How to Let Go after Being Let Go with Oprah and authors Laura Brown & Kristina O’Neill

I actually said to the journal manager, is this an April Fool's joke?

And he goes, no, we're taking you off.

We're taking you off the news.

Gail King was a production assistant at the time.

I was the six o'clock co-anchor.

And I went back downstairs and I go, meet me in the bathroom now.

Okay, everybody.

Hi.

I'm so glad you all are here.

And I know life is busy.

So I thank you all for spending your time with us on the Oprah podcast, where every week we're diving into topics that we hear are top of mind for so many of you watching and listening.

And on this episode, whoa, we're talking about something that is just so timely about the seismic shift that millions of you are facing in the job market.

These days, nobody is safe.

Don't care where you are.

You're not safe from the stress of thinking you may be let go.

You may be laid off or experience a reduction in force rifts, as your company may call them, downsizing, restructuring, reorgs, all the corporate buzzwords and euphemisms that

people use.

But let's face it, no matter what it's called, what it feels like

is getting fired.

And for women,

it just hits differently.

And oftentimes, it feels like shame.

And this is a really important conversation that rarely gets attention.

So I'm so happy to welcome to the tea house the authors of a new book, Working Women Need Right Now.

It's called All the Cool Girls Get Fired.

All the Cool Girls get fired.

When you say it, you have to say it like that.

All the cool girls get fired.

Powerhouse executives Laura Brown and Christina O'Neill have decades of experience in fashion and media.

The two friends spent 10 years working together at Harper's Bazaar.

Christina then rose to editor-in-chief of the Wall Street Journal magazine.

Later, Laura became editor-in-chief of Instyle magazine.

In 2022, Laura was stunned when she was asked to step down.

14 months later, Christina was also let go.

10 minutes before, the meeting changed from her office to the HR room.

So I knew instantly after 10 years, my time was up.

While out for a drink to commiserate, Laura and Christina posted a photo on Laura's Instagram with the caption, all the coolest girls get fired.

We posted it that night because, and there was no second guessing, there was no ambiguity because it was like, we were great at our jobs.

We got fired.

Their post hit a nerve and inspired them to write a book.

There was this deluge immediately from women going, oh, wow, you said it.

Oh, me too.

All the cool girls get fired is a roadmap for rebuilding your career and figuring out who you really are without your job title.

In all my time at CNN, I would make phone calls and be CNN's Brooke Baldwin.

And then all of a sudden, record scratch, I'm just making making a phone call and I'm just Brooke.

And I had to have a real sort of come to Jesus with who that person is.

Laura Brown.

Hello, thank you for having us.

And Christina O'Neal.

Welcome.

Thank you.

So I want to start by hearing what happened to you, cool girls, to each of you.

You were at different

popular magazines, but both of you were at the peaks of your careers.

You had the titles.

And what happened?

Do you want to go chronologically?

Because I was first.

Not to brag, I was first.

Yes, I ran InStyle magazine and all the way through COVID, you know, it was a really challenging time.

As an editor, we worked for three different companies during the time at the same magazine.

You were on our cover seven years ago.

And

in early 2022, I got a call from my immediate boss.

And I was like, hi.

And I was also...

I was also an HR professional on the phone.

And I was given 20 minutes notice that the Instyle print side is what they refer to it was being shut down so 20 minutes later myself and my entire team were on a zoom they call like an all-hands meeting and we were laid off on zoom and that was that and it was like okay you're going to get your paperwork you're going to get your hr contacts roll up your your stuff and and you're done had you had any warning any signs before i mean i think

yes i think that well i was a bit head out the window i was looking to do my own thing but yes my managing editor one day said laura we don't have a budget

But I was, no, I was like, because we'd been through so much change and coming through COVID and all of those huge seismic cultural things, we'd been rolling with things so much.

So this just seemed like another thing to roll with.

And our rolling stopped on that morning when we were all laid off.

And immediately after that, we all just got back on.

What always is a sign is if HR is on the call.

If an HR professional is on the call, because there's always a script, you know, and because they've got to do all the legal stuff and the language has to be correct.

And so we got through that.

But yeah, I sort of got everybody back on a Zoom right after.

And I was like, okay, what are we going to do?

What are we going to do?

Because it was 35 people.

35 people.

Christina, how about you?

I was one of one.

One of one.

One of one.

Special.

There was a regime change at the top of the masthead at the Wall Street Journal at the beginning of 2023.

The editor-in-chief of the newspaper was replaced, who was my direct boss.

And the new woman who came in started in February, February went by,

March went by, and I couldn't get a meeting with her.

So in late April, I finally got the meeting 10 minutes before the meeting changed from her office to the HR room.

Whoa.

So I knew instantly.

You knew instantly.

After 10 years,

my time was up.

But you hadn't had any indication before.

So the fact that you're going to HR, would you think?

I would think, well, this isn't about me.

This must be about somebody else.

Yes.

I had PowerPoints.

I had printouts.

I was ready.

You know, I was ready to knock her socks off.

But, you know, unfortunately, I think her

message to me was that she wanted to go into a different direction.

Yeah.

And then she didn't she say that you can, you know, help create your own narrative.

Yeah.

And you said, no, we are going to go and tell my team that you're firing me.

And I don't know how I had the wherewithal in that moment in that room, but I knew if I had to add a layer of complexity to this situation, when I I was like shaping the story.

Yeah,

if I had to carry a lie in addition to carrying the shock and the devastation,

I would never get through it.

Yeah.

I think it's so good that you're using those words that a lot of women use throughout all the cool girls get fired.

It's shock at first and devastation.

Yeah.

Because I'll tell you all my story later.

My story is in this book, but I remember leaving the general manager's office being told, and I was just kind of numb.

There is a kind of, you are in a state of disbelief.

So tell us, Laura, how the book title and the idea of this book came about.

And it came, it's what Christina was mentioning, from ownership, from owning what happened to us and being straightforward.

Let me remind you, all the cool girls get fired.

So as cool girls do when they get fired or if they're into this, they tend to go to a bar.

And

I

just come back from a trip to South Africa and Christina had been fired, and she'd actually texted me when I was in South Africa being getting canned.

From under the table, in the HR room.

Really?

Yes.

And so I arrived back from South Africa.

I was like, I've got to see my friend.

And so

we went to meet at a bar.

So remind us, how long had this happened to her?

How long had it been since?

14 months between.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

So I was February 2022 and you were end of April

23.

Okay.

So on the way down to the bar, I texted Chrissy and her and I was like, here's what we're going going to do.

And she's like,

yes, that's our relationship, basically.

And I said, we're going to take a picture for Instagram.

We're going to look super cute.

And we're captioning it.

All the cool girls get fired.

And she went, okay.

And we did it.

And we posted it that night because, and there was no second guessing.

There was no ambiguity because it was like, we were great at our jobs.

We got fired.

This happened.

This is honesty.

And this is ownership.

And so we flung it out on the internet.

And there was this deluge immediately from women going, oh, wow, you said it.

Oh, me too.

Oh, oh, damn.

Like there's kind of almost like a psychological door opening with women that we said.

And honestly, there was some ego in it too.

It was like, we are good.

We are good at what we do.

This happened.

It will happen to you.

It's happening to everyone right now.

We're going to own it.

And it's actually also the easiest way out because it cuts short all of this spin and narrative that so many women feel like they still have to do.

Then you all decided, you decided then with the drinks.

Oh, yeah, the next morning it was the next morning.

Talk to our mutual bathrooms.

Yeah, so I was, you know, hurriedly getting ready and I called Laura and I said, this is a book.

I knew instantly that this was the messaging that we needed to put out into the world.

Also, I think at that point, Laura was probably sick of me asking her questions.

You know, there's so much you don't know when you get fired.

You know, I didn't know how to navigate Cobra.

I didn't know if I needed a lawyer.

And then if I had a lawyer,

was I paying them the right amount?

Like

all these things that sort of present themselves when you're suddenly let go.

So we thought it was so important to

combine that service element with the stories of the women who we had seen kind of immediately respond on Instagram.

So I think it's so

smart what these women did.

They have chapters with experts who offer practical step-by-step advice on what to do and what not to do once you're fired.

It's just invaluable information that nobody ever tells you.

So what do you want to say about that, Christina?

Well, it's the book we wish we had.

It's a book I wish I had.

Wow, if there had been this book,

I wouldn't have felt so alone.

But in addition to all the emotions, you're sitting there Googling like 101 stuff that

thankfully, you know, now exists in one place.

But that was really what we felt like was missing.

And that inspiration, those women talking about what they had been through, and that opportunity to hopefully fire up some dreams.

I am so glad to be with you here.

When we come back, what I learned from getting fired from anchoring the evening news in Baltimore.

Big lesson.

A warm welcome back to the Oprah podcast.

I'm with the authors of a timely new book called All the Cool Girls Get Bired.

Laura Brown and Christina O'Neill.

And then you also have these personal interviews with women you call badass who've been fired at one time or

badasses.

But others, Lisa Kudreau and Tarana Burke and Jamie Lee Curtis and Katie Kurick, to name just a few.

Why did you want to incorporate other women besides yourselves?

Because your stories are strong.

It was very deliberate because when you're alone on that couch and you've lost your job and you don't know where your money's coming from and you don't know if you have healthcare anymore and you're staring at your bank balance and you may be picking up a glass of wine or you're just staring at the window,

Whether you have, guess breaking news, it's easier in life to have more resources than less.

But when you're fired from whatever context it is, you all feel the same.

You feel terrible.

And so the important thing was to remind everyone, we specifically chose high-profile, extremely successful, well-known women for this book because these women, including yourself, felt like that.

When you were fired, you weren't here.

You didn't have a rose garden.

You know, and all of these women, none of these women did.

So they were there on the couch.

They were crying.

They felt alone.

And look at them now.

And even if you have a rose garden, you're still going to feel pretty bad.

Yeah.

Exactly.

It's just not part of the legends that are told about women, right?

It's part of the lore that Steve Jobs got fired.

It's part of Mike Bloomberg's narrative that he was let go from Solomon Brothers.

There aren't that many women out there who

have acknowledged a setback that unlocked what came next for them.

And we need to change that.

We need to have more conversations with women so that other women, you know, can sort of see the, I mean, that's why we're so happy you're in the book.

This is the thing.

Why is it that men seem to, or maybe they're just hiding behind it too, but they seem to be able to move on?

Because I think I love one of the quotes in the book.

Men are expected to be brave, but women are expected to be perfect.

That's a johnny.

Yeah.

That's who says that.

Yeah.

Men are expected to be brave, but women are expected to be perfect.

And because of that, women carry more shame with the firings than men do.

Men just seem to pick themselves up and keep moving on.

Also remember that the workplace in itself is a male construct.

You know, men started working before we did.

We only got the vote 100 years ago.

Yes,

so you know, when we, one of our HR experts said, we were like, why does it hit harder?

And she said, because it took us longer to get there.

Generationally, we do carry that.

When we got up this little rung and we're pushed off,

it hits more harder.

And that's again part of the book: is like, if you own it and you have a little bit of, I don't know, be male, be whatever the, whatever that thing is.

The sooner you own it, the sooner we change this culture.

We want more women to put up their hands.

We would have done double the amount of stories in this book, but people still,

women we know, are still spinning it.

And it's like enough.

It does no one any good.

Well, I think, too, when you have public jobs that everyone else knows, and also when you have jobs like yourselves, you get that editor-in-chief title, you work for whatever that means, and all that that means to the rest of the world.

And you feel that there's a sense of embarrassment.

I know for me, because for me, it was being on the evening news and having had, this is when I was 22, and having had so much promotion about it that, you know, everybody in town was like, well, who is this girl coming to Baltimore?

And then I end up being a year later, less than a year later, removed from the evening evening news.

And as I was saying, when I got called up, it was on April Fool's Day.

So it was April 1st.

Yeah.

And I thought, oh, this is an April Fool's joke.

I just said to the journal manager, is this an April Fool's joke?

And he goes, no, we're taking you off of,

we're taking you off the news.

Gail King was a production assistant at the time.

I was the six o'clock co-anchor.

And I went back downstairs and I go, meet me in the bathroom now.

And I told her that I've just been taken off the six o'clock news, but I still have to do the six o'clock news.

And the embarrassment of everybody knowing it, I think, is very much like having to go back in the office when you have been the manager, director, you've been, or not, and everybody knowing it.

Oh, it's reputational.

I mean, everyone has different levels of where the stress comes from.

Financial, health, reputational.

Everyone, Teran talks about that, you know, as there's certain, whatever industry you're in, there is sometimes a status that comes with that.

There's relationships that

come with that.

There's comfort that comes with that.

There's rituals that come with that.

And you are yanked out of those.

You are like a beetle on its back.

And that's an absolutely normal feeling.

Yeah.

But one of the things, you know, I think that was consistent across the reporting that we did for the book was the fact that women think they're wearing a sweater with a scarlet F on it is mostly in their head.

And they have created that shame.

They have put the shame upon themselves.

That's right.

And the sooner you're able to shake the shame and take off the you know metaphorical sweater and stop thinking that everyone in the room is talking about you when you walk in or they're talking about you behind your back They're not you know, they're not and the sooner you can shake that you can move on and Reach out to people about other opportunities.

Yeah, well the other thing is I remember when it happened to me at 22 because there had been so much publicity about me coming to Baltimore and doing the evening news and I had a co-anchor who didn't want me there and all of that stuff that I walked into that I didn't know.

I felt shame

and embarrassed by it.

I was embarrassed by it and I also felt like a failure.

I felt like I had failed at this thing that I had come to do.

which eventually turned out to be okay because they put me on a talk show.

And that was really where I.

Touche.

Touche.

But something you said earlier, Laura, you said, we knew we were good at our jobs.

Yes.

Yes, yes.

Yeah.

You know, and were left to feel like there's something you did that was inadequate.

It's very different when you feel like

you're being blamed for being inadequate and you fail than

something happened in the company, I was great at my job, and we're no longer.

Do you

see a difference?

Yes, there's absolutely a difference, but there's also a difference in numbers.

So if you feel like, you know, especially the Dogelay offices and we were just reading about all the college educated people now who have lost jobs, and

you do, it is,

you know harder to control but there's so many more of you unfortunately in this yes and so what you do have while you have this terrible feeling you do have you actually do have a community yes because there's thousands of people yes who lost their jobs at the same time as you so try not to yeah to wear it on yourself because sadly you don't have the exclusive on it right you know right i think so many of you will relate to this passage if you're not confident in your position you don't know where you stand day to day or worse if you're even valued well get out of there sister leave them before they leave you.

Oh, and forget that quiet quitting thing.

Nonsense.

Why would you want to passively prolong a situation that is chipping away at you every day?

Christina, you say you fantasized about firing yourself, right?

But you never had the courage to do it.

How do you know when it's time to leave?

Yeah, well, read the room.

Vibes are off.

Are the vibes off?

You know, I think if you dread going to work, that's a pretty telling sign.

If, you know, you're having sleepless nights, if you're

sitting there sort of, you know, wishing Friday came sooner, you know, I think all of that is very, you know, your body tells you before maybe your mind catches up.

So, you know, I think if you're in a situation like that, protect yourself.

Also, there's so many things that people can do, even if they love their jobs, but there were things that I hadn't done in 10 years.

I hadn't updated my resume.

I had not gone on LinkedIn.

I hadn't downloaded a single contact or backed up an email.

So when this happened to me, I felt like the triage that needed to be done just to sort of save the like simple things that you could be doing along the way

to sort of put yourself in a better place.

You know,

if I had done some of those things, maybe I would have felt a little more confident in the next step.

Thank you for listening to the Oprah podcast.

Stay with us.

We're going to be talking with former CNN news anchor Brooke Baldwin about how she coped with losing her identity after being fired.

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only.

Thank you for listening to the Oprah podcast.

We're back with all the cool girls.

Get fired.

Authors Laura Brown and Christina O'Neill.

We're talking with former CNN news anchor, Brooke Baldwin.

You all know Brooke Baldwin.

She was a high-profile CNN news anchor for more than a decade with her own show.

It was her dream job since she was a little girl.

And then she was fired in 2021.

This year, Brooke gave a TEDx talk title, Getting Fired from My Dream Job, Taught Me About Truth, and wrote an essay for Vanity Fair titled, Leaving CNN was how I found my voice.

So hi, Brooke.

Good to see you.

Hi, everyone.

I needed this book four years ago.

I needed this all four years ago.

You described getting fired as an unraveling, but in a good way.

How so?

Let's talk about that.

I mean, at the time, not so much.

And I'm listening to all of y'all and I'm like, there was no HR involved in mine.

I was like, does anyone want an exit interview?

No?

No?

Okay.

I can't tell the truth as to why I'm actually leaving.

No, okay.

That was so, so hard.

And my bar was three weeks in the British Virgin Islands drinking a lot of Dark and Stormies.

That said, after I wiped, you know, my tears and had wiser friends say to me, Brooke, like,

this is a gift.

This is a gift.

And I was like, I don't know what you're talking about.

You know, ultimately I realized.

This was the beginning of my unraveling.

Like, Oprah, you say this and it's so right on.

It's like the universe comes and first it's the whisper and we don't really always were like i don't want to hear i don't want to hear and then comes the knock and we're like i don't want to know who's on the other side of the door and then as i put it like the frying pan to the forehead yeah and i got the frying pan and i only now know that i needed it that i had veered so totally off my path and i needed to come home to myself which is exactly what i've been doing Wow.

But did you know why at the time you were being fired?

And was it a surprise?

It was a total surprise.

You know, like who I think it was Laura who said, I had sort of one foot out the door.

I knew I wasn't in full alignment.

I knew that, you know, I was into covering stories using my humanity, my authenticity.

And I think the currency more and more in cable news was around being pugilistic and interviewing people and having these cable news food fights.

And it just wasn't my jam.

There are people way better at that than me.

And so one day I got a call, you know, during like a Trump impeachment trial and he got impeached.

And that was my version of April Fool's Day.

And I got a little, I got impeached as well.

And

to this day,

I have no idea.

I got fired without cause.

I have that on paper.

And that was part of the hardest part.

It's like, you know, I had this persevering, like, I'm a good person.

I'm a good person.

I'm a good person.

Like, how did this happen?

Why did this happen?

But it needed to happen.

And I know that now.

How did it affect your self-identity?

You know, I think particularly people who are in high-profile jobs that other people recognize as high-profile jobs,

you

lose yourself in that job.

You lose yourself in the identity of what you do.

So, how did it affect how you saw yourself?

I've also heard this from other women who aren't in high-profile jobs.

You become,

and I know you all talk to lots of people.

So, I want your thoughts on that and then your thoughts on that.

Yeah, yeah.

No, I mean, my identity was inextricably linked with those three little letters.

Like, in all my, you know, time at CNN, I would make phone calls and be, you know, CNN's Brooke Baldwin.

I'm CNN.

This is Brooke calling from CNN.

And then all of a sudden, like, you know, record scratch, I'm just making a phone call and I'm, I'm just Brooke?

Who's just Brooke?

And yeah.

And I had to have a real sort of come to Jesus with who that person is.

But, you know, to all of y'all's point, I have,

in coming home to myself, I literally get down on my knees and pray all the time.

It helped me free myself to now figure out, ah,

who is just Brooke and what does just Brooke not want to do?

Yeah.

Did a lot of people talk about self-identity?

Yeah, I mean, I mean, you know, it's an easy thing to do.

If you enjoy what you do and you're passionate about what you do, you do place some of your value in what you do.

But that's the dangerous part if it becomes all of your value.

And, you know, it's an easy thing to say don't do it, but we all do it, especially in any business.

Again, there's status, there's comfort, there's all of these things.

The Oprah Show was my life.

Yeah.

It was my life.

I know, and that's and similar to you, Brooke.

It was my.

That's all I did.

Everybody, yeah.

I went to work, I did work, and then I got up and went to work again.

Yeah.

Yeah, and I think that it's a very seductive thing, obviously, and it's a very rewarding thing, but you have to just peek around it a bit, you know, just to remind yourself that there is something else out there to keep something else going on in your life, your friends, your family, some other thing that just broadens you as a person.

So when this happens, you're not totally laid out.

You know what I mean?

And that's what's really, really hard, though.

Yeah, Christina.

Yeah, and I think we live in an interesting time where the types of jobs that people are able to create when they walk away from something as monumental as what you had built and what Brooks Roll and CNN was, there's so many more opportunities out there than there were when we were coming up, right?

And I think it's been really exciting to sort of see people who lose their jobs create new opportunities to start working for themselves.

You know,

the landscape has changed so dramatically, even in the three, two and a half years since we left our positions.

And I think that's such a good reminder that you can create something new out of the ashes.

Yeah, I love what Brooke said, too, about coming home to herself.

I think no matter who you are, no matter who you are, when it happens, you have to give yourself room.

to be still,

have the drinks, go out and do the drinks,

lay on the sofa, Do the tears, all of that.

But be still enough to come back home because it is a resetting for yourself.

No matter who you are, I think it's a resetting.

It is.

And honestly, I mean, my husband came up with this.

He calls it the Johnny Apple seed rule, where basically, like, you don't know this, but in any career you're in, if you're a nice person and you've worked hard, you're actually throwing seeds around.

Yeah.

You know, all the time, unwittingly.

And then when you need it, you will look around and there's a little orchard for you because you've created this world for yourself.

And we we had, people will show up for you.

Don't be shy.

Ask them.

If you've done good work and you have good relationships, people will show up for you.

And don't isolate yourself and open yourself up to that because you're reminded of who you are and not what your job was.

Absolutely.

Brooke, what do you want to say to anyone listening about how you recovered, what didn't work, what did?

You know, I think one of the things that was actually the hardest part was I really had to get to know my younger self.

Like we had to get in.

We had to be in deep conversation, you know,

when I was graduating college and all my girlfriends were living in the big city and living these, you know, sex in the city exciting lives, I was moving to small town America.

You know, I'm rolling the teleprompter under the desk with my foot.

I'm covering water skiing squirrels.

I'm working all the grave shark, graveyard shifts, you know, I dated the wrong guys.

I put off having kids.

Like my eggs were still frozen.

And so I had to really, I had to tell her, you like talk to your younger self.

She's not disappointed in you.

You know, you're going to make her proud.

Just watch.

Just watch watch and wait and have faith.

And speaking of the drinking, I'll end with this.

I quit.

You know, for the first time in my life, I realized, gosh, with all this change happening for me, I felt myself starting to reach a numb in a way that I felt was unhealthy.

And I feel fortunate that I could just quit cold turkey like that.

But I like

clarity is a gift.

That's where I am.

Clarity is your gift.

Yeah.

Agree.

And it takes time to get there.

It does.

It does.

Years ago.

It does.

Well, thanks, Brooks.

Good to see you.

Good to see you thriving, flourishing.

Good to see you.

Adina Presley is a single mom of two daughters, and for 34 years, she was vice president at a well-known financial group.

And last year, she was laid off due to large-scale downsizing.

And Adina, I hear you relate to the shame piece, but now you're feeling better about it, excited, right?

I'm feeling so excited about it.

And, you know, I'm sitting sitting back here so now you belong to the now you belong to all the cool girls

one of the cool girls high five high five that's right high five I'm such a cool girl as I'm sitting here and I'm listening to Christina and Laura and even Brooke I'm sitting here and I'm just like oh my god yes that was me every single thing that they spoke about happened to me And I think what I really wanted to let people know is, yeah, it's okay to be a cool girl and get fired.

It's okay for you to say you know what

i don't want to work for anybody else anymore i want to work for myself you know and i looked at it as you know what you guys actually did me a favor you put a battery in my back and you gave me the confidence to say i can do this and i can do this on my own so i am loving it i have to be honest when i first got the call um i didn't say that I was let go.

And I think the reason why I didn't, it wasn't so much shame.

It was so much like, I'm not going to let your bad decisions or your, you know, the decisions you made with regards to business and that you had to downsize diminish the work that I did.

You know, I was successful at what I did.

I was good at what I did.

And yeah, I was a cool girl where I was.

So I was not going to let that define me.

So

that's where I'm at.

And so, but did you grieve in the beginning?

Was there some grief for you?

about the job that was?

Or did you immediately go into, I'm going to do something on my own

well first of all i think like um laura had mentioned i kind of knew it was coming because 15 minutes before the um virtual meeting i saw that it was my boss and the hr professional so the right oh my god

it's so cliche i mean that's the most like oh my god we're all in the same boat yeah so

yeah yes so i i knew it was coming and when they you know when you finally hear the words i sat there for a second and i literally closed my laptop and I said, wow, that wasn't so bad.

I feel like a ton of bricks is lifted up off of my chest because like Christina,

you know, in my role, I was starting to become discouraged.

I was starting to become,

you know, I couldn't even motivate my team.

You know, it was a struggle for me because I didn't like the direction that the company was going in.

I didn't like the decisions that they were making.

You know, I saw the cutbacks that was coming.

And to be honest with you,

I was actually shocked.

So my question is, and this could be for either one of you ladies, what advice would you give women, especially those like me who's further along in their career because I'm 54

and we have to reinvent ourselves and start over?

You know, like what advice would you give with regards to that?

Well, I was inspired to hear that you're working for yourself.

And I think that that is

such a good reminder that everything you built didn't evaporate when your job did.

Oh, that's good.

And that you're able to take it with you and put it to work for yourself.

And I think that so many people get shocked into,

you know, discouragement and can't see, you know, an opportunity.

And I think it's really impressive that you were able to sort of see the forest from the trees and, you know,

came and put something together for yourself.

Yes, you've built a platform of your own skills and history, and it doesn't disappear if you lose your job.

You stand on on that and you should feel tall and not make yourself small.

The second thing I would say is one of our experts mentioned this.

When this happens to you, and you are in shock,

but he said,

look at, take a beat, and we all have a beat, you know, to what made you more happy and less happy over the course of your career.

So what can you do to increase the happiness and decrease the unhappiness?

And we call it math for your dreams.

Like take that moment and there's just, and any job we've had, we're like, okay, this is fine, this is fine, I've got it, sort of, I've got it, and there's a little, hopefully a bit of curiosity or a bit of

attention to change or a bit of a passion that's been lying in you that you haven't explored because you've been in this job.

You know, the job that you're in sometimes is like a sandpit.

You know, when you go to the same sandpit every day, you know everyone there.

Hi, Jimmy.

Yeah.

Hi, yeah, yeah.

Hi, Johnny.

Hi, Jimmy.

Hi, Johnny.

And you know the sandpit.

You know the sandpit.

And you go there, maybe the sandpit's a little dirtier, but you still know it.

And then something happens when you're fired.

You're like,

there was a beach

the entire time I've been sitting in this sandpit.

There's a a whole beach out there, and I didn't notice.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's the beach, and that's what you look at as a, especially we're all in our 50s.

You know,

we have that experience and that ability to look at that beach and follow that passion.

You've done that by working for yourself, so bravo.

And experience doesn't

go away.

Experience becomes, that's the thing that you bring with you.

Yeah, I absolutely believe that.

One of the things I said in All the Cool Girls Get Fired is that when I was telling my story about

being taken off the six o'clock news is that the bounce back is even greater.

However far down you are taken, the bounce back comes back even greater because it gives you a moment to reassess, as Brooke was saying, to come home to yourself, which is exactly how I felt the very first day I did my first talk show interview.

And I felt like, oh, this is why that happened.

This is what I was supposed to do.

And now that's exactly where you are, Dina.

Congratulations, actually.

Thank you so much.

Congratulations on the setback was a setup, girl.

Setback was a setup.

Thank you.

You all write that getting fired can actually be a wake-up call, that it's actually a wake-up call.

And you say that if one's identity is tied to that job, then it's time to reset.

Exactly.

So what do you want to say to women about resetting boundaries at work?

Yeah, I mean, listen, it's so tempting to answer the emails at eight, nine o'clock at night or on the weekend.

And it's very tempting to kind of only, you know, hang out with friends that you met in the office.

You know, but I think with time and age and perspective, you know, I have learned, you know, going into my new job, you have to set boundaries.

You have to create passions and interests outside of the day job.

And those are the things that remain when the job doesn't.

You have work friends and then you have real friends.

And you have to have those, you have to be able to make a distinction.

And I think too many people get wrapped up in

lose the line, lose the boundaries.

You've given it all.

Yeah, keep your eye on the horizon, I think.

And what you're in right now is what you're in right now.

But if you are, I mean, look at the change that we're all just facing as a country every single day.

You know, it's like Christina said, read the room in your workplace, read the room in the the world, you know, and be aware of what's happening in your business, what's happening around you.

And just,

there's strength in that.

There's strength in that for when something does happen, that you feel that you have some power.

And that's really key, I think.

It's just like, that's, so there's your job, and here's the world, and just keep your eye on the bigger picture.

Well, you end the book with a collection of epiphanies.

In one, you write, what you've experienced, hopefully, is a capital R revelation.

You have options you never knew you had in worlds you've never explored, working with people you really respect, and hopefully you're not only inspired, you are prepared.

What do you most want all the cool girls who are watching us right now, listening to us, to know about getting fired?

It's not the end.

Yeah.

It is the beginning.

It can sound trite, but we promise you, even if you're shocked into this moment,

sit with it, rest.

Don't rest, you know, rest, but don't retreat.

And open your eyes up to what's out there.

And we promise you the reward is out there and be more on your own terms.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, echoing that, I mean, we wouldn't be here if we hadn't been fired.

You know, we kind of joke that we're now the poster girls for getting fired.

But we really, you know, we're proud of that.

And I think.

starting the conversation, reach out to people, let them know what you're going through, let them lift you up.

You have to let people know you want to be lifted and carried.

And I think that that is so important and was such a reminder.

How many people reached out to us in the moments that it happened?

It was so refreshing and so rewarding to have that network.

And, you know, just a reminder to everyone who's going through it, just keep your head up, you know, stay positive and you know, do some math for your dreams.

I go back to the fact that when your boss said,

you know, I'm going to let you create your own narrative, you're like, no, I want to tell people the truth that I've been fired.

And I think one of the things you all have done with this book, All the Cool Girls Getting Fired, I mean, listen, I hope that it's a best, best, best, best, bestseller.

And that it gets normalized, that we can say the words out loud.

There's no shame, no blame, no

you know, grief and sorrow attached to that.

That it's like, it's a fact of life.

And now I'm going to reset and use that set back to set myself up for something even more

attuned to what I really want to do.

I mean, I think

it's a wake-up call.

It's also a growth spurt.

It's such a great spurt.

I mean, I've had, you know, literally women coming up to me in the street saying, when's a booker?

I need it.

Oh, I got fired.

Oh, here's my friend.

She got fired.

And they're having drinks in a restaurant or whatever.

And I just go, you are so cool.

And just that moment of like, there's a community for you.

There's no shame.

You see the faces change.

You know, women light up and it's like, let's flip this.

Let's get a bit of bravado.

Let's get a bit of ownership and let's move on.

Let's change the culture.

Oh, I love that you've done this.

Thank you.

Mara Brown and Christina O'Neill, their inspiring new book, all.

The Cool Girls Get Fired, is available wherever books are sold.

And thank you, Brooke Baldwin and Adina, for sharing your stories.

Listeners, thank you for your valuable time.

Let's meet up again next week.

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Thanks, everybody.