolsonaro, thank you very much for coming in today.

Speaker 1 I was recently in South America. I spent a few days in Brazil.
That was extremely interesting.

Speaker 1 And one of the things that dawned on me when I was there, although I knew it a bit before, was that many of the issues that are relevant on the culture war front in North America and in Europe are equally relevant in South America and perhaps particularly in Brazil.

Speaker 1 And so I I guess we should, and so that's why I thought, at least in part, that a podcast like this would be useful and interesting.

Speaker 1 Also,

Speaker 1 there isn't a tremendous amount of attention paid to South American issues in the North American press or in the European press for that matter.

Speaker 1 And that's probably not how it should be, all things considered.

Speaker 1 And I thought, well, because of that, it would also be useful to bring people some more information about South America, the political situation there, and again, more specifically Brazil.

Speaker 1 But I think we'll start with a bit of a personal discussion. Let everybody know, well, who you are and what you're doing in Brazil,

Speaker 1 and talk about your family and recent Brazilian history, and then we'll expand out from there, I think. Sure, first is a great honor to be here with you, Professor.

Speaker 1 Sure, after your trip to Brazil, you know that Brazilians usually love you because your courage and your background, the issues about Canada, even that made you to move yourself to US.

Speaker 1 We have the same problem in Brazil. But starting from your question, before we go deep in all of this culture war and cut your issues, my name is Eduardo Bolsonaro.
I'm 40 years old.

Speaker 1 I have two kids, one of four, my daughter, she has four years old, and I have a boy of one. I'm very well married with Eloisa, who led me to be here.

Speaker 1 And I'm the third son of the former president of Brazil Jair Bolsonaro.

Speaker 1 Before I talk about

Speaker 1 the recent political scenario it's very important to remark that Brazil we lived from 1964 until 1985 a military regime that started avoiding Brazil to turn itself as Cuba because we had at that time a communist president that was trying to bring Brazil to the same situation of Cuba.

Speaker 1 So people on the street with the support of the Catholic Church and some other sectors of our society approved to the Congress to impeach this president.

Speaker 1 And then we start to have a period of time from 64 until 85 electing indirectly because in these elections the senators and the congressmen voted for president only, not the popular vote, only the Congress voting, but every five years a new president a military general president during this period of time so after 85 we get back again with the democracy that we have nowadays and start to elect new presidents as pretty much as like in united states and during this period of time my father in the end of the 80s he was an army captain so i born in 84 1984 my father was an army captain and two older brothers than me.

Speaker 1 And in the end of the 80s, my father had some

Speaker 1 problems inside of the army because he was complaining about the salary of the militaries. And he did not have the permission of his superiors to do interviews.

Speaker 1 So he did an interview for a famous magazine in Brazil and he became very famous.

Speaker 1 But because of that, as he didn't have the permission of the superiors, he went 15 days in jail in the military jail and to calm down the situation he run for city council in rio de janeiro in 1988 because when you do that you receive three months off in the army and uh i'm not sure if he did expect to get elected but he did get elected city council of rio de janeiro in 1988 and then 1990 he run for congressman, so federal representative, got elected.

Speaker 1 And every four years, he stayed 28 years inside of the Congress, getting re-elected, mainly through the votes of the militaries and their families. So

Speaker 1 in this situation, there is a very key point around 2010, I can tell you,

Speaker 1 where the politically correct in Brazil starts to increase a lot.

Speaker 1 Around 2010. Yeah, around this year.

Speaker 1 And my father, he did an interview and it got, I think it was his first viral interview on internet where he's talking about a situation in a jail in Brazil. There was a jail in Brazil.

Speaker 1 The name of the jail is Pedrinhas Jail.

Speaker 1 In this jail, criminals start to kill each other.

Speaker 1 And my father was running to be the chairman of the Human Rights Committee in the Congress, in the House. And a lot of microphones around him and journalists start to

Speaker 1 do some dumb questions and trying to say, oh,

Speaker 1 don't you care about the life of the prisoners? They are prisoners.

Speaker 1 It's a human life. And he said, come on, you don't want to go to the jail?

Speaker 1 It's just do not rob, do not murder, do not kidnap anyone else, and start to say some bad words because it was very explosive. And this interview came very viral.

Speaker 1 And at that time, I was in the federal police. I'm a lawyer.
And I was in the federal police. My first service was on the border between Brazil and Bolivia.
And then I moved myself.

Speaker 1 I was transferred to Sao Paulo. But during that time, in 2014, I asked my father, hey, father, I see you most,

Speaker 1 like, almost alone. in some of the debates that you face inside of the Congress.
Would you support me to run for the Congress? So maybe instead of only one congressman, we could be two.

Speaker 1 And he supported me. I run from the state of Sao Paulo.
I received a little bit more than 82,000 votes because in Brazil, when you vote

Speaker 1 for someone, you vote in the state and actually go to the house. So in the state of Sao Paulo, I received 82,000 votes.
And we spent a little bit less than around $10,000 in my campaign.

Speaker 1 So he financed my campaign too.

Speaker 1 And I became a congressman. And so he was still a congressman at that time.
Yes. So let me get the timeline right before we go on.
I just want to make sure.

Speaker 1 So from you, you mentioned a regime in Brazil that was similar to the regime in Cuba. Tell me the dates for that.
All right. So before 1964.
It was before 64.

Speaker 1 Yes, we had a president called January Quadros. After seven months in the presidency, in our White House,

Speaker 1 he resigned

Speaker 1 and there is no reason for that it's a very funny uh chapter of our story because when he resigned he said that uh forces outside of the of the earth like kind of aliens

Speaker 1 uh

Speaker 1 there was a kind of a threat against him and that's why he resided so well that'll do it you know

Speaker 1 but then his vice president was a huge communist guy and uh he was start to talk to

Speaker 1 end with the private property get the farms and get the land of the farmers and send it to the people you know this kind of of issue very strong at that time and regarding that in Cuba the revolution is 1959 right so we are talking five years after that

Speaker 1 and so he was thinking the way it's to turn Brazil into a communist country and the major part of our society didn't want that.

Speaker 1 So the National Association of the Press, Catholic Church, farmers, militarists for sure, so we start to have a lot of huge protests.

Speaker 1 More than one million people in Rio de Janeiro, for example, on the streets asking that the military should not let Brazil turn itself as a Cuba.

Speaker 1 And so the Congress on April 1st of 1964, the Congress said if the President do not come to the capital in Brazil, he was in a trip in China,

Speaker 1 if he not come back to Brazil to Brazil, to the capital, we are going to declare that the presidential chair is vacancy. There is no one in the presidential chair.
And we will open for a new election.

Speaker 1 So this was after the gentleman that you described had resigned because of this interference

Speaker 1 from external forces. Yes.

Speaker 1 And the Congress elected, a couple of days later of that, the Congress elected the first general. of this period of time in 1964.

Speaker 1 The military said that they would give back the power to the civil society very quickly.

Speaker 1 But after almost two years, we start to have radical left groups bombing airports, kidnapping airplanes, and even the U.S. ambassador was kidnapped during the 17th in Brazil.

Speaker 1 So, with this atmosphere, the military said, All right, we cannot give you back the power because you have a lot of instability, so we are going to rule the country from now on.

Speaker 1 And they stayed there for 20 years.

Speaker 1 Okay, and that was the time during when the president was nominated by the Congress. Yes.
And Congress and the court, and not the people.

Speaker 1 Yeah, only the Congress, the Senate, the Congress, and the federal representatives vote for president.

Speaker 1 And how did Brazilians generally react to that form of government from 64 to 85? It's half and a half. I can tell you.

Speaker 1 Some of the people,

Speaker 1 they miss this period of time because a period of time that, for example, the murder rates of Brazil, it was almost the same level united states we developed a lot our economy we became number 44 economy of the world to top 10 economy of the world is a period of time that we have the huge infrastructure buildings as the nuclear using of anglados haze uh the you hydroelectric using of itaipu that it was the hugest, the number one, the biggest of the world.

Speaker 1 Now China, they had one bigger than ours. Roads all over the country.
So they really reduce the corruption,

Speaker 1 invest a lot in the infrastructure of the country. And during a period of time, we had a lot of prosperity.

Speaker 1 But in the 80s, the economic rise, mainly coming from the oil crisis from the Middle East and the increase of the prices and some other issues, Brazil stopped. stagnated in the economy.

Speaker 1 And the political pressure to give back the opportunity to the people to vote, it was increasing.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 there are two generals that were president in the end of the 70s and beginning of the 80s. What they did is first in 1790, they gave amnesty to all of the radical left-wing groups

Speaker 1 that kidnapped the US ambassador, that killed some

Speaker 1 militaries, even foreign militaries in Brazil, you know,

Speaker 1 to everybody go back again to the country and trying to pacificate the country and give it back. It wasn't necessary, you know,

Speaker 1 shooting or killing other people.

Speaker 1 The military said, okay, the president at that time, João Figuerido, it was a military general, he said, okay, we are going to give back the permission of people to vote, to vote.

Speaker 1 Is that what you want? I will give you back this permission. But he warned.
You are going to feel, to miss the time that we were here in the capital because we cared about people.

Speaker 1 This radical left, they are going to take power. They are going to make you suffer.
And I hope, God, one day that you are going to ask the militaries again to take the power again.

Speaker 1 Let's see what happened. We say that this is the prophecy of the president Figuered.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 after,

Speaker 1 I don't know, 30 years after that, we are in this situation that we have nowadays.

Speaker 1 A lot of the Brazilians who lived that time, not the Brazilians who know about press articles or left-wing professors that they have in the university or in the college.

Speaker 1 So part of the Brazilians, they miss this period of time.

Speaker 1 Some others think that it was very bad because you have censorship, you have the state killing people, and people who were exhalated outside of Brazil. So I could say it's 50-50,

Speaker 1 in my opinion.

Speaker 1 And so

Speaker 1 it seems reasonable to presume that

Speaker 1 the political spectrum in Brazil for many, many decades has been

Speaker 1 much more polarized, right and left, than is typical in the United States, in Canada, in Europe, that there's more activity on the radical left and more activity on the right.

Speaker 1 Is that a reasonable way of looking at it as far as you're concerned? The left, they have, they are a minority that speak louder. Why do they speak louder?

Speaker 1 Because they control the press, they control the unions, they control part of the politics.

Speaker 1 And on the right side, on the side that I consider myself, and the conservative or better, on the non-left side,

Speaker 1 we don't have even a political party, we don't have a university or college, you don't have union, you don't have a think tank.

Speaker 1 If you look to US, for example, since the 70s, you have Heritage Foundation think tank, you have CPAC, you had Ronald Reagan, you have some leaderships that are very known and conservative sides.

Speaker 1 So in Brazil, we are starting to build that. What about the military in Brazil? Like, is it right-wing fundamentally? Most of them, I say yes.

Speaker 1 Is it reasonable to say that the right in Brazil has the military and the left has the institutions that you, the other institutions that you described?

Speaker 1 So so, in their particular opinion, but the military, they do not go to politics.

Speaker 1 After 85, what happened is the left, as they control the media, mainly the media, they started to demonize the militaries.

Speaker 1 So during the 80s and 90s, you don't have a politician say, I'm a right-wing politician. This was almost forbidden.

Speaker 1 The sense of democracy in Brazil that we had, it was the PT, the Liberals' Party, which is extremely left, communist, like I can tell you, AOC, Bernie Saunders.

Speaker 1 is the same kind of people that have a relationship with Lula da Silva and people from their party in Brazil. And the Social democrats, which is center-left,

Speaker 1 this, we thought it was democracy. I see, I see.
But then when my father starts to appear in the national scenario, they say, oh, wait a minute, this is not right.

Speaker 1 Right is Jerry Bolsonaro or more to the right here. So we changed the spectrum of Brazil.

Speaker 1 And it's that sense is so true what I'm talking because in the previous election, you had the social democrat, Gerardo Alcmi, running for president.

Speaker 1 He was calling Lula da Silva from the Labor Party as a thief, as a criminal. Now, guess what?

Speaker 1 The vice president of Lula da Silva is this guy, Gerardo Alcmi.

Speaker 1 And they don't even have a shame because of that. So my father, it was disruptive.

Speaker 1 It's like, you know, the king is naked.

Speaker 1 My father was the one saying, oh, the king is naked.

Speaker 1 And everybody starts to pay attention about what is going on, mainly because now, after 2010, you have a new content in this political scenario, which it is internet.

Speaker 1 With the internet, we break the monopoly of the mainstream media and you start to bring in more information.

Speaker 1 As you know, that's why they are trying to regulate and democratize the internet and social media.

Speaker 1 But at the end of the day, we all know that they want to control the narrative because they lost that.

Speaker 1 Yes, and of course, Elon Musk's battle with Brazil has been with the Brazilian political leadership. This is a deep story, Professor, that we can talk.
Oh, yeah, but I think we should get into that.

Speaker 1 Okay, so, okay, so that

Speaker 1 so your father was a city councilor in 1988 and a congressman in 1990, and then he spent 28 years in Congress. And

Speaker 1 the story that you're telling now is that he shifted the

Speaker 1 spectrum of political discourse in Brazil from center-left, radical-left, to radical left, center left. And what would you describe him? Where would you put him on the political spectrum?

Speaker 1 You describe yourself as center right.

Speaker 1 Yes, I'll put right.

Speaker 1 Why not people sometimes say, oh, far, far, far right.

Speaker 1 Far right for me is other thing because

Speaker 1 what Lulin the communists they want, they want to control the economy 100%.

Speaker 1 We want what is the opposite of control the economy 100%

Speaker 1 is

Speaker 1 when you do not have any kind of administration. It's Americo capitalist.
We are not Americo capitalists. We believe in a minimum size of the administration.

Speaker 1 We don't want to destroy the administration. We need the government to rule some things.
And

Speaker 1 you have to be very sensitive when you talk about that, to do not go far away. What is rule something? For example,

Speaker 1 you have the... right to go and back to your home to the work.

Speaker 1 All right, you drive your car, but you cannot drive your car on the wrong way because you are going to put in risk other people's life crashing other people's car.

Speaker 1 So to somehow rule this kind of situations and the situations where the individual cannot do, for example, everybody knows that, have the sense that kill each other is a wrong thing.

Speaker 1 All right, everybody believing that we should not be a society where everybody is killing everybody.

Speaker 1 So we need the police, we need somehow defend our territory from other countries because maybe you have in your neighborhood a dictatorship that wants to invade your country.

Speaker 1 If you look nowadays, to Ukraine and Russia, to Venezuela and Guyana, Maduro saying that he wants to get the territory of Ezekibo and some other parties of the world, makes sense that you need an army.

Speaker 1 So to defend your country, to defend your country, preserve your culture,

Speaker 1 to have

Speaker 1 a civilization on on the streets,

Speaker 1 police, and one or two points, you need a state, you need administration. So it's a limited government vision.

Speaker 1 Would you regard your view? Now, first of all, I guess I'd like to know: are your father and yourself relatively united in your political views?

Speaker 1 So, yes, okay, so we can just discuss that, the two of you, as a unit in some ways. I don't talk

Speaker 1 in his name, but

Speaker 1 okay, I got the picture. And so, the way that you laid out the Brazilian political landscape from over since 1985 is basically an argument between two parties on the left.

Speaker 1 And so I'm still trying to place the Brazilian political spectrum because in Canada, say, and also in the United States, you have the socialist types, let's say, and then you have the classic liberals who are more in the middle.

Speaker 1 And in Canada, traditionally, that was the left-hand side. Classical liberal Brazil would be on the right.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 And so, but so, and the right wing that you're talking about in Brazil, would you describe that? Could you characterize it as more libertarian? Would you call it more classic liberal?

Speaker 1 Or would you call it more classic conservative?

Speaker 1 I consider myself classical conservative. Okay.
But I'm very afraid, for example, of the

Speaker 1 classical liberal when you talk about economy. Because if you go to Brazil and you say, I'm a liberal, they are not going to link you with the left.
They're going to link you with the right.

Speaker 1 Because that's what I was wondering. Liberal here

Speaker 1 is people who want to control your life, control the free speech on social media, want a huge administration, increase the taxes. Right.
Liberal here in here. Increasingly means progressive, right?

Speaker 1 And that means left. Liberal in Brazil is

Speaker 1 fast taxes, free markets. Yeah, okay.
And the difference between our liberals and me, who are in the position of conservative, it would be about maybe drugs.

Speaker 1 They want to have more flexible rules about drugs. I'm against to open, you know, to have more flexibility on the drug law, for example, the regulations.
But

Speaker 1 you have some other, as in Brazil, we are deep in a moral crisis. This is not a priority.
The priority is to rescue our country. To people believe again that we can have

Speaker 1 an administration that take care of the people, take care of, look to the people. Because the current president, what he's doing, he's increasing the taxes, travel all around the world.

Speaker 1 Like the first year of Ludo de Silva as president of brazil he spent more than two months outside of brazil spending a little bit more than two hundred thousand dollars daily when he's traveling outside of brazil he's staying in the most expensive hotels you know and

Speaker 1 when he comes back to brazil he starts to tax people we have for example usually people in brazil when you buy something mainly from china and uh it's less than $50, the product that you are buying, you do not pay any kind of tax.

Speaker 1 And usually poor people or medium class, they do that. Lula is taxing even this kind of situation.
And he spent more money than my father, Dre Bolsonaro, when he was president during the pandemic.

Speaker 1 Imagine

Speaker 1 how can someone spend more money? than the other president during the pandemic. So that's why the price of the American dollars in Brazil is exploding and the numbers of the economy are not that good.

Speaker 1 Still, Lula da Silva, he had a situation where he's

Speaker 1 receiving a lot of benefit from the previous administration because he privatized a lot, we reduced a lot of taxes, we became the number four in the world when you talk about receiving foreign investments.

Speaker 1 We're doing very good. It was the first time in history that Brazil, we had less inflation than the United States

Speaker 1 because we had a liberal, classical liberal economy ministry called Paulo Gadges who received

Speaker 1 100% of autonomy from the president, from my father, to do his work. Because my father, he knows his place.
He said, I'm a non-economist.

Speaker 1 But I will appoint someone that can do the homework as never seen in Brazil. It was the first time since 1985 that we had a liberal, a Chicago boy, in the Ministry of Economy,

Speaker 1 like with the possibility to do his work.

Speaker 1 Okay, so let's build up to that again. So let's go back to when you ran for Congress.
So now at that point, your father is still a congressman. Okay, so take us through the story from there.

Speaker 1 All right, so keeping this story, in 2014, I was elected, 82,224 votes. And in my first term, I was looking to my father, increasing his popularity,

Speaker 1 going every place

Speaker 1 in Brazil, like usually on Thursday he traveled to a different state, coming back to the capital in Brazilia on Friday. So traveling every week, almost every week, all around Brazil.

Speaker 1 Talking about as a congressman. Yeah, still as a congressman.
What's making him popular?

Speaker 1 Why is he popular?

Speaker 1 Because he's a congressman. He's obviously distinguishing himself from other congressmen.
What's he doing differently that's attractive to somebody? Stepping outside of the political correct. Oh, yes.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 So when someone says that you are racist so okay why am i racist i do not support affirmative action for black people because in brazil since when the portuguese arrived in brazil in the year 1500 they start to mix with the indians then the blacks and we are all mixed

Speaker 1 you did go to brazil you can look to someone and say oh you look european you look latin you look indian you look black We don't have this issue as strong as you have here in the United States.

Speaker 1 So if you consider, if you vote against affirmative action for black people in Brazil, because we have black people very rich in Brazil,

Speaker 1 they say that you label you as a racist.

Speaker 1 For example, there was a bill in Brazil that if you look for the bill,

Speaker 1 you can clearly see that pastors could go to jail if they read a part of the Bible. Is it fair? No, this is unfair.
So when he positioned against this kind of bill, people say, you are homophobic.

Speaker 1 But in the end of the day, going to why it was so important he

Speaker 1 travel all around Brazil. Because when you go to some states, they have a local press and they do not receive a public money.

Speaker 1 So when you're talking on radio, you are talking with a maid, with a trucker driver, with, you know, regular common people. Or directly.

Speaker 1 And they listening to Jerry Bolsonaro, they say, this guy is not crazy. He's not the crazy guy that CNN tells me that he's crazy.
This guy, I agree with him.

Speaker 1 So when the election came in 2018,

Speaker 1 aside of this work, also the crazy of the internet, smartphone, social media, my father became a phenomenon. It was fashion, you know, support him.

Speaker 1 And thanks God, the left, the establishment, they were all the time saying that he was so ridiculous that he would never be the president. But he became elected

Speaker 1 in 2018. And at that time, I ran for my first election.
Do you know when

Speaker 1 he was starting to speak more broadly across Brazil

Speaker 1 early on? Do you think he had visions of the presidency at that point? Like, was this a... Yes.
You do? Yes. I do.
So that was an ambition.

Speaker 1 And when?

Speaker 1 The right feeling is he was fed up with the Congress. Like, you are only one in the middle of 513

Speaker 1 federal representatives. You don't have the power to do whatever you want.

Speaker 1 You can do bills, but to approve a bill is very different. He was looking at a radical left-wing administration ruling the country, deeply into corruption scandals all the time.

Speaker 1 And he started to think,

Speaker 1 if I Duma Joseph get elected, re-elected, Juma Joseph is a former president of Brazil, semi-party of Ludo da Silva, the current president, Labor's party. If a Jimo Joseph,

Speaker 1 who cannot connect one phrase with other phrase,

Speaker 1 pretty much the same opinion that people have from Kamala Harris here,

Speaker 1 why not me?

Speaker 1 And my father, he's really hardworking, really hardworking. Still nowadays, he's almost 70 years old and he's every time traveling, every time.

Speaker 1 I really admire him because I don't know if I, I'm 40, if I could have the same energy of my father to do all of the work that he does. So he starts to think, if Juman Joseph did that, why not me?

Speaker 1 Why I can't be the president? So he starts to

Speaker 1 go for that.

Speaker 1 He had a plan, all right? He has a project. He starts to go around, not saying that he's going to be the president, but after this work, people start to realize that he could be a president.

Speaker 1 Okay, now explain to us how the president is elected in Brazil.

Speaker 1 I mean, the prime minister in Canada is the leader of the party with the most seats, and the president in the United States is elected directly. What's the situation in Brazil?

Speaker 1 How is the president elected, and how is he,

Speaker 1 how is that position related to the other major branches of government in Brazil? Just lay out the structure. Brazil

Speaker 1 is a little bit different from Canada because it's presidentialism, not parliamentarism, and different from the US because here who win in the state get

Speaker 1 all the votes of the delegates. In Brazil, every vote counts.
Every voter, every people count.

Speaker 1 If you have more than 18 years old, you vote. From 18 until 70 years old, it's mandatory.
You have to vote. If you do not vote, you pay a fee.
You are finding $1.

Speaker 1 It's not a big deal, but it still is mandatory. And

Speaker 1 every country votes. So we are 210 million people living in Brazil.
I guess around nowadays 130, 140 million people in Brazil, they are able to vote. So you have to go all over the country.

Speaker 1 Here, I know the presidential candidates, they usually look,

Speaker 1 their focus is on the swing states, not in Brazil. In Brazil, you have to be everywhere, everywhere, which makes a little bit harder, you need more energy to do your campaign.

Speaker 1 And in 2018, my father did his campaign basically with a cell phone. I can tell you, my father didn't spend, to be very conservative in my accounts, he didn't even spend $1 million in his campaign.

Speaker 1 This is how powerful was the support in favor of Jerry Bolsonaro.

Speaker 1 His flags, defend the family, get back against the Patriots, reduce the size of the administration, respect the kids, no gender ideology in the schools,

Speaker 1 support the law enforcement, get the criminals to the jail, like as much time as you can send them to the jail. So it's the opposite of the left.
When you say that

Speaker 1 all of these flags, the left, they say, no, no, no, we need gender ideology, we need to respect everybody, and all of this

Speaker 1 narrative that you know, that they start to build.

Speaker 1 But the mainstream media all the time was labeling my father like racist, xenophobic, you don't like poor people, you don't like women you don't like black you don't like no one it's even funny because in the end of the day i don't even know if someone like that exists

Speaker 1 and uh people through mainly by internet the social media of my father was controlled by my brother kahlus

Speaker 1 the message that we gave to the people is this message of patron so how did you guys use social media like you said it was a very low-cost campaign which is extraordinarily interesting i mean one of the things the internet's going to do is to knock knock the prices of campaigns down dramatically because,

Speaker 1 well, Trump went on Rogan a week ago, 44 million views. Like, there's just, and those are voluntary views, obviously.
People are doing that on purpose, right?

Speaker 1 Rather than having their TV accidentally on to listen to a soundbite. And the barrier to entry on YouTube.
and to on the social media platforms is basically zero.

Speaker 1 We've seen this with Pierre Polyev in Canada. So he'll be the next prime minister by all by all accounts.
And

Speaker 1 the

Speaker 1 media in Canada, the legacy media, is increasingly state-controlled because it's subsidized. And so it's very pro-Trudeau.

Speaker 1 It also happens in Brazil. It also happens in Brazil.
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure it's the same thing. And Polyev just walked around them.
He set up his own social media channels, his own YouTube site.

Speaker 1 He built his own ads. He made micro-documentaries that were 10 minutes long.

Speaker 1 And some of his micro-documentaries were getting like 400,000 views which in Canada is a lot of views you know that'd be equivalent to well 4 million at least in the United States and so he just walked around them completely and you can see with with Rogan interviewing Trump and Vance this week I think the Vance interview already has like six million views there's just no need for the legacy media and and and so you guys were early adopters of that new technology like a million dollars for a campaign that's that's nothing and so

Speaker 1 did you use all the main social media platforms like were you were you guys i don't know what active in brazil like it would be facebook and instagram and and x and youtube primarily tick tock in that's right in the united states is it the same in brazil this is the same it's the same situation but i have to go back in 2018 uh we had way more freedom like no one nowadays i i can guarantee to you that sometimes people think maybe even write on x

Speaker 1 but they do not post that to not have problems with the Supreme Court. Right, right.
We'll get into that.

Speaker 1 And I'll tell you, how I can make you believe that my father didn't spend even $1 million and almost all of the campaign we did through the social media is because he got elected in 2018 and he took office on January of 2019.

Speaker 1 Since 2019, the Supreme Court of Brazil, they opened

Speaker 1 an investigation called the Fake News Investigation. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 Trying to comprove that jair bolsonaro he had kind of ai or an office fitted with public money to destroy the reputation of the journalists and the reputation of the communists and all the other players in the election since 2019 we are in 2024 this investigation is still open

Speaker 1 they just turned our life you know towards

Speaker 1 they just uh did everything that i can do in terms of investigation against my family, against my father. The federal police went to my father's house to take his vaccine card.

Speaker 1 It's funny, this is other things that we have to talk about. The accusations that they say, the accusations against us.

Speaker 1 And still,

Speaker 1 they cannot prove. So they were, were they shot? Okay, so two things could be happening there.
I mean, one,

Speaker 1 and maybe both are happening. One could be that it's merely an organized harassment campaign.

Speaker 1 But the other thing is, is that perhaps they're also completely stunned at how successful that tactic was and couldn't believe that it could possibly be managed with no budget whatsoever and merely by communicating.

Speaker 1 See, what do you not believe? Or could build a narrative to destroy us? Yeah,

Speaker 1 reality is just a piece of something.

Speaker 1 Reality doesn't matter. No matter the narrative that they build inside of the mind of the people.

Speaker 1 Because in the end of the day, the elite, the radical left, they are smart enough they knew that we won the elections doing everything that we did in social media traveling all over the country because the majority part of us

Speaker 1 you know in in the US

Speaker 1 there recently I think it was within the last six months Gavin Newsom who's the governor of California made some denigrating comments about Joe Rogan calling him his son watches Joe Rogan and me which I'm quite happy about and

Speaker 1 he described Joe Rogan as a fringe figure and I thought, see, that's really relevant because Gavin Newsom is a fringe figure compared to Joe Rogan.

Speaker 1 Joe, I think Joe's podcast is number one in 192 countries. I'm not sure it's 192.
It might be 92, but it doesn't matter. It's a lot of countries.

Speaker 1 And so he's definitely the most powerful journalist who's ever lived by a large margin. And CNN is a fringe organization compared to Rogan.

Speaker 1 But the left in particular, and I would say even the liberals in the more classic sense, they don't understand this at all. They still think that

Speaker 1 CNN and MSNBC and the Washington Post for that matter matter. And they do to some limited degree, but that time is seriously over.

Speaker 1 And so I'm wondering, even in Brazil, it could be that you guys were seriously on the cutting edge of the communication revolution.

Speaker 1 And the people that are watching you just have absolutely no idea how powerful it is because that isn't their territory. Yes, yes.

Speaker 1 And the thing that makes us kind of special is because my father, he has authenticity. He is original.

Speaker 1 He's pretty much like Trump.

Speaker 1 He do not stop to think, oh, I'm going to speak that. Is it good or bad? Let me do it this way.
No, no. They think they talk.

Speaker 1 You know, it doesn't matter if

Speaker 1 it's going to hurt you, it's your problem. Sorry if you are so sensitive.

Speaker 1 So people start to trust you. You open a live streaming.
Like, I remember that when a new scandal against my father, oh, he's a racist. Oh, he's this and that.

Speaker 1 When something show up, the first thing that he does is open a live streaming and start to talk about that openly. That's why people trust on him.

Speaker 1 You know, all the other politicians, before a speaker doing an interview, the first thing that they do, they go to someone on one of the assets that, oh, you are from the market. Should I say that?

Speaker 1 Am I going to earn more votes saying this or that and then they call the press for a conference and do a beautiful speech

Speaker 1 so we are on the other way if you look for the social media of my father you are going to see that uh most part of the videos are low-cost videos you don't need a cell phone to do that it's not something beautiful with content and edited you know so uh so these things make

Speaker 1 you connect with the people right for example one of the things they always try to say is that, oh, Jerry Bolsonaro, he's not rumble.

Speaker 1 Like he wears soccer team jerseys to pretend to be someone popular.

Speaker 1 But my father is the same in front of the cameras and behind of the cameras. And in the end of the day, people realize that.

Speaker 1 There was a very, a very special case when he was president right in the beginning of the pandemic, where you had people on the beaches of Rio de Janeiro getting arrested because the whole city was in a lockdown, very strong lockdown.

Speaker 1 So it was forbidden to you, get out of your house, basically like that, like in Canada.

Speaker 1 And you have some videos of one or two ladies on the beach and the cops going there to arrest

Speaker 1 these people.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 in a meeting of the president, my father, Jabol Sonaro, with his ministries, he's talking like

Speaker 1 using very bad and very strong words

Speaker 1 Why is not the justice ministry talking about this kind of issue? Drug dealers cannot be arrested like that. Why ladies on the beach getting DV, Tamin, are going to be in jail because of that?

Speaker 1 And at this meeting, he with his ministers, it was recorded, but not for the public. How people watched that?

Speaker 1 Because the Supreme Court, I think one year after all of that,

Speaker 1 God gave an order to the president, hey, President Bolsonaro, we want the video of your meetings with the ministries. And he gave.

Speaker 1 For the lucky of my father,

Speaker 1 expecting to give in the first hand, the breaking news to the people, oh, look, President Bolsonaro talking bad words. Look how bad he is behind the scenes.
This is Bolsonaro.

Speaker 1 CNN broadcast the video live before see that.

Speaker 1 And in fact, you have my father talking bad words for the justice ministry to some of the people like around him

Speaker 1 in our White House. You know what? People loved.

Speaker 1 People just loved. People said, Bon Sonaru just got re-elected because of this video.

Speaker 1 Because people see that this is the president that I voted for, defending people. Come on,

Speaker 1 who judges think they are? Who you think the cops think they are to arrest some ladies on the beach? I went because

Speaker 1 I remind that that day I was in Sao Paulo and I do surf. I went to the sea to surf

Speaker 1 and people came to me, other surfers came to me. Oh, Busonaro, because I'm also

Speaker 1 a federal congressman. Busonaro, your father, he's the best.
People start to accomplish me on the water. This is not a common.

Speaker 1 Usually surfers, when they go to the water, maybe you can talk with one or other, but it's not a common, you gather in the water, you know, with others.

Speaker 1 So it was proven that Boulson is the same one in front of the cameras and behind of the cameras.

Speaker 1 That's another thing that's very interesting about the social media landscape. I mean,

Speaker 1 I know a lot of the main players, obviously, who are pioneers, particularly in YouTube, particularly in the podcast domain. And

Speaker 1 all the ones that I know are the same in front of the camera as they are off. Rogan's a

Speaker 1 classic example of that. I mean, you see.
He's the same or he's not the same. He's exactly the same.
All right.

Speaker 1 All of the people that are hyper-popular as podcasters that I know are exactly the same on their podcasts as they are off. There's no persona.
And part of that is that lack of professionalism.

Speaker 1 You know, and it isn't exactly lack of professionalism.

Speaker 1 It's what's happened is that as people have become more and more able able to do video editing themselves, for example, they're much more video literate than they were

Speaker 1 nowadays.

Speaker 1 Yeah, well, yeah,

Speaker 1 people on YouTube, for example, nobody trusts edited YouTube videos because they don't trust editing. And so

Speaker 1 you want to see the conversation unfold as it does unfold. And I've talked with Rogan about this

Speaker 1 to some

Speaker 1 decent degree about interviewing people, you know, and his experience too is that

Speaker 1 you can tell who's an empty suit after about 20 minutes, right?

Speaker 1 Because we're having an unstructured conversation and we both have to be able to track it and it has to go where it's going to go, but it has to stay coherent and it has to stay interesting and we both have to be engaged.

Speaker 1 And there's really just no way of staging that. And if you try to stage it, it just falls flat.

Speaker 1 The other thing that happens too, we experienced this at the ARC conference in London, is that if it's politicized in a way that's ego-driven, it also fails.

Speaker 1 So at ARC,

Speaker 1 the discussions that were more political were much less successful on YouTube and at the conference than the ones that were more philosophical and that were more direct.

Speaker 1 So the new media landscape, I think it's partly a consequence of bandwidth. There's no bandwidth restriction, right? So, I mean, 20 years ago, a minute on network television was extremely expensive.

Speaker 1 And so everything had to be crafted and edited and

Speaker 1 produced. And now there's no bandwidth limitation whatsoever.
So none of that's necessary.

Speaker 1 And it's also the case that people have a much longer span of attention for listening than the TV types presume.

Speaker 1 Now, They presumed that partly because they were concerned with bandwidth and trying to conserve time. But then they kind of thought that, well, people only had a 30-second attention span.

Speaker 1 It's like, no, it turns out that people have a three-hour attention span, no problem. And of course, Rogan, above all, demonstrated that.
And so, okay, and so your dad

Speaker 1 did the same thing that Polyev did, essentially, and maybe earlier, about the same time, really, because Polyev was starting to work directly to social media at that time as well.

Speaker 1 Okay, now the leader of the Conservative Party in Canada. All right.
Because he's the other one I know who's used social media so effectively.

Speaker 1 And I really think

Speaker 1 that's what's going to happen. This is a shift in the way politics is going to be conducted.

Speaker 1 There's absolutely no reason that political leaders can't take their message directly to people with no intermediaries. And I think that's going to be extremely beneficial.

Speaker 1 And so, well, it worked very well for you folks. Okay, so your father was elected president 2018? Yep.
And how long was he president?

Speaker 1 Four years. Four years.

Speaker 1 So he was.

Speaker 1 If I may, Professor, excuse me,

Speaker 1 open apartheid.

Speaker 1 One month before the election, he also got stabbed in Belli during the campaign. This is very important to say because he was almost killed by a former member of the Socialist and Liberty Party, Sol.

Speaker 1 This party in Brazil is radical left. They are connected.

Speaker 1 They have a lot of pictures and trips here to US to have meetings with AOC, Bernie Sanders, and this kind of people, who is the radical left part of the Democratic Party.

Speaker 1 The name of the guy who stabbed my father, his name is Adelio Bispu.

Speaker 1 My father was on the streets campaigning with a crowd of 20 or 30,000 people around him in the city of Jujifla. One of the securities of my father put a hand on his shoulders.

Speaker 1 So you have videos on YouTube everywhere.

Speaker 1 And the guy came with a knife, jumped and stabbed my father, twisted a little bit, and the knife got into the belly of my father 15 centimeters and cutting some parts his intestine.

Speaker 1 At that time, in the moment that it happened, you could not see the

Speaker 1 too much blood.

Speaker 1 You can see that there was a cut

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 their security running to a hospital with him. In the hospital, the doctors diagnosed,

Speaker 1 identified that he was with an internal hemorrhagy. He lost about 2.5 liters of blood.
He died twice and he went to the synergy

Speaker 1 and you have a lot of these more than two liters of blood together with,

Speaker 1 how can I say that politely in English,

Speaker 1 with shit,

Speaker 1 which makes you think, oh, so for sure he had an infection after that. Like it's a miracle he survived.
The doctor said two more minutes on the way to the hospital, two more minutes delay, he's done.

Speaker 1 He would be out of blue to the heart to bomb.

Speaker 1 When he arrived in the hospital in the emergency, he had exactly the specialist, medical specialist required for this kind of situation, which is very hairy in Brazil. He has a Gastro

Speaker 1 medical doctor for that part.

Speaker 1 The security of my father, also

Speaker 1 he they know exactly the way to the closest hospital. So the driver was a local that knew the fastest way to arrive in the hospital.
And one day before, my father, he had a problem in the throat.

Speaker 1 And a friend, Joso Machado, which is our former tourism minister, he gave a medicine to my father, antibiotic to my father. Bosonaro, you are feeling sick a little bit on the throat.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but your campaign, you know,

Speaker 1 you cannot wait.

Speaker 1 It become worse to receive an antibiotic take this pill with the antibiotic so my father started to have antibiotic so this is i think what it prevented should get infection because it's a lot of blood with uh feces inside of of his body so he survived that

Speaker 1 but more than 70 percent of the time of the campaign in brazil have 45 days that you can campaign

Speaker 1 more than 70% of this period of time, my father was in a hospital. So he could not go to the streets running all over the country, delivering his message

Speaker 1 to run, to do a presidential campaign. And still,

Speaker 1 he got elected. This is very important.
This is also very important to say, because people do a lot of, they compare with the Trump situation after

Speaker 1 the shooting case. right next to his head.
And

Speaker 1 it's one more thing that Trump have in common with my father.

Speaker 1 So after that he got elected and I also became the most voted ever federal representative, most voted ever federal representative in the history of Brazil. Now he did or you did? I did.
You did.

Speaker 1 I did for the Congress, he did as president. I received almost 2 million votes.
In my first campaign, my first election, 2014, 82,000.

Speaker 1 2018, almost 2 million. So it was a huge message for all of the country.
Our party became very strong.

Speaker 1 We were in a very small party that we had only three congressmen. After the 2018 election, we became 52.

Speaker 1 And nowadays, after the 22 elections, we are almost 100 congressmen in my party. So it shows that the wave is still increasing.

Speaker 1 You know, it's not that, oh, Bolsonaro lost the election and okay, the movement is over. No, no, no, the the movement is too strong.

Speaker 1 And the only way that the legacy media, for example, sees to control us is controlling the narrative with the new bills against the free speech. Right, right.
That's okay.

Speaker 1 Okay, so let's go to the 2022 election. So that was, it was six, you said, just a number of days before that election that your father was just about killed.

Speaker 1 Yeah, one month before the election of 2018. One month.
And what was the outcome of the election at the presidential level in 2022?

Speaker 1 Yeah, 2022 it was the election that my father wanted for re-election but he lost

Speaker 1 right and and it was a month before that that he was almost killed no in 2018.

Speaker 1 oh that was in 2020 okay sorry it was 2018 forgive my ignorance so no no no that's okay yeah so okay so what happened in 2022 why why did he lose the election

Speaker 1 then

Speaker 1 i have to take care about my words because uh in brazil depending what you talk you can be considered anti-democratic

Speaker 1 To talk to the Americans here that are watching us, remember that Trump in Georgia, he was the mugshot

Speaker 1 because he was talking about the

Speaker 1 election process.

Speaker 1 But you have a bunch of videos of Hillary Clinton and some other people from the Democratic Party saying that they do not trust in the election. Maybe the 2016 election wasn't 100%

Speaker 1 trustable.

Speaker 1 But with Trump, things change. So with us, things changes in Brazil too.
And we have a target

Speaker 1 on our head. So I have to take care about what I'm going to say to do not have problems when I come back to home.

Speaker 1 In 2022 elections, there are

Speaker 1 two theories. One theory is

Speaker 1 the machines that we use to vote, because in Brazil it's fully electronic. You go to a machine developed by the government and you dial the number of your candidate.

Speaker 1 For example, the number of my father was 22. Our party number is 22.
So, you want to vote for Bolsonaro? You dial 22 and press the green button.

Speaker 1 That's it. And then you pray for God that someone in the capital, the bureaucrats, are going to count your vote properly.
But you do not receive, you don't have a way to recount that.

Speaker 1 You don't have a way to audit that.

Speaker 1 You know, you just go home and that's it.

Speaker 1 Pretty much like in Venezuela.

Speaker 1 In Venezuela they have a similar system of Brazil and in 2022 I'm not going to talk about we we also have to be careful about discussing such things here and it's more a consequence of lawsuits and so I was warned before the interview started to tread very lightly on the territory that we're investigating now and it seems to me that independently of the reliability and validity of the electronic voting process, these are problems that you just don't have with paper ballots because there they are and you can recount them.

Speaker 1 And so,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 1 to give the devil his due, you can certainly understand that if electronic voting machines

Speaker 1 had a track record that was as solid as paper, they're more efficient and can be tabulated faster. But the truth of the matter is we don't know anything about this new technology, right?

Speaker 1 And you introduce a radically new technology into the process that determines your political electorate at your peril, right? And so conservatives know such things, unintended consequences.

Speaker 1 Okay, so with that side, I'm going to go back to the election. I'll not talk about the story, all right? Let's say that our machine is 100% fully trustable.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 But still,

Speaker 1 in Brazil, who organize the elections, who coordinate the elections, and who judge everything about the elections in Brazil is a court called Superior Electoral Court.

Speaker 1 I will say only electoral court, referring myself to this court.

Speaker 1 Who is on the head of this court? Who is the president, the chairman of this electoral court?

Speaker 1 Is a justice from the Supreme Court. His name is Alejandro de Gimorais.
On 2022, it was Alexandria Gimorais. This is the name that I would like you to save on your mind, Aleción de Morais.

Speaker 1 This man, he has a personal problem with my father and with our family. He did a lot of interventions in the executive power and sometimes even in the legislative, in the Congress.
And

Speaker 1 he was on. This is during your father's administration.
Yes. During my father's administration, we had a lot of conflicts with him.
So he was on the head of this electoral court.

Speaker 1 So this electoral court,

Speaker 1 you had ridiculous

Speaker 1 decisions such as my father could not open a live streaming from his cell cell phone at his house.

Speaker 1 Why? They say that, because all the other candidates, they do not have a house, a public house paid with public money. Because when you are president, you live in the White House.

Speaker 1 Who paid the rent of the White House? Who paid the energy and the water of the White House is a taxpayer. So the reason that they found...

Speaker 1 to avoid Jerry Bolsonaro. Jerry Bolsonaro was forbidden to broadcast from his house.

Speaker 1 So if he would like to start live streaming from his Facebook, he would get a car, get out of his house, and start a live streaming.

Speaker 1 This is a point to show you understand how ridiculous was the decision during this period of time. And more than that,

Speaker 1 we could not say some words to define our oppositor, Lula da Silva. There is a

Speaker 1 The number one conservative media in Brazil is called Jo Vempan.

Speaker 1 Jo Vempin, they received an order saying that they cannot reference, the journalists of Jove Venpin could not say that Lula is a criminal, is a thief, or that he was unconvicted from the convictions that he had in the past.

Speaker 1 Because Lula da Silva, the current president, the Supreme Court,

Speaker 1 he was convicted for laundering money and corruption in the past. But two years before the election, they overturned all of that and let Lula da Silva run for president.

Speaker 1 And all of the establishment was in favor of his election, very clearly. So this is how the election election happened in Brazil.

Speaker 1 So I can tell you, even if you believe that our machines that we use to vote is 100% okay, 100% trustable, it wasn't a fed election. Because basically...
How close was the margin?

Speaker 1 My father made 49.1 or 2%. Lula made

Speaker 1 49 and 51%. Right, so really split down the middle, eh? Really split.
So tight margins.

Speaker 1 Yeah, well, any election where there's tight margins like that, it's also, you know, you could imagine that even a well-run political system is, what would you say, corrupt 1%.

Speaker 1 You know, and if the margin is 1%, that makes things very awkward. Yes, and you have some other things that I could add.

Speaker 1 For example, the most left-wing states that we have, they were voting even after 5 p.m. on Sunday.
Because in our election, everybody goes to vote at the same day.

Speaker 1 The first Sunday of October, you have to vote from 8 a.m. until 5 p.m.
All right? After that, it's close.

Speaker 1 Anyone else can vote anymore. But

Speaker 1 in the states, where they have the majority in favor of the left-wing politicians, the state of Bahia and some other states on the northeast of Brazil, which is the major part of the Brazilians, receive assistance from the government to survive.

Speaker 1 In these states, people were voting 6, 7, 8 p.m.

Speaker 1 And some million more votes were added in the election. So what I can say, and I cannot prove, to be very honest, Professor, what I can say is

Speaker 1 in Brazil, the people who sit on the desks, taking the idea of the people and letting them go vote, most part of these people, they know each other because they are the same people election after election.

Speaker 1 who are there on the school, the sessions, on the electoral sessions, receiving people to vote.

Speaker 1 So, if everybody is left-wing, if you do not have morals, you are not left-wing, usually politicians of left-wing, they do not care about values or morals, you can say, Okay, let's see in the list who did not vote yet, and let's go vote in their names.

Speaker 1 It can happen.

Speaker 1 So,

Speaker 1 if you stop people to vote after 5 p.m.,

Speaker 1 as is the electoral law requires us to be,

Speaker 1 it would be way more transparency, way more trust about our election. I'm telling you that you have a lot of way to do frauds.

Speaker 1 All of them were used. Okay, so let me ask you a question

Speaker 1 in my opinion.

Speaker 1 Well, if you looked at your father's administration over that four-year period,

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 1 that was his first foray into the presidency. Certainly, Trump has

Speaker 1 announced recently that,

Speaker 1 like, your father had a lot more political experience by the time he took the presidency than Trump had. Trump had business experience, but that's not exactly the same thing.

Speaker 1 But I presume that your family

Speaker 1 has reviewed the inadequacies, let's say, of your father's first presidency.

Speaker 1 What mistakes do you think were made under his leadership that might have also compromised the election? The main thing that people comply about my father is that he talks too much.

Speaker 1 But I mean,

Speaker 1 it's the opinion of the people. We usually say that, okay, are you voting for president or you want a boyfriend or a girlfriend?

Speaker 1 You know, he talks too much, but the economy is going good.

Speaker 1 The criminals are having a very tough time with my father. You know, regular citizen, they are having a better life.
You have less bureaucracy.

Speaker 1 You can take care of your life, you know, a lot of benefits.

Speaker 1 But the press all the time, they are doing some kind of

Speaker 1 notorious scandal because depending on what my father was using to say, because he has no future, sometimes getting out of his house, he stop and start to talk with the people with the press around and use non-politically correct words.

Speaker 1 And it became a scandal. You know, in the end of the day, you can affect talking that so much every day, it affects, you know, people, and maybe you change your priorities.

Speaker 1 Well, certainly his reputation outside of, you know, I got low.

Speaker 1 Outside of Brazil is bad. If you go to Rioto, people think that my father is the avio.
Yeah, yeah. Well, and I would say, like...
He's burning Amazon. He's

Speaker 1 right, right. Well, I can't say that.
like my knowledge of Brazil is shallow, certainly.

Speaker 1 And so what that means is that whatever impressions I picked up about the Bolsonaro administration were like secondhand representations from the legacy media, right? Not even necessarily direct.

Speaker 1 And it was certainly the case that the gut sense, I would say, of the typical North American with regards to Bolsonaro was, you know, dangerous right-winger. So definitely.

Speaker 1 Now, I'm a lot more skeptical about such terminology, you know, now that I was, let's say, eight years ago or even five years ago. But

Speaker 1 those sorts of... of, see, one of the problems is, is that

Speaker 1 it's very easy to tag people, right? Because

Speaker 1 you can think about it psychologically

Speaker 1 in a manner that's appropriate. There's a lot of people that you could listen to.
There's eight billion people you could listen to.

Speaker 1 And so you need a reason not to listen to most people because there's just too many people.

Speaker 1 And so If you hear something bad about someone that you don't know, it's easier just to to assume, well, you can just write them off.

Speaker 1 And it doesn't matter because there's 8 billion other people to choose from, right? So my point is, it's very easy to smear someone's reputation.

Speaker 1 It's very easy, especially, I think you can especially do that. You can do that especially with disgust rather than fear.
Disgust is even more

Speaker 1 effective than fear. And so, anyways, I mean, my impression of

Speaker 1 For what it's worth, my impression of the Bolsonaro administration was definitely colored by the pronouncements of the legacy media that this was another far-right,

Speaker 1 another far-right movement, right? And

Speaker 1 I mean, the same thing basically happened to Maloney in Italy and to Orban in Hungary. And so,

Speaker 1 well, and I do think it's part and parcel of the operation of the legacy media and the sway that the progressives have over the universities and the legacy media. It's the same thing in Brazil.

Speaker 1 It's also interesting to see that exactly the same thing is playing out there that's playing out in the United States and Canada and all through Europe.

Speaker 1 And that's why Brazil is important to the United States, because we are the lab.

Speaker 1 The ideas usually come from here

Speaker 1 and they apply in Brazil. So why Americans should pay attention in Brazil?

Speaker 1 Because we have a unique thing when you talk about a censorship is because everywhere in the world it comes through the hands of the president of the prime minister.

Speaker 1 For example, you have big issues with Trudeau or with the C-16 law and whatever, but in Brazil is the Supreme Court. Yeah, yeah, so we can delve into that.

Speaker 1 Now, this gentleman that you talked about, the Supreme Court, now he's Chandridge Morais. Now, is he the same one? Again, I'm exposing my ignorance here, so forgive me.

Speaker 1 Is he the same one who's at odds with Musk? Okay, so it is this. Okay, that's what I assume.
I just wanted to make sure that that.

Speaker 1 Okay, so why don't you unravel that story for us? You started, you started, you started going down that road and that.

Speaker 1 Okay, so what role is the Supreme Court playing in Brazil at the moment? And why is it that Musk got embroiled in

Speaker 1 this very, very public,

Speaker 1 internationally public argument with the Brazilian Supreme Court? Explain that.

Speaker 1 Alicion de Morazi was the chairman of the electoral court, and he was too aggressive in the 2022 elections, mainly.

Speaker 1 In the 2022 elections, what happened? Around 100 conservative profiles on Twitter got blocked.

Speaker 1 To be blocked in Brazil, our law says that you need to give to the other side, to the users, the right to defend himself. And the platform has 48 hours to block someone.
This is

Speaker 1 general law in Brazil. What was happening in Brazil is Alicia de Moraes was ordering Twitter and some other platforms, I guess, because I'm not that damn to think it was happening only with Twitter.

Speaker 1 Right, right. So he was addressing orders to Twitter saying, block these and that people

Speaker 1 in one hour. If you don't do that, I will fine you.
And

Speaker 1 it was,

Speaker 1 I can tell you, around

Speaker 1 $20,000, $30,000 to start.

Speaker 1 It was a huge fine, you know,

Speaker 1 daily, daily, if you do not accomplish accomplish with his orders but the main thing is

Speaker 1 alessiono demorais ordered according with glenn greenwald journalist uh articles that came up like a couple of months ago alession demorais was uh

Speaker 1 saying to twitter platform do not tell the users that are getting blocked that this order is coming from me oh yeah

Speaker 1 this is key because during 2022 elections brazilians Brazilians got a pissed off with Twitter because you get your cell phone and then there is a black screen saying you were blocked because you violated one of our internal policies.

Speaker 1 And then it's like, but what post did I do that makes me be blocked in the platform? You don't know. These are the candidates you're speaking of? No, for everybody in general.

Speaker 1 So this was happening quite a bit. You have candidates, you have regular people, you have influencers, you have YouTubers like

Speaker 1 Luciano Hange, for example, who is a very strong supporter of my father. He's a billionaire.
He got blocked in this situation. So you are getting outside.

Speaker 1 Imagine in the United States, you are going to run for president and you cannot see what Tucker Carlson, Jordan Peterson, Joe Rogan, what they are posting or producing on their platforms.

Speaker 1 This was the situation in Brazil. Right.
So I'm adding

Speaker 1 Twitter too when he was president. So that's quite remarkable.
Yes. And Elen, he bought Twitter right between the first and the second round of the Brazilian election in October of 2022.

Speaker 1 That's why we know all of that nowadays.

Speaker 1 One year ago, we would be still pissed off his Twitter.

Speaker 1 But why? Elon Musk started a fight,

Speaker 1 I don't know,

Speaker 1 months ago with Alecion de Morais. Alexander de Moraes, he has, this justice of the Supreme Court, he has a Twitter account.

Speaker 1 And he was talking about about something, posting his opinion or whatever about something. And then Elon came and commented, why are you demanding so much censorship in Brazil? Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 Boom, then the things start.

Speaker 1 The chairman of the Justice Committee of the House of the US Congress, Mr. Gene Jordan,

Speaker 1 he asked Elon Musk to give all the emails changed with the Brazilian authorities during the 2022 election period of time. Oh yeah.
With these emails, now

Speaker 1 we know after the report of Gene Jordan in the U.S.

Speaker 1 Congress, you have around 500 pages in this report, you know that Alicia de Jimorais, now, I mean, the electoral court was sending emails to Twitter saying to block people.

Speaker 1 And some of the people, for example, the journalist Paulo Figuerido,

Speaker 1 he only knew why he was blocked in 2022 looking to

Speaker 1 these reports. So, this is the level of censorship that we had.
And this is the problem because this is not only about Brazil.

Speaker 1 Oh, that's for sure. Europe authorities.
Alexander de Moraes and some other authorities of Brazil do speech in Paris, in London, in New York. They are spreading the virus.

Speaker 1 And you have some press articles saying that some of the European authority were looking closely this fight between Alexei de Jimorais and Elon Musk to cop

Speaker 1 to Europe yeah yeah yeah because what happened now I would shock with the Americans that don't know this story deeply I'm talking about Twitter Elon Musk against Alicia Morais right well the the the there was a top EU official whose name escapes me at the moment unfortunately who complained although apparently not with the full authority of the EU about the fact that Musk was talking to Trump

Speaker 1 That he complained using his EU. A Brazilian one.
No, no, you're an EU, an EU representative. Unfortunately, I can't remember his name.
We'll put it in the notes. But

Speaker 1 he complained that Musk was talking to Trump, right? So this. What is the crime in that? What is the crime?

Speaker 1 The House of

Speaker 1 Representatives in the U.S.

Speaker 1 actually wrote a response letter, and I think it was Jim Jordan who signed it telling him to really mind his own bloody business as he should have and the EU to their credit did separate themselves technically from him although you know I don't know the I don't know the entire background of the story but the reason I'm bringing it up is because I that it lends credence to your claim that the EU bureaucrats who are not the least bit happy with Elon Musk and the same thing could be said about the UK especially the Labour Party there right they're definitely Musk's enemies and will do whatever they need to to stop him.

Speaker 1 And so, and that is being played out in Brazil.

Speaker 1 That's part of the reason why I think this podcast should be of broad interest to the international community.

Speaker 1 Because they're saying, as Brazil, we have this special case because the censorship is coming through the hands of one of the justices of the Supreme Court. And also, Alexander Jamorais fined Twitter.

Speaker 1 And the first response of Twitter is that they're not going to pay this fine, but after one month, they paid to get back again Twitter in Brazil because they were banned.

Speaker 1 So the Europeans, authorities, like the woke people, the progressive, they were enjoying that. Oh, wait a minute.

Speaker 1 So if we do that through the hands of the courts, maybe we can control Elon Musk, you know, and force them to censorship whoever I want.

Speaker 1 So this is the point. And what I would say that was shocking is that to do that, Alexei de Gimoirais not only banned Twitter, he threatened to arrest the Twitter tribe in Brazil.

Speaker 1 Right, yes, I remember. So that's why, thanks, President of Argentina, Javier Mele, he offered asylum to this kind of people.

Speaker 1 They said publicly through Twitter, if the Brazilians want to come to Argentina, they are more than welcome because here we do preserve the freedom and the free speech and all of that.

Speaker 1 So thank you, Javier Millé, the greatest president of Latin America by far. And the second thing is Alecón de Jimorais freezed

Speaker 1 some of the resources of Starlink. Yes, well, Starlink wasn't in the business.

Speaker 1 Europeans are toying with that too.

Speaker 1 I've looked at some of their background legislation and the fine structures Canada is playing with this too, by the way, under the auspices of a bill called C63, which is the most totalitarian piece of legislation I've ever seen written in the West by a large margin.

Speaker 1 Way worse than nefarious Bill C-16. That was just the warm-up.

Speaker 1 In any case, the fines that are being proposed in Bill C-63, which I imagine will be somewhat of a template for the impending war against Musk,

Speaker 1 involve percentages of company revenue worldwide. Like, I think in the Canadian bill, it's 6% of company revenue worldwide per day.
Revenue, not profit, revenue.

Speaker 1 Well, and then the question is: well, is it X revenue or is it X revenue and Starlink revenue and Tesla revenue?

Speaker 1 And well, you can be certain that that'll be interpreted in the most liberal manner possible. Because Ila is not the owner of Starlink.
He has, I guess, 42% of the company, but he's not the owner.

Speaker 1 You have way other people around

Speaker 1 in the same company.

Speaker 1 Details, details.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 Bill Wackman, some other billionaires, start to complain, wait, wait, wait,

Speaker 1 this thing of the the Brazilian Supreme Court is too far. You know,

Speaker 1 it's too much power on only one person's hands. And it can be very dangerous because we know how dictatorship starts.
And when they start, usually they have support of part of the people.

Speaker 1 But on the next day, the supporters will be the target of the dictator. That's for sure.

Speaker 1 In all the dictatorships, it happens.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 this is one of the things that are happening in this dispute with Twitter.

Speaker 1 and that's also why the U.S. Congress are giving their attention to Brazil.
And nowadays, we have a bill from the Representative Mario Vira Salazar from Florida.

Speaker 1 It was approved in the committees of the House and is ready to be voted from the House. We only need that the Chairman, Mike Johnson, to put that, to be vote.
And this bill says that if any

Speaker 1 foreigner authority does not respect the First Amendment of an American citizen outside of US,

Speaker 1 they will lose their visa to come to US. The country? Yeah, yeah.
For example, if a Brazilian authority do not respect the free speech of Elon Musk or any other American,

Speaker 1 he is not able to come into

Speaker 1 the United States. He will lose his visa.

Speaker 1 So this bill, we hope that is going to be approved in the House because after that I'm sure that the US administration even more with Trump I'm always supporting Trump that it can be can be applied fully applied right it's a way to avoid this kind of authority because they have too much power they are doing whatever they want even with American companies and come on Twitter is following all of the American and US law why

Speaker 1 Brazilians are the Brazilian Supreme Court is banning Twitter outside of Brazil. So it's a way to force people to respect the law.
If the Brazilian authorities, if they were respecting the law.

Speaker 1 Well, the war, you know, the war is really going to be.

Speaker 1 So Americans arguably have the most potent protection for free speech rights in the world. I think that's a reasonable thing to say.

Speaker 1 I mean, countries like Britain, European countries, there's a tradition of free speech, but it's really,

Speaker 1 our free speech protections in Canada are very weak by comparison, very weak. And that's certainly been demonstrated in recent years.

Speaker 1 We have a Charter of Rights, but it's got so many loopholes in it that,

Speaker 1 administratively and technically, that,

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 1 should I say it's not worth the paper it's written on? I'd probably say that. In any case, that's not the case in the U.S.,

Speaker 1 because the right to free speech is extremely well protected. And so what we're going to see really

Speaker 1 is like a war in cyberspace between the principles of American law fundamentally and the principles that govern the rest of the world, because the American social media companies dominate and they run, especially X, on the principle of free speech.

Speaker 1 And so that's another reason why the situation in Brazil and in the European Union is so incredibly important. Now, this Supreme Court official, how does he derive his power? How long is he in office?

Speaker 1 Like, where does he get his legitimacy and his authority? And how is he regarded by Brazilians?

Speaker 1 When they are appointed for the Supreme Court, the president appoints the candidate for the Supreme Court and the Senate, after a Sabatin, approved the name of the person.

Speaker 1 So in 2017, Alexander Jimorais took office in the Supreme Court as a justice of the Supreme Court, and he will stay there until he completes 75 years old.

Speaker 1 So by the year of 2040, something

Speaker 1 he will retire. I see.
so unless he wants to resign right but who can stop

Speaker 1 and under what administration was he appointed before my father on the one immediately before your father and the curious thing is is it wasn't a radical left president it was pretty much a central central right president michel temer who appointed him no one would expect alechanda de jumoraes who to do things like he's just i see i see it's and how do you explain it

Speaker 1 it's establishment His mission was to take Bolsonaro out of power and end with this spontaneous movement created not only by my father, because my father is the political leader of this right-wing conservative movement, but on the philosophy part, you have other key men that unfortunately last year passed away.

Speaker 1 Professor Orlavo de Cavalo. I don't know if you never listened about him.
He was usually to live in Virginia. Several books, very smart.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 he is the one who on the philosophy side was giving the arguments and also forming new leaders to be on key positions in Brazil to sustain this right, not right-wing movement, but this movement in favor of the morals, in favor of the honesty and what

Speaker 1 we can call it conservative. Yes, yes, you can call him as a conservative.
So it was Olavo de Carvalho on the philosophy side and my father on the political sides converging

Speaker 1 to the same target, if I can say that. So

Speaker 1 the willing of, as I can see, of Aléche de Jimorais is to end with this movement leaded by my father. Right, right.

Speaker 1 Now, so is that, do you think that that's partly an attack on the social media structures that your family used so effectively in your movement to power?

Speaker 1 Is it a reaction by

Speaker 1 the legacy establishment against the emergence of

Speaker 1 social media dominance? Sure, yes, because

Speaker 1 if you do not have social media anymore,

Speaker 1 the monopoly of information will go back to the next court. Well, and of course, all the legacy media want that.

Speaker 1 Well, it's not surprising that the powers that be on the establishment side, so to speak, even for reasons of mere self-preservation, regard Musk as a threat because he is a threat.

Speaker 1 I mean, his stated goal for X is to make it the predominant source of information in the world, right? I mean, he'd like to supplant YouTube.

Speaker 1 And if YouTube continues to muck about the way they have been, they're so full of snivelly tricks that it's just beyond belief.

Speaker 1 I mean, they shadow banned the Musk or the Rogan Trump discussion this week because they play around with the search algorithms. They did that to me.
Yes.

Speaker 1 And they're so sneaky about it. For example, they blocked, so there's an autofill that people use to find new videos.
And for a long time, they blocked the autofill on the name Peterson.

Speaker 1 And we only, it took us like six months to figure that out because my viewership was declining. We couldn't figure out why.
It's like, oh, they mucked about with the autofill.

Speaker 1 Isn't that unbelievably devious? You know, and so, anyways, Musk obviously wants to make X into, well, a one-stop media platform. And he's pretty blunt and blatant in his ambitions.
And it's working.

Speaker 1 I mean, X is the number one news center in the world now.

Speaker 1 And it's just getting going because X doesn't do a great job yet of video sharing and that sort of thing. It's not got everything YouTube has yet.

Speaker 1 But if I had to bet on a company and it was Google versus Musk, I'd bet on Musk, like, no, hands down, definitely, because Google's tangled themselves up in this corporate idiocracy.

Speaker 1 And it's been that way for about eight years. So but you see you you are right sorry professor

Speaker 1 you are right like uh but

Speaker 1 shadow ban would not be a problem if you have other companies on social media alternative companies the problem is in brazil rumble is not in brazil uh-huh see

Speaker 1 they they left brazil after uh do not accomplish if some of the orders of a lacio degenerais they said i'm out oh yeah i cannot survive in a country where they do not have free speech because free speech is a value that we care here in rumble so they left left the country just like x left a little bit after rumble

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 youtube is the way that you were talking shadow ban doing this doing that reducing the voice of the conservatives and sometimes you watch a trump video and then they suggested of the next video is a video of hillary clinton talking some things yeah and uh

Speaker 1 But if you have free,

Speaker 1 if you have the freedom to have a new social media, it would be okay.

Speaker 1 Then I have to talk again. Remember when Trump was kicked out from Twitter in January of 2021?

Speaker 1 I don't know if it happened here, it also happened in North America, but in Brazil, people start to run to two other platforms, Parlor and Getter.

Speaker 1 Getter, the CEO of Getter is Mr. Jason Miller.
who is together with Trump taking care of the market of his campaign, helping Trump in his campaign.

Speaker 1 Jason Miller in 2021 went to Brazil Brazil to do a speech in the CPAC Brazil. I do organize the CPAC in Brazil.
It's the largest gathering of the conservatives all around the world.

Speaker 1 We have the Brazilian version.

Speaker 1 After do his speech, he went back to the airport. And guess what? Alecion de Moraes ordered the federal police to go there and detain Jason Miller.

Speaker 1 Jason Miller, an American citizen, stayed almost four hours in a Brazilian airport because the federal police officers wanted him to sign some papers

Speaker 1 written in Portuguese. He said, I don't know Portuguese, what is written there? They called someone from the street to do the translation.
And Jason Miller said, Am I under investigation?

Speaker 1 Am I at testimony? What is going on here?

Speaker 1 So after some time, a lawyer came helped Jason Miller. He didn't sign nothing, but it was embarrassing this situation.
So Alexander Jimorais, he has a personal fight

Speaker 1 against Elon Musk and against Jason Miller, two people that are pretty close of Trump. So maybe Alexandria de Morais is having a conflict with really big guys.

Speaker 1 Because when you affect a billionaire like Elon Musk, some other billionaires are going to talk about it and have an idea that Alexandria de Morais is not fighting to preserve democracy, but truly doing the opposite of that, killing democracy.

Speaker 1 Because

Speaker 1 to preserve our constitution, you need to violate the constitution, you're not preserving any constitution anymore. And I think this is getting clear and clear to all of the rest of the world.

Speaker 1 So I expect here, Professor, in the great audience that you have in your podcast, to prevent our friends from Europe, Latin America, North America to do not copy the model of Brazilian censorship.

Speaker 1 Well, we're going to see that play out over the next couple of years. That's for sure.
Yeah, and it's a tight, it's a tight struggle. I mean,

Speaker 1 the new, this new Canadian legislation, Bill C-63, it's the most,

Speaker 1 it's so,

Speaker 1 it's so devious because the beginning of the legislation and the end are all about protecting children from sexual exploitation online. Right.
And so

Speaker 1 long.

Speaker 1 Well, who?

Speaker 1 You're opposed to stopping children from being exploited online? You oppose Bill C-63? It's like, yeah, because I actually read it and I saw exactly what you did.

Speaker 1 It's like, oh, you're lovely moralizing at the beginning and all your lovely moralizing at the end and this unbelievable totalitarian proclivity in the middle. It's just beyond comprehension.
And so

Speaker 1 online harms Bill.

Speaker 1 And you can see like it's got to be something, because it's happening everywhere, it's got to be something like the reaction of the legacy communication systems against the new technologies.

Speaker 1 It's something, and it's no wonder, right? Because YouTube,

Speaker 1 free video,

Speaker 1 universally distributable and permanent, is a technological revolution larger than the Gutenberg printing press, I think.

Speaker 1 Because

Speaker 1 the Gutenberg printing press obviously spread literacy everywhere, that and the Protestants spread literacy everywhere. But even with that,

Speaker 1 reading was still a minority occupation. Right? I think 2% of people buy hardcover books, right? And most hardcover books that are bought, I don't think, are read.

Speaker 1 And so people read, but a minority of people read most of the books, but way more people can listen. Like it's got to be.
I know with my books, at least half of them now are audio, right?

Speaker 1 And that's the case across the book market in general.

Speaker 1 I prefer to listen than reads. Well, many people do.
Many. There's a much more practical.
Yeah. Well, one of the advantages is everyone can listen.

Speaker 1 So that's a big advantage, you know, because you have to be a highly skilled and literate person to really enjoy reading.

Speaker 1 And, you know, maybe that's 30% of the population, but it's not much more than that, I wouldn't say. And but listening, man, everybody can do that.
And you can do it when you're doing other things.

Speaker 1 And so

Speaker 1 it's made. It's absolutely revolutionary.
I knew YouTube was revolutionary back when it first came out. I thought

Speaker 1 permanent, universally accessible video. Oh,

Speaker 1 oh, this changes, this changes absolutely everything. And that's that's what's playing out, right?

Speaker 1 It is, we have this shifting landscape now where the inter the information intermediaries are now obsolete. Well, it's no wonder they're annoyed by that.

Speaker 1 All the legacy journalists, like we don't need you. In fact, you're in the way.
All the legacy broadcasters, it's like broadcasting technology is 20 years out of date.

Speaker 1 You know, and Musk recently called for the Americans to

Speaker 1 take broadcast so the like CBS and NBC own

Speaker 1 have rights to the electromagnetic spectrum that they use to broadcast their channels.

Speaker 1 Well, Musk proposed two weeks ago that that just be taken from them because they have, they're not, they have an obligation, a legal obligation.

Speaker 1 to tell both sides of the story, which they certainly aren't doing. And they don't own that portion of the electromagnetic spectrum.

Speaker 1 And so he thinks it should just be turned over to the tech companies who would make much more efficient use of it. And the legacy media companies can be cable like everyone else.

Speaker 1 And that's going to happen because there's no reason for them to have that monopoly anymore. So it's not surprising that there's this immense reaction.

Speaker 1 Like it's broader than the mere antipathy of the left-wing to your family. And that's partly why it's happening everywhere, right?

Speaker 1 Because it's Brazil, it's the same story in Canada, it's the same story in the U.S., the same thing is playing out in Europe and in Australia.

Speaker 1 So you know that there's something really fundamental going on and part of it is definitely this technological shift.

Speaker 1 And then the other thing that's strange about that too, and this is where your family is more integrally involved, is that you guys were early adopters of the new media and that was revolutionary, right?

Speaker 1 And so there's two reasons to be terrified of it, right? Not only

Speaker 1 is the legacy media are the legacy media purveyors dead and that whole system of influence archaic, But it's also empowering a whole new crop of political types who are speaking directly to the people.

Speaker 1 Yeah, well, God only knows what that's going to do. I mean, Trump's team figured that out in this election.

Speaker 1 Trump has been on, I think this is because of the influence of his son, Baron, who from my understanding knows, because he's young enough, he knows the new media landscape. And so I...

Speaker 1 I have reason to believe that he's been recommending the podcast hosts that Trump has appeared on, you know, people like Theo Vaughan, for example, and who wouldn't be an obvious.

Speaker 1 Vaughn's a great interviewer and I like him and he's super smart. But it's quite surprising that Trump went on Theo Vaughn's show and he did and Rogan as well.
And that was

Speaker 1 another demonstration that Legacy Media. I think Rogan was almost 50 million people.
Yeah. Despite the shadow ban.
Yeah. Right.
Right. I saw it today.
Kamala Harris used, Camela.

Speaker 1 There's some way you're supposed to say that if you're like an acceptable person, but I'm in Northern Albertan and we can't talk. So

Speaker 1 her,

Speaker 1 she did a fairly popular podcast and it's got 745,000 views compared to 50 million.

Speaker 1 And I think it's also because the people who are following Trump don't follow the legacy media, whereas the people who are supporting Harris do follow the legacy media.

Speaker 1 So of course Trump's views are going to stack up because all of those people, all the Republicans in the United States, virtually, all of them distrust the legacy media.

Speaker 1 And so they're on the cutting edge in that regard. I think it's for the first time in history here in the U.S., people trust more in the Congress than the mainstream media.

Speaker 1 And you know if things are bad that that happens.

Speaker 1 I don't know the source. I have a friend, he's a journalist here, and he told me, I do not remember the source, but he said, this is fantastic.

Speaker 1 In Brazil, in Brazil, we have a lot of people that still believes and follow

Speaker 1 our legacy media over there. But the numbers of this credibility is going down.
Yeah, yeah. Well, and the same thing is happening in Europe.
The legacy media is still comparatively dominant in the UK,

Speaker 1 less in the UK than in Europe, still very dominant in Europe. But that's going to change because it has to.

Speaker 1 You can't compete with free, right? There's just no way that the broadcast networks can survive because their economic model has been demolished. And they don't know how to do it.
No.

Speaker 1 They're using to control the narrative and they don't know how to do it. No, I know.
It's so funny. So CBC is the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.
They have a YouTube channel.

Speaker 1 Well, you can't post comments. So it's like, that's a no-no, guys.
The YouTube ecosystem demands that people post comments. So you've already made a colossal error in your arrogance.

Speaker 1 I looked recently. CBC posts the programming that it broadcasts also on YouTube.
The last 20 posts that they made

Speaker 1 each got less than 100 views.

Speaker 1 100 views. $1.4 billion in government subsidy a year and another $600 million in advertising.
$2 billion a year for posts on YouTube that are getting less than 100 views.

Speaker 1 That means that even all the actors didn't watch it. You have to fire all the crew.
All the team. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's Polyev's plan. He said

Speaker 1 he's going to... stop the government subsidy of media in Canada.
God, I hope he does it because it's really quite preposterous. Okay, we should talk about the future.

Speaker 1 So tell me about your future and about your father's future, like, and

Speaker 1 where the political landscape is headed in Brazil and also what's going to happen with the Supreme Court. And like,

Speaker 1 are the Supreme Court decisions popular in Brazil? No.

Speaker 1 Okay. But who could stop the Supreme Court? It's the Senate.

Speaker 1 But the chairman of the Senate, he already said, Rodrigo Pacheco, that he will not start an impeachment proceedment against any of the justices of the Supreme Court.

Speaker 1 So the justice of the Supreme Court, they are really comfortable because despite this constitutional tool that

Speaker 1 we could start impeachment proceedment against one of the justices, you don't have what to do. That's why we arranged the United States and are providing information for U.S.

Speaker 1 authorities trying to help us

Speaker 1 down there in Brazil, also mainly because what is happening in Brazil with the support of Ludo da Silva, the president, is an attack not only against Elon Musk, but against American companies and not only Starlink and Index, but also against the Constitution of the United States, the First Amendment.

Speaker 1 And thanks to God, we are having a good interaction, a good relationship, not only with Gene Jordan, with Mario Vida Salazar, Chris Smith, Richard McCormick, and some other players, Mike Lee, Marco Rubio, Rick Scott.

Speaker 1 And for the first time in history, I think we are very well connected with the American politicians. How'd that happen?

Speaker 1 I have to tell you that I come here very often to the United States, opening these doors. It's not only because of me, okay, you have more people involved, but I hard work in that.

Speaker 1 I do not care, get a plane, fly economy class, come here to have one meeting and come back to Brazil. I did that several times.
And that's how we know one and another.

Speaker 1 And now they are very polite, very smart. They know the situation of Brazil and they are taking some actions here.
We had a hearing in the U.S. Congress in the Human Rights Committee with Chris Smith,

Speaker 1 inviting the

Speaker 1 owner of Robo, Mr. Pavlovsky, with Paulo Figueredo, to debate the censorship in Brazil, trying to prevent U.S.
and trying to help Brazilians that are victim

Speaker 1 of the censorship.

Speaker 1 So in the future, I think we can do much more pressure coming from the international community, not only US, because I also talked about how great is the president of Argentina, Javier Mele,

Speaker 1 who is a libertarian. And we can help Brazil

Speaker 1 in this way, because with the globalization, everybody's connected.

Speaker 1 It's not only about Brazil.

Speaker 1 Well, as you can tell, because the political issues are the same regardless of the country.

Speaker 1 The same thing is happening everywhere. And

Speaker 1 it is certainly in no small part because we're so hyper-connected. And so, and that also means that warfare is going to change dramatically.

Speaker 1 And what's happening in Brazil, this dispute between the Supreme Court official and Musk,

Speaker 1 that is a reflection of a new kind of information warfare. Right.
And it's definitely... the First Amendment versus everything else in a very deep way.
Right. Okay.
So you fostered relationships

Speaker 1 in the U.S.

Speaker 1 And so that's so interesting because the case that you're making is that you can understand why the Senate in Brazil would be loath to begin impeachment proceedings against a Supreme Court justice.

Speaker 1 Because

Speaker 1 when one branch of the government starts to go to war against another branch, there's real trouble there. So I can imagine why they're stepping carefully.
I'm not justifying it.

Speaker 1 I just would say that that is something that you want to do very, very carefully. But it's very interesting that

Speaker 1 the pressure is actually being mounted more effectively through the U.S. and internationally than within Brazil itself.

Speaker 1 What about the typical Brazilian?

Speaker 1 I mean, all the people that were supporting your father, for example,

Speaker 1 what's happening with them now? And that'll be our segue, I guess, into discussion of what you think is going to happen in the future in Brazil.

Speaker 1 When's the next election? In 2026. 26.

Speaker 1 We had election this year, but it's a municipal election, where we did great. Like the number of mayors and city councils that we have,

Speaker 1 like almost half of Brazil in the capital of the states, the most voted city council is from my party, from our party. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 And that's a big deal to have control, to have influence at the local level. Yes, yeah, that's a big deal.
We increased a lot. It was great this election for Brazil.

Speaker 1 My father, he went for more than 140 cities.

Speaker 1 And on the other path, Lula da Silva almost didn't go to be part of this election. He was in Mexico, he was traveling, and not really campaign for people from his party.

Speaker 1 And even the mayors, the candidate of the Liberals' party, some of them, they didn't want Lula da Silva at the same stage of them, which means that his credibility is going low, right, right, down.

Speaker 1 Right, right. So it was great to us.
We will have elections on 2026. Nowadays, my father cannot run because the electoral court, with Mr.

Speaker 1 Alexander Jimorais on the head, decided that he had a meeting with ambassadors when he was president and he criticized the electoral process of Brazil.

Speaker 1 This was anti-democratic so they said that my father is convicted 80 years without cannot run with no political rights.

Speaker 1 So for 80 years my father cannot run.

Speaker 1 How can we have the expectation in the 2026 he can go back and run again?

Speaker 1 Because this electoral court is made by seven judges, three coming from the Supreme Court.

Speaker 1 And as I told you, Alecion de Moraes was on the head. In 2026, Alecion de Moraes, he will not be in the electoral court anymore.
Who will be the chairman of the next election?

Speaker 1 It will be Castio Nuniz, who is a justice from the Supreme Court appointed by my father.

Speaker 1 And the vice chair of the electoral court in 2026 will be Andre Mendonza, who is other justice of the Supreme Court appointed by my father.

Speaker 1 So we have an an expectation, not that they are going to work in favor of my father, but you have a way more balanced court to analyze and judge everything.

Speaker 1 And they can have the opportunity to really work for more transparency and more integrity election.

Speaker 1 Here

Speaker 1 you think there is, you're, I believe you're implying that there is some possibility that your father will be in a position to run again. You're not certain of that, but you think it's a possibility.

Speaker 1 I think so. Lula was in jail two years before the election.

Speaker 1 Supreme Court let him go free. So,

Speaker 1 you know, Lula, they annulled all of his conviction. He was convicted for laundering money and corruption.
They said, oh, no, no, no, Lula would never be sued in the city of Curitiba.

Speaker 1 He would be sued in São Paulo or Brasilia. That's why they cancel all the

Speaker 1 convictions,

Speaker 1 the condemnation that he had.

Speaker 1 So he got it back again. Now he's clean again, and that's how he was able to run on 2022.

Speaker 1 If it happened with a convicted fellow, convicted criminal, why cannot happen with my father who is guilty because he had a meeting with ambassadors? Are you afraid for your father and for yourself?

Speaker 1 We think that he can go to jail in this kind of a Timos Ferrin scenario.

Speaker 1 But about more intense threats, because he was already, as you pointed out, just about assassinated. So what, like, what...

Speaker 1 He doesn't care to be assassinated.

Speaker 1 Think with our enemy's head. If you send him to jail, they will attract even more attention of the international community.

Speaker 1 My father, he probably

Speaker 1 will write a book. He'll have kind of communication outside of the jail, maybe between his lawyers, I don't know.

Speaker 1 But everybody always, like in a Rocky Bob movie, everybody cheers for the one who is receiving all of these unfair convictions you know we always stay on the on the side of the victim

Speaker 1 if you kill my father he's going to become a martyr and for decades he is going to be reminded right right as someone that's like fight for free speech and freedom of the people you know right it's a problem for the left to do that and to be very honest i guess i guess

Speaker 1 the establishment of brazil they are waiting for the U.S. election.
Uh-huh.

Speaker 1 Because

Speaker 1 to see which side the bread is buttered on. Yes, because, for example, when you have a Supreme Court powerful like that, they are backed by businessmen, billionaires, millionaires.

Speaker 1 People who for sure have relationship with the United States. They have houses here, they have an accountant in Delaware, whatever.
Right, right, right. They don't want to have problems with the U.S.

Speaker 1 administration. So all of that is on the table.
I don't think to be very honest, the chances that my father could go to jail, it was way higher in the past than is nowadays. This is my feeling.

Speaker 1 Because in Brazil, you don't need a reason to go to the jail. You have a congressman like me that is in jail.
His name is Daniel Silveda. And I say his name to you.

Speaker 1 Make sure that you can Google it and do your research about who is the guy. He's in the jail because he got his cell phone and said bad words to the Supreme Court.

Speaker 1 In our constitution, a senator or a congressman like me, we can say whatever we want, we will never be sued in a court because our opinions.

Speaker 1 But this guy is in jail, convicted nine years, almost, nine years in jail because he made a video that by the through the eyes of the Supreme Court, it was considered aggression against the democracy.

Speaker 1 At that time that this guy was convicted, Jerry Bolsonaro was the president and gave it to him the presidential pardon.

Speaker 1 He got out of jail.

Speaker 1 Then my father didn't get re-elected. And the Supreme Court analyzed the pardon of the president Bolsonaro and canceled that.

Speaker 1 They handled the first time in the whole history of Brazil a presidential pardon. And the guy is back now in the prison.
That's why I'm telling you, I have to take care about my words.

Speaker 1 Because I don't know, maybe this crazy, this careful madness. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 So let's see, let's see, let's see what happens.

Speaker 1 But we have a hope that with the new configuration of the electoral court, we can overturn the ineligibility of my father. And his motto, his political capital is huge.

Speaker 1 If you look to the social media, everywhere he goes, even left-wing cities, it's full of people following him. Full, full.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 he cannot go to the streets. When is the election in 2026? In October.
October 2026.

Speaker 1 Okay, well, look, I think we should wrap it up there. That's a good place to end.

Speaker 1 I think what we'll do on the Daily Wire side, for everybody who's watching and listening, we haven't talked about the broader context of South America.

Speaker 1 I want to talk to you about what's going on in El Salvador. I know that's Central America, but we'll consider that close enough for the purposes of this argument, and also about Argentina.

Speaker 1 And so I'd like you to enlighten us more

Speaker 1 profoundly about, yeah, the war, the culture war in Central and South America in general. And, well, I'd like to talk about Millai.
And

Speaker 1 I read his name all the time. Bukele.
Bukele. Nayibu Bukele.
Good, good, got it, got it. Yeah.
So that's what we'll do on the Daily Wire side.

Speaker 1 If all of you who are watching or some of you who are watching and listening want to join us there, we'll continue this discussion.

Speaker 1 And that'll, what, update your knowledge with regards to your neighbors, likely neighbors to the south i know there's people in europe watching as well so but neighbor bukele is great yeah i've been there twice last year in el salvador one invacation should serve because they have great waves in el salvador and the other visiting the the the jails yeah even the famous one that he built it it has capacity for 40 000 people yeah in that jail they call is a center against terrorism yeah And what Bukele basically did is

Speaker 1 he's jailing the criminals and to not let them get outside. So he already arrested more than 70,000 criminals and he reduced

Speaker 1 to have an idea El Salvador in 2016 the murders rate it was 102 murders for each group of 100,000 people. Right.
102 is the most violent country in the world in the year 2016.

Speaker 1 Now from 2002 they are around two.

Speaker 1 Same level of Canada or some of the European countries. And this is how he did that.

Speaker 1 Basically,

Speaker 1 let's do that on the Daily Wire side.

Speaker 1 We'll continue with that. Yeah, so that's a good teaser.
So thank you very much. Thank you, Professor.
Thank you for coming here.

Speaker 1 Much appreciated. It's very good to bring these issues regarding Brazil to broader public knowledge,

Speaker 1 especially given the there's all sorts of reasons, but I guess the most compelling at the moment is the connection with Elon Musk and with free speech in general.

Speaker 1 And so, yeah, so thank you very much for that. And thank you to everybody who's watching and listening and supporting this podcast and to the film crew here in Scottsdale for making this possible.