Michael & The Ghost Hunter: "We Recorded The Ghost Screaming" | Kristina Costanza

These are questions that take cultures thousands of years to answer.

During Answer the Call, I take questions from people just like you about their problems, opportunities, challenges, or when they simply need advice.

How do I balance all of this grief, responsibility?

How do you repair this kind of damage?

My daughter, Michaela, guides the conversations as we hopefully help people navigate their lives.

Everyone has their own destiny.

Everyone.

I was at an asylum in upstate New York.

I would tell these spirits you can use my body, talk through me, and they would.

My team captured a crazy class A ABP.

I come at these things with a healthy dose of skepticism.

It doesn't seem that bad.

The longer I stayed in, the darker experiences I had.

It changed and multiplied into these eight to ten foot tar beings.

They'd be grinning at me and taunting me, kind of like, I got you.

Did you ever think, you know, maybe I should get out of this?

It just kept getting worse and worse right up until I got saved.

Have you ever seen a ghost?

It's amazing how many people you talk to.

You go into a room of 20 people.

Multiple people will say they have seen a ghost at some point.

Everyone pretends like they don't believe in ghosts, but then a lot of people will tell you they've seen one.

My guest today has hunted them.

That would be Christina Gostanza.

Christina, thank you for coming on the show.

Thank you for having me on.

You're a former ghost hunter.

Yes, I am.

How do you get into that line of work?

Oh boy, that's a loaded question.

Well, you don't get into it without being curious to begin with, but it kind of just found me.

I grew up being very afraid of the spiritual realm, being very aware of it, but not ever wanting to make contact with anything or not even really realizing you could outside of your everyday psychic, I guess.

And I grew up going to church.

I was raised Catholic and it wasn't ever something that was

kind of

in terms of going to psychics.

It wasn't ever, I wasn't told that they were bad or anything, but I was very curious.

And when I was 14 years old, I heard my first disembodied voice.

I was in my grandmother's attic and I heard this voice just whisper in my my ear.

And every hair in my body stood up.

I stood straight up and I was very afraid, very afraid.

I didn't want anything to do with it, but there was this little spark of curiosity that lit up within inside me.

And I'm like, do I have this gift?

I was told by other psychics that I have this gift, this ability.

And I'm like, okay, let me just shelf that for a little while, move on with my teenage life.

And a few years later, I was 16 years old and I heard another voice in my bedroom this time.

And it was whispering yes, just over and over into my ear.

And I had a deck of tarot cards that I had just purchased from a local bookstore, and I decided to try to make contact and just kind of make up my own spells and stuff like that.

And to really no avail, but that was really when the curiosity started peaking in me.

Yeah, hold on.

I got to reword it.

So you say you're a kid, and you say you were aware of the spiritual world, but you didn't want to communicate with it.

But you were raised Catholic.

So you're, at the very least, you're praying to God.

Yes.

You're availing yourself of the sacraments.

You're participating in some way in the spiritual world.

Yes, I loved going to church.

I loved God.

I had this reverence for him.

I believed in heaven and just the,

I loved the holiness of church and God and everything like that.

But you were also going to psychics.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What?

Why are you doing that?

It does not compute, does not mix.

Because I didn't know.

I didn't know my Bible.

I wasn't reading the word.

I didn't know that God had told me to stay away from that stuff you know very clearly very obviously but i thought i could mix the two so how do you decide to go to a psychic you're just walking down the street in the strip mall you see the get your fortune told

well i grew up right outside of um boston in quincy massachusetts and which is very close to salem massachusetts very famous for the witch trials it is the witch city now a lot of psychkics a lot of ghost tours all these things and i'd go up and visit you know, once a summer, just for a day or something, and stop into the local psychic and get my future read.

So, okay, there they say, we're going to read your future, but it's not necromancy.

It's not, hey, we're going to contact great grandma Sally.

No.

No, I wasn't anything part of seance-y type stuff.

Maybe I had a sleepover trying to do those types of things, but nothing formally or professionally, really, until I was about like 21 years old.

Okay, so you're, you're raised Catholic.

It doesn't stick.

You fall away from the faith.

You're talking to psychics.

You hear disembodied voices.

Do you immediately recognize the disembodied voices as a spiritual reality?

Or do you think, oh, maybe I just heard something go bump in the night, maybe this is just my imagination?

Well, I definitely, I never thought that because I was told by psychics that I had the ability.

Other people in my life, my dad was sensitive, he was spiritual.

He was a born-again Christian, but he also believed in that stuff as well.

We knew there was life beyond this physical realm.

So to me,

it made me feel special that these voices, these what I thought were people, would try to find me and communicate with me.

And I didn't know why, but all I knew is I wanted to find out more.

You know, it just kind of led me down that breadcrumb trail until I really started professionally doing it for a living.

So then who do you think is saying shh and yes?

Do you think it's a ghost?

Do you think it's a demon?

Do you think it's a

good spirit?

Do you, at that time, what do you think?

At that time, I thought it was a ghost, which would have been, in my interpretation back then,

the voice of a a person who was formerly living

as opposed to a demon or an entity or a spiritual being.

Okay.

Yeah.

So you've now heard the second voice.

You're feeling very special.

Yes.

You have the special gift because the local psychic told you.

So then what?

Then I just kind of lived my life.

I'm doing, I'm pursuing photography and acting and all these different things.

And I had met a former teammate of mine at a nail salon and she was showing the nail tech an EVP which is an electronic electronic voice phenomenon which is basically when you take a digital recorder or it could be

you know cassette at that point as well you ask questions and when you play it back in between the questions you can actually capture voices answers and different things and so she was showing the nail tech

evidence that she had captured on a former ghost hunt and I was like wow that is crazy and at that time I was trying to build a photography business I'm like, Harry, if you have any photos, let me know.

And that's how it all happened.

So is it real?

We have some simulacrum of one of these devices, I guess, here.

Is that real?

Or is it kind of like the pictures of Bigfoot?

You say it's grainy.

I think, did he say, you know, go drink a Yoohoo?

Or was it, hold on, I don't, is that just a scratch on the tape?

Well, there's different classes of EBPs.

So there's class A, B, C.

It depends on the clarity, if you can really hear it, what, how how long it is and whatnot, what exactly the content is.

But a lot of that stuff I think is real because I've witnessed it personally, being in a big event where nobody is talking.

You're in an abandoned building in the middle of nowhere and you're capturing what seems to be disembodied voices having conversations or yelling and screaming and smacking in old asylums.

It's,

yeah, I wish it was made up.

I think maybe some of the evidence that you hear out there could be, but what I personally witnessed was 1,000%.

Because you were recording it.

I was recording it, yeah.

So it wouldn't be some planted hoax thing that you were in charge of it.

Correct.

What are the conversations about?

So basically when you're at a location, you're asking, who are you?

Why are you here?

What's your name?

Is there anything you'd like to say?

Are you in pain?

Just maybe what's your favorite color?

Are you happy that we're here talking to you?

Just kind of getting playful with questions, maybe being creative, just asking your standard run-of-the-mill questions, I guess you would ask a ghost at that time.

And the craziest one I ever caught was at an asylum in upstate New York.

Where was it?

Rolling Hills Asylum.

Yeah, yeah, I think I know that asylum.

Yeah, I've been there many times.

I grew up in upstate, a little north of the city, so I think I remember.

Yep, yep.

And I've been there many times.

And the first time I was there, I captured, me and my team captured

a crazy Class A EVP with what sounds like a patient-nurse struggle,

like a shrieking scream, and you hear like a smack, almost as if the nurse smacked the patient, and you hear like, don't you ever do that.

It was, and this, I'm not going to be super loud right now, but it was, I actually listened to it, and it was horrifying.

Chills, you can't make it up because then we, if you hear in the recording, we just carry on with our conversation.

No one is making this up.

You have sound guys next to you.

You have people recording.

So it's sometimes, if there's a lot of people there, it's hard to fake the evidence.

Can you hear it in the room or you only hear it it on the playback?

Only on the playback.

That's the thing.

You don't hear it.

Sometimes certain people like myself, I could hear certain things with my own ears,

and then I would also hear it on the playback.

So it would confirm what I was hearing or different pieces of equipment would confirm what my own body, my eyes, my ears were seeing and feeling.

I believe that a lot of this stuff is real.

I also come at these things with a healthy dose of skepticism.

Having been to, I think it was that asylum, but I definitely remember a shutdown asylum in upstate New York,

you can feel a kind of spiritual oppression around this place.

It is dark.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It is a lot of, especially that one, there's been so much darkness that's happened there.

You know, it was a poorhouse back in the 1800s where people would just send menopausal women or disabled children.

Just a lot of dark, dark things happened.

And they would have, you know, upstate New York gets very cold in the winter.

They couldn't bury the bodies.

So they would have to stack them up in the morgue.

And I would put myself in that meatlocker and try to do these ghost sessions, trying to communicate, trying to capture evidence.

And being down in these basements, you just, you can feel the heaviness and the darkness in some of these places.

Why would you want to do this?

I mean, assuming if you think it's real, because I think that this stuff is real in principle, though there can be plenty of hoaxes, but if you think it's real,

we've talked on this show before about the demonic and the angelic and the you know all of these sorts of things but if you think it's real

to me it's kind of like cockroaches i think cockroaches are real i think we need to fight cockroaches so they don't take over our house but i don't want to be around cockroaches i don't want to put myself in the cockroach headquarters what would draw you to pursue this i agree now like looking back why would what would ever possess me to do this but when you don't understand the spiritual ramifications of seeking after these things, it's just fun.

There could be a multitude of reasons.

Some people are in it just for the thrill of it.

Some people are actually skeptical.

I know atheists and skeptics that didn't believe in it, that they were doing this to seek and they wanted to have their minds change.

There was people like myself that were curious.

You want to be able to make contact.

And at the time that I was in it, it was a lot of scientific equipment involved.

People were using electromagnetic field readers, thermal imaging cameras, and

I myself wanted to bring spirituality back to it.

And back in my days, I wanted to add the feminine touch to it.

And I added.

What do you mean the feminine?

The feminine touch.

Kind of, let's not be so, this is my mindset back in the middle.

Be nice to the ghosts, you mean?

Kind of more the spiritual, yeah, be nice to the ghosts.

But it was a very male-dominated field at the time, and wanting to bring some softness and witchcraft.

I'm just going to say it, I want to bring witchcraft

into the industry.

Yeah, do these spells and rituals to try to kick up the energy.

So hold on.

Were you a witch?

Yeah, you name it.

I was.

I was kind of a spiritual cafeteria spiritualist, as they would say.

A little bit of this, a little bit of that.

I was very much into the new age, the law of attraction, crystals,

candles, tarot cards, etc.

So you were a millennial white woman, you were pretty.

Yes, okay.

Yeah, oh, yeah, and I was vegan at one point.

Yep, all the stuff.

You get it.

Yeah.

So you were dabbling in all of this, but did you, were you conscious of it?

Would you say, oh, I'm a little witchy?

Oh, I wore it like a badge of honor.

You know, I was witchy.

I was the ghost girl, even though people that I grew up with would be like, you're what?

Like you, you were afraid of everything.

But it just so quickly became my identity.

I was, that was who I was.

I was the ghost girl, and I was witchy.

I was, I wore all these labels, you know, liberal, witchy, vegan, all these different things tomato tomato yeah right and I because I was seeking I was hurting and I was seeking for identity why were you hurting I was hurting I mean I

was just struggling with depression I was struggling with anxiety I was I wasn't walking with the Lord so I had this big God-shaped hole in my heart so I was trying to fill that with witchcraft with drinking drugs alcohol ghost hunting all of the things that kind of satisfy the flesh for a time being, but the next morning you just wake up and you're just as empty, if not emptier than before.

You know, I was going to joke and say back in my wayward youth when I was atheist, a bit more libertarian, I said, yeah, the drinking, the partying, the girls, this, staying up late.

Ghost hunting was not on the list.

Except that's actually not fair because when I...

I was a teenager, my mother died unexpectedly, and I did have a strong impulse to say, hey,

I was an atheist.

I said, can I,

is it possible, can you talk to the dead?

Is it possible to talk to God?

I didn't pursue it that much, but I did Google it.

I remember, so even that, I get, okay, I get it.

When you're in a,

when you're lost and you're confused and you're longing for something, I actually do see how you could end up to that place.

But then the story you mentioned, you say you heard this conversation between a patient and a nurse and a smack and a this.

So ostensibly, that was a real event that took place that you were hearing the echo of.

Possibly.

So what was it?

What do you now think that was?

But I now believe from just being on my own spiritual journey and what I've read in the Bible is that these are familiar spirits that the Lord talks about.

They are demons masquerading as beings of light, just like how 2 Corinthians talks about Satan himself comes as a being of light, and so do his minions.

And these spirits are watching, they're understanding what you're seeking, what you're curious about, and

they, I personally believe they were pretending they're putting on a show to draw you in, kind of like a mosquito light, you know, where you think you're heading towards something that's bright and beautiful.

It seems real, it seems good, and the closer you get, you don't realize it's leading you to death.

That these beings are going to do anything they can to get you.

as far away from the Lord as possible.

So I personally, that's why they do come as people you know.

Scenarios, you know, depending on the location you're at, like, oh, there was a cowboy that lived here and oh, I saw the cowboy.

He's going to come here.

I think they're very clever and they're really maniacal and they're going to do anything they can to keep you coming back.

So you're saying 100% confident it's demons.

Yes.

Is it a possibility that it's a ghost?

I know that's

a question.

I personally, from what I have, from what the Lord has led me to believe, from what I've read in the Bible, I don't personally believe that we can come back because it says that man is destined to die once and immediately face judgment.

I don't see anywhere that says we can come back and talk to our loved ones and, hey, my necklace is in the drawer over here.

Communicate in that sense.

But there are ghosts in the Bible.

There are ghosts in the Bible, yes.

There's the ghost of the witch of Endor.

The ghost of Samuel comes up.

And the witch kind of actually seems surprised that she conjured the ghost.

She probably was a fraudster before that, but you see the ghost of Samuel.

You see in the transfiguration, the ghosts of Moses and Elijah.

Those are ghosts, right?

They're not demons.

Those are their spirits.

Right.

Well, what the witch of Endor, what I find fascinating is I don't know if she meant to do that.

I don't know if she's ever done that before.

Right, right.

I agree.

And what I love about this, this topic is that even just scholars, biblical scholars, there's no like one consensus on the witch of Endor of what actually happened, because I'm between two schools of thought where, all right, right, the Bible says that Samuel came up.

Okay, so it says it's Samuel, doesn't say it's a familiar spirit.

So I'm like, okay, maybe God allowed this to happen.

But I'm like, why would God allow to use something so sinful to do this?

Because I'm like, okay, maybe it was a familiar spirit.

There's a lot of debate on this topic.

All I know is no matter what happened,

it wasn't good.

It led to Saul's death.

And it also, we're not called to do necromancy.

The whole thing was outside of God's.

No, no, of course.

I totally agree with this.

And we shouldn't do necromancy or pursue all that stuff.

But this is an important question for the ghost hunting phenomenon.

Because, okay, put the witch of Andorra aside.

Christ is transfigured, and

he's flanked by two guys, Moses and Elijah.

It's not them physically.

It's not, they're not, you know, flesh and bone.

It's their spirit.

Ghost just means spirit.

You wouldn't say those are familiar spirits.

You wouldn't say those are demons.

So

at least in one example, and let's say two examples, in Bible,

ghosts do appear.

So you could say, well, I just, I don't think that really happens today.

I don't think the things I was told.

But for the people who are curious about this stuff,

I mean, this was really a big plot point in Hamlet, in the first scene of Hamlet.

Is it really the father of Hamlet who comes back as a ghost, or is it a demon?

That's a big debate.

And actually, it hinges on religious debates at the time because of the University of Wittenberg, where Hamlet comes from.

Is it

if a demon's coming to trick you or Granny is coming to warn you of something, both could be spiritually dangerous, but they are different.

Right.

And you're the expert ghost hunter.

So you go in assuming it's always a demon.

Well, I don't do it anymore.

Obviously, you did.

Praise God.

But I would say, like, I still personally don't believe that would be Granny.

Like, what is she saying?

they should be

and we also see in the the story of the rich man in Lazarus.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, he's not able to come back.

There's a big, giant chasm.

He's like, please go warn my family.

So you had the prophets.

Exactly.

You're not allowed to.

And to me, that also says we can't come back.

We have our chance now, and we're not able to cross that great divide.

And the only one who did that was Jesus.

But

for me personally, no matter what it is, we're called not to talk to them and communicate with them.

Yeah.

So we do it anyway.

A lot of people.

do.

You did it actually.

A lot of people do.

Yeah.

Well, I thought it was okay.

I didn't know that God said not to do that.

He didn't know to, I didn't know that he said to save me from necromancy and divination and witchcraft and all the things that I was partaking in.

I thought at one point I called myself a Christian witch.

I thought I could have both.

Yeah.

Tell me you haven't read the Bible without telling me you haven't read the Bible.

You're talking about demonology.

Have you heard of the Annabelle doll?

I don't know anything about this.

I just know it somehow pertains to

it's like a demon-possessed doll or something.

What is it?

Yeah, so it's actually been it was made famous to the big world with through the conjuring movies, but it's actually a rag doll that was in possession by Ed and Lorraine Warren.

They're very famous for their demonology.

Not famous enough?

I never heard of them.

So what do they do?

They're into demons?

I think they actually worked on the Amityville horror case and the actual Annabelle conjuring case.

Are they pro-demon or anti-demon?

Pro-demon.

They're exorcists in type sense, but I actually met Lorraine Warren a few times.

So they're anti-demon, meaning they want to get the demonstration.

Okay, yeah, I guess I did.

Okay, yeah, okay, all right, that makes sense.

Okay, I was confused.

They believe they exist, but they don't like them.

They try to

pass on right now.

But they had an occult museum in Connecticut filled with relics and

very dark occult items, you know, literally things that have been found found in the woods with satanic rituals.

And I have been to the museum a couple times.

I met Lorraine a few times as well and saw Annabelle as well.

And the folklore behind this doll is that it's possessed by,

I don't remember exactly, I think a little girl who's demonic or just filled with demons or rage.

I don't remember exactly, but this rag doll has tried to kill people allegedly and has escaped.

Like Chucky, like it springs to life with a knife.

So, yeah, something.

I don't know.

It didn't happen.

Someone was watching it, and they woke up, and the arms were around their neck.

And so, this thing has to be kept in a lockbox.

And the folklore behind this doll is just insane.

And the power that people are giving this doll, really, the demon in operation behind this doll.

And

it just made headlines again because a comedian, Matt Reif, I've never watched his things, but I guess he just purchased the entire occult museum in Connecticut filled with these objects, including Annabelle doll.

And it's not the objects themselves that are haunted.

It's the demons that are in operation behind it.

So when people are looking at Annabelle and giving her power, like I did,

when I met her that night, I literally said, like, I tried to test her.

I'm like, well, she's not that scary.

And

my gas tank literally went from like full to like empty on the way home.

Okay, hold on.

Even the way you're taught, I met her.

I know.

Hold on.

What are you taught?

So do you buy it?

Do you think this doll was choking someone?

It could have been.

I don't mean to say like I met her.

It's like, I think that's the old way I would speak, but I met the doll and the demon that's in operation with this ragdoll.

And your gas tank dropped an old?

Out of nowhere.

It was very strange.

Like it was not like, oh, almost on E.

Oh, I lost gas.

It was not a crazy story.

It was literally like...

Out of nowhere, strange stuff started happening, got lost.

GPS, this is back in, I want to say 2011.

So, GPS really wasn't what it used to be.

It was like those ones that you attached.

So, it was leading us out of nowhere, in the middle of nowhere, in the woods, and how to find a police station to help us.

It was crazy after going to the museum, but

this comedian just purchased all these items, and it actually broke my heart knowing that just the

lore and excitement behind this doll right now.

He's in for a lot of bondage, and he's coming to agreement with a lot of these things because when you give power.

Wait, so he's he's into the new agey

stuff.

Apparently.

I mean, I feel like you wouldn't make that big of a purchase without having some kind of curiosity.

No, I'd barely buy a new Oxford shirt.

I'm such a cheap skate.

I don't think I'd buy a demon warehouse if you weren't into it.

Right.

And he's hoping to open it up for tours and overnight stays and stuff like that.

And it just breaks my heart because now that's just people are so into this and they're going to come into agreement with all these beings and open themselves up for demonization.

And I just...

You know, what's so strange about this, too,

there's a Christian tradition of relic veneration that goes back to, I mean, it's in the Bible, it's in the book of Acts with the handkerchiefs and St.

Paul, but it even, or in 2 Maccabees, though some people don't include that in the canon.

But from the earliest moments, from the apostolic age, you know, Polycarp dies.

Polycarp is buddies with St.

Ignatius of Antioch, who knew John the Evangelist.

Polycarp himself might have known John the Evangelist.

And when he dies, we have immediate accounts that the Christians would venerate his bones, his bones.

And this goes, you know, all throughout the Christian tradition of sometimes they'd get a little unsure of the relics.

So I think there are presently two heads of St.

Thomas Aquinas, who was a very smart guy, but he didn't have to.

And so there is a sense, you don't want to worship them like an idol, but there is a sense that there's a connection to the physical world and it's temples of the Holy Spirit.

And so they kind of point you toward the God who these holy men worshiped.

And so so there are plenty of relics.

A lot of them have

left churches in the modern age.

You think you could buy a warehouse.

Well, you actually can't buy relics, but you're not supposed to buy relics.

But you could come to a

reliquary of holy men.

Why would you buy the demonic one?

If there are two kinds of relics you can buy, why and you say, hey, here's a really good one and here's a really bad one.

Why do you say,

I want the bad one with the ragdoll that's going to strangle me in my sleep.

Yeah.

Well, because it's cool.

Because people are really into the horror and all this stuff.

People don't think that stuff is real.

They might just think like, oh, this is just awesome.

It's really

just like, it's dark.

It's cool.

It's just different.

You know, it's kind of like all those horror conventions I used to go to.

It's just, you think you're different, but you're not.

Yes.

Just part of the kind of all the same.

And it's, oh, it's outside of the normal stuff, but not realizing you're just taking part in something that's being normalized everyone thinks it's cool now everyone has a ghost story everyone likes to go on these tours and we're spiritual beings and so we're going to have our curiosity picked and people want to believe in something outside of the natural and i'm sure it's a great investment too wanting to turn it into something that people can come and you own something.

It's a very popular doll made famous by horror movies now.

And unfortunately, there's so much ramifications that are going to come with that.

Yeah, I don't know.

I'd probably just buy an index fund.

You know, if I'm trying, I get that the ROI might be marginally higher on the Demon Dahl Museum.

Yeah.

But I don't know, man.

I don't like ESG, but like Vanguard and State Street are probably safer investments, even with all their problems.

I don't know.

I know nothing.

But yeah, I 100% agree.

And I just, I, I actually tried to make a video recently and social media would not let me upload it for some reason, trying to talk to Matt Reif saying, please, anybody that has these objects, please burn them, get rid of them,

and turn to Jesus.

I'm just like urging him.

I just, I hope he would just wake up and understand that the spiritual weight of this is not going to be something that anybody can carry.

And I hope he just repents and turns to Jesus.

So you're a Christian witch.

You're now doing film work on ghosts.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you're getting this footage that you say, maybe some of them are more dubious, but you say, like the class A top tier audio recordings, I am hearing ghosts.

So

what are you doing with that knowledge?

Why is that spiritually dangerous?

Why is that spiritually dangerous?

Now looking back is because one, God calls us to stay away from it.

And when you're operating in divination or witchcraft, you're seeking knowledge or power outside of God's knowledge and power.

You're in a spirit of rebellion.

You're rebelling against God's word.

I have to believe that God tells me to stay away from something for a good reason, that he has a good will for me and he has a good design for everything.

And then when I step outside of that, it leads to death.

It does.

It really does lead to spiritual death.

It leads to bondage.

It leads to chains.

It leads to just demonic oppression.

And

what I do with that knowledge now is right now I want to just share my story.

But back then, I really wanted to kind of show the world that there is a light, there is life beyond the physical realm.

There's something else out there.

Maybe we don't know what it is, but let's, maybe there's something that can bring us together or open us up spiritually.

I just kind of wanted this enlightenment and

healing above all else as well.

Yeah.

This to me is the good that can come out of the bad thing.

Or, you know, to use the example of the Witch of Endor, you know, this very bad thing that happens, but God turns all things to good.

Is even, it's not a recommendation of practicing necromancy, but there are people who are hardcore atheist materialists who say none of this is real.

And then they're convinced, not that God exists, but that a demon exists, or alternately that a ghost exists.

But if ghosts exist, that means that something non-physical exists.

And if demons exist, That probably means that God exists too.

And there's this kind of bizarre back door where people are interested in the occult and the paranormal, and often it leads them to perdition, but sometimes it can lead them back to the right path.

So you say this is terrible and you had all this demonic oppression and everything, but how so?

You're at the insane asylum, you're getting the audio recordings, it's quirky, it's weird, it's interesting, you feel very special, you feel you have this gift, this feminine, witchy touch to mollify the demons.

And okay, then what?

How does it go south?

It doesn't seem that bad at that point.

It doesn't seem that bad.

I just want to say about that atheist kind of opening their mind.

That was my husband.

He was a full-blown atheist.

Nothing happens, no spiritual realm.

Meeting me and having me like witness what I went through, he's like, well, she's not lying.

She's not a liar.

It kind of opened himself up to the spiritual world as well.

And now we're both safe.

Hallelujah.

But how does that,

what was I struggling with?

Yeah, so, okay,

we get to the point where you're recording these, you know, smacks and screams in the insane asylum.

But at that point, I don't know if it just remained at that point.

Is that, that,

is there really any impetus for you to give it up?

Right.

Definitely.

Because

the longer I stayed in, the longer I was involved with these things, the darker experiences I had.

So it was really fun in the beginning.

And I was doing this for over a decade.

So it was really fun in the beginning, just kind of, wow, I can't believe I'm capturing this evidence.

I'm making contact.

I can't believe I'm growing in my psychic abilities.

I'm able to travel the country, see different places.

This is amazing and make friends.

And wow, I'm on a TV show.

Wow, this is crazy.

But it slowly got more dark and dark and dark.

And

because I was opening myself up

in different ways with these investigations, where I would do

different spells and rituals to open up the investigation, I would light candles.

I would do...

what we call a pendulum session.

So in witchcraft, there's these, it's kind of like a ball and chain type thing.

It's a pendulum on the bottom of a chain and kind of like a Ouija board mat with letters and numbers and yes or no on there.

And you would ask questions like, all right, we're here.

Please talk to me.

Are you ready to talk with us?

And it would literally point to different things.

And I wouldn't, there's no way I could really manipulate it without it really shaking.

And this thing would point to yes, point to no, spell out names.

And we would start investigations that way.

And I...

This is, it's not just that, you know, your hand shook or something.

And you're saying you're seeing the ball on the chain defy gravity.

Yeah, it would stay tight and then it would just go like that.

Yeah, these things that it's like literally in my hand, I know I'm being stable and it's operating outside of my own control.

And I would tell

these spirits, these beings, I would say, okay, you can use my body.

You can use my energy, talk through me, use whatever you need to pull from me to manifest yourself.

Looking back, that's literally insane and so so dangerous.

But I was literally inviting these things into my life, my spirit, my soul, just to, I was coming into agreement with it all and I was asking them to manifest themselves and they would.

And I was.

So you'd start, or it would sound like you were speaking?

Sometimes they would speak through me.

That happened once.

I channeled somebody.

I don't know who.

I don't really remember.

It's a little, it's about 13 years ago at this point.

And I try to forget some of these things, but I remember speaking through, and I didn't didn't have control over my voice and I remember looking at the people that I was with and I'm like I was just saying things and I don't know what I was saying and they were they had to like get me out of the house to stab me out of it because my body started to lock up I started to not be able to like feel things it was it was weird I was kind of in my body but I wasn't I didn't have control over my motor skills or what I was speaking or seeing It was really horrifying and very scary.

And the worst experience, I think, was when I was filming for my show.

I ended up, through my paranormal journey, I became a co-host for my own paranormal show, helping people overcome great fear with their crazy demonic activity that they have in their homes.

We were in a house down in Georgia, which was experiencing a lot of dark activity.

The guy was involved in, I think, masonry, some kind of occult or secret society.

Freemasonry, though.

Yeah, I think so.

Or it might have been a different one.

I'm not too sure.

But he also was, his grandmother was a,

practiced black magic.

She put hexes on people, a lot of witchcraft.

And every time I stepped on this property, I got weird.

Like, I just, I was dizzy and I was not myself.

I became paranoid.

I thought, oh, my goodness, we had a guest sidekick come on.

And I was like, they're auditioning someone else to take my place.

And it's just really, it wasn't me.

And I just was thinking these crazy thoughts.

I'm like, no one likes me.

And I don't know what it was.

Well, I know now what it was, but we were in the back woods back woods of georgia at nighttime we're filming and i look behind my co-house and we're in the woods and i see between him

what i can only describe as like a goblin face seething and just staring at me for like a split second it just appeared almost as if it wanted to get me and i jump back and that that image is really seared into my mind forever.

And this thing just wouldn't leave me alone.

It started changing forms and became this giant tar being.

It sounds crazy talking about it now, but

it changed and multiplied into these eight to ten foot tar beings that would then follow me around my house.

And

as I'm walking around and trying to sleep, I would see these beings.

You'd see them, not just sort of feel their presence.

You'd see them.

Yeah.

And it was kind of, I would see it both sometimes with my own eyes and sometimes what they would call like in your mind's eye.

Back then I would say your third eye, but I don't know how to describe it.

It was very like in between the physical and spiritual realm.

I'd be able to see them and they'd be hovering over my things and grinning at me and really very taunting me and almost kind of like, I got you.

I'm watching you and just wait.

And they would communicate with me almost

telepathically in a sense, where I just can see.

Yeah, they can do whatever they want.

And these things just wouldn't let up and it just kept getting worse and worse right up until I got saved which was about five years ago so you you say you developed your psychic abilities or you had to how how so what's a what's

psychic 305 compared to psychic 101 yeah so I would actually I had books psychic for beginners like how to enhance your psychic abilities and

in that kind of witchcraft world there's different stones you can have to enhance those abilities.

I believe amethyst was one of them.

And I had just actually got an amethyst ring from my, I think it was my 21st birthday.

And right after that is when I got into ghost hunting.

So I was like, the amethyst, it helped me awaken this, this ability.

And in the books that I was reading, it was talking about just practicing going with your intuition, going with like the first thought that pops up and trying, like just focusing your energy on something, your concentration, your intellect, your energy, and just the desire itself of wanting to enhance these abilities is going to enhance them.

Yeah, it was some wild stuff I would read.

And the more...

I guess that makes sense, though.

Because, you know, it's like

when a woman runs up to Christ in the Gospels and touches the hem of his garment.

This is very important because it shows you that there is a physical aspect to faith.

But it is her faith that

is really taking precedence over the...

The physicality matters.

In the book of Acts,

when

people are touching handkerchiefs to St.

Paul and sending it out to...

There is a physical aspect, obviously, because it's an incarnational and sacramental faith.

But

it's not like a magic handkerchief.

Right.

It's not the object itself.

It's the faith of the person that you're chasing after it.

Like, I literally have the woman touching the hem of the garment.

in my head.

I'm blessed enough to be able to lead worship at my church.

And even on my worst days, I'm like, man, this is going to be really hard.

But if I can just get there and just get up on there and just touch the hem of his garment, I know it's going to be okay.

And I've had so many of those moments where

just having the faith has helped me overcome.

But it was also in the, when I was in the darkness as well, just having the faith that, oh, I am going to grow into these psychic abilities.

And I believe it's going to.

I think your belief is very important, whether it's

wherever it's placed.

And Henry Ford talks about whether you think you can, you can't, you're right.

And I used to really believe that as well.

And I'm like, okay, no, I am a psychic.

I can do this.

I can do this.

And

I got what I wanted.

So did you, at any point,

I know you're kind of down the rabbit hole at this point.

You're doing the weird pendulum thing and

you're pretty in it.

But when the giant tarp beings are following you around, did you ever think, huh,

this isn't great.

You know, maybe I should get out of this.

Well, I definitely didn't think it was great, but at that time,

I thought there was good beings and dark beings, that there was

maybe I would call them angels, but beings of light.

And I would call them demons at the time.

I was actually very into demonology, flirted with Satanism at one point.

Oh, yeah.

At one point, I found myself agreeing with Aleister Crowley and his teachings.

I'm like, that's kind of weird.

Maybe I should be.

Aleister Crowley is one of the founders of modern Satanism.

Yeah.

Isn't he the one who said that the first and only commandment is do what thou wilt?

Yeah, literally, literally what Satan say, what he does say.

That's also the chief claim of liberalism.

Yeah.

Political liberalism.

It's do whatever you want.

It doesn't hurt anybody.

It doesn't matter.

It's a lot of your choice.

Yep.

And I was one of those people.

I was a full-on

liberal, feminist, vegan, witch, all these things,

doing whatever because I didn't care.

I didn't think that anything mattered.

And it's funny when you don't think anything mattered, but I wanted to make contact with something beyond this physical realm.

But I just, I was like, okay, I'm just going to do whatever drugs I want.

I'm just going to drink.

I'm going to sleep around.

I'm going to do whatever I want because it feels good.

And life is about feeling good and being happy and all these things until it doesn't, until you have to wake up one morning and really face the fact that this isn't making me happy.

It's actually causing a lot of damage to myself.

Even if I have stable relationships around me, I'm not stable.

I'm hurting.

I'm in pain and these crystals aren't working anymore.

The saging, you know, lighting sage and thinking that's going to get these tar beans away, that's not working.

The hypnotisms, the law of attraction, the vision boards, the manifestations, all of these things that were working for a little while, they stopped working.

They were working in what sense?

So I totally thought I manifested myself that travel channel show.

Yeah, because I was visualizing it and I was going through kind of interviews at that point.

They're not so much auditions because it wasn't fiction, but

I was like, wow, I manifested this.

I saw myself doing this, and I manifested my husband.

I manifested this, and not realizing that I didn't do any of that.

So, and manifesting for people who are not millennial white women watching this,

it's like praying to God, except it's just praying to yourself, basically.

Yeah, you're praying to the universe.

So, you kind of, I think some people believe different things.

I have the personal belief that the universe, oh my goodness, it's so, it's hard to talk in this sense going back in this verbiage, but I used to think that the universe was, it had your back.

It wants to bless you.

It wants to give you whatever you want.

You just have to align yourself right now with the version of you that has those things.

You have to start thinking money thoughts.

You have to think, if it's to be rich, you have to think like a rich person.

You have to think like this person.

You have to visualize it it's exhausting it's works you got to write things down that you're already thankful for it you have to meditate five minutes a day you got to do all these things you got to do do do do do all these works and it was exhausting and i was doing all of that right up until the moment i got saved in the moment that i started following jesus it was like all that load that that weight that burden that i had to do all these things to raise my vibration, to access my higher self, to be the best version of me.

because that's all kind of Pelagian right with the Pelagian heresy the notion that you can save yourself that you do it through your own will and you don't necessarily need God's grace

you you say that the view is that the universe is going to bless you but then you you end up having to do all these things

and it doesn't exactly work whereas Christianity says it's not that there's no role for you to do stuff you have to cooperate with God's grace but but it's that

God's grace comes first God's grace really does does it all

so

You're you're trying to you think you've manifested the travel channel show many such cases I think in Hollywood.

You know Holly we call it Gomorrah by the sea around here

and so you

You've got everything you want you got a TV show.

That's pretty cool.

Mm-hmm.

But you're miserable Miserable because I was experiencing so much dark activity.

You know these things would be with me in my hotel room messing with me and literally I'd be pushed and scratched and pinched and just really taunted and tormented and I was just riddled with fear all the time and my health was struggling on and off and I was just

not your mental health or your physical health and I was struggling with anxiety.

I had crazy anxiety.

At one point in my journey I was severely depressed and suicidal.

That was

that led me deeper into the witchcraft part of it and all that paranormal nonsense.

But

I was just, I was really hurting and I thought that crystals and the law of attraction, that was like, okay, maybe it's not the deep witchcraft, maybe it's this, this good, the good magic, the light magic.

I thought there was a difference between maybe the darkness and the light that I have to just chase after the light.

So you were seeing the weird tar beings and the ghoulish, goblin-y faces.

Do you ever see anything now?

Do you see anything in the same way that you would have seen something then?

Or no?

As that mist evaporated?

It really

stopped in that sense after I came to the Lord, but I can

sometimes I can see

darkness on people.

I've seen that tar-ness in people.

Before I got saved, I was dealing with someone who was under the influence of alcohol and kind of this big fit of rage.

And I looked into his eyes, and I could see that same tar in his eyes, and I could just see it kind of wrapped in his body.

you mean physically, like you'd see tar like going down his, or what's that like?

Kind of like, it was almost like this flash and image in my head.

I'm like, oh, that's what he's struggling with.

It's very dark.

He has darkness in him and I can see it in his eyes.

I can still see things like that.

I can't just straight up see demons like I used to or

being.

So I think Satan also, yeah, it's very good.

He gives you kind of the perverted gifts of the spirit where he allows you to, I don't know, see different things and beings.

And

now I have, I feel like, what's proper with gift of discernment or being able to see in the spiritual realm sometimes.

I can see what people are struggling with sometimes.

The Lord allows me to just have a quick image in my head sometimes.

Yeah, those gifts are quite different, I suppose, in that.

You might not be able to see like squinty goblins, but you might be given patience or something.

You know, I'll take patience over goblin vision at the end of the week.

Yeah, yeah, because that stuff really, I talk about it a lot with coming out of it.

There's a lot of PTSD that came with coming out of paranormal in the new age because of all the stuff that I saw, I didn't know how to handle it.

And I didn't know,

it just kind of like it shakes you because I'm like, how can I, first of all, I could never go to a therapist and talk to them about the goblins that I saw or the demons, these tar beings, they would look at me like I'm crazy.

So I'm like, they're not going to understand.

Like, I need a, I need spiritual people, and not everybody at church understands these things.

Did you ever wonder if you just had a screw loose and you needed some ProZac or something?

That would probably hit me.

I'm like, am I really seeing these things?

I'm like, but I got people confirming things with equipment and all these different things.

I'm like, okay, but I just,

it was wild and I just, it was, it was really scary.

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At this point, do you still think you're talking to ghosts, meaning, you know, General Lee at the battlefield?

Or at this point, are you more aware that you're speaking to demons?

I think in my beginning of my paranormal journey, I thought there was just people that have lived and died, not ghosts or demons.

That was the beginning.

And then as I progress, I knew there could be, at that point, I thought there could be so much more that we could be speaking with, it could be an alien it could be an angelic being from a different dimension

possibly a

what we would call cryptozoology is talking to Bigfoot or some type of different dimensional beings that I would think

demons people that I've lived on and just spiritual entities even elemental energy where animals all the other that type of stuff as well.

So I thought you could really communicate with so many different things, even living people as well.

You know, the funniest part is people make fun of Christians because we pray to God and to a man who is God, Christ, and to, depending on your

background and your denomination or, you know,

Christian tradition, you could venerate saints or the Blessed Mother or something like that.

And they make fun of us for all this.

Or you could, ancient Christian practice of venerating relics.

People say that's so crazy.

It's the craziest thing.

Yeah, well, we ain't praying praying a Bigfoot, you know?

We ain't praying like a big crypto zoo dog alien or something.

But all the really fancy modern libs, they're doing that stuff and they call us nuts.

Well, I literally was that person.

I was that person.

So it's so crazy to speak on this from the other side where

I thought Christianity was just this box of rules just to keep us down.

It's a man-made religion and it wants to cut us off from our tapping into our own godlike abilities and we have to tap into that ourselves and

I was like look at look at mass they're literally doing witchcraft on the altar I'm like at mass at holy mass I would think that yeah as a witch I'm like yep see they have their chalice and all these things they have their magic and we well you know even that phrase invert it yes yes no even you know the black mass is a is a mockery of the old mass

and and even this phrase hocus pocus I believe the etymology of that is that it's a mockery of hocus ta enum corpus meus.

This is my body, which is the holy words of the

consecration.

I think hocus pocus is a mockery of that.

A lot of things, they love to mock.

They love to mock, and that's why the only thing they listen to and obey is the name of Jesus.

They literally, it stifles them.

And as we know in the spiritual realm, they're very legalistic.

And so the moment that you use that authority of Jesus, they

shut up.

They're not authorized.

And they are.

I mean, they're under,

ultimately, they're under the authority of the sovereign lawgiver.

And, you know, I mean, they're not greater than God.

That's not going to work for them.

So I guess that's my question then.

You're in all this craziness and you're praying to Bigfoot and doing all this weird stuff.

And do you ever, does your early Christian life ever return to you and say, huh, I've tried every single thing I can possibly do from the sage to the pendula to the whatever.

Shall I perhaps pray to God?

Might that do something for me?

Never even.

I shouldn't laugh at it.

No, no, but like when you really look back it never even crossed my mind because I just thought that's that's just man-made religion it's a set of rules and there's no guy in the sky but let me just pray to the sky

yeah I don't um

it all

seemed so normal at the time it did it sent it felt very um

how do I put it like just mystical and wild and it felt felt really ancient.

I remember visiting Ireland where my family's from and I really wanted to go to a summer festival, and I forget which one it was, but I was like, I really want to get in touch with my pagan roots.

And like, I want to reject all that and get in touch with that.

And it just, I think we are spiritual beings.

Obviously, God made us that way, and we're constantly craving spiritual experiences because we're meant to communicate spiritually with our Creator.

That's how he made us.

We're going to be searching everywhere we can because we're very distracted, curious beings.

He made us very curious with free will.

It just depends on what you do with that free will, whether that's going to lead you down darkness and destruction, or it's going to lead you to life and freedom with Jesus.

It's funny that people have this sense, you're not the only one I've heard express it, who say, oh, I want to get back to the true old religion.

There's a fascination in the West, especially in the 60s and 70s, with Eastern religion.

You know, there's a phrase in the Northeast, the Jubu, which is some lady who's like probably reform, secular Jew, who doesn't take that religion seriously at all, but she's really into like yoga or whatever so that it's the Jew the boot the Buddhist the Jubu and but it's there's all sorts of people like this and you think okay I want to get back to my druidic Irish pagan roots and then does it ever occur to you you know

they all converted right because Saint Patrick worked miracles in front of them right no true religion God loved my father he He's

born-again Christian, and he was praying for me that whole time.

We try to have conversations, and I was living

during all this.

I was also living with my grandparents at the time as well.

And just, this is after my parents' divorce, that also caused a lot of hurt.

So, I was seeking just a lot of trauma.

People that go through trauma, we're trying to heal, we're seeking just anything we can to feel good, whether it's drugs, alcohol, crystals, talking to ghosts.

But my dad never stopped praying for me and trying to talk to me, but it just fell on deaf ears.

I just, I didn't want to hear it.

And it wasn't wasn't until like right, obviously right before I got saved, it was the lockdowns and COVID and

just everything that was going on in 2020.

I was experiencing extreme anxiety.

And

everything that I was listening to, like the liberal media, all these different things, all the protests happening, like I can't get behind.

this stuff.

I just, I don't agree.

I'm like, but I don't believe in Jesus.

I like, okay, let me just try to sage myself.

Let me just try to visualize this.

And well, I know I didn't manifest having to cancel my wedding this October.

Like, I didn't manifest any of this stuff.

I had all these hopes and dreams and everything stopped working.

And I felt the Lord calling me.

I was just like,

what is this that I feel?

I just felt led to watch an Easter service.

I had flirted with going to church.

throughout my time in the paranormal.

Just over the course of maybe like five, six years, I was back and forth going to church, church but I always felt really filthy and unworthy because I didn't understand grace and forgiveness and that if I just repented and asked him forgive my sins I would have been washed clean but

the the enemy really lied to me it's like you're not you don't belong here you're too disgusting if they only knew all the partying you did and what you were doing so I would I fell away very quickly but this is the thing even I've I've gone to confession a hundred billion times and

even still when I'm in the confession line, when I'm driving up and I go into the confession line, I feel the sense of I can't, can I really be forgiven for this?

And it's this trick that the devil plays, which is he tells right before you sin, he tells you it's no big deal.

It's really not, it's barely even a sin.

Don't worry about it, it's no big deal.

And then the second you do it, he says, you'll never be forgiven.

This is so horrible.

You can never, and the closer you get to confessing your sins, to God, please can you say, egote absolvo, you know, I absolve you of your sins, real spiritual authority given by christ the closer you get to that you it's you can feel like you're you're being pulled away from it no you know is that's the it's the last gasp of it yeah and i felt that right up into the moment of getting saved where you know content i started watching was turned more conservative i'm like okay Everyone's talking about Jesus.

What is up with this Jesus guy?

Maybe I should look into this.

And so I started talking to my dad and my stepmother.

And, you know, they've done mission work.

And my husband and I would literally just have four-hour-long conversations, just, okay, why Jesus?

Why only Jesus?

Why can't I also have like an altar?

Why can't I do tarot cars?

And I love my spiritual stuff.

I love my crystals and wands and all these things.

Like, and they were just so gracious.

They spoke the truth, truth, and love.

They were bold about it.

They were loving about it.

And

they were just, they've ministered to us and just really told us the truth.

And so I don't even know the exact date, but the moment I realized my sin, I understood that everything I had been doing for so long

was just,

it was sin.

It was an abomination that God detested it.

And it wasn't that I felt

that he hated me or anything.

It was just, oh my goodness, I can't believe I was doing this.

And just the weight of all that came on me.

And I'm like, Lord, save me.

I'm sorry.

I repent for all of this.

I want to follow you now.

And it was all that burden.

It lifted off of me.

And

he just brought me to such freedom.

And I throw all of those things, all of the occult items, the paranormal equipment, the crystals, the wands, the cauldron, the herbs, the tarot cards, everything, every self-help book and crazy alien stuff.

I threw it all away.

Just that they didn't act the Acts Church.

They got rid of all their occult items and whatnot.

And I just said, Lord, you have my life now.

Three things hit me about that.

One, this is a girl who's burning sage to get the eight-foot-tall tar beings away from her, and you thought that was normal,

but Dr.

Fauci was a bridge too far.

That shows you how crazy the public response during COVID was.

It was so nuts that even when you are praying to the Yeti, you say, hold on, these guys are really wacky.

Okay, so that's the first thing.

The second thing,

you're recognizing what St.

Paul is writing in Romans, which is that the law comes not really to save you, say you can't really save you, but it does show you your sin.

It's not that the law is false, it's not that, yeah, but it just reflects your sin as you see that, and then you see your need for a savior.

And

then all these little doodads,

all the cauldrons and the whatever, and all you

say, okay, it's all bunk.

You just toss all of it away.

Overnight?

Pretty much, I think, within two weeks.

I didn't realize I'm like, I wasn't using them anymore.

But I literally, I think I cried for about two weeks, just, oh my gosh, Lord, I love you so much.

Thank you.

I'm so sorry.

I just, just being in his presence and understanding everything that I had done.

It was just really, I cried for two weeks.

And then once I understood, I'm like, okay, this isn't my life anymore.

I don't identify with these things anymore.

They are not, I don't want to give the enemy a foothold in my life, any open door in my life to come in.

And I'm out of agreement with these things, so I get rid of them.

I don't want to have anything to do with the evil works of Darkness.

Now, speaking of this open door, I want to talk about something you mentioned just a little bit earlier, but it ties in exactly to this.

Yep.

You mentioned Freemasonry.

Now, Freemasonry has played a big role in not just American politics since the founding, but all over the continent.

It's been a big part of modernity, and the Freemasons will say that it goes all the way back to Solomon's Temple, but you know, there are a lot of stories about these clubs.

In America, I'm buddies with some Masons.

They're very nice guys, and they just think of it as a social club.

In America, more so than in continental Europe, it is kind of a social club.

And yet,

at least for me, you know, I'm a mackerel-snapping papist, the Catholic Church says you cannot be a Freemason.

In fact, you would automatically be excommunicated.

It is that Freemasonry is incompatible with the Christian faith.

In a way that when I mention this to friends of mine who have been involved in Masonry, they say, that's crazy.

That's totally, I don't know, why is that?

So why is that?

Why were you seeing a Mason connection in some of these weird demon ghost houses?

I'm not an expert.

I don't want to claim to be, but from just from what I've gathered, you're making an oath in secret.

And when you're coming, I know the Bible talks about not, don't make oaths, especially in secret as well, because what is ever done in secret will come to light.

But my only oath is to Jesus and God.

And that's all I can really say on that.

But I know that

some people may follow the Bible or whatnot.

There might be other hidden deeds of darkness.

I am not at liberty to even go down that path.

I'm not an expert on that.

So I don't want to go down a field that I don't.

I'm not an expert.

That's never stopped me before.

You know,

you made me think of one of the explanations when you said, why Jesus?

Why only Jesus?

And this, I think, really, beyond all the conspiracies and the French Revolution and all the kind of thoughts about this,

this gets to the heart of it, which is that, as I understand it, I don't know anything about Freemasonry, but as I understand it, it posits a kind of naturalistic religion that says as long as you believe in an abstract supreme being, then you're good and you're all kind of on even footing and it has its own rituals.

I mean, you mentioned that the occult is kind of a mockery of the Christian sacraments.

So it has its own kind of initiation, its own kind of baptism.

It has its own funeral rites.

It has its own altars.

It has its own feast days.

That it is,

whatever else you want to say about it,

it fulfills a lot of the

criteria of religions.

Yes, without the exclusivity of Christ.

Right, right.

Yeah, I've seen some of these rituals and whatnot, and all I know is I'm like, that doesn't look like it comes from the Lord.

I'm like, read the

flag.

Have you seen them?

Just random YouTube things.

Not in person.

You didn't sneak in.

No, I've actually been, I try to think where this is, the Houghton Mansion up in Massachusetts, way out, way out west, like almost the very corner of it.

I was in a Masonic lodge, and we were able to go into the temple.

Were you ghost hunting there?

Ghost hunting.

Yeah.

So doing all the things, and we were able to go inside, and we didn't do a lot of, I don't think,

like readings or stuff in there, but I was able to just see inside of it and whatnot.

And they did have a Bible in the center here.

I'm going to like upset a bunch of Freemasons here, but I'm just like...

They're going to come assassinate.

I know.

Watch out.

No, but all I know is from what I have just

very nice guys.

No, I have family that is with me.

But plenty of nice guys fall into mistaken ideologies and religious views.

Nice doesn't get you to heaven.

Christ does.

I thought you just had to be a good person, but then what is good?

Who defines what is good?

That's kind of this problem we have in the world right now is the moral relativism where, well, I get to define what is good.

And you see this with pro-life arguments,

with everything out in the world right now, like whatever, I'm a a good person, but it's very arbitrary and everyone else gets to decide it.

And I thought we could all decide our own morals and what is good.

And so when we're left to our own standard, it's like it's going to vary and it's all going to fall short.

And that's why God and Jesus is

the only standard.

At any point, before you return to faith, At any point when you're seeing the tar beings and you're hearing the voices and you're depressed and you're suicidal even,

Do you talk to anyone about this?

Oh, yeah, definitely.

I mean, like my husband, my fiancé at the time, well, boyfriend, fiancé, husband now, talk to him about it all.

But he, like I said, he was coming out of atheism, so he didn't know what to make of all of it.

Believe it or not, the paranormal world is a very big community.

It's deep, and especially now with the programming you see on TV, there's entire channels that are dedicated to paranormal programming.

There's events, there's conventions, there's local ghost hunts, there's local ghost tours.

I'm sure like a lot of historic cities, especially where I'm from, Boston area, I hosted them myself during the Halloween season especially, which we would call the paranormal Christmas because it was a very big thing, a lot of events.

We would host things at haunted locations and bring people along.

It was a fun thing for people to do.

Yeah, I just,

it has such a foothold on people and people are just so curious about it.

Everyone has a ghost story.

Everyone has a ghost story.

Yeah.

But you think they're all just seeing demons.

I think they could largely be seeing demons.

I guess I just, I do think ghosts can be real in principle.

I kind of agree.

I think there's more in heaven and earth than is dreamt of in our philosophy, Horatio.

Not the Yetis or the ETs, but I do think that there's such, you know, it's just spirits.

What do you make of the

alien stuff?

I personally think that is a demonic demonic agenda.

I think they're coming as aliens.

And because I think that's the one thing that could unite humanity is a threat outside of what's on this planet.

And I think there's been different projects maybe talked about.

I think Project Bluebeam is something.

What's that?

I don't know.

I think that's a good idea.

I believe, I don't know.

I've heard it talk about where that could be a false flag having to do with aliens, probably drones or something.

But I think the End Times also talks about just a lot of I'm not an expert on the end times as well.

Who is?

I know.

I have a priest friend who says a sure sign of madness is when someone tells you he totally understands the book of the apocalypse.

Right.

That's a guaranteed sign of madness.

I'm just like, I just, I just love God and I'm following him and I'm like, no one's going to know until it happens.

And we can all have theories and whatnot.

But there's some things that you have to agree on and then there's other things that are just secondary and they're very interesting.

And I'm not a biblical scholar, but I just.

I agree.

I think the alien thing is a total total psyop, and I think it is usually a sign that someone is at least entertaining New Age mysticism and Gnosticism, or at the very least is not

too, not, not all that rigid about their theological views.

Yeah, I was very much into aliens at one point.

I thought I was a star seed.

So basically, it's the belief that you are a being from a different

planetary system.

There's different types that you're sent.

This is right before I got saved.

So I didn't believe this the whole time, but that's how far I had fallen before God was just like, nope, but.

So you're a

what is a star seed?

Do you think you're from another galaxy?

Yeah, it's the belief that you have come from this different name for the galaxies.

I thought I was a Pleiadian or something like that.

You struck me as like a quarter Pleiadian, a quarter Italian.

I get that a lot, actually, but I came from this other dimension to help humanity reach the next dimension.

I got into a lot of alien stuff right before I got saved.

Talk about like these blue avians, these different, these different types of aliens.

What's a blue avian?

Apparently, it's a type of alien that's really big and blue and kind of has a bird beak and they communicate with

people and tell them things telepathically.

I was following a lot of people in that realm and kind of, I don't know what you would call it, very new agey, very,

I don't really know the term for it, but they were into a lot of new age and talking about the earth going from a third dimension to the fifth dimension.

So we all have to collectively agree and meditate and raise the vibrations.

Yeah, those vibrations, man, they're not high enough.

One thing I notice about a number of people, also many of them are very nice.

I find that

we're speaking of our, you know, the Freemasons are very nice.

They're nice in kind of like a normal way.

And these guys are nice in a really weird way.

But they are, a lot of the New Agey guys, they're really kind of sweet a lot of the time.

But something that I find unites all of them, they all just coincidentally seem to be saving the world.

You ever notice that?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

It sells books, too.

I don't think I'm saving the world.

No.

I hope I'm cooperating with God's grace in a way that is in any way appropriate.

I hope I am.

And a lot of times I'm not.

But I'm not.

I'm sure I ain't saving the world.

Right.

Thank God we're not.

Because that's, there's a reason.

The world would not fare very well.

Yeah, same.

And there's a reason that the Lord says, like Jesus tells us to take on his yoke.

It's easy and his burden is light.

Yeah.

The burdens of this world, they're so heavy.

And I know that even just in my everyday life, if I'm not constantly giving up those burdens and laying them at his feet, I start to feel the weight and I crumble.

And

before I got saved, I felt the burden of having to save the world, whether it was through being vegan, being the best feminist I could be, being as whatever checkbox identity I could be,

but also having to save the world, getting into a lot of these ideologies that we have to band together and save the world and we got to overcome darkness.

You know, I've never put that together, but that,

even though I just articulated this idea unknowingly,

That is what unites the veganism, the climate change hysteria, the hardcore feminists.

the communists, they're all trying to liberate,

save humanity from the sun monster, or liberate women from the false consciousness, or liberate the proletariat from the shackles of their oppression, or liberate free, free, save, save.

It's all the same.

Even the New Age people trying to raise the vibrations on the ley lines or whatever.

It's all

about saving the world.

But then they also say nothing matters.

And they're also nihilists.

So I'm like, wait, so what are you, who are you trying to save the world for?

I have people that I know like, stop having kids.

The earth has too many kids, but we got to save the earth.

I'm like, for who then?

Yeah.

Who are you saving the earth for?

Yeah.

Nothing matters, but we have to save all these things.

Or the bluebird aliens.

That's what you got to save.

Exactly.

You mentioned self-help books.

You threw out your goblets and your cauldrons and your crystals and your sage and your self-help books.

Yeah.

Now, a lot of people are going to be listening.

They're going to say, well, I don't have any goblets.

Maybe I have like a Waterford crystal sniffer or something.

But I don't have any sage other than for the pork.

I don't have any,

but I do have a lot of self-help books.

What's wrong with that?

I think it depends.

Mine, we're very new agey, but I think self, you can't help yourself.

I couldn't help myself because the self,

I'm the problem.

I'm the problem.

How am I going to help myself?

To quote Miley Cyrus.

it's me.

I'm the problem.

It's me.

Is that Miley?

Is that even Taylor?

That was Miley.

Taylor.

Okay.

I don't listen to them.

But

yeah, I'm, I can't get myself out of this.

And

my help comes from the Lord.

My strength comes from the Lord.

And the best self-help book,

Bible.

Yeah, of course.

I've gotten, like, it's unbelievable.

It's because his word is alive.

It's breathing.

It's, it's,

I just love it so much.

He's just done so much for me.

and he's just revealed, it convicts me all the ways that like, I do need to change.

And like, yes, there is responsibility on my part.

I do work out my salvation.

I do, sanctification is a process and whatnot, but I can rest in him and know that he's going to lead me on the right path.

And it's more than any self-help book can ever do for me.

or that I could pay any self-help guru to go to their conferences to buy their next book because, oh, they have the next best answer oh this is the next best thing you have to do and it's just this like this treadmill of

just constantly buying books and going to seminars and all these things and you just get nowhere you get nowhere you're not you're just treading on a treadmill and you're not actually running the good race you ever noticed that the most miserable people you ever met in your whole life have the largest collection of self-help books you as well that was me yeah yeah but then people would say well yeah they're miserable that's why they're buying all the self-help books but i said well it's like the guy who goes to therapy for 40 years and only gets worse.

You say, maybe get a new therapist.

I don't know.

Yeah.

Maybe talk to someone else.

Maybe like nothing wrong with going to talk to somebody, but where's the change?

Even like you could be going to church for so long.

Yeah.

You're still the same person.

You're still not operating in kindness and love.

You're still living in the flesh.

You're not repentant.

You're not the same person Monday through Saturday as you are on Sunday.

So like it kind of doesn't matter who you are, whether you're in church or not.

It says, what's the fruit of your life?

Are you living with the fruits of the Spirit?

You'll be shown by your works, shown by your fruit of your life.

Of course, of course.

I mean, this is when I was mentioning confession earlier.

When you go in, a requirement of the sacrament is you have to be sincerely repentant.

And with the authority to loosen, to bind, you know, to forgive sins and to retain sins.

The priest can say, hey,

are you serious?

Are you actually going to, do you actually have a firm resolve not to commit that sin anymore?

Because if not, I can't forgive you.

I just can't do it.

It's not gonna do anything.

If you're not, as St.

Paul writes, if you're not discerning the body,

and actually the early Christian writers write this too, if you're not, then it's, if you're just kind of going through the motions, that's not going to work.

Like a toddler, I'm sure you can understand.

The father just like, I'm sorry.

They're just doing things just to do it.

Or like siblings, you just, you're saying sorry just to say you're sorry, but are you really sorry?

It's why God doesn't look at our works.

Our works are like filthy rags to him.

That's why you can't save yourself.

There's nothing you can do to get into heaven.

That's why for by grace we are saved.

And the moment that, like, nothing I could do to get me into heaven, it's the heart.

It's the faith.

And it's God looks at your heart and he sees that.

There's also, a parallel would be the perpetual sacrifice on the altar, you know, of Christ's perpetual sacrifice, which is, for modern people, is very difficult to grasp.

But

the sacrifice on the cross is eternal.

It's an eternal act.

And it's not like it just happened once.

And I mean,

Christ does conquer death once, but it's perpetual in the sense that while the matter of the sacrifice is the body, the form of the sacrifice is the will.

And Christ wills, his will is that sacrifice eternally.

And so, like, if you're not

discerning that, participating in that,

if you're just like walking through a door and maybe kneeling and maybe,

then

you're going to have a hard time.

And now

go down about 50,000 rungs to you know I am happy and you can too by Johnny and you know and you you read these stupid books and there I get I would disagree that only the Bible is a self-help book in the sense and maybe that's not the claim you're making but there there is a sense that there are derivative works from the Bible that are good there is like good Christian self-help this great Christian author that I've been helped like I have many books suddenly I don't want to C.S.

Lewis is a pretty good one.

There's a a great book, I think it's from the 16th century, called The Spiritual Combat by Dom Lorenzo Scupoli.

A marvelous, marvelous book.

I encountered it a few years ago.

Very practical

steps on spiritual combat.

Or

self-help based on the natural virtues.

So like Aristotle's ethics or something like that.

But that's not what modern self-help is, is it?

What's that stuff?

I personally, I see it as tapping into,

like think of someone like like Tony I was already into Tony Robbins at one point and I think there's some good aspects where some people need to get out of this like

self-destructive state but it has you looking at yourself almost like a God being where you're tapping into your your inner

I don't know how to describe like your inner lion your inner being that you can just become this great person and all these things and All I know is that it didn't help me.

Maybe it helped me for a little bit, but ultimately when things got dark or when I was experiencing hardships in my life, and it just, everything fell on me to fix.

So, all right, I fixed myself.

So when I started feeling bad again, I'm like, well, it must not have worked.

Maybe I just got to go deeper.

Well, maybe I got more work to do.

Oh man, I didn't do enough.

I got to do more.

Okay, maybe I have to.

People that have come out of the new age will know what I'm talking about.

Integrate my shadow self.

I need to get in touch with my shadow self now.

I've elevated this part of me, so now the shadow part, my

I'm just looking from the studio lights.

I don't know that I've integrated my shadow.

I still have a shadow.

What is the integration of the shadow self?

Well, like from a Christian point of view, that's our flesh.

That's our flesh.

But for in the new age, it's your dark side, I guess, your hurts, your pains.

I don't even know exactly.

Your vices?

I think your vices, all these things.

It's funny, like I would be able to talk about these things without ever fully knowing what they meant or where these ideas came from.

I would be following these gurus and I would be on the lives.

I'm like, they'd be talking about the 11 laws of the universe.

And I literally would ask, I'm like, where do these laws come from?

They would never answer me.

And I would actually get really annoyed and upset.

I'm like, I just, I like to know where things come from.

And I think that's ultimately what led me to Jesus because there's good evidence there.

You can tell where

everything is coming from.

And it's not just made up.

Yeah, I can tell you the history of the gravitational constant.

I can't tell you the history of the 11 magical laws of self-help or whatever.

Yeah, like the universal and manifestation and all these things.

And people wouldn't be able to tell me because they would come from these channel books that people would channel beings and they would get this information from spiritual demon beings.

Yeah.

And then they would just kind of...

Different people would kind of take those same concept and regurgitate it into their own self-help books and whatnot.

So that's the thing, like a lot of these self-help books, you don't know where some of these ideologies are coming from.

They could be pagan and demonic in nature.

And that's why I'm like, if it's not coming from good, sound teaching, you just got to be using discerning discernment at this point.

There's an observation, long-standing, it's not original, that one of the pities of people selling themselves is

how low the price is.

You know, the notion that you would mortgage your soul or attempt to sell your soul for like Oprah book club self-help gobbledygook is so pathetic that you would that you would give up true revealed religion and natural religion even for that matter for like some dumb

quartz rock or whatever is so and for you say no man you know it's like man saint augustine and saint thomas aquinas and like all the doctors of the church ever they're all a bunch of dumb idiots but let me tell you about the blue-beaked bird demon.

I got some news for you.

The alien, or not demon, alien, yeah.

Good grief.

Like, I used to think those rocks and stuff.

I'm like, well, God made the rocks.

So obviously they're good.

And I can use this one for love and healing.

And this one will protect me from demonic activity.

And this one will help me tap into my psychic powers.

And clearly God made these so I can use them for the things that he tells me to stay away from.

Yeah.

You know, look, I see actually why that's attractive.

Yeah.

Because God made me, too.

But, you know, sin and death pervade the world because of the fall.

So we don't blame him for that.

But I love, people do this with drugs sometimes.

They'll say, especially with pot, the old sin spinach, you know, the devil's lettuce, the Haitian oregano.

You might have heard of it.

Yes.

Yeah, Peruvian parsley.

And

they'll say, you know, whenever you make even a mild criticism of the old marijuana, they'll jump on you and they'll say, hey, man,

how could you say that?

You know, God made pot, man.

It's natural.

I'm like, a hemlock is natural.

You're going to drink that?

That's not a good idea.

Right.

Speaking of goblets.

Yeah, but you have to do so much to get to that point, don't you?

I'm like, I don't know.

I never grew it or anything.

Partook a few times, but

you never inhaled.

By accident, worst experience of my life.

I took a few puffs on the jazz cigarettes every now and again.

Never did much for me.

I don't like it.

I preferred alcohol at that point because I could control it better and I liked the feeling it gave me and whatnot.

It's a great way to wake up.

No, I'm joking.

Don't do it.

No, I.

No, but I like, you know, I don't really have a druggy personality.

That's of all my sins.

That's not one of them.

But booze,

you have a glass of wine or two, a cocktail or something.

It makes you more sociable.

It makes you a little more outgoing.

Whereas a lot of other drugs that the libs and the new age people are into,

it's just it makes you more introverted.

It makes you kind of quieter.

You're in your own experience.

Yeah.

And like I, I didn't do, didn't like pop, but I would like other different like party drugs and stuff like that.

And it would just wake me up and make me feel alive.

And I remember, man, I was just so lost and broken that I would go to church still buzzed and high from the night before.

I would wake up in another guy's bed and just super early in the morning on a Sunday, I'm like,

Where are you going?

I'm like, I got to go to church.

I was so broken.

That's better than not going to church.

Right.

And, but I just, I would be watching the music and I'm just like, still on this stuff.

And it just, it's opening you up to some, some really dark bondage.

You don't realize it.

But I, I loved that stuff at one point.

But then praise God, even before I got saved, he had me get out of all of that as well.

I have an unfortunate number of friends who have suggested illicit drug use as a way to be more spiritual and, you know, in touch with your real self and the universe and everything did you see that did you ever get into that the psychedelics did you see that did is there a connection

I never did psychedelics just the hard party drugs apparently

just the fun ones yeah just the fun ones but I was very tempted to get into ayahuasca I had some friends that did that and because I was it's like wait I get to go to Mexico and vomit for a weekend yeah but what's the catch see dark beings that bring me into the clouds and I don't know but um they it was really so I was part of the vegan community for a long time and I got into raw veganism as well which was kind of not eating any cooked food and I would go to different potlucks and vegan events and there's I was every type of vegan I was the angry protesting kind but then I was also the super like hippie crunchy girl like into all that fun stuff raising my vibration and a lot of people would be on psychedelics and that really was like I don't want to be that's like I won't hey man I won't even cook my my broccoli Rob because of the oils and the toxins hey you want my bathtub acid literally hey man let's

yeah literally that was me as a vegan at one point

I gotta like save the animals but I'm gonna

do cocaine so yeah

wow it is so it was just especially funny I need to triple filter my water and I can't ever have a hamburger but I'm gonna do this this

tab of drug that was concocted in like a trap house.

Yeah, yeah, here's some gasoline and whatever, God knows what.

But like you're totally doing great by eating this thing of lettuce, but the cognitive dissonance was very real with so many different things.

Like, oh, I can't pray to God, but I can pray to the stars.

And I can't have this burger, but I can have cocaine.

So explain that one.

I still haven't come up with an answer yet.

I've noticed that people who do a lot of cocaine often don't want to eat hamburgers.

Oh, really?

They do, because their appetite is suppressed.

Oh, thankfully, it was only a handful of times, but I enjoyed it.

And I thank God every day that all of that could have turned out so differently for me.

Yeah, yeah.

And

for some reason, by the grace of God, he just allowed it to not go any further than it did.

And I'm just so thankful for that.

Another commonality I've found with all the New Age-y people and the political liberals, I guess, just broadly, is

they all, in principle or in practice, get into really weird sex stuff.

Have you noticed that?

Yes.

Why?

What's that about?

Well, I feel like maybe in more of the liberal ways of thinking is anything goes.

Like, whatever, man, nothing matters.

And just do what makes you feel good.

It's kind of fleshy hedonism, carnality.

New age, I feel like the more enlightened people get, the more they just, they fall in love with people's souls or something like that.

And there's actually I got into it for a hot second there's sexual magic where you can use a beautiful thing that God gave us to be shared with your husband or wife

to use that special feeling to manifest and create your own reality where you visualize what you want when that feeling is happening and you envision it in a big light tunnel going up to the universe and you basically use your sexual energy to use to do magic magic and so I've actually heard this phrase before I don't know anything about it but I've heard this phrase sex magic okay that's what it is it's basically you just like think happy thoughts it could be other it could be a lot of other there's probably dark ways people do this and whatnot but that's what I learned and practiced at one point I know there's people that have done some really crazy stuff with I don't even want to go it's very graphic but there's yeah there's a lot of different things that I don't know of I don't want to know them.

I don't know how to do it.

But people, I think it's a special feeling.

There must be something with the energy that the enemy thinks can be powerful, or he just tries to mock us into using something very special that God gave us and to pervert it and use it for nefarious reasons.

Yeah, and it is somewhat easily perverted.

You know, I guess part of it is, yes,

liberalism says, you know, if it feels good, do it.

Yeah.

And the new age-y stuff, you could see how that would get into the real weird sex stuff, like transgenderism, because you say, well, your body has nothing to do with your true self or whatever.

So, okay, yeah, I get how that could take you there.

But also,

we're human beings and we're sexual creatures.

And, you know, the distinction between men and women is the essential distinction within human nature.

And so, sex, yeah, of course it matters.

You know, I always thought it was so crazy when the left would say,

on the one hand,

sexual assault is this national epidemic and Harvard Yard is this hotbed of mass rape.

And this was during all the kind of Title IX craziness.

And so they'd be talking about how there's this epidemic of just constant sexual violence and it was me too and all the rest.

And also sex doesn't matter at all.

And it's like a totally casual act.

It doesn't matter.

And you say, well, if sex doesn't matter, then why is sexual assault worse than regular assault?

Right.

Though they're big thing, I think, consent, obviously.

Consent.

Okay.

But I don't consent to be assaulted with a punch to the face.

Right.

Why is sex assault so much worse than someone shoving me?

We all agree it is.

It is, yeah, obviously it is terrible.

And I think their ideology, the ideology that I used to ascribe to is as long as maybe I didn't partake, but it was more so, as long as people are consenting and of age.

And they're not an animal.

Yeah.

And people were, it's like, whatever, whatever you want to do, go for it.

And that's this kind of,

if you read the word, you would know that that's outside of God's beautiful design.

And especially with what Satan wants to do, he wants to blur the lines of man and woman, of what marriage is, of what just what good and holy unions look like.

It's interesting, too, even that phrase, such a stupid phrase, sex magic, because the most truly magical aspect of sex is conception.

It's that you can...

make a person like this thing that you do that you very much want to do yeah when you do it you can make a human being.

It's crazy.

Which is wild.

But that's the part of it where they would all say, no, that's bad.

We got to kill that.

We got to avoid that.

Yeah.

Then you get into the, oh, it's so sad where I was vegan and pro-choice at one point.

Yeah, many such cases.

Yep, yep.

And it's just.

In fact, I would wager virtually all vegans support abortion.

Most.

I did meet some.

just blanket pro-life, which was beautiful.

And it convicted me at one point.

I actually became pro-life before I got got saved just based on science alone and just watching people debate.

I'm like, that makes so much sense.

Yeah, it's a baby.

It's like, how do I do it?

How can I not?

How can I not?

Yeah.

Yep.

People think I was just like, oh, just because you're Christian.

Like, no, actually, I started believing this way before God really showed me why I believe this way.

So.

You mentioned earlier you wanted to bring a feminine touch to ghost hunting because it was a male-dominated field.

And I guess I know some woo-woo new age guys who are into this stuff, but it's mostly ladies.

Very much.

It's a lot of chicks are into like the secret and all that stuff.

What is that dynamic like?

What's the...

Tell me about the men in all this weird, witchy, ghosty.

So in the ghost hunting world, it's a lot of.

I have a lot.

There's a lot of great people there.

So I don't want to like, I'm not making fun of anyone.

We love, listen, we love the Freemasons and Tony Robbins and the ghost hunters, but some of my best friends are ghost hunters.

There we go.

No, but there's a lot of kind people, but it was a lot of just

people at the time.

A lot of the men were designing equipment.

They were really focused on the scientific aspect of it.

So the electromagnetic field readers, we call them K2 meters, all the different beep beep boop boop type scientific stuff.

This sounds like Scientology where they read your theta and levels.

Oh, right.

Is this real?

Like, is it real?

Maybe that's real.

I mean, like, I would see something and then the scientific equipment would pick it up.

So the moment I was like, I just felt something touch my arm, then the electromagnetic field reader would give me a reading or go up and make noises and whatever the thing was designed to do.

So that was the thing that really kept me coming back is the evidence was there.

I was, the equipment was confirming what I was feeling.

And that's why I'm like, well, this has to, how can this not be real?

I'm seeing this.

I'm feeling it.

That's capturing it.

What else am I supposed to do?

But

you don't think it's a natural phenomenon.

I think some things were.

That's why we would

try to we would try to scan for where the plumbing equipment was.

Or if it went off, we'd try to recreate things.

And you were, I guess, trying to test the spirits in our own way.

I guess I mean, because a spiritual thing, by definition, is not a corporeal thing.

So like a traditional understanding of an angel or a demon is that they're pure intellect,

not body.

Animals, the lower beasts, are just body and instinct and appetite.

Angels are pure intellect and will, and we're this middle ground where we have the bodies.

We're bodies like animals, but we're intellect and will like angels.

And so we're in this really interesting middle ground.

And

so you'd say, well, look, a demon or a ghost, ghost comes from Geist, which is spirit,

that doesn't have a body.

But I guess upon further reflection, wouldn't you say, well,

an important reality of our faith is that there is in fact a connection between the spiritual and the physical.

This is essentially the definition of a sacrament, and it reaches its apotheosis in the incarnation, when God becomes man.

So obviously there's a connection.

I'm actually not surprised that you say some spirit turns up a few beep boops on a recording device.

Well, like we are literally made in his image, so we are triune just like him,

soul, flesh, spirit.

Spirit is communing with God and the flesh is like we're still going to battle that every day and there's a constant battle.

So we're kind of in touch with both the carnality of ourselves and the walking by the Spirit.

It's something I have to try to do every day.

It's very hard, but thank God for his grace and his mercy.

And

he helps us do that.

But

yeah, definitely thought that being a medium, you were kind of the in between for the physical and the spiritual realm that, oh, I'm the medium where they can communicate through me and connect the two.

Whatnot.

Now, now that you've come out of it, is there,

what's your Christian view of these things?

Meaning, you know, we,

are you like a C.S.

Lewis kind of mere Christianity?

You believe in the Nicene Creed?

I believe in God the Father Almighty Maker of heaven.

That's a common sort of non-denominational, well, we're a mere Christian.

C.S.

Lewis wrote a book about this.

And the Nicene Creed is this ancient Christian creed.

But there, you know, we recognize the communion of saints, the saints in heaven.

We recognize we're all part of the mystical body of Christ.

So there's this kind of connection there that we see references to the cloud of witnesses.

You know, we see in the book of the apocalypse, which you were talking about earlier, the saints are holding buckets of their prayers.

And we believe that there are choirs of angels, and we believe that we believe in the Archangel Gabriel and Michael.

And so

it's this very full world.

Previously, that world,

usually invisible to us, for you was populated by like Yetis and Tar monsters.

Now, is it that that world has been demystified, or is it now full of the real thing, you know, the angels and the saints and the choirs and the celestial bodies?

It's kind of the veil has been lifted, where it's that now I know the lens to view these things

and why God has told me to stay away from them, that there's a reason for it, that it's so dangerous.

Because we don't know what's out there.

There's a whole spiritual realm.

There's a war happening in the spirit on our behalf.

And we also wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against powers and principalities.

There's spirits.

The devil is prowling around like a lion waiting to devour us and look for weak links, people that with open doors, the legal system in the spirit realm is so prevalent that you just, they look for any crack, any open door, whether that's content you're watching and things you're speaking and coming to agreement with.

And

when you say content, are you talking about this big problem, especially for young men, which is porn?

Yeah.

But there's other content

for you.

There's other content, like even

are women watching these gossipy, catty shows?

Gossip is also detestable.

It's not just these major big things.

Like, are you gossiping?

Are you jealous?

Are you in envy?

Like, that's also a work of mind.

Or even, look, this is a little close to home home for me because I host a political show, except when I'm doing this one.

But generally, I do a daily political show.

And there is a real

incentive to detraction

toward what St.

Paul condemns as a railing and reviling spirit.

And you see it.

You see it on a lot of these shows, and people are just railing constantly, reviling, detracting.

And it's a temptation and it's a hazard in my line of work.

But it's very spiritually dangerous.

It is.

It is.

And there's a reason why God tells us to guard our gates, our eyes, our ears, our mouth, and to be very,

I think, like I said earlier,

to live with the fruit of the Spirit.

You know, I desire to have the fruit of the Spirit more than the gifts of the Spirit, where I want to be walking in love and joy and patience and kindness and self-control.

You know, like there's, there's moments that I haven't not had self-control.

I still don't have it with certain ways I react, but like the Lord is so gracious and to remind me, it's like, okay, maybe there's an obvious sin here with this person, but take the plank out of your own eye and work on your own self-control.

And

that's why the content we watch and all these things, there's, like I said, powers and principalities are at work and they're here to keep you from coming to the truth that Jesus is Lord.

He's here to save you.

And they want you operating outside of the will of God.

And they want you in bondage still.

So what's your message to the ghost hunters who are still going out there with the tape recorders or whatever they have now, probably an iPhone app,

or the young men and women who

want to talk to a ghost, want to do the Ouija thing, want to find a blue beak to alien to have fruit loops with.

What's your

message to them?

I understand the appeal, especially I haven't lost a parent, but I can understand wanting to possibly try to make contact with somebody.

I know a lot of people are hurting, and that's why they go to psychics, they go to mediums,

they go to these ghost hunts wanting to make just contact with other people they know, or they're just wanting to, they're curious.

I know there's just a curiosity.

We are born with that curiosity.

It goes all the way back to the garden.

But Satan has come to deceive us.

He's masquerading himself as a being of light.

So he's going to trick you, and he's going to come back as somebody that you know and love and, or even somebody that you don't know and love, just people that are out there.

And I would just urge people to have such high discernment in this hour, to stay away, take no part in the evil deeds of darkness.

You don't, you want to separate yourself from this stuff.

And curiosity opens a door.

And that's what led me down this thing.

I was curious.

And that curiosity.

because I didn't turn around and stop it right then and there.

It led me down this destructive path into ghost hunting.

And it only only left me demonized and in bondage and in chains.

And I would just urge people to please, please just stay away from it.

Don't watch the shows.

Stop going on these ghost hunts.

If you have the equipment, if you have these occult objects, get rid of them and repent and turn to Jesus.

It's not that curiosity is awful in itself, but it has to be ordered by morality and charity and ordered toward God.

The minute it just becomes this idle little game, then curiosity kills the cat.

Do you remember that old show,

the guy, John Edwards, not the presidential candidate, Jonathan Edwards, the guy who...

He's always a psychic.

Yeah.

The crowd of the colours.

He had the crowd.

He did the crowd work, and he told them that they were all talking to their dead spouse or whatever, and he preyed on these.

Look, maybe he was doing it sincerely, so I don't want to accuse him of something.

But regardless, what he was doing is preying on very

grieving, damaged people to get ratings on TV.

It was a dreadful, dreadful show.

But there was always a debate about it.

Was he doing a cold reading and he was just putting on a magic trick?

Or

was he doing something even darker?

I think it could be so many different answers, especially nowadays where people have,

producers could probably look up information or credit card and they have your name and stuff like that.

But back in the day, I think it could be so many different things where they're actually getting information.

They have parlor tricks like, oh, I'm getting someone with the name that starts with J.

Yeah, remember,

I'm getting a B.

My wife's name is Belinda.

Yes, Belinda said she misses you.

Wow, that's amazing, John.

Yeah, and I think people sometimes are very desperate to hear something and wanting to make contact.

I know people.

I know people that are desperate and they're still stuck in this and seeking to hear from people.

And it's because we're just, like I said, it's the curiosity, but it is what you do with that curiosity.

Is that going to lead to an action?

Are you going to start looking things up?

Are you going to start watching shows?

And that's to do with so many different things, not just the paranormal, but works of the flesh and whatnot.

But I would just urge people to have self-control, to stay away from this stuff,

take no part in the evil deeds of darkness, and just focus on Jesus.

That's a good point.

Because, yeah, especially

you go ghost hunting because people die and that makes you sad.

But there's only one way we know to overcome death.

There's only one example of it, and it's not on the travel channel.

No.

Yeah.

No.

That's good.

Thank you so much for coming on.

Where can people follow your work?

They can find me on Instagram right now and hopefully a YouTube channel as well at christina.costanza.

Costanza.

It's a good, strong Italian name.

Christina, thank you so much for coming on.

Thank you for having me.

See you next time.