Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power

This episode of the Oprah Podcast is presented by Lily.

Well, hey there.

Glad you're here with me on the Oprah Podcast.

My guest today is the former Prime Minister of New Zealand, the Right Honorable Dame Jacinda Ardern.

And when she was only 37 years old, she made history as the youngest female head of state in the entire world.

That means on the planet Earth.

But what truly set her apart was her mission to lead with kindness.

If I could distill it down into one concept that we are pursuing in New Zealand, it is simple and it is this.

Kindness.

Her first memoir is now available and it's called a different kind of power.

And I highly recommend it for anybody who's thinking about leadership in your own life or been through challenging times or just living and being able to live at the utmost best, even in the crises of your life.

It's a different kind of power and being able to tap into that power is what this book is all about.

And also the new documentary, Prime Minister, which is so revelatory and really a thrill to watch.

How do we shine a light on the humanity that I know is still there and amongst everything else?

The documentary will be released exclusively in theaters on June 13th, just a week from now as we're speaking.

Jacinda, Ardarn, welcome.

Thank you.

What a pleasure to be here.

It is such an honor to have you here.

Oh, the treat is all mine.

Thank you.

Well, I have to tell you, I had the,

I don't even know what you call it, my first experience in New Zealand.

I was filming a movie called Wrinkle in Time, and we shot it in New Zealand.

And I wanted to go just because it was being filmed in New Zealand.

And I have never experienced a world like that.

It's like you're driving along and you turn a corner and you're like,

oh my gosh, everything is, everything is breathtaking.

It is.

It is genuinely a breathtaking place

and with beautiful people too.

Just really beautiful, wonderful people.

And what do you love most about being from New Zealand?

The people.

I do think the people, you know, and that is something that I've missed since I've been away.

But you can still spot a New Zealander when you're out in the world often.

You know, little things.

I'll be walking through an airport.

Recently, I saw someone walk past me with

a piece of greenstone, Ponamu, around their neck.

And I just yelled, Kia ora, and then you just hear a Kia ora ring out back in response.

You know, wherever you are in the world, there's that affinity because you come from such a special place.

And everybody knows it.

Everybody knows it.

I did since when I was there, that everybody knows that it is.

And I think appreciate it.

And

for the most part, cares for it as well.

And you would have seen the natural beauty.

We feel

lucky to have that.

Well, and that you have more sheep sheep than people, too.

And cows.

And cows.

Let's not forget.

But I remember seeing recently that you had planned or at least wanted to hike in New Zealand to mark your visit.

I'm still planning on it.

But you said you couldn't find anyone to hike with.

There are five million people who would be willing to hike with you.

Who would be willing to hike with you?

I know.

That is still on my plan.

Please come back.

Yes.

It's a great place to hike.

Do you miss it?

I do.

Being in Boston?

I do.

I miss the people.

I miss the place.

But it'll always be home and I'll be back.

And you'll be back.

Well, I just, well, first of all, I, over the years, have loved book titles.

I love first lines of book.

I love titles.

And I think this is such a powerful title, a different kind of power.

How did you come to it?

And what was the inspiration?

It was a real process.

I don't know whether I'm meant to share.

the iterative process.

You know, I remember one of the early titles I floated with the publisher was Run.

It was just

and they said to me, but it might convey that people should, you know, turn their back on challenging opportunities.

And I said, well, that's, that's part of the appeal for me because actually my first instinct when faced with really, you know, huge responsibility was run.

But actually, I also wanted it to be a call to action, you know, to push through that, to take on the opportunity to run for elected office or whatever might come your way.

But in the end, decided it might be misconstrued as a jogging book.

And so we instead

landed with this.

And for me, I think a different kind of power,

I think I could go as far back as to say I really grew up with a series of character traits that over the years I believed were weaknesses.

Things that I thought would hold me back in life, you know, a lack of confidence being a significant one.

Which is so shocking when I read this,

you had that thing that I'm still trying to understand and I certainly am trying to understand why you have imposter syndrome.

Yeah.

You know, I was 14 years old when someone first used the term imposter syndrome

and it was just like something clicked.

Suddenly I had words to describe how I'd felt for every speech competition I did or any challenge where I just had a bit of a seed of doubt and a fear that something might expose that I shouldn't be there.

I think a lot of people have it.

I think it's a good idea.

I know a lot of people do it.

But we don't talk about it because we have that fear that if you are to articulate it, that that will be a sign of weakness, that people will lack confidence in you.

You say this about your younger self.

My whole short life, I had grappled with the idea that I was never quite good enough.

Why do you think you felt that way?

I struggle to pinpoint the origin of it.

It certainly was.

I mean, mean, I had the most encouraging family.

Yes.

I had wonderful teachers.

Not just encouraging family.

I love the fact that you had a father who's a policeman who cared about people and he believed that to fix crime that you had to understand why the crime was happening, which is highly unusual, I would think, for a lot of police officers.

Incredible role models.

Incredible role models.

And so this, you know, when I think back, what was the source of this confidence gap?

I couldn't tell you.

I think that a number of people people who have talked about it often might say the same thing.

It's something they identify quite early on and they can't tell you its origin, but I notice it in our young people.

And I remember as a young member of parliament going in to give a speech about leadership to a group of young women, they were aged from probably about 13 to 15.

And I went through an exercise with them where I said, I want you to write down your dream occupation, the thing that you, if you could do anything, would love to do with your life.

And they diligently, I saw them all thinking for a moment, writing it down.

And then I said to them, now I want you to write down what you think you'll do.

And you know, in a way, it was a trick question.

I thought that they'd be confused by it.

I thought they'd write the same thing twice.

Nope.

Straight away, pens were picked up and they wrote down what they believed.

And I asked a handful of them, okay, tell me your dream job.

And one girl.

said to me, I'd like to be a doctor.

And I said, that's wonderful.

And what do you think you'll be?

Without skipping a bead.

Oh, I'll be probably a travel agent.

You know, these two vastly different occupations.

And I asked her, why do you think that you'll be a travel agent?

She said, I just think someone else will be better at being a doctor than I will be.

And here we are.

I mean, this young woman, what is it in her life at that early stage had given her?

that mindset, but it was there.

And so

I do think there are more people than we know.

I think that there are more.

but I also think

that you don't become what you want or what you desire.

You actually become what you believe.

So you lean into the thing that you most believe,

which if it is being a travel agent, that's what you end up pursuing and not the thing that you

would aspire to because you're going to lean to the thing that you most believe is possible.

And perhaps this is one of the reasons why I feel so motivated to talk about and to articulate and to say out loud the thing that I think some people just don't, which is, yeah, I've had a confidence gap my whole life, still do.

It's not something I think you can magically disappear or press away.

I'm only, I'm bringing it up because you bring it up in the book, obviously.

And I'm also bringing it up because I have been such an admirer of yours across the sea all this time.

And I just stood in awe.

of your leadership.

Now I know what was going on behind the scenes, but I just stood in awe of your ability to stand in such grace and such power that seemed to be coming from not out here, not from what everybody expected or wanted you to say, but there was an inner strength and an inner knowingness

that came from a sense of wisdom I saw in you.

So then when I read that

all this time you were suffering, I'm like, how could that be true?

So when you became prime minister in 2017, you said that you planned on using kindness

as your guiding principle.

In the face of isolationism, protectionism, racism, the simple concept of looking outwardly and beyond ourselves, of kindness and collectivism, might just be as good a starting point as any.

You say kindness has a power.

What do you think that power is?

And a strength that almost nothing else on this planet has.

Well,

you mentioned earlier

my father, you know, and actually both my parents were incredible role models.

And in the process of writing about childhood, one of the things that came through to me clearly, which I already knew to be true, was how influential their example was to me.

My father was a policeman for 40 years before retiring.

And there were so many times when I saw him policing in the community.

But we lived in a very small town for a time.

And so I got to see close up him at work.

And he always had, I think, that approach to policing, that he he was a member of a community first and foremost.

And if he was going to police successfully, he needed to build trust.

And to build trust, he needed to try and bring dignity to the work that he did.

I remember one day, I was only little, I probably would have been maybe six or seven.

And to get into, to walk into the little township, which I'd do every so often, to go and get a bag of lollies or something, I would cut through the car park of the police station.

And I remember coming through one day and seeing my dad surrounded by what in reflection I know were gang members.

And I knew enough to know that it looked like a pretty bad situation.

And my dad clocked me and he told me to just keep walking.

And

so off I went, but then worrying the entire time about how my dad got out of that situation.

That night I asked him about it, thinking that because he was so outnumbered, that he must have had to have used force in some way.

And he looked so disappointed at my assumption.

And I remember him saying to me, the greatest tool that I have will always be my words.

You know, and so he was someone who modeled, role modeled, I think, to me, as did my mother,

the importance of communication, the importance of empathy, the importance of kindness, even in such a difficult job like policing.

And so I think that was probably some of the earliest examples for me of how there can be a strength and a power to kindness and empathy, which we often forget in leadership.

I am so glad you're here for this very special episode of the Oprah Podcast with former Prime Minister of New Zealand, Dame Jacinda Ardern.

Coming up, I ask her to take us back to the moment she found out she won her historic election at just 37 years old, becoming the youngest female head of state in the world.

It was also the same moment she found out she was pregnant.

We're going to find out what was going on inside her head as she managed to lead a country with a baby in her arms, arms, a story that made international headlines.

All of you moms will appreciate this coming up.

Stay with us.

If you're an adult struggling with obesity, struggled for years and years, you're not alone.

But Zepbound Terzepatide is changing what's possible when it comes to weight loss along with diet and exercise.

Proven to help lose weight and keep it off, Zeppbound is a prescription medicine for adults with obesity or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems.

Zeppbound should be used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity.

Zeppbound injection is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligrams per 0.5 milliliters in single-dose pen or single-dose file.

Don't use with other trisepatide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines.

It is not known if Zeppbound can be used in children.

Don't take Zeppbound if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer or multiple undercarneoplasia syndrome type 2.

Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck.

Stop Zeppbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction.

Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems.

Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes, depression, or suicidal thoughts.

Before scheduled procedures with anesthesia, if you're nursing pregnant, planned to be or taking birth control pills.

Taking Zepbound with a Sephonaluria or insulin may cause low blood sugar.

Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems.

Discover the weight loss you could be bound for.

Ask your healthcare provider about Zepbound or call 1-800-545-5979.

Explore savings options regardless of insurance status at saveonzeppbound.com.

Terms and conditions apply.

Now back to the episode.

Welcome back to the Oprah podcast.

It means the world to me that you take the time out of your day for my first ever conversation with former Prime Minister of New Zealand, the Right Honorable Dame Jacinda Ardern.

I've wanted to sit down and talk with her for so many years.

I've admired her.

We're discussing her new memoir, A Different Kind of Power.

I love that title and the new documentary called Prime Minister, which is a deeply personal look inside her life while she was in office.

At 37 years old.

Wow.

She became the youngest female head of state in the world and a mother at the exact same time.

Double wow.

Let's get back to our conversation.

So was it after you stepped into the role of prime minister or before that you'd made a decision that I'm going to do this differently than I've ever seen anybody else do it?

Because nobody, even if they were trying to do it a little bit, ever announced that that kindness is going to be my principle.

Before, before, I might not have always articulated it as kindness.

You know, at first, I think when I went into politics, you know, the cut and thrust was always the bit that I struggled with.

You know, we have a Westminster system in New Zealand, so it can be quite aggressive.

It can be a bit of a bear pit.

And I remember feeling that actually as a thin-skinned, sensitive person, it was a hard place to be.

And so originally I thought, well, to survive here, I have to toughen up.

But there was a politician who rightly pointed out to me that actually being sensitive is a form of empathy.

And that actually can be a kind of power.

A different kind of power.

A different kind of power.

A strength, not a weakness.

Yes.

And so I made a decision that, okay, then

that was something I was going to hang on to.

And it might not make me a successful politician.

Because if our markers of success in politics or in leadership are, you know, to be overly confident or to bring ego or to be brash, then maybe I wouldn't succeed, but that's okay.

That's why it's so unusual to me that you are and have been such a strong leader, and particularly in the arena of politics, because I think it requires, in general, and also specifics, we can look at different people in the world, various leaders in the world, it requires a pretty huge ego to do it.

Wouldn't you say?

Well, certainly that seems to be, I think, the assumption we have.

And yet, I think people would also agree that politics is a hard place to be.

It is a hard place to be.

And so, for the most part, my experience, at least in New Zealand, was that for the most part, even when you're on different sides of

the house, for the most part, people are usually motivated to improve the place they live in, to improve the lives of the people around them.

They often just have very different ideas of what that looks like.

How they're going to go about doing it.

And, you know,

the thing that I think increasingly turns people off politics is the way that it's seen in

the public domain is that people don't have their eyes on improving people's lives.

They're in the politics.

They're in the politics.

But my experience is that often people sacrifice a lot to be there.

And most of the time, most of the time, it's for the right reasons.

Okay, so in a different kind of power, you let us in to your

internal monologue.

Yes.

Into your internal monologue.

can you take us back to the eve of winning the election and you take that pregnancy test yes and that little pink line shows up can you take us back to that extraordinary moment what was going on well it was a it was it was an extraordinary moment in a string of extraordinary moments so i was the we'd been in opposition for nine years so we had not been in government for a long time and so it's pretty soul-destroying to be in that situation your Your party, your party.

Your party.

And so I was the deputy leader.

Now in New Zealand, being deputy leader does not mean you are the next in line.

It means actually probably you're not too threatening.

Yes.

You're there as a support person to the leader.

Which is where you'd always wanted to be anyway.

You were behind the scenes.

I thought I was much better suited to a role like that.

But even then I found that challenging.

We're seven weeks out from the election and one day my boss and I, we receive poll numbers that say we're heading south.

Things are not looking good.

And, you know, my leader muses aloud to me, maybe I should step down.

And, you know, the panic alarm rings for me in my head.

The idea that he's contemplating departure seven weeks out from an election.

Well, I actually respect that.

Well, I respect that he had that thought process.

I did not appreciate that.

I respect that he had the self-awareness.

Absolutely.

I did not appreciate that he looked at me

as the possible replacement.

A week after that conversation, he came to work one day, he quit, and he nominated me.

And so I then found myself in the position of leading the party into an election.

You knew you were going to be nominated, though, right?

I had a sense that he'd suggested that if anyone was going to take over, that he thought it should be me.

I thought it absolutely.

And you had said, and you had done interviews saying clearly not.

I'm not the one who's running.

Absolutely not.

Yes.

And I meant it.

So you didn't want it.

I did not.

Yes.

I did not.

But there's always, you know, I think everyone can identify with that idea that sometimes you can have these dueling,

you know, these dueling sentiments, these dueling values.

The idea on the one hand, that lack of confidence, on the other, a sense of responsibility.

And so the moment came that he said, well,

I'm nominating you, and I believe you need to step up.

It was just time for the sense of responsibility.

And you were 37.

I was 37.

Yeah.

Wow.

And then

the election.

In New Zealand, we have a system a little bit similar to Germany.

You don't always know on election night who has the numbers to form a government.

So on election night, it was not clear-cut.

There was one small party that held the balance of power, and they decided they would negotiate with both us and one other party.

So we're in the middle of those negotiations.

When I start feeling a little off,

had you missed your period?

Well, there was one of the, obviously there's a number of things that suggest maybe you should think about taking a test.

I don't remember at the time them being large red flags for me,

any large red flags, just feeling a bit off is how I would describe it.

And a friend of mine suggested I take a test.

And so in the middle of negotiations to find out I would be, whether I would be prime minister, I first found out I was pregnant.

So.

and you thought what

I thought you could not write this

until you did.

So it I talk a lot more about you know how that was a bit of a surprise because

having a child had been something we had thought about but it did not come easy to me.

And so it was

just when it was going to be the most challenging.

Yeah.

Yes.

I love

the way the universe sets you up that way.

I didn't know if I loved the universe universe in that moment.

I think I have probably natural levels of anxiety for someone who's 37 years old and 10 weeks ago did not anticipate being in this position.

And who's also pregnant?

Well, reading this part of the book, you flying all over the place.

I mean, just imagine going to meetings.

With your breast pumps, you're in the back of the car with your breast pumps

tucked under your blouse.

I mean, it's like you were superwoman pumping and speaking and having meetings and making decisions.

Yeah,

at the time.

Because you were determined that you were going to breastfeed.

I was determined.

I was determined.

And now looking back on it, I see there were lots of reasons why I was determined.

I think I saw it as a part, a series of many tests, the tests of motherhood, you know, the test to prove that I was doing what I was meant to do.

And, but it was, it was hard and it didn't come easy for me.

And The stress setting didn't come easy.

Yeah, it didn't.

And I think I had this idea in my head that eventually it's just meant to work.

But it wasn't like that.

And I think it's not like that for a lot of women.

And one of the reasons I wanted to write about it was to just demonstrate that, you know, out there in the images that we present sometimes, it may have looked like I was Wonder Woman.

It may have.

But I would hate that to be the sentiment because,

yes, I was doing a lot and I was carrying a lot, but I had a support network.

I had a village.

I had an incredible partner who traveled, young, now a husband who traveled with me, who was our primary caregiver.

And if anything, I'd like to put the spotlight on that because I don't think we should have an expectation that women do everything.

Right.

We shouldn't set, certainly you did it, but you don't want to set up the expectation that everybody can run around with their pump in the back of the car.

Absolutely.

Yes.

We should have an expectation that there's a village.

And not to mention, not just running around, you know, with the pump in the back of the car, breastfeeding, doing all the things that are required of a world leader, having other people, the naysayers, question whether you should even have the right to be a mother and also be.

I think this is part of the reason.

Yeah, that you...

you want to do it all and not be seen to break a sweat because

you know i I was at that time only the second

leader in the world to give birth an office.

And so I felt a certain amount of pressure to make sure that no one could question that it

impaired my ability to do the job.

Because what would that then say to anyone else?

You know, another leader, another politician.

That we can do this no matter what.

Yeah, so hide the morning sickness,

hide the fact you can't quite walk straight after

birth.

Just

make it look like it is entirely possible to do all of those things.

And with the right support, you can, but it does require support.

Yeah.

I have so much to talk about with former Prime Minister of New Zealand Jacinda Ardern.

Stay with us.

That's all coming up next.

If you're an adult struggling with obesity, struggled for years and years, you're not alone.

But Zepbound Terzepatide is changing what's possible when it comes to weight loss, along with diet and exercise.

Proven to help lose weight and keep it off, Zeppbound is a prescription medicine for adults with obesity or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems.

Zeppbound should be used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity.

Zeppbound injection is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligrams per 0.5 milliliters in single-dose pen or single-dose vial.

Don't use with other trzepatide containing products or any GLP one receptor agonist medicines.

It is not known if Zeppbound can be used in children.

Don't take Zeppbound if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer or multiple undercroneoplasia syndrome type 2.

Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck.

Stop Zeppbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction.

Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems.

Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes, depression, or suicidal thoughts.

Before scheduled procedures with anesthesia, if you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be or taking birth control pills.

Taking Zeppbound with a safonylurrra or insulin may cause low blood sugar.

Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems.

Discover the weight loss you could be bound for.

Ask your healthcare provider about Zepbound or call 1-800-545-5979.

Explore savings options regardless of insurance status at saveonzeppbound.com.

Terms and conditions apply.

Now back to the episode.

Welcome back, listener.

I am so grateful that you're here for this deeply personal conversation with Jacinda Ardern, who's looking back at her time as Prime Minister of New Zealand.

You know, I have always admired the way she led her country with courage and kindness.

And I'm honored to finally sit down with her.

She's talking about her new book, A Different Kind of Power, and a new documentary called Prime Minister.

And then you made history in, I think it was 2018 when you brought Niamh to the United Nations in New York.

It was the first time in history a baby was brought to the floor of the UN General Assembly and the photos were seen all over the world.

And you came out of that experience with a powerful powerful message for women.

First of all, that that was a different kind of power to be able to bring your baby to the United Nations.

And I didn't, I don't even, I don't particularly remember thinking about the magnitude of that moment.

You know, for me, it was just pure logistics.

Manive was four months old.

I was still breastfeeding.

She had to come with me.

And actually the moment when she was photographed, I mean, you can tell that we're not aware we're being photographed.

That is one of the more presentable photos of me

because we're in the floor.

It was at an event to mark the legacy of Nelson Mandela.

And so

the entire floor was not full at that time.

And so I didn't, the press, you couldn't see.

I could just hear the clicking, click, click, click, click, click, click.

I did not think they were aimed on us.

And so, again, I think it was just a moment where you were getting on with what was required.

And then afterwards,

afterwards was the moment that I thought, well, I guess guess that was a historic moment and if there's any message I want people to take it's that that there I am with my partner behind me is the person who made sure that we had a bassinet for Neve and a place to be in between time my foreign policy advisor she covered us so that we could go to the the president's reception you know I had a I had a team and how lucky was I so when you came out of that your message was both spoken and unspoken yeah yeah and the essence essence of that message was what?

Yes, you can do it all, but don't do it alone.

Don't expect to do it alone.

Wonder Woman needed a sidekick, deserves a sidekick too.

That's so powerful.

That's so correct.

Yes, you can do it all, but don't expect it to do it alone.

Because I didn't.

That is so clarifying.

And I know how lucky I was.

I was lucky.

And so knowing that, you know, I remember them.

I've always been interested and focused on on child poverty.

And I put a lot of that back to,

you know, observations growing up

as a child.

I had a wonderful childhood, but I observed children who didn't have what I had.

And then becoming a mother and experiencing having a village, I then became focused on what about all those soul parents?

What about all those women who are doing this alone?

How?

How do they do that?

And so extending paid parental leave, increasing government support for parents raising children alone, increasing access to childcare, even giving special leave to women who experience miscarriages.

All of that became part of our agenda.

And that was because as a government we really thought about what it is to be a parent in the world.

It's so interesting because in the book And in the documentary, we see how your now husband Clark really takes on the role of super dad and steps in.

And there's a moment when people are protesting outside and like, where is he?

And what's happened to him?

And you're like, he's raising our child.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But what an amazing example he was for setting, you know, the stage for the world to see.

And I remember, you know, we were very open about the fact that he was going to be the primary caregiver.

And I remember afterwards him sharing with me that he had had a number of

men who would come and almost talk to him behind a closed hand about the fact that they had been the primary caregiver too.

And so the chance to spotlight that, normalize that we will all have different seasons.

And while my season was in office, his season was the opportunity to form this beautiful relationship with our daughter.

And then he'll have a season and then I'll take on different roles.

And for me, that's a beautiful partnership to have.

I love the way in A Different Kind of of Power,

you talk about how

everything in your life prepares you for, you know, stepping into this role, what you've done in the past, and you have your own agenda for things you want to accomplish while you're in office, you know, child poverty, because that's always been important to you, and mental health issues, and all the things you go in.

And then

there's the Christchurch mass shooting.

So all the things you want to accomplish and you are about the business of doing that, nothing prepares you for the horrific experience of this mass shooting.

So, you all recall in 2019, New Zealand experienced the worst mass shooting in its history.

There were 51 people

who were killed at a mosque and

Islamic Center, and your leadership after that tragedy made headlines around the world.

I just, in reading about it, what was going on with you at that time?

I mean, you don't even know how to think about something like that, how to process.

But in that moment, everything that had ever happened to you in your life, imposter or not,

you leaned into the most powerful space and you made decisions and navigated through that in such a way that showed us all what it means to step into your own power.

How were you able to do that?

I think in

leadership sometimes we're presented with this idea that you have to fit a particular mold.

And so often parts of that mold tell you not to show emotion, not to share or show how you're feeling in any given moment.

And, you know, during the aftermath of the shooting, it was almost impossible for...

me not to feel deeply what had happened to our Muslim community in our country.

It just wouldn't have been possible to hide that for me.

And you immediately said, people who chose to be here, this is their country.

Absolutely.

The idea, and because this was the motivation of the person who undertook this attack,

his entire motivation

was to other members of our community.

Because he wanted to...

cause a division within he did.

He wanted to create an internal warfare.

He saw New Zealand as too inclusive,

too welcoming, and particularly in his mind to Muslim communities.

He was not from New Zealand.

He chose New Zealand for that reason.

And he came to our country with the intention to try and cause division.

And

in my mind, I simply reflected in the aftermath the sentiment that I saw and I felt from New Zealanders,

which was first and foremost an overwhelming sense of grief,

anger that someone would come and perpetrate such violence on our Muslim community and an utter rejection of everything he represented.

I have never felt more privileged to lead than I did during that period because I saw ultimately what New Zealanders did in response to that attack and

the response of our Muslim community, which was deeply humbling.

So when people,

particularly members of the Muslim community from around the world, comment on it, I mostly feel sadness.

Shouldn't it be a given that after an experience like that, that you respond with humanity?

And you were talking about the fact that a lot of people from the Muslim community wrote to you saying, thank you.

We appreciate you.

standing with us.

We appreciate you honoring our loved ones who passed.

I mean, you know what?

I just thought

even how you handled

the difficulty of, you know, other people's customs, because the custom of having to bury your dead immediately, and you having to figure out with yourself

and the team, how do we tell this community you're not going to be able to bury your dead right away because this is now a police investigation.

And these were, I mean, incredibly

challenging moments that only I would have understood exactly

the things the community were grappling with had I been there.

And I think one of the things, one of the really important things about empathetic leadership is that you just instinctively feel like you need to be on the ground closest, in closest proximity.

to where the crisis is happening.

So you knew immediately to wrap your head?

No one told me I needed to do that.

No one counseled me.

Often people asked me about that decision.

All I remember thinking was, I'm going into

the community space.

They have just lost an incredible number of their family members and their loved ones.

The least I can do is show respect in that moment.

And so

all I really remember from that moment as I packed from Wellington to get ready to go to Christchurch was calling a friend and asking if she had a scarf I could use.

No one counseled me either way.

It just felt like the least I could do in that moment.

And then there was that famous photograph of you with the scarf.

Yes.

And in the book, I talk a little bit about that moment because whilst a lot of the commentary was about me, when I was photographed, at that time I was listening to one of the most humbling

experiences, which was a leader in the Muslim community who had just watched members of his congregation been

shot, and he thanked New Zealand.

For me, the Muslim community led

a response that humbled everyone.

So, a different kind of power meant that you instinctively knew that the thing to do is to go to the people where the people are hurting.

Absolutely.

And a different kind of power

allowed you to embrace those those people, the community, the Muslim community, in a way as though they were your own people, your own family, your own...

I mean it's like watching you and reading about you doing that.

It's like you were a part of that community at that time.

I think in leadership, particularly in these times,

there's a tendency at least to be provided with advice to avoid unpredictable situations.

And there is often nothing more unpredictable than periods of crisis, but particularly where there's crisis and grief.

Understandably.

But I have to tell you, I mean, when I was watching that on the news, I was so moved by your authenticity and your sincerity because, you know, things happen in the world.

There's a crisis.

There's a shooting.

There's a bombing.

And leaders, they show up.

They do their little drive-through and run-through and have their speech.

But you were in it.

You were in the center of it.

And I think only by being in it, and for me on hindsight, you know, taking a bit of time to reflect, you know, I think the important thing about proximity is it allows you to then understand what's needed.

Empathy is nothing without action.

You were in it with people crying on your shoulders, literally.

In your bosom, yes.

And hearing then in those moments what people needed.

They'd lost, in many cases, their breadwinner.

They may have had in that time,

you know, a lack of sense of security around their ability to continue to reside in New Zealand.

There are a whole range of issues that by having that proximity, you understood.

And true empathy is then actually following through with action.

Now that you've seen it, now that you've heard it, what will you do about it?

We are here just 26 days after the most devastating of terrorist attacks in New Zealand's history.

When I visited the hospitals and the victims, none of them had just one gunshot wound.

In every case they spoke of multiple injuries, multiple debilitating injuries.

I could not fathom how weapons that could cause such destruction and large-scale death could have been obtained legally in this country.

You and your administration reformed New Zealand's gun laws in 10 days.

And in reading the book, I now

can see that you were fueled by

your passion came from being amongst the community and feeling their loss in such a personal and powerful way.

How did you make that happen so quickly?

You know, in my mind, one of the beautiful things about New Zealand and New Zealand is such a pragmatic people.

And every time you see crisis in New Zealand, whether or not it's a you know, a weather event or in this case,

alongside the care and support you see the community provide, there's that, now what can we do?

And that is reflected then in an expectation of leaders, what will you do?

Yeah.

And there were two things.

One was, well, first of all, we know that he was able to take the lives of so many because he had access to military-style semi-automatic weapons, particularly AR-15s.

And then it begged the question, well,

how is he able to get access to those?

And the answer was legally.

And I remember in that briefing, which was only the day after the shooting when I received that briefing and was told he legally obtained those weapons.

You know, my immediate instinct was, well, that can't stand.

And I had that strong sense that even though I had to consult with other members of parliament to get their support, I just had a sense that New Zealanders would want that to change.

And so when I went down to...

But he wasn't even from New Zealand.

He wasn't.

He was from Australia.

And

there's a range of things that make things a bit easier when you're from the closeness of our relationship.

But

he was able to legally obtain those weapons.

And I think that was a shock to New Zealanders that you could so easily access weapons that were able to take the lives of so many so quickly.

Because one of the things you talk about here, you said when you went and visited people in the hospital, nobody had one gunshot.

Nobody.

Nobody had guns.

Just the range of injuries and the scale of injuries.

And so I just instinctively knew, and I think MPs knew that New Zealanders would be behind them.

And

they were.

When they cast the vote, 119 of 120 members of parliament supported the banning of military-style semi-automatic weapons in New Zealand.

And so when we passed that law,

we bought them back.

So people who had them, we paid for them and then we destroyed them.

Well, what do you say to people say, well, you didn't get rid of all of them?

You know,

in our minds, of course, understanding that New Zealand, you know, we are hunters, we have pests, there's a number of reasons why people hold guns, but weapons like that, they're designed to take the lives of a large number of people in quick order.

And in this case, they did.

And yes, you know, we still have weapons in New Zealand, but we do not routinely now have these ones.

And that was, I think, an incredibly important response to this attack.

Well, as we were talking, no one had any expectation that you would end up in your administration during your time there, serving as prime minister, as the worst mass killing ever in the history of New Zealand.

Also, nobody expected the pandemic.

No.

And during the pandemic, some called your COVID policy one of your greatest political legacies, but there were also blistering critics and criticisms for it, and even

people marching outside your office and death threats.

You talk a lot about it here.

We get inside your head.

But can you briefly, for our audience,

describe what grappling with that experience was like?

Because in the beginning,

we were looking at you all, you only had like six cases in the beginning.

Yeah, we're like.

I guess everyone started with a small number.

And that was one of the things when we looked out into the world, because we were later in receiving COVID.

It took a little longer to get to our shores.

Our first case was the 28th of February in 2020.

So we could see what was happening.

And we also knew from modelling what it would mean for our population.

Tens of thousands of people losing their lives.

And I remember being presented with that as a leader.

You know, I talk a little bit in the book about how there's so few decisions where you can draw that direct line between your decision and

life and death.

But a pandemic is one of them.

And one of the things that we decided to do really early on was just share everything we knew about this illness.

Just to be completely transparent.

Just to be transparent, but also everything we didn't know.

And as a result of that, when it came to the point that we made the decision that actually we need to close our borders and see if we can try and keep New Zealand COVID-free till we have another way of protecting people.

Well, that's just one sentence you're using to describe this, but it was a process.

It was a big process.

It moved quickly, but it was a process.

How do we stop this?

We need to close our borders.

But by sharing all of that, New Zealanders could see not only the decisions we were making, but the choices we had.

And I think that made a difference in people

supporting the course of action.

And accepting it.

Yeah, actually.

Certainly in the beginning.

in the beginning and look there is no question you know i look around the world it was

an incredibly difficult thing to govern through so how do you describe this last week

if there is like a subterranean space that sits beneath hell

that

you know no response was perfect

populations around the world would have reflections on what they believe their governments did right and what they did wrong.

And after the pandemic, we put in place a royal commission, people to go and ask those questions for us, look at how we can be better prepared next time.

I think the issue that you described so beautifully here, and you can describe it beautifully because now you've had time to sit with it.

Yes.

Very well written, I must say, too.

Thank you, because that one I rewrote and rewrote and rewrote because I was, I was processing it.

You know, I came out of COVID and it was a, I had two goals, and I've talked about this a bit.

One was to save people's lives, but the other was to keep people together.

And I didn't achieve both.

And I found that so hard.

I still find it hard.

But you save people's lives so that if they want to eventually get together, they can.

Yes, exactly.

Exactly.

And so

it's hard to feel upset about that.

I don't, you know, and when people say, what do you regret?

I find that really simplistic because.

When people started to turn on you, though, Jacinda, when people started to turn, listen, I've had people turn on me.

I've heard the vitriol from the web.

I've had the, you know, the lies, the stories, the conspiracy theories made up.

It is so

disorienting.

It is.

It is so.

It just, it shakes your foundation because you're like, I don't even recognize who you're talking about.

I absolutely agree with you.

And it's one of those things that you then realize how much through your life you rely on the ability to still just communicate with someone.

Yes.

And that if you can at least talk to them and you can have that dialogue, then if there is that, you know, that bizarre view that someone might have, that conspiracy theory, that you think you might be able to talk to you.

You are, but you can't.

You are losing sleep at night.

You need sleeping pills in order to get to sleep because you are trying to make the best decision

for

the masses.

Yeah.

I just don't understand how anyone...

could assume that I'm so cavalier about having a whole city and over a million people in lockdown.

Of course

I think about it all the time.

I have to take sleeping pills so I don't think about it all the time.

And then you get accused of, oh, it's just a power play.

You're ego-tripping.

You're taking advantage of other people's lives.

You're trying to ruin the economy on purpose.

I mean, it's, it's.

And so the only thing that you can, you know, it took me a while to get to this, but the only thing that you can hold on to in those moments is that you know what your motivation is.

You know that you're just trying to make the right decisions.

And even I think I remember my hardest moments

looking out when we did have an occupation on Parliament's grounds and thinking, well, they think they're protecting people's lives too.

And so do I.

We actually want for the same things.

We have just come at it from completely different corners.

And I do spend a lot of time reflecting on it.

But I still give myself

as much grace as I can that we were motivated by the right things.

And that was to save people's lives.

For all the thinking I give to what I would have done differently, I would still rather be sitting in front of the public and explaining why perhaps we did too much rather than why we did too little

because

the doing too little was the difference between people living and people dying.

Do you think too, you were talking about being completely transparent, which is another you're another way of you offering a different kind of power.

Completely transparent, letting people know, and now this is what is happening.

But I think what people weren't prepared for, okay, we locked down, we have isolated ourselves, we shut the borders, now we're going to open up, we're celebrating, there's a big celebration.

And after that, oh, now we have to lock ourselves down again because now there's a different variant.

I think people

just got wary of the, now there's a different

and then there's another variant and there's another variant.

So we would only, we would use lockdowns when there were cases that we couldn't trace.

So that's when we would use it.

And ultimately, it meant that we had fewer days in lockdown than most countries.

And when we were out, we had relative normality.

Yes.

And I think importantly, we saved an estimated 20,000 lives.

But it came at a cost, you know, for everyone globally.

I think there is globally now this this unease that the way that we'd experienced the world was upended.

Suddenly you could have something that you just didn't see coming and it can fundamentally change your life in an instant.

And we already have such a sense of uncertainty in the world, technological developments, the impact of, you know, the changing economies that we have,

the multiple wars raging.

We have a sense of insecurity that the pandemic just exacerbated so much.

And I think as leaders, and this is one of the things I talk about a lot, we have options in this environment now.

We have the option of actually tackling the core of the difficult problems we have presented to us, which is hard.

Or we have the option of blaming others, of saying that the cause of the insecurity you feel or the financial insecurity you feel is this group or this group.

And that is a quick and easy way to do politics.

Incite fear.

It's the oldest trick in the book, but it is the most harmful and the most damaging.

And

I talk openly about the alternatives because they exist.

There are leaders who champion empathetic leadership, who actually want to solve the problems.

But what we see a spotlight more often is that alternative.

And

I wish so much that we can turn towards those more optimistic, hopeful, and inclusive responses to problems rather than the fear that we see people reach to.

Do you wish you were back in it so that you could offer these optimistic and hopeful?

There are other politicians.

There are politicians out there and leaders out there who believe in solving those core fundamental problems rather than politicking around them.

I see it.

I see it.

I've met them.

I run a fellowship program called Field

to see.

So who do you most admire right now who's doing that?

Who's modeling that differently?

I see it at lots of different levels.

I see it in leadership.

I think the president of Mexico at the moment is so genuinely focused on the well-being of her people through difficult times.

I see it in lots of places, but I see it at, you know, new incoming MPs, MEPs.

We need to shine a light on them

because I think people are losing their hope in politics, and yet there are people that they should feel hopeful about.

Okay.

I asked this of Jimmy Carter once.

When you have the weight of the entire country on your shoulders, and you did in several instances, the weight of the entire country, and just in general, as Prime Minister, the weight of the entire country on your shoulders.

What is your prayer?

I had certain mantras

that would run through my head

and the one that was most common was just

let us be the right decision.

Let's be the right decision.

And that didn't always mean the most popular decision.

I could carry the weight of an unpopular decision if it felt like it was the right one.

I could wear a lot if it felt like the right one, but just let it be the right thing to do.

You know, one of the strengths of all of those things that I thought would hold me back of a little bit of, you know, that self-doubt was actually I would prepare.

I would bring in experts.

I would use people who had the knowledge and expertise to give me the best possible advice.

I would read everything I could about a challenge that was presenting itself.

And then I would overlay my values and my knew as much about COVID as the doctors did because you were studying it every night.

Yes.

I was mocked for that in some cases by

the people I worked with.

This is sitting between me and going to sleep now.

This and you.

And so for me, that idea of the right decision was never just about instinct and values.

It was also about having the right information.

Having the right information.

And,

you know, that trait, that trait of imposter syndrome drove me to lead like that that was a strength in the end that was a strength isn't that amazing how that works out in your life it I think it was your weakness became your strength absolutely because you did question whether or not they're gonna question I should be here I'm gonna make sure that I do everything exactly and have the humility to know that you don't know all the answers and to bring in the people who might and to draw on that well that's a different kind of power to have that humility and to say from time to time I don't know

because because that's very different than I don't have a plan.

And you can lead and be open about what you know and what you don't.

And actually it can build trust.

FDR was that kind of leader and he communicated so directly to people during crisis, during the Depression and war times, what he knew and what he didn't know.

And I think people built trust around him as a result.

Who are other leaders you've admired?

Well, I think, you know, when I look at the United States, when I look at times of crisis, I mean, I do draw back to FDR because there was an empathy to him.

And maybe that came from personal circumstance, but it manifested in the way that he did the job.

In New Zealand, we have similar political leaders.

I remember as a child, our cat was named Norm,

and my father named him after a Prime Minister Norman Kirk.

And as I grew older, I read a little bit more about him.

And he was asked in a prime-time interview once, you know, what

his greatest achievement is such an

entree into spouting off whatever policy as a politician you might have.

He said the letters that he received after they increased benefits for the most vulnerable, one letter where a woman said she could finally afford shoes,

new shoes, and what a relief it was to her.

And

here was this moment with this prime minister, you know,

huge stature.

He was a solid,

a solid man with such presence, but speaking so softly and quietly about a woman being able to now afford shoes.

New shoes.

And it just stayed with me, the fact that he was someone running a country in an individual moment could be so meaningful to him.

So I've been surrounded by great examples, and perhaps it started with my parents.

I love the fact that, or appreciate the fact that when you were going through your most challenging crises, that you looked to people who was at Shackleford, who'd been through the Antarctic.

Yes.

Yes.

I love those Antarctic.

Oh, amazing.

The stories.

Isn't that incredible?

Amazing.

What he was able to do.

And then in the end, he wanted to just save his men.

You know, when you're in politics, people always expect you to spout off all of these your political role models.

But mine is

an Antarctic explorer, you know, who actually failed multiple times.

He did not get there.

But he saved his men.

He saved his men, and he had such a humility in his leadership as well.

And he had the saying that I love.

We're talking about Ernest Shackleton, the explorer who led expeditions to the Antarctic,

who is a hero of yours and of mine, too.

And you have a mug with one of his quotes.

What does it say?

It says, optimism is true moral courage.

And I think there are so many reasons that resonates with me.

And one is that I think we treat hope and optimism often as if they're naive.

And yet the way that he talks about optimism is that actually it's a courageous act and it's a deliberate decision.

And in the circumstances that he was in, and when he's quoting lines like this, he was basically stranded in Antarctica with no hope of rescue.

A sunken ship.

Yeah.

You just knew those men were going to die.

Oh, yeah.

Well, and yet in that that moment, what a courageous act it is to be optimistic.

Yeah.

And without that, you know, it would have impacted, I think, their survival.

It would have.

And so.

At another time, you all can read that story.

Yeah.

But don't let anyone tell you you're naive if you're optimistic.

Well, two years ago, I watched along with millions when you stepped to the podium to announce your resignation.

And so today I'm announcing that I will not be seeking re-election.

Whoa, what a shock that was.

I was so struck, actually,

by a few things you said.

The thing that got me the most was when you said I no longer had enough in the tank

to lead.

I know what this job takes, and I know that I no longer have enough in the tank to do it justice.

It's that simple.

And that you just knew it was time to step down.

Politicians are human.

We We give all that we can for as long as we can, and then it's time.

And for me, it's time.

I understand that feeling because, you know, I had a talk show in the United States for 25 years and it just came to me that

I knew it was time to go.

But it's so rare to find other people.

I mean, a talk show is not like running a nation as you were doing.

And when did that feeling start to occur to you?

Was it that you got worn down by COVID and all the COVID

vaccine objectors?

I mean, the point at which I made the decision was a good year after

any of that, and there was nothing particularly occurring at the time.

That was what was so great about it.

Yeah, as a child.

Because it's not like she's stepping down because of COVID or she's stepping down because it's too overwhelming or she's stepping down.

No.

There was no moment.

There was no thing.

And in fact,

I knew when I came to make the announcement that people would

wonder.

Yes.

what is the one thing.

And there was no one thing.

And

sometimes...

It wasn't one thing, it was everything.

It was a range of different

trigger points, all of which for me pointed to, am I still the leader I believe I need to be in order to do this job well?

So I felt like I was becoming a bit more defensive than I wanted to be.

Oh my God.

It takes a different kind of power.

Do you know what it takes to be, to have the level of self-awareness to say, I don't know if I still have it.

Yeah.

I thought everyone ran through that in their mind from time to time.

But certainly.

People may run through it, but they keep going anyway because

they don't want to give up the perception of power.

I mean,

look at what's happening in our halls of Congress now.

People don't speak up because they don't want to be primary.

They don't want to lose what they perceive as the real power in their life.

Or perhaps in some cases they feel a responsibility to stay.

And that is real.

I know that to be true because when I talked to a very small group, because I could only talk to a small group, about the fact I was considering stepping down,

one of the things that was raised, well, we have an election.

There are people that are relying on you.

And I felt that weight of responsibility so,

so acutely.

But actually, that was also the thing that

helped me make the decision.

If I knew that perhaps I didn't have in reserve what was required for crisis, and I'd seen enough of them to know what you required, and if I felt that I was becoming more defensive, and maybe that my curiosity wasn't what it used to be,

those were signs that it would be irresponsible to stay.

Wow.

And as soon as I gave myself the permission to think about it like that,

That was when I made the call.

Yeah.

Wow.

And how did you prepare for that?

How did you prepare to make the announcement?

But once you've made the decision,

it's done.

Yeah.

And it's done.

How are you going to tell people?

And I tried to write about the decision, and you can see it's a very iterative thing.

And that's because I think that's reality.

I can tell you actually wrote this book.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can say it.

Thank you.

I don't actually, you know, it was therapy with a deadline, so it ended up

helping in lots of ways.

But writing about the act of leaving,

you know, it was, it was a series of conversations.

It was a series

of thoughts and moments that culminated in the decision.

And once I made the decision, then it just came,

it was then just about telling people.

And I was, I was.

You were ready?

I was ready, but I was also afraid.

What were you afraid?

Of their judgment?

Their criticism?

Yeah, I think when you're in politics, you're trained you spend years being acutely aware of what everyone thinks

and it's part of your job i didn't want to let people down uh i didn't want to disappoint people

um

and so walking away yeah it felt it felt like it was a lonely decision and it was a hard decision but i've never regretted it and i've never felt like it was the wrong one i was thinking this when i was reading it you did you get out of politics because of the politics of the politics

it well that has always been my least favorite part i mean that sounds so silly.

My least favorite part of politics is politics.

You know, it is, I was always attracted to it because of what you could do.

If you want to, if you, you know, if you're one of those idealistic young people who wants to change the world, what better place than politics?

It's incredible what you can do with it.

And I still believe in it now more so than even when I went in.

But the day-to-day

of it is is difficult because that's what you have to do in in spite of why you're motivated to be there.

And I know I'm not alone in that.

There are people who love the sport and there are people who just love what you can do.

Tell me, how do you go from

the velocity?

I think is the word that Michelle Obama used in her book becoming the velocity of her days?

I mean, she says,

you know,

you don't remember where you've been.

You don't remember who you've met many times because you're meeting so many people.

Just the velocity of life the day-to-day.

How do you go from that to now you're taking care of me?

Yes.

You're in the house.

You're making dinner.

Yeah.

You're having like a normal life without people standing outside waiting for answers for everything.

Well, two things.

I mean, the great thing.

Full speed to small speed.

The great thing about running a country like New Zealand is that it's small.

And so you do get to maintain.

Lots of normal things.

You can, you know, you're supermarket shopping and you're from time to time a drop-off for NEEV.

I could still do that from time to time.

But you're right, the pace, the pace of life

suddenly turns off like a tap.

But even though the expectation wasn't there anymore, it didn't really change the way it behaved.

And so

I probably now have an issue now that the book is finished, because for a while, that was

what you were doing.

At nighttime, I would write, you know, a spear and waking moment, I would write.

And it's only now after two years that I'm sitting still for a bit.

And I can tell you, my husband husband doesn't like it.

No, I don't think he thinks it suits my personality particularly.

Well, I think he did a good job filming the documentary.

He did a good.

I think he only he could have really.

You know, he's a broadcaster.

And so when suddenly I become leader of my party, he just picked up his phone and started filming me.

And you can.

You can see in the film, I'm not always happy about that.

Yeah, I can't see.

And, you know, not with a great plan in mind.

He just thought it was a moment in history to capture.

And for me,

it was a chance to humanize leadership in a moment in time when I think we could all benefit from humanizing one another.

Well, you said that at a speech at Harvard in 2023.

You said that now is the time that we need to re-humanize one another.

We've got a hyper-partisanship now that I think can be really damaging.

It means we don't work together as much.

It means we don't listen and engage in respectful debate that we need.

And if we are to get back to doing all of those things, because we won't solve the climate crisis unless we do, we won't solve the conflict in the Middle East unless we do,

we have to re-humanize one another again.

I think that's what's missing in this discourse that everybody's having with the vitriol and the spewing of the hatred is that people have been so dehumanized.

After the

attack in New Zealand on March 15, one of the things I became really interested in was how do we get to a place where individuals are radicalized to harm and to violence.

I wanted to understand

how that could happen in our world.

And one of the precursors to that, certainly in the academic writing, is this idea of binary thinking,

putting people into groups of good and evil.

And the moment that you can put people into those classifications and the moment you dehumanize them, that is when you see the the that's when you see acts of terrorism that's when you see acts of violence absolutely and so i i do i think it's incredibly important that we find ways to remember our shared humanity and if anything i that march 15 taught me was

that we have that in us we we have that in us but there are so many things that make that more difficult in this modern age now i cannot determine what will define my time in this place but i do hope i've demonstrated something else entirely That you can be anxious, sensitive, kind,

and wear your heart on your sleeve.

You can be a mother or not.

You can be all of these things.

And not only can you be here,

you can lead

just like me.

Since you left office, I know that one of your big passions is a group that you founded called Fellowship for Empathetic Leadership.

You call it FIALD.

What is that and what is your intention for it?

You know, after I left office, I never particularly saw myself moving into the space of talking about leadership.

I thought there are people who have studied this, it's their life's work.

You know, just because I've been a leader doesn't mean I'm an expert in it.

But

you know, when I sat down and worked through what would have made a difference for me as a leader, having that network of others who understand what it is to be in politics and to be leading empathetically and with a particular view of leadership, it would have made a real difference to me to have a network of others who are doing the same.

And

I know, as I've talked about, that there are leaders out there who are leading in that way and may benefit from having that network.

And so I started FIELD.

It's a year-long fellowship program for people who are working in and around politics who believe in empathetic leadership.

to just support them in their endeavours, just provide that network to help them keep going

and also to demonstrate that it is a successful way to lead and that there is support for that way to lead from voters, from the public, for the people that we serve.

When you finished your manuscript and you sent it off to the publisher, was there a sense of

release and also

a deeper understanding of what you'd been through, having put yourself through the process of defining for yourself and now for the world what a different kind of power looks like.

I remember feeling that after I read it aloud several times.

That probably sounds like a really strange thing to do.

I think every author should.

I read it aloud several times probably because

you know, I'm not an author.

I considered myself a speechwriter.

I would write all my major speeches.

And you were a speaker because you were on the debate team.

Yes, I was.

I was on the debate team.

I mean, surprise.

I was on the debate team, shocking as I know that will be for people

and so my training I think was was speech writing and so I would always read a speech aloud and so I thought I'm gonna do that with the book I read it aloud several times it was after I recorded the audio book

that I remember standing back from it and thinking you know

that is that is the best that I could have done

And I think actually that's how I felt after I left office.

I did my best.

And I think when you're someone who does suffer from a confidence gap, that in itself is actually

a pretty significant achievement to say, actually, I know I did my best.

Well, that's all the universe requires of us.

And now I'm so, I really am so delighted and pleased that you

decided to put it into words so that we all get to experience it.

And we all get, I think what this book does is gives us an opportunity

to look at what a different kind of power looks like within our own lives.

And I thank you for that.

Thank you.

I have to tell you, I have been an admirer of yours from afar, as I said earlier.

And it's so wonderful to be up close and still have that same admiration.

Because, you know, people say, don't meet your heroes.

I'm so glad I met my hero today.

Thank you.

Thank you.

And please come back to New Zealand.

There's a lot of people wanting to hike with you.

I will do that.

Thank you, the right honorable Dame Jacinda Ardern, for being with us today.

And a different kind of power is available wherever books are sold.

And Jacinda reads the audio book.

And as you just heard her say, when she finished, she said, that's the best she could do.

Really.

Thank you.

Thank you.

You're one of those women that makes me proud to spell my name, W-O-M-A-N.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

You can subscribe to the Oprah podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen.

Thank you to Lily for presenting today's episode.

I'll see you next week.

Thanks, everybody.