Bret Baier On Trump’s Love-Hate Relationship with Fox News

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This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

Welcome to The New Yorker Radio Hour.

I'm David Ramnick.

The relationship between Fox News and Donald Trump is not just close, it can be profoundly influential.

Trump frequently responds to segments in real-time online, even if only to complain about a poll that he doesn't like.

He's tapped the network for nearly two dozen roles within his administration, including the current Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth, who is a former weekend host.

The network is seen as having an outsized impact on his relationship with his base and even his agenda.

And most recently, it's been reported that Fox News' coverage of the Iran-Israel conflict influenced Trump's decision to enter that fight.

America First is not sitting in a beach chair and using words.

It's taking decisive action when we can take out Ford with one swoop of an airplane.

And while the network's right-wing commentators from Sean Hannity to Laura Ingram to Mark Levin tend to grab the most headlines and stand as the ideological coloring of the network, Special Report, its 6 p.m.

broadcast that's anchored by Brett Baer,

is essential to the conservative media complex.

Brett Baer draws over 3 million viewers a night, at times surpassing legacy brands like CBS Evening News, despite being available in half as many homes.

Now, Baer insists on his impartiality, but his network's reputation as an outlet for the right and its connection to President Trump himself can sometimes make his job, well, a source of real fascination.

We spoke last week.

Brett, welcome to the belly of the beast.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Good to be here.

Who knew?

Who knew?

Right.

The New Yorker in Fox.

So tell me a little bit about that.

I want to get a sense of what when you're at Fox, you think about what's now called the lame street media, the New York Times and the New Yorkers of the world, because God knows, we're being perfectly honest with each other, on my side of the street, if that's what it is, there's a lot of talk about Fox.

Sure.

So in the interest of coming to understand each other a little bit better, I wanted to have this conversation because I really respect the interviews you do.

And

I think it's probably a complicated role that you play at Fox.

I want to talk about that as well.

But as it's said, we all live in our silos now.

It's very, very different than it might have been 25, 30 years ago.

So how do you view it?

You know, first of all, it's good to be here.

Thanks for having me.

I don't view it adversarial in any way.

I've worked with all kinds of folks in every different media outlet.

I have a lot of friends in the so-called mainstream media.

And I like to think of myself as doing a lot of the same stories, maybe in different ways sometimes, but trying to keep it fair in my view.

I've been at Fox for 27 years.

So the Atlanta Bureau started my apartment with a fax machine and a cell phone.

And, you know, I went from covering the Southeast and South America to covering the Pentagon to covering the White House.

And then I took over for my mentor and friend, Britt Hume, 16 years ago now.

in January of 2009.

So, you know, I've been anchor and executive editor of Special Report, and really

my focus is horseblinders on that hour and trying to

create an hour of news and analysis that somebody could watch no matter where their political leanings are and come to the end of the hour and say, that was fair, and I know what's going on in the U.S.

and around the world.

So, I don't have any animosity.

I really don't, towards anybody else.

Why did you get into the business?

Why did you become a journalist?

You know,

I was a ham in high school.

I was the sports editor of the paper.

I interned at a local station in Atlanta, WSB, with a sports guy, Ernie Johnson Jr., actually, who went on to NBA fame

and his coverage.

And I looked over at the news people and said, wow,

I like that over there.

Was politics on your mind as such?

No, it really wasn't.

Did you grow up in a political environment?

No, not really.

I mean, it paid attention to it, but it wasn't really a driving force until i became a general assignment reporter um for a little station in hiltonhead south carolina rockford illinois raleigh north carolina and then i started with fox when fox started but i really became interested in politics really to try to file stories to get on britt hume's show special report so i would bounce around the southeast and do political stories to try to get on that show the beginning you're describing is the story of god knows how many other journalists and TV journalists as well.

Are you saying that you could just as easily have ended up and been comfortable at CBS News or NBC News?

Sure, yeah.

I mean, I've worked for an NBC affiliate, an ABC affiliate, a CBS affiliate.

So, yeah, my trajectory was I got a call from an agent at the time who said this place, Fox News, would like to hire you.

And I said, they want to go for an interview.

And he said, no, they want you to be the Atlanta guy.

And that's how it started.

Aaron Powell, would you say that you have politics?

Some journalists deny that they do, or they tamp them down and maybe put them in a jar over by

the door.

Yeah.

Yeah,

I'd like to think that people don't know what my politics are.

But yeah, of course, I'm not a robot.

I have feelings and thoughts about it.

So tell me about that.

But I really do think in my job that that's not my role, to get emotionally behind some issue.

I'm not saying that it is, but when you you go to the boating booth,

do you generally pull the lever for blue or red?

I don't vote.

You don't vote?

This is like my old editor at the Washington Post, Len Downey.

He said he didn't vote.

So you don't do it as a matter of kind of professional hygiene.

Yeah.

I mean, it's weird.

I just don't.

You think it would put you in a spot?

I would answer your question.

Yeah.

And I would answer it

legitimately, I would tell you.

Right.

But I don't, so I don't don't have to answer that question.

So it's a matter of comfort.

Yeah, it's a matter of comfort.

And it's

listen, I'm listed as an independent.

And I like to think that I can think both ways.

But of course, I have feelings about certain things.

And

when I'm talking to friends, I express that.

What about when you're talking publicly?

When I'm talking publicly, I'm really thinking about

all sides watching my show

that I'm not advocating.

I'm not emotional.

I'm trying to preside over this hour and give you a sense of what this side says, what that side says.

You make the decision.

And it sounds cliche that we report, you decide, but I truly believe that.

That my job is to lay it out there and let the viewers decide how they think about it.

What is the job of an interviewer?

When you go in and you've interviewed Trump

as many times as anybody I can imagine, certainly on television.

What are you aiming to figure out?

What are you aiming to do?

Ideally, I'm aiming to take them off their talking points,

not hear the recited

thing that we've heard X number of times.

I was friends with Tim Russard, the late Tim Russard, and we'd fly back and forth to New York here, and I would sit next to him and say, you know, Tim, I really love your style.

What do you think the secret is?

And he said, Brad, it's never about the questions.

It's always about listening to the answer.

And I always took that to heart because it's always the redirect, listening to the answer, figuring out what the nugget is that's new, and then redirecting.

And

that's what I'm trying to do, no matter what the ideological side is.

Is there a particular

requirement for interviewing Trump?

Get in on the breath?

No,

his strategy is to overwhelm.

A lot of times.

But, you know, if you get in the cadence with him and you ask the question and then you follow up, he does, to his credit, answer the question eventually.

Sometimes he weaves, as he says, but he gives you an answer, as opposed to some politicians who never give you an answer.

Aaron Trevor Barrett, Trump comes into the room.

The president comes into the room, sits across from you.

And, you know, it's a highly artificial environment.

There's lights all around.

There are cameras.

an element of occasion.

What's the immediate goal in the first question?

Depends on the interview.

Because he's going to overwhelm you, isn't he?

Yeah, of course.

I mean, he's going to try to filibuster or talk about what he wants to talk about.

But I'm trying to get to the heart of whatever the news is at the day.

It also depends on the interview.

I mean, my last interview I had with him was at the Super Bowl.

I mean, ahead of the Super Bowl.

So it's a different interview at the Super Bowl interview as opposed to the previous interview I did with him as a candidate, where we were in the middle of these legal cases and I was pressing on very, you know, pointed things.

He didn't like it.

We're talking about, if I remember correctly, Brett, the thing that really annoyed him is when you pressed him about the keeping of papers, that death case.

Yes.

He got, let's put it not too fine a point on, he was really pissed.

Yeah, he called it a nasty interview afterwards.

First of all, I won in 2020 by a lot, okay?

Let's get that straight.

I won in 2020.

You know that this is a very important thing.

And if you look at all of the tapes, if you look at everything that you want to look at, you take a look at Truth to Vote, where they have people stuffing the ballot boxes on tapes, or

let's go to recent.

Well, wait a minute, let's go to recent.

FBI Twitter.

Let's go to recent, the 51 agents, all corrupt stuff, Brad.

Understand about the

election.

No,

it's not the election.

That's cheating on the election.

You lost the 2020 election.

Brad,

you take a look at all of the stuff that you're talking about.

Is that because he expects something from Fox that he might not expect from,

I don't know, CNN?

I don't know about that.

I don't think so.

I've always, in every time I've interviewed him, I think taken it as a tough but fair effort.

And,

you know, over time, he's come to expect that.

Now, he's called me, you know, I tell you what, Brett, you are.

You're a five.

Sometimes you're a four.

You're nowhere near a seven.

That's my best Trump.

That's pretty good.

I have to say.

I have to say, not bad at all.

So what do you do when he

lies?

Well, you fact-check can you get to do it in real time?

That's not easy.

As much as you can.

Like in that June 23 interview, which was really at times contentious, I tried to fact-check real time, but it's coming at you a lot of it.

And a lot of interviews, interviewers who have

interviewed the president, you know, have that challenge.

And to do it real time, you've got to be on your game on a lot of different fronts.

I think I did it fairly well in that interview.

In others, you know, it's

not as good.

But to be able to get the access and ask the questions is a big deal.

I started life as a reporter at the Washington Post.

The editor at that time was Benjamin Bradley, Ben Bradley.

True.

And when he was a younger guy, when he was at Newsweek, he wasn't just a nodding acquaintance of John F.

Kennedy.

They were close, close friends.

And that was something he came to regret because not only did he come to realize that it was wrong, but I think he also felt that on any number of occasions, the president took advantage of that friendship.

I'm not by any stretch of the imagination saying you are close friends with or even friends with Donald Trump, but you have played golf with him a number of times.

Is there not some peril in that kind of

relationship?

I think it's a great question.

I answer it this way.

Tell me the journalist that won't take the three-hour off-the-record ability to pick the brain of the commander-in-chief, the president who's making these big decisions, in an environment that is more relaxed, that perhaps he's more open to

talking about different things, to get you a sense of where his head is in the middle of all these big things.

Tell me that that journalist who doesn't take that.

And I'll say

I don't know who turns it down.

And I understand your question.

It doesn't run the risk of coziness so that you

start giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Trevor Burrus

Now, I don't think it's bad to let him say his piece and to hear that side.

and press respectfully but pointedly

in a way that's,

you know, maybe maybe he doesn't love the interview, which is the one I was, I had still played golf with him right around the time that I did that interview.

Are you talking about politics on the golf course?

Sometimes.

Sometimes it's golf.

Sometimes it's other things.

But I'm getting a few questions that illuminate some aspect of my reporting

that I

tuck away off the record and

able to better report on some things that he's doing.

Look, I wrote a book about Barack Obama.

I know Barack Obama Obama a bit, but I don't play golf with him on the business.

Would you play golf with him?

It's a great question.

If he asked you, would you go out for three and a half hours with Barack Obama?

It's not even golf.

I've had any number of off-the-record conversations with him, and I find it deeply, I'll be very honest, I find the whole off-the-record thing very frustrating.

Well, it's conflicting because you want to report what they say.

I'm not his friend.

Guess what?

I've had many off-the-records with Barack Obama and with Joe Biden and with a lot of politicians who are on all sides.

Aaron Powell, Jr.: Do you find any of those people distinctly different than they are

on the record?

100 percent.

All of them.

All of them.

Aaron Powell.

To what extent, let's talk about Joe Biden for a second.

To what extent did the media blow the story of his,

to be unkind about it, really rapid aging, the sort of the process that we see all the time in life of slowly, slowly, and all at once, the all at once being the performance and the debate.

Where did we go wrong?

Or when you look at me, are you saying, why are you saying me?

We got it right and you got it wrong.

Go ahead.

I mean, you said it, I didn't, but I think it was on my show a lot of times.

Britt Hume mentioned it in his analysis.

Peter Doocy asked questions specifically about the mental cognitive ability and the critics who were saying he's losing a step.

There were analysis pieces in various papers, media who cover media, who said Fox was just doing this to make the president look bad.

And, you know, it was a giant conspiracy, and it was a Fox thing.

I can almost hear coming in through my headphones people telling me, ask him, wait a minute, wait a minute.

What about when Trump just goes off as he does what he calls, what is it called?

His weave.

The weave.

I know.

Is that a sign of

mental discipline?

Aaron Powell, Jr.: Well, listen, he obviously has a style.

I'm not going to analyze, but I don't think you could say that President Trump is in the same cognitive place as Joe Biden.

And I think that was evident in

that debate.

But more importantly, he's taken more questions in the first 30 days of this presidency than Joe Biden did in two days.

He's talked to every member of the press, no matter where they are, ABC, CBS, NBC.

But I'm not defending him.

What I'm saying to you is that story, that cognitive story, was a big mess.

A big mess.

Brett Baer is the anchor for Fox News's special report.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, and we'll continue our conversation in just a moment.

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Brett Baer has made a name for himself in the ideologically divided environment of cable news.

He vehemently defends his position as non-partisan, and at times he's often had to square a version of the facts that his audience prefers with reality.

We spoke this past week about how Baer keeps that that position amid the attacks that can come from both sides of the political aisle and sometimes directly from President Trump himself.

Our conversation continues now.

In at least one interview that I recall, you said to President Trump, you lost the 2020 election.

That was the interview that he thought was nasty.

He did not love that.

No.

And yet, a lot of people on Fox

not only said the opposite and continue to say the opposite,

but they've kept that alive as a talking point.

Are you comfortable with that?

I always point out that he lost the 2020 election.

He can make the argument that it was stolen because of the coverage of the Hunter Biden laptop.

You know, had the media covered the Hunter Biden laptop in that moment, and had Biden not said that 51 intelligence officers said it was Russian disinformation at that debate, could it have moved enough votes in each one of these states to make a difference?

I can't make that call.

I can't say that that's true or not true.

But I do know that it was.

But isn't it an empirical fact as opposed to a matter of opinion?

Some things are opinion and some things are facts, I think.

Well, the fact was that it was Hunter Biden's laptop.

And the fact was that the 51 intelligence agents.

But a lot of things, a lot of factors influence the political weather.

Of course.

Well, that's what I'm getting to, is that I can't say say that that's going to move the needle, but maybe that's the argument that he's making.

It's not.

He's saying it was more stolen, which is why I said it's not.

But what I'm saying to you is that the people who say that there were things that happened that were rigged, including the coverage of that, including this thing,

they can make an argument.

As far as looking at the actual election, you know, with the votes that they found that, you know, didn't match up or if there were shifts, there were never enough votes to overcome

the lead in all of those states, and we made that clear on my show and other shows.

Does President Trump call you on the phone a lot?

He calls me.

And you call him?

I have called him, but it's more the other way.

First of all,

reporters having the President of the United States' cell phone number seems to me without precedent.

100% without precedent.

But would you take it?

What does it tell you?

It tells you that he wants to be front and center in every story, and he is front and center in every story.

And he wants ⁇

what I take from it off the record is his perspective, his mindset.

It seems to me so strange that the same man that says

the press is the enemy of the people

is calling,

I don't know, Maggie Haberman, Brett.

Jonathan Carl.

Now the Atlantic has the number.

Yeah, well, what am I?

Chop liver?

Yeah, yeah.

You want it?

I'll give it to you.

Please do.

Let me write that down.

He would answer.

I guarantee you, you would answer.

But what is that about?

His relationship to the press seems obsessive, contemptuous,

legalistic.

I mean,

I don't mind telling you, I'm on the end of a lawsuit on the Pulitzer board.

It's an incomprehensible lawsuit.

Sure, it's the CBS thing, the

ABC thing.

How do you analyze that?

I think it's a great question.

I think it is part of the man.

I think it is part of his time here in New York as a New York real estate

mogul

and the rough and tumble to punch back and to characterize your opposition before they can characterize you.

I think that's part of it.

I think it is this cat and mouse game, you know, for all of the things he says about the media.

Again, he's reaching out and doing interviews with the same people he says are nasty.

Not just nasty.

Yeah.

You got the nice part of it.

Yeah, yeah.

It gets a lot worse.

Oh, yeah.

Well, you should see his supporters after that interview on my textbook.

Talk about that.

Well, yeah, it's a

part of it.

Yeah.

you know.

What were you called?

I was called everything.

I was called everything.

Anything you can say, even on

the podcast version of this conversation?

You know, just

liberal.

And, you know, super crazy.

After your family, the whole thing.

But let me ask you this.

All presidents come to, in some way or another, resent

the inquisitiveness and pursuit of the press.

Enemy of the people is something else, no?

I agree, and I wish you wouldn't use it.

And

I've expressed that.

I've expressed publicly on the.

On a golf course?

I have.

And what does he say?

It's off the record, David.

On the record, he said to Leslie Stall, I do this

because

it causes disbelief in people.

Right.

A certain relativism, the thing that the right used to argue about, by the way, cultural relativism and so on.

But

you have to admit that he touched a cord

enough with people who

liked, maybe didn't like everything he was doing, but liked what he was talking about,

liked the policies he was talking about, enough to get elected in the face of, arguably,

an onslaught of coverage and attacks that came from one side.

I mean, the first presidency was all about the Russia investigation for almost six, seven months, that's all we heard about.

It was nonstop.

I'm not going to accept the premise, but okay, go ahead.

But I mean, it really was nonstop.

Well, you had all the intelligence agencies saying there was election interference.

The question was whether or not the president played any role in that

other than being the passive recipient of it.

Right.

But I mean, he was characterized as a Russian asset in some corners.

Although it was made confusing when the President of the United States gets up and says and addresses Russia and says, what?

Yeah, I know.

Bring it on.

Right.

And the emails and final emails.

We covered it all.

But my point is that that was a big part of the coverage of his first term.

Then in this latest effort, all of these legal cases that were going after every element of

now you can argue the

whether it was right or wrong, but it was characterized as lawfare by the right, and people believed that, that it was over the top.

So, in the face of all of that, he still touched enough people to get elected twice.

And when he first ran, nobody gave him a shot.

We just came on the 10-year anniversary of that escalator ride down.

And going back in the media clips saying, Donald Trump will never be president, this is a joke, blah, blah, blah.

And now he's been there twice.

So, he's touching something in the country that some of the media missed.

I find you a very straightforward and fair interviewer, nine times out of ten.

I confess to you that I thought when you interviewed Kamala Harris, and maybe you've heard this before,

you were, and men can do this, were a little interrupty and maybe more

interrupting of her than of Donald Trump.

I've heard that criticism.

The first bill, practically within hours of taking the oath, was a bill to fix our immigration system.

Yes, ma'am.

It was called the U.S.

Citizenship Act of 2008.

It was essentially a

pathway to citizenship for the U.S.

May I finish responding to you.

But you have to let me finish.

You had the White House and the House and the Senate

responding to the point you're raising.

And I'd like to finish.

Yes, ma'am.

I think that if you look at that June 23 interview of Donald Trump, it was about equal as far as my push.

Not an interruption.

Definitely in terms of tough questions.

I wouldn't argue with that.

I would look back.

I did interrupt to try to redirect.

I think the Vice President wanted to come very combative to that interview and wanted that.

And you wanted to push her back.

Well, I was actually ready to start with something very, you know,

what's the most important issue for for you, Madam Vice President.

And to be honest, we did a pre-tape.

I'll give you the back story quickly.

We wanted to do it live at 6 p.m.

They wanted to do a pre-tape, which was fine with us.

They said 5 o'clock, and we were ready at 4.30.

She had an event.

She was finished with that event and in the building by about 4.35.

We just told the folks, handlers, we needed to start by 5.15,

otherwise turning the tape around for the top of the 6 o'clock would be logistically tough for us to do.

So

she's in the building, the event's over, I'm there, lights are ready, we're all ready, 4.35, 4.45, 4.50, 5 o'clock, 5.05, 5.10, 5.13.

Now, at 5.15,

we have to do it live because we can't physically get the.

Do it live.

No, I wasn't going to do that.

It wouldn't be caught on camera.

But 5.15, so my producers are pulling their hair out.

They're sweating.

Everybody's running around.

5.13.30.

5.14.

5.14.30.

The vice president walks out of that room, sits down.

I try to...

engage, as you did before I came on in some conversation.

It was a great event outside, Madam Vice President.

good to see you.

And she turned to me and said, you ready?

You didn't like that.

Well, I just thought it was icing the kicker.

They were trying to create this pressure moment, and it changed the dynamic.

And she was.

Icing the kicker for our non-football.

Oh, yes, yes, yes.

Just to call timeout right before a field goal attempt to make the kicker think about it extra hard.

Thank you.

You bet.

That's good.

Try to reach a broad audience.

That's really good.

That's really good.

But anyway, it just started like that, and I knew at that moment that she wanted to be combative.

Listen,

we gave a lot of time.

She talked about issues she wanted to talk about, but also...

But I think you're telling me she pissed you off a little bit by coming in.

I thought it was a little

crude.

Yes.

I did.

And it doesn't emotionally affect me, but as I sat there thinking, what is she trying to do by doing this?

And I think it was to create that that dynamic.

And they admitted as much later, privately.

Aaron Powell, Jr.:

When you watch some of the opinion shows on your network,

and I'm not making any inferences about your politics.

But tell me this.

Do you ever want to throw a shoe

at some of your colleagues or their flickering images on the screen?

Listen, they have a different job than I have.

I think they do it very well.

Their opinion, they come from an advocacy point of view or a perspective.

They oftentimes stir the pot.

We are under one umbrella.

We're rowing in the same way, but we do something completely different.

Do you not feel implicated in some way by their excesses at times?

You know,

people paint with a broad brush.

The people who have a really, really big problem with Fox likely haven't watched Fox.

So I tell people, watch my show for three times.

Drop me a post.

Your show.

Yes.

Drop me a post and say, was this show fair?

But they're not just watching your show.

They're going to understand Laura Ingram.

They're going to watch all of them.

Sean Hannity, the whole show.

So tell me the other opinion side of the cable news verse.

Show me the news show that's equal to Special Reports on MSNBC.

Do you think Rachel Maddow is just

the equivalent of Mark Levin or Laura Ingram?

Aaron Powell, Jr.: I mean, she obviously is an opinion person who advocates an opinion.

I mean, you couldn't tell.

What I'm saying is that

is one more fact-based than the other?

I think that's the crux of the matter.

It depends on your point of view, I suppose.

Facts don't depend on

your point of view.

Of course.

But in the presentation of them, like they're trying to get the water cooler to go one way or another.

Do you ever worry that you are the thing that they can point to and say, but Brett Baer,

fair-minded, straight up the middle, rigorous interviews.

Whereas the gravy is coming from, the profits are coming from, some of the biggest ratings they're getting is from people who are, let's just say, in another mode.

I would argue that if you build it, they will come.

Listen, I think the opinion folks do what they do.

The five is an amazing lead-in for me.

It gets the highest ratings exponentially.

But I look at those things where I'm beating network news across the country and here in New York, NBC, ABC, CBS.

That's a big shift for cable news to be able to say that.

So I think about the product and, again, focus on my product with horseblinders on.

Fairly.

What if you got an offer and they said,

hi, I'm from NBC.

Yeah.

Come to New York.

We'll put you on MSNBC or the executives at CNN called.

Come on, we'll give you an even better deal.

Would you do that?

I'm really happy at Fox.

I know you are.

And I've been there 27 years.

But would it be something that you would rule out of hand for matters of loyalty or ideology?

No.

So you'd be comfortable working at MSNBC doing what you do.

If all things were the same.

If MSNBC had a news show that they would develop and leave the executive editor to make the news decisions about the coverage in that hour.

I mean, I have a lot of autonomy in this position, and Fox has been tremendous and has supported the news division so much.

But I'm not trying to be tricky here.

This is an honest question.

If you could do that at a network that's overall

politics were different, you'd be fine doing that.

Yeah, I mean, but I'm not thinking about that.

I'm not ⁇ I have a really great position right now, and I feel like we are driving a lot of news, not just for Fox viewers, but for every viewer.

We get picked up in papers and the New York Times and Washington Post, and we are making news.

We have reporters breaking news,

and they're empowering us to do that.

So, listen, again,

I'm very happy, but to your question,

if there's a news product, I think there should be more news shows,

not fewer.

And I'm sad that there aren't more news shows like Special Report on other channels.

I mean, I'm happy in one business sense because I think people look to that to try to get a straight shot, but they can't really find it a lot of places.

Brett Baer, thank you so much.

Hey, thanks.

It's been a pleasure.

Brett Baer.

He's been at Fox News for nearly three decades.

and he anchors the network special report five nights a week.

That's the New Yorker Radio Hour for today.

Thanks so much for listening.

See you next time.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbis of Tune Yards, with additional music by Jared Paul.

This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Summer.

With guidance from Emily Botine and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Charina Endowment Fund.

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