Sources & Methods: Navy cartel strike, China's power flex

Support for NPR and the following message come from Indeed.

You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday.

Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed.

Claim your $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com/slash NPR.

Terms and conditions apply.

I'm Tamara Keith here with a Saturday bonus episode for you.

It's the most recent episode of NPR's national security podcast, Sources and Methods, where NPR reporters who cover the military, State Department, and spy agencies break down the biggest NATSEC news of the week.

We're going to share these episodes each Saturday for a couple of weeks because their show is a lot like ours, and we think you'll like it.

You might even hear us on there from time to time.

New episodes drop every Thursday, and you can follow the show wherever you listen to this one.

So here you go: Sources and Methods, the new national security podcast from NPR.

So I was talking to this U.S.

official I've known for years, and he said, this is a new way ahead.

And I said, you guys aren't going to shoot on the land in Venezuela, are you?

He wouldn't answer, but he said, this will continue.

The might of the U.S.

military trained against South American drug cartels as three men, the leaders of U.S.

adversaries, rivals, China, Russia, and North Korea, Korea stand shoulder to shoulder for the very first time.

This is Sources and Methods from NPR.

I'm Mary Louise Kelly.

Every Thursday, we discuss the biggest national security stories of the week.

I do that with my colleagues from NPR's NATSAC team, covering the military, the State Department, the intelligence community, and also with NPR international correspondents stationed around the world.

Today, that is Anthony Kyon.

He's here in the middle of the night for him, 13 hours ahead of us in Seoul, South Korea, his home base reporting on the region.

Anthony, good evening, good morning.

I'm not sure.

Hello, how are you?

Wee hours of the morning.

Good morning.

Good wee hours to you.

Yeah, good wee hours to you.

And here with me, happily in the same time zone, indeed, the very same studio here in Washington on a Thursday workday, Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman.

Hey there, Tom.

Hey, Mary Louise.

Hi.

So it has been a short work week for many of us here in the U.S.

because of the Labor Day holiday, but there's been no shortage of national security news, so let's dive in.

I want to start on Tuesday, which is when President Trump posted a black and white video, a grainy video.

It showed a small motorboat obliterated by what President Trump said was a strike from the U.S.

Navy.

In that boat, he said, was a big Venezuelan drug shipment.

He said 11 people were in the boat.

They were all killed.

Tom Bowman, tensions between the U.S.

and Venezuela were already high.

Now they are really high.

No, very high.

And, you know, that's pretty much Mary Louise all we know about this.

We don't know, you know, what kind of drugs are on board.

Were these people actually narco-terrorists?

Where did they come from?

And I talked to a couple of sources.

Because it's all blown up.

Exactly.

It just blew it out of the water.

I talked to a couple of sources on Capitol Hill, one in the Senate, one in the House.

They have not been briefed on this yet, which is highly unusual.

And they also raised the question, what was the legal authority for doing this?

Because generally, if you suspect a vessel having drugs on it, the Coast Guard shows up, they communicate with the crew, and if the boat takes off, they can shoot one across the bow, or they can just disable the engine.

They could just shoot a.50 caliber round right through the engine block and stop it dead in the water.

In this case, you know, Secretary of State Marco Rubio said we could have stopped it, but the president said, blow it up.

And as we see in the video, it's just a big flash, and that boat is gone.

And it'll happen again.

Maybe it's happening right now.

I don't know.

But the point is.

Yeah, this was, we'll note that Marco Rubio has been traveling in Latin America this week.

Not in Venezuela, but he did, as you say, he weighed in on this boat attack from Mexico City.

I just want to play a little bit of it because he did answer that question on my mind.

Why didn't they just search the boat?

Why did they have to blow it up?

Let's listen.

The United States has long, for many, many years,

established intelligence that allows us to interdict and stop drug boats.

So, the same information and the same intelligence mechanisms with maybe a higher focus was used to determine that a drug boat was headed towards eventually the United States.

Using the same intelligence mechanisms with maybe a higher focus.

Do we have any idea what that means?

Well, we don't.

It could be satellites keeping an eye on some of the ports here.

It could be human intelligence with these guys loading the boat.

And it could be voice intercepts, communications intercepts, as you know, covering the intelligence community.

They're pretty easy to gather.

It would tell you what they're doing, what they're talking about.

But the big thing is: okay, if that's the case, why don't you share it with the public?

And you sure as hell should share it with Congress.

That has not happened.

This is what people in Congress are telling you.

Right.

So I was talking to this U.S.

official I've known for years.

It's like, come on, man, why don't you give us some information on what's going on?

And he's privy to kind of the way ahead on this.

And he said, get this.

This is a new way ahead and he said he likened it to fighting the Houthis in Yemen he said this is not going to end anytime soon and I said wait a minute the Houthis in Yemen you're hitting land sites you're hitting radar facilities headquarters you guys aren't going to shoot on the land in Venezuela are you he wouldn't answer but he said this will continue this is the new normal he said Anthony Kuhn, hop in on this.

You're watching all this from a different continent and you're watching, just to recap, you know, this boat destroyed by the U.S.

Navy.

Meanwhile, I'm sure you're also tracking the armed National Guard troops patrolling the streets here in Washington, D.C.

We're hearing from President Trump

more

about the idea of sending troops to other cities.

He's floated Chicago.

This week he added New Orleans maybe to the list of where he may want to send federal troops.

From your perch there in Asia, what does this look like?

What are people telling you?

Is it military might, military theater?

What?

Well, China's kept pretty quiet quiet on this, but I have an idea of what they're thinking, and that is that it reminds them of gunboat diplomacy of the sort that imperialist powers used on China in the late 19th century.

At the same time, this has a big connection with them, and that is that the U.S.

has indicated that it could use the military to go after drug production such as fentanyl, including in Mexico.

And the precursors, the ingredients for that come from China.

And of course, the U.S.

has levied tariffs on China that are related to that fentanyl.

Yeah, just to spell some of this out, this is the Trump administration, which for a while now has said, look, a lot of the illegal drugs that come into the U.S.

come from China.

They've pointed to fentanyl.

As you just noted, they've used fentanyl to justify tariffs.

Tom Bowman.

Well, first of all, this boat that they blew up, the drugs on board were likely cocaine, which comes from Colombia through Venezuela and then on into the Caribbean to the United States.

Now, if that's the the case, why are you going after cocaine, which is, you know, obviously huge amounts going through the Caribbean?

If you're going after fentanyl, it doesn't come in in this route.

It comes in through Mexico on Chinese ships, either the fentanyl or the precursor chemicals.

I was talking to an administration official earlier this year, and he said, one of the things we're talking about, work with the Mexicans at the docks.

Now, we don't know if they're doing that.

It would make a lot of sense.

A lot more sense in blowing up this fast boat in the Caribbean.

One thing we do know, just to round out this portion of our discussion, the Trump administration has been increasingly confrontational toward Venezuela, this week being the latest manifestation.

They accused President Nicolas Maduro of Venezuela of leading a drug cartel.

They just doubled the bounty on his head to $50 million,

with now multiple warships, U.S.

warships deployed.

The Pentagon has confirmed

eight warships,

How worried should Caracas be?

Well, I don't think they'll probably invade Venezuela.

They're clearly putting a lot more pressure on Maduro.

There was an indictment against him five years ago during the first Trump administration.

He denies any involvement in the narco-terrorism world.

Are you hearing, though, as you walk Pentagon hallways, any idea of what those warships are doing?

Is it just a show of force?

Yeah, pretty much a show of force.

And also, you don't need eight warships, including three destroyers, to take out a small motorboat.

You could do that with a Coast Guard.

So, yeah, clearly, a lot of this is a show of force.

Frankly, just like the National Guard on the streets of Washington, D.C., it's a show of force.

What do those guys know about police force?

It doesn't mean it's not effective.

Correct.

It's also good pictures.

This message comes from Schwab.

Everyone has moments when they could have done better, like cutting their own hair or forgetting sunscreen, so now you look like a tomato.

Same goes for where you invest.

Level up and invest smarter with Schwab.

Get market insights, education, and human help when you need it.

Learn more at Schwab.com.

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Sutter Health.

From life-changing transplants to high blood pressure care, Sutter's team of doctors, surgeons, and nurses never miss a beat.

And with cardiac specialty centers located in the community, patients can find personalized heart care that's close to home.

Learn more at Sutterhealth.org.

This message comes from Jerry.

Are you tired of your car insurance rate going up even with a clean driving record?

That's why there's Jerry, your proactive insurance assistant.

Jerry compares rates side by side from over 50 top insurers and helps you switch with ease.

Jerry even tracks market rates and alerts you when it's best to shop.

No spam calls, no hidden fees.

Drivers who save with Jerry could save over $1,300 a year.

Switch with confidence.

Download the Jerry app or visit jerry.ai/slash npr today.

Support for NPR and the following message come from the Pew Charitable Trusts, sharing about the state of housing in America on the After the Fact podcast.

Available at pewtrusts.org/slash after the fact.

Moving on now to Beijing, where Anthony, we witnessed some history this week.

China's President Xi Jinping, Russia's President Vladimir Putin, and North Korean leader Kim Jong-un,

with a couple of dozen other world leaders, were all there watching thousands of soldiers goose-stepping through Tiananmen Square, this huge military parade.

It was officially to commemorate the 80th anniversary of the end of World War II, the defeat of Imperial Japan.

But it sent a lot of signals that are a lot more contemporary than that.

Anthony, unpack the significance for us.

So there is a military message and there was a political message.

The military message

was that they have some serious new weaponry, and chief among those were some new ICBMs that can hit anywhere in the continental U.S.

and that are part of a bigger expansion that includes building new missile silo fields in China and also tripling the stockpile of their nuclear warheads.

There were also new high-tech gadgets such as directed energy weapons or lasers, AI drones.

Now these things, the U.S.

and China may both say they have them first, but they're all sort of emerging technologies, all not completely deployed or proven yet.

So that's unclear.

And for those who haven't seen the video, I will note, Anthony, when you say they were rolling them out this week, they were literally rolling them on these giant flatbed trucks down the streets.

Tom Boomin, did the Pentagon, did the U.S.

military know China has all this stuff?

Was there any huge revelation?

Oh, sure.

No, no, they know.

And China, in some respects, is moving ahead of the U.S.

on some of these armaments, like hypersonic missiles, which can go five times the speed of sound.

They have them.

The U.S.

is going to deploy them later this year.

So that's a concern for the U.S.

in particular.

Also, with cyber, with robotics, some space assets, the Chinese are either on par or moving ahead.

I'll note too that one of the concerns China has is the U.S.

working with other countries in the region.

Training bases and exercises with Filipino troops, with Australian troops.

Singapore is quietly working with the U.S.

Even Vietnam.

is closer to the U.S.

So people tell me, listen, the U.S.

has allies, China has customers.

Tom, you know, we brought this up before, that the U.S.

feels it's a generation or multiple generations ahead of China in terms of certain technology, but you can't discount other factors like distance, like willingness to absorb costs and casualties, and asymmetrical approaches that sort of, you know, nullify technological advantages, right?

Spell out what you mean with some of that when you talk about distance.

The home field advantage that China enjoys in its own backyard, where the U.S.

is deploying a lot of military hardware, positioning missiles around China.

But what China does is called anti-access and area denial, and that means using their weapons to make it impossible for America to get to the fight.

No, that's absolutely a big part of this also.

And here's the thing.

If China ever goes to war with the United States, and people think that's unlikely, they're not even sure if they're going to try to take Taiwan.

They'll have a capability in two years.

If you really want to go after your enemy in this day and age, you blind them.

You take out their satellites.

That's something that I think the U.S.

is going to focus on more and sending more troops over to the region.

And you're absolutely right.

There's a tyranny of distance, getting the U.S.

forces there.

But U.S.

officials say to me also, listen, China might have a huge army.

They might have more ships.

They haven't fought.

a battle since 1979 and they got their heads kicked in by Vietnam, a border battle.

It's one thing to have a lot of really good hardware.

What happens when the bullets start flying?

Can you fight?

Just one more on hardware before we move on from the whole spectacle on Tiananmen Square this week.

How did it measure up to the big military parade here in Washington this summer that President Trump, it was on his actual birthday, he was excited about it.

Tom Bowman, you were reporting on that.

It was completely different.

Now, they sent tanks and Bradley fighting vehicles down the streets in Washington.

I'm told President Trump was kind of upset.

He wanted something that looked like the Chinese parade, where they're all squared away.

They're all the same height.

They're all the same.

There was no goose stepping here.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Apparently, he was upset because, you know, they were waving at the crowd.

They didn't look mean and tough like the Chinese or the Russians do.

Too relaxed.

Right, so relaxed.

And people tell me, Tom, we don't put on shows.

We fight.

Okay, so let's go to the big, the big symbolism or the message that may have been intended here, Anthony, because

I was

struck by something from President Xi's, I think it was his opening speech,

where he said,

humanity again has to choose between peace and war, dialogue and confrontation,

win-win cooperation, or zero-sum game.

That's President Xi of China apparently making the case that China is the peace, dialogue, and cooperation side of this equation.

Yes, that's right.

I mean, that's his message that, you know, China is supposed to be learning the lessons of World War II.

You know, you can't have these law of the jungle and zero-sum games.

People have got to cooperate.

Well, that's a great message, but look at the people around him.

Not just Russia and North Korea, but Iran and Belarus and Vietnam and Cuba and basically a lot of authoritarian nations.

But basically, Xi's message is that we are entering a new global order in which the West is declining and China and the countries there at the parade, including Russia and North Korea, are on the ascent.

And he says that this process is accelerating with

the populism that is besetting Western democracies and all.

These three men did not need to sit down for a meeting because just the image of the three of them, Kim, Putin, and Xi, standing up there, was as effective a message as they could send.

And they're basically putting out the message of stability and predictability as opposed to chaos with the Trump administration, unpredictability.

Again, getting back to the tariffs, sticking it to your allies with tariffs.

He's trying to portray them as this is the new way forward.

This message comes from LPL Financial.

What if you could have more control over your future?

LPL Financial removes the things holding you back and provides the services to push you forward.

Because when it comes to your finances, your business, your future, LPL Financial believes the only question should be, what if you could?

LPL Financial, member FINRA SIPC, no strategy assures success or protects against loss.

Investing involves risk, including possible loss of principal.

Support for this podcast and the following message come from strawberry.me.

Be honest, are you happy with your job?

Are you stuck in a job you've outgrown or never wanted in the first place?

Are your reasons for staying really just excuses for not leaving?

Let a career coach from strawberry.me help you get unstuck.

Discover the benefits of having a dedicated career coach in your corner and claim a special offer at strawberry.me slash npr

this message comes from visit St.

Pete Clearwater, Florida.

Visitors can unwind on 35 miles of white sand beaches along the Emerald Gulf and find a variety of open-air dining options, including restaurants recognized by the Michelin Guide.

Learn more at visits.com.

This message comes from Mint Mobile.

Mint Mobile took what's wrong with wireless and made it right.

They offer premium wireless plans for less, and all plans include high-speed data, unlimited talk and text, and nationwide coverage.

See for yourself at mintmobile.com/slash switch.

Okay, as we wrap the show, a quick note that you can email us at sourcesandmethods at npr.org.

That is sources and methods, all spelled out, no spaces, and that link is in our episode notes.

We would love to hear your feedback, your ideas for what we should be talking about, your reaction to anything you hear us talking about here.

And with thanks to those who have already written to us in these first couple of weeks of the show, we thought we would share a note or two.

Among the many of you who've written, we heard from Jonathan.

He wrote that he is a former Air Force Intelligence Coordinator and said, I missed the Department of War story and the fire hose of this week.

Great work.

Well, thank you, Jonathan.

He was referring to a story that I mentioned last week that President Trump thinks he would like to rename the Department of Defense, the Department of War.

Tom Bowman, just quickly, any movement on that this week or is this a freedom?

We have not heard anything about that yet.

I would not be surprised.

It would be highly unusual.

The Department of War, by the way, when they created it, it was only about the Army.

And then they created a Department of the Navy.

One of the reasons they put together the Department of Defense was it embraced all of the services, including the new Air Force and the National Security Act of 1947.

Well, this brings me to the next letter I wanted to share.

This was we heard from Peter, who is at the Ohio State University.

He wrote us and said, yes, President Truman oversaw changing the name from Department of War to Department of Defense.

That was indeed the National Security Act of 1947 that did it.

And it also established the CIA, the National Security Council.

And Peter wrote us the reason was, and I'm quoting him, to centralize security and intelligence to avoid future calamities on the scale of Pearl Harbor and to safeguard the country against rising communist influence.

So Peter, thank you.

Tom Bowman, thank you for the history lesson this week.

That brings us to the end of our show and to my favorite part of the show, if I'm allowed to say that, our regular segment, OSINT.

That OSINT is open source intelligence, meaning it's out there, it's in the open, it's valuable information that is publicly available to one and all, but that you might miss if you are not looking for it.

Anthony, anything you want to offer up this week?

Sure, a little visual detail from China's military parade.

So I've been to a lot of these things, and one area of continuity I saw was this.

If you look at Xi Jinping's limousine as he goes down through Tiananmen Square with his head sticking out of the vehicle, reviewing the troops, you notice there's an empty limousine behind him.

And these limousines are made by China's own factory.

They're called red flag limousines, and they started making them shortly after the revolution.

And I once spoke to an engineer who made these things, and he said, you know, this is really embarrassing.

These are Chinese-made things, and they have to have this empty limousine as a backup in case the thing breaks down in the middle of the street.

Oh, I thought you were going to tell me it was a decoy.

It's in case the first one

breaks down.

Yes, even though it's China's homemade limousine, inside that thing are engines made by Chrysler and Nissan and Audi.

A little embarrassing.

And yes, there is also a security element involved, but it's a slightly embarrassing holdover for the automotive engineers.

There you go.

Tom Bowman, can you top it?

Well, I was having a couple of pints with two sources of mine, my favorite way to talk with sources, one from the State Department.

And he said, as we all know, VOA has been gutted, the voice of America, right?

So, as a result, all these broadcast licenses around the world are open.

And this guy told me that in the island nation off the west coast of Africa, it's São Tomé and Príncipe,

their licenses, these radio licenses, are up for grabs because VOA basically said we don't need these anymore.

Guess who is interested in picking them up?

I have the feeling you're about to tie together this whole episode.

Are we back to China?

We are indeed.

What's in your pint glass, by the way?

Are you a lager guy?

No.

No.

IPA.

IPA.

All the way.

Well, I can top you.

So my OSINT involves me drinking champagne here in Washington last night.

The hot ticket party was headlined by British politician and MP Nigel Farage.

He was in town, among other things.

He was on Capitol Hill, but last night he was headlining a launch party to open the DC Bureau of GB News.

This is a conservative news outlet, upstart news channel in Britain.

So they had a few hundred people, journalists, politicians, quite a few members of the Trump cabinet, to a private club down the block from the White House.

Farage was holding court himself in this bright blue suit.

He had just tweeted out a picture of himself with Donald Trump in the Oval Office, same suit.

I was there, I was working, I went to ask Nigel Farage for an interview, asked him for it.

I am interested, among other things, in his immigration policies and how the immigration debate in Britain tracks or does not track the conversation here.

So, Nigel, Nigel Farage, if if you're listening, I hope you will take our questions.

We're going to take this podcast to London in a couple of weeks because President Trump is going over there to make his second state visit and we'll be hoping to bring you a lot of voices.

From that, that is it for today's episode of Sources and Methods, Anthony Q and Tom Bowman.

Thank you so much for being here.

You're welcome.

Thank you, Mary Louise.

Before we go, a plug for NPR Plus.

NPR Plus supporters hear every episode without sponsor messages, which means more national security news, more NATSEC analysis in less time.

And you get to unlock access to our complete archive, which means the four most recent episodes of this show will always be free and available.

After that, they go into our archive where our supporters can hear them anytime.

So sign up for NPR Plus.

You get a lot more perks at plus.npr.org.

That link is in our episode notes.

We are back.

Next Thursday, we'll have another new episode for you.

I'm I'm Mary Louise Kelly.

Thanks for listening to sources and methods from NPR.

This message comes from Bombus.

You need better socks and slippers and underwear because you should love what you wear every day.

One purchased equals one donated.

Go to bombus.com slash npr and use code NPR for 20% off.

This message comes from NPR sponsor Rosetta Stone, an expert in language learning for 30 years.

Right now, NPR listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership to 25 different languages for 50% off.

Learn more at rosettastone.com/slash NPR.

This message comes from Mint Mobile.

If you're tired of spending hundreds on big wireless bills, bogus fees, and free perks, Mint Mobile might be right for you with plans starting from $15 a month.

Shop plans today at mintmobile.com/slash switch.

Upfront payment of $45 for three-month 5-gigabyte plan required.

New customer offer for first three months only.

Then, full price plan options available.

Taxes and fees extra.

See Mint Mobile for details.