Alexander Vindman on Trump Ukraine Disaster

I'm joined by Alexander Vindman, retired United States Army Lieutenant Colonel. Mr.
Vindman, what did we just watch unfold in the Oval Office with Donald Trump attacking President Zelensky? It was might be one of the most shameful moments, I think, ever in American history. You're Ukrainian.
You have unique experience in this area as well. What do you make of it? It was a shit show.
We've never seen anything quite like it. You know, basically the U.S.
has been a supporter of Ukraine for, even if it's been insufficiently supportive, it's been a supporter of Ukraine for three years, spending somewhere in the ballpark of 60 to $100 dollars to help Ukraine ward off a aggressor, Russia. And now we have a new Trump administration that invites Zelensky in to kind of work out a deal, figure out how the U.S.
might continue to support. And in this discussion, where Zelensky is saying, hey, this is what the Russians are doing to our troops.

They just kidnapped 20,000 of our kids and are brainwashing him. Trump and Vance attack Zelensky and say that he's not motivated to conduct peace and that Russia is not such a bad guy.
In this meeting, Trump basically sides with Russia and attacks Ukraine. And Zelinsky, in a very valiant way, stands his ground and tries to make the point that Russia can't be trusted.
Russia is the bad actor. The U.S.
is in danger by buying in, by constantly deceiving itself about Russia. And that devolves further into accusations that Ukraine's ungrateful.

It was just something that we haven't seen.

Not just undiplomatic, but a betrayal of Ukraine and our Western values

and the way we interact with the world.

It's 180 degrees different than it has been with any administration proceeding. You know, I'll show you they're trying to spin this now on Fox a certain way.
They had Lindsey Graham, Senator Graham, MAGA Republican go on moments ago. Let me show you what he said and get your reaction to it.
Let's play it. Takeaway.
I told President Trump, I said, there's two ways to look at this. Your interaction with Zelensky was maybe the best television I've ever seen, but it's deeper than that.
The world is now watching how Trump behaves and acts when he's pressed. I thought he stood up for America, that we're a good people.
We want to help you, but we're going to be respected. So I think Moscow is probably more afraid of Trump than ever.
Hope the Chinese are. And I hope the Iranians are.
As to Zelensky and Ukraine, to the Ukrainian people, America wants to help you. The way the meeting went today, you made it almost impossible to help you.

Again, I'll ask you.

Alex, do you think that Putin is more afraid than ever?

Is China more afraid than ever?

Is Iran more afraid than ever after watching what just happened in the Oval Office?

It's been a constant parade.

Those guys in Beijing and Kremlin have to be constantly drunk because they're endlessly popping bottles of champagne at the wins that they score, really without having to lift that much of a finger.

I mean, all Putin had to do thus far is to say that, you know, he's interested in peace.

He hasn't shown that he's interested in peace.

He hasn't started to ease the war, which he could do without without by just issuing an order. He's the aggressor.
And instead, what we have is Trump constantly catering to Russia, saying that signaling that he's willing to normalize relationships, that Russia has been treated too harshly. And this is just really unacceptable for somebody like Zelensky, whose country has suffered enormous losses and has enormous suffering.
And the Europeans also understand that the truth of the matter and are redoubling their support, are interested in pitching in more to help Ukraine. Ukraine is in their backyard.
They know that Russia is eyeing the West and eyeing some additional territories. So Lindsey Graham is a is an absolute coward because Trump did not sound strong.
He was attacking a ally when he didn't need to. This was just Zelensky saying that Trump can't trust Putin.
That's all he was saying. That's how the argument got started.
And J.D. Vance, I mean, he looked like an absolute clown.
I don't understand why Trump allowed Vance to blow up his deal. I mean, the deal was there.
The initial part of the press conference was totally fine. They both had their comments, you know, a series of questions unfolded.
And then when it came around to whether Putin could be trusted, Zelensky said, no, they've constantly broken the deal. And Vance took that as the opportunity to side again with Putin and criticize Zelensky.
And he blew up Trump's deal. I mean, that is how this whole thing started to devolve.
And then at that point, it got very emotional. Zelensky trying to point out that his country is suffering through a war, that they were not an aggressor.
And it was the most shameful interaction that the U.S. has had on the public stage with regards to foreign policy, you know, in decades.
I can't think of another example in which we behaved like this, behaved as such a poor ally. And so simply.
Actually we behaved like idiots. Because we can't simply understand.
The basic truths. That Russia is the aggressor.
We know that's the fact. We can't accept the basic truth.
That Putin is untrustworthy. And this has nothing to do with deal making.
If we wanted to make a deal. To end the war.
We would recognize that it's the Russians Russians that need to compromise, not the Ukrainians, that the Russians are the ones that are feeling quite a bit of pain. Yes, the Ukrainians are also, but they can't go on forever.
Kremlin can't sustain these kinds of losses. And all we need to do is continue to support Ukraine for a bit longer.
Instead, we're shifting stances, being a friend to our enemies and an enemy to our friends. Now, your background, of course, you were in the European Council.
You were a leader in this area, United States National Security Council for European Affairs. Your background being born Ukrainian.
What's your message to Ukraine right now, to the people of Europe who are seeing this? I think, you know, I guess even before we get there, I'll just point out that, you know, this book was undertaken after I was forced out of my military service after 22 years. I forced out of the White House after reporting Donald Trump's corruption and theing uh way back in in 2019 testifying and then i wanted to understand why we keep making the same mistakes over and over and the subtitle of this book really says it all it's how the u.s continues to deceive deceive itself about russia and um betrays ukraine i wish i'd used the present tense and not past tense i said deceived and betrayed it's been and betrays.
It continues to do that to this day. And it's to our own detriment.
It is not the fact that we are helping Ukraine to be, just to be a good actor. It's because we understand the importance of Ukraine holding back the Russians from further aggression, helping to stabilize Europe.
And my own experience, I mean, I left the Soviet Union as a refugee at the age of four. So my own experience has been entirely as an American, serving in the U.S.
military, serving in embassies in Moscow, in Kiev, in the Pentagon, where I wrote the Russia strategy, how we contend with Russia as an adversary, where I was invited to the White House to be able to continue to do the work of advancing the U.S. national security interest.
It is about the U.S. And it's shocking that we are now at this poison Kool-Aid stage of our relationship with Russia, appeasing them, accommodating them, always getting burned in the process instead of learning the lessons of the past and doing better, where we are far off from what I recommend, which is U.S.
moral leadership and the centrality of values to interest. It has a positive, I mean, I really lay out a positive case where it's going to take us to survive Trump.
But on the back end, when we start to correct for all the damage that was done, that we recapture moral leadership by saying that, you know, we shouldn't be focusing on the bright, shiny object that, you know, Trump is falling for right now with Putin saying, hey, I might be interested in peace. There might be some other deals we could work.
And never paying off when we should be focusing on the things that matter, like European security, because it's there for us when we are attacked. Europeans, because they're our largest training partner and they enable our prosperity.
So to me, it's about the U.S. and how the U.S.
could be safer. And we just made it a lot more dangerous for the U.S.
I'll show everybody the book right here. It's called The Folly of Realism, How the West Deceived Itself About Russia and Betrayed Ukraine.
I've read this before doing this interview. I'd encourage everybody to read it because it gives a roadmap of even how we got here.
And I don't want to give away what you say in the epilogue, but literally you predicted exactly what happened today. Almost word for word, it's in the epilogue.
So I'd ask people to read this, and it's important to understand how we got here again. Make sure you all check it out, might as mighty.
But I'll leave with this. You know, obviously this is devastating time right now.
If you're in Europe, especially if you're in Ukraine, we see Europe, the new chancellor of Germany, for example, and others even talking about just pushing away from the United States, totally just building a Europe first security force and basically may not even show up at NATO in June when the next major kind of conferences. So what do you think is going to happen? And just what's your message to, I guess, our former allies in Europe and Ukraine? We are burning bridges as fast as we can find them.
You know, the issue here is that I think what ultimately offended Trump is that he has a slogan of make America great, make America strong. And Zelensky is pointing out by siding with Russia, that actually the US is in danger, completely 100% valid point.
But it burst the bubble of Trump being the strongman and trump trump making us more safe and more prosperous that is uh that was a uh uh absolutely honest assessment from zelinski he knows what he's talking about and i think the fact is that other allies uh now look at what happened with the u.s going so hard in for putin and abandoning our allies that we are completely unreliable. I hope I'm wrong.
I unfortunately tend to be right about these things and it makes me sick that I see this train wreck unfolding. But I think we're burning bridges and we're creating opportunities for our enemies.
And it is putting our troops in danger.

It is making this country weaker.

And we have to, at this point, we just have to weather the storm and come back, try to institute some accountability with our elections in the future. and try to rein in these knuckleheads and get rid of folks like Lindsey Graham

and all these yes men that embolden and, you know, pander to Trump and drive him to make the worst decisions that I've seen thus far, frankly. You know, so Graham, other MAGAs are saying what needs to happen is Zelensky needs to go to Mar-a-Lago and apologize and, you know, say, I'm sorry.
That was a big misunderstanding. I don't know.
Doesn't that play right into kind of Trump's God complex? And has Trump doubled down? Or is that a smart geopolitical move to pretend and keep the folly going? Well, if Zelensky was watching now, what would your advice be? I may have already passed this to some folks, but the bottom line is that this was highly cinematic. Zelensky looked very strong.
You know, Trump could spin it as if, as he stood his ground also. I think what this really, there's an opportunity here.
You know, they're on the cusp of a big deal, a big real estate deal. Both parties kind of walk away from the negotiation.
There's an opportunity to bring folks together and do a handshake at the end of this thing that looks really good for TV. And if it means that Ukraine could keep the U.S.
on side a little bit longer. I mean, it might be just a little bit longer because the fact is that you could see the orientation of Trump consistently.
If they could keep him on a little bit longer, give the Ukrainians additional support and the Europeans step up, that is a pragmatic step. I'm not going to stand in the way of pragmatism.
But if we could, again, keep the U.S. from siding with Putin, easing sanctions, there might be some sort of play here.
This deal, this mineral deal was not a bad thing. If Vance just kept his mouth shut, things would have went on fine.
There would have been a signed deal at the end. Now there's an opportunity to both sides walk away looking pretty strong,

maybe get what they want.

But Zelensky is not one to bend the knee and fold like Lindsey Graham

constantly does, goes there, meets, I mean, he's been there recently,

actually, to Ukraine and met with Zelensky at Munich Security Conference

and things of that nature.

So he says one thing to Zelensky and then he goes back around and just,

Thank you. and met with Zelensky at Munich Security Conference and things of that nature.
So he says one thing to Zelensky, and then he goes back around and just, I don't know. I don't want to be crude, but he does some pretty disgusting things to ingratiate himself with Trump.
Alex Vindman, thank you for joining us. I know a difficult day for you and so many.
Everybody, make sure you get this book, The Folly of Realism. I read it.
I hope you read it too. It was always right here, right on my desk.
Finished it up before the interview. Alex, thank you.
Thank you. Looking forward to the next time and appreciate the opportunity to communicate with your viewers and listeners.
Your audience can make the difference.

We appreciate it.

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