The Knife: Off Record – 116

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Welcome to the Knife Hawth Record.

I'm Patia Eaton.

I'm Hannah Smith.

Well, we have a great episode.

This week, we have a conversation with the producer, writer, and then the new host of the Girlfriends podcast, Anna Sinfield.

It was so delightful talking with Anna.

It really was.

I remember listening to the girlfriend's first season of the show and just thinking, like, oh, this is like a beautiful podcast.

Yeah.

I mean, the host, obviously, amazing.

And Anna was producing behind the scenes.

And, you know, I appreciate what that role is and think it's so cool that she has since stepped into her new role as host.

And thinking back about the first season, I think what really drew me into the show is the same thing that draws me into The Girlfriend's Spotlight and why I'm looking forward to the next season of The Girlfriend so much is that there's just a real depth to their storytelling.

In the first season, you get this unraveling of a true crime story, but built into this person's like journey through life and relationships and hoping that this is the person that, you know, this man is going to be her sort of happy ending in life.

I mean, probably a lot of people have listened to The Girlfriend Season One, but if they haven't, what's the sort of synopsis?

So season one is a nine-part series and the host, Carol Fisher, is dating this man, a Jewish doctor, and this is like the pride and joy of her life in the moment is he's successful and he's chivalrous.

And, you know, there starts to, of course, be some red flags along the way.

But the main one is that his ex-wife, Gail, is missing.

And at first, that's not really a red flag.

It's just this tragic thing that happened to him.

But as their relationship falls apart, she starts really unraveling Gail's disappearance.

And she, you know, reaches out to women who have been in this man's life.

And

eventually they unravel the disappearance.

I don't want to give anything away, but it's so good.

It is so good.

And it really draws you in because you become attached to her own sort of like healing journey of also having been traumatized by this person in her own way.

Yes.

And I just thought it was so well done.

And I love podcasts, right?

So getting to talk to producers,

me too.

We both love you too.

Yeah.

So getting to talk to other producers is like, those are the interviews I could just keep people on for hours asking them questions.

But it was a really interesting conversation about sort of both creative choices and storytelling when you're also reporting on something that is,

you know, you have to be very careful.

Yeah, totally.

Yeah, it was great chatting with Anna.

You know, the girlfriends, you know, I don't know if listeners find this interesting.

I, as a producer, found this really interesting.

I'm that they have this format where they do long seasons of a show, like the nine episodes.

And then, so they have season three coming out.

Actually, by the time this is out, it will have just come out.

Can't wait wait to listen to it.

But then they have these standalone episodes called Spotlight that are also on the feed.

And it's great that they have these long seasons of stories as well as these shorter stories.

So we're going to get to that interview with Anna very shortly.

But, you know, I have just really been

reading a lot about this case this week.

So I thought I wanted to give you an update on it and talk about it.

And then we'll get to Anna's interview.

And then at the end, Patia has some great recommendations.

I do.

Okay, so this case has been talked about on some podcasts.

I think there was a Discovery ID episode about it, which I did not watch.

But one of the things, the obvious things that draws me to it is that it takes place in Oklahoma.

I'm from Tulsa, so I've got to love these Oklahoma stories.

But this is actually about Brenda Evers Andrew, who is the only woman on death row in Oklahoma and has been on death row since 2004.

Okay.

There was a really interesting Supreme Court opinion that relates to her case that just happened this year in January and potentially might change the outcome of her case, which is why I want to talk about it today.

But before we get into that, let me tell you, refresh you about this story and tell you what happened.

So Brenda Evers Andrew grew up in Enid, Oklahoma.

It's about like an hour and a half, two hours north of Oklahoma City.

It's a

city of like 50,000 people.

She was raised in this middle-class family that was devoutly Christian.

Her friends and family say that she was just like always a really good kid, did well in school, went to church.

And when she was 21, she married Rob Andrew.

They had two children together.

They moved to Texas for a bit, but then back to Oklahoma for Rob's work.

He was an advertising executive and pretty successful in his career.

They were both involved in church, but by 2001, 17 years into their marriage, their marriage was basically done.

It was totally falling apart.

And what would come to light later with like interviews with their family and community members is that this was not a new thing.

Their whole marriage basically had been pretty rocky and they had not gotten divorced at that time.

I think because of religious reasons, they sort of didn't believe in divorce.

But eventually by 2001, it was like, okay, this is not working.

We have to get a divorce.

And one of the main issues really, or at least that has been written about a lot is that Brenda had multiple affairs.

In 2001, Brenda was working as a Sunday school teacher for their church.

And so was this man named James Pavitt.

And that is, I think, how Brenda and James met.

And they were both asked to step down and quit.

being Sunday school teachers because it sort of came out that they were having this affair.

Makes sense.

Yeah.

But then there's also on top of that, like the folks at church, they didn't really like how Brenda dressed.

They thought she showed a little too much cleavage and she was a little too flirty.

So, you know, people were pretty quick to

say that to the press and to the police later.

But regardless, Rob basically, I don't know the exact timeline of when he moved out, but it's noted that in October of 2001, Rob, Brenda's husband, he went to get into his car and he noticed that there was like a lot of liquid under it.

So he was like, this is weird.

He got in, immediately went to a closeby repair shop and just had them check it out.

The guy working at the shop supposedly was horrified and said, this is so weird.

It looks like someone has literally cut your brakes.

And

then he got three phone calls.

from an unknown number saying, there's been an emergency.

Like you have to come to the hospital in Norman immediately, which was like two hours south.

Your kids are, you know, your wife is in the hospital.

None of that was true.

And he started to put the pieces together that he believed whoever cut his brakes was also responsible for calling him, hoping that he would quickly jump in his car, get on the freeway going 80 miles an hour, and then his brakes would go out.

Right.

So he actually told people in his life as well as police that he believed that Brenda and James were trying to kill him.

Because he knew about the affair.

He had found out about the affair.

Okay.

Yeah.

So on October 3rd, 2001, Brenda filed for divorce.

They start living separately.

Rob moves out of the family home and is, you know, worried about his future and his life.

On November 20th, 2001, he goes to pick up their kids from their home.

It's like Thanksgiving time.

A lot of people in the neighborhood are away and the kids are in the house.

Brenda said that she wanted him to look at the pilot light.

And so they go into the garage.

The garage door is open.

And at that time, Rob was shot two times with a 16-gauge shotgun and died from the gunshot wound.

And so it seems like he was lured there.

Potentially.

Potentially.

Yeah.

Brenda was also shot in the upper left arm, but with a different type of weapon, a.22 caliber gunshot.

I don't know a lot about guns, not that I'm interested in learning that much about them, but it was clear that the wounds to Rob were fatal, sort of what seemed like intentionally.

And with Brenda, it seemed like

not that big of a deal.

Why are you, you know, you're sharing the money?

Why are you switching guns in the moment?

Yeah.

And, you know, so Brenda called 911 and said, you know, that two masked men had attacked the home.

At first, everyone is, you know, horrified and worried for her.

She goes into the hospital.

She recovers.

But as the investigation continues, the two masked men aspect just doesn't make any sense.

It's also a really safe neighborhood.

No one else has seen anyone, you know, running around or no homes have been broken into.

Nothing was stolen from Brenda's house.

But Brenda's neighbors were out of town and they came back after this happened.

They cut their Thanksgiving trip short.

And when they went into their home, they could tell that someone had been inside the house and they even found like a shotgun casing on the floor.

So they called the police and the police started to put together this.

idea that the shooter had probably been inside the neighbor's home because the way the homes were situated, it was like a clear vantage point.

But the thing was that Brenda had a key to the house and had been watching the home, getting their mail, watering the plants while they were gone.

So as they start putting the pieces together, they have this theory that they believe James Pabot was in the home, in the neighbor's house with a shotgun, and he becomes a suspect.

And also they find out through looking at their bank accounts that Brenda had right around this time transferred $35,000 out of a shared account she had with Rob into her account.

Prior to the shooting?

I think right after.

Right after.

Okay.

Which is like whatever.

That's not suspicious on its own.

Like maybe you move money around.

But whenever Rob's funeral comes, Brenda and the kids are not there.

They don't show up.

No one knows where they are.

Hours go by and eventually the police perform a wellness check and they're just gone.

And so is one of their vehicles.

And then basically for three months after that, Brenda and the two kids and James were all missing.

And it looked like they fled.

Pretty strange.

Right.

Eventually they figure out that they're in Mexico.

They freeze their bank account so they are out of money and they have to come back into the U.S.

And they get them when they are coming back into Texas and arrest both of them.

James Pavit's daughter actually ends up notifying law enforcement and working with them to try to find them because she had borrowed her dad's car after this and noticed that there was a bullet on the, like on the ground and found this very suspicious.

And then he left and he had said something to her like, I think that Brenda and I might leave the country because they think that we, we did this.

So in 2004, James Pavot's trial was first and he was convicted of first degree murder and given the death penalty.

And then Brenda's trial was after.

And she was also convicted of first degree murder and given the death penalty.

They both went to trial, neither one pled.

Right.

Here's the thing.

Brenda's been on death row in Oklahoma for two decades.

Well, since 2004.

And she has maintained her innocence.

She has appealed her case and has gone all the way up to the U.S.

Supreme Court.

And the reason for this, basically, the crux of her appeal is that the prosecution did not have enough evidence to convict her.

And so they attacked her character and slut-shamed her.

And when you look at what happened in the courtroom, it's pretty alarming.

The prosecutors use the terms slut puppy and hoochie to talk about her.

What is a slut puppy?

I don't even know.

It makes me think of hush puppy.

I'm like, a slut puppy?

I've never heard of that.

Horrible.

This is 2001 when this was happening.

And they called...

multiple witnesses to the stand who were men in the community who were just there to testify about how she dressed and how she flirted with them and how they found that inappropriate.

They talked about her relationships that had nothing to do with this that had happened 20 years prior, you know, that she had slept with an ex-boyfriend.

And in the closing argument, the prosecuting attorney, he took a suitcase and opened it up and pulled out like thong underwear and bras from it and was holding it in front of the jury's face and said,

quote, the grieving widow packs this to go sleep in a hotel room with her boyfriend the grieving widow packs this in her appropriate act of grief a grieving widow doesn't pack her thong underwear and run off with her boyfriend i mean

it's like sadly unsurprising as a woman your marriage is not over the day your divorce is finalized your marriage you know your relationship usually ends well before that.

And obviously the affairs that she had, you know,

not great, but like certainly not evidence of murder.

Well, that's the thing, right?

It's not a crime to have an affair.

It's not a crime to wear a thong or to flirt.

Someone could think that those are not great things to do to have an affair on your partner, but it's certainly not something you would be sent to prison for.

And that's a really clear line that should be drawn.

They also painted her as a bad mother and tried to just totally rip apart her reputation and act like she was just this horrible person.

But actually, there are accounts that she was a great mother, that she was very involved with her kids' lives and she was like a very good neighbor and community member.

So anyway, in 2023, the 10th U.S.

Circuit Court of Appeal upheld her decision, but it was like a two-to-one vote.

So there were three judges looking at it and one of them said, I think this is a violation of her rights, but two of them agreed.

So then it went all the way to the U.S.

Supreme Court.

And in January, they issued an opinion.

And it says, among other things, the prosecution elicited testimony about Andrew's sexual partners reaching back two decades, about the outfits she wore to dinner or during grocery runs, about the underwear she packed for vacation, and about how often she had sex in her car.

And the prosecutors also brought out a book during her original trial that she had in her home called 203 Ways to Drive a Man Wild in Bed and hold this up as if it were evidence that that she had shot and killed her husband.

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First of all, we don't know what's gonna happen.

Basically, her case is going back down to the 10th Circuit Court, and they're gonna have to decide what happens.

Like, there's a possibility that she'll have another trial, or it's possible that she'll just be re-sentenced with this information.

But essentially, like, the whole idea is that the court decided that the focus on her sex life influenced any realistic chance that the jury could really truly give her a fair shot and understand her version of events.

Like basically the ruling just said that she didn't really have a fair trial.

That doesn't mean she's innocent.

That doesn't mean that she wasn't involved in this.

We don't know for sure because they focus so much on her as a person, her as this sort of Jezebel

scarlet letter woman, that that is what she was judged on, seemingly.

One of her attorneys, who's also a Cornell law professor, said, with this decision, the U.S.

Supreme Court has for the first time signaled that prosecutors may not use and courts may not admit prejudicial evidence attacking women's abilities as mothers and their private sex lives without violating women's constitutional rights.

And I think that feels like such a big moment because there are so many cases throughout history.

I mean, just thinking about Amanda Knox, right?

Like where women have been vilified because of their sexuality.

And then that gets murky and twisted and can end up giving them a guilty verdict, not based on evidence or facts at all.

Yeah, it's like there's this hatred of women that can be preyed on and like used to convince someone that, well, what does it matter?

Like we think she did it and she's so awful, don't you?

Instead of, here's exactly the reasons that we have to believe she was like planning this out or knew it was going to happen or instigated it with her partner.

I'm curious, did her boyfriend,

did he ever turn on her?

Did he ever say she knew about this?

Like, what was his stance?

He was just like, I had no knowledge of it.

They both have always said that.

I am not totally sure.

I didn't look into his trial.

I know that he was convicted.

There was a reporting about a letter that he wrote or that was in his handwriting saying that she had nothing to do with it.

But I'm not totally sure what happened with his case.

Yeah.

I mean, it's surprising and not surprising that would take this long for that to be

said about courtroom standards or whatever you want to call it.

Like you cannot just talk about the underwear that she wore.

Like what is the relevance?

You cannot just berate her character in all of these other ways.

You have to talk about what happened.

Yeah, totally.

And give everyone a fair chance.

I mean, that's why I think like it feels, even though it's sort of a dark story, this Supreme Court ruling feels like a hopeful, positive thing for cases going forward, at least to have this decision on record to show like, yeah, it is unconstitutional to just sex shame someone in court and then give them the death penalty because of that.

This is someone's life.

I'm amazed the death penalty exists.

If you've we've gotten it wrong before, totally.

I totally agree.

Should not exist.

Should not exist.

That's our stance on the death penalty.

That is, we're clear

about that and we will not apologize for it.

Okay.

Well,

that's a win for women, even though it's in the context of this extremely dark case.

Obviously, someone was killed.

That's terrible.

But,

you know, a fair trial is important.

Like, whether or not someone is guilty, we have to set the standard that everybody accused of something charged with something gets a fair trial and it matters a lot yeah

you can be a slut and also not a murderer yeah go be a slut or a slut puppy whatever you want that's right well let's get into this conversation with anna sinfield let's get into it

Hi, Anna.

Thanks so much for joining us on the knife.

Yeah, we're really excited.

Thank you so much for having me.

I'm not used to being in the hot seat.

So this is cool.

A role reversal for me.

You're used to interviewing, and now we're going to interview you.

Yeah, I'll try and flip the script on you guys.

Well, we are such big fans of the Girlfriend podcast.

We loved season one.

If anyone hasn't listened, definitely go listen.

It covers the murder of Gail Katz, and it's a story of how women came together to bring down one ex-boyfriend and seek justice for Gail.

It was so good.

It was followed up by season two, which is also just excellent.

We love it.

And And now there's a series that dropped a couple of months ago called The Girlfriend Spotlight, and you're the host,

which is so exciting.

And we want to get into all of this.

But first, we kind of want to know a little bit about how you got to be where you are.

How did you get into podcasting and true crime?

Kind of lead us up to what you were doing before you got to The Girlfriends.

Well, it was a bit of a strange journey that I took to get into a podcast because I actually started off working as a musician.

I was a singer for about nine years or something.

And it was really fun.

I used to do really cool things.

Like I got flown out to sing at like a weird wedding in Marrakesh in the middle of a swimming pool.

And I used to play at a jazz bar three nights a week.

And I had a really good time.

I was on the road a lot.

I was like a blues and jazz singer doing all of the standards.

But also it started to kind of grind on me a little bit.

It's a tough life.

It's a tough hustle to make sure you've got enough money to pay the bills.

And

the work kind of started drying up.

I started teaching singing and I was like, this sucks.

So what can I do that would be another use for my voice?

I remember when I was a kid driving to school in the car with my dad, we'd listen to the radio.

And I remember having this thought where I was like, I either want to be in one of the bands or I want to be the radio DJ.

And I kind of went down the bands route for a really long time.

And then when I was kind of leaving that behind, I thought, I guess I'll try the other thing.

And so I went and studied radio.

I had this amazing year studying radio.

And yeah, I went into it thinking that I'd want to be on the mic.

And then actually

what really hooked me was kind of helping other people tell their stories and the artistry of that, of kind of helping someone gives me an interview.

And then I get to really decide how that's put across, like what bits I give emphasis to, what certain things mean, the context that it's delivered in, the music, all of that.

And so I just like went down that route for a really long time and had a great ride with it.

I never thought that I'd end up in front of the mic again.

I genuinely had completely given up on that dream.

I hadn't thought about it.

And then...

you know, a few projects later, I got to work on some cool radio dramas.

I did a lot of like nature documentaries.

And so I was recording on the top of mountains and cool things like that.

And then I did my first true crime project, ended up doing the girlfriends where I was a bit on Mike just naturally as the producer.

And we got into the kind of series now spotlight where we needed a host.

And it was like, you're already kind of one of the girlfriends.

People know who you are.

It felt the most natural for me to step up into that.

But when I was asked, I was like, what?

I was completely mind blown by the suggestion that I'd get back on Mike, even though that was the original goal.

And so it's gone a bit 360, which is fun.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

I'm at Hannah working on The Opportunist.

Hannah is the lead producer and host of that show while I was working on it and created the show.

And I came on as a producer.

And so, you know, going from producer to host, it is a journey.

And I didn't have the vocal experience that you have.

So luckily, I just have Hannah's expertise at my disposal.

But it's a really exciting way to go from like, there's a lot of say when you're producing like how you bring someone's story to life, but it's a whole other connection with your listenership that's just really intangible.

Totally.

Yeah.

And I think these days you have a lot of people who end up in the presenter chair because they're influencers for other reasons.

You know, they've just got a lot of social media likes or followers or whatever.

Not to say they're not valid, but back in the day, it used to be a natural journey that someone would be a journalist or a producer and they'd end up on the microphone.

And that comes with a lot of training that you're perhaps not aware that you're having that makes you good at doing, say, an interview.

You know, and I've worked with a lot of influencer style hosts who are doing it for the first time.

And being an interviewer is not a natural thing that comes to them.

But I wasn't so scared about that part, the part where I'm having to talk to people because I'd been doing it for years and years anyway as a producer.

Yeah, that's a great point.

Yeah.

You have such a great voice for podcasting and your narrative style is really natural and good, which is like such a joy to listen to.

I agree.

Like I love listening to all kinds of voices, but in a podcast series, especially, I love hearing a narrator who was deeply involved in making the show because I think then they have all these different insights and they're so invested in the people that they're interviewing and the story that they're telling.

And it can be such a powerful experience, as I'm sure you know, when you're working on a story and, you know, you're spending so much time speaking with people and doing interviews.

And Paisha and I talk a lot about how we have like different experiences of a story that we're producing.

It's like the first initial discovery of it.

There's the investigative part, the interviews.

And then there's this whole other experience of like putting it together and the choices that you make editing it.

And then the audience just gets to have that sort of one experience of listening to the final thing, right?

But there's so much more that goes into a story or like.

There's so many more experiences that we have that don't come out in that final piece.

And so I'm curious, there's probably so many many of them, but I'm curious if you have any moments that stand out to you, like from season one or season two of your experience producing the girlfriends, whatever it is that is sort of memorable to you about those first two seasons.

Oh my God.

I mean, all of it.

It was a really huge experience for me, because although I'd made this true crime show that also was number one in the US before that, that was called Stolen Hearts.

And so that was my first big like success.

and that was really interesting but it was also a UK based story so a lot of the experiences didn't feel too different to me being on the road a lot as a musician because I used to drive around the UK all the time driving down to Wales to do some interviews felt pretty normal for that one but coming to the US for a reporting trip that felt so glamorous.

My God, I was like, I've arrived, I'm in New York City, I'm in Times Square.

So as a personal just experience of doing that, that was amazing.

But when it comes to the actual kind of like editorial content, meeting the women who ended up being involved and spending time with them physically in the States felt huge for me.

You know, getting to sit down with Elaine, the sister of Gail Katz, who is such a formidable, amazing woman.

And like everyone who listens to the show is obsessed with Elaine because she's got this like incredible voice.

And she's in charge of every room she's in as she should be she has earned that place and to kind of go and try and interview her and kind of naturally just be deferential to her power was like something that really stayed with me and trying to like navigate that and the trust that they all put in me the kind of tears that a lot of them shed around me felt those kind of moments still stick with me as you know i feel very um a lot of warmth towards all of those women.

But also it's kind of strange sort of behind the scenes things.

You know, I had odd phone calls with people defending Bob

that never end up on tape.

But, you know, I remember one point I was at my parents' house and I couldn't reschedule this phone call with somebody that Bob knew.

And I was like lying on my parents' sofa, this place that should be sort of relaxing.

You know, my mum's pottering in the kitchen, making cups of tea, being like the typical English mother.

And I'm having this phone call with someone defending a murderer that went on for two hours.

Wow.

You know, moments like that just kind of stay with you.

I think almost like especially because they don't end up on tape.

You know, like so much of the stuff that I really remember, there's good reasons why it didn't end up on tape.

Some of it I legally couldn't put on tape, but you end up becoming the like guardian of the weird quirks that happen behind the scenes, you know, and they stick with me.

Totally.

Yeah, for that conversation, were you not able to put it on tape because this person didn't agree to that?

Or why did you not put that conversation in the podcast?

Yeah, it was off the record.

They just were quite spiritual and had gone through a whole journey of being,

I think, manipulated into having the views that they had.

And they just really wanted to persuade me to see the other side.

But the other side was the other side that a lot of people who are,

if I can swear, like arseholes, had of Gail because it was the whole kind of, she was such a difficult person.

Like, of course he did it.

Basically.

wow.

Obviously, that's, that's not a great argument against, you know, why someone should be put in prison for murder.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I would say it's a terrible argument.

It's not going to stand up in a court of law, quite rightly.

Yeah.

Those off-the-record conversations are like as a producer, you know, I'm taking these copious notes or, you know, Hannah and I will immediately like just information download to one another.

But yeah, it's tough.

And sometimes I'm like, how much of my time am I giving this?

Like, I want to know everything I need to know from this person.

But also, when someone just starts trying to persuade me of something, I'm like, okay, I know the show that I'm making usually.

And yeah, it's a balance too.

Completely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sometimes it can be tough to like draw those boundaries because it is like, can become like very all consuming.

And sort of as you had mentioned earlier, Anna, like when you're working on a story, you get so like deeply invested with the people people that you're interviewing and the people whose story it is.

And Patia and I feel the same way.

Like we talk a lot about how important it is when someone tells us their story.

We feel a huge responsibility to do justice to it, to tell the best story we can and to tell a true and fair story, well-researched story.

But we don't want anyone coming back to us and saying like, oh, God, you did a horrible job.

You totally botched my story, right?

Like we want them to feel good about putting it out to the world.

But I feel like, you know, I have in the past, Mesha has in the past, like very deeply involved with people that we're making these stories with.

And do you have any thoughts about that or as far as like boundaries that you have to make personally for yourself?

Or how do you feel about it?

Yeah, I think that's really complicated because

we're asking for a lot of people.

And I really feel that.

And I feel that, you know, obviously we can all kind of wax lyrical about how grateful we feel because of course we feel grateful.

These people are providing us with a job

and allowing us to make art or stories or however you like to define podcasts into something that hopefully helps other people or at least entertains other people or whatever the purpose is that you have but I also think you have to remember that it isn't an exchange and it really feels like most human interactions you go I want you to give me loads of yourself and in order to do that I shall give you loads of me and that's what the relationship building is.

But there's some situations where you're perhaps interviewing people who aren't good people.

Like if you start giving yourself in order to have somebody who you perhaps don't trust or has committed a crime, you have to be really cautious.

Also, we deal with like very, very fragile people.

And I think you have to be aware that the person they present themselves to be at the start

isn't necessarily the person they're going to be throughout.

And so it can be very easy to kind of build build a relationship based on this one particular moment.

But actually, a lot of people who have experienced, you know, abject trauma, their reaction to a story coming out about them might be really explosive.

And then suddenly their feelings about you might really change.

And you have to prepare yourself for that and kind of shore yourself up as you go along to make sure that actually they don't suddenly feel betrayed when you do step back.

You know, if they suddenly explode and you've been all like, you're my best friend, blah, blah, blah,

and then suddenly you're giving them loads of distance, that's really cruel.

And so it's important to maintain those boundaries all the way through, but it can be hard.

It can be really hard.

I mean, I recently had an experience that I hadn't had yet where we came across this story, and this woman I had connected with about it, she seemed really excited about telling her story.

It would have been the first time she'd ever told it.

And it was a sexual assault that took place in her home, an intruder.

And as I did like a second sort of preliminary call with her, and her tone sort of shifted about like my intentions and the intentions of the podcast.

And,

you know, we always level with people.

This is what our show is.

This is what it's not, you know, and our goal, you know, is to tell your story in a way that you're happy with it, but we never want to make it sound like it's more than it is.

And her whole demeanor shifted.

And then she said, but I still want to do the interview.

And I was like, I don't think this is a good fit.

And I'd actually never had that happen before, but it felt like maybe this story would be something our audience would be really interested to hear.

But I don't think it would go smoothly after the fact.

Yeah.

Totally.

And it's good for you to kind of step in and recognize that.

And, you know, maybe you have to be the bad guy, you know, in the first instance, but actually it pays dividends to them later on, you know?

Yeah, totally.

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Yeah, so I want to talk about the girlfriend's spotlight.

Yeah.

I'm so interested in it.

It's exciting to hear it on the feed and exciting that you are the host.

You know, we got to hear you, as you said, a little bit in season one and season two.

You were on mic a little bit more.

And so we were already familiar with who you were.

And now you're the host.

And it's such a cool series.

I want to ask you about, you know, one of the taglines is stories about women winning.

Yeah.

I thought that was really intriguing.

And so I'd love for you to tell us like how the girlfriend spotlight came about as an idea and how you landed on that sort of theme and tagline yeah so i mean the way spotlight came about as a concept was just that we

had this feed and these shows that had kind of amassed a big audience of supporters and you know a big big community of people who felt really invested in it and naturally we wanted to just kind of keep growing that we keep building it but the brutal producery reality is that it's really hard to make narrative series and they take a lot of time and you can't just put those out every single week.

And so we're trying to figure out ways that we could keep the feed going in between those big narratives, but also a way where we could tell stories that couldn't be turned into narratives.

Because obviously we we go through so many stories in order to decide what those narratives are going to be.

And very often, 99% of the time, you're going, oh, this one couldn't really sustain that amount of episodes.

This one doesn't have enough characters.

Most of them are dead, so they couldn't talk or something like that.

There's so many different hurdles that mean something wouldn't make a good limited series.

But they are really great stories.

And so doing one-off episodes allowed us to do that.

So that's kind of how it ended up coming about.

And the women winning tagline was

also because we were trying to figure out like what the girlfriends was.

And I think like the first two series, they were associated with each other, right?

You know, series two was a continuation of the first series.

We didn't really have to think about it too much for the second one.

And we were like, okay, so it's about kind of a group of women getting together and seeking justice.

That was the first idea.

And then that group of women thing actually became quite tough.

It's not always a group of women.

It means that you can't tell those kind of stories of the single kind of warrior woman who's doing something that often just like collectively does impact and benefit multiple women.

So there's a sort of coming together there, a kind of greater good for the sisterhood or whatever.

And so we're like, that needs to be part of it.

The other thing that feels like it's really, really important, perhaps the most important thing to the girlfriends, is that there's this like feeling within True Crime that every time a woman features, she gets murdered and she's just like cast aside.

she's the loser in that story you know often they should be the center of the story it's all about them but they're the least known character and i really tried to flip that for the girlfriend so i was like really trying to get to know the women who'd been victimized and make them the central characters of the story not bob and at the end of it there needs to be some kind of sense of actually

Therefore, it's not all bad to be a woman.

You know, women can exist in society and have terrible things happen to them but still have like great friendships and gossip and still put the bad guy away if that's what they're trying to do or still just ignore him entirely you know there's so many other ends for women involved in bad things than just

murdered and so that's what it became I think that you've done a really great job at that, by the way.

Like even from the, I think it's the pilot episode about Tracy.

Yeah.

There's just enough about her assailant to like place him in her life and in the story.

And then it's just her.

And obviously that's a theme that continues on.

But you do a great job.

I actually noticed it immediately and was like, I love this.

Oh, great.

Same.

Yeah.

It really stands out.

And it's so refreshing when listening to True Crime.

We love that.

And then you do it really well in the girlfriend's spotlight as well.

All the episodes, like.

There are some very dark episodes, some darker than others, but there's a lot of positivity and a lot of like.

Like levity.

Levity, yeah.

And you get really get to know these women in a, in a cool way.

Yeah.

And I think that reflects my experience of life and friendships, right, with other women is my friends, we all go through really bad things, some worse than others, but most of the time it's dealt with in a way that's like, you know, heartwarming and you're there and you can cry on my shoulder or all of this, but also at some point I'm just going to make you laugh about something, you know, like at some point we're going to poke fun at this thing.

We're going to find the joy, we're going to ignore it entirely, and

it's not all gloom.

Trauma doesn't happen in this one traumatic, life sad and depressing bubble.

And that's the only thing that you experience.

I think often when you talk to people about the worst things that have happened to them, they'll go, oh, and then the weirdest thing happened.

Like, you know, I found out my grandma died and then like my cat just threw up and it was just like it punctured the moment.

You know what I mean?

It's just like, and these little moments that kind of like pierce a scene is actually what happens in real life.

So I wanted to capture that in the girlfriends.

Yeah, I think you've successfully done that.

I've noticed it in all of the Spotlight episodes, actually.

I'm curious, how much interaction do you have with the people that you're interviewing prior to recording?

For Spotlight, none from me.

That's all done with the producers who do like a pre-interview with them, write up kind of an an interview brief doc and some questions, and then I review that.

So it's quite different from doing the narrative series, whereas like obviously for that, I would have spoken to people for ages on the phone and video calls.

And then I fly out to be with them and spend often days basically living with them.

But this way for Spotlight, I have an hour and a half.

to bond, meet them for the first time, get them comfortable enough to tell me about the worst thing that's ever happened to them and then like also kind of try make them not feel terrible at the end of it yeah it's it's a it's a test of um social skills more than anything i think

yeah do you find that doing interviews remotely i mean obviously there's a difference in the amount of time you're spending with someone at all virtually or otherwise but do you find any challenges with like connecting with someone virtually or everyone feels so used to that now.

Sometimes Sometimes I wonder how much of a difference it's making.

It is harder, I think.

Yeah.

Because you don't have the sort of body language that you have in person.

You also don't have the sort of niceties at the bit before where it's like, do you want a cup of tea?

Or no?

Or do you have oat milk?

You know, these little things that are signifiers of someone's personality.

And it also, I think, it's different with different people.

Like younger people are very used to talking like this.

And so they can figure it out quite quickly but a lot of the time kind of older people they can struggle with the technology and that really stresses them out and that's a stressful start and i kind of feel crap for that and then yeah they kind of if i'm looking a different direction or something just because i'm listening that feels like a break of eye contact so i'm i'm conscious of that i'd love to do all my interviews in person i much prefer that but you know that would be the dream it would be the dream yeah

sidebar the idea of being able to offer someone that you're getting ready to interview a cup of tea is just like so delightful to me i'm like oh my gosh like

you know you've really got that figured out over there what do we have water or like coffee

like a liquid or whatever yeah like

the tea i'm like wow offering someone a cup of tea just sounds like such a great thing to do it's like communal it's comforting yeah i love it It's like a little hug at the start.

On the girlfriend spotlight, you have such a kind of wide variety of topics and people that you speak with.

I mean, it's really like pretty wide-ranging.

And I guess, you know, thinking about women winning as a theme really allows you to talk with a lot of different kinds of people.

You know, you speak with Luann, Paisha, and I both really loved that episode, who escaped this polygamous Kingston clan.

And then like on a different side of the spectrum, you have like a Russian activist from Pussy Riot.

And then you have like an investigator who's solving cold cases, which is so cool.

And really, I love that episode and really speaks back to what you're talking about.

Like one woman thriving can like have such a ripple effect of helping other women.

This, if people haven't listened to it, they have to listen to the episode with Rose Brady from the Baltimore County SVU, who started to investigate this backlog of cold cases, rape kits that this forensic pathologist had just kept.

you know, which like yay him as well, right?

And she starts to solve these cases.

It's really incredible.

but you know how do you think about what types of stories do you want to tell because they are so really

different

yeah well i mean i was conscious and the whole team was conscious that we didn't want to just stick in true crime the whole time or for it to be one brand of true crime i think it'd be very easy for every episode or series of the girlfriends to be some sort of domestic violence case because that's what we kind of started out exploring And, you know, like a bad husband or a bad boyfriend.

And I think that also feels if we ended up just doing that, but always trying to put some sort of like positive spin or levity within that, we'd also still be being reductive to what the experiences are.

You know, women come in all shapes and sizes with all kinds of experiences.

So I want to cover it.

I also don't personally just want to sit in really sad stories the whole time.

So ones like when we had June Millington, the guitarist from the like, you know, first all-women rock band in the US.

That's like a rock star, you know, she was just a rock star.

And, like, yeah, of course, she's experienced misogyny on her rise in rock, and it was tough.

She also is just a rock star who has a really cool story.

And I want to have those on the feed as well because, I mean, it's just, it's fun, isn't it?

Those are great stories and they should be told.

And that is an example of a woman winning.

so why not?

Yeah, I mean, I think the girlfriends and spotlight-it's a great example, and something we're striving for on the knife is like it falls within this true crime genre, but you feel good about having listened to it.

That's great to hear.

You don't feel icky, right?

You don't feel icky, yeah.

I love to not give the ick.

That's like top goal, yeah.

So, thank you for that.

No ick.

How has your audience responded to Spotlight and yeah, yeah, the sort of change in format?

Pretty well.

Yeah, it's a lot of change for people to adjust to, but I haven't had any hate mail, so that's been wonderful.

Good.

It's only been positive.

You know, after the Nadia episode from Pussy Riot, somebody messaged me saying, I've been thinking about Nadia.

It was so nice to hear her voice.

I was worried about her.

Because that is one of those stories, the Pussy Riot story that kind of has lived in a lot of our minds.

You know, like, what's going on there?

What happened?

And people have been, I was obviously personally very worried taking over as host because Carol's so amazing and everyone loves Carol as they should.

And taking over that role, having been the sidekick the whole time, I thought people wouldn't like that.

But actually people have been really lovely and embraced me.

And I'm interested to see how they kind of embrace me or cope with the idea of a new narrative series as well, because that's when it will feel like we're really departing from that those first two series.

I think it will really feel like we're doing something new.

And I'm hosting that as well.

It's well deserved.

You're doing such a great job and it's a great show.

And I want to hear a little bit more about this narrative series that you have upcoming.

But just for clarity, so is Spotlight over or will Spotlight continue to come out weekly in between the narrative seasons?

Yeah, so I mean, Spotlight is in perpetuity at the moment.

So the way it's working at the moment, eight of the Spotlight episodes have already come out.

There's a short pause, depends when you put this out, but there's a short pause.

And then Jailhouse Lawyer, our next narrative series, is going to come out on July 14th.

And then we have another narrative series coming out straight after that, just to kind of really indulge the listeners.

And then more Spotlight.

And from then on, we're hoping to have the pattern of kind of eight spotlight episodes, a narrative, eight spotlight episodes, a narrative, and hopefully do that forever and ever and ever.

Please, iHeart.

Are you listening, iHeart?

They are.

Yeah.

Thank you so much, Katrina.

Yeah.

Well, cool.

I mean, I love that.

I love that format.

And I also love producers and, you know, makers of podcasts spreading the word about like, yeah, it's really, it takes so much work to make these long seasons of a show.

And Patia and I know that well.

And it's also great to just like make content and put it out and be able to tell these smaller stories and continue making, which is one of the reasons why we started The Knife, because we just, we want to make podcasts.

We want to connect with people and put something out regularly.

Tell us about the new series, The Girlfriend's Jailhouse Lawyer.

Like, what can you tease about what we can expect from this new series?

Well, The Girlfriend's Jailhouse Lawyer is...

Gonna feel very different from what people have already heard on the feed.

And I'm really excited about that because I like every series to be some sort of challenge.

But this series is about a woman who was convicted of murder, a murder she said she didn't commit.

But she did spend 12 years behind bars for that.

And while she was behind bars, because she, you know, was adamant, she did not do this, she was innocent, she trained herself up in law.

And she became this sort of jailhouse lawyer figure.

And at first, it was like obviously to help sort out her own case.

She was really trying to get herself out of prison.

But she also, along the way, which is the sort of girl frenzy bit, she was helping other women with their cases.

And she even got some women out of prison herself, which is so cool, or really helped get them out of prison herself.

And so that's the sort of simple version of the story.

Woman convicted of murder, says she didn't do it, went to prison, trained to be a jailhouse lawyer, busted herself and some other women out of prison.

Happy days.

But there's layers of kind of complicatedness that we explore within that that in regards to what it means to be a villain or a victim and actually kind of what my role has been and your guys' role has been as true crime reporters in deciding that and in reinforcing ideas of what victims are and what villains are, what the state has done to make you see a certain person as a victim or a certain person as a villain and how murky it can be when sometimes the two overlap.

And so there's lots of sort of interesting analysis along the way too, but tied up within like a very juicy story forward podcast.

I can't wait to hear it.

Yeah, that sounds so good.

I'm very excited.

Thank you.

Yeah, I'm really excited for it to go out, but I'm also nervous because it does feel like a flip in the fact that before we always had these very clean cut characters who,

you know, you've just got this one bad guy and you've got these women who kind of really just haven't seemed to have done anything wrong.

And in this one, we're really asking people to go, I know she's still got a murder charge, you know, or like, I know she's still been accused of murder.

But what if it's more complicated than that?

Like, I'm asking people to actually extend compassion to someone who would be traditionally seen as the perpetrator of the crime.

And that's the woman at the center of the story.

I love that.

I love that.

Yeah.

Hannah and I on the knife and on our previous show like loved exploring this idea of like good and bad, good and evil, whatever you want to call it, being in every one of us.

And you never think it's going to be you until it is.

And like when you're faced with these circumstances that you could have never anticipated, you could think right now how you might react, but that's usually not the case.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And that's what, that's what Kelly, the central character, says.

She's like, I asked her at one point in the first episode, I say, how important is it to you that the audience believes you, that they believe that you're innocent, because everyone's jury, you know?

And she's like,

you know, no one can say what they'd do if they were put in a situation.

You know, at any one given time, if you were put in the situations I was,

what can you do?

And it's true.

You know, the reason it's a wrestle for me at points to tell the story that I'm telling in Jailhouse Lawyer is because I've lived a really good life.

I have like so much, as much as I try to be a great, impartial, you know, journalist, someone on the outside looking in, the observer, it's like, that's not true.

It's like so much of what I see and what I interpret, just like everybody else, is based on the fact that I've lived a certain life and my life is very far from the abuse that she's experienced, the drug abuse that she's experienced, the homelessness that she was experiencing at the time.

So how can I judge?

Because I'm sure if I was in those situations, I'd be doing desperate things.

Yeah, well, that makes me even more excited to hear it.

I'm obviously already a huge fan, but can't wait.

Yeah.

I love those kind of complex stories.

And I love that you're taking, you're going to, sounds like going to take us to a place where you explore that in a thoughtful way.

I think that's the best kind of true crime.

Like that's true crime when it's really doing its job is making us think about other people's experiences and lives and like beyond ourselves and have some sort of story, you know, the narrative really helps us get there, but to be able to stop and think about that.

What would that be like?

I don't have to go through that myself in life to be able to really stop and wonder about someone else's story and take care and really think about it.

And yeah, we're really excited for everything you get.

Good.

Good.

Well, you'll have to let me know what you think as people who are often in the same position as me.

We'll listen with a cup of tea.

Yes.

Please, as I'd expect.

It's always fun for me when I'm listening to someone who's hosted a show I enjoy and then speaking with them.

I'm like, oh, this is so cool.

It doesn't get old for me.

So thank you so much.

Really appreciate you taking the time.

I know it's later over there.

Yes.

Thank you so much, Anna.

Thank you so much.

It was so lovely to do the exact same thing back at you.

Awesome.

Hear your guys' voices and meet them kind of in the flesh on a laptop screen.

And I was also thinking, you know, earlier, for us, it would be so glamorous if we were ever in the UK doing something.

I mean, wow, that would be, whoa.

Yeah.

I mean, over the moon.

Get to go to Europe to record something?

Yeah.

To Europe.

Yeah.

Well, come on over to Europe and I will take you for some like glamorous cocktails or something.

And then it can really reinforce that image.

Oh, wow.

I'm going to start my story search over there right now.

One last fun thing.

I want to ask, you know, are you listening to anything right now?

Do you have any kind of recommendation for our listeners?

It could be true crime or not.

It could be podcast.

It could be a great documentary you just watched.

It doesn't have to be favorite of all time.

Is there anything that like you're thinking about and loving right now?

Oh, God, I was actually asked this question on a podcast like two days ago and I gave the worst answer because I'm you know when you're so deep, I'm sure you guys experienced this when you're like so deep in the hard bit of making a show and everything's so heavy and you're just like tired and the idea of listening to something that is like relevant to the work you do, okay, true crime or like serious or documentary or whatever, is just far too much.

So I've been going back into the normal gossip archives and just been gossiping.

Just gossip, gossip, gossip.

I'm on the stair master, gossip.

I'm walking the dog, gossip.

I'm not doing anything serious at the moment.

So, um, yeah, I don't have a good answer for you, I'm afraid.

Just gossip.

That's a great pick.

Actually, um, an associate producer we worked with previously, she recommended that show to us.

It was the first time I had heard it.

This was years ago, and it's awesome.

It's great.

Yeah, it's such a fun show.

It's so good.

That's a cup of tea of a show.

Yeah, that's a warm cup of tea.

It really is.

Yeah.

Well, awesome.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Thanks so much, Anna, for joining us on the podcast.

That was such a fun interview.

I know, like, to state the obvious, we love podcasts, but getting to speak with someone and I've been listening to their voice as the host, I'm always like, oh, that's so cool.

It is so cool.

Yeah.

Always love to talk to a fellow podcaster and hear what they're thinking about, especially someone working in true crime.

So it was great to hear Anna's perspective.

Can't wait for season three.

Yes.

And I actually have two recommendations today.

Ooh, yay.

One's a podcast, one's a documentary.

Okay.

So the podcast rec.

Okay.

I'm going to start with a story.

Okay, great.

The story is when these fires were happening in California earlier this year in January, I could see the Palisades fire from my living room.

We were that close to it.

And we left.

We went to Las Vegas because we were concerned about the air quality.

We have a toddler and we had lots of work to do.

So we're like, okay, hotel rooms in Southern California in that moment, very expensive.

Let's just go to Las Vegas.

They're cheap.

And we get a hotel room there.

My husband was on calls all day.

It's a small room.

And so I'm like, okay, I have to take my daughter somewhere to entertain her.

So I'm driving around to go to the park.

It's really cold.

She's a California girl.

She's not excited about the fact that it's cold.

She doesn't want to wear a jacket.

It feels like restrictive.

So I'm like, I got to find somewhere she can run around.

So we go to the kids museum.

She rips through the kids museum.

She's still got energy.

I'm like, what do we do?

I see this mall across the street with like a goodwill in it.

And I'm like, wow, I love thrift shops.

Let's go there.

Love it.

Great way to spend an afternoon.

Great way to spend an afternoon.

She is so uncooperative.

And I'm like, let's just get out of here.

I'm just going to let her run around this mall.

We then go into the mall so she can just run,

which she does.

And then as I pull her off this door, it starts opening.

So I go in and then I realize it's in like an aquarium type situation.

So I'm like, okay, let's just get.

two tickets to whatever this is.

I'm not putting a lot of thought into this.

This place is called SeQuest.

And I'll start the story with, I'm not glad I gave them my money, but I have to talk about this.

It was nuts.

We get our tickets, which involves tokens.

And I'm like, well, what are these tokens for?

He's like, food for the animals.

And I'm like, okay.

Okay.

So is it a zoo?

Is it an aquarium?

You feed the animals.

Like, what's going on here?

So the first little exhibit is these otters.

They look like weasels, but they go in the water.

I think they were like small otters.

Wow.

And the wall that these, I'm going somewhere with this, that these otters are behind is not that big.

And I turned to the guy.

Like you could reach your hand over.

Kind of, yeah, because they can kind of stand up quite long.

And so they know that we have these tokens.

They're waiting.

The otters.

Yeah.

And so they're kind of like,

they want the food.

And I realize we're the first people in here.

These animals are hungry.

And so.

I'm like, okay.

And I give them the food or whatever.

And this kind of like apathetic employee, I ask him, I go, it looks like they could kind of get out of there.

Like they're jumping and climbing really high.

And he goes, they get out all the time.

And I'm like, oh my God.

And what are running around the mall?

Yeah, I don't even know.

I'm just like, exactly.

That's happening.

Yeah.

And so I just pick up my kid and I'm like, we're going to the next exhibit.

And so it's iguanas.

Okay.

Okay.

I'm like, are these typical animals for an aquarium?

I thought I thought it would be fish.

This is a great question.

Same here.

So I'm like, well, iguanas, you know, I'm picturing like a very still animal.

I don't picture iguanas like, you know, doing a lot.

I picture them sunbathing.

So I also don't picture myself next to them.

So we go into this door.

It's like no employee necessary for entry.

And I'm like, okay, why would there be?

I have my kid in my arms and I have food in my left hand.

Open the door.

These iguanas, I've never seen an animal move so quickly.

I mean, I was rushed by two iguanas for this food and I'm throwing the food.

I'm trying to run back out of there.

My kids holding me going, Mama, no.

Anyway, so had this very strange, bombarded, very strange experience at this place called Sequest that I wouldn't do it again, okay?

No.

I feel so sad for the animals.

It was truly sad.

Okay, so I was listening to this podcast.

This is my wreck.

It's called Big Time,

an Apple podcast, and it is true true crime, but not necessarily like crime the way we normally think about it.

Okay.

And there's a two-part episode about a shark, Miss Helen, that goes missing from an aquarium in Texas.

Oh my gosh.

And the second part of this two-part series is about the owner of that aquarium, and he owns SeQuest.

Wow.

Or did, and is no longer involved because of things they'll get into in the show.

But I was like, SeQuest, Sequest.

I've heard of Sequest.

Yeah.

It's like, it's everything I thought it was.

Wow.

Okay.

It's like weird and questionable.

Well, I'm going to listen to it.

Yeah.

But Big Time is great.

And I really recommend it.

And that's my podcast rec.

Great.

My other rec is a documentary.

And I think you'll love this or you'll be like, I've already watched this 10 times.

Netflix, The Twister, Caught in the Storm.

The Twister, like the movie?

It's a documentary about a massive tornado in 2011 in Joplin, Missouri.

Okay.

Natural disaster.

Didn't have to watch the documentary because I went there after this happened and helped.

Oh, okay.

Well, there you go.

But yeah, no, I mean, I would be interested in the documentary.

Tell me about it.

Yeah, it was, they follow people who were just going about their life that day.

Like there's a kid working on a fro-yo shop.

There were kids graduating from their high school graduation and that ceremony.

And, you know, the whole place is just obliterated by this tornado.

And there's, you know, one really terrifying moment where, I mean, there's so many, but apparently you just know about tornadoes if you live in tornado country.

You probably know that.

But these people were caught in it and they saw blue skies and they were yelling to the other people around them who were maybe less familiar, stay down, stay down, because they were in the eye of the tornado.

Oh, yeah.

So they could see up and see blue skies, but they knew they were still in it.

They were just in the center.

Wow.

Yeah.

And they survived to tell, tell about this.

Talk about it.

That's good.

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah.

No, I will definitely watch this.

Yeah, not everyone survives, but

it was a great documentary.

And, you know, these were kids at the time that they were interviewing.

And now they're adults reflecting on it.

And it's just stuck with them.

Was it a recent documentary?

Yeah, I think it's 2025.

Okay.

Yeah.

2025 documentary.

But yeah, I remember that tornado because that was a, you know, there's a lot of tornadoes, but sometimes it's a particularly bad one, or if it, especially if it touches down in an area where there's a lot of homes and whatnot destruction.

So that was a bad one.

And I went with some people and did like some food delivery kind of volunteering after it happened because I was living in Tulsa at the time, which is pretty close to Joplin, actually.

But I remember we drove through some of the neighborhoods where it had, you know, touched down and just taken out a bunch of houses and stuff.

And it was just wild how you couldn't recognize, like, you didn't know what street it was or what address.

Like people sort of had to figure out even even what their house was because it was so

just stripped everything you know kind of destroyed yeah I remember there's a moment about that in the documentary where they're trying to get home but there's all the landmarks you're used to are gone there's no more streets yeah everything has debris in it yeah I was um I mean it's it's incredibly sad and there were lives lost and Joplin really came together afterwards and that was a nice thing to see but obviously a very sad thing.

Yeah.

Well, I'll watch it.

Thanks for the recommendation.

Yeah.

And that's our episode.

Thanks for listening.

We'll see you next week.

If you have a story for us, we would love to hear it.

Our email is theknife at exactlyrightmedia.com, or you can follow us on Instagram at the Knife Podcast or Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast.

This has been an exactly right production, hosted and produced by me, Hannah Smith, and me, Patia Eaton.

Our producers are Tom Breifogel and Alexa Samorosi.

This episode was mixed by Tom Breifogel.

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.

Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.

Executive produced by Karen Kilgare, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.

Betrayal Weekly is back for season two with brand new stories.

The detective comes driving up fast and just like screeches right in the parking lot.

I swear I'm not crazy, but I think he poisoned me.

I feel trapped.

My breathing changes.

I realize, wow, like he is not a mentor.

He's pretty much a monster.

But these aren't just stories of destruction.

They're stories of survival.

I'm going to tell my story and I'm going to hold my head up.

Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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