1259: Mad Mother's Lies Sever Tenuous Family Ties | Feedback Friday

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Speaker 1 Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger.

Speaker 1 As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the Petri Dish cultivating these microbes of drama, conflict, and life conundra, Gabriel Mizrahi.

Speaker 2 Accurate. I'm getting over a cold over here.
That's why I sound like this today.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I could have seen that coming. Two weeks of non-stop travel, not sleeping, a lot of subways.
You probably touched a lot of icky handles lately.

Speaker 2 I japanned too close to the sun, and now I'm paying the price. That's right.

Speaker 1 Gaby, Icarus.

Speaker 2 Yeah, the way this stuffy nose is giving you the ick. Is that what you're talking about?

Speaker 1 Exactly. Days like this, and I'm glad we're remote and not stuck in a tiny studio, just breathing that air.
And I get enough pestilence from my own children. Thank you.

Speaker 1 Sorry, you're sick, dude, though.

Speaker 1 I haven't gotten sick yet, and I'm going to Patagonia tomorrow, so I'm just waiting for everyone to show up and be like, I'm just getting over a cold

Speaker 1 right in my face.

Speaker 2 I'm predicting a post-Patagonia plague.

Speaker 1 I hope it's post, man, and not during. And it's like, thanks for the sinus infection that you all brought for me on this trip.

Speaker 1 Anyway, on the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Speaker 1 Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks.

Speaker 1 former cult members, Hollywood filmmakers, astronauts, national security advisors. This week, we had the legendary Ryan Holliday, author of the new book, Wisdom Takes Work, Learn, Apply, Repeat.

Speaker 1 We talked about the virtue of wisdom. We talk ancient philosophy with modern application.
He's a regular guest here on the show, always a good one.

Speaker 1 We also did a skeptical Sunday last Sunday on Kratom, which is a weird, not new, but weird drug you can buy at gas stations, basically.

Speaker 1 On Fridays, though, we take listener letters, offer advice, and generally sip your scalding tea through the widest of cups.

Speaker 1 Gabe, since you're under the weather and seem to be chained to your desk all week, I assume you don't have too many stories for me today.

Speaker 2 I mean, I could tell you my latest meditations about various 7-Elevens around town, but yeah, no, no bangers this week, unfortunately.

Speaker 1 I mean, an ode to pre-packaged ramen on an autumn's day, a sonnet in three parts.

Speaker 2 Literally the stuff of poetry.

Speaker 1 Yeah, since you're in Japan, you should start writing haiku about your konbini adventures.

Speaker 2 Dude, I stayed at that monastery last week. I am this close to writing the sign-offs in 5-7-5.

Speaker 1 Can't do it. That's actually not a bad idea.
No, they'd be short, finally. I'm behind it.
I'm here for it.

Speaker 2 I do have to tell you, though, I'm staying in the funniest hotel. It's one of those very bare-bones hotels where there's barely any staff.

Speaker 2 You check in on your phone or somebody checks you in on a device in the lobby remotely, which is what I did. There's no housekeeping.
Someone just, you know, delivers you tells every day, checks in.

Speaker 2 If you need a robe or a toothbrush or tissues or whatever, you grab them from the lobby. There's a big dispenser.
Otherwise, you're on your own. So weird.

Speaker 1 I know those places and they freak me out. They're kind of vaguely dystopian.
And I just feel like I'm in cyberpunk 2037 or whatever that movie is and it's just I can't hang.

Speaker 2 Exactly. Marriott Bonvoy Blade Runner edition.

Speaker 1 Yes, it's like cyberpunk with free q-tips.

Speaker 2 I might be one of five or seven people staying in this hotel in this huge building and there's a lounge on the second floor that's set up to be a breakfast bar situation.

Speaker 2 There are hot plates and everything, but there's nothing there.

Speaker 2 It's just a bunch of empty tables and a single water dispenser at the other end of the room that fills your bottle with like semi-cold water, but at a certain point it just taps out and you have to wait 10 or 15 minutes for it to refill.

Speaker 2 And that's it.

Speaker 1 That's ridiculous. So it's like, we were going to have food here, but then we kind of went, nah, we're not going to put any food or employees or anything in this place.
It's kind of spooky.

Speaker 1 I'm picturing, you remember Home Alone, the coal furnace in the basement of Kevin McEll?

Speaker 1 The house where he's afraid of the furnace.

Speaker 2 That is hilarious.

Speaker 1 That's what I'm picturing, but it's a water dispenser that doesn't work.

Speaker 2 Weirdly accurate.

Speaker 2 I kind of feel like I'm in the hotel in the shining a little bit, except the signs are in Japanese and the creepy twins you meet in the hall are another digital nomad from Australia and a Sri Lankan receptionist who's hanging on to your Amazon package at the front desk.

Speaker 1 So at least they have a receptionist. Anyway, I guess that makes you Jack Nicholson.

Speaker 2 That's disturbing, but that is exactly what it means. Yeah, all do's and no play makes Gabe a dullboy.
Yeah, well

Speaker 1 we all know that's not true. The Feedback Friday inbox, that might even be the only thing keeping you stimulated this week.

Speaker 2 Who needs to enjoy one of the most beautiful countries on earth when you have Wi-Fi and an IV drip of top-shelf drama?

Speaker 1 As long as you take an axe to our listeners' problems and not to the door of the Kiwi influencer's bathroom. Speaking of which,

Speaker 2 do Ziari Mascam?

Speaker 1 Life drama. Oishi desu.
Jack, Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag?

Speaker 2 Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I was raised by my mom, who struggled with serious mental health issues.

Speaker 2 She was manipulative and controlled most parts of my life and would even message my friends pretending to be me. It completely shattered my trust and made me pull away from everyone.

Speaker 2 Eventually, I cut off all my friends because I couldn't handle the confusion and shame that came with it.

Speaker 1 Oh my God, that's awful.

Speaker 2 What a mother to have.

Speaker 1 Gabe, this reminds me of that documentary on Netflix, the one about the girls who were harassed by...

Speaker 1 It was basically they were harassed by an unknown number, the guys and girls, for a year and a half.

Speaker 2 It's called Unknown Number.

Speaker 1 Yes, yeah. And they reported it to the FBI.
And then, I mean, sorry to spoil it, but it turned out to be her mom. That's so crazy.

Speaker 2 I have not seen this yet.

Speaker 1 It's literally insane. I watched it in New York, and it's so disturbing to do this kind of thing to your own child to state the obvious.
And it was bad harassment. This wasn't like, you're ugly.

Speaker 1 It was like, kill yourself. You're going to die alone.
I'm going to do all these things to your boyfriend because he likes me more. And it's your mom, dude.

Speaker 2 Horrible.

Speaker 1 Anyway, to state the obvious, you have to be deeply unwell mentally. It's just really gross, really sad.

Speaker 2 I ran away when I was 21 and felt totally unprepared for the real world. I'm 29 now and I still feel lost.
I don't have friends or any family around me.

Speaker 1 Man, that's hard. By the way, do we know if this is a man or a woman? It's a man.
Got it. I wonder if his mom knows what a number she did on him.

Speaker 2 Not long ago, I found out my mom had also lied to me about my dad. She told me he was abusive and didn't care about me and a bunch of other horrible things.

Speaker 2 But I found his Facebook profile and learned that wasn't true.

Speaker 1 Oof, fascinating. So Gabe, I'm guessing he means he talked to his dad and the dad was like, yeah, none of that ever happened.
Where's the the documentation? Yeah, presumably.

Speaker 1 Yeah, your mom scared me away by threatening me or whatever. Yeah, it's ugh.
So if that's what happened, and if that guy can be trusted, that's really tragic.

Speaker 1 You know, I'm livid at this woman, obviously. She's off a rocker.
Dad probably knew that and had to leave, which it's not cool to leave your child, but who knows the circumstances?

Speaker 1 Maybe he kind of had to. Maybe he couldn't have a real relationship with his son because of his mother.

Speaker 1 She made up a story accusing him of a bunch of awful things and then told her son a totally different story. I mean, it's just trauma on top of trauma.

Speaker 2 We've reconnected a little, though he lives in another province, so it's been hard to build much of a relationship. I also helped my younger sister escape from my mom's control.

Speaker 2 It was the right thing to do, but it ended up being really hard on her and my mom, mentally. My sister doesn't talk to me anymore.

Speaker 2 The last time we spoke, she said that talking to me reminds her of our family. I completely understand, but...
It still hurts.

Speaker 2 I was the only one in our immediate family she talked to since going to live with her dad.

Speaker 1 This family, dude, this is so sad. So does the sister have a different father, sounds like?

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's the sense that I'm getting.

Speaker 1 There's a lot of angles.

Speaker 2 Because he said her dad, right? So that must be a different father. Yeah.
Even after everything, I still want to have some kind of relationship with my mom.

Speaker 2 She's disappeared and won't tell me where she is, but she's still my mom. And part of me can't let that go.
She left just before Christmas last year.

Speaker 2 I also want to find a way to reconnect with my sister someday or at least make peace with how things are.

Speaker 2 Is it even possible or healthy to have any kind of relationship with a parent who caused so much pain, but clearly has mental health struggles?

Speaker 2 How might I start rebuilding trust and communication with my sister? How do I find confidence again, meeting people, making friends, and learning to live a normal life after growing up like this?

Speaker 2 Signed reconnecting with my progenitor after this emotional divestiture, which required a significant expenditure and sent her into another hemisphere. Bruh.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 This is a rough one. There's something so vulnerable and like earnest about this guy, just the way he laid it all out.

Speaker 2 Man, the longing to have a mother figure in one's life is so profound and it's so moving to hear about it.

Speaker 1 Everyone needs it, man. Everyone deserves it.

Speaker 2 But not possible for anyone, sadly, with some of their biological parents, anyway.

Speaker 1 Sadly, no. I mean, his mom is, well, I don't even know what this woman is.
I mean, I'm aggressively flipping through the DSM. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Opens to random page endpoints.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's got to be some kind of personality disorder, right?

Speaker 2 I mean, I feel like the dudes crews just docked at a port called Cluster B.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think so. And I have no interest in getting off and seeing the sites here.
No.

Speaker 2 Let's just stay in our cabin, shall we? Read a book. That's right.
Stretch our legs at the next port.

Speaker 1 That's right. This woman, she's out of her mind, man.
That's my professional opinion as a man who bought a USB microphone a few years ago.

Speaker 2 Dr. Harbinger just scribbled batshit on a prescription pad and slid it across the table.

Speaker 1 That's right. Take two of these and call me in the morning.
Exactly. But seriously, I'm so sorry that this is your mom.
Truly, what she's done to you, it's unforgivable.

Speaker 1 Obviously, she has some serious issues. So maybe she can't help it in some sense or whatever, but none of this is okay.
And I'm just, I'm so sorry.

Speaker 1 I'm so angry that she left a mark on you, made you pull away from people, left you isolated, unsure of yourself. My heart really goes out to you, man.

Speaker 1 So obviously, this is not a safe parent to be close with. She's not even stable or caring enough to be reachable by her kids.
She's disappeared, which is just bizarre behavior.

Speaker 1 I think it's safe to say that that itself speaks volumes about her current mental state.

Speaker 2 It does, but it's still hurtful, man.

Speaker 1 Yeah, of course. Of course, it's got to feel like insult on top of injury, abandonment on top of abandonment.
Even at 29 years old, it's heartbreaking.

Speaker 1 But I also understand the desire to reconnect and have some kind of relationship. You want a mother and your mother is not a good mother.

Speaker 1 And I just want to pause here and acknowledge that that is really painful. There's no easy solution to that pain.
It just sucks. This might hurt to some degree for the rest of your life.

Speaker 1 So my honest answer is, no, I don't think it's possible or even entirely healthy to have a real relationship with a parent who caused this much pain, who clearly has mental health struggles, as long as she isn't doing anything meaningful to address them or she isn't open to talking to you about all this in a new way.

Speaker 2 Right, which she is clearly not and I'm guessing will never be able to do.

Speaker 1 Dude, you can't even find her.

Speaker 1 This is literally not possible right now because she's unreachable, which is so weird. Look, there might be some limited relationship with her that's possible.

Speaker 1 A very superficial relationship where you know where she is or if she's alive or you talk about basic stuff here and there. Maybe.
A highly boundaried relationship where she can't hurt you again.

Speaker 1 But that's not a real full relationship. It's not a super deep one.

Speaker 1 And I'm afraid that given everything that's gone down, this is going to be a painful and potentially dangerous relationship for the rest of your life, which again is just very tragic.

Speaker 1 Now, about your younger sister, this is also a really sad subplot. You helped her escape, but that didn't solve all her problems.

Speaker 1 And now you're kind of paying the price by having to receive her anger, her sadness, having to deal with the distance. This is another reason I really feel for you.

Speaker 1 I'm guessing you did the right thing in helping her get away from your mom. We don't know what their relationship was like, but I can only imagine.
And you said that she controlled your sister too.

Speaker 1 And so now this is kind of blown up in your face. And all I can say there is, and this is also really hard, but it's important.
You and your sister, yes, you had the same mom.

Speaker 1 You probably dealt with similar challenges, but you're two different people, maybe with different personalities. And you guys are each on your own journey.

Speaker 1 And for whatever reason, your sister needs to distance herself from you right now. I don't know if that's fair or unfair.
I don't know if that's necessary or unnecessary. Maybe it's not.

Speaker 1 But that's what she's saying she needs right now. And clearly, there's something about having contact with you that's very painful for her.
It reminds her of your family, which she said that.

Speaker 1 I know you get that. She has to go through her own process around your mom and around her relationship with you.
So I think a big part of your job is right now, just letting her do that.

Speaker 2 Letting her do that and still letting her know that you love her and you're available to talk for sure.

Speaker 1 Yeah, man, a brief message every so often. I mean, you probably have her phone number, right? Just text her or something, or you could call.

Speaker 1 You could send a voice note if you want to get that in-between space. Say, I love you.
I hope you're doing okay. I respect the distance you feel you need.
I'm here whenever you're ready.

Speaker 1 That's really all you can can do. I wouldn't pressure her and like, call me back, please.
I, what did I do wrong? Like, don't stress her out like that right now.

Speaker 2 Yeah, a message like that is nice. I'm sure it would mean a lot to her.

Speaker 1 Your job right now really is just to keep the door open. My hope is that she doesn't feel this way forever.
My hope is that you guys find your way back to each other.

Speaker 1 She just has to be ready to do that. And that's the only way I can see right now to rebuild trust and communication with her.

Speaker 2 I also just want to acknowledge we don't exactly know what went down between them.

Speaker 2 I do find it a little curious that the sister who was presumably subject to the same insanity from the mom is now turning on him or distancing herself. What is that about?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I had the same question. Maybe, but you know, maybe it's like anyone who reminds her of this very painful, crazy family is dangerous for her right now.

Speaker 1 Her mental state is too fragile, say, but you're right. If he really did a good thing, as he put it, it was the right thing to do.
Why are things playing out this way? Maybe there's more to the story.

Speaker 1 I kind of feel like there's more to the story, but also maybe she's just like, wow, that was a lot of crazy.

Speaker 1 I need to be with my dad and the other siblings and like pretend to live a normal life and forget about all this just to get some mental space. And then she'll be like, but I missed my brother.

Speaker 1 He was nice and he's the one who helped me. And then who knows, dude, you get a call out of the blue.
I'm kind of hoping that's how it shakes out.

Speaker 2 So we cannot know what happened.

Speaker 2 I just want to acknowledge that this could have been the right thing to do in some sense, but he might have gone about it in a way that, I don't know, created additional pain for her or was a little heavy-handed or inadvertently controlling himself.

Speaker 2 And that's why she isn't talking to him. I am speculating so wildly.

Speaker 2 I just want to acknowledge that there might, I think he should be curious about what she might be going through beyond just, I can't be near you because it reminds me of everything.

Speaker 2 And maybe that's another way into rebuilding trust with her for him to say, look, if there's anything I did along the way to make our relationship harder, I'm happy to hear that.

Speaker 2 And I'm eager to understand and make things right.

Speaker 1 I like that. Cause if that's what's going on here, I'm sure she'd appreciate hearing that.

Speaker 1 And that could make it okay for her to say, I know you had your reasons to pull me out, but it was also hard for me in this and that way. I resent that you did this and that way, whatever it was.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and then they're talking. I also wonder if his older sister, and by the way, there's an older sister in the full letter that he didn't elaborate on, but it sounds like there are three siblings.

Speaker 2 I wonder if they have a relationship and if maybe she could be helpful here too.

Speaker 2 If the younger sister finds it easier to talk to the older sister, maybe one day the older sister could help bring them back together.

Speaker 2 Maybe help her see that our friend here is not the true villain or whatever problems they have, they can work out. Who knows?

Speaker 2 Maybe she can host some kind of sibling chat about all of this one one day when the time is right. They might need a third party to work on things.

Speaker 1 That would be great. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So once again, as I am ought to do, I will fall on the sword and say that you should strongly consider getting into therapy because we're dealing with wounds and relationships, formative relationships that are very primitive, very complicated.

Speaker 2 Clearly, this goes back a long way. You're also asking about aspects of self that are profound.

Speaker 2 Feeling confident, feeling worthy, feeling like you have a place in the world, feeling secure enough to relate to new people in a way that feels safe.

Speaker 2 There's some significant processing and talking and hopefully healing that has to happen here.

Speaker 2 There's also some crucial stuff that needs to happen in order for you to rewrite this template that probably got created with your mom.

Speaker 2 So to learn how to depend on someone who's healthy and consistent, who can give you a very different experience of closeness.

Speaker 2 And by the way, that's one of the powerful things about working with a good therapist. That relational piece is often one of the most healing parts of therapy.

Speaker 2 It's not just what you talk about, but whom you're you're talking about it with and the quality of that connection and the quality of their attention, which can be so different from the influences growing up.

Speaker 2 This is going to take some time, and I would just love for you to have a partner in that. And 29 is a great age to begin therapy.
You're still young.

Speaker 2 And these are crucial years to work on this stuff and still enjoy decades of benefits.

Speaker 1 For sure. And if you need help finding one, please write us and we can try to help.
But listen. While you work on getting to therapy, I'll just say this.

Speaker 1 I think one of the big projects of your life will be working with this wound, hopefully in ways that are helpful, learning to make peace with it and find other sources of love and connection with people who are stable and consistent.

Speaker 1 That is absolutely possible. You do not have the mother you want.
You do not have the mother that you deserve.

Speaker 1 But that doesn't mean you can't build meaningful relationships with people that are loving and fulfilling. And some of those might be maternal.

Speaker 1 It's not the same thing as having a great mom, but it can be very powerful.

Speaker 1 I also think that those relationships can be with places and communities and activities like working, volunteering, traveling, dedicating yourself to a certain field or a certain goal, all of that.

Speaker 2 I also hear you that if you can't reconnect with your sister, you at least want to make peace with all this.

Speaker 2 And that's also a crucial part of life, knowing what you can change, accepting what you can't, you know, the wisdom of the serenity prayers. That's an ancient kind of idea.

Speaker 2 And that always ends up being a process of grief, as we talk about. I wish that there were a clear playbook for this kind of acceptance, but there unfortunately isn't.

Speaker 1 Yeah, wouldn't that be nice? Let me know if you find a copy. I could use it.

Speaker 2 Same. There's really no rubric for like surrendering.
There's no easy how-to guide for this stuff, but he's right that that's a part of the equation.

Speaker 1 Definitely more process than destination.

Speaker 2 So I find that it usually ends up being more about what you don't do than what you do do, which is yet another source of grief and sometimes even an injury because you have to confront, I can't fix this overnight.

Speaker 2 I can't change it. I can't make this situation anything other than what it is.
I can't make my sister feel differently about me magically.

Speaker 2 It's brutal, but knowing when it's time to just allow things to be, that can sometimes get you closer to the progress that you're looking for than actively doing something. It's a weird paradox.

Speaker 1 Totally. The piece is almost like a byproduct of a kind of healthy giving up.
Exactly. So look, man, I'm so sorry your mom was such a nightmare, but here's the good news.
You're an adult now.

Speaker 1 You're free of her. You have some challenges, of course, and they are very real, but they are not insurmountable.

Speaker 1 There are resources and communities and experiences available to you that will really help you move through this and start to create a very different life, a very different experience of yourself.

Speaker 1 I promise you that.

Speaker 2 I would also ask you, what exactly you're looking for in wanting to reconnect with your mom, beyond just the basic need to have a mom. What are you hoping to achieve?

Speaker 2 What experience are you hoping to have with her?

Speaker 2 There's nothing abnormal about wanting a mom in your life, of course, but given the mom you have and all of the data you have about how that might go, there's probably something more going on here, and that would be good for you to understand.

Speaker 2 Are you hoping to try things in a new way and find a different result with her? If so,

Speaker 2 what would that give you? Or are you hoping to not have to live with the sadness anymore, this loss?

Speaker 2 Again, perfectly understandable, but if reconnecting with her is a way to avoid that feeling as opposed to building a meaningful relationship with her, which honestly does not sound very possible right now, I would just try to sit with that a little bit before you reach out because I think there might be a few things going on here.

Speaker 1 Agreed. My hope for you is that you learn to bear this pain around your mom while you open yourself up to those sources of help and slowly start trying things in a new way.
Relationships, especially.

Speaker 1 Easier said than done, I know, but that's your job now. It's okay to feel unprepared.
It's okay to feel lost. Everyone does from time to time.
Don't let that stop you. Start there.

Speaker 1 You have enough to get yourself to the next person, the next place. And the main one I would prioritize is therapy.
The confidence, the healing, the peace.

Speaker 1 All of those will come when you start to address this pain and work on things. I would make that your primary focus right now.
Sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best.

Speaker 1 You know what makes a great Christmas gift for your estranged sister, Gabriel? The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

Speaker 1 This episode is sponsored in part by BetterHelp.

Speaker 1 One of my favorite winter traditions is piling the kids into the car, grabbing hot chocolate, driving around different neighborhoods to look at Christmas lights.

Speaker 1 But as fun as the season is, it also gets busy, stressful, and sometimes a little emotional, building in something like therapy, a moment to slow down, reflect, get some clarity, feels like a new tradition worth keeping.

Speaker 1 That is one of the many reasons why I recommend BetterHelp. My parents have used it, I've used it, Jen uses it, a lot of our friends use it.

Speaker 1 We just know a lot of people that need therapy, like you, for example. And their therapists are fully licensed.
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Speaker 1 Now, back to Feedback Friday.

Speaker 1 Okay, what's next?

Speaker 2 Dear Jordan and Gabe, I've been with my partner for over five years, and he's the most loving, supportive man I've ever ever been with.

Speaker 2 He notices the little things, is always quick to compliment me, and makes me feel truly seen and valued. Even when he's busy with his phone or video games, I never have to fight for his attention.

Speaker 2 He'll stop whatever he's doing to give me his full focus. He's attentive and affectionate and always puts me first, even with a demanding military job that includes long, physically exhausting hours.

Speaker 1 Great. Really enjoyed that tasty little canap.
Now let's get to the main course, shall we?

Speaker 2 But he doesn't handle stress well and relies on alcohol to cope drinking every day. While he's never gotten sloppy or out of control, it's frustrating watching him turn to something unhealthy.

Speaker 2 A few years ago, I also discovered that he was hiding Zinn from me, which led to a big fight.

Speaker 2 Not just because I dislike the habit, but because he was keeping it from me by hiding it in the bathroom when he was drunk to use it.

Speaker 1 Ugh, Zin, for anyone who doesn't know, it's a nicotine pouch you put in your mouth.

Speaker 2 It's kind of like snuss, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah, you put it between your gum and your lip, and you're like mainlining tobacco sludge and the buckale, I think is the word for it, because it goes between your cheek and your lip and your gum.

Speaker 1 I have never projectile vomited harder than when I tried Swedish snus from my buddy Johan in the 90s.

Speaker 2 Ugh, sounds so intense. My Swedish friend also uses it.
It's big over there, right?

Speaker 1 The whole of Scandinavia, they love their snus, man. I do not.

Speaker 2 No, they're like Tootsie Rolls for grown-ups, huh?

Speaker 1 Like Tootsie Rolls for grown-ups. If Tootsie Rolls gave you mouth cancer and made you have to take a crap immediately after putting one in.
It's so fun, guys.

Speaker 2 He promised to be honest going forward, and I made it clear that if he ever hit it again, I'd leave. Then, recently, we were relocated to a very small town for his job.
We're both very unhappy here.

Speaker 2 There's little to do, no social circle, and we've both struggled to make friends.

Speaker 2 His work stress has also ramped up significantly, and a few months ago, I had a gut feeling he was hiding the Zin again. I searched and found multiple multiple cans hidden around the house.

Speaker 2 When I confronted him he lied again before eventually admitting to it. I was furious.
Around that time his drinking escalated to a bottle of Johnny Walker every two days.

Speaker 1 Okay, that's more worrisome. That is not a small amount.
That, gosh, thinking about drinking that much is making my stomach hurt.

Speaker 2 He promised to cut back on the drinking and try to quit Zinn. Then, a week later, I noticed that a bottle of liquor was missing a couple of shots.
When I confronted him, he lied again.

Speaker 2 So I packed a bag, grabbed my cat, and drove 11 hours to my dad's house just to get some space.

Speaker 2 I've been cheated on in the past, so the lies, even about quote-unquote small things, trigger deep mistrust. If he's hiding this, what else could he be hiding?

Speaker 1 I was just about to say, given that this isn't, you know, like hiding

Speaker 1 crack heroin, whatever, or passing out drunk on the lawnmower every night.

Speaker 2 What is it about this really that's so particularly upsetting to her?

Speaker 1 Right, Right. I mean, he's an alcoholic, but here's the answer.
Being lied to even about small things, that hurts.

Speaker 2 And then it echoes this thing in the past. So there we are.

Speaker 1 Yes. I totally get why this is doing a number on her.
It's a wound, and now she's assuming the worst. And it's not completely irrational.

Speaker 2 I'm not proud of it, but I went through his phone, social media, and even credit card statements, but didn't find anything.

Speaker 1 I just want a quick aside here. There's all these people who are like, I'm ashamed.
I went through my partner's phone after they lied to me. Don't be ashamed of that at all.
No.

Speaker 1 If somebody is giving you, no, like, I know people are like, privacy is sacred. By the time you go through their phone, the relationship is over.

Speaker 2 Not really.

Speaker 1 You want to confirm if you're spiraling about something reasonable. It's not like he was five minutes late coming home and he's never late.

Speaker 1 So I went through his phone, his social media, his credit card statements, called his mom, called his ex-girlfriend. You're not being crazy.

Speaker 1 He's lied about alcohol abuse and tobacco abuse multiple times. And so you went through his phone and social media to make sure that he wasn't cheating on you or doing something even worse.

Speaker 1 I don't know. Is that unreasonable?

Speaker 2 Not really. I don't know.

Speaker 1 Maybe I'm crazy.

Speaker 2 It's not unreasonable from the standpoint of I totally understand why someone in this situation might feel the need to do that.

Speaker 2 I go back and forth on whether that's fair, even if you have a reason to suspect somebody, because privacy is sacred. It really is.
But I've never been in this situation. So what do I know?

Speaker 2 Maybe if I were her, I would totally be doing that.

Speaker 1 Look, I haven't done it, but I feel like if I lied to Jen about stuff multiple times and she was like, all right, well, I'm looking through your email that I have access to already just to see if you're like doing something really weird and drinking or doing drugs or buying drugs online.

Speaker 2 I don't know.

Speaker 1 It's not totally unreasonable, dude. I don't know.

Speaker 1 Again, maybe I'm the crazy one. Anyway, continue.

Speaker 2 Then, while I was away, things took another turn. My 15-year-old cat got sick and was diagnosed with cancer.

Speaker 1 I'm sorry to hear that.

Speaker 2 That's so sad. That sucks.
Kitty.

Speaker 2 I'm sorry. I had to choose between staying at my dad's and driving five hours round trip for treatments or moving back home home where an oncologist is nearby.
I came home.

Speaker 2 Then, adding to the stress, I lost my government job as a software engineer earlier this year due to federal cuts.

Speaker 1 That sucks. I'm sorry.
When it rains, it pours, eh?

Speaker 2 It sure does. She's going through a lot, man.
So she goes on. Since March, I've applied for over 600 jobs and have only gotten a handful of interviews with no offers.

Speaker 2 I have two bachelor's degrees in computer information systems and communication, and yet I'm currently working as a barista just to bring something in.

Speaker 2 My confidence is shot, and the $11,000 in counting and vet bills has nearly drained my savings.

Speaker 1 That's really hard.

Speaker 2 I've kept in touch with my professional network, but my entire career has been in the government, and as you can imagine, there aren't any opportunities there at this time.

Speaker 2 I've tried to encourage my partner to find healthier coping methods, but after working for 24 hours or more and hardly getting to sleep, if at all, he's too exhausted for things like the gym.

Speaker 2 I've suggested therapy, but he refuses to try it. With everything going on, I've shifted into survival mode and haven't pressed the issue as hard.

Speaker 1 Yeah, this is tough. But if you have time to stop at Bevmo and pick up a handle and some Zinn, you have time to knock out some sun salutations, go for a walk, something.

Speaker 1 I think he's going out of his mind. Dude's working crazy shifts, 24-hour plus.
I mean, alcohol and tobacco help him numb that stuff.

Speaker 2 I get it. How do you work 24 hours? in the military.
Don't they have shifts?

Speaker 1 Yes, but here's what it could be, man.

Speaker 1 Like, if you, let's say you work in like a missile silo, I know that's an extreme example, but it's just one that comes to mind because my buddy had a job like this.

Speaker 1 He had to be around in case they had to launch missiles. So you're not like awake at a computer working for 24 hours.
You're in a bunk reading, bored out of your mind, underground sometimes.

Speaker 1 And you sleep and you wake up and you check stuff and then you've got your messages and you sweep up or whatever and you make sure the computer turns on, I guess, and then you go back to bed.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's incredibly boring. He says he has a stressful job, so maybe it's something more than that, but you can work shifts like at a hospital.

Speaker 1 You have a 24-hour shift as a nurse, but you're asleep for some of this, theoretically. Right.

Speaker 2 Yeah, fair enough. Still, my partner has been incredibly supportive through all of this.

Speaker 2 He's been there for me emotionally, especially regarding my career situation and knowing that he may have to support us financially for a time, and he has never once wavered in his encouragement.

Speaker 2 He's trying to quit the Zen, though I still get frustrated when he admits that he slipped up.

Speaker 2 He no longer drinks a bottle of whiskey every few days, but when he does bring home shooters, he'll hide them from me to avoid an argument.

Speaker 2 By staying, am I teaching him that lying comes without consequences? Is this a pattern, or did I back him into a corner where being honest felt impossible?

Speaker 1 Ooh, interesting way to put it. I appreciate that you're curious about that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, both can be true, I think.

Speaker 1 Let's get into that.

Speaker 2 How can my partner cope with stress in a career that is so mentally and physically demanding when he refuses therapy?

Speaker 2 Do I just need to accept that as long as he's in the military, his drinking habits will be the reality and stop nagging him about it? And do you have any advice for my job search?

Speaker 2 Signed, putting an end to these stimulants when my dude is quite literally being militant, that these vices are pretty innocent and he won't get on the couch and get intimate.

Speaker 2 Is my anger here legitimate or do I need to make peace with this predicament?

Speaker 2 Because maybe I'm just hyper-vigilant and my interventions are proving impotent.

Speaker 1 Wow. Okay, lots going on here.
Let me start by saying again, I'm so sorry you guys are going through such a rough patch.

Speaker 1 Life really do be like that sometimes, and sometimes there's very little we can do about it.

Speaker 2 Yeah, speaking of surrendering, huh? Yeah. The process they're in is tough.

Speaker 1 It sucks. There's no way around it.
Problems at home, setbacks at work, a big move, a disappointing move, a frustrating job search, a pet getting sick. I mean, holy cow, this is a lot, my friend.

Speaker 1 I'm not trying to slap a band-aid on it or anything. I'm not saying like, oh, just give up and wait.
Or like the universe provides, right?

Speaker 1 But sometimes there is an element of that to surviving these things, patience and surrender. These phases never last forever.
Something's got to give.

Speaker 1 And sometimes you just got to wait for the tide to turn a little bit and then build from there. Now, people are screaming at us right now, Gabriel.

Speaker 1 That said, I find this conflict with your partner very interesting because people are going to be like, I turned off the episode as soon as you said that.

Speaker 1 And I didn't listen to the rest, but I took three hours to write this seven-page email to you about how I'm disappointed.

Speaker 1 Anyway, look, I'm on your side here. I'm sure his life, both your lives, honestly, would be a lot easier if he were not drinking, if he weren't sneaking nicotine hits around the house.

Speaker 1 That can't be making what sounds like an already stressful life less stressful. The hangovers, the dependency, the secrecy, and the lies, totally with you on that.

Speaker 1 By the way, Gabe, whenever people tell me like, oh, he's drinking a half a bottle of Jack Daniels and doing Zen every day, I'm like, this guy must wake up feeling like absolute dog turds.

Speaker 2 I was thinking about that. How is he doing that and then going to work for 24 plus hours? That's bananas.

Speaker 1 My dude, I have one drink at 5 p.m. My sleep is totally screwed.
The next day, I'm like, good thing it's Saturday.

Speaker 1 This guy's like having the amount of alcohol I drink in a year every day, and then he's hitting nicotine on top of that. Like, my God, my kidneys would be checked out.

Speaker 2 I have a week blocked off of my Google calendar in 2026 for a drink I'm going to have to celebrate at the end of this script.

Speaker 2 That's why I plan for these things these days.

Speaker 1 Eggnog on Thursday. Well, write me off till next Thanksgiving.

Speaker 1 At the same time, in the grand scheme of things, and I hate that I'm saying this, but alcohol and Zin are somehow not the worst addictions you can have.

Speaker 1 Obviously, I think any addiction, once it becomes a clear addiction, you got to look at that. But I don't know, he's not coming home blasted and starting violent arguments with you.

Speaker 1 He's not driving home drunk or treating you poorly in other ways. This sounds more like I'm really stressed and this is the only way I know how to unwind and it's super unhealthy.

Speaker 1 And less like my life is falling apart and I'm turning into a monster that can't be tamed.

Speaker 2 Fair enough, but this is a spectrum and we all know that these addictions can very easily snowball.

Speaker 1 Exactly. This could all change tomorrow.
And drinking a half a bottle of Johnny Walker every night, that's not a beer after work. He's clearly struggling to cut back, so there's that.

Speaker 2 But then he's apparently a wonderful guy in all these other ways. He's supportive, and he's loving, and attentive and affectionate, and he always puts her first.
Well,

Speaker 2 interesting. Maybe not in every regard.
It sounds like the booze and Zen is like the third wheel in their relationship, but he sounds like a solid guy all around.

Speaker 2 So this is an interesting contradiction.

Speaker 1 Right. So I hold all these qualities alongside this addiction, too.
And I guess I feel for a guy who probably feels stressed, scared, trapped, hopeless. And I'm guessing he has other issues.

Speaker 1 I have no idea what they are, but we've all got them that are just making him turn to alcohol. So I'm not letting him off the hook, not at all.

Speaker 1 Just trying to put this in perspective a little bit and try to imagine what might be going on for him.

Speaker 2 Yes. But then there's also the layer of this, like we talked about, that's about her past.
Right.

Speaker 1 And like you said, that's magnifying everything.

Speaker 1 It sounds like he isn't doing anything else wrong based on what you know, of course, but the fact that he's lying to you, that's enough to send you spiraling, especially right now.

Speaker 1 That's at least partly your stuff intersecting with his stuff. Again, Q emails of us like, you're blaming her for his addiction, which is not what we're saying at all.

Speaker 2 Not at all.

Speaker 2 No, I just think it's always a good idea to ask what part of this situation is what this person is doing to me and what part of this is how I'm responding or making sense of what they're doing to me.

Speaker 1 Right. What am I doing with what they're doing that's making me go fill in the blank? Spiral out, fly off the handle, drive 11 hours to my dad's house.

Speaker 1 Not that that was even an unreasonable response, in my opinion, but just saying.

Speaker 2 I do want to be very clear about this. Your partner has an addiction, even if it's a relatively mild one, although I'm kind of getting a mixed picture about that, to be honest.
It's moderate.

Speaker 2 I don't know. Is that mild?

Speaker 1 That's a lot of booze, dog.

Speaker 2 It is a lot of booze. And being in a relationship with somebody who is addicted and doesn't seem to want to...

Speaker 2 meaningfully work on it, that is always, always going to expose you to a certain amount of chaos and hurt. So that is fair.
But then there's still how you're making meaning out of that hurt.

Speaker 2 And that is playing a big role here too. That's what Jordan is saying.

Speaker 1 Yes, that's what's hers. So it's an interesting question.
Are you teaching him that lying comes without consequences by sticking around?

Speaker 1 Well, in a way, yes, you're saying you have to get a handle on this stuff or I'm out, but you're not leaving. So that right there, that's showing him how seriously you actually take this.

Speaker 2 But there are a couple other questions you might want to be asking right now, too. One of them is, are you actually prepared to leave if he doesn't quit the alcohol and tobacco?

Speaker 2 Maybe the answer is yes. Maybe it's no.
I do wonder if you've really thought deeply about that. It sounds to me like emotions are running pretty high these days.

Speaker 2 And when you found out that he was lying again, you bounced.

Speaker 2 And I would be curious to know what exactly you were running from, if it was to teach him a lesson or if it was just that the feelings in the house were so chaotic, you just needed to get away from them.

Speaker 2 But when it became a practical necessity to move back, you did, all of which I get, but it just, there isn't really a clear strategy or stance here.

Speaker 1 Right. She might have some thinking to do about what her standards actually are, what her red line is, whether she's really prepared to leave and stand by that decision if he keeps drinking.

Speaker 2 But then another question is, let's say you get clear on this thing we were just talking about.

Speaker 2 How much of your hurt is about being cheated on in the past and how much of it is about your partner lying to you now and if it's even the same kind of secrecy. Let's say you parse that.

Speaker 2 And you realize, oh, okay, I'm actually responsible for this piece of my anger, my hurt, not him. Do you still want to leave?

Speaker 2 Do you still feel the need to show him that you can't stay if he's not taking better care of himself? So I'm asking you that. That is not a leading question.
Both seem fair. Both seem possible.

Speaker 2 But I raise it because again, I think part of the confusion here and the inconsistency is actually about not being totally clear yourself.

Speaker 1 I would agree with that, Gabe, but there are also some practical considerations here. She's struggling professionally.
She needs to be close to the animal hospital.

Speaker 2 Right. So her choices are constrained to some degree.
I totally get that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, she doesn't have total freedom. She depends on him right now.

Speaker 1 And let's remember, he's being a generous provider and a steady support, and she has some responsibilities that make this more complicated.

Speaker 2 Okay, so there's another good question. How much do I prioritize these practical needs right now? My cat, my money situation, keeping a roof over my head, and how much do I stand on principle?

Speaker 1 I like framing that as a question, because she ultimately needs to decide that for herself.

Speaker 1 It's hard for me to say definitively, Punishing him for not being sober is more important than stabilizing herself right now, or stability is more important than holding him accountable.

Speaker 1 I just can't say that.

Speaker 2 Of course, and I hate that she doesn't have total freedom right now to make this choice from a place of what's right or what she needs to feel totally safe and respected.

Speaker 2 On the other hand, it might clarify what actually does matter most to her right now.

Speaker 1 So let's talk about, is this a pattern with your partner or did you back him into a corner where being honest felt impossible? Like I said, great question.

Speaker 1 The way you frame this tells me that you're open to looking at this from a few angles. You're making room for him and I appreciate that.
More importantly, I think he'll appreciate that.

Speaker 1 And my feeling is this is clearly a pattern. He lied multiple times about this.
He's gone on and off the wagon, or maybe never actually was on the wagon. I don't know.
So there's a cycle here.

Speaker 1 And that's a point in your favor. Absolutely.
But I also think that there's probably a lot happening for your partner on his side of the equation.

Speaker 1 So yes, one of those things might be that he feels the cost of being honest with you is very high, prohibitively high.

Speaker 2 And that cost is what? Provoking her, hurting her?

Speaker 1 Hurting her, yeah. And touching this wound she has around being lied to.
At least I hope he appreciates that.

Speaker 1 So, in his mind, he's going, yo, I'd rather just keep this a secret because I don't want to upset this person I love. I just need time to sort this out in my own way.

Speaker 2 So, I hear that, but I also think that might be letting him off the hook a little bit because he's not just lying about this to spare her, he's doing it to spare himself.

Speaker 2 He doesn't want to deal with it.

Speaker 1 Definitely, yeah. No, he does not want to deal with the consequences.
There's that.

Speaker 2 He doesn't want to deal with her understandable anger, her disappointment, her anxiety, the stress of conflict in general. So his addiction, even if it's not the most severe, is upsetting to her.

Speaker 2 Does it have to be as upsetting as it is to her? Maybe not.

Speaker 2 But is it always going to be somewhat upsetting to see your partner cope with a not insignificant amount of alcohol and a secret tobacco addiction that could give you cancer and not go to the gym or not go to therapy instead?

Speaker 2 I'm sure. And so, yeah, he's lying to her and that's not cool.

Speaker 1 So this is complicated. No, it's not cool.
And I get that. I'm not saying what he's doing is okay.
I'm just saying fair or unfair.

Speaker 1 If she wants to understand him, the way she's responding to all this, it might be making it that much harder for him to drag this into the open. Yeah, fair.
Totally fair.

Speaker 1 For him to go, so here's the deal. I'm stressed as hell.
I can't seem to kick this in. I have three canisters of it lying around the house.
I don't want to hide it from you.

Speaker 1 I know that's not fair, but I also can't function without it. I need help or I need to at least know that I can use it for a little while without feeling like I'm hurting you.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's a fair point. And honestly, if I put myself in his shoes, I think he definitely needs to take a hard look at his habits.

Speaker 2 But I can also imagine how the intensity of a partner's reaction might make this very risky territory for him.

Speaker 1 Yeah, which is one more reason that she might want to learn how to work with these feelings a little better and make the most helpful decisions around them so she can feel them.

Speaker 1 And she's definitely allowed to feel this stuff.

Speaker 1 Look, I'm not saying that I feel like we're telling a line here. She's allowed to feel these feelings without putting even more distance between her and her partner.

Speaker 2 But then to go back to the point about where one person ends and the other person begins, he might also need to learn how to bear the perhaps appropriate intensity of her feelings better and not retreat and hide and then create more secrets because that then becomes his stuff again.

Speaker 2 And that just feeds the cycle.

Speaker 1 My God, this ping-pong match is endless, isn't it?

Speaker 2 Relationships are wild. It's like that meme.
You know that meme with the eight Spider-Man standing in the alley and they're all pointing a finger at one another?

Speaker 2 That's what this stuff makes me think of.

Speaker 1 Exactly. Are you doing this to me or am I doing this to you? And if I'm doing it to you, it's because you did this other thing to me.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 Yeah. But then maybe I'm also doing it to myself.
Exactly.

Speaker 1 So confusing. Does it ever end? Does it ever just get to be one person's fault? Come on.

Speaker 2 I'm not sure. Honestly, I think about this a lot.
I think it's more about appreciating the process that we're in with people, which is usually very complex.

Speaker 2 More than, you know, you need to stop doing this end of story or you made me feel this way because you did such and such. And so this is your fault.
Or this is all my fault.

Speaker 1 Right. Making room for all the data, multiple narratives.

Speaker 2 At a certain point, you can go around in circles forever and ever and eventually the whole thing kind of falls apart. But just being able to say, okay, we agree that drinking excessively is bad.
Yes.

Speaker 2 So when you drink and then you lie to me about it, that really worries me and it hurts me. And it hurts me extra because of the last time I was lied to, even though I know you're not cheating on me.

Speaker 1 Because I checked your phone.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 So let's start there. What do you need to take take better care of? And what do I need to take better care of? Even that would be a huge step forward in a conflict like this.

Speaker 1 And that doesn't ultimately require anybody to be ultimately right.

Speaker 2 No. I mean, maybe someone is right in certain ways.
For example, I think she's right that he's drinking too much.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. So do I.
So people who've already written three paragraphs about how we screwed this up, you can delete those paragraphs.

Speaker 2 But he might also be right that her trauma, which he is not responsible for, is amplifying all of this and perhaps making it harder for them to talk.

Speaker 2 So what I'm saying is there's a more interesting question than who is right. The better question is, what is really happening here?

Speaker 1 Yeah, nice. So speaking of what's really happening, she also can't make him go to therapy.
God, we've tried.

Speaker 2 I mean, if we can't do it, no one could do it, unfortunately, no. But she can ask him why he doesn't want to go, take a real interest in that and see if he's willing to talk about it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, because then I'd have to acknowledge that something is wrong with me. And I know deep down that that's the case.
Right.

Speaker 1 And in the unique challenges of being in the military, he's going to have to figure out what he's numbing by drinking.

Speaker 2 What's coming up for him right before he downs half a bottle of Johnny Walker, puts some Zin in his mouth. Clearly, there's something going on there.

Speaker 1 Maybe if he saw that he could bring that to her without turning it into a fight about his addiction, I feel like that would go a long way. Maybe.

Speaker 2 That would be great for them. I hope that can happen.

Speaker 1 I also think just being super practical here, if there's some way you guys could create healthier habits together, like you guys go for a walk at night during the time he's usually slamming booze, or you listen to an audio book about addiction or trauma or coping with the military in the car, and you talk about it together, stuff like that.

Speaker 1 I wonder if that might also help you guys make progress here. If he absolutely refuses to see a therapist, I'd love for him to get there, but there are other sources of help.

Speaker 1 As for the job search, you know what I'd usually say? Relationships, relationships, relationships.

Speaker 1 I know you're already doing that, but still, you got to keep them up because you never know when you're going to connect with that one person who opens a door for you.

Speaker 1 But more than that, when you're being sea blocked by Doge and federal cuts and all those forces that are out of your control, the best advice I can give you is that you got to be resourceful.

Speaker 1 You got to be creative. You got to be driven.
And you have to keep having conversations that put you in touch with the people and ideas that are going to show you the way forward.

Speaker 1 The answer to your job woes might be to just keep going, or it might be to pivot to find a new field or a new function or a new calling entirely.

Speaker 1 But if you're coming home from the cafe and watching four hours of Love Island every night, no shade, I heard it's amazing, but that's not going to get your career back on track.

Speaker 1 Or if you're spending your break at the cafe scrolling Instagram for 45 minutes instead of sending a few messages to people in your field and trying to book a call with them, then you're not truly doing everything you could be doing right now.

Speaker 1 I know how bleak the federal world is right now. I know this is the last thing you want to be doing these days, but this is the Uncle Jordan giving you a loving kick in the pants if you need it.

Speaker 2 But listen, I just want to reiterate, you are going through an exceptionally tough time right now. And I do think it's okay to flounder a little bit right now.
We all have those chapters.

Speaker 2 If this time ends up being about treading water while you take care of your cat and you try to find a new way of talking with your partner while you do this temporary job, I know it's very painful, but that might not be the worst thing in the world.

Speaker 2 Stressful, uncertain, difficult, yes, sure, but maybe also in another way, potentially productive.

Speaker 2 Once one or two of these challenges ease up, and like Jordan said at the beginning, they do have a way of doing that weirdly. I promise it will get easier to tackle the other things.

Speaker 2 But trying to do all of these things at once can be, it just makes you want to roll over and give up.

Speaker 1 Also, by the way, sleep.

Speaker 2 Sleep.

Speaker 1 Get some sleep. You got us.
Both, you guys. Get some sleep and eat well.
Don't drink too much. Easier said than done for some versus others.
And surround yourself with good people.

Speaker 1 Stay focused on the things that matter. All right.
I think we hit our wisdom quota for this segment. Maybe I need a drink now, I think.
I don't know. I'm kidding.

Speaker 1 I can't afford that amount of time off. I can't afford two weeks off.

Speaker 2 No, we have a lot of work to do in February, Jordan.

Speaker 1 That's right. Exactly.
You know, Gabe, I'm just sitting here thinking about this story and there are always going to be people who write in after a segment like this going, he lied to you.

Speaker 1 Kick him to the curb. End of story.
If this were Reddit, that would be the most up-voted answer.

Speaker 1 But all questions and conflicts, if you really want to understand what's happening, they deserve nuance and nuanced answers just don't make for good sound bites, especially on social media or whatever.

Speaker 1 But it's kind of the only way that I'm interested. And I know you're interested, Gabe, in understanding situations like this.

Speaker 2 Right. And clearly so is she, which I really appreciate.

Speaker 1 I think a lot of people like to do what we were just talking about, which is to go, okay, who do we blame? Who's the bad guy? And there's a place for that. There are obviously situations.

Speaker 1 I mean, we say this on the show all the time too, where one person is the aggressor and one person is the villain, at least according to the person who wrote in, for sure.

Speaker 1 But more often than not, and even in those situations where there is a clear villain, there's still two people in a relationship.

Speaker 1 So in my view, it's highly simplistic, almost deliberately uncurious to paint with a broad brush and tell someone to say, break up with their partner when the way they're showing up in a conflict that they didn't instigate is also playing a big role in their outcomes.

Speaker 2 It's just

Speaker 1 interesting to appreciate. Okay, you can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com.
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Speaker 2 Hey, Jordan and Gabe. My mom and I are extremely close, and she has always been an amazing support in so many different areas of my life.

Speaker 2 Some of our most interesting conversations lately have been about politics, as we have different political approaches that are genuinely fun to debate with someone who has points that will challenge my beliefs.

Speaker 2 These conversations have led me to realize how much of an echo chamber I have unwittingly fallen into.

Speaker 2 My mom and I swapped feeds and shared with each other some of the more political posts that are being shown to us, and the difference in messaging between our two feeds was incredibly disheartening, but very illuminating.

Speaker 2 I can see why we are so divided as a society.

Speaker 1 That's a great exercise. I like that.

Speaker 2 Also, I love that you and your mom can talk like this, that you're doing this feed swap thing together. It's very sweet.

Speaker 1 Right, and so helpful. I wish more families were like this.
I cannot imagine doing a feed swap with my dad. He would just be like, I don't know what I read.

Speaker 2 Do you have any advice on how to grow my social network to include people with different beliefs so I can have more of these constructive conversations?

Speaker 2 Do you have any advice on staying up to date on news that is more focused on the problems and solutions instead of political power struggles?

Speaker 2 Do you have any checks and balances you use to ensure that you are getting the full context of news stories? Signed, Doing Labor to Attain Here, a Way Out of This Echo Chamber.

Speaker 1 Great question. This is something I'm constantly asking myself, too.
It's really hard to do. It's getting harder and harder, but it's so important.
And I love that it's important to you, too.

Speaker 1 That already puts you in just leagues beyond most people consuming information these days. So we wanted to get an expert's opinion on this.

Speaker 1 So we reached out to Jaron Lanier, early internet pioneer, computer scientist, and author of 10 Arguments for Deleting Your Social Media Accounts Right Now.

Speaker 1 He was a guest on the show, wow, episode 156. So like a thousand episodes ago, approximately, I think.
And Jaron's take was a little brutal, insightful, but brutal.

Speaker 1 His take was, right now, there is no way to get this kind of relief reliably from any top platform or service.

Speaker 1 He said that there are platforms out there that make a real attempt to combat bias, ones that focus on eliminating their readers' political blind spots.

Speaker 1 But Jaron said that even these sites tend to fall short of their original versions.

Speaker 1 Basically, in his view, we're stuck in a society in which we are essentially products that make more power and influence for the richest people who, and I'm quoting him here, get richer and more influential according to how isolated, lonely, vain, nervous, partisan, and sad you become.

Speaker 1 And that's the truth. Your pain is their wealth.
That is the fundamental truth. of the winner-take-all attention and automation economy.
So that's the brutal part.

Speaker 1 And honestly, I I can't say I disagree with him. Even more moderate or rigorous sources, they're all part of the internet or broader media culture in some way.

Speaker 1 And that's driven by clicks and shares and ad impressions and all that. And at the end of the day, those will end up being driven by primitive emotions.
So it's tough. But here's the good news.

Speaker 1 The only answer, Jaron said, is to do what you are doing with your mother. Connect outside of the platforms with real humans in the real world and communicate.

Speaker 1 People sitting at dinner with you, people at bars, people you meet, I don't know, volunteering at the the animal shelter or whatever, as opposed to a right-wing troll on X with a Nick Fuentes photo or a left-wing conspiracy theorist on Reddit or whatever Telegram channel or forum thread is designed to whip people into a froth.

Speaker 1 But I have other ideas of my own. One, if you want to grow your social network to include people with different beliefs, you can always follow people across the aisle from you.

Speaker 1 You can engage with people in communities that don't agree with you. It's amazing how quickly the algorithm will catch on.

Speaker 1 Your feed will start to diversify pretty quickly, which of course is part of the problem Jaron is talking about.

Speaker 1 But if you're deliberately engaging with different kinds of voices, your feed will probably be an interesting cross-section of what's out there.

Speaker 1 You can also strike up conversations with people who think differently from you and learn from them. Just keep an eye on how much time you're spending doing that because it can take over your life.

Speaker 1 And if you're just arguing with people on the other side as a hobby rather than actually learning from them, that is probably not time well spent.

Speaker 1 And by the way, Gabe, have you seen on, I know you probably don't even use this and I barely do, do, but have you seen on X, there's a new feature that shows you where accounts are based and when they were created?

Speaker 2 No, I haven't been on there in forever. So now you can see like what country these people are from.
And it's like, oh, now that makes sense.

Speaker 1 Yeah. So basically all of these accounts that people are like, we're patriots or like left-wing partisan resistance mafia antifa, whatever.

Speaker 1 You can see where the accounts are created and where they're being accessed from. And a ton of extremist accounts on both sides of the aisle are from Russia, Bangladesh, Nigeria.

Speaker 1 People who are like, I'm a proud Canadian and I just want to say blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, oh, really?

Speaker 1 You're a proud Canadian that's based in checks notes, Nigeria, Russia, Bangladesh, or Iran.

Speaker 1 What's even funnier, Gabriel, is there's all these people who've been so loud about patriotism or like Antifa, anti-racism or whatever it is, just whatever left-right cause.

Speaker 1 And then it's like, oh, is this you, bro? Because the new feature that rolled out yesterday or whatever it was, a couple of weeks ago, with no warning says that you're in DACA.

Speaker 1 And it's like, they just delete their account overnight. No response, nothing, just deleted.

Speaker 2 I'm confused, though. Are they bots or are they paid trolls?

Speaker 1 Yeah, both. Probably paid trolls, some of the more advanced ones, because they build big followings, whipping people up.

Speaker 1 And they're almost certainly funded by America's enemies in some form in order to whip us up and divide us. 100%.
We know this, but it's easy to forget.

Speaker 1 Because the ones there have been other people will get called out. Like there's an anti-conspiracy theory account where they're like, aha, you're in Latvia.

Speaker 1 And he's like, yes, see this tweet where I said studying abroad in Latvia and shows the university that I'm now guest lecturing at. Not a secret.
I'm from Latvia. And then they go on with their life.

Speaker 1 But when they're like, what? This person was a proud Canadian or proud New Yorker or whatever yesterday. And now we find out they're in Russia and they just delete their account.

Speaker 1 And people are like, ah. So basically that was an information warfare thing and it's just nuked.
So funnily enough, Elon just nuked all of these overnight.

Speaker 1 Now, the problem is they're going to come back having used a VPN to create an account that says they were in Ohio and they're logging in from Ohio, even though they're still in Russia.

Speaker 1 So it didn't solve the problem, but man, it took a huge bite out of the current today's troll warfare infrastructure.

Speaker 2 So it just sounds like a game of whack-a-mole.

Speaker 1 It is. And there's basically nothing we can do about this because we're a free country.
Those countries, they control the internet, so they don't allow dissent in many places like this.

Speaker 1 You can't post anything like this.

Speaker 1 You'll get shut down and the police will come after you or they'll say, you know, you got to take this guy offline because he's saying something bad about the Ayatollahs, whatever it is.

Speaker 1 So we really can't do anything about this on our end. Anyway, back to the task at hand.
I think it's better that you expand your information diet beyond social media.

Speaker 1 Books, in my opinion, are the best source. Newsletters, and I mean thoughtful ones, longer form ones written by true experts who know how to write and argue well, those are also great.

Speaker 1 Think tank articles, white papers, they can have a skew, but they're still better. Podcasts are, they're hit and miss, man.

Speaker 1 You can drop in some amazing long-form conversations between some really great thinkers. You can hear how they think through a problem, how they think through an argument.
They're great.

Speaker 1 But you guys know, look, podcasting is not a platform. It's really hard to cancel me for saying something that you don't like.
That's great. So I can be nonpartisan.
I can be as unbiased as possible.

Speaker 1 I can be as left, right, or center as I want to be. Center is kind of where I find myself.
But then you can also just have unhinged, absolute nonsense that's not being checked by anybody.

Speaker 1 And we all know those podcasts. So.
Generally, I like not being able to tell how the person I'm reading or listening to is going to vote. That's just a good sign to me.

Speaker 2 Right. Or what ideologies or agendas they're beholden to before you even read them.
Yeah. For sure.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And these media, these types of thinkers, they also tend to dig more into problems and solutions, philosophy, policy, rather than who's going to win this squabble this week, Trump or Marjorie Taylor Greene?

Speaker 1 Like, who cares?

Speaker 2 Which I agree. That is less useful.
And the shelf life of that kind of reporting, which by the way, is often wrong or misguided. It's so much shorter.
It's shorter.

Speaker 1 So what's the point? It is. It's clickbait nonsense.
It's designed to give you eyeballs and sell you ads, and then the job of that piece is done.

Speaker 1 Whereas understanding a great argument from a top scholar at a think tank on the Middle East or whatever, that could last you decades, that kind of thinking.

Speaker 1 So as for finding checks and balances to get the full context, man, that's hard. It takes a lot of legwork.
It takes a ton of diligence.

Speaker 1 I think your best bet is just to read as many different perspectives on a given issue as you can. See how different sides and different lenses have very different understandings of the same event.

Speaker 1 Try to read media in different countries. Translate it back to English and see how they report on something.
Man, I'll routinely go, okay, this is a European issue.

Speaker 1 I wonder how the South German newspaper, Süddeutsche Zeitung, is reporting on this. And it's like, boop, Google will translate that into English.

Speaker 1 And it's like, oh, this is a much more in-depth, more balanced piece, right? Because I'm not reading about it in like the New York Post or something like that.

Speaker 1 You can also use websites like Snopes to fact check things. It's not perfect, but it's very helpful.
You can use AI to summarize a bunch of articles.

Speaker 1 You can ask it to compare how different journalists and countries are talking about a given issue. That's kind of a cool use case.
But again, if this sounds like a lot of work, it is.

Speaker 1 It can become a full-time job. So keep an eye on your media consumption.
It's so easy to get obsessed with this. I've gone through periods where I was really just too into this.

Speaker 1 And at a certain point, you realize why people just stick with the sources they like, the ones that confirm their pre-existing opinions, because it's easier to do that than to challenge yourself.

Speaker 1 Doing your own analysis is a real investment. It just never ends.
Some good news and some bad news. We're definitely living through a sad and dangerous time for media.

Speaker 1 And to quote Jaron one last time here, it sucks, but there's often something that sucks about any historical period.

Speaker 1 This is one of the things that sucks about ours, and we need to be honest with ourselves about it.

Speaker 1 On the bright side, he also said, humanity has made it through some other sucky times and we'll make it through this one. I love your mindset here.
I love you and your mom's relationship.

Speaker 1 I think we could all afford to be more like you guys. And wherever you shake out on your opinions, the fact that this is something you guys can share, that's really special.
And good luck.

Speaker 1 Big thanks to Jaron for his wisdom here. You can learn more about Jaron at his website, JaronLenyear.com.
While you're detoxing from the digital rage funnel, here's a little palette cleanser.

Speaker 1 Nothing unites America like great deals on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

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Speaker 1 Now, back to Feedback Friday.

Speaker 1 Okay, time for the recommendation of the week.

Speaker 2 I'm addicted to lip filla. So while I was traveling with Erin Margolis, I noticed that she had her passport in a nice passport holder.

Speaker 2 little booklet thing and in the passport holder she had an air tag attached to the cover Oh, that is super smart.

Speaker 1 I should do that. I need to do that.
Right?

Speaker 2 I thought this was brilliant. So simple, very affordable.
And then, if you ever lose your passport, you misplace it or whatever, you don't freak out.

Speaker 2 You can remember where you left it, or you can hopefully track it down.

Speaker 1 You can make it chirp. Can you do that? Yeah, you can make the air tag chirp and it goes,

Speaker 2 yeah, it's nice. No, that's brilliant.
That way, if it falls under the hotel bed or whatever, you know exactly where it is. So, right.

Speaker 1 You're like, I'm standing on it, right? It's like, okay, it's in the sheets or something. Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's lost in my man purse and I couldn't find it exactly. So

Speaker 2 that is my recommendation of the week. A nice passport holder with an air tag in it.
It is super cheap. You can get a passport book for anywhere from like, I want to say six to $20.

Speaker 2 I believe an air tag is what, $30?

Speaker 1 Maybe, yeah, something like that. Maybe even two for $30.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 Subrec of the week, a personalized passport book, you know, with somebody's initials or name on it is a great gift for the holidays. I've seen these on Etsy.
You can probably find them on Amazon.

Speaker 2 I haven't looked, but I'm sure they're there. A few extra dollars.
You put someone's name on it, give them an air tag. This is a great holiday gift, especially for people who like to travel.

Speaker 1 That's a good one. Taking notes over here.
I've seen some funny ones that make your pet, they cover your passport, but they make your passport look like it's from another country.

Speaker 1 And it would be really funny to have one that makes your passport look like you're from North Korea or something.

Speaker 2 I was just about to say, should we get DPRK passport holders? Right. I doubt they make those.

Speaker 1 They probably don't.

Speaker 2 Additionally, why would you want to advertise that?

Speaker 1 It would be kind of funny in the line and people are like, holy smokes.

Speaker 1 But then it's less funny when you get to the front and some the customs guy, the immigration guy's like, wait a minute, hits a red button on his dashboard.

Speaker 2 That gets way less funny when TSA has to take your passport from you.

Speaker 1 Yeah, or when you're getting a body cavity search going through immigration and it takes three hours and you miss your connecting flight because you wanted a black DPRK passport cover.

Speaker 2 Exactly. Is this your passport, sir? We're going to have to run the bags again.
There might be missile launchers in there, so we just need to look.

Speaker 1 We need to swab everything.

Speaker 2 We have to make sure that you're not wearing a O de VX on your neck, sir. Oh, my God.

Speaker 1 Stand over here. That's right.
Yeah, don't fly through Malaysia. Also, in case you don't know, there's a subreddit for our show.

Speaker 1 If you want to jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes, something you like, something you don't like. Doesn't matter.
We want to hear it all. Almost all of it anyway.

Speaker 1 You can find us on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. Okay, what's next?

Speaker 2 Hey, Gordon and Jabe. Yes.

Speaker 2 I'm currently in an industry that is oversaturated and becoming even more so with the increase in graduates being pushed out of universities every year, more than there are roles available.

Speaker 2 I've also become less enthusiastic with this industry, as it's repetitive and no longer challenging. I have, however, gained a huge enthusiasm and interest in cybersecurity.

Speaker 2 I've almost finished a master's level certification in cybersecurity and gained multiple industry certifications. The problem is getting into the industry.

Speaker 2 I've read that it's best to get into help desk roles first, but I'm finding that even those roles are difficult to get into, even to get into the interview stage.

Speaker 2 I also want to get into this industry not only for my mental satisfaction, but also so that it's easier to move back to Melbourne where my partner and I will be closer to family and have support to raise kids in the future.

Speaker 2 How long should I keep trying to switch careers before I should give up and stay in my current career? With the tech industry the way it is, is it even a good idea?

Speaker 2 Signed, Managing My Fear, and wondering if I should give it, say, a year as I hack into this new career.

Speaker 1 Interesting question. Well, first of all, congrats on chasing your passion for cybersecurity.
Well done on finishing all those certs. It sounds like you've really put in the work to make this pivot.

Speaker 1 And I can tell from your email that you're driven, you're dedicated. Those are really good qualities.
Second, I'm sorry that it's been tough to break in.

Speaker 1 I think that's just true of a lot of fields right now, especially desirable ones. It's a very weird time in the job market.
I mean, just look at our friend here in the federal government from Q2.

Speaker 1 It's frustrating, man. I know it's confusing.
This might take a while. And there's part of the job search that's just basically being patient and being hard-headed and not giving up.

Speaker 1 So I can't tell you exactly how long you should try before giving up and staying in your current career. Any length of time would probably be kind of arbitrary.

Speaker 1 I mean, if you try for four years and you're getting nowhere, okay, yeah, maybe not your path.

Speaker 1 But if you said three, six, nine months, a year, maybe even two years, I don't know, whatever it is, I don't know how you make that decision. But actually, I think it's kind of the wrong question.

Speaker 1 It's not a very fruitful question. The more fruitful question in my view is, what do I need to be doing specifically to maximize my chances of breaking into this field?

Speaker 1 And that always comes down to a handful of things. Investing in yourself, you're already doing that.
You're getting certs.

Speaker 1 You know better than I do what else you need to do to educate yourself, level up in your skills, have something valuable to offer employers, have a great story to tell. That's just the obvious stuff.

Speaker 1 Second, relationships.

Speaker 1 You know, I'm about to say, sixminutnetworking.com, if you're not taking your relationships in the cybersecurity world as seriously as your certs, you're not really doing everything you can to break in and your education will only take you so far.

Speaker 1 A lot of people think of networking as something that helps their job search. Networking is the job search.

Speaker 1 The people you meet, the people you help, the ones who identify with you and want to see you succeed, they are the ones who are going to open doors for you, help you prep, give you advice, fill in any gaps you have.

Speaker 1 I would literally ask the people you connect with, whether it's a peer or your cert instructor or a hiring manager who turns you down. I would literally say, what would you do if you were me?

Speaker 1 What's the most helpful thing I could be doing? Then take their advice, actually take their advice. So this relationships piece, it is crucial.
I hear this all the time. It's funny, Gabriel.

Speaker 1 The other day, I was like, hey, are you doing the six-minute networking stuff? I was talking to a show fan and he goes, nope, I have a job in the art world that I'm satisfied with right now.

Speaker 1 And I was like, yeah, that's fine. You don't control whether you keep that job and you don't think that your connections inside the art field matter.
I'm so confused. Here's the thing.

Speaker 1 I'm going to hear from that guy in a year and he's going to go, oh my God, they laid off everything or my company closed and I have absolutely zero contacts and now I'm starting from square one.

Speaker 1 And I'm like, well, yeah, that's kind of what it means to dig the well before you're thirsty and you didn't do that and now you're dying of thirst.

Speaker 1 Well, sixminutenetworking.com, the same thing I told you two years ago. Anyway, there's a handful of qualities you need to cultivate while you try to break into an industry.

Speaker 1 I already talked about patience. Consistency is another one.
Optimism is another one. Excitement, curiosity.

Speaker 1 Frankly, the ability to handle rejection and survive, taking care of yourself along the way, mentally, emotionally, physically.

Speaker 1 I would really encourage you to focus on all that rather than going like, oh, okay, how long do I give this job search thing?

Speaker 1 Because first of all, you're going to know if you get to a point where it's wise to pivot to a new plan. Deciding now when that date is, I don't know how much it's going to do for you.

Speaker 2 If anything, it might mentally let you off the hook if you know that there's only so long you have to deal with this frustration.

Speaker 1 Good point. And actually, maybe that's why she's asking that question because she wants to time box the stress and heartache.
I understand that impulse.

Speaker 1 But to that, I say, remember that third bucket I just talked about, cultivating those qualities. That's how you cope with the difficulty of a job search like this without giving up too soon.

Speaker 2 And if you ever do get to a point where you decide, okay, maybe it's time to let go of the cybersecurity dream, you're going to want to know that you really did everything you could to break in before you decided that.

Speaker 1 Yes. Otherwise, it's going to eat away at you.
So that's another reason to focus on what you have to do right now rather than on how long you have to do it.

Speaker 2 Excellent advice, Jordan. I'm also just remembering how much she has writing on this career transition, right?

Speaker 2 She wants to escape her current field because it's repetitive and it's no longer challenging. She wants to be more fulfilled in her career, which I totally get.

Speaker 2 But this is also her and her partner's way of moving to this big city and moving to Melbourne is how they get to have the support that they feel they need to raise kids one day.

Speaker 1 Yeah, the stakes are very high for her.

Speaker 2 Very high. And I wonder if she needs to maybe keep an eye on that because it can make a job search like this very taxing, which might also be making her go, man, how long should I put up with this?

Speaker 2 It's interesting. I've been working on this really big rewrite of a movie that I have been working on for like five and a half years at this point.

Speaker 2 Brutal. And a new actor is coming on board, or I should say, is expressing strong interest in coming on board.
Nothing is guaranteed. And this actor had some big notes.

Speaker 2 So I'm having to do some pretty significant work on the script to like beef up her role and just make the movie better and better.

Speaker 2 And when the director and I started working on this about a month ago, I felt so overwhelmed, almost paralyzed, because it's like, man, there is so much writing on this rewrite.

Speaker 2 If we nail it, if we somehow check all these boxes that she wants, which is a hard target to hit, she says yes, and we're off to the races and my screenwriting career, blah, blah, blah, money this, credit that, exciting adventure that I get to have.

Speaker 2 And if we don't do that, then maybe this actor says thanks, but no thanks, and she's out. And then where are we then? So every time I sat down on my computer, I would have those thoughts in my head.

Speaker 2 And that just makes it exhausting and stressful. And it was not making me do my best work.
I actually noticed that I was coming at this rewrite from a place of fear.

Speaker 2 What's going to happen if I don't do this the right way, whatever that means, as opposed to, you know, joy and curiosity and most importantly, good ideas, like how good can I make this script with her input?

Speaker 1 Yeah, because all you're thinking about is what you're going to lose if you don't succeed.

Speaker 2 Exactly. So I had to do something that I've never really done before, which was I just had to put that thought out of my mind while I worked.

Speaker 2 Or actually, to be more precise, you can't really get rid of a thought like that, right? You can just like stuff it down, which just makes it stronger.

Speaker 2 I just kind of allowed it to be there, but to be there alongside these other more helpful thoughts, like, what can I do to make this scene better?

Speaker 2 What can I do today that would make the script funnier? How can I work in this specific idea from her notes or whatever it was?

Speaker 2 I'm also trying not to indulge the part of my brain that is going, man, how amazing would it be if I knocked this out of the park and she said yes and we were golden because that's a fantasy.

Speaker 2 Again, nothing is guaranteed, especially in this stupid business. So I would also encourage you to find your version of that with this job search.

Speaker 2 You almost have to pretend for a little while that your happiness and your fulfillment and your ability to have kids are not writing on this job search because actually, in a way, they aren't.

Speaker 2 There are always other ways of achieving those things if you really wanted them.

Speaker 2 But even if they are writing on this job search, That thought is not going to make it easier for you to keep applying, to keep smiling on Zoom for interviews, to keep studying for your certs.

Speaker 2 It's probably just going to be overwhelming.

Speaker 1 Unless she channels it into that joy and enthusiasm you were just talking about.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but then it's just about showing up and doing the work because she's lit up about cybersecurity, which is all she really needs right now.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I totally agree with this take. We all want things.
We all have a lot riding on getting those things. How can we not?

Speaker 1 Why else would you do anything? But you're right. You have to be very disciplined about what you think about when you're fighting for something.

Speaker 1 And all those f that go into thinking about what you stand to gain or what you stand to lose, you need those fucks just to do the thing that's in front of you.

Speaker 1 The application, the class, the phone call, the workout to cope with the stress of applying.

Speaker 1 So that's my hope for you, that you work your butt off to get this break, that you work your butt off for the things that are going to move the needle.

Speaker 1 I promise you, you do that, everything else will take care of itself. You've got this.
We're rooting for you. And good luck.

Speaker 1 Go back and check out Ryan Holiday and our skeptical Sunday on Kratom if you haven't done so yet. Show notes and transcripts on the website as usual.

Speaker 1 Advertisers, deals, discount codes, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram.
You can also connect with me on LinkedIn.

Speaker 1 You can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One.

Speaker 1 My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tata Sedlowskis, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own.
I might be a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer.

Speaker 1 Consult a professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Jaron Lanier.
Remember, we rise by lifting lifting others. Share the show with those you love.

Speaker 1 If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today.

Speaker 1 In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time.

Speaker 1 What if the person charming your lonely aunt isn't after love, but her home, her will, and her life savings?

Speaker 1 In this preview, Javier Leva reveals how modern romance scams have evolved into full-blown identity takeovers hiding in plain sight.

Speaker 7 A lot of con artists, they are very generous at first. They're the types of people that are going to pick up the tab when you go to dinner.
They're buying you stuff. They're very generous.

Speaker 7 And they're doing that. It's almost like they're fattening you up for when they need that favor.

Speaker 7 When they need that favor, when they need that loan, you wouldn't question it because this guy is so generous. Why wouldn't I trust him with money?

Speaker 7 From a distance, we're thinking about these romance games like, how could anybody fall for these things, right?

Speaker 7 But the closer you look into it and put yourself in in the shoes of the victim, you realize that when you're in the center of the cyclone, it all makes a lot more sense.

Speaker 7 Another thing is when somebody smothers you and just consumes all of your time, that's a warning sign too, because what they're doing is that they're cutting you off from your surroundings.

Speaker 7 They create the urgency so that you could make stupid decisions and you kind of bypass your reasoning. Don't forget your friends and don't forget your family.

Speaker 7 Their opinion counts and you should take it. Honestly, when you start seeing all these signs, you recognize that maybe this is a situation where you got to create personal space.

Speaker 7 You have to create boundaries.

Speaker 7 Most victims of anti con artists, they feel so ashamed that they don't want to tell their story because they've been violated their trust and they're no longer trusting people.

Speaker 1 To hear how predators turn affection into control, listen to episode 1195 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.

Speaker 1 Hear that?

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Speaker 11 This isn't just a game, it's a once-in-a-generation event.

Speaker 12 The Harlem Globetrotters 100-year tour.

Speaker 11 Celebrate 100 years of high-flying dunks, 100 years of show-stopping moves, and 100 years of changing the game.

Speaker 7 Bring the whole family and be part of the legacy.

Speaker 11 This game is once in a century.

Speaker 12 Be there at Chase Center on January 18th. Go to HarlemGlobetrotters.com for your tickets to the 100-year tour.