Special Episode: Solving Cold Cases with DNA

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Welcome to the Knife.

I'm Hannah Smith.

I'm Haisha Eaton.

It's a very special day today.

We have an episode out, and it's not Thursday.

What?

How wild?

How wild and unpredictable of us.

I know.

You know, we love this conversation so much that we decided to go ahead and just release it, even though it's not Thursday.

In this episode, we talk with Aylin Lance Lester about solving cold cases with new DNA technology and genetic genealogy.

Ailen is the host of America's Crime Lab, and she tells us about a cold case that was solved after more than 40 years.

In the beginning, we'll talk a little bit about genetic genealogy, which we thought was important important to try to understand how this all works.

But stick with us because we get into a cold case that is truly fascinating.

Enjoy the episode.

Aylen, welcome to the knife.

Thank you so much.

I'm so excited to be here.

We're really excited to talk to you today.

Yeah, we've been listening to your podcast and we're obsessed.

So we are excited to get into it.

So a little bit about your bio.

You co-wrote, produced, and co-hosted The Turning, which listeners might be familiar with.

It's excellent, an award-winning documentary podcast that intimately explores insular groups with blurry power dynamics.

And there are three seasons out now.

But we're actually here to talk to you about your other podcast, America's Crime Lab.

And that show covers cases that are oftentimes unsolved for a long time, some current cases as well, but that are all solved with the help of DNA testing and genetic genealogy, and all cases that Authram Labs have worked on.

That name might sound familiar because Authram has been connected to some very high profile cases, the Golden State Killer Investigation for one, but there have been many.

So America's Crime Lab, it's a collaboration between Kaleidoscope, iHeart, and Authram Labs.

And I'd love to hear about, you know, how the show came about.

And were you already really interested in, you know, DNA use in criminal cases?

Like, how did this all happen?

Well, I feel like it was one of those providential things where it all came together.

I personally have always been a true crime fan in the sense that I just love human stories.

And I think when people face such horrors, it's like you just see the basis of humanity.

And so I've, I'm someone who's always consumed that media.

Basically, it was really like a team effort for how it came to be.

Like you mentioned, Kaleidoscope and iHeart and Authram kind of together were like, let's make this podcast where we can spread the word on this new technology that a lot of people either literally don't know about or who have vaguely heard about that is changing the way crimes are being investigated.

And I think what's exciting about our show is that it explains the science in a way that I think is pretty relatable.

Like I'm not a genetic scientist as the host, and I feel like I'm kind of getting it now.

And I think it's helpful to be able to consume other media about true crime.

So they kind of conceived of this podcast idea together.

They were like, we want this information to go out into the public because the more people know about it, the more detectives across the country could reach out to Authram and use the technology.

Like a huge barrier to it being used is people just not knowing about it.

So then because I had worked with some of the team at Rococo Punch that's working with Kaleidoscope to make the podcast on The Turning and other shows, and they knew I had a background in psychology.

I actually have my PhD in clinical psychology and did a lot of therapy and all that, gave therapy before switching careers.

They're like, we know you like true crime.

Like, would you host this show with us?

And I was like, are you serious?

This is a dream come true because it is something I'm so passionate about.

And it just felt truly providential to be able to work on this.

That's so cool.

Yeah.

So we're going to talk about a specific case that you cover on the podcast.

But first, you mentioned, you know, Authorum is bringing this like very new technology.

And I've sort of been interested in Authrim for a while.

I've listened to some podcasts with David Middleman, the founder.

I've been trying to understand like, okay, DNA testing has been around since like the 80s or something.

It's been used in criminal cases.

But what Authrim is doing seems really different and new.

And so I've heard David Middleman kind of explain how the technology works, to be honest.

I still don't really understand it.

There's a reason I'm a podcaster and not like a scientist.

I do love the way that you talk about like the technology being explained through your podcast.

Things are always easier to understand through storytelling, in my opinion.

But, you know, what have you learned about it from working on this case?

Like the very layman's explanation of why what Authrim is doing is so new and important.

Honestly, I could go on and on about this.

So it may take us a bit to get to the case, but I'm just kidding.

Basically, it's this new technology that, you know, the old DNA technology, while totally great and has helped solve so many cases, it would look at 20 markers to create a DNA profile.

Whereas this new type of DNA technology takes between 100,000 to a million markers and gives basically way more information.

in that DNA profile.

Whereas before the old DNA profile with 20 markers, you'd run through CODIS, which is that national database that maybe your listeners have heard of before, and you'd look for a match with someone who is already in CODIS, someone who is convicted of a serious type of violent crime.

So you'd need to have already arrested them and taken their DNA from another crime in order to get a match.

So that's really helpful if you have that match, but also extremely limiting.

And then it is true with CODIS.

I think there are certain relationships other than the match, like a son or something that maybe you can glean from too.

I won't get into those details, though, just to be correct about it.

I want to acknowledge that.

But then with the new technology, because there's so much more information, you can plug that information into these databases that are genealogical websites.

Basically, you know, like where you get a swab of your mouth and send it off for DNA testing to get to know your ancestry.

Well, some of those sites have consented to forensic investigations, not all of them, but some of them.

And basically, they can use those genealogical websites to build out a family tree from the profile.

And rather than it just being a hit in CODIS, you can literally slowly go through the family tree, see what bits of the profile matches, and whittle down often to a single name of who they're pretty sure left the DNA at the crime scene, or possibly like among a few siblings or something.

So it basically provides you a lead.

And that's something that Authram explains a lot and investigators who've worked with this type of DNA.

What this really does is it creates a lead.

It's not a slam dunk.

It doesn't mean you have a conviction or you have your case.

And it's not saying, oh, if you left your DNA at a crime, it means 100% you committed it.

It's just giving you a name to investigate.

So then you have to go back and do your due diligence, figure out if the person has an alibi.

You got to figure out other evidence, whether circumstantial or other links to the crime, and really do the good old-fashioned detective work that we're familiar with.

But then on top of it, if you have enough DNA, you also can run the old type of DNA.

And then if you have this suspect, you can take a sample and run it against using the old technology to doubly confirm like this is the person.

So it basically provides another type of DNA to test the old kind of DNA against, and it also creates new leads that were simply never possible before.

And DNA gets into CODIS from either someone who has submitted it to, you know, ancestry.com or one of these sorts of websites, or I guess, I don't know if Ancestry has consented to CODIS, for example, having their DNA records, but like, how does DNA make it into CODIS to begin with, even if it's like you're connecting a piece of DNA that doesn't flag in CODIS, but maybe flags as like a relative of someone who is in CODIS?

This is such a good question, actually, that you asked, because I think there is a distinction.

So this information with the new technology actually isn't typically being used against CODIS.

CODIS is separate.

from the genetic genealogy.

So I'm glad you clarified that.

CODIS is just like the old standard 20 marker profile.

So that's a separate thing.

Okay.

And this is using information from genealogical websites.

So they're not even touching CODIS in this process.

I see.

So it could be anyone off the street.

So it's often not criminals, but it's people who have consented to having their DNA profile that they uploaded for other reasons provide information to lead someone potentially to a killer.

Which is so interesting because

Then there are cases that we're hearing about now where the person who ends up, you know, the lead that is generated and then it ends up, you know, through detective work that it's them, they're not in the system.

Maybe they've never been caught for a crime, right?

And so they've been flying under the radar and suddenly there's this massive amount of DNA available that's.

So wild.

Like, I mean, it's talked about a lot in the true crime space, but it's like, okay, you know, if you have that aunt or uncle who's like, you really shouldn't be doing any of the DNA testing, like nobody do it.

It's like, that could be

a red flag.

Just kidding.

But thank you so much for explaining that it'll really help us as we go through the case we might need some more like explainers but totally you talk about a bunch of interesting cases on the podcast but one that we want to talk about is one that was a cold case specifically because we're super interested in cold cases and cold cases being solved through DNA technology and so this is the case of Carla Walker a case from 1974 and before we get into you know the investigation can you kind of walk us through who Carla Walker was and what was going on with the, you know, what happened in 1974?

Yeah.

So as you said, in 1974, Carla Walker went missing in the Fort Worth, Texas area.

And she was a 17-year-old girl, junior in high school.

was known for having a really fiery, energetic personality, was really silly too, people said.

So many people loved her.

And she wanted to be a veterinarian.

She loved animals, loved her little white dog whose nails she would sometimes paint pink.

So she was spunky and fun and she was a cheerleader and she was dating the quarterback of the football team.

And so in February, they were going to go to their Valentine's Day dance.

Her boyfriend Rodney picked her up from home.

Her family was all gathered there to send her off, take pictures in front of the fireplace.

And they say, don't worry, like you don't have a curfew.

You can come back when you want.

We trust Rodney.

We trust you.

We'll be waiting up for you to hear how the night went.

So they go to the dance, have a good time.

And then after the dance, they are hanging out in Rodney's, actually his mom's car, because of course they're high schoolers in the parking lot of a bowling alley.

And they're doing what teens do.

They're hanging out, kissing a little bit.

And then,

according to Rodney, the boyfriend, suddenly the door to the car opens and Carla kind of falls back.

And suddenly there's a man or possibly two men there with a gun, pointing it to them.

And Rodney thinks that he's then shot and becomes unconscious.

And when he wakes up, Carla is gone.

according to Rodney, presumably she's been abducted.

And Rodney is unconscious for he thinks about how long.

I can't remember the exact amount of time, but what is notable is so the next place he goes, allegedly, is to Carla Walker's family.

Which I think is at around 1.30 in the morning is when he gets to the Walker's house because they're all still awake waiting for them to get home.

Is that?

Am I remembering that right?

Yeah.

Yeah, you are.

You're on it.

What's interesting is that's roughly like an hour or hour and a half after when the alleged abduction occurred, which is, I think, what you're alluding to, to, that it's kind of like there's this break in time.

What was Rodney doing during that time?

When he shows up, they notice even the blood on his face because he was supposedly hit over the head, maybe with the butt of the gun or something.

It's coagulated, showing time had passed.

So I think eventually investigators kind of wonder about that.

What was happening?

What was he doing in that hour, hour and a half?

So obviously when he does arrive there, he tells the family she's been taken.

They are just horrified.

You know, they get police involved.

The search begins.

The father is so upset, he even heads out with a gun to try to find Carla.

He's just devastated.

What has happened?

I want her back.

But they can't find her.

Rodney is so close to the family, they really see him almost as another son or something.

He even stays overnight in Carla's bed for a while because they trust him and they're feeling for him.

And that's kind of the center of this investigation at first.

Yeah, I was actually curious about that piece of this, Rodney sleeping over.

You know, he was like, like you said, really close to the family, it sounds like, and they really trusted him with Carla.

And, you know, he was almost like a son to them.

But do we know anything about Rodney's family situation?

I'm picturing like.

If I'm Rodney's parents and knowing that he just went through this incredibly horrific experience watching his girlfriend abducted, he's he's badly beaten i would want him home with me do we know anything else about why he stayed there

you know i'm not entirely sure and i i don't want to give you a wrong answer that's such a good question though you would think that he would go home and so that is almost a little bit suspect, but I do get the sense that that house became like the epicenter where everybody was coming, like the police were coming.

He was probably being, you know, questioned by police.

Maybe they wanted him around.

And that's, there was like the hustle and bustle was happening there.

So I wonder if that was part of the reason.

Yeah, because he shows up and he's, you know, bloodied and beaten, but they remember him also seeming like genuinely terrified.

Yeah, he was terrified and he seemed to be so worried about Carla and what happened and, you know, feeling guilt and fear around like, what happened?

What could I have done to stop this?

And who were these people or this person who took her?

Yeah.

So I think I took us on a little tangent, but so the police arrive and they go off searching with the dad goes with them.

Rodney stays back at the house with Carla's mom and maybe also her aunt and Carla's 12-year-old brother.

They're all still at the house.

What goes on during the search?

Yeah.

So a lot of people in the community start searching.

It takes them days.

But eventually, three days later, they find Carla's body underneath a cattle culvert, basically in the middle of a field, kind of a quasi-bridge that cattle can walk across.

She's found underneath that, and clearly she was sexually assaulted and murdered.

Basically, some of the evidence that the investigators had with the case was, first of all, in the Bowling Alley parking lot, they found a magazine to a gun.

Now, this is 1974 Texas, so it could be unrelated to the crime, but they do their due diligence and try to find anyone who in the area who owned that gun and question them.

And they don't really find many leads.

It just kind of seems to stop dead.

They don't go anywhere with that really.

And then they also noticed that Carla's promise ring that Rodney, her boyfriend, had actually given her was strewn next to her body.

which some people thought could indicate that maybe Rodney actually had something to do with it, which, of course, statistically, that's really common for the boyfriend, the spouse to be the one to have committed the crime.

Seems like something so personal.

Yes.

Because he gave this to her as like a pre-engagement or something, like an intention to, we'll get engaged someday, I would assume.

Exactly.

He's saying, I'm committed to you.

One day we'll get married.

And this ring is a symbol of that.

So it's a very meaningful symbol, I would assume, for them both.

And

so when I heard this, my initial thought was, hey, maybe it was like Rodney was upset at her for some reason and took off her ring and threw it to the side, or she threw it to the side, and that led to an escalation of some kind.

So who knows what happened?

But there simply isn't enough evidence and they're not sure

how it transpired.

So over time, eventually the case goes cold.

And it's devastating to the family.

Jim, Carla's younger brother, whom you mentioned, was just devastated.

He actually, I think, lived in that house and kept the family home throughout his adulthood in hopes that maybe someone who knew something would come and tell him what happened.

Wow.

He truly was haunted by it and counted the days since Carla's abduction years into his life.

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Listening to Jim talk about witnessing his parents' anguish over Carla's abduction was, I think, it was life-changing and something he never forgot.

Yeah.

And I have to say that's something I really value about what we were able to do with the podcast.

I know you guys do this a lot on your podcast, but talking to family members and really getting up close to what it actually feels like in the moment for those people actually witnessing what happened.

I think there's a power and an importance in that.

And yeah.

Yeah.

Because you talk with Jim in the podcast and some of it's it's edited together, but I imagine, you know, how long did you actually

How long was that interview with him?

You know, we've done so many.

I don't know, maybe like an hour or two.

Yeah, I think it is important to hear those stories, especially because this is something that still impacts him, you know, to this day, as it impacts so many people in that community.

I mean, the whole community, I think, was really overwhelmed and frightened by what happened.

It haunted a lot of people in that community for years to come because they believed it was someone.

in the community who had perpetrated this crime and they didn't solve it.

I mean, how scary for anyone who who has children to know that a young 17-year-old has been abducted, sexually assaulted, and killed in this way.

Yeah, and it seems like also during this time, there's still a fair amount of people that suspected Rodney.

Yes.

And it gets so intense, all the suspicion around Rodney, that Rodney actually moves away from Texas and goes to Alaska to restart his life.

And now that's a question of, is he escaping something and doesn't want to get caught?

Or is he just so haunted by what happened and how people look at him differently and treat him differently?

And, you know, maybe he just felt he had to leave and kind of start over.

It's so like, you know, thinking about that time that passed with him, you know, thinking he was shot, probably hit over the head.

with a gun potentially and then there's this time that elapses and then he comes to the family and then the promise ring and then leaving for alaska all these things it's like you could read them two ways.

You could read them as suspicious, or if he's innocent, then it's horrible because then this person's life is being terribly affected by this, not only the death of his girlfriend, but his community thinking that he's probably done this, which I guess goes to show, I mean, that's one of many examples, speaking with her brother as well, just the way that cold cases don't just go away for people and for communities.

When there's a violent crime that's occurred, it like stays with people, which I'm sure you've heard this over and over now with doing this podcast.

And we've also heard on the knife through interviews is that people really care about resolution.

Like it means a lot to people and to communities to have that answer.

Without it, it's just like things are just left unresolved and people are continuing to hurt for so long.

And so Before we get into sort of like the next break in the case, did the police have any other suspects?

I mean, I assume Rodney was, was he a suspect at one time?

Did they have any other like leads or suspects?

Yeah, so there were a number of people they looked into.

First of all, Rodney definitely was high on the list.

I think it's interesting initially, because he was so close to the family, he wasn't thought of, at least in the immediate family, as a direct suspect.

Again, he like slept over.

But then when they spent more time thinking about it and this actual nature of the crime, where had he been for that hour to hour and a half, they kind of thought, did they get into some kind of argument?

Could this have led to a murder?

And then they also did

question all the people who owned the gun that matched the magazine that was left in the Bowling Alley parking lot.

And basically one of the people that they questioned didn't have their gun.

I think everybody else was able to like provide their gun and show it and they were able to kind of cross them off the list.

There was one person who said his gun had been stolen.

They asked him to take a polygraph.

He was very willing.

He passed the polygraph.

Of course, we know polygraphs are.

not that reliable today, but back then that was considered the gold standard.

And also, I mean, he was more than willing to take the polygraph test.

He just simply didn't have the gun, he said.

And so there was kind of nowhere else to go.

And then a while later, someone else actually came out of the woodwork and confessed to the crime.

Someone not on the suspect list.

And they were really shocked to hear from this person.

And he confessed to the crime, but interestingly, he seemed to only know information that had been in the news, didn't really know about Rodney being there or couldn't remember it.

Suspect.

Yeah.

But there was a grand jury and he was indicted and jailed for the crime.

But then eventually he recanted and admitted, I made it up for some reason.

Who really knows why?

It's wild that that happens and how often it happens that people confess to crimes that they didn't do.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's just such a waste of resources for all of the investigators and then prosecutors in this case that then have to pursue it because why would someone come forward and say that they did something so horrific if they didn't?

Well, also, and I don't remember if you talked about this in the podcast, but like, like, was Jim told?

Like, did her family think that he had done it?

Like, when he was indicted by a grand jury, like, were people like, oh, yay, we got the guy?

I think a lot of people did think, like, he must have done it.

Again, because he admitted to it.

And again, a grand jury, which

I think a lot of people don't really realize, like, what even is a grand jury?

I like only recently realized what it is, but it's like basically a mini trial where they have a kind of jury and they like put forward the evidence that they would put forward in the trial to basically determine do we have enough evidence to go to trial and that's what creates an indictment so he was indicted so even through this legal system it was determined that there was enough evidence for him to go to trial but alas it wasn't him and yeah it is such a good reminder too in general when we talk about crimes Like you don't know what people's motivations are for really weird or unusual behavior.

And that's why the evidence itself is so important, the hard evidence.

Do you remember how long after Carla's murder, he came forward and said that he had done it, this person?

I can't recall now off the top of my head.

I think it was a long time later, though.

Like they had been investigating for a very long time and he eventually came forward.

And possibly, again, because this case case was sort of in the air, it had been in the media, the community was so focused on it.

Yeah.

And it sounds like possibly the man was having trouble in his marriage.

And, like, oddly, somehow, this was one way to cope with that.

I don't know.

So, the case is still cold, or then it goes cold again, basically.

Yeah, it goes cold again.

And unfortunately, it goes cold for 46 years.

So, almost half a century, we don't know what what happened to her until they

decide to start doing some DNA analysis on the case.

I have to touch on this because I thought this part of the story was like so just reminiscent of what I picture of like small town Texas is

the Cowtown cold case chicks.

Yes.

So COVID, COVID, they get together online, then they get together at a diner, it sounds like, and they start talking about this case because one of the women in this group.

It's basically what explain the Cowtown.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So the Cowtown Cold Case Chicks are

a group of women who live locally.

got online, started talking about cold cases and murders that had happened in the Fort Worth area.

They had a rule that you couldn't talk about politics, only murder.

Which makes sense.

Yeah.

Totally makes sense.

Nothing would get done.

And 2020 or anytime, I guess.

But

yeah.

And so one of these women went to high school with Carla Walker.

They weren't friends, but she knew who Carla was and has memories of seeing her at school.

And then another woman in the group is in 2020 married.

to Rodney's best friend.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

So this is like all deeply connected.

Deeply connected.

And so they're like, okay, we want try to solve this.

And they put together their own case file.

Yeah, no, it is a great story of, and what I love is the idea of just these people coming out of the woodwork.

They're all, they're coming from all walks of life, different backgrounds, maybe different politics, but they're.

they're brought together from this case and somehow just feeling this emotional connection to it and this personal connection.

So they put together just all the information they can glean into a file and they go actually to CrimeCon, I think, and they want to get the attention of Paul Holes, who is a very famous investigator.

He was heavily involved in the Golden State killer investigation that was solved.

And so he's like a big deal in the crime world.

And he's kind of almost like this star.

And he's on stage giving this presentation.

And afterwards, the Cowtown chicks go up to him.

hand over the file and say, you need to work this case.

I love it.

What initiative.

Seriously.

It's amazing.

Yeah.

And he happens to be working on a show, a TV show, and looking for the next case that he's going to investigate.

And so he's like, yeah, let's do it.

It is funny at how these things just like come together sometimes.

But that's a way that they can get the funding to do the DNA testing on the DNA that they have to try to determine who committed this crime after all these years.

So Paul Holes does the case, makes the TV show, and they do the testing, but basically they do testing that basically kind of fails, or they do have a profile that they're able to put into CODIS, like we talked about before, but there's no match.

And for some reason, I think with a different lab that they used or something,

They consumed some of the DNA and they just feel like they're out of luck.

They basically couldn't solve this case for the TV show.

Because one thing I didn't realize until listening to America's Crime Lab is that when you test the DNA profile, you get one shot and then it's no longer testing.

You use it.

You're using it up as you test, as you're testing it, right?

Exactly.

Yes.

It's consumed in the process of the testing.

So once you test it, you can't test it again.

And if you somehow fail with the analysis, then you're just left with nothing.

So they had had some DNA from semen found on a bra strap, which was a good, solid sample, but they used it up and they couldn't get the DNA profile that they needed.

So they think it's over.

They think this is the end of the road.

Like, can you just like talk to us a little bit about that?

Because I thought that was really powerful in the podcast of, you know, Paul stepping in to try to help solve this case, doing his best, obviously, and then like hitting that roadblock.

Like what, what must that have been like for him?

I, I think he was really devastated.

I think Paul Holz is someone who takes his cases home with him.

He's, he really feels them.

He talked about like sipping on his beverage of choice of liquor in his basement man cave, just like thinking about this case, feeling like,

what have we done?

We consumed the DNA and now we'll never know.

And so I think it kind of haunted him.

And, you know, he had spent his career working cases like this.

And so I think he felt it personally.

I think he was like, maybe we shouldn't have even tested it if we weren't sure we were going to get the results.

And obviously, I would imagine everyone involved.

I would imagine Jim, Carla's brother, would have been devastated to think, but this was our shot at figuring it out.

And now.

We haven't figured it out after all these years.

I got my hopes dashed yet again.

I think it is that feeling of like, with those cold cases, what you guys were talking about before, like this feeling of it being up in the air and that doubt and not knowing.

I mean, it's torturous for these people.

Yeah.

I mean, it just like horrible.

And obviously he was like, you know, really trying to help and very invested.

And then

it sounded like, you know, because he had used up a lot of it, that he wasn't sure if anything left was testable.

Is that, and then like, how does, so how, how do we, where do we go from here if it's like, there's no more DNA?

Right.

So it seemed like maybe there weren't any other options.

Now, there actually was another sample of DNA.

The problem was that it was mixed DNA.

So DNA that had maybe been mixed with Carla's DNA or like maybe exposed to plants and plant DNA.

You know, that's the other thing, actually.

Quick side note about this technology so that your listeners can feel like, ooh, I'm up on this and explain this to other people.

What's cool about the technology that Authram, this lab, has,

is that it can take DNA that is way more degraded in way worse condition with much smaller amounts than you would typically need with old type of DNA testing and still come out with an answer with again, way more information.

Again, between 100,000 and a million markers as opposed to like 20.

Part of what Authram does is have a whole process for also determining can we analyze this DNA or not?

Do we have enough of it?

It's not like the cheek swab that you take when you're sending in your genetics to get your genealogy or something.

Like that's a nice clean saliva swab.

Whereas this is like it happened to fall on her bra strap or her dress.

It's been sitting out in the sun and the heat, the Texas heat for three days.

Then on top of that, in Carla's case, there is this additional DNA on her dress.

But again, it's mixed with other DNA.

So the idea that it can be tested, you know, Paul Holz thinks, I don't think this is possible.

And people just think this is the end of the line.

However, because of the TV show, two people, Kristen and David Middleman, the co-founders of Authram, they see this special on the Carla Walker case.

And I think one of their children was around the age of Carla at the time when they saw the show.

And they were just really struck by the case personally drawn to what happened and they said i bet we can solve it so they actually reached out to the team and said hey is there any more dna evidence and they said well we do have this mixed dna a very small sample like i i don't know i think other people have said we can't really test it so they say send it to us let's see if we can test it or not they send it on over

and it is like the tiniest little bit of DNA.

It's, I think it's like four nanograms, if I'm remembering correctly, which is like just like a handful of cells, like so tiny, you can't see it with the naked eye, like so small.

I don't even know how they do this stuff.

And so, you know, you'd think you can't test that, but Authram says, we can test it.

We think we can test it and we think we can come out with a result.

So they say, okay, move forward with the testing.

They move forward with the testing.

And I can't remember, but I I think it was on a holiday or something.

David Middleman, one of the heads of Authram, calls up Detective Jeff Bennett, who's on the case.

And when Detective Jeff Bennett sees that he's getting this call from David Middleman on a holiday, he thinks they've got him.

So he picks up the call and they say, we have a name.

So basically, They had the DNA profile and through genetic genealogy of looking through the family tree, they were able to narrow it down to Glenn Samuel McCurley.

They think this is a name that is the actual suspect, because I know sometimes when they're doing the family tree thing, it might be like a relative, or are they pretty sure it's this guy, or they think it might be someone related to him?

They come up with this name.

It's a little bit confusing.

At first, they think it's this man, but then it turns out when they look him up, he died maybe two years before the crime was committed.

So then they thought, oh, did his DNA somehow get on the dress?

Although it is semen DNA.

Because there was something else, right, about her sister having worn the dress.

Yes.

Carla was re-wearing this powder blue dress to the Valentine's Day dance that her sister, I think, had worn, you know, as you do, you share dresses sometimes.

And so they thought, okay, well, if this man is dead, maybe

by the time of the abduction and murder, like maybe.

It was actually from a different event.

But then they look more deeply into the family tree and they realize that he had three sons

and that he does have a son, Glenn Samuel McCurley Jr.,

who may have committed this crime.

Wow.

Yeah.

Because they learned that he was Glenn Samuel McCurley Jr.

of these three sons.

He was the only one of them living in Texas when Carla was murdered.

Right.

So

what a huge break in the case.

Like this was like a couple of years ago, right?

That this happened.

Yeah, it was extremely recently.

I should know the year or like the exact months of when it was solved.

But yeah, like COVID times was like the first break.

So then it took a little while for it to get to Othrim after the TV show.

Right.

So this is all happening in the last few years.

Carla was killed in 1974.

And, you know, obviously a ton of police work had gone into this case for many years.

And now there's this name, which is a huge lead, though.

As you had said before, this is a lead.

Like it's not like they can just take this test into a court and say, look at that, like he's the one.

So, you know, what do they do with this?

Like, how does this, where does the investigation go from here?

You're right.

We can't know for sure.

Even if he left his semen at the crime scene, do we know that he was the one to kill Carla?

So they locate him.

He's still living in the community in the same home he's been living in for decades.

And they stop by to just check in with him.

It's kind of around COVID time.

So the investigators kind of pretend that they're just doing like home checks on people.

Like, is everything going okay?

Do you need masks?

That kind of thing, I think.

And they talk to his wife.

And I do think one little interesting moment is when they first show up, they say hi to the wife and Glenn is working out back in the backyard or something.

And he comes around out front.

And when he sees police, he immediately throws up his hands and says, oh, it wasn't me.

It wasn't me.

Basically joking that.

Like an old man joke.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah, a dad joke.

Audacity.

But like, yeah, creepy.

Yeah.

And so they go in and they end up asking him like, you know, we're also looking into this crime that happened so many years ago.

And anyway, it's confusing because they leave and then they come back again.

And I don't need to get into the mechanics of all that, but they come back again and they really think this is the guy.

They ask him, you know, where were you the night of Carla's abduction?

And he says, oh, I was driving my wife around because she can't drive.

So I always drive her around.

And then the wife who's sitting elsewhere in the room in their like living room kind of says from the table, oh, now you're wrong about that.

Like, I was out of town that weekend.

Silly, Glenn.

So his alibi is shot.

A little while later, they ask, asked, you know, could we have a DNA sample?

And he said, oh, you know, I think back in the day, they actually took my DNA sample.

So I don't think you need it.

But then the wife again in the corner says, oh, well, you know, honey, back then, there were no DNA samples taken.

It was, you know, the 70s.

So I am

like, just throwing him under the bus.

I'm like, did she suspect him?

Yeah, like, what was going on?

Or maybe she just didn't know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I kind of think she just had no idea and was just like, oh, help these kind police officers out.

A truth teller.

Yes, a true truth teller.

So eventually somehow he agrees to give his DNA.

I still don't know how or why he agreed to that, but they take a swab of his DNA and

they decide they're going to run it.

And they run it and it is a match.

So what's also great, quite often when they're checking the DNA, they run it against the old type of technology because that's like what's typically historically used.

So they'll use that 20 marker system I talked about to double check to confirm that what they found with the new technology is correct.

Oh, that's interesting.

Yeah, that's another nice layer to this is quite often in these cases, it's like a double check of the DNA testing.

Often that test is done at the police department as opposed to like at Authram.

So it's different people doing the testing.

That makes total sense.

Cause I was wondering, you know, because they're such, it's such new technology and they're one of the only labs that is doing it, how do you have your like quality control?

But they're comparing it against the 20 marker system that is widely accepted.

Exactly.

Okay.

Did he show up in that system?

Like, was he in COTIS?

So, yeah, he hadn't been in CODIS because they had put his DNA through CODIS years prior.

That's right.

I think years.

Maybe I'm getting the timeline wrong here.

And they didn't have a match.

So he wasn't in COTIS.

So they decide to take him in for questioning.

And at first, he says, no, I didn't do it.

He denies it.

But after further questioning, eventually he admits to having committed the crime.

So what was miraculous is that Glenn Samuel McCurley Jr.

had been on that list of suspects they had?

They had whittled it down to like around 84 suspects.

And he was actually on that list because he was actually that man who had had the type of gun that matched the magazine at the Bowling Alley parking lot.

He was the one who said it was stolen.

Yeah, exactly.

Who had taken the polygraph past the polygraph.

He had another example of how we can't entirely trust polygraph tests.

And they questioned him.

We know the gun wasn't stolen.

Tell us, Glenn, do you have it in your home?

Where is it?

And he eventually admits, yes, it's in my home.

And he tells them where it's hidden.

He actually made this like room addition.

He built this addition to his home and hidden in the ceiling plank.

You can push it up, he says, and you can find my gun there wrapped in a towel.

And so they go and they find the gun.

Wow.

So there's another piece of evidence against him.

Wow.

And he hadn't committed other crimes in this 46 years or did he?

As far as getting caught for crimes, yeah, he was had pretty much a clean background and he technically was on the suspect list, but had kind of been rolled out.

But he wasn't like this known violent offender.

No, he was a part of the community.

He had two kids.

had this wife, had been living there for years, was just considered to be, you know, this man in the community, someone that was probably trusted and loved.

So I think it was really shocking.

And

so he did admit to it.

So eventually it was decided, you know, it was going to go to trial.

But unexpectedly, initially, he said, I'm going to plead not guilty.

After having confessed, after the DNA evidence, and after finding the gun.

He still was going to plead not guilty.

And so I think a lot of people were very upset about this.

And a lot of people even wonder, how can you possibly plead not guilty after all that?

But think about it.

There might be ways where they can somehow throw out the DNA evidence in court or somehow find a loophole to throw out the confession or chalk it up to a false confession or something or convince the jury of something.

So, you know, it is a scary thought.

Even if you have the DNA evidence, it's not a slam dunk.

Totally, because the jury would have been looking at him as this elderly man,

not this like like young person who can fight off the star football player and kidnap this other young woman.

They would be looking at, I mean, he must have been in his 70s.

Yeah, he was young at the time of the crime.

So I think he was in his 70s, 46 years later when they're questioning and jailing him.

What ended up happening, though, with the trial?

So eventually, though, he unexpectedly changed his plea last minute to guilty.

And so he was convicted of the crime.

And I think everyone involved was so relieved to know that he was going to prison for probably the rest of his life.

Wow.

I don't know if you have any information on this, but I think I read that they ended up suspecting him of additional rapes and murders, although he was never charged.

Were you able to find anything about that?

Yeah.

So one interesting thing is when they were interviewing him in that confession, he did describe details of Carla's case and what happened, but he also seemed to be like kind of mixing up stories and in like, for example, what she was wearing and confused it potentially.

They noticed what he described was similar to another murder that had happened nearby of a young woman or girl in the area.

And so the detective put two and two together and thought, oh my gosh, is he confusing different crimes he committed?

And so he asked Glenn in that questioning, oh, like, are you confusing different people that you did this to?

And Glenn replies, I don't think so, which

suggested to that detective, I think he's committed numerous crimes.

Yeah.

I mean, as devastating as that is to hear, it's like, that was one of my first thoughts listening to like, you think about 46 years.

You go from in his early 30s, I think he was was 31 when Carla was murdered, when he murdered Carla.

And then he's living as this like family man, this church going husband, this father.

46 years, he just what doesn't do that again.

I mean, maybe, but it's such a brazen and violent offense that it was both, you know, maybe jarring, but I wasn't totally surprised when I read that because it was such a horrific murder to begin with, to think that then he just turned his life around.

Highly unlikely.

Yeah, totally.

Well, also, I don't know, it just, it sounds like something a serial killer would do, right?

The type of murder it was.

Although, did he know Carla or was she a total stranger to him?

I can't remember.

He didn't personally know her.

Like it was like his child went to the same school, high school as one of Carla's siblings, but that was later after the abduction.

So no, he didn't know them personally, but like lived nearby.

And did he just happen to be in that bowling alley parking lot or was he following them?

Did they ever find out?

I'm not entirely sure.

I can't remember because we do so many cases.

It's hard to keep track of all those details.

No, all good.

I was just curious, but yeah, I mean,

it's just wild.

I do get the sense that, you know, his wife was out of town when this happened.

I kind of personally wonder if, like, this was something he would do when his wife was like out of town and he would just find somebody who seemed vulnerable and like attack them when they were alone, maybe followed them there or just found someone who we thought he could take control over.

That's what I think.

His wife's reaction when he's being questioned makes me feel like she had no idea.

Yeah.

Like, of course, we're upstanding people.

The police are here.

We're going to answer the questions.

Like, why wouldn't you give them DNA?

Which must have been so shocking for her to find that out.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Totally.

Or his children.

Yeah.

Oh, my gosh.

But, you know, it's something that you talk about on the podcast a lot that I think is so important and interesting and that you mentioned earlier, which is like people do weird things.

And it can be really easy when we're talking about a case to think that something is suspicious or this person acted this way and that's really suspicious.

Like Rodney slept over or where was Rodney for that hour and a half or the fact that he moved to Alaska could all be considered like really suspicious behavior.

And, you know, when you don't have hard evidence, anybody can become a suspect and like suddenly it can tear towns apart and families apart.

And the fact that this cold case finally got an answer is just incredible.

Someone who probably without this would have kept living the rest of his life free and never have faced consequences for this.

And that's the heart of like what I find so fascinating about DNA technology and genetic genealogy being used to solve cases, especially cold cases.

It's just, it's mind blowing that we're here, that we're able to do that with technology today.

How has that been for you working on these cases?

Yeah, that is such a good point.

That is what is so amazing about this technology.

Not to like, I don't mean to sound too cliche or like I'm promoting the technology.

I just think it's pretty cool as someone who came into this project and learned about this technology from knowing almost nothing to now knowing so much more about it.

It's like it is solving cases that have been stone cold for decades.

Candy Rogers, another one we had talked about maybe discussing, that was cold for 62 years

before that was solved as well.

These are cases that are considered the Mount Everest of cases for these communities or these police departments.

And suddenly they're just getting solved like that.

And I think the impact is that now people can be caught before they perpetrate more than once.

You know, I think about the Idaho College student murder case with Brian Koberger.

Authram was involved in tracking him down and identifying him through the same DNA analysis.

So, and that was, you know, a matter of weeks after he perpetrated the crime.

And I wouldn't be surprised if he would have gone on to perpetrate other crimes.

Oh, my gosh.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so just to think that this technology can actually stop potentially serial killers in their tracks, it's miraculous.

Totally.

Yeah.

I went to Washington State University in Pullman.

Oh, wow.

So I've spent a lot of time at U of I and that case blows my mind.

And I had read about Authram when that happened and was blown away by it because, of course, I'm sure he would have gone on to commit other crimes.

I mean, that was just such a horrific attack and also studying criminology.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Not a good guy.

Yeah.

Well, I just had one last question.

You had an episode where you mentioned the vast number of unidentified remains that exist in the U.S.

And I think you called it a silent epidemic.

So I wanted to quickly ask you you about that and what is being done to identify those unidentified remains and what you meant by silent epidemic.

Well, I think for a lot of us, as we go throughout the world and life, we assume that like the government protects us and takes cases of like missing persons or of bodies that are found, remains that are found, and says, we're going to at least figure out who this is.

Like let's for a second, forget even solving the murder, if it's a murder.

Like let's just figure out who this person is who has passed away and their body is found.

But the reality is that there are tens of thousands of remains existing in the U.S.

that are simply unidentified.

And for each one of those people, you know, there's a family, a community, friends who have lost that person and just have no idea what happened to them.

And so some of the cases we discuss on our podcast are people that have simply been identified and the huge implications of that or how that potentially opens a murder investigation from there and what it's like for families to hear, oh, I lost my dad when I was little and I never knew what happened to him.

I thought he left me and never wanted to speak to me again, but oh, it turns out he died in this very dramatic way.

I think it helps people to just know what happened, even if they, you know, it's still a huge loss, probably still traumatic for them, but to just have some kind of knowledge is so important.

And it's funny, we think of basic things like medical care being something that everybody should have, you know, but it's like, I would hope that if I died and my body was left somewhere, that someone would try to find out who I was.

And so luckily, it's a lot more to get into than really for right now, but Authram is partnering with other forensic anthropologists and partnering with different communities to try to identify a lot of these remains.

And I think they're also working on legislation to try to get more remains identified and soon.

That's amazing.

Yeah, so amazing.

Yeah, it's important, I think.

Yeah, not something I had spent a lot of time thinking about, but yeah, I think it's important as well.

Yeah.

Wow.

I mean, we could talk to you forever, but Ailen, thank you so much for coming on the knife and talking to us.

We love your podcast and we hope that everyone goes and listens to it.

America's Crime Lab.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

If you have a story for us, we would love to hear it.

Our email is theknife at exactlyrightmedia.com or you can follow us on Instagram at the Knife Podcast or Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast.

This has been an Exactly Right Production, hosted and produced by me, Hannah Smith, and me, Patia Eaton.

Our producers are Tom Breifogel and Alexa Samarosi.

This episode was mixed by Tom Breifogel.

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.

Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.

Executive produced by Karen Kilgare, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.