Michael Wolff on MAGA’s Revolt Over Jeffrey Epstein

Support for this podcast and the following message comes from Sutter Health.

From life-changing transplants to high blood pressure care, Sutter's team of doctors, surgeons, and nurses never miss a beat.

And with cardiac specialty centers located in the community, patients can find personalized heart care that's close to home.

Learn more at Sutterhealth.org.

This show is supported by Odoo.

When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing.

Odoo solves this.

It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales.

Odo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way.

You can save money without missing out on the features you need.

Check out Odo at odoo.com.

That's odoo.com.

This message is brought to you by AppleCard.

Did you know AppleCard is designed to help you pay off your balance faster with smart payment suggestions?

And because fees don't help you, AppleCard doesn't have any.

So if your credit card isn't AppleCard, maybe it should be.

Subject to credit approval, AppleCard issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch.

Variable APRs range from 18.24% to 28.49% based on creditworthiness.

Rates as of July 1st, 2025.

Terms and more at applecard.com.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker.

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour.

I'm David Remnick.

Jeffrey Epstein's death in prison and the sense that the White House is somehow covering something up is causing a backlash from some of Trump's most ardent supporters.

It may be a bigger backlash than even the tariff crisis or the bombing of Iran or the astronomical deficits we're in for with the new budget.

It is an article of faith in MAGA circles that Epstein's suicide was suspicious and perhaps a murder plotted by Democrats because he knew too much about something.

That's the theory of it.

In February, Pam Bondi, the Attorney General, said that she had the so-called client list on her desk and was reviewing it.

But this month, the Department of Justice says there is no such list.

The FBI released surveillance footage from a camera outside of Epstein's prison cell when he died, but a few minutes of footage seems to be missing.

The president is now yelling at his followers on social media: shut up and move on or else.

Epstein, he said, is quote, somebody that nobody cares about.

Michael Wolfe is the author of four books about Trump, all bitterly disputed by Donald Trump, we should note, and Wolfe says that he interviewed Jeffrey Epstein repeatedly in the years before his arrest and his death in 2019.

I sat down to talk with Michael Wolf last week.

Michael, as we're speaking, MAGA seems to be blowing up.

There seems to be a huge divide among Trump's followers about

Epstein and what to do about information about him.

And is there a file?

Is there not a file?

And at the same time, suddenly, the President of the United States is saying, I'm sick of hearing about it.

Let's move on.

And he's trying to run as quickly as possible away

from the subject.

So fill us in a little bit on the background of where we are now with Jeffrey Epstein, Donald Trump, and the MA movement.

In 2014, just to set this scene,

seeking his rehabilitation,

he got in touch with me, and we had had some contact before and said, will you write about me?

Will you tell my story?

How did you feel about it,

knowing the sexual crimes that he was guilty of?

Well, even at that point, the sexual crimes he was then deemed guilty of were,

I think, two counts of prostitution.

You know, one was...

one was with an underage prostitute, but we were still very much in the context of prostitution.

Now, this doesn't forgive anything

or ameliorate this in any way.

And I, in fact, when he said this to me, demurred.

First, because I didn't necessarily think he deserved to be rehabilitated, nor that I'm usually not a guy who rehabilitates someone when I write about them.

But more to the point, I just didn't think that he would be honest in any way.

And he wanted you to write about him.

This had nothing to do with Donald Trump, just to be clear.

Right.

There was a level of

constantly a level of self-exposure, as though this was an ironic act.

He was

a Sybarite, a Sybarite

in that old-fashioned sense of I am

my identity comes from breaking all norms.

I live above norms.

I live outside of norms.

You know, and I often thought the,

you know, the

men of power and influence and money that congregated around him, that they

kind of admired the fact that

here was a guy who was taking his own power and influence and doing anything that he wanted with it, such that they might have wished that they could do this.

So all these people were living vicariously somehow?

I think, yeah.

So the reason we're talking is that you began to interview Jeffrey Epstein at great length.

I think you've you've said elsewhere that you have a hundred hours of taped interviews with him.

Yes.

So

just tell me about his intelligence.

With respect to real estate deals, he's brilliant.

He's a salesman.

He knows real estate really well.

Anything else but that,

he knows nothing.

No history.

No strategy.

And what I start to say about executive.

We began to talk in 2014 and I started to find this pretty compelling.

So I had not yet decided to do anything, although I began to consider doing something.

And you know, in this day and age when you just can flick your iPhone,

why would you not?

Because does nasty things to best friends, best friends' wives.

Anyone,

he first tries to gain your trust and then uses it to do bad things.

And then 2015 rolls around and Donald Trump begins his political career and I begin writing about it.

And

I shortly found that Jeffrey Epstein was among the most insightful people I knew or had come upon about Donald Trump and his true character.

Well, you say at one point elsewhere that

the relationship that Epstein had with Trump was in some ways the closest of either one of their lives.

And obviously, this is Epstein talking to you about it.

Right.

I mean, how did they both?

I think that they were both

both, this began in the 1980s.

They were both very much 80s guys very much interested in a certain kind in women i mean they were interested in women and money and they were interested in in in the same kind of women models that was much of the relationship hunting women they shared a girlfriend at one point for almost a year back and forth according to what epstein told you you say um there was a lot of they were involved in each other's business affairs um i think that they were each other's other's closest friend,

probably the closest friend each of them has ever had.

You're intuiting that or Epstein's too.

Well,

that was in part Epstein's characterization of this.

And in the level of details that I have, it seems credible to me.

Michael, is my understanding, please correct me if I'm wrong, is that you've had a hard time publishing anything about Epstein because, as you say, that publishers are very reluctant to publish you on this in particular.

You've had lots of bestsellers elsewhere.

Yeah, no, I think that there's a general, the,

let's call it,

you know, for lack of better,

the mainstream media has been highly resistant to this story.

I think you wrote a piece about Epstein that New York Magazine was going to publish and then did not.

No.

I mean, we discussed doing a piece and then I decided I didn't want to do it because I was afraid, actually.

The intensity of

issues that seemed to converge on anyone who was talking about Epstein, anyone who might have known Epstein,

was

just something

I thought life is too short.

So you also have talked many, many times in your journalistic career with Steve Bannon.

He

really is a big presence in some of your Trump books.

He also

had a relationship with Epstein.

So Steve met Jeffrey Epstein in 2017.

Steve was out of the White House then.

And

they bonded immediately.

They bonded over their relationship with Trump.

And in a sense, they still remain to me the guys, the two guys who are most insightful about Trump.

And they both at that point

hated Trump.

But

the two people had the most insight in Trump both hate him.

Yes.

Well, I think that's true about most people who have any insight at all into Trump.

It's actually true about most people who have spent any amount of time with Trump.

Why did Epstein hate Trump?

Their falling out in 2004 was over a real estate deal.

Now,

I mean, yes,

I've often thought that the one thing that can really inspire hatred among a certain kind of guy is

a real estate betrayal.

But before they fell out, they were close.

And Steve Bennon said to you, as I understand it at one point, the one thing he really feared, the one thing that Steve Bennon really feared in the 2016 race was that somehow Jeffrey Epstein's name would be a very important thing.

Yeah, he didn't say this to me.

He said this to

Epstein upon meeting him.

And I know this because I was standing there.

The first word Steve Bannon said to Jeffrey Epstein was,

you were the only person I was afraid of during the campaign.

And Epstein

responded, as well you should have been.

Right.

As well you should have been.

Because what would have happened?

Well, I think

Bannon appreciated that

Epstein held many, many Trump secrets, and especially secrets about

women.

And remember, the women issue certainly at one point was the one thing that seemed on the verge of dooming the Trump campaign.

So we've seen photographs of Jeffrey Epstein with Donald Trump,

more than one.

What would be so damning about that?

They're young men.

They're out and about.

You may not like them, but there's no evidence I've heard that Trump did something illegal in conjunction with Epstein.

Yeah, I don't, and I don't know.

I mean, I don't know that Donald Trump was with any of the girls that Jeffrey Epstein ultimately went to jail for.

I do know and have seen

a set of photographs.

Jeffrey Epstein

had about a dozen photographs, Polaroids, I believe

they were,

with

Donald Trump with a set of girls around Epstein's pool in Palm Beach.

Do you have these pictures?

No, I don't.

I don't.

And

they were brought out of out of Epstein's safe

in return Michael should we care about why should we care

there is a likelihood that those photographs were in the safe that the FBI raided and

took possession of

part of the Epstein files that brings us to the present tense Pam Bondi who's now the attorney general of course as well as the people that are now the leadership of the FBI they all kept saying for the entire length length of the campaign that the government had to release the Epstein files.

And Bondi, not so long ago, was asked about this thing called the client list that was supposedly in the files.

And she said, it's sitting on my desk to review.

The DOJ may be releasing the list of Jeffrey Epstein's clients?

Will that really happen?

It's sitting on my desk right now to review.

That's been a directive by President Trump.

I'm reviewing that.

I'm reviewing JFK files, MLK files.

Then suddenly we're told that there is no such list.

Michael, what do you make of all that?

Well, I think

I draw the obvious inference.

Pam Bondi works for Donald Trump.

She is his, at least as he conceives of their relationship, is his lawyer.

So my inference would be that

Pam Bondi's client gave her directions.

And I think he has wanted to

sweep the Epstein relationship

under the rug for some time.

And he has managed to avoid this as an issue for him.

You know, this is the last thing, the last issue that he wants to be front and center.

And do you think Trump will keep the leadership of the FBI in Pambanda?

I would not say that her life expectancy is

long.

Yeah.

I'm talking with journalist Michael Wolf, the author of four books about Donald Trump's political career, and we'll continue our conversation in a moment.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour.

WNYC Studios is supported by Quince.

Fall is here and you need some fun new basics, but you don't want to drop a fortune.

Quince has you covered, literally.

High quality fabrics, classic fits, and lightweight layers for changing weather, all at prices that make sense.

I've ordered so much from them and honestly, I love it all.

Quince has closet staples you'll want to reach for over and over, like cozy cashmere and cotton sweaters from just $50, breathable flow-knit polos, and comfortable lightweight pants that somehow work for both weekend hangs and dressed-up dinners.

The best part?

Everything with Quince is half the cost of similar brands.

And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes.

Besides the wardrobe staples, I've also been loving the home goods.

The Quince bath sheets make me feel like I'm at a high-end spa, and I've been sleeping like a baby on their 100% European linen sheets.

Keep it classic and cool with long-lasting staples from Quince.

Go to quince.com/slash radio hour for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.

That's q-u-in-ce-e.com/slash radio hour to get free shipping and 365-day returns.

Quince.com/slash radio hour.

Planet Money helps you understand the economy.

We find the people at the center of the story.

Garbage in New York.

That was like a controlled substance.

We show you how money influences everything.

Tell me what you like by telling me how you spend your money.

And we dig until we get answers.

I had a bad feeling you were going to bring that up.

Planet Money finds out.

All you have to do is listen.

The Planet Money Podcast from NPR.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour.

I'm David Remnick, and I'm speaking with the journalist Michael Wolf about the Jeffrey Epstein scandal and the Trump administration.

Wolf is the author of four books about Trump, Fire and Fury, Siege, Landslide, and All or Nothing.

His books have contained some explosive revelations about Trump, often denied by the Trump people.

And while aspects of his reporting have been challenged and criticized, a great deal, in fact, he's had some remarkable access to the White House.

Wolf also says that he has 100 hours of taped interviews with Jeffrey Epstein from the years before his second arrest.

Epstein died in a New York jail cell and apparent suicide in August of 2019.

And what about MAGA as a movement?

This was no small part

of the

thinking in the MAGA movement, that somehow a conspiracy theory about Jeffrey Epstein and his death was all part of the systems, the deep state ability to keep secrets and do dark and dastardly things.

How do you think this is going to play out in MAGA?

And does Donald Trump care very much?

Yeah, well,

I think that they got caught on this.

This is being hoisted on your own petard.

The central point from which this grew is the Clinton relationship with Epstein.

And Clinton and Epstein had

quite a strong relationship, quite a bond for about two years.

So yes,

that is there, but they seem to have overlooked the Trump relationship, which was deeper and longer.

Now, I think that there's something else, and this occurred to me literally.

I woke up this morning and I thought, oh,

that this may be the beginning of Donald Trump's lame duck years.

So

we have these MAGA people who are beginning naturally

to position themselves as the leaders of this movement when Donald Trump exits the stage.

They have to begin at some point to position themselves actually against Trump, or at least to push J.D.

Vance, who would be in the front-runner position, toward Donald Trump and distinguishing themselves.

And this includes Steve Bannon, obviously, who has wanted nothing more

than to be the president himself, Tucker Carlson.

I mean, these are, these are,

I think they are beginning to think of what are the issues that they have to, that they can make their own.

And they're, in in some cases, prepared to betray the founder of MAGA?

Well, I think that's confusing to them at this point.

They didn't think that would happen, but now it has happened.

What do they do?

And no one knows.

They suddenly can't say, oh, forget about Jeffrey Epstein.

And Trump can't say,

bring on the Jeffrey Epstein stuff because he will be exposed in this.

Or he might be.

But so this brings me to the crux of the thing.

Michael, you've written any number of bestsellers.

You've won the National Magazine Award multiple times.

At the same time, over time, you've gotten a lot of criticism from everybody, Stephen Ratner, Sean Hannity, Tony Blair, Rupert Murdoch.

They've accused you, or various critics, of inaccuracy or worse.

You know these critiques.

Eric Wempel of the Washington Post, among others, said you should apologize for going on Bill Maher's show and saying you were absolutely sure that Nikki Haley as UN ambassador was having an affair with Trump.

So

you've heard this.

I didn't say that, but that's okay.

You did.

Everything.

David, I did not say that.

In fact, there is nothing.

I didn't mention Nikki Haley.

The implication might have been that, but that was anyway.

Okay.

And you said even when you were asked about these critiques, and I work in a world in which everything is a lie and everything is a performance.

If it rings true, it's true.

So there's been this

critique of you that you're perfectly aware of.

It seems to me you're sitting on a hundred hours, you say, of tapes

of

what's potentially journalistic dynamite.

What do you find that's the most

dispositive and the most damning about

Donald Trump vis-à-vis Epstein?

Well, I find Epstein's descriptions

of Donald Trump

to be pretty eye-opening at any rate,

from how he picked up women to

I think he called him a horrible human being at one point.

He did.

And there was one point at which Epstein

says the problem with Donald Trump is he has no scruples.

I always thought that was.

But

I hasten to add, this is Jeffrey Epstein.

No, no, but

I hasten to add:

if Jeffrey Epstein thinks a person has no scruples, they must really have no scruples.

Or, conversely, that Jeffrey Epstein has no right to pronounce on anybody's character.

Well, I think that that's part of the resistance to this story, why the media,

the mainstream media, the New Yorker, the New Yorker

has had

no stories stories about Jeffrey Epstein at great length.

And that is, and I think one of the issues is, is the mainstream media having completely demonized Jeffrey Epstein, he cannot then be a witness against the president of the United States.

So I think that there's been this incredible awkwardness about this story.

But this is the thing, there is a context is there is a story to be told here.

But let me say that virtually everybody, everybody, every network, every major news outlet,

every streaming service, at least a significant number of book publishers have turned down this story.

And most recently,

a publisher of mine who generally would be interested in anything that

I wanted to write.

Double day, yeah.

And the response was, this is too icky.

So now I think that that may now change.

Aaron Powell, Jr.: Finally, Michael, is it your intention now to go through these tapes where immediately

And I think a lot of people would invite you to do so,

in particular where it has to do with the politics of now.

Let's forget Donald, let's forget Jeffrey Epstein's life story and biography and the rest.

But just in terms of the relationship between the two of them and what it does or does not reflect on the president of the United States, at the moment seems like something of an imperative to a journalist.

I have done this at some length before, and this managed to have no impact whatsoever.

Will it have an impact now?

Well,

I am trying to tell exactly that story now.

Michael, how would you characterize this relationship?

What was the

texture of that relationship?

What was the uniqueness of it?

Well, I mean, I think the texture of the relationship was that these were two

incredibly amoral, you might call them loaf

guys who were out for

for money and for a good time, and

that was the nature of

their bond.

But I think the complication is having created this Epstein conspiracy or this Epstein demonization or setting Epstein, which certainly the MAGA people do, pretty much everybody does, as the worst person who has ever lived.

And then

And then to have a situation in which it becomes clear that the worst person who's ever lived, his best friend is the President of the United States, Donald Trump.

You know, I think that becomes a political complication for everyone involved.

I can't quite tell how you feel about Jeffrey Epson.

On the one hand,

you make it very plain that you're hardly approving of

his life and his behavior.

But when some people say he's the worst person who's ever lived in the world.

David, let me tell you,

I'm a journalist.

Yeah, you're not his lawyer.

And

I am the person here who is probably

certainly the journalist closest to this story.

And that's my job, if someone would let me do it, to tell this story.

Michael Wolfe, thank you.

Michael Wolfe's most recent book is All or Nothing.

How Trump Recaptured America.

We spoke last week.

I'm David Remnick.

Thanks for joining us this week.

See you next time.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbis of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell and Jared Paul.

This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Summer.

With guidance from Emily Botine and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Charina Endowment Fund.

The big question of this Trump administration over and over again has been this.

Can they really do that?

Can they reinterpret the 14th Amendment?

Can they ignore district court rulings, dismantle the Education Department, revoke Rosie O'Donnell's citizenship?

All of us have questions about the administration and its legal challenges and how the courts are ruling on them.

So to answer your questions, the New Yorkers legal experts will join us here on the program.

Constitutional scholar Jeannie Suk-Gerson and columnist Ruth Marcus.

Please send us your questions about Trump and the courts to New Yorkerradio at wnyc.org.

Ruth Marcus and Jeannie Suk-Gerson will join me and we'll address as many of your questions as we possibly can.

Again, that's New Yorker Radio.

One word, New YorkerRadio at wnyc.org.

And tell us where you're writing from, too.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Since WNYC's first broadcast in 1924, we've been dedicated to creating the kind of content we know the world needs.

Since then, New York Public Radio's rigorous journalism has gone on to win a Peabody Award and a DuPont Columbia Award, among others.

In addition to this award-winning reporting, your sponsorship also supports inspiring storytelling and extraordinary music that is free and accessible to all.

To get in touch and find out more, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.