Alexander Vindman on Trump Ukraine Disaster

Speaker 1 I'm joined by Alexander Vinman, retired United States Army Lieutenant Colonel. Mr.
Vinman,

Speaker 1 what do we just watch

Speaker 1 unfold in the Oval Office with Donald Trump attacking President Zelensky? It was might be one of the most shameful moments, I think, ever in American history. You're Ukrainian.

Speaker 1 You have unique experience in this area as well. What do you make of it?

Speaker 2 It was a shit show. We've never seen anything quite like it.
You know, basically, the U.S.,

Speaker 2 the U.S. has been a supporter of Ukraine for,

Speaker 2 even if it's been insufficiently supportive, it's been a supporter of Ukraine for three years, spending somewhere in the ballpark of $60 to $100 billion to help Ukraine ward off an aggressor, Russia.

Speaker 2 And now we have a new Trump administration that invites... Zelensky into kind of work out a deal, figure out how the U.S.
might continue to support. And

Speaker 2 in this

Speaker 2 discussion, where Zelensky is saying, hey, this is what the Russians are doing to our troops. They just kidnapped 20,000 of our kids and are brainwashing him.

Speaker 2 Trump and Vance attack Zelensky and say that he's not motivated to conduct peace and that Russia is not such a bad guy. In this meeting, Trump basically sides with Russia

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 attacks Ukraine. And Zelensky, in a very valiant way, stands his ground and tries to make the point that Russia can't be trusted.
Russia is the bad actor. The U.S.

Speaker 2 is in danger by buying in, by constantly deceiving itself about Russia.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 that devolves further into accusations that Ukraine's ungrateful.

Speaker 2 It was just something that we haven't seen,

Speaker 2 not just undiplomatic, but a betrayal of Ukraine and our Western values and the way we interact with the world. It's 180 degrees different than it has been with any administration preceding.

Speaker 1 You know, I'll show you, they're trying to spin this now on Fox a certain way. They had Lindsey Graham, Senator Graham, MAGA Republican, go on moments ago.

Speaker 1 Let me show you what he said and get your reaction to it. Let's play it.

Speaker 3 Hey, Kaway, I told President Trump, I said, there's two ways to look at this. Your interaction with Zelensky

Speaker 3 was maybe the best television I've ever seen. But it's deeper than that.
The world is now watching how Trump behaves and acts when he's pressed.

Speaker 3 I thought he stood up for America, that we're a good people. We want to help you, but we're going to be respected.
So I think Moscow is probably more afraid of Trump than ever.

Speaker 3 I hope the Chinese are, and I hope the Iranians are. As to Zelensky and Ukraine, to the Ukrainian people, America wants to help you.

Speaker 3 The way the meeting went today, you made it almost impossible to help you.

Speaker 1 Again, I'll ask you.

Speaker 1 Alex, do you think that Putin is more afraid than ever? Is China more afraid than ever? Is Iran more afraid than ever after watching what just happened in the Oval Office?

Speaker 2 It's been a constant parade. Those guys

Speaker 2 in Beijing and Kremlin have to be constantly drunk because they're endlessly popping bottles of champagne at the wins that they score really without like having to lift that much of a finger.

Speaker 2 I mean, all Putin had to do thus far is to say that you know he's interested in peace. He hasn't shown that he's interested in peace.
He hasn't started to ease the war, which he could do without

Speaker 2 by just issuing an order.

Speaker 2 He's the aggressor.

Speaker 2 And instead, what we have is Trump constantly catering to Russia, saying that, you know, signaling that he's willing to normalize relationships, that Russia has been treated too harshly.

Speaker 2 And this is just really unacceptable for somebody like Zelensky, who's his country suffered enormous losses and has enormous suffering.

Speaker 2 And the Europeans also understand that the truth of the matter and have are redoubling their support, are interested in pitching in more to help Ukraine. Ukraine is in their backyard.

Speaker 2 They know that Russia is eyeing the West and eyeing some additional territories. So Lindsey Graham is an absolute coward

Speaker 2 because Trump did not sound strong. He was attacking a ally when he didn't need to.
This was just Delinsky

Speaker 2 saying that Trump, that Trump can't trust Putin. That's all he was saying.
That was the argument. That's how the argument got started.
And J.D. Vance, I mean, he looked like an absolute clown.

Speaker 2 I don't don't understand why Trump allowed Vance to blow up his deal. I mean, the deal was there.

Speaker 2 The initial part of the press conference was totally fine. They both had their comments, you know, a series of questions unfolded.
And then

Speaker 2 when it came around to whether Putin could be trusted, Zelensky said, no, they've constantly broken the deal. And Vance took that as the opportunity to to side again

Speaker 2 with Putin and criticize Zelensky. And he blew up Trump's deal.
I mean,

Speaker 2 that is how this whole thing started to devolve. And then at that point, you know,

Speaker 2 it was very emotional, Zelensky trying to point out that his country is suffering through a war, that they were not an aggressor. And

Speaker 2 it was the most shameful interaction that the U.S. has had.
on the public stage with regards to foreign policy, you know,

Speaker 2 in decades.

Speaker 2 I can't think of another example in which we behaved like this, behaved as such a poor ally, and so simply, actually, we behaved like idiots because we can't simply understand the basic truths that Russia is the aggressor.

Speaker 2 We know that's the fact. We can't accept the basic truth that Putin is untrustworthy.
And this has nothing to do with dealmaking.

Speaker 2 If we wanted to make a deal to end the war, we would recognize that it's the Russians that need a compromise, not the Ukrainians, that the Russians are the ones that are feeling quite a bit of pain.

Speaker 2 Yes, the Ukrainians are also, but they can't go on forever. Kremlin can't sustain these kinds of losses.
And all we need to do is continue to support Ukraine for a bit longer.

Speaker 2 Instead, we're shifting stances, being a friend to our enemies and an enemy to our friends.

Speaker 1 You know, your background, of course,

Speaker 1 you were in the European Council.

Speaker 1 You were a leader in this area, United States National Security Council for European Affairs.

Speaker 1 You know, your background, being born Ukrainian, what's your message to Ukraine right now, to the people of Europe who are seeing this?

Speaker 2 I think, you know, I guess even before we get there, I'll just point out that

Speaker 2 this book was undertaken after I was forced out of the

Speaker 2 out of my military service after 22 years. I forced out of the White House after reporting Donald Trump's corruption and the scheming way back in 2019 and testifying.

Speaker 2 And then I wanted to understand why we keep making the the same mistakes over and over. And the subtitle of this book really says it all.
It's how the U.S.

Speaker 2 continues to deceive, deceived itself about Russia and betrays Ukraine. I wish I'd used the present tense and not past tense.
I said deceived and betrayed. It's deceived and betrays.

Speaker 2 It continues to do that to this day. And it's to our own detriment.
It is not the fact that we are helping Ukraine to be,

Speaker 2 you know, just to be a good actor. It's because we understand the importance of Ukraine

Speaker 2 holding back the Russians from further aggression, helping to stabilize Europe. And my own experience, I mean, I left the Soviet Union as a refugee at the age of four.

Speaker 2 So my own experience has been entirely as an American serving in the U.S. military, serving in embassies in Moscow,

Speaker 2 in Kiev, in the Pentagon, where I wrote the Russia strategy.

Speaker 2 how we contend with Russia as an adversary, where I was invited to the White House to be able to continue to do the work of advancing the U.S. national security interests.
It is about the U.S.

Speaker 2 And it's shocking that we are now at this poison Kool-Aid stage of our relationship with Russia,

Speaker 2 appeasing them, accommodating them, always getting burned in the process instead of learning the lessons of the past and doing better, where we are far off from what I recommend, which is U.S.

Speaker 2 moral leadership and the centrality of values to interests. It has a positive, I mean, I really lay out a positive case where it's going to take us to survive Trump.

Speaker 2 But on the back end, when we start to correct for all the damage that was done, that we recapture moral leadership by saying that, you know, we shouldn't be focusing on the bright, shiny object that, you know, Trump is falling for right now with Putin saying, hey, I might be interested in peace.

Speaker 2 There might be some other deals we could work and never paying off when we should be focusing on the things that matter, like European security, because it's they're there for us when we are attacked.

Speaker 2 Europeans, because they're our largest trading partner and they enable our prosperity. So to me, it's about the U.S.
and how the U.S. can be safer.

Speaker 2 And we just made it a lot more dangerous for the U.S.

Speaker 1 You know, I'll show everybody the book right here. It's called The Folly of Realism, How the West Deceived Itself About Russia and Betrayed Ukraine.

Speaker 1 You know, I've read this before doing this interview. I'd encourage everybody to read it because it gives a roadmap of even how we got here.

Speaker 1 And I don't want to give away what you say in the epilogue, but literally you predicted exactly what happened today, almost word for word. It's in the epilogue.

Speaker 1 So I'd ask people to read this, and it's important to understand how we got here again. Make sure you all check it out, Midas Mighty.
But I'll leave with this. You know, obviously, this is

Speaker 1 a very devastating time right now.

Speaker 1 You know, if you're in Europe, especially if you're in Ukraine, we see Europe, you know, the new Chancellor of Germany, for example, and others, even talking about just pushing away from the United States totally, just building a Europe-first security force, and basically may not even show up at NATO in June when the next major kind of conference is.

Speaker 1 So, what do you think is going to happen? And just what's your message to, I guess, our former allies in Europe and Ukraine?

Speaker 2 We are burning bridges

Speaker 2 as fast as we can find them.

Speaker 2 You know, the issue here is that I think what ultimately offended Trump is that he has this slogan of make America great, make America strong.

Speaker 2 And Zelensky is pointing out by siding with Russia that actually the U.S. is in danger.
Completely 100% valid point.

Speaker 2 But it bursts the bubble of Trump being the strong man and Trump making us more safe and more prosperous.

Speaker 2 That was

Speaker 2 absolutely honest assessment from Zelensky. He knows what he's talking about.
And I think the fact is that other allies now look at what happened with the U.S.

Speaker 2 going so hard in for Putin and abandoning our allies that we are completely unreliable. I hope I'm wrong.
I unfortunately tend to be right about these things. And

Speaker 2 it makes me sick that I see this train wreck unfolding.

Speaker 2 But I think we're burning bridges and we're creating opportunities for our enemies. And it is putting our troops in danger.
It is making this country weaker.

Speaker 2 And we have to, at this point, we just have to weather the storm and come back,

Speaker 2 try to institute some accountability

Speaker 2 with our elections in the future and try to rein in these knuckleheads and get rid of

Speaker 2 folks like Lindsey Graham and all these yes men that embolden and

Speaker 2 pander to Trump and

Speaker 2 drive him to make it the worst decisions that

Speaker 2 I've seen thus far, frankly.

Speaker 1 You know, so Graham, other MAGAs are saying what needs to happen is Zelensky needs to go to Mar-a-Lago and apologize and,

Speaker 1 you know, say, I'm sorry, that was a big misunderstanding. I don't know, doesn't that play right into kind of Trump's God complex? And has Trump doubled down?

Speaker 1 Or is that a smart geopolitical move to pretend and keep the folly going?

Speaker 1 If Zelensky was watching now, what would your advice be?

Speaker 2 I may have already passed this to some folks, but the bottom line is that this was highly cinematic.

Speaker 2 Zelensky looked very strong.

Speaker 2 You know, Trump could spin it as he stood his ground also. I think what this really, there's an opportunity here.
You know,

Speaker 2 they're on the cusp of a big deal, a big real estate deal. Both parties kind of walk away from the negotiation.

Speaker 2 There's an opportunity to bring folks together and do a handshake at the end of this thing that looks really good for TV. And if it means that Ukraine could keep the U.S.

Speaker 2 on side a little bit longer, I mean, it might be just a little bit longer because the fact is that you could see the orientation of Trump consistently.

Speaker 2 If they could keep him on a little bit longer, give the Ukrainians additional support and the Europeans step up. That is a pragmatic step.
I'm not going to stand in the way of pragmatism.

Speaker 2 But if we could, again, keep the

Speaker 2 U.S. from siding with Putin, easing sanctions, there might be some sort of play here.
This deal, this mineral deal was not a

Speaker 2 bad thing.

Speaker 2 If Zvents just didn't have kept his mouth shut,

Speaker 2 things would have went on fine. There would have been a signed deal at the end.
Now there's an opportunity to

Speaker 2 both sides walk away looking pretty strong, maybe get what they want. But Zelensky is not one to bend the knee and fold like Lindsey Graham constantly does.
Goes there, meets.

Speaker 2 I mean, he's been there recently, actually,

Speaker 2 to Ukraine and met with Zelensky at Munich Security Conference and things of that nature. So he says one thing to Zelensky and then goes back around and

Speaker 2 just,

Speaker 2 I don't know. I don't want to be crude, but he does some pretty disgusting things to ingratiate himself with

Speaker 2 Trump.

Speaker 1 Alex vinman thank you for joining us i know a difficult day for for you and so many um everybody make sure you get this book the folly of realism um i read it i hope you read it too it's uh it was always right here right on my right on my desk finish it up before the interview alex thank you thank you looking forward to the next time and i appreciate the opportunity to communicate with your viewers and listeners um your audience uh can make the difference we appreciate it everybody hit subscribe let's get to 5 million subscribers.

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