Hijacked

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Drew and Sue and Eminem's Minis.

And baking the surprise birthday cake for Lou.

And Sue forgetting that her oven doesn't really work.

And Drew remembering that they don't have flour.

And Lou getting home early from work, which he never does.

And Drew and Sue using the rest of the tubes of Eminem's minis as party poppers instead.

I think this is one of those moments where people say, it's the thought that counts.

Eminem's, it's more fun together.

This story contains adult content and language.

Listener discretion is advised.

As they're having this gun battle, thousands of feet up in the air, many of the bullets start to puncture the aircraft.

I thought we were going to die then.

Welcome to The Knife.

I'm Paisha Eaton.

I'm Hannah Smith.

This week we speak with Jackie Flug about a life-altering experience she had in 1985 when she survived a plane hijacking.

Jackie was a passenger on Egypt Air 648.

Her story is empowering, but also terrifying, and Jackie goes into great detail about what she saw and experienced that day.

So please be aware of that and take care while listening.

Let's get into the interview.

I am Jackie Flug, and I am survivor of the Egypt Air 648 hijacking on November the 24th of 1985.

I was born and raised in the Houston area, Houston, Texas, and I went to college to become a teacher.

And there's always this nudge to go overseas, to teach overseas at the American schools.

My first job was in Stavanger, Norway, teaching at the Stavanger American School.

And then I met and married my first husband, and his name is Scott Flug.

And we both got jobs the following year in Cairo, Egypt.

And I was teaching special education at that school, the American school there.

We were together for about a year and a half before we decided to get married.

I was 30 when we got married.

And I believe he was 26.

This was 1985.

Cairo was quickly modernizing and Jackie and Scott, they were excited to be there.

When they weren't teaching, they had all kinds of adventures.

They visited the ancient pyramids.

They studied Arabic.

They sailed the Nile River more than once.

Scott also coached the girls' volleyball team at Cairo American College.

And the team was good, really good.

That November, they were invited to Athens, Greece for a tournament.

Of course, Scott would be going.

Jackie decided it would be fun to tag along and cheer on the team.

So Scott had flown out the day before, took his team to Athens, called me and let me know what hotel they were staying in.

The next day I flew in because I still had to work.

I was at the volleyball games in the gym at this American school in Athens, Greece.

Following the team, I was in the stands cheering them on.

And they kept winning, winning and winning.

And they have another game and they won it.

And every time they won, it seemed like the game might be interfering with the flight that I was going to take to go home.

So I got on the phone and called and changed my flight from a afternoon flight to the last flight out on Egypt Air 648.

And then it was obvious to me and them that they were going into the championship game.

And I knew I couldn't be there.

And I was really sad about that.

But I had to get on back to work the next day.

This was November the 23rd of 1985.

And while they were getting ready for the championship game, I said goodbye, kissed Scott, said goodbye to the girls, and off I went in a taxi over to the Athens airport.

When I walked into the Athens airport, I could tell that security had just about quadrupled from the time I was there.

just two or three days before.

And we were standing in these long lines, and I was in one particular line for security.

And I noticed that they were going through everyone's bags, putting one hand in their bag, completely putting their whole hand in their bag.

And I remember standing there thinking,

oh my gosh, they're not really doing such a great job.

If I had something in here that wasn't dangerous, I wonder if they would even find it.

That thought came to me.

And also when I was standing in line, someone

just cut right on in front of me.

And I remember thinking, oh my gosh, this line is long enough not to have someone to cut in.

I didn't say anything to the person, but I was sort of upset and sort of mad.

And as I got closer, they did the same thing to my luggage, put their hand in and went through one side to the others, pushed up clothes in the air and put them back down and closed my bag up and I carried on and went over to the area where we were taking off.

Jackie had changed her flight hoping to see more of the volleyball tournament.

It was the kind of small decision that we make all the time, a simple change of plans.

Most days, it wouldn't mean a thing, but today it would mean everything.

In fact, it would change the course of Jackie's life.

She was originally booked on a 2 p.m.

flight, which had already landed back in Cairo.

Now she was on Egypt Air 648, the last flight of the day.

It was already dark outside when she boarded the plane and took her seat for what she expected to be a short flight, just under two hours.

She started to think about what she would do that evening when she was back in Cairo.

She had plans to celebrate Thanksgiving with some American friends.

You know, I was really focused on getting back home because

I was headed to meet some people for a Thanksgiving dinner.

And I had just purchased when I was in Athens, I had purchased Bruce Springsteen's latest release on a tape, Born in the USA.

And I thought, I'm going to listen to this.

So I plugged it in and started listening to Born in the USA.

And everybody was taking their seats.

It's women, men, babies,

children, all sorts of different people from all kinds of nations, it felt like, and different languages.

And about 15 minutes after takeoff, I'm still listening to my Bruce Springsteen tape and

I feel someone hit me, butt me.

And I looked up and took my headphones off thinking, why is somebody in the aisle?

We're supposed to be seated down.

And that's when I saw the hijackers standing up.

Two in the front, one in the back.

One of the hijackers in the front had a gun and a grenade in his hand.

And he said, you're being hijacked hijacked by the Egypt revolution.

And if you do what you're told, you would not get hurt.

And I believe that.

And also on the plane, there was this

total

confusion and fear

and

not knowing what to do from everyone, especially the moms with kids.

were certainly afraid and screaming.

What is the sort of processing your brain is doing of what you're seeing and hearing, having been only two seconds ago that you're listening to born in the USA, just ready to get back to your life teaching?

Yeah, it's quite the contrast.

It's not just what you said, but it's also one moment I'm safe and one moment I'm not.

One moment I'm alive and one moment I'm wondering if I'm going to die.

One moment there's this idea of having Thanksgiving dinner swirling around in my head for turkey and dressing and mashed potatoes.

And then the next moment there's hijackers with guns yelling at us.

God,

I'm only 30 years old.

How can this be happening?

And

When I put my head in my hands and I'm thinking this and tears are coming down my face, the hijacker next to me with the grenade in his hand hit me on the head with his gun to get my attention on the left side of my head.

And I looked up and he put his face in my face and said,

are you scared, lady?

And I said,

I am good.

And the man next to me, this Egyptian man, this businessman, that I had befriended early on,

starts to yell at the hijacker in Arabic.

And of course, I don't know what they're saying.

And then the hijacker is yelling at the man in Arabic.

And I'm guessing that the conversation is leave her alone.

And maybe the hijacker said, you'll be dead if you get in the middle of this.

I don't know really what they were saying, but I put my hand on the man's, the businessman, Egyptian man's knee to my right and said, it's okay, it's okay.

Because all I could think think of was, oh my God, please don't have an argument with this hijacker that's got a grenade and a gun in his hand.

Something started to happen to me that was really interesting.

And that was my inner voice started to kick in and coming up with ideas.

And I started to listen because I had a feeling that they might have been coming after the Americans.

And what happened is they came after the Americans Americans and the Israelis.

A group called the Egypt Revolution would eventually take credit for this attack, but the three hijackers had links to both Muamar Gaddafi and Abu Nadal, the notoriously violent leader of the ANO.

The ANO alone was responsible for 90 terrorist attacks between 1974 and 1992.

And Jackie happened to find herself right in the middle of one of these terrorist attacks, 30,000 feet in the air.

Immediately, she said time slowed down and her brain or her inner voice, whatever you want to call it, jumped into action, looking for a plan, a way to help her survive this.

Jackie is from Texas and she studied Spanish in school and she thought, maybe she could pass herself off as Mexican.

She believed, probably correctly, that this would make her less of a target than if the hijackers knew she was from the United States.

I thought, oh,

I know a little bit of Spanish.

Maybe I can say something to get me through.

But then they started to take passports, and I knew that was it.

And what they would do

is they would make someone stand up with a gun to them.

And they had to relinquish their passport.

If they didn't have it on them, they had to get it in their bag or their purse.

And they relinquished the passports, and all the men had to take off their ties and they had a briefcase, an empty briefcase, and they were putting the passports and the men's neckties in the briefcase.

And they did this from the beginning to all the way toward the back.

Little did we know, there were three air marshals on board.

And so what I have learned over the years since this hijacking is that

the airport knew, the airport knew that there might be some kind of problems on some of the aircrafts that day.

So they had placed air marshals on board many of the aircrafts.

And there were three.

And one of them, instead of pulling out his passport, pulls out a gun.

And he shoots the man, the hijacker that seemed to be the leader of the pack, shoots them and ended up killing him.

But when he shot him, that hijacker also retaliated and shot back, as well as the other two hijackers shot at him.

And we all sort of ducked away from the bullets.

But as they're having this gun battle, thousands of feet up in the air,

one of the bullets or many of the bullets start to puncture the aircraft.

And we immediately fall in the sky.

And I thought we were going to die then.

Jackie writes about this moment in her book, Miles to Go Before I Sleep, saying, in a matter of seconds, we dropped like a rock, losing 20,000 feet of altitude.

This caused the cabin to depressurize and left us gasping for air.

It was pure pandemonium.

Passengers were screaming and shouting amid total chaos.

During the descent, there was a sudden swoosh as the orange oxygen masks dropped from above.

I pulled mine over my face, but no air came out.

I take it and I just put it on my face, and I can't breathe.

What you're supposed to do was to take the mask and yank the cord to start the flow of oxygen.

Well, I didn't, and I hadn't been listening to these flood attendants that tell me what to do, and so I was struggling.

The hijacker to my left hits the woman to my right to say, help her.

Isn't that interesting?

Help her.

And the woman helps me, and I got flow of oxygen into my mask, and I started to breathe.

Wow.

Yeah.

You know, as you were talking about the plane, nosediving and this just horrible, chaotic scene that's going down.

My mind was going to what's happening in the cockpit because you had said the hijackers took over the plane, but the original pilot and co-pilot are still physically flying the plane.

The hijackers are not flying the plane.

But are they making demands or had they made any demands at this time?

And what were those demands, as far as you know?

Here's what their demands were.

Of course, we don't know this because we are not privy to what's happening

other than you're being hijacked by the Egypt Revolution.

And if you did what you were told, you would not get hurt.

That's all that we ever heard from anyone.

Their demands were land somewhere to refuel and go over to Libya.

That was the request of the hijackers.

And if when we did land, if they didn't get what they wanted, they were going to shoot people one by one, first with the Israelis and then with the Americans.

But at the time, you don't know this plan or what the hijackers are even asking for.

You just know it's super dark out and you're somewhere over the Mediterranean.

So then what happens?

yes when the pilot starts to radio the different airports around the area for us to land because we were running out of fuel by this time and we had to land somewhere to refuel and he had radio different airports close by and they all said no do not come here we do not want to hijacked aircraft The pilot started to head toward Malta, Valletta Malta, which is an island in the Mediterranean.

and Malta Security said, do not land here.

And it's in the middle of the night.

It's late at night.

And our pilot said, I have to land this aircraft.

There are 98 people on board.

And we've got three hijackers on board.

And I have to land this aircraft.

We're about to fall into the sea.

They continue to say, do not land here.

And the pilot gets close to the Malta airport and he sees the runway and it's all lit up and he starts to land our aircraft.

While he's in the process of landing our aircraft, Malta is saying, do not land here, do not land here.

And

the airport, the Malti, the Malta airport turned off all the runway lights.

So we were in the dark as he's about to land.

We're in the dark.

And there was a plane that was about to take off that was told not to move because there was a hijacked aircraft close by.

So he was waiting and he saw what had happened.

And that pilot turned his aircraft so that his lights could shine a little bit onto the runway.

And our pilot landed our aircraft by the lights of another.

aircraft.

So thank you to that pilot on the other aircraft for seeing that.

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Of course, none of the passengers, including Jackie, know any of this at that time.

They don't know that they narrowly escaped a crash landing and that they were saved by the lights of another plane illuminating the ground.

That's something that really sticks out to me about Jackie's story.

So much is happening on that plane.

But for those being held hostage, they know very little.

What Jackie would find out later is that the pilot intentionally went in for a rough landing.

He was trying to pop the tires of the plane so that it wouldn't be able to take off again.

Jackie also notes in her book that the hijackers were very caught off guard by the rough, sudden landing.

And unfortunately, he wasn't able to blow out the tires.

But when we landed, that's when things started to take place.

And I got moved again.

So I got moved from the front to the back, to the middle.

And now I am asked to stand up,

Jackie Fluke.

I stand up and the two hijackers take me to the front.

Jackie had been grouped with the other Americans on board.

There were three of them, Jackie, a woman named Scarlett Marie Rogenkamp, and a man named Patrick Scott Baker.

The hijackers brought all three Americans to the front of the plane.

Patrick's first, and I'm behind Patrick, and Scarlett is behind me, standing up.

They tie all three of our hands behind our backs with the neckties, and they immediately push Patrick onto the aisle seat.

Well, I had a choice.

As silly as that may sound, I had a choice.

I had a choice now to take the middle seat or the window seat.

And I decided I was going to just take the middle seat.

And

that inner voice starts to speak again.

I heard, take the window seat, get over there, take the window seat.

And I sort of argued with it in my head.

I'm not going to take the window seat.

If I take the window seat, I have to go around Patrick's legs and I have to throw my body into the middle seat.

And that's easier than throwing my body into the window seat.

So I'm having a conversation in my head and I'm telling you, this lasted for just a second or two.

All right, I'll take the window seat.

So that's what I sort of said in my head.

So I went past Patrick's legs and bypassed the middle seat and went over to the window seat.

Scarlett was in the middle seat, Patrick was on the aisle, and I was on the window seat.

Did you find out their names later?

Or did you speak with them when you were on the plane?

You know, were you able to sort of talk?

Yeah.

What was that like?

When we finally were all three together, Patrick says to Scarlett and myself, so where are you girls from?

Oh my God.

I started to giggle.

Like, oh, my God, what a question to ask at a time like this.

And I sort of giggled.

I said, oh, I'm from Houston.

And Scarlett said, what a thing to be asking at a time like this.

And I laughed again.

And I thought, well, that is true.

What a thing to be asking at a time like this.

But I started to laugh.

And I thought, oh, my God, that feels good to laugh.

And that was it.

That was the conversation.

And Scarlett kept going to me.

And what are you doing?

And I said, I'm praying.

I'm thinking.

And again, I don't know her, just met her.

And she said, will you say a prayer for me?

I said, sure, yeah.

She said, I want you to pray the Hail Mary.

And I grew up as Catholic, and I knew that prayer.

And so I said it, Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.

And on and on and on, pray for sinners now at the hour of our death.

Amen.

Jackie learned later that after the plane landed in Malta, the hijackers began negotiations with Maltese authorities.

They agreed to let medics approach the plane to tend to the wounded.

The medics removed the hijacker who had been shot and killed, as well as the air marshal who killed him.

The air marshal was in critical condition but did end up surviving.

And then the hijackers did something surprising.

They started to let people go free.

They freed multiple Filipino passengers and Egyptian passengers, as well as two injured flight attendants.

To Jackie and the other hostages, seeing people safely exit the plane filled them with hope that this was all going to be okay.

So that's when I thought, okay,

all right.

This is okay.

You know, they're letting people go.

That's awesome.

And I thought, because I'm a woman, maybe I would be let go.

And some of these women would be let go and some of the women with their children would be let go.

That wasn't the case at all.

And they immediately started to take the Israeli women.

They knew who they were.

So they called these two Israeli women, one of the Israeli women, and she went up gladly, thinking she might be released.

And

as she walked through the door, they shot her in the head.

And that's when everything changed inside the airplane.

That's when everything changed.

And that perhaps we aren't going to be getting out of this after all.

And so there was such a gasp of,

it's like somebody let the air out in the plane and was full of hope.

And now there was no more hope whatsoever inside that aircraft.

And I could tell the moms that the little kids were even more nervous.

And

then they asked for the next Israeli woman.

Five minutes went by.

They didn't give them the fuel.

So they come after the next Israeli woman.

Well, we know now what they're doing.

We don't get it about the five minutes, but we figured it out.

Like after so many minutes, they'll be bringing another passenger.

And so that's what they did.

And next off was Tamara Artsy.

Well, she knew what was happening with her friend, Nitza Mendelssohn.

And so

she fought and she fought.

And in the fighting, she

was shot, but it missed her head.

And then when they threw her down the aircraft, like they do everybody else, they shoot them and throw their body down the aircraft onto the tarmac.

She starts to move.

And when she starts to move, I could see that.

And I thought, oh my gosh, she needs to stop moving.

Play dead.

That's what I was thinking.

Play dead.

Play dead.

Pretend you're dead.

Because Jackie decided to take the window seat, she had a clear view of everything that was happening.

She decided that if this happened to her, if she was shot and somehow survived, that she would lay as still as possible and pretend to be dead.

The hijackers were demanding fuel for the plane.

They wanted to fly to Libya.

The Maltese authorities were demanding that they release all the hostages first.

It was a standoff.

The hijackers shot both Tamar Artsi and Nitsen Mendelssohn and said they would continue to kill a hostage every 15 minutes until they received fuel for the plane.

They then turned to the Americans.

Patrick was first.

He stood there in the doorway and they shot him.

Every time it happened, I closed my eyes and I was right up front.

I was on the bulkhead on the right side.

And

I closed my eyes and I could hear the thud of hitting the body hitting the tarmac.

I went right into prayer.

And then I also went into thinking about my life.

That was kind of a moment where I knew I was about to die and started thinking about my life.

And I thought about

just hours before

that

I was so mad at somebody for cutting in front of me the airport.

And it didn't matter anymore.

And I thought about my life and what I had done and with my life of 30 years and

And some of it I was proud of and some of it I questioned and

I worried about what other people thought of me.

And

I was,

you know, wanting to wear the right clothes and drive the right car and have the right friends, and sometimes didn't always tell the truth.

So I thought about all these things, and then I started to, one by one,

put people in front of me that I loved and told them what I loved about them,

how much I appreciated them,

what I learned from them

and said goodbye one by one to my mom, my dad, in spirit, in thought.

My friends, Scott,

and

felt like I was ready.

Jackie watched as the other American, Scarlett, was also shot and thrown from the plane.

And Jackie knew she was next.

15 minutes passed and nothing happened.

And then more time passed, but nothing happened.

And then hours went by and still nothing happened.

At this point, the sun had risen.

It was about 10 a.m.

Jackie said that the passengers had begun to feel hopeful yet again.

Maybe the hijackers' demands were being met.

Maybe they would all be set free.

Jackie looked behind her and saw her original seatmate.

And he said to her, you're going to make it.

You're going to make it.

You're going to make it.

And

I said, if I don't,

please go to the American school and tell Scott how much I love him.

And then it wasn't, but a few minutes after that,

the doors to the cockpit open.

The hijacker comes out.

They open the door to the aircraft.

They pick me from my seat.

from the window seat and brought me to the front.

I got out to the platform and I saw that it was such a beautiful day.

There's something so awful to be happening.

And

I felt a gun to my head.

At first, there was a thought.

My mind was thinking, oh, just turn to the hijacker and

kick him where it hurts and throw my body down the staircase.

That was this idea.

It came from my mind, and

I

got a message.

Don't fight, don't fight.

And

as soon as that, I

got shot in the head.

It felt like my eyes went to the back of my head, and I

rolled around.

I could feel my rolling and couldn't feel my body hitting the staircase, the metal staircase, but I felt I was rolling of some sort.

And then it all stopped.

And

yeah, then I found myself, I opened my eyes quietly, opened my eyes and carefully, and

I noticed that I was now on the tarmac and I was right underneath the metal staircase.

And the way I landed is my left hand was underneath my chest, and my right arm was over my head.

And

I could just feel how

my left arm was falling asleep and I knew that I needed to move it at some point

and when I landed I wasn't aware how much time I was there but it turned out I was there for five hours in and out of consciousness and the first thought that came to me was be still you're going to be okay but you just need to be still

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Jackie had been shot in the back of the head.

The hijackers made their own bullets, and the one used to shoot her had a low charge of powder, which is probably why it didn't kill her.

The bullet shattered the back of her skull and lodged into her brain in the right side.

But she was alive.

It was cold, and at one point it began to lightly rain, which she remembers feeling excruciatingly uncomfortable.

Jackie had no ability to measure time at all.

But at some point, hours later, she heard voices.

And I heard a few men around me.

And I thought, oh my God, these are the hijackers.

What do they want with me now?

Are they going to take me somewhere and put me into something or take me and shoot me and make sure I'm dead?

And so I thought these were the hijackers.

And I heard one of the men's voice say,

well, let's do this one right.

That's what he said.

And I felt my body get lifted up

and

thrown face down onto a metal bed.

And I felt the metal bed lift up and go into a vehicle.

And I heard the vehicle shut.

And I heard these three men talking.

And I'm thinking, oh my gosh, where do the hijackers taking me now?

And I'm in a vehicle.

This can't be good.

And there is a man to my right.

And little did I know that he didn't like looking at the gunshot wound on my head.

So he decided to flip me over.

So he flipped me over.

And when he did that, I gasped for air.

And they start screaming and yelling.

And I feel the vehicle turn course of direction.

We're not going one way anymore.

We're going another.

They're screaming and yelling.

And I thought, well, these voices don't sound like the hijackers.

Who could this be?

And the man looked at me and he says, honey, you're alive and you're going to be okay.

And I said,

are you guys the good guys or the bad guys?

And he said, honey, we're the medics.

You're going to be okay.

And

I sort of passed out.

And the the next thing I know, I'm waking up in a hospital.

The hijackers had made a deal with the hostage negotiators to have food delivered to the plane.

And in exchange, they allowed medics to come and remove the bodies from the tarmac.

The medics had been transporting Jackie to the morgue when they realized she was alive and then quickly changed course and headed to the hospital.

And so before we get into this chapter of the surgeries and your recovery, what can you tell us about what was continuing to transpire with Egypt Air Flight 648?

Yes, but while I was in the hospital, there was a storming of the plane that took place.

And the negotiator who was negotiating that whole event was not

trained in negotiating, and I'm not sure why he was given that opportunity to do that.

But the whole idea was that they were going to send a commando team.

And it was during this time that the United States and other countries had come to the area to help out.

And the commando team, the negotiation person wanted the Egyptian commandos to do this because it was an Egyptian airliner.

And so the U.S.

team was still there, but they were not allowed to help out.

And the idea that they had, this commando team was that they were going to open up the back of the aircraft where the luggage area was

and put an explosive of some kind, something that was supposed to be just

got someone's attention in the back.

They would look back to see what that little noise was.

And when they did that, the commando team would come up the stairs and storm the aircraft.

And

what happened was that the explosion was too big.

It was so big that it blew up the whole back of the aircraft.

Of course, it had to go somewhere, so it sent a fireball down

the aisle and out the aircraft.

So some of the commando teams were burned.

They had burns on them because the fireball went out the door.

The windows were blown out.

And also when that happened, people were running everywhere to get off the plane.

And the orders for the commando team was to just shoot people, just start shooting people.

And some innocent people got shot.

And

yeah.

So

this, you know, negotiation rescue mission went terribly wrong.

And so then hostages still on the plane then ended up dying from the fire and from being shot by the rescue team.

Yes, yeah.

If you made it out of the aircraft as it's catching on fire, if you were lucky to make it out, which not a lot of people were,

then you were running on the tarmac for your life and the commando team were shooting people.

So you were lucky to get out of the plane and lucky to be running around and hopefully not shot.

It was a mess.

It was so sad.

Heartbreaking.

Five hostages were shot by the hijackers and thrown from the plane.

Tamar Artzi, Jackie Flug, and Patrick Baker all survived.

Scarlett Rogenkamp and Nitson Mendelsohn did not.

The majority of people who died that day died from the botched rescue attempt when the plane was engulfed in flames.

54 passengers died, along with two crew members and one of the hijackers.

The negotiations went so horribly wrong that day that it has become a case study in what not to do in a hostage negotiation situation.

I want to just now move into your

this recovery begins.

You're transported by ambulance to a hospital.

Now doctors are starting to work on you.

There's a bullet in your head.

It's in the back of your head.

Tell us about that.

Yes.

I was in one of the rooms for a long time, but I'm also in and out of consciousness, so I don't really know what time time means to me yet.

But when I was awake, I could tell something was wrong with my vision.

And I could tell that something was off.

But as I'm waiting around and in and out of consciousness, I'm just waiting.

And then the next thing I know, I'm in surgery to remove the bullet.

I don't know what was happening during that time.

But later on, as I start to heal and ended up today, 40 years later, I went back to Malta and I found out

that they waited.

The doctor waited.

I didn't know that at the time, but the doctor waited.

He felt like I wasn't strong enough.

So he waited.

I didn't go into surgery right away.

He waited a day because he thought I wasn't strong enough to make it out of the surgery.

And also, there was a hijacker.

Eventually, I found this out.

The hijacker who shot everyone also escaped from the plane and was one of those people that was running around the tarmac and he

was also hurt by the pilots and when we landed and they started the air raid onto the plane hours later the pilot took the axe and hit him over the head and so he was part of the group that went into the hospital and they put him in the hospital and eventually patrick Baker, who lived, pointed out that he was a hijacker.

So they took him out and put him under arrest, even though he was under.

But yeah, so I'm now leaving Malta airport and the Red Cross is taking me, which I thought was really cool.

And we're in a Red Cross airport that has all these cots and beds.

And I was in one of them.

And we're heading over to Launchettal, Germany, so I can recuperate in the Army hospital there in Launchettle, Germany.

And so you're flown to Germany.

That's where Scott flies to see you for the first time after this has all happened.

Yes.

How long were you in Germany before you returned to the United States?

I was there for a couple weeks, I think.

And then it was time to go back to the United States, to go home.

And we were told that we could go to Minneapolis, where Scott was from, or could go to Houston.

And I thought we should go to Houston because that was my support system there.

But Scott really wanted to go to Minneapolis and I got talked into that.

And that was fine because I love the snow and I love his family.

And I thought maybe that would be a good start for me.

And as it turned out, moving to Minnesota to be taken care of by June Flew, Scott's mother, was the biggest gift I could have ever gotten.

Jackie came back to the US and was met with a media circus.

Everyone wanted an interview.

But Jackie said she wouldn't be ready for that for years.

She needed to focus on her recovery.

After you get shot in the head, you might come out alive, but you don't come out the same ever.

There's always something that's going to be damaged.

And I was very, very scared.

very scared, still thinking the hijackers are going to come find me, even though I'm in Minnesota.

And eventually that sort of

dissipated, but I started to notice that I'd get lost a lot, even in the bedroom.

If I had a hard time finding my way from the bedroom to the bathroom, so we ended up having to put colored footsteps to go to which bedroom.

And then what color went with what?

And I forgot the color, where the color went to what room.

And I couldn't tell time anymore.

I knew it was 8:30, but what do you do at 8.30?

And then someone said, well, don't forget there's an 8.30 a.m.

and an 8.30 p.m.

Oh my gosh.

So what do people do at 8.30 in the morning and what people do at 8.30 at night?

And I couldn't count money anymore.

I had to relearn how to count money.

And my short-term memory was just about nothing.

And I did have long-term memory where I remembered from the past, the events and then past as well.

And then I started to have epileptic seizures as a result of being shot.

The physical trauma to Jackie's brain was immense.

She writes about this in her book, saying, A neurologist explained that a layer of protective gel inside our heads normally provides a soft cushion or buffer between the brain and the skull.

In my case, the fluid had drained out the bullet hole in my head.

That meant whenever I moved, my brain pressed directly against my skull, causing shooting pain.

It would take about a year for doctors to find the right medicine that would help Jackie to stop her seizures.

The road to recovery was long and difficult.

And it wasn't just the physical pain that haunted her.

The emotional toll of now having to relearn things that you probably can't even remember how early in your life you understood 8 30 a.m 8.30 p.m.

And now here you are, 30 years old, having to relearn these basic things about just our day-to-day life.

How did that impact your relationship with Scott and the people close to you?

Quite challenging to be truthful about it all.

And also at that time, I had a master's degree.

So I had been through school.

And after I got shot in the head, I got tested.

My reading got tested and I was testing at a kindergarten reading level.

And then remembering, comprehending at a kindergarten reading level.

So all of a sudden, I don't have that reading level anymore.

And also my teaching career was ended because I couldn't keep up.

And then I started to hear things like, you're not the person I married.

You're not the person that was my friend.

And

I thought, how can I be?

I have gone through this massive experience.

Plus, I'm not just dealing with coming back and healing from a hostage situation.

I'm coming back and trying to heal from this trauma that took parts of my sight.

No longer have parts of my sight anymore.

You know, I have an epilepsy now.

So I was dealing with all that stuff.

And then some people would say, you're not that person anymore that I knew.

And I thought, I know I'm not.

And I was sure that I'd get her back.

I was sure of it.

But I never did.

Jackie says the reality is that she would never be the same person she was before before that plane flight, before the shooting, but she was so determined to keep going.

Jackie said this experience made her think about her life and her values in a way that she never had before.

She started to really think, what kind of person do I want to be?

So I started to just dig deep inside and started to get help along the way.

from people that helped me find a way out through therapists, through doctors, counselor.

If anyone suggested something that I should go see someone, it did not take long.

It was by the end of the day, I was on the phone with someone.

I uncovered every single rock to help me get back to some kind of normalcy, some kind of adjustment.

But I kept having this dream that I would open up this package from the hijacker and I would open it up and it'd be an explosion.

And the hijacker would say, haha, I got you now.

And that was a recurring dream, but definitely a post-traumatic stress syndrome.

I didn't want to go outside.

Scott and I moved in with his mom and dad and Hopkins in Minnesota at the time.

And I didn't want to get out of the house, but I started to a little by little.

And then I started to meet people and a little bit of meat started to come out.

But I did meet up with a therapist.

And, you know, things like this,

some of these situations we as humans find ourselves on sometimes takes a very long time to heal from, a very long time.

But I just did the work and I didn't give up and stayed the course and got the help that I needed along the way.

And all of a sudden, one day I started to laugh.

which is foreign to me at that time.

And one day I started to smile,

you know, little by little.

And, but it did not come because of just me.

It came because the angels were in my path that helped me get where I wanted to go.

The angels in human form that were there along the way.

Yeah.

And you talked about how you originally didn't want to go back to Minnesota.

You wanted to go back to Texas.

But it ends up because Scott wanted to go to Minnesota that that's where you go.

And it it ends up being this incredible gift because his mother takes excellent care of you.

Eventually, though, your relationship with Scott, you guys divorce.

He's, you know, having a very difficult time navigating this new life with this new version of you and accepting that.

And you have taken this healing journey and been so determined to look at your values and what's important in a new way.

How does that lead you to the next chapter?

After I divorced, I was single for about seven years and then I met my husband to be the second one.

We ended up having a son and I eventually wrote a book about this situation.

And when I first had this, somebody was saying, you should write a book.

I didn't even know what to write about because who wants to hear just about a story?

And as time went on, I started to learn some of the the lessons I was learning from the hijacking.

And once I started to learn the lessons, then I felt like I was ready to write a book.

So nine years after the hijacking, I started writing and 10 years after the hijacking, the book came out.

And now that book had all these things in it.

lessons that I learned and people that helped me get where I wanted to go and how I even came out of this idea of hatred and bitterness to more of forgiving and letting go and getting myself off the hook in the sense of holding on to such anger and bitterness.

Yeah, I mean, that's such a mountain to climb after something like that is not only done to you, but you're in this position of being forced to witness something just so incredibly horrific.

And, you know, one of those deaths is Scarlett.

How does the contact start between you and Scarlett's mother after the hijacking?

And can you tell me a little bit about those conversations?

Yeah, she found out my phone number.

She called me and I she wanted to know what Scarlett's last words were and what she was like and since I was the last one to see her.

And I told her that we said prayers together and I said the Hail Mary for her and she goes, yeah, she really likes that Hail Mary.

And we shared this conversation for, I don't know, maybe about 30 minutes.

And I think that she got what she needed and what she wanted.

And that was it.

Jackie's first book, Miles to Go Before I Sleep, chronicles the hijacking and her recovery.

She is releasing another book in 2025 called Wake Up.

It's time to say yes to creating a life worth loving.

In her new book, Jackie talks about saying yes to life.

She writes that after the hijacking and the years of recovering from her brain injury, life was still there waiting for her, the good stuff and the hard stuff.

She learned how to say yes to life to get back in the saddle and back on airplanes.

She knew if she didn't, her life would be smaller and she would have fewer opportunities to see the world.

And one of the stories she tells in this new book is her return to Malta.

I was going back to Malta to find as many people as I possibly could to say thank you for saving my life.

And I did.

And that is a beautiful story.

I started to write about these stories that I've experienced in my life.

And not about the hijacking, because I already wrote a book about that.

And that book is over 200 pages about the hijacking.

So it was more of stories I've experienced over time.

And also that book or my story launched a 25 year career in motivational speaking.

And I spoke in all over the world telling the story and the lessons that I learned from it.

And when I started to write another book years and years later, which is seven years ago for me anyway, I felt like there was so much of my story that hadn't been told.

And I retired after my 25 years of speaking on the circuit.

And I retired.

And during retirement, I started to shut down and I didn't even know it.

I continued to be a mom and a wife and a friend, but I was on autopilot, cruise control, sort of sleep at the wheel.

And I called my business coach, Mark LeBlanc, and I said, I think there's another book in me.

And little did I know that I would be on an entirely different adventure, a new journey.

I thought the journey after the hijacking was a big deal, but this journey was just as big.

But the book is called Wake Up.

It's time to say yes to creating a life worth loving.

Wake up to who you are.

Wake up to what is possible.

Wake up to a life worth loving.

Like I said, I didn't even know I was on this journey.

But what I was really doing was creating a new starting line to what is possible.

Most of us live our lives in quiet resignation and may not know it.

So the essence of the book, Wake Up, is to jolt people out of where we are and what we've given up.

where they've given up.

I gave up.

I gave up, but but didn't even know it i kept thinking i want more out of relationships i want more out of my marriage so now i'm in my second marriage i want more out of life so this book is for more joy more peace more passion more adventure more happiness more balance i'm excited about this book as you can probably tell

What an interview with Jackie.

That was intense.

When we first connected with Jackie about doing this interview, one of her concerns was that it had been so long since she had told the story.

And in speaking with her, it was so evident how well she was able to recall everything, which I think is just makes it so clear that something like this really never leaves you.

Yeah, she really was able to talk about it in vivid detail, which is really impressive, honestly, after going through something so traumatic.

And I imagine like her writing the book and then being an inspirational speaker for so many years, she has had a lot of practice speaking and telling her story.

And it's such an inspiring story.

I'm just so impressed by her.

She's so kind and thoughtful, introspective.

And just even like hearing of everything that she has survived is pretty wild.

Oh my gosh.

And that moment.

when she talked about how she had had that initial frustration with the men who had cut in front of of her in line.

And then you're realizing you're on this hijacked plane and you're thinking, why did I let that bother me?

It's like, wow, that is

how a near-death experience like that changes your perspective.

And we do so many interviews with people who have experienced trauma.

And I think that it's really important to maintain.

our composure, even when a story is getting really emotional, because it's not our story.

It's, it's theirs.

And sometimes it's hard, though.

It's really hard.

And in this one, I had a like moment where I was like, oh my gosh, I can feel that lump forming in my throat.

And it was actually the moment that Jackie talked about the other pilot at the Malta airport realizing what was happening, that the airport was going to abandon this hijacked plane by turning off all the lights and saying, like, don't land here.

We're not going to help you land here.

And he turns on his lights.

Yeah.

I assume that the airport did that in an effort to try to get them to like fly away and not land.

But the way Jackie told it is like, no, that's not an option.

They're almost out of fuel.

So it's like they have to land.

And the idea of landing like in the dark where you can't see the ground is so scary.

That pilot that turned on his lights,

he gave them the opportunity to save lives on that plane.

Yeah, it's very touching.

You know, I was telling my mom about the interview after we did it and I actually started crying a little bit when I told her that part just because I'm like, whoa.

You know, he had that moment of, okay, if I were in this pilot's shoes, I would want this for me.

And, you know, also to think of how the Malta airport handled that is devastating.

And that was a glimmer of hope within a really tragic story.

Yeah.

So, you know, Jackie has written and published two books, which we mentioned in the episode.

And we always like to read books that our interviewees have written.

You actually, you read the first book and I read the second book.

A lot of the first book was sort of covered in the episode, but I'm sure there's so much more in in there that's not.

So I'm just curious if there's anything else that stands out to you.

Yeah, the first book that Jackie wrote that I read is called Miles to Go Before I Sleep.

And it's an incredible retelling of not only the hijacking, but her life before and after.

And she really dives into

what happened on the plane in every detail that she has learned since and that she can remember.

And, you know, particularly her interactions with other passengers and how there's this sort of instantaneous bond that happened between them.

You know, you're watching someone walk to what will be either the end of their life or a chance to get to safety.

And especially the moments that she shares about sitting next to Scarlett in that seat in the last moments of her life.

I thought the book was incredible and I'll recommend it to anyone.

Awesome.

And Jackie just came out with a new book, Wake Up, It's Time to Say Yes to Creating a Life Worth Loving.

And this book sounds like it's very different from her first book.

In the beginning of the book, she opens it and acknowledges that, you know, she survived this plane hijacking.

It was this really intense, big thing that she went through at a relatively young age, at 30 years old.

And I just want to read this one segment because it kind of explains what's to come in the book.

She's talking about like that period of time as she's recovering from the plane hijacking.

She says, someone told me what happened to me was so huge and horrible.

How could anything else compare?

Perhaps because it was so big, I had gotten the big bad thing out of the way at an early age and nothing from then on can compare.

But she talks about life going on and that that's actually just didn't end up being true for her.

She went through a divorce.

At 48, she was diagnosed with stage three colon cancer.

When she had a six-year-old child, you know, she's dealt with like some really difficult bone breaking type of injuries and just sort of like the things in life that are hard.

And I really like the perspective she has in this book because she tells a lot of stories from her life.

She talks about like stories from childhood.

She talks about stories from her adulthood.

She goes on a European adventure with one of her friends and they like drive on the Audubon, which just sounds terrifying to me.

She talks about like going on a whitewater rafting trip and being really underprepared and scared.

And it sort of hit me when I was reading it, like going on an adventure, driving on the Audubon, like going on a whitewater rafting trip as an adult can be like a scary, adventurous thing, no matter what you've been through.

But I really appreciate the way that she's approached her life.

Like you could see it going a different way where she had this terrifying experience that many people like would never really know what that's like.

And then she could sort of shell up and have a small life and like no judgment to someone who reacts that way, but she has really gone the opposite where she is seeking out and continues to seek out ways to put herself in like situations where she's potentially taking risks or doing something uncomfortable because that is what is important to her about living life.

So that's kind of what her book is about.

Yeah, that's amazing.

I'd love to read it.

I also think it's such an interesting way to like lead into it about this big bad thing has already happened.

And so now it's like, I can handle whatever's next.

But part of, I think, the human condition and resilience is that the more something is in your past, it's like you're more focused on what's in front of you.

It doesn't mean that that ever becomes a small moment in time to her, but, you know, how long can you live in that moment?

And she's really stepped out of it.

And it was just a pleasure speaking with her.

Yeah, I agree.

So that's our episode for today.

We'll be back next week.

Thanks for listening.

If you have a story for us, we would love to hear it.

Our email is theknife at exactlyrightmedia.com or you can follow us on Instagram at the Knife Podcast or Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast.

This has been an Exactly Right Production, hosted and produced by me, Hannah Smith, and me, Patia Eaton.

Our producers are Tom Breifogel and Alexa Samorosi.

This episode was mixed by Tom Breifogel.

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.

Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.

Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.

Kevin and Rachel and Peanut M ⁇ Ms and an eight-hour road trip.

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