The Night Ellen Was Kidnapped

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He just reached through the window and put a gun to my head and told me not to look at him or he would shoot me.

Welcome to The Knife.

I'm Hannah Smith.

I'm Patia Eaton.

This week, we're speaking with a listener of the show.

Ellen tells us about something that happened to her back when she was in college.

She endured a bizarre and terrifying kidnapping.

There's a lot that's noteworthy about Ellen's story, especially how she reacted in the moment and the ripple effects of this event in her life.

Let's get into it.

My name is Ellen.

I am originally from Columbus, Ohio, and I currently live in Cleveland, Ohio.

So Ohio State is there, so it's definitely got the feel of like a college town.

Like where we lived was a pretty like safe area.

You know, we were outside a lot, like just running around and having fun.

So I went away to college in Pennsylvania for a couple years and I was playing soccer at a small private school there.

And then I decided to move back to Columbus.

I just wanted to be closer to my family and I had also had like a sports injury and I wanted to save some money.

This was 2006.

Ellen was 22 and working her way through college at Ohio State.

And when she wasn't in class, she was waiting tables at a local Applebee's.

So like there's a bit of like a camaraderie, I think, that develops, especially when you're working in like the serving industry, just because it's not like the most fun thing.

You know, customers can be tough.

And so I was just good friends with a lot of the people I worked with.

And so there were a lot of times where we would all, like after a shift, everybody would go out just, you know, to blow off steam and hang out.

So I was pretty much just working hard in school and then working at the restaurant.

And then when I wasn't doing either of those things, I was usually, you know, out with friends.

Take us to January 2006, the day in question.

What do you remember about that day?

So it was a Saturday and I was working a double shift.

So, you know, the lunch shift and then the evening shift.

In general, I remember having kind of like a bad day.

Like, I can't remember exactly, but I think I had gone to like get breakfast or lunch before my shift and I saw like an ex-boyfriend with a girl or like there was something that happened that I was kind of upset, you know, when I went into work.

And then January is just kind of a slow time in the restaurant industry because the holidays have just passed.

So the day was like pretty slow.

I didn't make a lot of money on my shift.

And then a group of friends who worked there but weren't working that day came into the restaurant just to like hang out, have a drink, see people.

And so I talked to them and then we agreed that since my shift was almost over that I would just join them and then we would go out to like another restaurant that was nearby and my shift ended around 9 p.m.

is when I got got cut and headed out.

Across from the Applebee's was a big shopping center with a movie theater, restaurants, and stores.

This is where Ellen and her friends planned to go.

But separating the Applebee's from the shopping center was this busy four-lane road, not super pedestrian-friendly.

They would drive, not walk across the street.

It was also January in Ohio, so by 9 p.m.

it was cold and dark outside.

Ellen and her friends left the Applebee's together.

Her friends, who hadn't been working that night, parked in the Applebee's parking lot, but not Ellen.

Employees on shift typically parked in a different area, behind Applebee's, across a service road, and into this parking lot of a strip mall.

Ellen and her friends all hustled through the cold to their cars, and her friends said they'd see her across the street in a few minutes.

So even though we walked out together, they walked kind of quickly.

Their cars were right there.

And I walked by myself in the back area, the back parking lot to my car, which was something I did all the time.

So it wasn't like weird.

And even though it was dark, it was 9 p.m.

And, you know, like I was 22.

So that was like 5 p.m.

for me back then.

You know, like it, it didn't seem late to me.

So I was definitely like feeling pretty comfortable, you know, just doing something pretty normal and routine for me, just walking to my car and then, you know, going to meet my friends.

So there was no like alarm bells or red flags going off.

So I saw a man in that parking lot like while I was walking, which was a little bit weird because there's just no real reason to be in the very far back of like a big parking lot like that.

But it also wasn't super weird.

I mean, it was a fairly busy area.

So I just didn't really think much about it.

I figured he was walking from somewhere and I just got in my car.

And so what happened after you got in your car?

So I got in my car and because it was January in Ohio, it was cold and I just let my car warm up for a couple minutes.

It was something I always did.

I had a kind of an older car.

So I was just letting it warm up for just a second and then while I was sitting there, the man that I saw in the parking lot tapped on my window.

You know, I looked over and I just really instinctively rolled my window down, like reflexively, I guess, without thinking.

I just rolled my window down.

Because at the time, I guess that's like my only experience with somebody, you know, tapping on your window had been if they needed help or maybe, you know, they wanted to tell me something about my car or something like that, which is what he did.

He immediately was like, hey, you have a flat tire.

And one of the things I noticed is that, so I drove like a little sedan, a little Nissan sedan.

And normally, like if you were trying to talk to somebody in a car and you were outside standing, you'd like bend down, right, to look at them.

And he didn't do that.

He stood straight and he stood to the side.

So I didn't actually ever see his face.

So he said, I had a flat tire.

And then really quickly, my first thought was just like, oh, I have kind of new tires.

I didn't notice anything.

So like, I just immediately started thinking about like, oh no, I have a flat tire.

What am I going to do?

And while I was thinking, I'm sure it was like half a second, but while I was thinking that, he just like reached through the window and put a gun to my head and told me not to look at him or he would shoot me.

Ellen doesn't remember exactly what happened next, but she does know that she just did what she was told.

She closed her eyes when he said, close your eyes.

And he must have told her to move because she ended up on the passenger's side of the car in a kneeling position.

So my knees were on the floor and then my hands and my head were were on the seat, the passenger seat.

And then he put something over my head that I actually think might have been my apron from serving, but it just felt like like a cloth bag, like some kind of cloth something over my head so that I couldn't see.

And he obviously got in the car, in the driver's seat, and then he kept the gun for most of the time.

He must have moved it when he started driving, but he kept the gun on my back most of this time.

And then he also had me like, he moved my hand so that I could like touch the gun.

And I guess just like to prove to me that it was a real gun, which I didn't really have any experience with guns, but you know, it certainly felt real.

And you didn't get a good look at him.

Do you remember anything about like the sound of his voice or anything?

It was an adult voice.

Like he was definitely like a man, not like a younger kid.

The only like detail I really got of him was he'd been wearing like a camouflage print jacket or coat and then besides that again he was like average height like average weight like there was nothing like really like specific that stuck out to me so he gets into the driver's seat

and he is now driving the car yeah so he starts to drive the car I think he might have taken my money before he pulled out.

I can't remember the exact sequence, but I'm pretty sure right away he did take any money I had.

So I gave him like the cash I made that day from my apron, which again wasn't very much because it had been such a slow day.

But I gave him the cash I had, anything I had in my wallet.

Weirdly, he didn't ask for my wallet, but he did ask for credit cards, which I didn't have any credit cards at the time.

I just had my debit card.

So I gave him my debit card.

And then I believe as soon as he had the money, he started driving.

So the window was all the way down.

I had one of those automatic windows, you know, where you hit it and it just rolls all the way down.

But a weird thing about my car was that it was really hard to get the window back up.

I knew how to do it.

It was one of those things, you know, when you have older cars, there's like weird quirks to them.

So like you had to push the button in this exact right way.

And he couldn't do it.

He didn't know the trick.

So the window actually stayed open the whole time.

So the window was open.

And again, it was January, so it was cold.

So I was shaking.

I'm sure I was probably shaking out of fear, but I was also shaking just because it was really cold because he started driving and that window was all the way down.

The other thing was that my car was a stick shift, so it was a manual transmission.

It was like a point of pride for me that I could drive a stick.

And so I was sort of proud of that.

And then he, like, he got it going.

He was able to drive it, but getting out of the parking lot was a little rough.

I think he stalled it a couple of times and it was jerking.

And he actually said something to me.

I remember he said like, oh, I bet you thought I couldn't drive your car, which I thought was a weird thing to say.

It's like, obviously, I hadn't thought anything about this.

Like I didn't know you were going to get in my car.

So

I think I just said something like, oh, no, you're doing great or something along those lines.

I mean, yeah, it's like, I wouldn't be in my car right now if I had thought anything about you trying to drive it.

Right.

When he gets into your car and pushes you to the passenger side, that's all kind of a blurb.

And in that sort of blurry moment is when he says, you know, I want credit cards, debit cards, cash, and you give him what you have, which is not a lot.

So debit card.

And from that point, when he's driving out of the parking lot, what is he saying to you?

What is he saying to you, period?

I feel like he talked most of the time.

There might have been like a few moments where we were just driving in silence, but he talked a lot.

So like right away when he started driving, I said, you know, like after I gave him all my money and I was just like, you can have my car.

Just let me, you know, let me go.

Can you let me go?

You can have all my money.

You can have my car.

And he said pretty seriously

why would i want your car i don't have any use for your car at that moment i was like okay well then what's happening like this isn't just a robbery obviously like he wants me like i was just kind of trying to figure out what was going on He talked a lot about the trailer.

Like he would say that he was going to put me in the trailer.

He would say things about like selling me.

And he talked a lot about about like that he was working with a group of people.

And he would say that I was really lucky to be dealing with him because all of these other people were way worse.

Everything was like a threat.

Like if I acted up or if I didn't listen to him or if I looked at him, then things would get worse.

I would have to deal with these other people or whatever.

He asked me my name, which I told him.

And then he would ask weird things like he asked me if I was a virgin and then started talking about how they pay more for virgins.

At some point, I think he asked me if I'd ever been to Europe and I said no.

And he said, well, you'll be there tomorrow.

Like that's where the trailer is going.

So he would say like just a lot of things like that that were weird, but obviously at the time, very scary and just like threatening.

My reaction, I don't know that I really like thought about it.

I think when you're in a situation like this, your body, you know, just reacts.

I'm normally a really emotional person.

I cry really easily, and you know, like I usually have pretty big reactions.

But in this case, I think my body just kind of did what it needed to do, and I was able to stay pretty calm.

I just answered his questions and just talked to him.

I tried to just talk to him like people talk to each other.

And that wasn't something I really thought about at the time.

It was just kind of a reaction.

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Ellen was terrified and rightfully so.

The stranger had just kidnapped her and was now threatening all kinds of dangerous and violent things.

And yet, Ellen stayed remarkably calm.

She didn't want to do anything to escalate this situation.

So she acted as if she wasn't scared for her life.

She spoke to him as if everything was totally fine, as if he were just a man she had met in a normal scenario.

He drove them to a bank and went through the drive-through ATM.

He'd already taken her debit card and now he asked for her PIN number and she gave it to him.

He asked me how much money I had in my bank account, which was a very small amount because I was a college student.

And I found out later, I guess, that he took out the exact amount that I said, which I thought was a little weird that he believed me on that, didn't try to get more.

Do you feel comfortable telling us how much money he took out?

Oh, sure.

Yeah, it was like $160 or something like that.

Like it was less than $200.

It was a small amount, which is why I was surprised that he didn't like try to get more.

Did you have more money than that in your bank account?

I didn't.

I was very honest with him and told him exactly what I had because it was such a low number.

I think I was worried that like it wouldn't be enough.

So I just told him exactly what I had in my account.

Or as much as I I don't know that I knew like to the cent how much money was in there, but I gave what I the best that I could recall.

But once he got the money out of the bank, we stopped in that parking lot and we sat there for a long time.

And that was when he continued to talk about the trailer and he started telling me that he needed to check me for wires, like if I was wearing a wire.

I felt like that was such a weird thing to say.

Like, why would I be wearing a wire?

But it became pretty apparent that it was more of an excuse just to like touch me.

So he would put his hands under my shirt.

He did that a couple times, I think, while we were sitting there.

And in one of the times, he did start to unbuckle my pants.

And I just asked him not to.

I told him that I was on my period.

And I said, Could you please not?

And he amazingly stopped and he didn't do anything else.

And this whole time, still

your face is down.

And does he still have like a gun pointed at you?

I feel like because my car was a stick, he probably had to take it off me when he was driving.

But I know that for a good portion of the time, he had it pressed up against my back.

And if he did take it away, I feel like he would put it back periodically just to like

remind me that it was there and that he had the gun.

Most of what he was saying and doing was just like threats to just make sure that I complied.

And,

you know, I did.

While her kidnapper threatened her life, jabbed a gun into her back repeatedly, and touched her body in unwanted ways, Ellen stayed calm and focused.

She studied him, his voice, his words, assessing how best to interact with him to her advantage.

What angered him, what kept him calm.

All of this pointing toward the same goal, to survive this, to stay alive.

Almost 20 years later, she still remembers the sound and quality of his voice.

He kept kind of like almost like an eerily calm demeanor.

He spoke pretty like evenly and calmly the whole time, but it was very like he was serious when he talked.

It felt very threatening without being like chaotic.

Like it wasn't like chaotic or like violent in that way.

At some point,

I think when we were sitting in a big parking lot, or maybe a little later, he started talking in a different language that sounded like German, like almost like he was talking to himself.

Like there were some times where it almost seemed like he was just kind of like muttering to himself.

And he told me that I reminded him of someone named Rachel.

And the way that he said that made me feel like Rachel was somebody like that he liked, you know, like, I don't know who she was.

He never said it, but it was like a good thing, I think, for me.

It felt like a good thing that i reminded him of this person and then after that he called me rachel a couple of times when he did that his voice got a little softer and he felt a little bit more like far away if that makes sense like he was kind of like more within his thoughts than he was present in the car i do remember thinking about just how strange it was that he was calling me rachel but i made the decision not to correct him Yeah, because you got that sense in that moment by the tone of his voice.

Oh, I think Rachel is someone someone that he is fond of.

And so I'm guessing that that's translating to, it's a good thing that I remind him of Rachel.

And even if he thinks I'm Rachel, then maybe he won't hurt me.

Is that the sort of the like quick second like train of thought?

I think it was, I didn't want to correct him and kind of break him out of whatever he was in.

Like I didn't want to make him feel like.

he was wrong.

I didn't want to correct him.

I wanted to make sure he felt like he was in control.

It seemed that as long as he was kind of thinking about Rachel, that that was a

good thing.

Yeah.

And so, you know, you started off in the parking lot behind the Applebee's and then he's driving.

At some point, he goes to the bank, and then he goes to the bank parking lot.

And then does he continue to drive?

Yeah, so we were stopped for a while and I had a tough time keeping track of time.

We were parked in that bank parking lot for what was probably like 10 10 minutes, but I honestly don't know.

And then, yeah, we started driving again, but he didn't ever tell me where we were going when he started driving.

He did say a couple of times he said, Don't worry, it'll all be over soon.

It wasn't like in a comforting way.

So I didn't quite know what that meant.

Like, was he just going to drop me off somewhere?

Was he going to take me to this trailer?

Was he going to kill me?

Like, I, you know, I just didn't know, but it didn't seem like

any of it was a good option.

Yeah.

With this very eerie comment, don't worry, it'll all be over soon.

Was there ever a part of you that thought maybe I should try to jump out of the car?

Yeah.

One of the things I forgot to mention is that I had a little like flip phone and it was small enough to hold in my hand instead of wearing a coat.

Because I was 22 and I didn't like to wear coats.

I just had like a hooded sweatshirt on that I had put over my

t-shirt and my phone was in my pocket.

And so I had that and I remember thinking right away at the beginning like can I do something with this?

Can I, you know, call for help?

But because like he was so close and he had the gun either on me or you know right next to me and because it was a flip phone, it was like the only way I could think to use it would be to like flip it open.

And then I would have to either like call or text.

And texting back then was like, you know, on the little number pad.

so I just like I couldn't think of a good way to use it that I felt like was not super high risk so I kept a hold of my phone in my hand and it was buzzing a lot because obviously like my friends who I was supposed to meet were wondering where I was so they were calling and texting me so I would just keep it in my hand and every time it would go off I would hit you know the little silence button so he didn't notice looking back now I'm like oh he didn't ask for my phone but it was 2006 and I didn't know how old he was at the time but it was obvious that he was not a young person so maybe he just didn't think that I would even have a phone because he never asked me for it so I had that in my hand and then I did think about could I open the door and get out but because I couldn't see anything at the time it didn't seem like it made a lot of sense just because

like if we were driving i wouldn't know were there cars next to us you know like i wouldn't know And then if we were stopped, it seemed like he would be able to shoot me in the time it would take me to actually open the car and get out.

So, yeah, I thought about it.

It definitely was still an option.

I felt like if things like escalated to the point where maybe I felt like I had to, but I did kind of like weigh things out and it seemed like it would have been too risky

to do it.

Yeah, that makes total sense.

Did he ever say anything to you during this time of driving around parking about why he did this, why he targeted you?

No, he didn't.

We drove again and then we did park.

That's when he sort of ramped up like the threats and he started talking about how he had been watching me and he made it sound like he knew that I would be coming out of the restaurant because he had been watching me and he would tell me that he knew where I lived.

He started talking about like if I told anybody about him,

then he would come after me and my family because he knew where we lived, which was obviously terrifying, but he was starting to talk about like, you know, he was saying things like, if you tell anyone or like, so that started to make me think like, okay, maybe he's going to let me go because he's, he's saying all of these things about like.

why I can't go to the police or why I can't tell anybody because he knows where I live, he knows my family, he knows my friends, and he would come after us if I said something.

So it was

very scary, but also like,

you know, was making me think that there might actually be a way out of this.

Yeah, it's a very different conversation, even though the situation is the same.

He's holding a gun, him saying something like, I'm going to take you to a trailer.

You're going to go to Europe is very different from, okay, don't tell anyone about this.

You know, did you say anything in that moment back to him?

I'm pretty sure I just was like as reassuring as I could be.

Like I just kept saying like, oh, no, of course I wouldn't tell anybody.

I wouldn't, I wouldn't do that.

That kind of a thing.

I just tried to be as reassuring as I could that I was listening to him and I was going to follow his instructions.

Yeah.

And so then how did it end?

So, you know, I was starting to feel like maybe he would let me go.

And I still had my phone in my pocket and it buzzed.

And I must have just moved my elbow a little bit, like more than I realized, but he noticed me move.

And so he immediately was like, what was that?

And that was the only time that he got kind of like, you know, like he raised his voice.

Like he immediately was like, what are you doing?

And so I just like, I took my hand out of my pocket with my phone and I just like put it out and I was like, it's just my phone.

You can have it.

You know, take it.

This entire time, Ellen had clung to the fact that that she still had her phone.

It was her secret lifeline.

She had hoped he would let her go, but now, if he did let her go, if he dropped her off in some random part of the city, she would be without a car and without a phone.

And he was angry when he found out that she had this phone.

So now she was worried that he wouldn't let her go and that he might follow through with his threats to harm her.

But then, he continued to threaten her in a way that was hopeful.

Instead of threatening to have her killed or to traffic her overseas, now he was threatening to come after her if she went to the police.

He said he had her phone, so he wouldn't just come after her, he would come after her friends and her family.

Of course, that was scary, but it also indicated that he was going to let her go.

Why else would he be worried about her going to the police?

So shortly after that, he told me that he was going to have me count to 100 and then he was going to get out of the car.

But if I opened my eyes or if I didn't finish counting to 100, that he would know, like, he would watch me the whole time, and that, you know, again, he would come after me and shoot me.

He said this more than once.

He would say that, but then he wouldn't get up.

He wouldn't actually get out of the car.

He'd keep talking.

Again, I was like not quite sure if it was actually going to happen or not.

But then he did say it again.

And then this time he did get out of the car.

So I started counting to 100.

He got out of the car.

I made sure to count all the way to 100.

You know, I was pretty deliberate about that.

And then once I got to 100, I opened my eyes.

I took the bag or whatever it was off my head and sat up to try and see where I was because I had no idea where he had driven me.

And that was when I realized that he had driven me back to the Applebee's parking lot.

And so I was right where basically we had started pretty much in the exact same spot.

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I first found out about my cancer at the age of 45.

Anything with cancer, you just think death sentence.

In this episode, we'll explore the science behind detection along with the practical steps men can take to protect their health.

Listen to Health Discovered on America's number one podcast network, iHeart.

Open your free iHeart app, search Health Discovered, and start listening.

Top reasons advanced manufacturing pros want to move to Ohio.

So many advancement opportunities for technicians, machinists, managers, operators, and more.

How about a powered-up paycheck and an amped-up career?

Plus, the energy of big-time sports.

And after work, plenty of ways to unplug.

The career you want and a life you'll love.

Have it all in the heart of it all.

Build your future at callohiohome.com.

When families face their darkest moments, your kindness can be the light they need.

And when it comes to helping children in the Bay Area, you can spark hope with Shell.

When you fill up at the Purple Giving Pump at Shell, a portion of your purchase is donated to charities like the California Fire Foundation.

Download the Shell app to find your nearest giving pump, less than one mile away.

Because giving back doesn't cost you extra.

From September 1st to October 31st, participating Shell stations will donate a minimum of one cent per gallon of the fuel pump from the giving pump or a minimum donation of $300.

So as you're counting to 100, you're positioned where your knees are on the floor of the passenger seat.

And so do you just open the door and jump out or are you looking around to see if he's still there?

As soon as I opened my eyes, I know I look, I'm sure I looked around to make sure he wasn't there.

But then as soon as I realized I was at the restaurant, I just opened the door and then ran like as fast as I could.

I mentioned earlier that my body's response like while I was in the car was you know to stay calm.

And then as soon as I think as soon as I realized that he was gone and I was like seconds away from help, then like everything I think that I had been holding in just like released and I started crying and running and everything kind of came out and I ran inside to get help.

When you ran back inside to get help, what did you say and what was the response?

So I ran up.

It was such a weird feeling of like going into the Applebee's and everything was exactly as how I had just left it.

People were still eating, people were working and it was just so weird to me because I had just had such a crazy experience.

I saw a manager standing at the, you know, the point of sale system.

I just ran up to her and said, call the police.

I've been attacked.

And I don't remember exactly like what happened, like what she did.

I know she was trying to like calm me down because I was crying and it was hard for me to get words out, but I know I was clear about that.

I said, call the police, I've been attacked.

And we actually had a police officer who was there on Saturday nights.

He would come, I think, around 10 p.m.

on Saturday nights.

We just got busy.

We had like a late night happy hour and sometimes it would get a little rowdy.

Ellen's parents were called and a few people went out to look for her car.

It was still still there, the keys laying in the driver's seat.

Ellen's calm demeanor was gone.

It had kept her safe and clear-headed during the kidnapping.

But now that she was out of immediate danger, the reality of what she went through came crashing down on her.

She cried so hard she could barely speak.

Fortunately, a good friend of hers was working in the kitchen that night.

And he came out and just, I remember he just sat with me because obviously people were asking me lots of questions and I was having trouble like forming complete sentences.

I was just so upset.

And I remember he just sat there with me and waited for my parents to get there.

My friends who I was supposed to meet, someone had called them and so they had come back.

So there was a lot of people around.

It was just a little bit like chaotic.

Everybody wanted to know what was going on.

And then once my parents got there, we went back into like through the kitchen.

And then in the back there was an office.

That's where we sat and then the police officer took my statement, like took the official police report.

I gave the statement.

I remember him asking me about like what he looked like, if I could give any kind of description.

And I remember feeling like I wish I had more to give, but I just hadn't seen his face.

So I remembered what he was wearing, like the camouflage coat and that he was like average size.

What does it sort of feel like to be in your body after going through something like that?

It was tough.

You know, he was still out there.

And I was really taking his threats seriously that he knew where I lived.

Obviously, I had gone to the police.

So like, I was just worried that he was going to come after me.

I lived with my brother at the time, you know, in an apartment.

And so I just remember like begging him, like, don't go back to the apartment.

You can't stay there.

Like, what if he comes like looking for me and he finds you?

And so he did.

I think he stayed either at my parents' or somewhere, you know, at a friend's friend's house.

I can't remember.

But I stayed with my parents.

I don't remember why, because I believe I had a room there, but I slept on a couch, maybe just to like be close to everybody.

I'm not, I'm not sure.

And yeah, I remember like the first couple nights, the first night especially, I couldn't sleep.

My mom brought me a bunch of different books.

And so I had like a stack of books.

And I'm somebody like in my normal life.

If I am having a hard day, I want to like comfort eat, you know, like I want comfort food.

But this was one of like the few instances where I just like, I couldn't.

I was so upset that I couldn't eat.

I remember like that first night throwing up a few times, like just like I just felt physically sick.

The words of her kidnapper were hard to forget.

He claimed to be associated with very dangerous people.

He threatened her family.

He said he'd been following her.

He knew where she worked, where she lived.

Ellen doesn't know exactly how long the kidnapping lasted.

Time seemed to pass in this totally different way during that event, but she thinks it was actually only about one hour, one hour that changed her perception of her own safety in the world.

Everything around her was the same before and after that one hour, but Ellen was not.

She grappled with how to move forward, knowing her attacker was still out there.

She worried he might come after her again.

So like, I felt like that like the first couple days.

And I stayed with my parents for about a week.

And I mean, it obviously got better, but after the first couple of days, but yeah, it was hard to sleep and eat, especially those first couple of nights.

Yeah, I can only imagine.

I mean, it's just so scary to go through something like that.

So the police had questioned you that night about what had happened and try to get some information that they could work with to maybe try to find this person.

And what happens in the investigation into this?

Yeah, so there was a detective assigned to the case.

I talked to the detective on the phone a couple times, and it was pretty quick.

It was definitely like before, so this happened on a Saturday.

It was before the next Saturday.

So I don't know if it was like four or five days later, but she did call me to let me know that they had found him.

So he had been caught.

Apparently, he had attacked four women and I was the second chronologically.

So the first three, me and the other two, were really similar where he like approached us in our cars.

But the fourth woman, I don't know if he gotten a little bit more bold after getting away with it for three times, but he approached and attacked her outside of her car.

So like in the parking lot as she was walking to her car and it was also the middle of the day and there were people around.

So she screamed and he

like fled i guess he had a car there because he got into a car and drove away but because i think somebody saw it and called the police at least this is only what i remember i'm not sure i'm getting it totally right because it was you know told to me but i believe that he was chased the police were after him and he ended up crashing his car and then they arrested him and he admitted to everything.

So he right off the bat confessed to everything.

I do remember, like, once I had that, like, luckily, that was just a few days after.

And so, once I knew that he was caught and put away, obviously, I was still super upset, but it helped reduce that anxiety of like, he's going to come after me or he's going to come after my family.

And so, what can you tell us about who this person was and what did you learn about him?

He was older.

I think he was in his 50s or early 60s.

He didn't have a criminal record.

I believe he was a veteran.

He had a lot of grandkids.

Like he had a big family that were all very supportive of him.

From what I remember, he had recently gone through a pretty tough time.

Like, I think that he lost his wife to cancer and his brother was killed.

I don't really know, but I know he had gone through some tough things.

And then, yeah, he did these things.

At least from what I was told, there didn't really seem to be a clear motive or reason for it.

The person responsible for attacking Ellen, along with three other women, was a man named Henry Williamson.

It was rather shocking, simply because he was a 67-year-old grandfather with no prior record.

His family members said he'd been struggling with depression and had been battling cancer.

He was on multiple medications because of that, but it's unclear if those medications impacted his actions.

An investigator on the the case told Ellen that Williamson had acted alone.

Everything that he told her in the car about working with this group of people involved with international sex trafficking, he made that up.

He also had not been stalking Ellen prior to the kidnapping.

Instead, it's believed that he just happened upon her in the parking lot that night, pure chance.

Henry Williamson's bond was set at $500,000 for having a gun and running from the police.

And he was facing multiple charges, but ends up accepting a plea deal and not going to trial.

We looked up his case and it seems like he pled guilty to a charge of aggravated robbery and was then sentenced to nine years.

Yes.

How did it feel for you to sort of learn he wouldn't be going to trial and that he would have a nine-year sentence?

The initial charges included kidnapping, and then I think when they did the plea, it was just aggravated robbery, is what they ended up charging him with.

So, I went down to the courthouse with my mom at some point to read the psychological report.

So, they had done a pretty big, lengthy report.

And I remember reading that and just like learning a little bit more about what was going on with him.

It in some ways made it worse because I think there was like something in there where they asked him like why he targeted me, and he just said, like, oh, she just looked like she'd be easy to rob, which just made me feel super vulnerable.

Like, you know, there was just like nothing I could have done, you know, like he just saw me and did this.

Like, at least at the time, I was okay with the plea deal.

You know, I just didn't have a lot to compare it to.

Like, I'd never been in a situation like that.

I didn't like spend a lot of time like researching like what an average sentence for this kind of thing would be.

I mostly just listened to the prosecutor, like what he told me.

And I think he might have been sick at the time he was sentenced.

So there was like a feeling of, okay, like he's older and he's sick.

And like nine years in that situation seemed, I don't know, like a longer period than maybe it would have been in a different situation.

I mostly just really wanted to put it behind me and to have it over with.

And the main thing I was concerned about was just making sure that he wasn't allowed to be in a situation where, you know, it could happen again, where he could do something like that again.

So you did go and speak at his sentencing hearing.

You know, what can you tell us about what you remember from that experience as far as what you said in your victim impact statement and what it was like being in the courtroom that day?

I remember just being nervous.

I remember he kept his head down pretty much the whole time, like he wasn't making eye contact with me.

Trying to remember, I feel like he did say something.

Like I think he might have said that he was sorry for what he did.

I can't remember.

some of his family spoke I remember his granddaughter spoke about like him helping her with her homework and it was just such a like a weird thing for me to like see these people and to hear her speak because it was just such a totally different thing than like you know that what I had seen I think I just really wanted to make it clear what he had done to us you know you know i'm glad that she got help with her homework but like

he had done this he did this thing to me.

And I was there.

So I

talked.

I don't remember what I said.

It was pretty short.

I think I just, you know, talked about like how it impacted me and how I felt scared and vulnerable and alone.

Our statements were more for the judge because the judge was doing the sentencing.

So I think I talked more about like how much I just wanted to make sure he didn't have the opportunity to hurt anybody again.

What was the impact that you felt from this experience?

I mean, obviously at the very beginning like I said you know I couldn't sleep but later on it was more

I remember when I read that psychological report which would have been you know probably like six months after and you know you said like oh she was just it looked easy to rob.

I remember having a really strong reaction to that because

I think like before all of that happened, I had been a college athlete.

Like I was

pretty good shape.

I just like felt like a tough girl, you know, like I felt like I could take care of myself.

I knew how to throw a punch.

Like I had this sort of like idea of myself, of like just being able to take care of myself.

And in reality, when all of this happened, I was just completely powerless.

Like there was a gun in the situation, and I just felt like there was nothing that I could do.

And I think that just really made me much more fearful in general.

Obviously, much more aware of my surroundings

and just like, you know, a hyper vigilance that, you know, I didn't have before.

You know, I had normal things, like if I was in the middle of the night walking down an alley by myself, I would be a little scared.

But in general, you know, I was just kind of like

going through life feeling pretty good about like my ability to defend myself.

And after that, I just really felt like there's danger everywhere, you know, and like, and I need to be prepared for it.

So I think like

lasting impacts, my body still has like physical reactions to like, if I'm in the car and somebody walks by, I'll tense up and I just immediately get like kind of a panic state, like, oh, what's this person doing?

I'll lock my doors, even if it seems silly.

And I don't think I realized this.

I think it was sort of like a slow thing, but I like have felt like I need to start trying to think of like everything that could happen.

And so I am like definitely like an ultra planner.

You know, I plan everything out and I try to anticipate every situation.

And if like anything goes wrong in my plans, like if anything is something sudden comes up and plans are changed, it's hard.

I have a tough time with that because I need to know exactly like what we're doing and when so that I can have as much control over the situations.

And that was something that I think I don't even really realized that was happening until like years later.

And I was like, oh man, I really

am like this where I don't think I necessarily was before.

And then like the other thing that I would say that was one of the reasons I wanted to talk about it was just that like I did just kind of go on, you know, with my life.

I quit my job.

I got a new job.

I graduated college.

I stopped waiting tables.

Started my career.

I eventually got married.

And, you know, everybody close to me knows what happened.

I talk about it, but I don't really talk about it very often.

And I also think sometimes I've had,

this is going to sound silly, but like almost like this like imposter syndrome of like, like it wasn't like a terrible crime that, you know, you would do a documentary about.

You know, I wasn't shot.

There were just like so many other terrible things that could have happened.

And so like, there's that feeling of like, I just need to be thankful that like, you know, he ended up letting me go and that I survived.

And I am, of course, very thankful.

But I think especially like years later, now that I'm so far removed from it, I can also think about just like how much of an impact this has had on my life.

And that like, there's no reason that I shouldn't talk about it.

And there's probably other people who have been through, maybe not the same thing, but, you know, similar things and might feel the same way so yeah so that was kind of one of the reasons i felt like it was important to talk about it yeah well yeah i'm so glad that you reached out to us i mean it's also like this framework of like storytelling and sometimes you know

there's space created to tell stories of what has happened to us and sometimes it's more limited or we want to just mention it in conversation and

and the crudest details are like well yeah you you got away he let you go you know and you're, you're quote unquote, okay.

And thank goodness that that is the situation.

But it was very much a crime and it was kidnapping.

It's interesting that that is a charge that they end up dropping and who knows why, you know, the complications of that.

But it's like, that's what happened, you know, what was going on.

And it's such a scary thing.

So I appreciate you

coming on and telling us and talking to us about it.

Oh, thank you.

I was just curious, how were you notified that he had passed away from cancer?

I actually think I got notified that he was petitioning for early release.

It kind of all got brought up again at that point because he was dying.

So I knew that he was sick.

But then, yeah, someone called me.

So I'm assuming, you know, somebody from the prison system or somewhere.

Somebody called me and just basically told me that he had passed away.

I remember being at work.

And even though it didn't surprise me, because I think I had known that he was sick, it still affected me more than I thought.

Like, I remember, like, I just, I left, I talked to my manager, and so like, I had to leave.

I went, and I think I just like walked my dog to the park and took a really long walk.

Um, but it was just a strange feeling, it just brought up everything again, and then it's also like a weird feeling of like being glad that everything's over, but then also, like, you don't want to like celebrate a death.

Like, I wasn't like happy that he died, but I was happy that it was just over, pretty definitively over.

Yeah.

With that, and yeah.

Yeah, I can imagine that would be sort of a complicated wave of emotions.

You know, a lot of, I think, life exists in this gray area in that way.

Was there anything that we didn't ask you that you feel is maybe an important detail that we missed or just something to include?

One thing that I thought was kind of a fun little detail, funds might not be the right word, but when I got my phone back, it took me a while to get it back.

So I think it had been like a week or so.

And I was able to check my voicemails.

And I had obviously like voicemails and messages from my friends who I was supposed to meet, but I also had a voicemail from my mom.

And when I checked the time, it was basically right when everything was happening.

And she left me this voicemail that I'm paraphrasing because I don't remember it word for word, but it was something along the lines of like, hey, Ellen, I was just thinking about you.

I just, I feel like maybe, like maybe you're having a hard day or a hard time.

And I just like thought you might want to talk.

And so like, I just want to let you know I love you and I'm thinking about you.

And, you know, I'll give him a call later.

And so that was like a really sweet and nice message to hear.

And it's something that I think about a lot because my mom passed away a couple of years ago.

And so when I think about that voice message, you know, like she wasn't with me and somehow still had that thought of like you know something might be going on and that I might have needed her and so I like to think that that seems true now you know when she's not with me that she still has that understanding when something you know I'm going through a rough time

so I thought that was kind of just like a a nice a nice thing that I had that she didn't mention it to me like at the time I should probably forgot she even left it so that was like a nice thing like a week later that i just had this this super sweet voicemail on my phone

well she sounds like a really great mom

she was thank you

uh sorry i have a two-year-old i know i'm like

i have a daughter

yeah i mean

i don't know i i totally believe in like that connection between a person and their parents or a parent and a child is like it's just so big it's just so big

yeah and that's you know i think it's obviously a sweet moment in an otherwise incredibly traumatic situation.

Well, thank you so much.

Thank you.

We really appreciate you reaching out and sharing your story.

And I think your story, and I know Hannah feels the same way, is important.

And it's a good thing that it ended with you being safe.

And

like it doesn't lessen.

that it impacted your life.

Well, thank you.

I know I said this in email, but I have really just loved your podcast.

I think what you're doing is really important.

And I think you just, you do it in such a kind and thoughtful and careful way.

And so I just really appreciate that.

And I've really enjoyed listening to your interviews with other women.

So thank you.

So Ellen wrote us an email and I immediately was like, oh, Hannah, you should read this.

I think we should speak with Ellen.

And in the email was sort of a reader's digest version of her story of being kidnapped.

And Ellen was not certain that this was a story worth telling on the show and said that for the same reason, she really hadn't spoken to even many people in her life about it.

And I think that, you know, we've heard this before from victims of crime or nefarious incidents where if they escape physically unharmed, sometimes there's a bit of a reluctance to fully acknowledge what happened to them.

Yeah, it's like the facts of the matter, like, oh, look, you're fine.

That was, you probably got scared, but you're alive.

You haven't been seriously harmed.

So somehow it feels like less salacious to people in some way.

Yeah.

But it's like, shouldn't we be happy that she got out alive and that she's okay?

Right.

And can't we still talk about and reflect on how this has impacted now so many different aspects of her life.

I mean, she said that prior to this incident, she of course would roll down her window for a stranger, assuming that they're there to help her or that they're in need of help.

And now, because of what happened to her, I don't think anyone could fault someone in her position for no longer reacting that way.

Yeah, the like sort of fear of strangers when she's in her car was an interesting impact that is still happening to her.

And also, I thought that the way that she talked about like hypervigilance and feeling the need to control everything was really poignant.

So many people can relate to that, even if you haven't gone through, like, you haven't been kidnapped, but I totally see how if you went through a situation where someone took control away from you completely of like your safety, your vehicle, like.

the idea of maybe even potentially your life, you would be really like desperate to hold on to control.

Absolutely.

Her sort of question around whether or not her story had a place on the show or really anywhere almost brought me back to some of this more like kind of strange reactions that we had from a couple of people to Darun's episode.

I remember that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We're like, she didn't even get attacked enough or something just bananas like that.

And you're thinking, that's a good thing that she was not physically harmed more than she already was.

I know.

And that should be something that we're glad about and not sort of saying, so stop telling your story.

It's not worth it to me.

Totally.

Similar to Darun's story, coming so close to being physically harmed or potentially killed, like you have to imagine that it's not completely the same in your body, but that fear is still there.

Like your body is still reacting in this like fight or flight mode.

Like you have all of that pumping through your body and your brain.

And so there are like very real physical consequences

of this.

Yeah, completely.

I also was just like so fascinated by how she talked about her just natural reaction was just to be so calm and just to pretend like he was just a dude who she met.

And could you imagine being in that scenario and having to be like, oh yeah, like you're doing a great job driving my stick shift car.

Like the amount of times that she had to be like, I needed to tell him that he was doing a good job to keep keep safe.

I was like, wow.

Oh, yeah.

And there's so much we could say about this, but it's like, I think not everyone, probably very, very, very few people have ever found themselves in a situation even close to similar to this.

However, I think most women have found themselves in a situation where you feel uncomfortable.

And so you stroke the ego of a man who's making you uncomfortable in order to try to feel more comfortable or more safe.

And that sucks.

Totally.

Yeah.

it was relatable okay so i was curious about you know you had done some research into henry williamson the man who kidnapped her and was eventually charged and then died in prison There was a note that he had cancer and he had been going through treatment.

We also heard that he was going through like a lot of very difficult things in his life when this happened.

I was really curious about if there was some kind of potential link between having cancer, maybe like taking some medicines like chemotherapy drugs, and if that could have any potential connection to mental health or anything like that.

Right, because we don't exactly know why he did this.

We don't.

Like there was never really an explanation that we know of.

So I did find an article from the Journal of Psychiatric Research from 2024.

And It said, being diagnosed with cancer and coping with fears around potential death might trigger acute distress.

And previous research found that patients with cancer are 1.85 times more at risk of developing mental illness.

And there was an analysis done by the English Longitudinal Study of Aging involving 7,586 adults and about a thousand of them had cancer.

And of that, like 0.3%,

so only 19 people, but they self-reported hallucinations.

So there is some potential small association that cancer patients could have higher odds of hallucinating, but it's very unclear if that's like because of the cancer, what type of cancer, and the treatment.

Or if it's like

correlation, not causation, where it's like, okay, if you're reconciling that your life might be ending much sooner than you thought or hoped, you know, maybe there's sleepless nights, okay, sleep deprivation.

Maybe, you know, you're not able to keep food down because of all of the medication you're taking.

I mean, there's so many factors at play.

I obviously have no idea.

But But yeah, the fact that his family knew him as someone completely different for really almost his entire life,

you know, it tells you something happened there.

Totally.

I think that's one of the bizarre things about this case is that, you know, he had no prior record.

When Ellen talked about being in court and that sort of dissonance between his granddaughter saying, this is my grandpa and he helps me with my homework.

And that is how his family knows him.

She's like, that's sad.

But also it's very real that he attacked me and three other women.

So that's the same person that did that.

Like, how do you reconcile that?

Right.

Yeah.

I mean, it's impossible.

I think.

And I mean, we, we've already said this, but the ripple effect, right?

You have someone who is very clearly in the eyes of the justice system a victim.

You have Ellen and the three other women that he attacked, but you also have.

his family members who are now suffering from watching this person that they know as a really loving grandfather, father, you know, he's now a dangerous criminal and he's being prosecuted that way.

And I imagine that's a very difficult place to be as well.

Totally.

And to have like a parent die in prison would be difficult.

Yeah, that's just

an impossible thing, I think.

Well, I'm so grateful that Ellen reached out and shared her story with us.

I thought it was unique.

I'd never heard a story quite like this, and I was glad that she trusted us to tell it.

See you guys next week.

If you have a story for us, we would love to hear it.

Our email is then at exactlyrightmedia.com, or you can follow us on Instagram at theKnife Podcast, or Blue Sky, at the Knife Podcast.

This has been an Exactly Right Production, hosted and produced by me, Hannah Smith, and me, Tayshia Eaton.

Our producers are Tom Breifogel and Alexis Amorosi.

This episode was mixed by Tom Breifogel.

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.

Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.

Executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.

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