Spike Lee and Denzel Washington on a Reunion Making “Highest 2 Lowest”

Speaker 1 The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported by Dell.

Speaker 2 It's time for Black Friday, Dell Technologies' biggest sale of the year. Enjoy huge savings on select PCs like the Dell 16 Plus featuring Intel Core ultra-processors.

Speaker 2 And with built-in advanced features, it's the PC that helps you do more faster. Plus, earn Dell rewards and enjoy many other benefits like free shipping, price match guarantee, and expert support.

Speaker 2 They also have huge deals on accessories that pair perfectly with your Dell PC and make perfect gifts for everyone on your list.

Speaker 1 Shop now at dell.com/slash deals.

Speaker 3 Think you know your breaking point? If you're a woman with weak bones due to osteoporosis after menopause, sadly, you may not.

Speaker 3 Women can lose up to 20% of their bone density within five to seven years after menopause, making bones weaker and more likely to break.

Speaker 3 And after the first fracture, we're five times more likely to break another bone within a year. It could happen from a simple slip slip or just bending to lift a bag of groceries.

Speaker 3 Don't wait for a breaking point. Visit bonebreakingpoint.com to learn about how osteoporosis medications can reduce the risk of fractures.

Speaker 4 Hi, it's Eva Longoria. And let's be real.
After 40, we should ask for more from our skincare. I swear by Revitalift Triple Power Moisturizer by L'Oreal Paris.

Speaker 4 With vitamin C, pro-retinol, and hyaluronic acid, it reduces my wrinkles, firms, and brightens. And it's not a procedure.
It's just a hard-working moisturizer.

Speaker 4 Revitalist Triple Power Moisturizer by L'Oreal Paris. Grab it today in fragrance-free or with SPF 30.
Available at your local target.

Speaker 4 This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker.

Speaker 5 Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick.

Speaker 5 Spike Lee and Denzel Washington first worked together in 1990. They were relatively early in their careers, and the movie was More Better Blues.

Speaker 5 Washington starred as a trumpet player, scrambling to make a living in jazz clubs, and Lee played his manager.

Speaker 6 Gee,

Speaker 6 you're doing a half-assed job, man. You okay to deal? You told me to get you the dog, and I did.
I got you the best turns possible at the time.

Speaker 6 You understand, if you do it on the back end, down the line. Well, this is down the line.
And I'm working on it. Well, you ain't working hard enough.
I think you're taking advantage of me.

Speaker 6 How can you say that? We grew up together. I'd rather chop off my left hand and take advantage of you.
You're my boy. Look, this is about more than friendship, G.

Speaker 6 I'm breaking my friggin' neck for you. Does it look like I'm rich? Somebody's been talking to you.

Speaker 5 Washington and Lee, actor and director, have collaborated with some frequency, Malcolm X and many other films.

Speaker 5 But Inside Man, the last film together was almost two decades ago, so Highest to Lowest is kind of a reunion.

Speaker 5 Washington plays a music mogul targeted in a kidnapping and ransom plot, and the film is inspired by Akira Kurosawa's film High and Low from 1963.

Speaker 5 Last week, I had a chance to talk with Spike Lee and Denzel Washington.

Speaker 5 Spike, we spoke a couple of years ago, and you were telling me that for She's Gotta Have It, you borrowed from Kurosawa's Rashamon, the way different perspectives complicate the narrative and so on.

Speaker 5 Why did you go to High and Low as kind of source material and inspiration for the new movie?

Speaker 1 Well, first of all, I got asked to do it by my brother right here, Denzel Washington. That's how this whole thing happened.

Speaker 1 It was a gift given me by Mr. Washington.
We had not worked, Alaska we worked before that was

Speaker 1 Insight Man, which was like

Speaker 1 how many years?

Speaker 1 19 years before.

Speaker 1 But here's the thing, though. I was amazed when I was told that number because

Speaker 1 time flies, and I just

Speaker 1 never thought, I did not know that been that long. I had hoped that I work with Denzel again because

Speaker 1 Insight Man was our most profitable.

Speaker 1 It is called show business. It is.
I've heard that. I've heard that.
And another thing I'd like to say is like, we'd have to, we'd learn how we work together.

Speaker 1 Really?

Speaker 1 No. It was like the next day, you know, we had that relationship.
And so I know I'm using the word blessing a lot, but I'm going to say it again. It was a blessing.

Speaker 5 I've read your long list of best films, and Curosawa is one of the directors that really stands out there for multiple films on it. And these are things that you've loved since being at NYU.

Speaker 5 Why High and Low? The story, essentially, a business story, amazingly about the shoe business in Curosawa.

Speaker 1 Well, we made an adjustment with that.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I saw that.

Speaker 1 Here's the thing, though. It's about

Speaker 1 this film to me is about morals

Speaker 1 and what someone will do and won't do.

Speaker 1 And I believe when this film opens

Speaker 1 August 15th, Friday, go see the movies, see it in the theater, don't see it in your house, August 15th, Friday.

Speaker 1 I know that they will put themselves in the place. Yeah, what would you do? The character that David King is.

Speaker 1 They will ask themselves: themselves, if you were in the situation, would you pay the ransom?

Speaker 1 Would you pay, how much would you pay? And I think the audience is going to put themselves in that situation.

Speaker 5 Denzel, have you ever said no to Spike Lee when he's tried to cast you?

Speaker 1 He never tried to cast me.

Speaker 1 Have you ever?

Speaker 1 We don't work for each other.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 how does it work?

Speaker 1 In this case, the script came to me first. I knew this was a story that Spike,

Speaker 1 I hoped that Spike

Speaker 1 would be interested in. So I called him up.
He said, send it to me. He read it.
He said, let's make it. And here we are.
Here we are. Quick as all that.
It was that simple.

Speaker 1 Benzo Washington is Benzo Washington. And there are certain figures in this industry that.
And we made almost a quarter of a billion dollars on the last picture we did together.

Speaker 1 So it was good business. You know, it's not rocket science.

Speaker 5 You're talking inside man.

Speaker 1 Yes. Exactly.
Exactly.

Speaker 5 Now, over time, there have been lots of, well, a fair number of directors and actors who have had long associations. In fact, Kurosawa had one with Toshiro Mofune, and De Niro has one with Scorsese,

Speaker 5 Hitchcock, and Jimmy Stewart. Tell me a little bit about...

Speaker 1 Denzel Mit and Alberchino. That's right.

Speaker 5 Tell me about working together for the first time. and how that relationship has evolved.

Speaker 1 I said Denzel's script and that was

Speaker 1 When I started acting, there were two or three actors that I followed. De Niro, Hoffman, Pacino.
The filmmakers that made those films never called me.

Speaker 1 I was never asked to be in any of their films.

Speaker 1 So when Spike called me, we developed a relationship and we made our own films.

Speaker 1 So when I was in a position

Speaker 1 to return a favor to Spike, that he started by calling me with Mo Better.

Speaker 1 I said, hey, I'm calling the guy who called me and who can tell a New York story as well as any of the other New York storytellers.

Speaker 5 Did you feel iced out by those directors?

Speaker 1 I don't care. I don't care.
Worked out all right.

Speaker 1 It did.

Speaker 5 But I hear something in your voice that's...

Speaker 1 You hear God in my voice. I fear God, not man.
I could care man. I could care less what man thinks about what I've done or about what I'm doing.

Speaker 1 So wherever I go

Speaker 1 from this day forward you remember that God is leading me not the industry not Apple not interviews not interviewers not Spike Lee not this world. I'm being led

Speaker 1 by the Almighty

Speaker 1 And that's what's important most important to me.

Speaker 5 What sense do you make of where God is leading you as an artist? Toward what end? To fulfill what

Speaker 1 goals?

Speaker 1 To lead more souls

Speaker 1 to our Heavenly Father. That's what I'm here for.

Speaker 5 As a human being and as an artist?

Speaker 1 As a human being and as a human being. The platform is film.
But that's not the purpose for me personally.

Speaker 5 How has collaborating changed as your careers have grown?

Speaker 1 I've become a better director working with Mr. Denzel Washington.
What he does, there's a scene in this film, a very

Speaker 1 scene where Jeffrey Wright is really begging, his character's on his knees, begging

Speaker 1 Denzel's character to pay

Speaker 1 this ransom, $17.5 million.

Speaker 1 and it's really a scene where

Speaker 1 it's heartbreaking.

Speaker 1 And at the end of the scene, Denzel picked up a grenade,

Speaker 1 which is a prop.

Speaker 1 That is not in the script. He grabbed this grenade, said, you know, sometimes I feel like blowing this motherfucker up.

Speaker 1 It's not about just what's on the script.

Speaker 1 It has to be deeper than that.

Speaker 1 Has to be deeper than that.

Speaker 5 How much do you discuss?

Speaker 1 Where did you see that grenade?

Speaker 1 When did you see the grenade? I don't even remember. I didn't even remember.

Speaker 5 You don't remember that moment, Denzel?

Speaker 1 I remember picking it up, yeah.

Speaker 5 How much do you discuss scenes ahead of time, and how much do you leave it to chance and improvisation?

Speaker 1 I mean, what we do is that we have a reading.

Speaker 1 But before that, we're auditioning.

Speaker 1 And so a lot of times we're audition actors, you know, we see there's something, you know, we don't have to fix this part in the script.

Speaker 1 Because up to that point, we haven't heard the lines

Speaker 1 read.

Speaker 1 There's 100%, I got to tell young filmmakers,

Speaker 1 reading the script is not the same as hearing the words that are written.

Speaker 1 It is day and night.

Speaker 1 And so over my career, I've had to do a lot of rewriting

Speaker 1 during auditions because what was written, and I'm talking about stuff that I wrote too.

Speaker 1 And so, when Denzel and I audition to people, you know, we'll both say, you know, we got to change that line. You know, it's the process.

Speaker 1 And then.

Speaker 5 Then Spike hired great actors.

Speaker 1 He hired.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I hired great actors because I know if we got,

Speaker 1 don't get mad, we got Jordan here,

Speaker 1 we're not going to have

Speaker 1 some okie dokes, rootie cooks, around him. We gotta have a pippin

Speaker 1 Forrest Brad, you know, you gotta have surround

Speaker 1 a team. There you go, a team.

Speaker 5 Somebody that knocked me out as an actor in this is ASAP Rocky. King David.

Speaker 7 Now I ain't this son. Sorry? I got your full attention now, huh? You finally listening to me.

Speaker 8 Yeah, I'm listening. Good.
You know you got the wrong boy, right?

Speaker 7 Yeah, so I've heard. And I also learned you can never trust the help.

Speaker 7 But luckily for me, it was never about the boy. It was always about you.

Speaker 8 Well, I'm fair enough, but if it's about me, then you can't expect me to pay $17 and a half million dollars for somebody else's son if it's about me.

Speaker 7 Well, then his blood is going to be on your hands then. How you want it?

Speaker 8 No, man, come on, nah.

Speaker 7 This ain't no fucking negotiation. It's a day of reckoning.
You're not God no more. I am.

Speaker 7 All right, listen.

Speaker 8 God give you everything you want, right? No, God gave you everything you need. So the question is, what do you need? How can I help you? I ain't saying I'm God, but I could help.

Speaker 5 And there's one scene where they're separated by a panel of glass.

Speaker 1 It's an amazing scene.

Speaker 5 And it's shot with the two characters in profile with this prism effect representing the glass between them.

Speaker 5 Spike, talk a little bit about that as a just as a piece of filmmaking and the technical side of it, and the imaginary side of it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we had to go to, that's from the original. I mean, that's one of the highlights of

Speaker 1 Turst Howell's film, High and Low.

Speaker 1 And i always shoot with two cameras i always shoot with two cameras and i never done this before so

Speaker 1 we have denizel and is a rocky as you said separated by glass and that they their profile and so

Speaker 1 what we did we had two dollies

Speaker 1 that were attached

Speaker 1 so they'll move at the same exact time. Or the two cap the dollies were attached? Yeah, they were attached.

Speaker 1 I've never done that before, and they were like they were on either side of what was supposed to be the glasses.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, they had two cameras on like the glasses right here, in the middle, okay, in the middle. I mean, you had the

Speaker 1 another scene before that, in the recording studio,

Speaker 1 which

Speaker 1 turned into a rap battle.

Speaker 1 Here's the thing: I'm gonna tell the teaser, don't tell the team

Speaker 1 again.

Speaker 1 My brother surprised me because it was not it wasn't the script.

Speaker 1 So we'll go on. Did You improvise the rap battle?

Speaker 1 Well, it wasn't, it was badly written,

Speaker 1 so D

Speaker 1 improvise, he kills, he comes out with

Speaker 1 not with nice elementic.

Speaker 1 That's the rap game.

Speaker 1 The crap game used to support ballads in this. And I gotta give credit to ASL Rocky because he was there right, he was ready, he was there right with it.

Speaker 1 So, even though it wasn't scripted, he was ready. And then finally, as a line says, what is this, a rap battle?

Speaker 1 I didn't know that was going to happen.

Speaker 1 Ace was rolling with it.

Speaker 1 And it lifted that scene, too. Which is why I call Spike

Speaker 1 trust.

Speaker 1 I trust Spike completely. I didn't even know the way he was shooting it.
I'm learning in the days it had to do because I wasn't there for that. He was handling that, and we were battling.

Speaker 1 And we have that over over five years, over five films, and whatever the amount of years it's been, that shorthand. And I completely 1,000% trust Spike.
And

Speaker 1 I do my part, and he does the rest. And I would like to say, you know, I trust

Speaker 1 my brother.

Speaker 1 Here's the thing, though, David.

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 1 we work together, it's not a lot of discussion.

Speaker 1 It's like it's something, this relationship we built up over how many years over

Speaker 1 five films. And you would say we could say that's that's Chris Cecil De Naro.
You know,

Speaker 1 that's the great City Lement. Marty's great too, but City Lamet and Al Pacino, and that's Francis with Rando and the Godfather and Apocrypha's Now.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 when you have that,

Speaker 1 it's like a great band.

Speaker 1 We're all playing the same parts, but it's not something that's discussed.

Speaker 1 It's a feeling.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 it takes over time.

Speaker 1 It's very rare you're going to have that from the jump.

Speaker 1 That's just...

Speaker 1 35-year overnight sensation.

Speaker 1 So. 36-year.

Speaker 1 It's hard to explain. I know people might think it's some type of magic or voodoo, whatever you want to call it, but

Speaker 1 it's being human beings.

Speaker 1 That's the best way I can explain that.

Speaker 1 I was going to say, and like those other relationships, Scorsese and the other filmmakers and actors that he talked about, those films were in the theater. So I would ask all

Speaker 1 of my followers

Speaker 1 and Spike Lee's followers to follow us to the theater on Friday. The movie opens Friday, August 15th.
Here's the thing, though. Again,

Speaker 1 I know it might be more convenient to sit home and live on your big,

Speaker 1 big-ass TV, but it's not the same experience as going to a theater.

Speaker 1 I remember going to the Zigfield.

Speaker 1 I love going to the Zigfield. When I saw, I mean,

Speaker 1 and it's a shame, it's a ballroom now. But when a big film came out, you went to the Zigfield and the theater is packed, and there's energy, and it's like there's nothing like it.

Speaker 5 No, it's amazing.

Speaker 1 I've been a great sport event, too. But

Speaker 1 the go-to-packed theater, I remember seeing

Speaker 1 Jaws

Speaker 1 ailing, close encounter. I mean, I mean, like,

Speaker 1 I waited two hours in the freezing cold to see the exes. Remember the Paramount Theater? It was being called the circle, we had to go down.

Speaker 1 I saw the exes there.

Speaker 1 Two hours must have been two degrees.

Speaker 1 People were screaming. You could hear people vomiting.

Speaker 1 You can't get that at home. So go to the theater Friday and vomit.

Speaker 1 Everybody Friday.

Speaker 1 Go to the local theater and throw up. No, don't throw it to somebody else.
Don't want to yourself.

Speaker 5 I'm speaking with Spike Lee and Denzel Washington.

Speaker 1 More in a moment.

Speaker 9 This is Iraq Glass, the host of This American Life. So much is changing so rapidly right now with President Trump in office.

Speaker 9 It feels good to pause for a moment sometimes and look around at what's what. Let's try and do that.

Speaker 9 We've been finding these incredible stories about right now that are funny and have feeling and you get to see people everywhere adapting and making sense of this new America that we find ourselves in.

Speaker 9 If you haven't listened in in a while, I honestly think these are some of the best stories we've ever done. This is American Life, every week, wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 5 Denzel, I spoke a while back to Judy Dench, and like you, she's spent a lot of time performing Shakespeare, and she told me something really surprising and interesting.

Speaker 5 She said that playing a role like M in the James Bond movies was as hard for her as being on stage in in a Shakespeare tragedy.

Speaker 1 What do you think? No, Shakespeare plays much harder.

Speaker 5 Tell me why.

Speaker 1 For the actor, well, because I am a pentameter to begin with.

Speaker 1 Her father loved me, often invited me, still questioned me the story of my life from year to year, the battles, sieges, fortunes that I have passed.

Speaker 1 I ran it through even from my boyish days at the very moment he bade me tell it, wherein I spake of most disastrous chances of moving accidents by flood and field, of hair breadscapes name in a deadly breach, of being taken by the insolent foe and sold to slavery.

Speaker 1 That's harder than yoke.

Speaker 1 But also, film, you stop and start. You don't have that on the stage.
But that's what Judy thought, that's what she thought, right? She did. Okay.
She did.

Speaker 5 Spike, I came back from the screening of this movie and I told a friend of mine who works here, who's a musician,

Speaker 5 that one of the great parts of the movie was the chase scene, and it's propelled by the Puerto Rican Day parade music of Eddie Palmieri.

Speaker 1 and the Salsa Orchestra.

Speaker 5 Oh, it was fantastic. And then as I was telling them this, Eddie Palmieri probably died that very same day because the next day I read his obituary.

Speaker 1 Huge loss, big loss for the culture, for the world, for the world.

Speaker 5 But that's something you've, for forever, you've think a lot about is the propulsion of these movies through music and

Speaker 1 driven by the music.

Speaker 5 Tell me about thinking about that and conceiving that for a movie to make it move.

Speaker 1 It's two words, three words. The French Connection.

Speaker 5 The chase scene.

Speaker 1 That scene is from the French Connection.

Speaker 1 When you say that, though, what do you mean?

Speaker 1 The style of it. Yeah, I mean, the whole, the whole, first of all,

Speaker 1 the big scene in High and Low is

Speaker 1 the scene where they have to dump the money.

Speaker 1 Because I really, I had to show

Speaker 1 that young

Speaker 1 devil was not just some dog, he's smart.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 you want PD, you know, they're going to catch your ass. So he's thinking, how am I going to

Speaker 1 orchestrate? Uh-oh, how can I orchestrate this drop of 17.5

Speaker 1 million in Swiss francs in a Michael Jordan jump man black backpack and not be caught.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 looks at the calendar.

Speaker 1 Oh,

Speaker 1 the hated Boston Red Side is going to be at Yankee Stadium.

Speaker 5 That was cold.

Speaker 1 That's the afternoon game. This is why I called him Spike.

Speaker 1 That was cold. Well, so that's not enough.
So,

Speaker 1 number four train, the last stop, Rome Avenue,

Speaker 1 is 161st, Yankee State. So, what happens on a Sunday

Speaker 1 every year?

Speaker 1 Puerto Rican Day parade.

Speaker 1 So, right away,

Speaker 1 I'm calling, I'm going, I went to the Blue Note to see Eddie Palveri.

Speaker 1 And I told him, you got to do it. He said, good.
But I said, Eddie, word can't get out. Has been surprised.
This has to be on the low, on the low. So in post-production, I need another song.

Speaker 1 He said, Okay, I got you, Spike. He said, I'm doing another song, and the title is on the low.

Speaker 1 He said he performed them. The songs, yeah, and then thank you, D.

Speaker 1 Also,

Speaker 1 that was not the playback.

Speaker 1 We went seven things,

Speaker 1 six, seven takes. So every time we did it, they performed it live from beginning to end.

Speaker 1 Then we have Anthony Ramos

Speaker 1 and Roly Varez,

Speaker 1 two famous Bahuicos,

Speaker 1 Bahuka, Bolicua, Bahua, Boliqua, Bahuqua, Bolicua.

Speaker 1 Yeah, close enough, Buicua. That's not it, but

Speaker 1 then we recruited

Speaker 1 as many Baluicos as we could find in the Bronx.

Speaker 1 Puerto Rican ladies. Yeah, I got it.

Speaker 1 To be in the crowd, we hand hand out the Puerto Rican flags. So it was

Speaker 1 a joyous, joyous day. Smartest thing I ever did.
Calling Spike Ladies.

Speaker 5 Spike, one last question. What do you want more in life? Best director, Oscar, or a Knicks championship?

Speaker 1 Knicks championship.

Speaker 1 I said this already. Oh, Lord.
I said, I have two options. I'll give one away.

Speaker 1 We haven't won since the 72 73 seeds only got two how many lakers got don't ask him that

Speaker 1 listen i'm from new york friends stop now come on how long

Speaker 1 how long y'all see the tickets with lakers though every since mikael closed line rambas

Speaker 5 i was at that game covering

Speaker 1 oh man all right david thank you all david thank you take care

Speaker 5 I spoke with Spike Lee and Denzel Washington last week, and highest to lowest opened in case you missed the date.

Speaker 1 Oh, you didn't know? Now I'm...

Speaker 1 Oh, I'll just continue.

Speaker 1 Yes,

Speaker 1 Friday.

Speaker 5 It's in theaters now.

Speaker 5 I'm David Remnick, and that's our program for today. Thanks for joining us.
See you next time.

Speaker 4 The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

Speaker 4 Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbis of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell and Jared Paul.

Speaker 4 This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Summer, with guidance from Emily Botine and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barrish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett.

Speaker 4 The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Charina Endowment Fund.

Speaker 5 Hi, it's David Remnick. I'd like to ask for your help with something.
We're conducting a survey of our audience, and we want to hear from you as a New Yorker Radio Hour listener.

Speaker 5 We want to learn what you value, whether it's a dream guest for the show or thoughts on your favorite episodes.

Speaker 5 We want to hear from you, and as a token of our appreciation, you'll be eligible to enter a prize drawing up to $1,000 after you complete the survey. You can find the link in our episode notes.

Speaker 5 Thanks for listening.