Michael Knowles V Matt Fradd: “Christian Heresies" FACE-OFF

Which Catholic group has been condemned for heretical views and for rejecting the legitimacy of modern popes?

Is it A, the Jesuits, B, the Legionnaires of Christ, C, the Society of St. Pius X, D, Opus Dei?

Oh, he's got none of these right. And he doesn't even realize it.

Yeah.

Do we have to throw this one out? Because like we...

No, we should leave it. I want your ignorance to be on the display as mine is.

What is a heresy? I don't know. I'm a non-denominational Christian.
But do you know who does know and may or may not be guilty of a few? The two men stepping into today's intellectual arena. Michael Knowles and Matt Fradd.
One of them has spent a life studying the writings of Aquinas, memorizing councils and years with a dialect coach to develop a convincing Australian accent. The other has attempted the Bible in a year plan at least a dozen times and hasn't made it past 2nd Kings.
I won't say who's who, but today we will find out who really knows more about Catholic heresies. Here's how we play.
I will read a question, each podcaster will have 30 seconds to write down their answer, and in the end, the loser will be forced to give a 30-second commercial for the winner and admit that John Calvin had some good points. This is Face Off.
Here's it. It's wonderful to be on my own show.
I'm a little nervous, though, because last I checked, Mr. Fradd has his own Catholic AI company.
Is that right, truthfully? So how do I know you're not just plugged in there pulling up all the answers?

Because I also believe that it's always immoral without exception to lie.

And so if you believe that, then I don't have anything pulled up.

Yeah, okay.

All right.

This is good.

Thank you.

People should go check out Truthly.

It's like ChatGPT went through OCIA, got baptized, and is now the best evangelist.

So check it out.

Thank you for pointing that out. Certainly.
I hope that I get to light up a Pines with Aquinas cigar later. But for now, shall we turn to the resident heretic to ask the questions? I think we should.
I'm glad that Matt couched that, that he's always honest, because he has a computer in front of him and can Google any of these questions. Yeah.
As long as my hands aren't by the keyboard. By the way, I'm going to fail this this i literally asked before we click record what is this on so i haven't spent much time yeah here we go go for it that'll level that'll level out the playing field okay matt if it makes you feel better win or lose you do have the better oil painting on your set like hands down your painting does look more impressive than michael so sure unless you're a iconoclast come on sorry wow all right starting out strong all right here we go first question what's the bone most often broken by heretics what does that even mean i don't i gotta write that down what is the bone broken by heretics the do we Do we have to write this on our board? Yes.
Ten seconds. Get to write something quick.
The... I got no idea.
I got nothing. And...
Or... Time.
I don't have anything. It's some play on like orthopedics or something.
I'm sorry, gentlemen. The word we're looking for is the blasphemer.
The blasphemer. Blasphemer.
No, that's the bone that constitutes the heretics. The bone that the heretic breaks is some play on orthodoxy.
Listen, you're not an expert on rules. The question was what it was, and you guys are both starting 0-0.
So here we go. With the next question, gentlemen, dial it in.
If someone claims Jesus is a creation of God and therefore distinct from God, what heresy are they guilty of? Is it A, Nestorianism, B, modalism, C, Docetism, D, Arianism? Oh, I can't show him. Can I? Don't show it yet.
Don't show it yet. Brad, don't do it.
I can't. I don't have my glasses on.
I just want Michael to write down. I'm ready.
I wrote it. I feel pretty confident that Brad's got this one.
This is the easiest of the early church erosies. Come on.
Don't even pretend. Why don't you show the audience first, then? It's Arianism.
I could just What is Nestorianism? I know that was the one that Muhammad encountered. I think that one actually started Islam, but I forget exactly what that one is.
I can teach you right now, but it might be a future question. It might be a question.
You're right. Hold off on it.
It may be. Number two, when was the last official execution for heresy? And this is closest without going over.
Give me the year.

Oh, my gosh.

The last year.

The official.

Because there were some, you know,

I have no idea.

Wild priests that may have done a thing or two.

But official.

What year was it?

I mean, I'm just going to guess.

How's that?

Closest without going over.

So remember the rules.

Closest without going over.

All right.

And here's, gosh, official by who?

The state?

Oh, shoot.

The state or the church?

No, it's not the church.

Where does one begin on the other end?

That's the question.

Make a great point.

You ready?

All right, Knowles, what do you got?

I say 1609.

I said 1452 for no reason

except it was a blind shot in the dark.

Michael, that was very impressive.

It was 1612.

Yes!

I only said 1611, and I don't know why, but I was like, let me go.

Who was it?

Edward Whiteman was the last person executed for heresy in England.

Let's go.

In 1612.

All right.

Yeah.

I did have England in my mind.

The church?

Let's go.

Yeah, England.

I thought for sure it would be like in Italy or something, but no, England. The Italians are pretty chill, actually.
They don't, the mob kills people, but the church in the sky. I disagree.
I've driven through Rome. It was anything but chill.
Yeah. They're all frenetic.
They're just not really doing anything. All right.
Number three, which heresy claims that Jesus was only a non-divine man who was later adopted as the son of God by the descending spirit? Is it A, Ebonism, B, Adoptism, C, Audainism, D, Unitarianism? A lot of isn't it? All right. Wasn't it like in the name? Let's go, Michael.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. You could have been a little bit more.
B isism the correct answer is b adoptism okay it's adopt your pronunciation of these heresies by the way is really funny it's so hard reading these things on as a protestant who's never been aware of any of these like it's very hard you just believe them yeah you haven't been aware of them you just held them more heresies in a moment first though if you want to get the latest news and if you want to understand what the news actually means, come check out and subscribe to The Michael Knowles Show every weekday at noon Eastern. I will take you beneath the surface of daily political events to reveal their historical, philosophical, even religious roots.
Catch it Monday through Friday at noon Eastern. Now, back to face-off, heresies with Matt Fradd.
All right, number four. Which militant heretical group rejected property, demanded all debts be canceled and glorified martyrdom? Is it A, the Donastus, B, Albigensians, C, Circumcilians, or D, Democrats? I think I got it.
All right, what do you have? Was it the Albigensians? The correct answer is C, the Circumcilians. Circumcilians, huh? I've never heard of them.
Yeah. Those pesky Circumcilians.
Because the Albigensians also were militant and pro-death and commies. Yeah.
Interesting. I kind of want partial credit for that.
I mean, I don't care. I guess I was cancelled out, but I think that would also describe the Albigensians.
Well, the Albigensians were dualists. They were also known as the Cathars, weren't they? The Cathars, yeah.
They were big into poverty and ascetical practices. And that's actually why the Dominicans and Franciscans arose.
Well, you know the difference. As a sort of response to them.
Matt, you know the difference between, do you know the similarities and differences between the Jesuits and the Dominicans? Okay, I'm thinking this is a joke. No.
Oh, well, they're both orders of the Catholic Church, both Spanish, founded by Spaniards, Spanish orders, St. Dominic and St.
Ignatius of Loyola. But they're both founded to combat heresy.
The Dominicans founded to combat Albigensianism. The Jesuits founded to combat Protestantism.
But do you know the difference between the orders? What's the difference? When's the last time you ever heard of an Albigensian? That's good. I heard that actually from Peter Kreef now that you bring it up.
That's good. Yeah.
Did I miss something? I don't get it at all. Anyway.
Anyway, we'll be here all night. Tip your waitress.
Anyway. All right.
Number five. Which early Jewish Christian sect claimed Jesus was the Messiah, but not divine, and insisted on following the Mosaic law? Is it A, the Marcionites? B, the Sadducees? C, Ebonites? D, Nestorians? Okay.
Are you ready? I think that was Ebiotism. Is that Ebiotism? Yeah.
The correct answer is C, the Ebonites. Ebonites? I thought it was Ebiotism.
According to whatever translation this is, Ebonites. Like ebony? But I mean, that mean that's correct i mean that's the right yeah okay

all right that's the sect of people though not like their ism that was like the sect of people

yeah who are you talking about those people okay it's the jesuits yeah all right number six which

heresy affirmed jesus as savior but rejected the hebrew bible and described the old testament god

as a lesser wrathful deity is it a docetism b ebonism c marcionism d adoptism

Thank you. And at some point I'd like a score count, because I'm pretty sure he's winning.

You ready?

We can do that.

That would be Marcionism.

C.

That is correct.

C, Marcionism. And can we get a score count from the control room? Knowles, five, frad, four.
This is getting close, gentlemen. Neck to neck.
Whoa. All right.
If only you had the blasphemer. Yeah, the blasphemer.
Yeah, I really want to challenge that one. But anyway.
Number seven. Which heresy rejected both the divinity and messiahship of Jesus while adhering to Old Testament law? Is it A, Gnosticism, B, Arianism, C, Manichaeism, D, Rabbinic Judaism? And this is the one that gets us fired from the Daily Wire.
Okay, that's fine. Would that be D, Rabbinical Judaism? I just wrote Ben Shapiro.
I will take either. It is rabbinic Judaism.

Would you call Judaism a heresy?

According to Google heresies.

Doesn't a heresy deviate from the religion?

So like, you know, you could call Islam a heresy because it deviates.

Like it's founded because Muhammad meets a historian.

But for the rabbinic Jews, if they never believed in any kind of Christianity in the first place, place would they be heretics or just infidels that's what it said it's heresy yeah all right number eight in what year did the roman empire criminalize heresy through the edict of thessalonica through the edict of thessalonica this is the closest without going over again all right closest not to be ped pedantic. I think it's pronounced Thessalonica, right?

Or am I?

Look, maybe you're right.

I don't know.

I don't know, but I'm going to guess.

Well, Michael's on a guessing hot streak with this whole closest thing.

I was going to say 300.

I said 315.

He's such a savage.

It's 380.

Yeah, let's go, baby.

380. You know why? I figured it had to be after the Edict of Milan, which legalizes Christianity.
What was that? That was like 311 or something? 313, something like that? Wow, let's go, baby. Oh, man.
Just running away with it. I've got to catch up here.
Yeah, all right. I'm trying to think of my 30-second advertisement.
I know it's coming.

It's going to be blank.

It's going to be speechless.

All right, number nine.

What was Priscillian, who was the first Christian executed for heresy by the Roman officials,

officially condemned for in 386?

Was it A, denying the Trinity, B, practicing sorcery, C, teaching Pelagianagianism d desecrating sacraments c my problem is when the name doesn't line up with a heresy i'm out of luck is it a the correct answer is b practicing sorcery frad gets see i knew that i was completely convinced the whole time wow practicing sorcery. He's still up one.
Sorcery isn't heresy. Sorcery, right? Sorcery is bad and sacrilegious, but it's not heresy.
He was a Christian who was doing it. So I think that's...
Yeah, blasphemer. We began with blasphemer.
I feel like we can't hold him too strictly to the... Yeah, you're right.
No, you're right. This is in the league of Blasphemer.
All right, well, it's getting closer. All right, here we go.
If someone denies church teaching unknowingly, what classification of heretic are they? No multiple choice for this. Yeah, all right.
I'm ready. I think we have some Catholics at the office that cling to this one.
As long as I don't know, I'm good. There's quite a lot of things he's writing there.
Hopefully he's making a joke about the person we're thanking him. All right, ready? Yeah.
What do you got, Fred? Is that material heretic? Yeah. Mike, what do you have? I said a venial sinning heretic.
Venial, not moral. But slash anyone who was catechized in the 80s or 90s well that was clever but it's not right it is actually material heretic now we are tied up gentlemen yikes yes finally yeah i guess you're right because it's not not all material heretics were catechized in the 80s or 90s but all people who were catechized in the 80s or 90s have been material heretics.
Okay. All right.
Here's the way I remember it. Here's a bit of catechesis with a mnemonic device.
So you've got the distinction between material heresy and formal heresy. So with material heresy, you have the material you need to then later be perhaps formed into a serious heresy.
Wow, that's good. I don't know if that helps anybody.
Okay, all right. No, I'll take that.
I'm sure it helps somebody. Maybe it'll help you with this one.
Number 11, which Catholic group has been condemned for heretical views and for rejecting the legitimacy of modern popes? Is it A, the Jesuits, B, the Legionnaires of Christ, C, the Society of St. Pius X, D, Opus Dei.
Oh, he's got none of these right. Yeah.
And he doesn't even realize it. Yeah.
Should we write the real group? Yeah, we could write the real group, but it's none of them. Do we have to throw this one out? No, we should leave it.
I want your ignorance to be on first place as mine be on some crackpot researchers that have really dug into catholic heresies since the 80s when i was catechized yeah hold on i mean i guess you could call these people not even heret well not heretics but um at least um set of a contest yeah the same days the city of a contest or the real Now I said, right. And who knows? I mean, be...
Yeah, the sedes. The sedivacontists are the real answer.
It would be a schism. Now, I said...

Right.

Sedivacontists?

And who knows?

I mean, some of them...

Maybe you could, I guess, in principle,

accuse some of them of heresy,

but the one...

I guess you were going to say SSPX,

but they're just canonically irregular, Mr. Davies.

Well, that is actually the abbreviation

that we had for it,

and that is correct.

If we can scroll back so I see the name again, it was—answer was C, the Society of St. Pius X, SSPX.
That's incorrect, is the problem. You lose a point.
You're wrong about that. Hold on.
Can we pull up truthfully real quick and double-check this? We don't know. We don't know truthfully for that one.
The thing is, though, you tried to trick us with that first answer because the trick, of course, is that the Jesuits have never been formally condemned for their heresies. So that was out there.
And no, SSPX, whatever problems there are, they're canonically irregular, we say. And some accuse them of being sismatic, but it's controversial.
But it's the say days that you wanted to say. Can we double check on the control room? We don't need to upset the trads either.
You don't need to check it, Ben, I can assure you. I even threw out a couple of these because it was like that where it's like, oh, you know, it was just not officially conchamated.
This was like the one that it would say like it was heretical. Yeah, you should delete that whatever website you were on.
You should use Truthly. You should use Truthly.
Right now, go to hallow.com slash Knowles. I want to share something special with you as we move from Lent into Easter.
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All right, number 12. Which pope once declared heretics to be worse than Muslims? Was it A, Pope Innocent III, B, Pope Urbane II, C, Pope Gregory IX, D, Pope Benedict IX? Yeah, I like how you've turned Urban II, who's very based and declares the First Crusade, into a kind of more posh, nice version, when he's Pope Urbane.
You know, that's like his... It rolls off the tongue.
It's like Urban in the day, and then Urbane at the cocktail party. You tell me when you're ready, and we'll flip flip this bad boy around kind of torn on two but i don't know i said b the answer is c pope gregory the ninth said gregory the ninth what'd you have fred i had the same as him i know i had a c i had c no yeah yeah what was that you said about the immorality of flying under all flying um hold on sorry only when it doesn.
Sorry, only when it doesn't benefit me. I should have added that last time.
Was Gregory IX, like I'm wondering if Urban II was the first crusade, obviously to go slay all the Saracens, but then was Gregory IX like the Cathar crusade or something when you're saying, actually, we've got enough heretics here that we need to crusade against or I don't know. I don't remember.
I didn't even get the answer right, so I got nothing. Yeah, okay nothing yeah okay darn i was really leaning for a while that way okay never mind next one i haven't been following you the entire time yeah but i think we are still tied going down the home stretch yikes here we go 13 which heresy did the catholic church launch the albigensian this is gonna kill me for which heresy did the for which heresy did the catholic church launch the albigensian crusade to kill me.
For which heresy did the Catholic Church launch the Albigensian Crusade to suppress?

A, Montanism.

Would it be the Albigensianism?

I think it was Albigensianism.

I'm no scholar.

A, Montanism.

B, Donatism.

C, Catharism. Or D, Nestorianism.
B, Donatism. C, Catharism.

Or D, Nestorianism.

So, sorry, gentlemen.

I got it.

Your emphasis, Mr. Benjamin, is quite interesting, but it would be Catharism.

It is Catharism.

C.

Also known as...

Albigensianism.

Albigensianism.

I had no idea.

It's way easier when you put it that way. I had no idea those two words were connected.
All right, 14. What was the heresy introduced by Gottfried Thomasis that claimed Jesus gave up some divine attributes in his incarnate state? Is it A, mortalism? B, kenosis, C, humanic Christianity,

D, removism?

Humanic Christianity sounds very 19th century, so

I'm going with that. Y'all are both

wrong. It's B,

kenosis. I thought that's what happens

when you stop eating carbs.

Isn't that?

My body's in kenosis. Doesn't kenosis mean knowledge? I couldn't tell you.
And if it does, what does that have to do with, I wonder. Well, this is something that can be looked up later.
Thank you for indicating me. We should look this all up untruthfully.
Definitely untruthfully. Yeah.
All right. This is the final question, gentlemen.
Thanks. Is this a draw so far? I think it's a draw.
It is. They'll check.
All right. So is it possible for us to draw, or will you give us a bonus question so one of us can win? There will be a bonus question so someone can win.
Okay. All right.
All right. Queen Mary I of England, known as Bloody Mary, launched a campaign to purge heresy from England after her false pregnancies,

which she considered, quote, God's punishment for tolerating heretics.

How many heretics were burned at the stake during her reign?

This is an estimation.

Not enough. That's how many.

Closest without going over.

Oh, come on.

Oh, we have to end on one of these, too. Sorry, Matt.

And, you know, this is an estimation, but we'll just go with this number. I'm waiting to see how much his pen moves before I know what I'm going to do.
Oh, my gosh. These are all really...
He's really good at these guesses, you know? Yeah, he loves the close all right i'm just gonna pick a ridiculous number hoping that he went too high all right all right michael what do you have was it ridiculous it wasn't ridiculous it was reasonable and modest what did you put i said 90 oh crap i okay thousand? A thousand. The massacre, Mary.
The correct answer is 280. Let's go.
Whoa! Oh, man, right at the finish line. Well done.
Based on no knowledge. That was just a guess based on how numbers work.
Wow. Story of your life, yeah? Whoa.
Well, Michael, soak it in for a moment. However, if you wish, since this is a gentleman's game, you can put- Yeah, I don't.
I don't at all wish to do a double or nothing. No, I just want to win.
Risk it all double or nothing on a bonus question. Yeah, yeah, double or nothing.
I do have a story for you, though, about Queen Mary, which is I looked this up one time because on one side I'm Italian and Catholic, Irish Catholic too.

But on one side I'm Super Wasp in English and like the Mayflower cigar side.

And so I was trying to figure out if there was a chance that I was a direct descendant of Sir Francis Knowles.

Sir Francis Knowles, who was keeper of the Privy Purse, who was the imprisoner of Mary,

Queen of Scots, and who mocked St. Edmund Campion on the scaffold and demanded that he renounce the

Pope. But instead of that, following this line of like really royal, well-educated people,

I think instead the last Knowles I can trace was a mariner in New Hampshire and very likely

illiterate. You win some, you lose some.
Man, I won some. You did.
Let's go, baby. No, I gotta, Mr.
Fratt, I have to admit, going into this, I was a little nervous because you have much more religious knowledge than I do. What I didn't count on is all the random number questions.
So anyway, thank you, Ben. I appreciate that.
And for your marvelous pronunciation of all of the heresies. Michael, to the victor goes the spoils, even though, you know, it wasn't exactly a gentleman's way to do it or win it.
So Mr. Frat, would you please give us a 30-second commercial for the Michael Knulls? All right.
Set timer for 30 seconds. Thank you, Truthly.
I mean, my goodness. I mean, Michael Knowles, I mean, he's not sure if Ben Shapiro is a heretic or not.
He hasn't made up his mind. He leans towards no.
He's a wonderful guy. He's got a great line of cigars.
And just he's got hair. Yeah, hold on.
You've got like 20 more seconds. Is that all out out he's got really just he's got a couple of eyeballs and it's all held together with with like a face you know and that's there we go that's time that that was the worst you wouldn't even get in there that i would happily call ben an infidel i can't that.
That's terrible. All right.
Well, a plug is a plug. Wow.
That was absolutely beautiful and heartfelt, Matt. And there you have it.
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