The Making of The White Lotus, Scott’s Surprise Cameo, and Hollywood’s Shifting Landscape — with David Bernad

Transcript

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Speaker 2 Episode 338, the 338 calibers used for hunting larger deer species, including elk and moose. In 1938, Superman first appeared in comic books.

Speaker 2 I've often wondered what it would be like to have sex with Superman.

Speaker 2 Well, it hurt a lot, said the invisible man.

Speaker 2 I made that up myself, no joke.

Speaker 2 Go, go, go!

Speaker 2 Welcome to the 338th episode of the Prop GPod. What's happening?

Speaker 3 The dog is back in London.

Speaker 2 He's howling. He's howling.
He's fed up with the weather, but he's got a big fur coat so he can handle 55 and rainy. You know, the weather's not that bad here.

Speaker 2 It's actually, it's spectacular in London, a good 11 to 13 days a year. I mean, those days are just fantastic.
The other 352, not so much. Not so much.
Anyways, in Switzerland, went to Zermatt.

Speaker 2 One of the things I love about it is it doesn't have cars. It has these electric cars.
We stayed at this place called the Hotel Cherville.

Speaker 2 And we had a ski instructor that is a lingerie model and runs surf schools in the summer in Bali. And then at night in Zermatt runs her family's creperie.

Speaker 2 And we would stroll by and see this lyrically beautiful woman making crepes after she...

Speaker 2 taught my kids how to snowboard for eight hours. I'm like, Jesus Christ, it's like a fucking Cinemax film.
Is this for real?

Speaker 3 Seriously?

Speaker 2 Anyways, how did we we get here? In Zermont, back to London. Oh yeah, that's where we were.
Back in London. Had a wonderful time.
Tried to ignore the news.

Speaker 2 So America, what the fuck is going on? Is this a simulation? We're not going to talk about that. I'm done talking about it.

Speaker 2 Anyways, in today's episode, we speak with David Bernad, the Emmy winning executive producer of HBO's hit, The White Lotus. Oh my God.
Little bit of surprise coming your way on The White Lotus.

Speaker 2 Little bit of a Easter egg coming coming right at you. I'm not going to spoil it, but tune in.

Speaker 2 It is my favorite show since Game of Thrones, which I'm watching with my 14-year-old. It's a Rite of Passage for Us.
It has politics, sex, geography, magic, sibling rival.

Speaker 2 It has literally, literally, Game of Thrones has everything. I took my son.
to the beach in Nantucket because his mother said it was time for us to have the sex talk. So I took him down.

Speaker 2 I said, it's time for the sex talk. He let out a scream like I have never heard before of no

Speaker 2 and just begged me not to have the talk. And I said, fine, then we have to watch Game of Thrones because that'll give you 80 or 90% of everything you need to know.

Speaker 2 But anyways, I have been watching Game of Thrones with my 14-year-old, but I am really excited about season three of the White Lotus.

Speaker 2 They bring together something fairly simple, but it always has themes around. I think it's the Seven Deadly Sins.
And they just do such a fantastic job. And this season is no different.

Speaker 3 Tune in now.

Speaker 2 Okay, let's move on to some news. For the first time, the top 10% of earners, those making roughly a quarter of a million dollars or more a year, account for 50% of U.S.
consumer spending.

Speaker 2 30 years ago, that number was just 36%. So what does that mean? More money, more spending across the top quintile.
Now the economy is more dependent than ever on the ultra-wealthy.

Speaker 2 When I first saw this, though,

Speaker 2 it actually struck me that they're not spending more because I believe the top 10% control about 90% of the assets, meaning they have more assets, relatively speaking, than their spend, which means that they will save and invest more, which takes interest rates down, asset prices up, but isn't good for the economy.

Speaker 2 And one of the things I've talked about in terms of stimulus is that if you were to put more money in the hands of lower and middle-income people, the wonderful thing about lower and middle-income households, if you give them $100, they spend it, which results in a multiplier effect that's greater than if you give rich people money.

Speaker 2 By the way, the fact that the 10% are now responsible for half the consumer economy versus a third just speaks to a couple of things. One,

Speaker 2 how much money they have, but also a prioritization of experiences over things.

Speaker 2 The luxury market has actually kind of gone flat, but people are spending a ton of money on things like safaris and travel and private travel and experiences.

Speaker 2 I think a lot of this is sort of the YOLO coming out of COVID, and that is people are getting smarter.

Speaker 2 And I've read a lot of the research, it says people overestimate the happiness they'll get from things and they underestimate the happiness they'll get from experiences.

Speaker 2 In some, drive a Hyundai and take your husband to Africa. I have found that I'm spending all my money or most of my money on really two things, real estate in beautiful places.

Speaker 2 One, because it's a 0.1%

Speaker 2 strategy, and I'll come back to that. And I want my kids not to be able to avoid me when they're adults and think, well, it'd be more fun to go to Tijuana.
But yeah, my dad has a place in Aspen.

Speaker 2 We just have to have lunch with him every day. Boom.
Hopefully they're in Aspen. And two, I buy into this 0.1% strategy.
What do I mean by that? I think income inequality is only going to get worse.

Speaker 2 I'm going to fight it, but I think it's only going to get worse. I think the essentially the Republican Party and the ruling party is the right.

Speaker 2 They distract everybody with their kind of angry, coarse, anti-immigrant bullshit or whatever,

Speaker 2 whatever you want to call it. But what they're really trying to do is create controversy such that it's a misdirect where you look over here and avoid the compact they have with rich people.

Speaker 2 And that is a lot of rich people give some

Speaker 2 lip service to how upset they are about what's going on. But this is kind of the bargain that Trump and other right-wing governments have with rich people.
I'm going to cut your taxes.

Speaker 2 So you'll offer some sort of quote-unquote liberal bullshit faux concern. But you're really not going to get in the way of this.
Are you? Why?

Speaker 2 Because poor you, poor fucking you, your taxes are going to go down. And here's the thing.
I'm not that worried about me. Anyone I know in my life that needs access to Mesopestron is going to get it.

Speaker 2 Anyone I know that needs legal protection from anyone abusing them because of employee or a violation of their rights, they're going to be fine because I have a shit ton of money to buy lawyers, right?

Speaker 2 If for some reason they started rounding up, name your favorite special interest group, which could happen with an economic shock here in the United States. I don't think it happened in Britain.

Speaker 2 I do think it could happen in the United States now, which is feeling a lot like early 30s Germany. I have the money for a go back to get the fuck out of here.
Here's the bottom line.

Speaker 2 Money equals rights. And the violation of rights that takes place is from the far right.

Speaker 2 If you do believe it involves a violation of rights, you're protected from it if you're a rich person as long as you're getting richer.

Speaker 2 We are so focused on left versus right, we don't think about the real problem. The real problem or the real battle is up versus down.
And that is the bottom 99 versus the top one.

Speaker 2 And what we do is we divide and distract and anger the bottom 99. So they're not focused on the real battle here.

Speaker 2 And that is the Republican Party, in my view, taking money from the bottom 99 and putting it in the pockets of the top one. And this is another example of that.

Speaker 2 But we have income inequality that is absolutely out of control. And what you see across the wealthiest people is, in fact, they're exceptionally boring.
What do I mean by that? They all party in St.

Speaker 2 Bart's. They all send their kids to one of maybe 50 schools globally.
And they all want to live in one of a handful of places.

Speaker 2 Dubai, London, New York, Palm Beach, Aspen, maybe a little bit of LA, maybe Singapore. Not even so much.
Maybe a little bit of Hong Kong, but they're losing people. It used to be London.

Speaker 2 London is lost. And it's still going to be a place where rich people keep a home.
But a lot of people are no longer living here full-time because they passed this non-DOM

Speaker 2 tax act, which essentially people who, very wealthy people who are citizens elsewhere, could come here and pay essentially no tax.

Speaker 2 And then when the UK, understandably and theoretically and philosophically correctly, said, all right, you got to start paying some taxes, they said, fuck you, we're rich, we're mobile, we can move anywhere.

Speaker 2 And that's the problem with a quote-unquote common sense tax policy that's progressive is people forget that the very wealthy are the most mobile people in the world.

Speaker 2 And I personally have two friends who are very wealthy who have peaced out, who have left, who've said, yeah, I get that it makes sense for me to pay some taxes here, but I'd rather pay zero.

Speaker 2 So unless there's some sort of multilateral tax agreement, an alternative minimum tax across multiple nations, you're always going to have a race to the bottom. Anyways,

Speaker 2 back to rich people, there's too much prosperity being crammed into too few hands. The bottom 99 are reminded 210 times a day on their phone that they're not doing well.

Speaker 2 And then the echo effect, the epicenter of people not doing well is young people, because when a 50-year-old is not doing well, it's bad.

Speaker 2 But when a 25-year-old isn't doing well, it affects everybody in the household because everyone is used to their kids doing better than them. That's the bad news.

Speaker 2 Income inequality is going to get worse. The good news is it always self-corrects.
Always throughout history, when it gets to these levels, it self-corrects.

Speaker 2 More bad news, the means of self-correction are war, famine, and revolution. We'll be right back for our conversation with David Bernard.

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Speaker 2 Welcome back. Here's our conversation with David Bernad, the Emmy winning executive producer for HBO's The White Lotus.
Oh my God.

Speaker 3 Hello, gangster.

Speaker 2 Hello, a little god to the white to the lotus.

Speaker 2 David, where does this podcast find you?

Speaker 3 Los Angeles after two weeks on the road in Asia and D.C. So I've lost my voice, but happy to be home.

Speaker 2 So this show,

Speaker 2 if I was a, and there's a reason why I'm not an executive of HBO, but if I was pitched on the show, I'm not sure I would have seen it, it being this thing has sort of become a little bit of a cultural phenomen what do you think it is about this show that is tapped into when people ask me I say I love the white lotus I'm obsessed with it and they say why I have a if they ask me about game of thrones I can kind of explain why I'm obsessed with it and What is it about this show in your view that is sort of tapped into this kind of zeitgeist that's turned it into kind of this phenomen i should clarify i think if hbo was pitched this show they probably would have passed because to their credit they basically called mike white and said

Speaker 3 this is july of 2020 when covet had started they said do you have an idea that you could do in a bubble that can be on the air in 2021 we'll do it and mike said yeah i got one and he didn't even have an idea he basically had to come up with something in a month and they basically sent us off to hawaii they had no idea what it was.

Speaker 3 They just trusted in Mike. And we came back with season one of White Lotus.
But I think there's an honesty to the show that people respond to.

Speaker 3 I think, you know, Mike White, I think, is a genius and he, he's an observer of humanity, an observer of character. And I think he writes from a very authentic place.

Speaker 3 You know, Mike, we both love reality TV. Mike loves reality TV.
And I think he's tapping into what people love about reality TV, which is every person's is not all good or bad or funny or dramatic.

Speaker 3 We're all, you know, most people are all flavors. And so I think he writes characters in that way and people really respond to that.

Speaker 3 And I also think he talks about culture and the human experience in a very real, authentic way. And a lot of, not a lot of people are doing that.

Speaker 2 Give us a little bit of your backstory. How did you get to this position? And what exactly does an executive producer do? Like, what have you been doing for the last three or four months?

Speaker 3 Yeah. So I'm from DC, grew up there.
And, and, uh, you know, I, I wanted to be a producer since I was a little kid. I, I came across a movie shooting in a mall in D.C.

Speaker 3 called First Kid, the Sinbad movie when I was a kid and somehow talked my way onto the set.

Speaker 3 I met the director, I met Sinbad, I met the other stars, and I kind of was like, this is what I want to do when I grow up.

Speaker 3 So I started in the mailroom at UTA and really wanted to start at the bottom, really wanted to kind of

Speaker 3 see all aspects of the business. And I was very fortunate to to meet Mike White almost 20 years ago when I was at UTA.
And I've been working with him ever since.

Speaker 3 And, you know, my parents don't know what a producer does. I don't think anyone really knows what a producer does.
But I'm, I'm basically like the glue guy.

Speaker 3 I'm, I'm, every project requires something different. You know, I do a show called Jury Duty that's on Amazon.
That's a show that I originated.

Speaker 3 I'm intricately involved in the edit, intricately involved in the production, casting, all aspects of that.

Speaker 3 White Lotus is really, Mike's the genius of Mike, of White Lotus, and I'm there to support him. You know, I'm very involved in, you know, every aspect of White Lotus when Mike needs me.

Speaker 3 So for the last three months, you know, we've been in post.

Speaker 3 I give notes on the edit. You know, I push on HBO, whether it's about music, release date, marketing materials, promotion.
I'm involved in all aspects of that.

Speaker 3 And really, you know, I'm there every day with Mike. You know, we start, we start on it together from the origination to scouting to casting to locations to hiring of crew.

Speaker 3 And I'm there every day on set. So I kind of just, you know, I'm there.
I am there to solve issues and prevent issues from coming up.

Speaker 2 When I think about the White Lotus, there seems to be a theme or a certain,

Speaker 2 I don't know, someone told me that it's about, it's the different seven deadly sins.

Speaker 2 What are the creative anchors you try to hold on to?

Speaker 2 If you ended up doing a season eight, what do you think would be the common themes that would still be static through season eight that are present in one, two, and three?

Speaker 3 I mean, I think part of what makes the show,

Speaker 3 even in its third season, like our ratings came out yesterday and the show was up, I think, 92% from season one. So, sorry, from season two, up 40% week to week.
And I think...

Speaker 3 Part of that is, you know, what the thematic approach and what the idea of the show is is evolving. So I don't think we'd be able to say what, you know, season eight is.

Speaker 3 I think Mike is kind of responding to culture. And I think season one was definitely a reaction to what Mike was feeling in the moment with culture.

Speaker 3 And I think season two, which was kind of this, you know, it was a bedroom farce, but it really took on sexual politics, was a response to something Mike was feeling.

Speaker 3 I think season three is much darker than the previous seasons and it's a little bit more existential and was a little more angst. And I think that speaks to how Mike was feeling in the moment.

Speaker 3 And I think he's tackling existential themes and existential ideas. So it's always going to feel current in that way.
But what we're tackling, I think, is a reaction to something that Mike is feeling.

Speaker 2 I'm curious with casting because when I first saw the lineup, I

Speaker 2 how do you when you think of a character and you think, okay, does it immediately go, Parker Posey would be the right person person for this, or does she read and you decide that she brings life to the character?

Speaker 2 I would think casting would be such a,

Speaker 2 is it an art or a science? How do you go about it?

Speaker 3 I mean, it's a good question. I think it's an it's both, possibly.
I think it's definitely something that evolves and you kind of learn and you kind of sharpen your instincts.

Speaker 3 But it really, for us, the approach from season one has always been: don't give in to the temptation to just cast someone, you know, famous or a name and really approach it with an authenticity in casting people that

Speaker 3 feel like they embody the characters and the traits of the storytelling.

Speaker 3 Because really, Mike's, what's genius about Mike's storytelling, it's not really, they're characters, but those characters are just pawns in a bigger thematic idea.

Speaker 3 And each storyline is meant to resonate on a deeper level than just a character story. There's a, there's a deeper theme to each story that's being told.

Speaker 3 And so you really need characters that immediately, visually, you you get it, and they feel authentic to the story that's being told. So,

Speaker 3 you know, 98% of the actors audition. There's someone like Parker Posey, who Mike has known for a very long time and has, you know, a body of work that speaks to exactly what we were looking for.

Speaker 3 So someone like Parker didn't audition, but, you know,

Speaker 3 everyone else on this season did. And I think we go into casting kind of blind to names.
We're not looking for names. We're looking for the right person.
And it's a a process.

Speaker 3 And I think the science to it really is kind of never deviating from those ideas. Don't try to get seduced by big names.
Really be thorough.

Speaker 3 Don't rush and feel 100% confident whenever we make a decision. And it's a long process.
The casting process is 10 weeks. Usually it's grueling.

Speaker 3 Meredith Tucker, who's our casting director, Mike went to college with. I've been working with her for 20 years.
So we have a great shorthand. She's amazing.

Speaker 3 And HBO, you know, they're, they're great partners where they trust us.

Speaker 3 And even if they might not agree with a casting decision, they, you know, they always give us the authority to do creatively what we feel is best.

Speaker 2 You've been in the business for a couple of decades. Describe,

Speaker 2 give us your sense.

Speaker 2 My understanding is an executive producer at the end of the day, you've got to have business acumen. You got to understand budgets.
You've got to understand trends.

Speaker 2 You're basically managing a small business that kind of gets funding, starts up, and then closes down, and then you hopefully monetize it.

Speaker 2 What do you see are the major trends in Hollywood and how has that shifted your approach to the business?

Speaker 3 You know, I've been in the business 21, 22 years now. And I think for me, what I've seen is, you know, there was an expansion and now a contraction.

Speaker 3 And I think the biggest difference between, you know, 2025 and 2023, I would say as a producer, 2023, you could go out with a project and maybe it's, you know, 50-50, it sells and you're going to put a lot of energy and time into that.

Speaker 3 And 10% chance it gets made. It's a flyer.
And I'm going to kind of take 10 projects out. Six of them might be flyers like that.
Those projects aren't selling right now.

Speaker 3 So I'm really trying to kind of refocus my energy and refocus my time on projects I feel 80% about, 90% about, that when I take it out into the marketplace, they're going to sell.

Speaker 3 And, you know, that contraction feels like a just a natural contraction. There was possibly too many shows being made and those shows weren't working.

Speaker 3 And I think there was just a, you know, it made it harder for shows to break out. So for me as a producer, you kind of just got to ride the wave.
I think to be a producer, you have to be an optimist.

Speaker 3 I think every producer would tell you that. So I wake up every morning going, today's the day that my project's going to get green light.
I'm going to.

Speaker 3 come out with a great idea that you know this show or movie is going to be a hit and i approach every day in that way and so

Speaker 3 because i take that approach I don't really change what I'm doing for better or worse.

Speaker 3 I really, I look for ideas and I look for writers or actors that I'm passionate about and themes I'm passionate about. And that's how I approach every project.

Speaker 3 I don't really kind of view the marketplace in a broader sense and kind of try to game the system. I just try to.
find things that I'm excited about.

Speaker 3 And that's really, you know, to take it back to White Lotus.

Speaker 3 That's really all White Lotus was was Mike telling stories that he was passionate about, casting people he was excited about, and not trying to think about how do I make a hit or how do I, you know, speak to a broader audience.

Speaker 2 I want to put forward two theses or observations as an outsider who like, I like to think I understand economics and I'm fascinated with the industry and you respond to each of them.

Speaker 2 The first thesis is that what Japan did to Detroit,

Speaker 2 kind of Netflix is doing to Los Angeles.

Speaker 2 And that is, I read that of the $18 billion content budget that Netflix spends annually on content, that for the first time, more than half of it is being spent overseas.

Speaker 2 And at the same time, I also read the production's down 40% in LA.

Speaker 2 Is the globalization of the media industry that's checking capital kind of out of America, specifically out of Los Angeles, is it as evident as I think it is?

Speaker 3 Maybe, you know, it's a great question.

Speaker 3 Again, for as long as I've been in the business, production in LA and California has been an issue. I think it's, you know,

Speaker 3 not having the numbers in front of me and maybe those numbers, production in Los Angeles has decreased in the last, you know, 15, 20 years, which probably has, but I think it's always been an issue.

Speaker 3 And,

Speaker 3 you know, there's, there's a push and pull, right? So you want more people to be employed. You want more shows to be made.
You want more movies to be made. That requires a certain amount of budget.

Speaker 3 And then when you have a budget in front of you, you want to make 10 movies as opposed to eight.

Speaker 3 The best way to accomplish that may be to go to Canada, to go to, you know, X country that Bulgaria, Hungary, Eastern Europe that are offering certain rebates so you can make more for less.

Speaker 3 And so I think it's a, it's a fundamental issue and it's something that California needs to look at is how can we get proper tax credits, production credits to keep productions in Los Angeles?

Speaker 3 Because, you know, as a producer,

Speaker 3 I live in Los Angeles. This is where my family is.
This is where my friends are. I want to be in Los Angeles.
So I'm not incentivized to leave.

Speaker 3 But if a, if Netflix or Paramount or Sony or HBO comes to me and they say, you have $10 million to make this movie or show, and I'm looking at the math and I can get 15 extra days if I go to Toronto and I can, you know, and I can pay more for cast or pay more for directors if I go to Vancouver.

Speaker 3 It's an easy decision, to be honest, you know, even though it makes my life harder and it's not something I want to do. And so it is so much easier to make movies and shows in Los Angeles full stop.

Speaker 3 But until we solve the production tax credit issue, I think this will always be a conversation.

Speaker 2 Yeah, both cities you mentioned, you mentioned two cities in Canada. Is Canada,

Speaker 2 is that your go-to if you're talking about talent versus economics or stack ranked?

Speaker 2 What do you think are the most popular places on a risk-adjusted basis when you look at cost versus access to talent and beautiful locales?

Speaker 3 I've been fortunate. I've shot in every tax.
I've shot Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver, Atlanta, New Orleans, or Louisiana. Like I've shot in every one of these prominent rebate cities.

Speaker 3 You know, the thing as a producer, what you're weighing is, you know, there's always weather. Weather is always a concern and an issue.
And each of these cities have different challenges.

Speaker 3 You know, Los Angeles, again, is the beauty of LA is give or take, maybe a month or two, you're going to get great weather. But then you're also looking at local crew, local casting.

Speaker 3 And does that city have

Speaker 3 you know a crew base and a talent actor base for you know for these smaller parts that it makes it worthwhile to shoot there you know i'm doing a movie for netflix this summer we're going to be shooting in new york new jersey there's a really prominent rebate there um now new jersey i know a lot of productions are going there and so that for me would be number one um i've had a lot of success in atlanta and in new orleans louisiana i think those are both really great cities to be honest my favorite city i've shot in and i've shot a movie there and the tv show there is montreal crew is amazing montreal is the best city in north America.

Speaker 3 Great city, great food, great nightlife.

Speaker 3 And so Montreal is actually a really, it's funny because I, Mike White and I shot a movie there, Brad Status, a Spencer movie, which I think you would love, Scott.

Speaker 3 And I've since told a lot of friends to go shoot productions there. And it's a really, they have a great tax credit, great crew, great local actors and great lifestyle.
So.

Speaker 2 Second thesis that the opacity of information when you run something on Netflix, you don't know how, other than them them renewing the season, you don't really know how well it's doing.

Speaker 2 Jennifer Anniston's agent knew that Friends was the anchor to the Thursday night and could kind of reverse engineer to how much ad revenue they're making and had the confidence to go ask for a million dollars per episode per cast member.

Speaker 2 And now that you really don't know what's working and what isn't,

Speaker 2 it's essentially what I perceive is a giant flow of capital from the industry, from the human capital to the shareholders of Netflix. Am I oversimplifying what's gone on there?

Speaker 3 I have a

Speaker 3 controversial take on this because this is an issue that I've debated a lot.

Speaker 3 And I've been on all sides of this. So I had a show on NBC called Superstore, and I knew the numbers.
We did 113 episodes.

Speaker 3 It's the most successful sitcom on NBC in the last 15 years, 20 years. And I knew all the numbers, and we would renegotiate.
every two years, whatever it was.

Speaker 3 And I wouldn't say that we won the negotiations, right? I did a show for Amazon called Jury Duty.

Speaker 3 Did not know any of the numbers. We're not told a single number.
And when we renegotiated, I would, I would, I feel like I won that negotiation.

Speaker 3 And to me, it's, it boils down to as, as a, you know, a seller of product in the supply and demand world of Hollywood.

Speaker 3 You don't even need to know the numbers because you can feel the numbers when you negotiate. And ultimately, the success of a movie or show, in my opinion,

Speaker 3 having that information doesn't really has not benefited me in my anecdotal experience.

Speaker 3 The energy from the buyer will dictate how well your show did.

Speaker 3 Because I saw the numbers on Superstore and I thought it did amazing, but what I discovered in my negotiations is it wasn't profitable for them. And it still isn't profitable, I'm being told.

Speaker 3 And that's a different conversation to the funky number, you know, the funky economics of studio accounting.

Speaker 3 but you can feel the energy in a negotiation when on the other side if your show is working or not and so without knowing any of my jury duty numbers i know the show worked by the nature of the negotiation and how bad they wanted that show for a second season that's my my opinion and and i know that might seem ignorant But it again, like having the information has never really benefited me.

Speaker 3 In White Lotus too, like in our renegotiation season, a season, we don't have the full scope of that show's numbers, but I know it's done well by the nature of HBO's desire and demand for us to do another season.

Speaker 2 We'll be right back.

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Speaker 2 Take yourself back 22 years,

Speaker 2 and you had the knowledge of knowing where this business is going to be today, or if someone's starting out in the business, any kind of macro thoughts on their career that this part of the business is going to be the easiest place to find employment, this is the medium, the size of the screen, any advice to a, you know, a 22-year-old, Dave, starting in this business?

Speaker 2 What do you see as the major themes and how does someone foot their efforts to trying to take advantage of those themes in the industry?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, that's a great question and i i you know i do a lot of coffees and zooms with people and my advice to anyone starting in the business would be if there's anything else on earth you can do i would go do that

Speaker 3 so so your general advice is don't yeah that would be my advice like because i think this is a it's in you talk about a lot about this i know and it's an incredibly difficult business and i think making a living in this business has gotten harder and harder for whatever reason.

Speaker 3 And I think that I, this is something that I wake up every day and I, I live it, I breathe it. It's something I love and I feel incredibly fortunate to be doing.

Speaker 3 And I can't imagine doing anything else on earth. And unless you have that kind of energy and passion for creating content, I would go do something else.

Speaker 3 And I look back and I like, you know, think about my personal journey and I don't even, like, there's no straight line to it.

Speaker 3 It's just a series of decisions that I made in the moment that somehow somehow worked out.

Speaker 3 And I think there was a, you know, and again, there's an incredible amount of rejection and no's and closed doors on my journey. And I remember people would say to me, oh, you're so lucky.

Speaker 3 And I would think to myself, well, you sure maybe, but you also haven't seen the insane amount of hours and dedication and sacrifice I put into this in my 20s and 30s to get to this level.

Speaker 3 And still, you know, something like White Lotus happened as a result of COVID and a bunch of series of fortunate events that led to White Lotus.

Speaker 3 And so it's not like there's no straight line and there's no advice I can give other than go do something else unless you are willing to kind of sacrifice your, you know, seven days a week and most of your life to this business.

Speaker 3 And, you know, I was, I was reading an article yesterday.

Speaker 3 There was, you know, some article with this like, you know, 35-year-old podcaster that created a network about true crime that she's, you know, clearing like 40 million in profit every year.

Speaker 3 And I found myself thinking about like uh if i'd give myself like advice to my younger self i'd be like get into pot you know you're you know the dev business but i'm like get into some some other new media business because you know it's making filming tv is really challenging really heartbreaking and again just difficult to make a living and i'm and i'm and i'm saying this as someone who's incredibly fortunate and who's doing it and that that would be my advice a little cynical and a little little bleak but it's true

Speaker 2 What have you worked on that surprised you most of the upside or the downside in terms of its commercial success? Like, what did you think was going to be bigger than it was?

Speaker 2 And what was bigger than you thought it might be?

Speaker 3 I mean, Jury Duty is a good example. And I don't know if you've seen it, but it's an interesting anecdote.
It originated just I was watching a Netflix documentary on a couch.

Speaker 3 had a kernel of an idea, called a producer friend. It's about 2017, 2018.
We started talking about it. We kind of came up with this concept, brought it to writers.
It was a long journey.

Speaker 3 When we went out and pitched it, basically everyone passed except for this woman, Lauren Anderson, who was taking over a segment of Amazon. It was called, at that point, it was called IMDb-TV.

Speaker 3 They rebranded to Freevy. So, you know, Amazon proper had passed on it.
It didn't fit their algorithm or whatever their calculus was.

Speaker 3 And we just so happened to have perfect timing with this woman, Lauren Anderson, who, who basically invested in us and bet on us.

Speaker 3 It was a crazy concept. It was a verbal pitch, 10 minutes, and they gave us a healthy amount of money to make a very experimental show.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 when the show launched, no one watched it. And we got bad reviews and it didn't really work.

Speaker 3 And then over a weekend, someone on TikTok posted about it. And all of a sudden, it just became this hit.

Speaker 3 And it moved from freevie to Amazon proper and then was a hit on Amazon. And so it was, I still don't know why it worked.
And maybe people just, maybe it was so original.

Speaker 3 And, and, but it kind of came out of nowhere. And, and,

Speaker 3 um, that one surprised me the most. I think,

Speaker 3 you know, I did a show called White House Plumbers with Woody Harrelson.

Speaker 2 Fantastic.

Speaker 3 And Justin. Yeah.
And that one, and that one was a surprise. I think the time, when that came out, I think we just kind of, it came out too late.
I think that one was delayed because of COVID.

Speaker 3 And I'm really proud of that show. And I think by the time it came out, people were over, you know, nonfiction, historical nonfiction.
And I feel like

Speaker 3 over, you know, over saturized with political dramas. And that one I feel like should have been worked better than it did.
And I'm still very proud of it.

Speaker 3 And that one, you know, that was one I also worked on for 10 years before it was made. And that one was really personal to me.
And, and I wish had done better. But again, there's no rhyme or reason.

Speaker 3 You can't really time it. And that's why it's a tough business.

Speaker 3 You can't really, you can all you can do is control what you make and whether audiences find it or not is so out of your control and really comes down to a lot of times timing and the universe.

Speaker 2 As my listeners will know, I bring on guests mostly to talk about me. So let's get, let's bring this back to me.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 I met David through a mutual friend, Ben Stiller. You've been friends with him for several decades.
I've only been friends with Ben for a couple years.

Speaker 2 And we hit it off and you reached out to me and said, is there any way I could talk you into doing a small cameo in the white lotus? And my first response was, Well, how much would that cost me?

Speaker 2 And so I'm super excited.

Speaker 2 David was generous enough to include me in a small role where I'm, well, you explain it. Who am I, David?

Speaker 3 I want to say one thing.

Speaker 3 Your podcasts, both of them are, you know, if you, if my Spotify rap, it's number one. both your podcasts.
And if I,

Speaker 3 if I had to define my personality or someone asked me,

Speaker 3 who kind of encapsulates your personality and point of view on the world? It's Scott Galloway. And so

Speaker 3 that dinner with Ben was a, for me, meeting my number one celebrity crush. And

Speaker 3 I have a text thread with six of my guy friends. And we've been texting every day for 15 years, I want to say.
And

Speaker 3 it is the embodiment of male friendship. It's, it's everything.
It's every. every concept, but you are a frequent point of conversation.
And

Speaker 3 this is the ultimate compliment. I think we use your, we will reference you or use one of your articles or something you said on one of the podcasts to prove a point.

Speaker 3 And so just so you are, you are our friends, my friend Neil Paris, Joe Port, Neil Sharley, these guys, we talk about you every day, probably. So meeting you was a big, big thrill for me.

Speaker 3 Getting to, you know, developing a friendship with you has been a big thrill. And so we were casting a part for a lawyer and we needed someone that, you know, was kind of

Speaker 3 could deliver emotionalist, very just to the point dialogue. And so we were on set and I said to Mike, I'm like, what about Scott Galloway? And Mike's a huge fan of yours also.

Speaker 3 And so, you know, I was thrilled when you said yes. I was nervous that maybe you wouldn't be able to deliver.
And so if you don't mind, I'll tell you the story. So we were in.
I was in Kosamui.

Speaker 3 You sent me

Speaker 3 your first recordings. I listened to to it.
I almost shit my pants because I was like, I don't know if this sucks. This sucks.
I don't know if this is going to fly.

Speaker 3 And I think I had, then I heard you mention it on,

Speaker 3 I think on Pivot. And so I was extra nervous that I was going to somehow disappoint you.
I did not want to disappoint you.

Speaker 3 And so I called, I think I got, maybe I was back in LA or might have been still in Thailand. And I called you and I said, would you mind possibly re-recording?

Speaker 3 You know, I was trying to be subtle about it. I didn't want you to think that I was nervous.

Speaker 2 You were so management. You're like, it's great, but we think it can be better.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 I sent it to the editor. The editor is like, I don't know if this is going to work.
And then I was like, I had the, you know, I'll give myself credit.

Speaker 3 I had the smart idea of sending Jason Isaacs over to your apartment. Just, you know, I was like, maybe Jason could help you read with you.

Speaker 3 And I remember I was like very anxious. I was like, Jason, call me as soon as I get out of there.
Jason called me and he goes, we did an hour of takes. It could be all dog shit.

Speaker 3 Maybe there's something in there. And I have to say, genuinely, you are great in the show.

Speaker 3 In those hour of recordings, we found gold. And as soon as Mike heard it, he loved it.
Honestly, like it was, it was like, okay, this is great. I know Mike told me he wrote you.

Speaker 3 So you know, so you know I'm not full of shit. And, and I will be honest, like, and on my text thread, I was like keeping everyone updated.
I'm like, we might have to cut Scar from the show.

Speaker 3 I'm freaking out.

Speaker 2 I love that. Because they love that.

Speaker 3 We need to talk about it too. And so I was really nervous, but I'm glad it worked out.
And

Speaker 3 I'm hoping this is the beginning of a long Hollywood career for you. And you become, and when you win and at me, you have to thank me on stage.
That's all I ask.

Speaker 2 Well, you don't know this. I've had five TV shows already, Dave.
They've all been canceled within two or three weeks. So I have a face for podcasting, but I'll give you my side of the story.

Speaker 2 I thought I did an amazing job and I sent it to you and you were very supportive. And I remember remember telling my, my, I take headcare, oh my God, I killed it.
I was so good.

Speaker 2 And then I got the message from you saying, we think we can do better. And this handsome guy shows up to my apartment with movie star good looks.
I didn't know who Jason Isaac was.

Speaker 2 I didn't put the two and two together. I'm like, I'm like, dude, you're the guy from The Patriot.

Speaker 2 And he's, he's actually one of these very accomplished British actors. And by the way, I think in the White Lotus, the first two episodes, I think he kind of owns the screen whenever he's on it.

Speaker 2 I think Parker is amazing because he's just so quirky. But I think Jason kind of owns the screen whenever he's on it.

Speaker 2 But anyways, he came over, he was on his way to a tennis lesson, this like handsome guy, and he's like, I'm here to help. And we went into my studio.

Speaker 2 And for an hour, I'd hit a line and he'd go like, okay, this is the situation. I'm about to fire you.
And you don't know what to say. And you're a little scared.
Hit the line.

Speaker 2 And then he'd be like, no, hit it again. Dial it up.
And I walked away or he would say to me, this guy's such an asshole and you just found out. He's like, okay, that's good.

Speaker 2 But now this guy's such an asshole and you just found out he's having an affair with your wife. He's like, let it sink in.
Let it sink in. Now hit it.

Speaker 2 And he made me do this over and over with different situations and different emotions and different feelings.

Speaker 2 And I walked away from that hour with such an appreciation for just how fucking hard it is what you do. Because I thought, oh, I've, I've been in boardrooms.
I know how to own a room.

Speaker 2 I know how to deliver. something unemotionally.
That's not it. That's not enough in Hollywood to really get across the book.
There's so much more that goes into it.

Speaker 2 And people don't appreciate just how fucking difficult it is to bring out the emotions and the resonance and the logic and move an audience.

Speaker 2 And I'm not saying, I'm not saying that scene was able to do it, but you're able to do it. And so are other creatives.
And when this guy walked out of my house, my tech guy was there, Drew.

Speaker 2 And he's on the line now. And I remember saying to Drew, I'm not sure, but I think that guy just turned chicken shit into chicken salad.

Speaker 2 And he was so good. This is an actor.

Speaker 2 I don't even, I don't, I'm not sure he's even directed before, but he was in my face, sweating, burning calories, giving me weird, strange advice to try and get my voice up, down, try and put me in the right frame.

Speaker 2 And I remember thinking, what these people do, whatever they're making, they're not making enough because what this is, is hard.

Speaker 2 And it was such an illuminating experience for me. So

Speaker 2 thank you for that. It gave me a new appreciation for the art form because I think a lot of people think that acting is just like showing up and being who you are.
Oh my God, it's not.

Speaker 2 It was one of the most difficult, taxing hours I've ever had. It was really,

Speaker 2 I can't imagine what it's like to be on set and have all this alchemy and it's not working. And then to try to coach people through it.

Speaker 2 It's got to be, you know, you are juggling, I would think, just a ton of plates, except the plates are actors, directors, cinematographers. It must be just be incredibly difficult.

Speaker 2 Your thoughts, Dave.

Speaker 3 Imagine that experience with 200 people looking at you and

Speaker 3 the stress of a schedule, trying to get through the scene, losing light, and all of that. And then for actors to be able to perform on set under that pressure and deliver great performances, it is a

Speaker 3 true talent and is not easy. But, you know, and it's funny, Jason Isaacs is an incredibly accomplished guy and he loves acting.

Speaker 3 He like, I think he took so much pleasure in that hour he spent with you.

Speaker 3 I think he like really, he's the kind of guy who would talk about acting and would be acting 24 hours a day if someone would pay him or he would do it for free, honestly.

Speaker 3 But yeah, I have, you know, I've been in, I make little cameos and, and most of the stuff I do. And I've been, I pop up in White Lotus.

Speaker 3 Every time I'm on set and I'm in a scene and I don't have any dialogue. Usually it's kind of, you know, I'm doing some sort of action.
I'm like, thank fucking God.

Speaker 3 I don't want to be an actor because it is a hard hard job to kind of and also to give yourself to a camera and be that vulnerable but you know it also speaks to how talented directors are to be able to manage that you know and you know everyone has an ego right and so you're basically going up to someone and going

Speaker 3 that was kind of shitty can you do it a different way or your instincts are off do it my way and how do you deliver that in a way that doesn't offend them and you know get what you want out of the actor but yeah it's a,

Speaker 3 it's tough. It's all, it's a, it's a tough business.
And again, it speaks to, you know, great performances are, are not easy to come by.

Speaker 2 So just as we wrap up here, a lot of young men listen to the show and they hear someone successful like you and they think, I'd like to be that guy.

Speaker 2 Can you talk a little bit about growing up who were really the big influences in your life, people or kind of situations that sort of changed your life?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, this is something that I, you know, I really love about your work and what you talk about and something that really resonates with me.

Speaker 3 And, you know, I, I, my parents are both Hungarian immigrants and my, my grandparents are all Holocaust survivors.

Speaker 3 And, you know, my father is someone who, you know, he didn't speak the language when he immigrated from Budapest.

Speaker 3 He ended up in Montreal and eventually in America, but he's someone my grandfather made sure my father you know, really learned what work ethic is and an appreciation for work.

Speaker 3 And that's something my father instilled in me.

Speaker 3 And he was probably my first mentor, but I had a English teacher and a basketball coach named Mike Hibbs who changed my life and introduced me to storytelling and

Speaker 3 was so tough on me from a place of love and a place that really responded.

Speaker 3 So when I started at UTA and I was in the mail room, nothing was ever going to be as difficult and challenging as my basketball coach and English teacher and how he pushed me.

Speaker 3 And that male mentorship and really changed my life.

Speaker 3 And I told my this, you know, my English teacher, Mike Hibbs, when I was in high school, that I was one day going to fly him out out to a premiere when i make my first movie and i flew him out for the white lotus premiere two weeks ago and it was almost 30 years to when i told him i would do that and having him there was so moving for me and i think moving for him and and you know he's someone who's dedicated his life to mentoring young men whether it's on the basketball court or or in the english class in in you know english class and and i think for me i wanted him to him to see what his mentorship meant to me and what I was able to accomplish.

Speaker 3 And I feel very fortunate I had that relationship. And you talk a lot about this.
And even my, my text thread, I was referencing my six buddies, we push each other every day.

Speaker 3 And those friendships really

Speaker 3 ground you and they keep you humble, but they also push you in a way. And I would say that that's really why I'm here today, honestly, talking to you is were those relationships.

Speaker 2 And whenever I've, I've known you for that long, but you're, it seems like you're always in like, you know, eight time zones away. How do you, and I I know very little about your personal life.

Speaker 2 How do you, and maybe you don't, how do you establish any sort of momentum or attraction in a relationship?

Speaker 3 I don't. I mean, I'm single.
I'm, I'm 44. And, and,

Speaker 3 you know, that's part, that's a part of my life I feel like I've sacrificed to kind of get to where I am currently.

Speaker 3 And, and I've tried to maintain those relationships, but part of being a producer and, and

Speaker 3 part of being a producer is actually there doing the work. It almost becomes all-encompassing.

Speaker 3 So it's hard at night to give yourself emotionally or in the morning before work because you're either your tank is at zero or you're distracted.

Speaker 3 And that's something that, you know, I've, that's something that I haven't figured out also in my life and how to find that balance and something that I'm, you know, I need to work on and be better at because, you know, and it's, and, you know, I have another really great mentor, one of the partners at CAA, who right before I went to go do White Lotus season three

Speaker 3 said to me, you sent me an email and he said, you know, I really, I'd love for you to come by CAA and see me before you leave. And I thought he was going to talk about some work stuff.

Speaker 3 And I went to his office and he said, you know, I don't want to talk about work. You're doing great and I'm really proud of you.

Speaker 3 What I want to talk about is your personal life and the fact I don't want you to end up like me. And how can we change? that part of your life.

Speaker 3 And he, you know, and he took an interest and that's, you know, that really meant a lot to me. And it's something that I've been thinking about.

Speaker 3 And how do I, how do I find that balance and that's something i haven't figured out yet

Speaker 3 and what do you do for sort of meditation or relaxation or just to stay kind of centered given the amount of anxiety and insecurity in your industry i mean i'm not just i i listen to pivot i listen i'm not kidding oh yeah i'm not joking that's what everybody needs i'm not joking like i i'm not kidding when i say

Speaker 3 you know all my downtime i every flight

Speaker 3 you you kind of narrated my experience in thailand and you know we i must have been on 45 flights last year you know, in and out of Thailand. And I listen, I would listen to Prof G or your Pivot.

Speaker 3 I mean, I, for me, you know, I watch a lot of reality TV, to be honest, and, and listen to podcasts. And, and,

Speaker 3 you know, finding a good hobby or getting into meditation, something I need to also figure out.

Speaker 3 I have a lot of work to do on myself is basically what I'm learning from this conversation, but I really, I haven't found that, that thing yet that helps me fully disconnect.

Speaker 3 Because, you know, even listening to pivot or listening listening to, you know, that to me is partly that's not work. I basically have taken a lot of good stock advice from you.

Speaker 3 You've made me some good money, so I owe you a dinner next time I see you.

Speaker 2 But I think I owe you. No.

Speaker 2 When my kids hear me in the white lotus, I owe you. I haven't told them.
I can't tell you how excited I haven't told them. We're going to watch it.

Speaker 2 It's going to be, you have brought, you are going to bring so much credibility to me amongst my 14 and 17 year olds. So I owe you.

Speaker 2 Just a couple more serious questions before we go. Anyone in your life you lost or that's not around that you wish you could say something to?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I

Speaker 3 when I was when I was working at UTA and I was an assistant and

Speaker 3 that was one of the best experience of my life being in the going from the mailroom working for a partner, David Kramer, there, who, who also was a huge mentor. Like he was a huge mentor in my life.

Speaker 3 And he would, every Monday morning, I'd come in and he'd say, how many scripts did you read this weekend? And if I, you know, and I would say six, he goes, that's not good enough.

Speaker 3 Eight, that's not good enough. You know, so he really pushed me my work ethic.

Speaker 3 And I met this young assistant named James Cap, Jay Kaplan, James Kaplan, who was working for these directors, Daddy, and Ferris. And we struck up a really amazing friendship.

Speaker 3 And he helped me find the strength to leave UTA and go kind of really pursue my creative dreams. And we were starting a company and we had actually sold our first project.

Speaker 3 We were negotiating a producing deal together. And, you know, we, he died suddenly.
He had a brain aneurysm at 28

Speaker 3 and he collapsed. And I rushed to UCLA Hospital.
I was there at his bedside and he passed away and he had just gotten married. He just directed his first commercial.

Speaker 3 And again, we had just sold our first project. And, you know, I dedicate every movie and show I do, I put him in the dedication and

Speaker 3 I think about him every day. And for me, I don't think I'd be, I definitely want to be where I'm at.
now without him and that relationship.

Speaker 3 And we talked every day and we were such a great sounding board and it was such a huge loss and so i mean i wish he was here to kind of see what i've been able to accomplish and for me to tell him i love him and how much he meant to me and how much you know his support as a friend you know during some tough times and in my 20s really really helped me

Speaker 2 and last thing uh anybody and this can be serious not serious you'd just love to give a shout out to and have them be surprised that if and when they hear about this you just are thinking of just something someone you're thinking about and anything you'd like to say to them and it'll get back to them.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, Neil Paris,

Speaker 3 it's really my group of friends because we talk about you every day. Neil Paris, Neil Shaw, Joe Port, Ravi Patel,

Speaker 3 Evan Winokur, Mayar Seti. That's my text thread.

Speaker 3 Like I told you, you come up almost daily. And I think they were the first persons.
first people I told that I was coming on the show.

Speaker 3 I think there's probably a, you know, like in every great group of male friends, they're, they're probably jealous, they're competitive but also proud of me and so i think uh i'm really uh yeah

Speaker 2 i think and i and also each of them are like you better shut us out on the podcast well box checked david burnad is the emmy winning executive producer for hbo's the white lotus who's also known for producing uncharted jury duty enlightened and and i didn't know this white house plumber he joined us from los angeles david you are so far far ahead of where i was i didn't appreciate just how precious and wonderful it is to have the kind of the friend group you have.

Speaker 2 And what you're going to find is that you are the average and there's signs of this of those five guys.

Speaker 2 And so you guys building and loving each other, it just, it's, it's this, it's not only incredibly rewarding, it's a smart thing to do because you guys will progress and you'll fall together.

Speaker 2 And I'm telling you.

Speaker 2 In 15 years, you're going to look back hopefully on your kids and your career and you're going to feel great, but it almost means nothing. It's almost as if it doesn't happen without that text group.

Speaker 2 And you're just a great exam. I'm just so happy for your success and that you found you have your like tribe of people to share it with.
Thanks so much, David. And again, thanks for the opportunity.

Speaker 2 This was such a treat for me.

Speaker 3 Thank you, Scott.

Speaker 2 Algebra of happiness: when you're overwhelmed with information overload, how do you respond? This isn't about stress management.

Speaker 2 It's about how to, if you're in an organization and we just have so much information and different

Speaker 2 touch points, or you are barraged with information that you find is like outrageous or there's too many things going on. I'm obviously speaking about what's going on across our government right now.

Speaker 2 And I think it's a purposeful strategy to sort of blitzkrieg you with information such that you don't focus on their true objectives or what's really important.

Speaker 2 And it's easy to feel kind of flat-footed and how do you strike back. And I, for about a week, just felt sort of overwhelmed and didn't know what to do.

Speaker 2 And I don't like the idea of being offended and outraged and responding to everything. And I think there's just some basics around communication and responding effectively when people.

Speaker 2 are kind of in your face or things are happening at work that you feel overloaded by because there's so many things that upset you.

Speaker 2 And the first is to respond in a thoughtful way and recognize you don't need to respond to everything. You need to prioritize.

Speaker 2 At the end of the day, what's really important here? There might be things that are outrageous.

Speaker 2 The most recent one is I've heard the Trump administration is thinking about advocating for or pardoning Andrew Tate.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that's outrageous.

Speaker 2 Who the fuck cares with some loser in Romania that was,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 2 spending time sex trafficking or in a webcam business and trying to sign up vulnerable young men to his crypto unit? Who the fuck cares?

Speaker 2 But that's look over here. That's not important.
You don't have to respond to everything. Take a beat.
You don't have to respond immediately to everything and shout into Twitter or into TikTok.

Speaker 2 That's not, the world doesn't need to hear from you on everything.

Speaker 2 And then bring, when you do respond, one, bring, pick one or two issues that you feel especially strongly about that you think deserve priority and that you, one, have some domain expertise in, and also bring in outside experts and facts and try and be very thoughtful and methodical and unemotional.

Speaker 2 If you can be offended, you can be manipulated. And when you're offended all the fucking time, it just shows, quite frankly, you're a little bit weak and a little bit easily manipulated.

Speaker 2 This is how you effectively counter punch. Because keep in mind, a lot of people will try and overwhelm you.

Speaker 2 You know, when you get an argument with your spouse and they're losing and they immediately start bringing up something else, okay, don't go there. Don't go there.

Speaker 2 Or they try and gaslight you with something else. Be disciplined.
Be an adult. Be a warrior around this stuff.
That is, slow down. You don't need to respond to everything.

Speaker 2 Pick the one or two issues that are most important to you. Come with data.
Come with experts. Be reasoned.
Be thoughtful. This is information warfare, right? This is storytelling versus storytelling.

Speaker 2 You don't have to respond to anything. And if you can figure out a way not to be offended by everything, that means you are a mark.
You are what they want. You are easily manipulated.

Speaker 2 This episode was produced by Jennifer Sanchez. Our intern is Dan Shallon.
Drew Burroughs is our technical director. Thank you for listening to the Profit Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Speaker 2 We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice, as read by George Hahn. And please follow our Profit Markets pod wherever you get your pods for new episodes every Monday and Thursday.

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