The Knife: Off Record – 118

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Speaker 17 Welcome to The Knife Off Record.

Speaker 1 I'm Patia Eaton. I'm Hannah Smith.
Before we get into this episode, real quick, if you are enjoying the show, first of all, thank you for listening.

Speaker 1 But would you do us a favor and go and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen? It really does help us so much. We're a new show and we're still trying to get the word out.

Speaker 1 So if you like what we're doing, it would just mean a lot to us. Thank you so much for your support.

Speaker 1 If you really want to go above and beyond, you could send your favorite episode to a friend if you think they would like it. Thanks again.

Speaker 17 Yeah. And you can also follow us on Instagram where we post clips.
And when we can, we respond to questions and like to update listeners.

Speaker 17 So make sure you follow at the Knife podcast on Instagram and Blue Sky. You can also send us an email at the knife at exactlyrightmedia.com.

Speaker 17 This week we have a collaboration with Mandy and Melissa from Moms and Mysteries.

Speaker 17 Moms and Mysteries, formerly known as Moms and Murder, is a true crime podcast hosted by Mandy and Melissa, two friends who do deep dives into into a new case each week.

Speaker 17 It's conversational in tone and heavy on levity. You'll really enjoy their original takes on both well-known cases and lesser-known true crime stories.

Speaker 1 We had such a good time doing this episode with them. They are pros.
They've been making their podcasts for over eight years now, which is amazing. And Melissa has another podcast I want to shout out.

Speaker 1 She launched it in 2021. It's called Criminality, and they dive into the true crimes of reality stars, which sounds really interesting.

Speaker 17 We could definitely get into that. Yes.

Speaker 1 So in this episode, we are going to bring you two crime stories. Patia and I brought a crime story, and Mandy and Melissa also brought one.

Speaker 1 Patia and I cover the murder of Richard Chalin, and Mandy and Melissa talk about the barefoot bandit. They're really different stories, but both pretty fascinating.

Speaker 1 And again, we just loved meeting Mandy and Melissa. So let's get into the episode.

Speaker 1 All right. So the story that we have today is the story of Sally Chalin.
I'm going to start the story in 2010.

Speaker 1 Sally, whose real name is Georgina, by the way, but she goes by Sally, and Richard Chalin had been married for 31 years. They had two sons who are both grown, both in their 20s.

Speaker 1 In 2010, Sally was 56 years old and Richard was 61. They lived in Surrey, England, which is southwest of London.
And about a year prior in 2009, Sally had actually moved out of their family home.

Speaker 1 Their youngest son, David, was living with Sally and their oldest son was living on his own.

Speaker 1 So Richard was the only one living in the house that they, you know, had lived in for years and raised their sons in.

Speaker 1 And the reason for this was that they were going to get divorced, but they actually had, they were actually in the midst of reconciling so on the morning of August 10th 2010 2010 Sally went over to their family home where Richard was living with the idea that they were gonna spend the day cleaning out the garage getting ready to sell the house and one of the ideas they had was they were gonna use some of this money from the house sale to go on a trip to Australia together but before they started cleaning out the house uh they wanted to make breakfast so sally actually left went to the store to go buy bacon and eggs to make breakfast.

Speaker 1 She would later say that she had the suspicion that Richard told her to go to the store to buy these ingredients to try to get her out of the house. And she was suspicious about this.

Speaker 1 So when she got back, she checked his phone and it showed a phone call between Richard and this woman, Susan Wilkie.

Speaker 1 This was a person that Sally was already suspicious of that she had googled the day before.

Speaker 1 And it turns out Richard had met this woman, Susan Wilkie, on a social networking website called Dinner Dates.

Speaker 1 And when Sally asked Richard about this, he responded with, don't question me. So Sally made breakfast.
Richard sat down at the table to eat this breakfast.

Speaker 1 And when he did, Sally took a hammer from her purse. and hit him over the head more than 20 times until he was almost dead.
She then stuffed a tea towel into his mouth to make sure he was dead.

Speaker 1 She wrapped his body in some old curtains and wrote a note and left the note on his body that read, I love you, Sally. And then she left.
She went back to the house where she was living.

Speaker 1 The next morning, she got up. She drove her 23-year-old son David to work.

Speaker 1 And then she left Surrey and drove 75 miles south to Beachy Head in East Sussex, England, which is on the southern coast and has these massive cliffs that overlook the ocean.

Speaker 1 It's beautiful from pictures I looked at online, but sadly, it's also a very common place for people to go and end their life by jumping off the cliffs.

Speaker 1 And actually, in 2010, the Wall Street Journal listed it as one of the, among the top three most common suicide spots in the world.

Speaker 1 And if you go there, there are signs with phone numbers, with the phone number to the Samaritans, which is a charity aimed at providing emotional support to people and they're available 24-7.

Speaker 1 And the local community and the police are also aware of this. So they're sort of on the lookout for people that might be trying to do this.

Speaker 1 Reportedly, Sally called her cousin and confessed to killing Richard. and said she planned to jump from the cliffs.

Speaker 1 But the police were called and it took three hours of them talking to her to convince her to come away from the ledge. And she was taken into custody and charged with the murder of Richard Chalin.

Speaker 1 The police discovered his body around 1 p.m. on Sunday, which was the next day.
And a post-mortem exam that was conducted determined his cause of death to be severe blunt trauma to the head.

Speaker 17 So Sally immediately admits to having killed Richard. And so she's taken into custody at that point.
And this is August of 2010. And so during her time in custody, she is

Speaker 17 assessed by two different psychologists, forensic psychologists. And the first one of those, he

Speaker 17 will get into her trial, but he said that he did not conclude that Sally had been suffering from any mental disorders or personality disorders.

Speaker 17 Then a second forensic psychologist also assessed Sally, and his conclusion was different. He said that he believed she was suffering from a depressive disorder.

Speaker 17 He also noted that Sally told him about sexual and physical abuse by Richard that included that Richard would rape her as a form of punishment, and that she hoped that when he did this, it would sort of make him happy and make him love her.

Speaker 17 And she's a woman in distress. So this trial takes place in June of 2011.
And the trial takes place over seven days.

Speaker 17 And during her trial, Sally is portrayed by the Crown as constantly checking Richard's phone and email, being jealous and possessive, and having said at one point, if I can't have him, then no one can.

Speaker 17 And the jury was also told that Sally had been stalking Richard online, spying on him, listening to his voicemails.

Speaker 17 It was really a picture of a scorned lover, a woman who refused to move on from her failed failed marriage.

Speaker 17 And Sally's defense relied partially on something called diminished responsibility, which means, yes, she's saying that she killed him, but her responsibility for killing him cannot be murder because she was experiencing things in the marriage that were taking away her capacity to think clearly.

Speaker 17 So Sally's defense during her trial is saying, you know, is introducing this concept of diminished responsibility.

Speaker 17 They're basically asserting that although Sally broke the law by killing Richard, her mental capacity was impaired, and this ought to protect her from full criminal responsibility.

Speaker 17 And the goal here is

Speaker 17 that Sally doesn't end up with a murder conviction, but instead manslaughter, because manslaughter carries a much lighter sentence and they felt it was appropriate given what she experienced during her marriage to Richard.

Speaker 17 Unfortunately, Sally is convicted by a unanimous jury in June 2011 after only 11 hours, and they convict her of murder. So she appeals her conviction, but it was upheld.

Speaker 17 The only thing that comes her way is that her sentence is reduced from a minimum of 22 years to a minimum of 19 years served.

Speaker 17 And the entire time that this is going on, ever since Sally is charged at all, she has the support of her family and

Speaker 17 other people who are standing in solidarity with Sally as a victim of domestic abuse.

Speaker 17 But, you know, we've learned so much about domestic abuse since 2010 and have so much more language around what that can really mean.

Speaker 17 And so as her legal team is preparing for another appeal, this whole other picture of Sally's marriage begins to emerge.

Speaker 1 Through interviews with her attorney, she starts to sort of open up and we learn about like what was actually going on inside their marriage. And, you know, it goes all the way back to the beginning.

Speaker 1 And actually,

Speaker 1 Sally was only 15 years old when they first met and Richard was 22, you know, so she was still basically a child. Baby, yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And there basic, there's accounts that, you know, he was controlling like pretty much right off the bat he would control like how she acted and wanted to control sort of like who she talked to and she was still in school but she would stop by his apartment after school to clean and cook for him oh my gosh you know this was like i think this was like 1970 or something um so definitely different times but still pretty alarming and she got pregnant at 17 and ended up having a late-term abortion.

Speaker 1 Her older brothers brought her to have this done. And they then confronted Richard about this, you know, as like protective older brothers.

Speaker 1 And he supposedly said, like kind of like shrugged it off and said, it could have been anybody's like baby. Oh, gosh.

Speaker 1 She also told her attorney that around this time, like around like age 17-ish, she confronted Richard because she found out that he was still like sleeping with other women and he dragged her down the stairs and threw her out of the apartment.

Speaker 1 She said that she was basically afraid from then till throughout their whole relationship of like confronting him or pushing too hard in case he might react physically again like that.

Speaker 1 They ended up getting married.

Speaker 1 Her mom, Sally's mom never liked him, didn't want them to get married, but people say like she just like really like seemed to love him and always hoped that things would get better.

Speaker 1 He was really into cars. He He would end up going on to start a car dealership and was very successful and like, like made pretty good money.

Speaker 1 Their home, their family home in Surrey in 2010 was estimated to be worth about 1 million pounds. But, you know, things didn't quite, you know, things didn't get better.

Speaker 1 Neighbors and friends would later say that he would often criticize her in public and like in social settings, often commenting on her weight.

Speaker 1 You know, that she was, she did all the cooking, all the cleaning, took care of all the household stuff for them while he worked so she was mostly a homemaker while the kids were little but then when their youngest turned 13 she went and got an admin job but then her husband richard then required her to use her salary that she got from her job to pay for all of the household expenses and he kind of kept his money for himself and he would buy himself expensive cars and watches and go to grand pre events.

Speaker 1 Their youngest son, David, ever since his mom, you know, was arrested and charged, has become an advocate for his mother's release.

Speaker 1 And he recently wrote a book called The Unthinkable, A Story of Control, Violence, and My Mother.

Speaker 1 And he talks a lot about what he observed of his parents growing up.

Speaker 1 He talked about his dad being this sort of like looming. presence and he he he really he watched as his dad would criticize his mother and come home and just criticize like the food that she cooked.

Speaker 1 He said that beyond that, his dad was very controlling, like very controlling of things like the television.

Speaker 1 Even when he was gone all day at work, he didn't want his mom or the boys watching TV because he said it would like diminish the life of the television. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 18 What?

Speaker 18 That's like taking, you know, you always hear about like dad things, you know, like they always want you to shut off the lights or they always want you to do this, but like not watching TV because you're scared that it's going to diminish the life of the TV is a new extreme of just dad-ism.

Speaker 1 Totally. Yeah.
Totally different than like, shut the door, don't air condition the whole neighborhood. Right.
I've heard that before. Classically.

Speaker 1 But yeah, it was just like this like pattern of him being incredibly controlling. And he also controlled who Sally could be friends with.
So one time she was like cooking in the kitchen.

Speaker 1 She was going to host a new friend that she'd met. And Richard didn't like this.

Speaker 1 So he just like threw the food across the room and and said well i guess you can't have her over anymore so there's definitely a pattern of him controlling her isolating her not wanting her to have friends and then it sounds like he also was continually having affairs like that happened when they first met and it sounds like it never really stopped certain times sally seemed to sort of be believing him and other times she would question him Their son David remembers when he was around 18 that he found out about some affairs his dad was having and he even confronted his dad.

Speaker 1 And he said, his dad just would never hear any of it. He wasn't receptive to anyone else's feedback.

Speaker 1 And over and over, anytime Sally would question him about something in their marriage, he would say the same thing.

Speaker 1 He would say, don't question me, which is interesting because that's like the last thing he said to her. Yeah.
You know, before she killed him.

Speaker 1 In 2004, Richard and Sally, they went to Australia for a family's wedding. Richard's brother lived there with his sister-in-law.

Speaker 1 And even his family remembers seeing him interact with Sally and thinking that something was wrong. They didn't like the way he was treating her.

Speaker 1 Reportedly, he just only wanted to dance with all the young women at the wedding and wouldn't dance with Sally. Seemed to be like, just to, just to embarrass her or something.

Speaker 1 And Richard's sister-in-law spoke with her at that time and asked her how things were going. And she said, she told her, if I left Richard, he would make my life hell.

Speaker 1 He was also charged with fraud in 2006. He owned a Ferrari, which cost him 92,000 pounds.
And he had taken it to an F1 track in Belgium and wrecked it.

Speaker 1 And instead of reporting it, he shipped it back to Surrey and tried to make an insurance claim saying that it was hit by a truck. So that's wild.
But they like figured out what was going on.

Speaker 1 He was charged with fraud. By 2009, Sally, you know, her sons were older and her son David specifically was very like supportive of her trying to get out of this marriage.

Speaker 1 She had finally left Richard. She had a small amount of family inheritance, which she used to buy a small house a few blocks away.
And, you know, she had finally done it.

Speaker 1 I mean, she was in her 50s at this point and she had started dating him when she was 15 years old. So that's like.

Speaker 1 you know, her whole life, basically. Yeah.
And according to her friends and family, it just was really difficult. She couldn't really figure out how to do things without him.
She was distraught.

Speaker 1 And soon she was hoping to get back together with him.

Speaker 1 Richard, on the other hand, I think used this as a way to manipulate her further and said that he would start to reconcile with her only under the circumstances that she agreed to get legally divorced.

Speaker 1 He wanted to give her 200,000 pounds, which would be far less than she would actually be entitled to.

Speaker 1 And she had to agree in writing that when they went out in public she wouldn't talk with strangers and she would never interrupt him when he talked

Speaker 1 i hate this guy yeah

Speaker 1 so she you know agreed to it but she was also

Speaker 1 suspicious that maybe he was just using this as an excuse to get legally divorced from her and keep most of their assets under the guise that they were going to reconcile.

Speaker 1 So that was sort of the situation leading up to that day in August of 2010.

Speaker 1 Her divorce attorney said that she had started and then stopped divorce proceedings 13 times so there was a lot of just like indecision and she had become obsessed with trying to find out if he was still cheating on her um you know it sounds like she was hoping that he had changed but also wondering if he was just still doing the same thing

Speaker 19 mic check one two

Speaker 1 Are we recording?

Speaker 19 Hi, I'm Michelle Bernstein, an award-winning chef, restaurateur, and mom. I have a lot on my plate, including my psoriatic arthritis symptoms.
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Speaker 10 Some were fatal.

Speaker 11 Tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms like fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches, or cough. Add a vaccine or plan to, or if inflammatory bowel disease symptoms develop or worsen.

Speaker 7 Serious allergic reactions and severe eczema-like skin reactions may occur.

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Speaker 19 Ask your rheumatologist about COSENTIX.

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Speaker 17 As Sally dives deeper into what was going on in her marriage with her legal team through this appeals process, it becomes clear the extent of the abuse that she was experiencing.

Speaker 17 And so in February 2019, which, you know, she was convicted of murder back in June of 2011. She's been imprisoned this entire time.

Speaker 17 In February of 2019, she has a new legal team, and it consists of her solicitor, whose name is Harriet Wistrick, and she's actually the director of the Center for Women's Justice in the UK.

Speaker 17 Their mission is to hold the state accountable and challenge discrimination in the justice system around male violence against women and girls.

Speaker 17 She also has a woman named Claire Wade on her side, who is her trial attorney, and her practice really dives into murder, manslaughter, sexual offenses, and serious violence in the context of domestic homicide.

Speaker 17 So these two attorneys team up for Sally's defense and they get her appeal seen by a three-judge panel.

Speaker 17 And part of what comes out during that appeal is that there's this new term called coercive control that has come to light.

Speaker 17 And it really speaks to honing in on why sally had that diminished responsibility that her defense said she had way back in 2011.

Speaker 17 And there's an American professor named Evan Stark who never assessed Sally personally, but can really speak to this term of course of control. So he actually spoke during her appeal.

Speaker 17 And he is quoted as saying that course of control was designed to subjugate and dominate, not merely to hurt.

Speaker 17 It achieves compliance by making victims afraid, depriving them of their rights, resources, and liberties, without which they cannot defend themselves, escape, refuse demands, or resist.

Speaker 17 It produces a hostage-like condition of entrapment. And at the time of her trial, he says it was not widely understood.

Speaker 17 So these judges, you know, are going to determine if she's going to spend another 10 plus years in prison. And outside the courthouse, there's people holding signs, Free Sally.

Speaker 17 Her sons are still there standing by her side. You know, as Hannah mentioned, people who were on Richard's side of the family had even witnessed the abuse.
After this appeals process, Sally wins.

Speaker 17 And the Crown that had initially convicted her wanted a retrial.

Speaker 1 They didn't get it.

Speaker 17 She is, her, her

Speaker 17 charge was reduced from murder to manslaughter. And so she was released because she had already served that time.

Speaker 17 Her manslaughter sentence would have been over nine years, which she had already then served. And so she was released.

Speaker 17 And her son, who Hannah mentioned, said it was just an incredible experience to watch his mom walk out a free woman and for people to understand that she wasn't this, you know, cruel murderer.

Speaker 17 She was a woman who was experiencing coercive control and didn't know a way out.

Speaker 17 And I think also learning so much about her history and this being her first relationship from when she's 15, it's like that, I mean, you don't know anything else.

Speaker 17 I can see why she filed so many times and then tried to reconcile. It's like your whole self-worth is tied up in this person because you don't know anything different.

Speaker 1 She's only been an adult with him. That's her whole adult life.

Speaker 1 But it makes me think of like, you do hear those relationships like 20-something, 15, and you have to wonder like how much of that is because, I mean, obviously there's laws against it, but how much of that is because they are just looking for someone to be able to control and manipulate, even if that doesn't seem like their intention.

Speaker 1 Like there's really no reason a 22-year-old and a 15-year-old should be getting together. That's, again, a baby.
Like, that's just a person starting their life. So totally real.

Speaker 17 And it's unreal. And in the wake of her appeal, this term coercive control, they're realizing, okay, this applies to the case of these other women who are imprisoned on these murder charges

Speaker 17 because we didn't have an understanding of domestic abuse and coercive control, like, you know, at the time of their trial, like we do right now.

Speaker 17 And so there were successful appeals following Sally's successful appeal because of this sort of ability to convey to the judges what she was actually experiencing.

Speaker 1 Oh, wow. That's amazing.

Speaker 18 That is such a wild story. Not one that I can personally relate to.
I only can relate to the part of the story of meeting your spouse very young. I was 17 when I met my husband.

Speaker 18 We're actually about to celebrate our 20-year togetherness anniversary next week. But I relate to the feeling of just like not knowing any other,

Speaker 18 anything different. You know, whenever you don't know, you don't know.

Speaker 18 Even if you know that you don't want to be in the situation you're in, it's really scary to think about leaving that situation and going off into something that you don't even know.

Speaker 18 You know, at least the devil you know is better than the one you don't or whatever the phrase is. You know, you kind of know what you're into with what you've been used to.

Speaker 18 But if you leave and go off on your own, you don't know really what you're getting into.

Speaker 18 So, you can see how that would be really scary for someone who got into that type of relationship when they were only 15 years old. It's just really hard.

Speaker 17 Well, especially like living under this threat, like he's going to make her life hell if she divorces him. And it's like, okay, well, what does that mean?

Speaker 17 Because my life was already so terrible with you.

Speaker 1 Like, right.

Speaker 17 So scary. How could it be worse?

Speaker 1 Absolutely. Yeah.
So this week's story feels a little like a movie. Like, if we told you this was a Netflix plot line, you'd probably believe us, but you'd still be like, well, maybe,

Speaker 1 maybe not. I'm not sure.
So, we're talking about this lanky teenager from a small island town who escapes from a halfway house and goes on the run, but not just any run.

Speaker 1 This kid steals cars, he breaks into homes, he hacks computers, he flies actual airplanes that he taught himself how to fly, and he learned all of this on YouTube. And he does it all.

Speaker 1 This part is unfortunate, barefoot. Have you guys? Melissa hates that part.

Speaker 1 I don't care how good his feet are, anybody's feet. I don't want to see them.
But have you guys heard of Colton Harris Moore, the barefoot bandit? I have not. Oh, this is such a treat.

Speaker 1 I'm so excited to be bringing this to you. What a big day for us.
So Colton Harris Moore, he is six foot five, 200 pounds.

Speaker 1 By the time he reaches his full internet legend status, so he is someone that lives in the woods. He's slipped through police traps.

Speaker 1 He's somehow captured the imagination of thousands of people who were rooting for him online. Think like Luigi that we just had going through the news, like Mangione.

Speaker 1 With that kind of a hype, though, and people following his story, like when Facebook was still kind of early days and stuff, but as wild and as meme-worthy as his case is, it's also sad and messy because he wasn't some kind of anti-hero or anything.

Speaker 1 He was just a teenager who has been failed by really every system in his life.

Speaker 18 Yeah. So Colton was born in 1991 and he grew up in Kameno Island, Washington.
So this is a very tight-knit island with only about 1,500 residents.

Speaker 18 So you're thinking like, it's in Washington, woodsy, quiet. This is the kind of place that you really want to escape to or get away to, not the kind of place that you're usually running away from.

Speaker 18 But as we said, Colton didn't really have the peaceful small town life that, you know, you would expect a child growing up in this area to have.

Speaker 18 His dad left when he was just around two or three years old and was in and out of his life until he finally disappeared for good. And his mom struggled with addiction and mental health issues.

Speaker 18 She reportedly would let Colton just kind of come and go as he pleased. And that was even during the height of his crime spree.
You know, she was still allowing him, you know, free access to.

Speaker 1 her home.

Speaker 1 She would straight up be like, my son was hungry and he came over. And what do you want me to do, not feed them? When the police are like, you're aiding in abetting, you know, a criminal.

Speaker 1 She's She's like, right. My son's hungry.
I'm going to feed him. So she did not, she was not to be messed with in this entire story.

Speaker 18 No. So by the time Colton was seven, he had already been arrested, seven years old, which is heartbreaking.
And also like,

Speaker 18 what happened? Right. I'm sure that's probably what everyone's thinking.
What would a seven-year-old possibly do?

Speaker 18 Well, he didn't hurt anyone, but he would sneak into vacation homes, literally looking for food and shelter, though.

Speaker 18 So like you have this little kid that's breaking and entering into vacation homes because he's hungry and he wants a place to rest.

Speaker 18 So his behavior though did escalate over time, not necessarily because he was a bad person, but literally it was a means of survival for him.

Speaker 18 And eventually he did end up in a juvenile detention center and then a halfway house. And that's where things really took a sharp turn for him.

Speaker 1 So it was just days before his 17th birthday that Colton escaped the halfway house, Not in like a chaotic middle of the night, you know, running through and slow motion kind of thing, but more like a very carefully planned out route through the woods that he knew all of the woods.

Speaker 1 Like he literally grew up there and in there. He was someone who lived in the woods a lot.
And from there, he launched one of the most bizarre and infamous two-year crime sprees we have ever seen.

Speaker 1 He knows the woods, like I was saying, better than anyone. He would build a camp.
He would stash his supplies. He'd even set out little hideouts near the houses that he was targeting.

Speaker 1 And police would like randomly stumble into his camps and think they're close to getting him. But within hours, he realizes they've seen it and he's off to a new place.

Speaker 1 One thing I read was like, during this time he was in the woods, he was like a mile away from his mom. Like he was in a very small area and they could not catch this kid at all.

Speaker 1 But it went further, not just breaking in, you know, stealing food and stuff.

Speaker 1 Locals start noticing strange things like their credit cards are being used online to buy things like bear spray or computer hacking software or GPS tools and of course porn.

Speaker 1 He wasn't just stealing random things. He was literally studying, researching, and upgrading his gear.

Speaker 1 In one particularly bold move, he broke into a police station, disabled their alarm system, and was able to make out with a few things. And another time he broke into a fire station.

Speaker 1 Here's where I say he's kind of pretty smart. Install an infrared camera.
That way he could scan houses to make sure no one was in the house before he would break in.

Speaker 1 That way, you know, he's just going in, getting what he needs and he's leaving.

Speaker 18 Smart. for thinking of having like thermal imaging before you break into someone's home, just to make sure they're not there.
I appreciate that

Speaker 18 very much for his safety and the homeowner as well. But also not really smart to get one from a fire station.

Speaker 1 Did it just fine work? I can only imagine how law enforcement felt.

Speaker 17 Like, he's breaking into our facilities and we cannot catch him.

Speaker 1 It's got to be embarrassing.

Speaker 18 But to use our equipment against us, basically, like to use, you know, like it's, it's all just completely bizarre to even think that a teenager like was responsible for this whole thing.

Speaker 1 Can I ask a question real quick? Sure. So you had mentioned like, okay, so he's using credit cards.

Speaker 1 I'm guessing that's because he was breaking into people's homes and maybe like taking their wallet or something. And you had mentioned that he was also buying porn.

Speaker 1 Did he have, like, what was his connectivity as far as did he have like internet access? Did he have a phone? He had a laptop. Okay.
I don't remember if he had a phone, but he did have a laptop.

Speaker 1 Like, as the story goes on, he literally will post pictures of himself on Facebook laying in the woods and everyone's trying to figure out. where he is.

Speaker 1 I mean, and you'll hear more about the credit card thing in a minute. It's It's probably my favorite part of the story.

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Speaker 18 So eventually, by the time he was, you know, in his teen years, he now has found a partner in crime for some of his crime adventures. And this was a friend of his named Harley.

Speaker 18 So the two of them started breaking into vacation homes together.

Speaker 18 And Harley later said that he was mostly just in it for the cash, but Colton was always looking for other things, as Melissa was saying, laptops, credit cards, anything, any tool or anything that he could get his hands on that might help him stay one step ahead of the authorities.

Speaker 18 They would even find keys to cars and they would go take these cars on joyrides.

Speaker 1 So Grand Theft Auto now, they're just all the crimes stacking up but in a weird twist of conscience or maybe chaos they would sometimes return the car full of gas cleaned and park it back in the joy you imagine coming home and thinking someone's messed with my car but i have a full tank of gas and they cleaned it i don't know that i would call the police i'd be like this was the you know the car angel car cleaning fairy visited me

Speaker 17 one of these owners of a vacation home this is like the lore of the island and i want her to break in

Speaker 1 Right. I want you to break in.
Right. No kidding.

Speaker 18 So it was around this time that residents started calling Colton Teen Houdini, which I feel like is very apt considering that they really could not find him.

Speaker 18 And he would appear and disappear and just continue to confuse law enforcement every step of the way.

Speaker 18 So as word spread about this barefoot bandit teen genius that was just slipping through the cracks and, you know, was not able to be captured, that was how kind of this legend was born.

Speaker 18 And there were really early YouTube videos about it. Facebook fan groups started popping up.

Speaker 18 There were even people making and selling t-shirts with his name or, you know, barefoot bandit, like some funny, like it was just a big

Speaker 18 joke, but it really wasn't a joke. So that's where it's like very ironic.

Speaker 1 So the barefoot thing, though, he was doing this all the time in the woods, everywhere. I don't know that it was necessarily he didn't like shoes or he liked his feet or he had a thing with feet.

Speaker 1 I don't know, but it was very like obvious everywhere he went because they would see his footprints.

Speaker 1 One time he even pours, I think, flour somewhere like on the ground and walks through it so they could see it. Like he was leaving his calling card everywhere.

Speaker 1 And unfortunately, his calling card, his feet. I can't.
Yuck. I know.
It's just a bunch of people.

Speaker 17 After all of the links that he went to.

Speaker 1 I know, I know. But he really, he, the thing with him is he really does think he's smarter than everyone.
And in some ways, he is smarter than a lot of people. He, he has like a will, a determination.

Speaker 1 Like he's doing this for himself and he hasn't had a lot, even education. He really hasn't had a whole lot.

Speaker 18 Not hurting anyone. That's the other part about this.
Yeah. Yes.

Speaker 1 And no. And, you know, there's no victims, but they're kind of odd if you think about it.
If somebody brought them to my house and just like that sense of security, you lose that sense of security.

Speaker 1 So in that sense, like, oh, well, I absolutely.

Speaker 18 Yeah. I mean, he's not physically like going out and looking for people to like assault or anything.
So I feel like, of course, of course, this is still wrong and these are still crimes. Absolutely.

Speaker 18 I just mean he's not out.

Speaker 1 He's not

Speaker 1 physically hurting, harming people. Right.

Speaker 18 He's not out there like looking to like actually hurt people.

Speaker 1 And, you know, unless you have

Speaker 1 to take it from you.

Speaker 18 Unless his feet get all over yourself. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Gross. Burn it down.
So at one point, police find one of his recent camps and they spotted something unusual. They found his dog.
And so he very much loved this dog.

Speaker 1 The police decide we're going to take the dog in. And they hoped that it would lure Colton in.
And it did, sort of. Instead of turning himself in, though, would you like to guess what happened?

Speaker 1 Anyone? He stole the dog. Thank you.
He broke in, stole the car.

Speaker 1 I mean, it was his dog. I don't know if it counts stealing.

Speaker 1 But we don't know the original place that he got this dog from, to be honest.

Speaker 1 He stole someone's dog out of the, uh, out of there. This was kind of funny to me.
They called his mom, who he had like a relationship with, but it was obviously very rocky.

Speaker 1 She was like, let me get his dog and they were like absolutely not this dog is part of evidence she's like what it's not evidence but come on she would have been like hey colton here's some eggs and here's your dog she was not gonna stop him or you know not give him his dog so and then they're the planes Colton was obsessed with aviation.

Speaker 1 He could actually identify aircrafts by the sound of their engines as they went over him. He would sit by the airfields and watch them take off and land.

Speaker 1 He would steal credit cards and use them to buy flight manuals online. And if you're like, wait a minute, why is he using credit cards? How is this stuff getting to him?

Speaker 1 He doesn't have an address, right? Right.

Speaker 1 Good question. One time he stole a credit card from a restaurant, got the tracking number, had it sent to the restaurant.

Speaker 1 When he saw that the tracking number said delivered, he broke in and got the book and got back out. So

Speaker 1 he needed the internet as part of this for sure. He taught himself everything.
As I said, he has this manual, these books. He's reading them.

Speaker 1 He's watching thousands of hours on YouTube, which I can't remember how much was even on YouTube at the time. He's doing everything he can to learn about flying, literally anything to become a pilot.

Speaker 1 He wasn't really interested in becoming a pilot at some point in his life. He was literally studying for the moment.

Speaker 18 He could try it for real, which is a great way to, great attitude to have towards flying an airplane.

Speaker 1 I mean, really.

Speaker 1 Why do it later when you could do it now? Not great.

Speaker 18 Right. And lucky for Colton, he didn't have to wait very long.
The opportunity came a lot sooner than he or anyone ever expected.

Speaker 18 In the midst of all these news reports about this kid, he stole his first airplane and promptly crashed it. But somehow YouTube flights didn't survive and he got away.
He slipped away.

Speaker 18 The authorities actually didn't even suspect Colton was behind this plane theft and crashing because literally, why would you think that this kid,

Speaker 18 barefoot bandit you wouldn't put that together and think well maybe he now has stolen an airplane they actually assume that the plane was stolen and crashed by a drug runner um who crashed the plane and took off but one little plane crash though was not going to stop our friend colton he just really kept right going from that point he broke into six different airports just trying to find the right plane I don't know how he was like eeny meeny miney mowing this or something.

Speaker 18 I mean,

Speaker 18 I don't know how he was

Speaker 1 based on how this and he was like looking for a very specific one. I guess he didn't learn to fly a lot of them.
So it should have been millions of hours on YouTube.

Speaker 1 And maybe he could have just had his pick of the litter.

Speaker 18 I wonder if it's like, you know, when you're learning how to drive a car or even when you're purchasing a new vehicle, like I know that I look at driving smaller car differently than driving like a big thing.

Speaker 18 Sometimes I get freaked out if I think about like, could I drive a semi-truck? Like I couldn't do that. Maybe it was the same with the plane.
Maybe he was like, I can't take a passenger.

Speaker 18 I can't take a 737, right? Like I can't drive. He at least knew that much.
He had to find like a small enough plane that he thought he could

Speaker 1 handle, right? Know your limits, you know? Yeah, I imagine these are like

Speaker 1 planes, not commercial Cessna's and stuff. Yeah.
But wouldn't it be great if he did?

Speaker 1 Pretty wild.

Speaker 17 Which there's so many of those little planes up there getting to the islands.

Speaker 1 Right. Exactly.
So he really could just get it. That's true.

Speaker 18 So over the course of this spree, he did find a few different airplanes that suited his fancy.

Speaker 18 He actually stole several and crashed at least four of them, but somehow walked away unscathed every single time.

Speaker 18 Either he's like got nine lives or he's just not flying very high and is a very lucky person. But by now, The internet was bought in.
Everybody was in on this story. Everybody wanted to know more.

Speaker 18 He had thousands of Facebook friends. And as Melissa was saying, he's loving it.
He loves the attention.

Speaker 18 He's posting pictures of himself just laying in the woods, just taunting the police and the authorities that are looking for him, enjoying the fact that people are literally writing songs about him.

Speaker 18 They're using his mugshot and putting it on merch. They're calling him a modern day Robin Hood.

Speaker 18 At one point, a veterinary clinic employee in Raymond, Washington found a $100 bill and a handwritten note that read, I had some extra cash. Please use it for the animals.

Speaker 18 And it was signed, Colton Harris Moore, aka the barefoot bandit. I don't know.
He did seem like he was an animal person. So maybe it was him.
But, you know, sometimes I'm like, people do weird things.

Speaker 1 He had some extra cash. Strangers do weird things.
No, buddy, you stole that. You need the cash.
It is very Robin Hood, I guess, to have done that.

Speaker 18 It is.

Speaker 1 So some people are, of course, rooting for him, but others are exhausted, especially the local police department. I can't imagine having to stand up there and say, we still can't find him.

Speaker 1 And they're like, his feet are on the windows. We still don't know where he is.
Like that has to get old really quick. But of course, Colton's actions weren't completely harmless.

Speaker 1 He did leave people afraid in their own homes, as I was saying before. He broke into government vehicles.
He stole guns.

Speaker 1 Law enforcement across multiple states spent countless hours and resources trying to find him. And he would just keep moving.

Speaker 1 He'd steal a car, drive it until it ran out of gas, and then ditch it and find another one. He actually started hopping islands by boat, avoiding capture again and again.

Speaker 1 Eventually, though, he has an idea. He wants to get to the Bahamas.

Speaker 1 So he is going to drive across the U.S., stealing cars, abandoning them as he, you know, runs out of gas, and then grabbing a new one.

Speaker 1 But finally, in July of 2010, it all comes crashing down, literally. Colton stole one plane.
This one is in Indiana. and flew it all the way down to the Bahamas, which right there, how did you, how?

Speaker 1 I wouldn't even know how if I was up or down if I was flying a plane.

Speaker 18 I want to know how come no air traffic control picked this up and was like why is this random plane not flying at all correctly um going all the way from washington to indiana it's much better it's just indiana

Speaker 17 it's also like you hear that once you become a parent you never sleep through the night again because you just worry about your kids i mean this mom is operating on another planet Absolutely.

Speaker 1 Has to be. Can you imagine? Oh my gosh.
So this time, his flight, believe it or not, he crash lands once again. These are smaller planes.
It's got to be him running out of gas.

Speaker 1 I know at least a few times and like pretty low to the ground. But still, Mandy knows I would die if I just fell out of a plane.
All my bones would break. I would be a medical emergency.

Speaker 1 Like I can barely survive the day. And he's just getting out of crashes over and over again.
But of course, he's not done. He gets to the Bahamas.
He's crashed. Now he's going to get a boat.

Speaker 1 So he takes a boat and he leads the Bahamian authorities on a high speed speed water chase before they finally catch up to him and are like, if you try to drive off, we're going to shoot your boat.

Speaker 1 And so when he tries to do that, they shoot up his boat. He's alive.
He's fine. But he was scared, obviously, at that point.
And police were finally able to capture him.

Speaker 1 And just like that, the barefoot bandit was grounded. Wow.

Speaker 18 Ground it. You're grounded.

Speaker 1 He needed to be grounded a few more times. He did.
Starting at seven.

Speaker 18 The Bohemian authorities extradited him back to the U.S. And once he was back in the U.S., he faced over over 30 charges.

Speaker 18 They ranged from everything, including burglary, to aircraft theft, which apparently is its own separate crime. I didn't not know that, but he was facing multiple years of incarceration.

Speaker 18 And that is, of course, unless he could get himself a great defense attorney. And you bet he did.
So you might know this guy. His name is John Henry Brown.

Speaker 18 And it is the same John Henry Brown who once defended Ted Bundy. So in 2012, Colton pleaded guilty to multiple federal charges and he was sentenced to six and a half years in prison.

Speaker 18 He went on to serve his time, really without any incident, surprisingly, because you would think that the barefoot bandit would like barefoot bandit his way right out of prison as his, you know, last act of

Speaker 18 just like completely

Speaker 1 thought about it.

Speaker 1 Absolutely.

Speaker 18 He definitely thought about it. He definitely thought about it.

Speaker 18 But after his release, his legitimate release in 2016, Colton reportedly went to a halfway house and worked in construction and expressed interest in becoming an aviation mechanic, which definitely makes sense, might be a great career path for him.

Speaker 18 He definitely was persistent and he had.

Speaker 18 at least a little bit of knowledge already going into it. So maybe that would be a good thing for him.

Speaker 18 But now that the media circus has moved on, his story, of course, lingers as one of the weirdest true crime rabbit holes that we've ever been down.

Speaker 18 We actually years ago talked about this story for our Patreon listeners. It's been such a long time ago.
They did a documentary about this.

Speaker 1 It's on Amazon Prime. It's not great, but there's like 48 hours.

Speaker 1 It's like a weirdly animated thing in parts. So many feet.
One time he's just sitting in the plane. I re-watched it and just his foot is up there in the most odd way you could ever put your foot.

Speaker 1 But I'm like, we get it. He's barefoot.
They just couldn't stop. I have a very hard time with the barefoot thing.

Speaker 1 Got to be honest. Too much.
I mean, teenage boy bare feet. Like,

Speaker 1 okay. Yeah.
You, you really brought too much.

Speaker 1 That is way too much. But of course, we know Colton wasn't actually violent, unless you count the aggressiveness.
He portrayed his feet.

Speaker 1 The amount of times I've seen this kid's feet is upsetting and unsettling. But of course, it wasn't.
exactly harmless.

Speaker 1 He was failed by all the adults in his life, really, by the system and by the structures that were supposed to protect him. And he learned to survive on his own.

Speaker 1 And somewhere along the way, survival turns into a spectacle. And thanks to internet hype and media fascination, that spectacle turns into legend, really.

Speaker 1 But behind all the headlines and memes is a boy who really never had a fair shot. Of course, you know, there's a ripple effect of his actions, and it stretches far.

Speaker 1 It's in people's homes, it's in their communities, and in the lives of people who are still dealing with the consequences.

Speaker 1 I will say from that documentary, this is kind of peeling back what I just said, but there's a lady who, I guess Colton had ran through her yard and she took the footprints, made like casings, and tried to sell them on eBay.

Speaker 1 And I want to know if she sold them, but she was like standing up in the documentary with two feet. And I was like, lady, this is too far.
We've gone way too far.

Speaker 1 So yeah, so that's really the story of Colton and his barefoot banded bandit badness. Wow, what a great story.

Speaker 17 And I'm from Washington State and I'd never heard of it.

Speaker 1 Really? Yeah.

Speaker 1 I didn't know this one in real time. I will say.
I'm normally like pretty good on those things. I didn't know this one in real time, but I've been fascinated by it ever since.
Wow.

Speaker 1 It's so interesting. And, you know, you're right.
Like he's breaking into people's home. He is causing some level of damage and fear, but you can really also feel for him.

Speaker 1 Like he was this kid that really never fit into

Speaker 1 society and maybe didn't really have a chance. So then he was like, I'm just going to make my own way and do whatever I want and was clearly, you know, is clearly intelligent in some way.

Speaker 18 He is resourceful. You cannot say that he's not resourceful.
He paid attention and kind of he was always one step ahead. Obviously, he knew what he was doing.

Speaker 18 I mean, and I don't, I genuinely don't believe that he was trying to like harm or scare anyone for sure. I think it was just him just trying to take care of himself and to get by for sure.

Speaker 17 Like, I don't know what the job is, but there's a very specific job out there for Colton.

Speaker 1 Absolutely. Yes.
Yeah. Can you even imagine?

Speaker 1 And when you were saying, Mandy, earlier about the planes being stolen and how that's like a federal offense or whatever, it's so funny because you know there is somebody in the FBI whose job is like plane recovery or something.

Speaker 1 We always run into that and we'll be like some FBI agent in charge of art theft. I'm like, really? But I mean, I guess it does make sense.

Speaker 1 So there's a job for Colton and there's a job for everyone, I guess.

Speaker 1 I had never heard of the barefoot bandit. I hadn't either.
That's good.

Speaker 17 And I'm from the Northwest.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I know.

Speaker 17 and you had somehow that slipped by yeah they did such a good job of telling the story they're so delightful i loved how much he loved his dog i know like anytime someone loves dogs i have to have a little bit of a soft spot for them totally i actually remember when i was adopting my last dog bunker who you you know rip rip um i was at the la city shelter And there was this beautiful dog there.

Speaker 17 This was before we found Bunker. And I asked if I could like meet this dog.
And so my husband and I go in to meet with this dog. And the person who is in there from the shelter is like,

Speaker 17 oh, don't get attached. His owner is going to be back for him.
Like the dog gets out all the time. The owner just goes and gets the dog back.

Speaker 17 And he is an escape artist, just like jumping over every fence. And I'm like, it reminded me of the barefoot bandit.
Like they cannot be separated.

Speaker 1 Always slipping between your fingers. Yes.
Yes. Well, I have a rec actually for today.

Speaker 17 Yeah. So this is a documentary.
and it actually premiered back in 2011 on HBO and it's called There's Something Wrong with Aunt Diane.

Speaker 17 And the documentary is about Diane Schuler and a terrible car accident that she gets into where there's multiple fatalities and sort of what leads to the crash and unpacking what was going on for Diane that the family was unaware of that probably led to this crash.

Speaker 17 It was just a really powerful examination of like how well you can know someone and also be unaware of their struggles.

Speaker 1 It sounds like there were some dark secrets that were revealed.

Speaker 17 Yes, yes. And it's incredibly heavy and sad, but it's also there's you can see despite, you know, because she was driving.

Speaker 17 So it's like, despite what happened with the crash and the death that came from this crash.

Speaker 17 There was so much love for her from so many of her family members still that it has always just stayed with me because I thought it was a really dynamic look at a tragedy.

Speaker 1 Is there a trial or a criminal aspect to this?

Speaker 17 You know, I don't remember if there was any sort of like post-mortem charges. I wouldn't think so, but I don't recall exactly.

Speaker 17 But yeah, there's one interview in particular that stands out so much to me and I don't even want to give it anything away, but you should watch it.

Speaker 17 It's powerful and it's one that I think probably not a lot of people have seen. Yeah.
What is it called again? There's something wrong with Aunt Diane.

Speaker 1 I'll put it on my list. I have to tell you, I just watched a documentary.

Speaker 1 I don't really have a recommendation, but I'm just going to mention this one because this is one that you recommended to me, not on air, just on personal text message. Okay.
Love has won. Yes.

Speaker 1 And you recently recommended this to me. And I was shocked.
And I think you were shocked too, that neither of us had seen this yet because it came out in 2023, I think.

Speaker 1 And it's about the Amy Carlson, her group. She was this sort of,

Speaker 1 she called herself Mother God.

Speaker 1 She had a group of followers and she was found dead in a home in Colorado. And I can't remember what year she died, but her followers were still there.
Her followers were still there.

Speaker 1 And we talked about this years ago, like as it was breaking news.

Speaker 17 Yeah, as news of her death was starting to make headlines, we were working on another show and the story came up and we actually reached out about it.

Speaker 17 And I think the person we made some contact with was her son who she was estranged from.

Speaker 17 But there was so much going on and so many people working on the story already that it just, it wasn't the right place for us to be spending our time.

Speaker 17 But the documentary is so unique because it has so much access to believers, followers, and you don't usually get that.

Speaker 1 I think they must have started filming right after she died because they have some very early footage of her followers doing interviews who still believe in her.

Speaker 1 And I mean, that must have just the trust that this documentary filmmaker must have had to build with them is really impressive.

Speaker 17 It was also impressive. I mean, you and I talk about this so much.

Speaker 17 It's like, especially because we've worked on cult stories, is that these interviews, you never felt like the director, the producer, the person behind the camera was poking any fun at them.

Speaker 17 I mean, these are, you know, probably considered pretty outrageous beliefs that these people have, but it never felt like we were laughing at them.

Speaker 17 It was just like an eye-opening view into like, wow, they were really in this.

Speaker 1 No, I totally agree. And that was really impressive.
And I like that a lot because it would have been so easy to make fun of these people. And I really felt like they never did that.

Speaker 1 It was really pretty empathetic viewpoint.

Speaker 1 Like also, most of the people that were in this cult seem like very kind people that that just like really went down a rabbit hole and believe some things that are like pretty out there.

Speaker 1 But one of the things also that makes the documentary so great is that part of what this, you know, I'm going to call them a cult. I think that's fair to say.
That's fair.

Speaker 1 Cult was doing is they were live streaming. They were selling products, crystals, tinctures.
And so part of that brand building is they were live streaming a lot.

Speaker 1 So there's just so much archival footage of them live streaming over the years. So it is such a well-done documentary.
I loved it and I would recommend it to anyone.

Speaker 17 Same. Love has won.
Love has won.

Speaker 1 Well, that was our episode this week.

Speaker 17 Thanks for listening and we'll see you guys soon.

Speaker 15 Bye.

Speaker 17 If you have a story for us, we would love to hear it. Our email is then at exactlyrightmedia.com or you can follow us on Instagram at theKnife Podcast or Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast.

Speaker 1 This has been an Exactly Right Production, hosted and produced by me, Hannah Smith, and me, Patia Eaton.

Speaker 17 Our producers are Tom Breifogel and Alexa Samorosi.

Speaker 1 This episode was mixed by Tom Breifogel.

Speaker 17 Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

Speaker 1 Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.

Speaker 17 Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.

Speaker 1 Executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.

Speaker 1 Amazon Five-Star Theater presents real customer reviews performed by a real serious improv podcaster. Tonight's review, Furby.
I bought a Furby as a nostalgic joke. Joke's on me.
Day one, adorable.

Speaker 1 Giggles, wiggles its ears, says, me love you. Day three, woke me up at 3 a.m.
whispering in Furbish. I think it summoned something.
Day five, I'm starting to ask it for life advice.

Speaker 1 Day seven, it blinked at me like it knew. I blinked back.
We've reached an understanding. I fear it.
I love it.

Speaker 17 Five stars, Aaron M. Find your perfect gift this holiday on Amazon.

Speaker 2 Master distiller Jimmy Russell knew Wild Turkey Bourbon got it right the first time. So for over 70 years, he hasn't changed a damn thing.

Speaker 2 Our pre-Prohibition style bourbons are aged longer and never watered down. So you know it's right too.

Speaker 2 For whatever you do with it, Wild Turkey 101 Bourbon makes an old-fashioned a bold fashion for bold nights out or at home.

Speaker 2 Wild Turkey bourbon, aged longer, never watered down to create one bold bold flavor. Copyright 2025, Otari America, New York, New York, never compromised, drink responsibly.

Speaker 1 This week, on a very special episode of Health Discovered, we take a closer look at MS.

Speaker 24 Every week in the U.S., approximately 200 people are diagnosed with multiple sclerosis.

Speaker 25 I grew up with parents that were divorced, and so when it was time for me to find care for these symptoms, it kind of just fell on me.

Speaker 24 We'll also address the deeper challenges patients face, like health disparities that delay diagnosis in underserved communities.

Speaker 1 Listen to Health Discovered on America's number one podcast network, iHeart.