Can Democrats Win Back America? — with Gov. Gretchen Whitmer

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Episode 358.

358 is the country code for Finland.

In 1958, NASA was founded.

Leaked NASA documents show, and this is a true story, that the moon landing was actually done in a studio

on the moon.

Jesus, what is with these conspiracy weirdos?

They seem like they're more worried about their conspiracy being true or not true than actual pedophilia.

These people are just, let's be honest, these people are just fucking strange.

Go, go, go.

Welcome to the 358th episode of the Prop G-Pod.

What's happening?

I'm still in Aspen, but headed to Chicago this week.

I tried to spend...

So, just a quick pro tip as a parent.

My sons, when they're together, are it's a different dynamic.

What's the term?

They're awful.

They resent each other, jealous of each other, love each other.

I don't know what is going on there, but when they are together, the whole household is chaos and angry and shit getting thrown at each other.

We were in Spain and they got into with another family and

we were having dinner and they were, as parents do, to try and be nice to the other parents, complimenting our kids.

And we heard something go flying and it was a remote and it was my youngest throwing the remote at the other, which devolved into a fist fight.

So that was good.

That was fun.

The only thing I regret about it is breaking it up.

I think one needs to establish dominance over the other and traumatize him and just have fewer fights.

I'm just ready for them to go at it.

Maybe some rules.

Maybe I put on some gloves, no, like biting or something like that.

But I think at some point

they should just have at it.

Anyways, but one of the things I have decided as good parenting or that I really enjoy is that individually they're like less awful.

I wouldn't say they're great, but they're less awful.

And so I try to put on the calendar every year because the years go fast, my friend, I try to put on something to do with them individually and get them out of town and take a trip with them.

And on Thursday, I have a speaking gig.

So my son is coming with me to Chicago.

And what do you do?

One of the things when you're in Chicago, I like to tell my son, all right, use AI, do whatever you want, but you're in charge of planning.

You're in charge of planning the trip.

I get to pick the hotel because I'm very fussy when it comes to hotels, but you pick everything else.

So what are we doing?

Well, of course, we're going to go see the McDonald's Museum.

I mean, who wouldn't?

Who wouldn't want to see the museum where it all started?

Anyways, by the way, I love McDonald's, but I only limit it.

I only eat McDonald's in airports or in other cities.

As a general rule, I do not eat fast food or go to a strip club in the city I live in.

I just think neither of those things can go really well.

Anyways, in Chicago,

where we will not be going to a strip club, we are going to go see the McDonald's headquarters, as I mentioned.

We're going to see 360 Chicago Observation Deck.

I guess that's that building with the two things on it.

Because, you know, when you're a 14-year-old, the moment you get to a new city, you got to go to the, you know, the tallest building and look out on the city.

That's just a must.

And then we're going to a place called, we're going to a restaurant called Gibson's, which my son says is a must-do.

And then I'm going to take him on that boat tour.

But anyways, I'm super excited about going to Chicago with him.

Then I go to New York for a week.

And

anyways, it's been absolutely wonderful here.

And just a quick, quick thank you.

As anyone who listens to the pod knows, I lost my dad a couple of weeks ago or nine days ago, and a lot of people reached out with really nice notes.

Thanks very much.

Do very much appreciate it.

One of the wonderful things about the podcast is that, you know, the mediums are funny.

The medium really is the message.

I know how somebody knows me or has heard of me.

And that is if they come up and they high-five me, I know they've seen a video.

If they want to come up and have a really long conversation or they write a really long thoughtful email, I know it's because they've read something something I've written.

If they come up and start speaking to me as if they're my friend, I know it's the podcast.

And that's one of the unique things about this medium.

Because the voice, because you're not distracted with visuals or not as much, although supposedly 25% of our listeners are on the TV, people streaming on YouTube.

Who would have thought that?

Who would have thought that anyways?

But the majority of people are focused on the voice.

And the voice is more intimate.

And also because you are with people when they're doing something personal, washing the dishes or taking their dogs for a walk, they feel close to you.

And also, you're physically in their ears.

It's not ambient noise.

You're actually in their ears.

So they're very focused on you and your voice.

By the way, I have a very handsome voice.

Like, imagine what I look like right now.

It's better looking than what I am.

And that is, I have had no joke, people come up to me and cock their head and go, Your Sky Galley recognized my voice.

And I say yes.

And they go, huh?

Like, oh, I thought you'd be better looking.

Anyways, face for podcasting.

But one of the really nice nice things about it is you do feel as if you inherit a ton of friends and that is, or at least acquaintances or people who come up to you and are really nice to you and seem to be concerned about you and know a lot about you.

And it's really, it's, you know, it's actually very nice.

People often say, what's it like having a certain level of awareness or quote unquote fame?

And I, I think I have just

the right amount of fame.

And that is people are nice to me.

They give me affirmation.

They come up to talk to me.

I enjoy it.

But at the same time, I still feel as if I can be pretty anonymous.

Anyway, with that, in today's episode, we speak with Governor Gretchen Whitmer, the 49th governor of Michigan.

We discussed with Governor Whitmer the future of the Democratic Party, the importance of bipartisan leadership, and the crisis facing young men.

And after the interview, for the first time, we've been getting

a lot of people have reached out who are potentially candidates for president, trying to gain awareness for either their programs or a run.

We're going to do just a quick two or three minute, no mercy, no mouse review of of our conversation and the candidate.

So stick around for that.

What a thrill.

Oh my God.

What is he thinking?

What does he think?

So with that, here's our conversation with Governor Whitmer.

Governor, where does this podcast find you?

I'm in Mackinac Island.

You got to do better than that.

What is that?

Mackinac Island, Michigan.

For those tuning in, I'm going to pull out my Michigan map.

We got two peninsulas.

They look like hands.

It's right here in Lake Huron between the two peninsulas.

It's a spectacular place.

So we very much appreciate you coming on.

And we were trying to think about where to kick it off.

So I think a lot of our listeners probably know of you, but don't know you.

Can you spend a couple minutes just on your origin story?

Sure.

You know, I am a lifetime Michigander.

I grew up in this state.

Grew up in East Lansing, the home of Michigan State University.

Parents divorced when I was young.

My mom moved to Grand Rapids, so my dad followed us even though he worked in Detroit, which was three hours away.

He did that drive for many years, so I'm very close to both my folks.

I lost my mom about 20 years ago to brain cancer, but I went to Michigan State, thought I was going to be a sports broadcaster.

And when I was there, my dad encouraged me to do an internship down at the state capitol, which was like eight miles from MSU's campus.

And it kind of changed everything for me.

I fell in love with public policy.

I learned about state government and took a job with the House Democrats when I was graduated from MSU.

We were at, it was a weird time.

We were 55, 55 Democrats, Republicans.

It was tied maybe the most productive time in legislative history in Michigan where I got to learn and see it firsthand.

And then we lost the election.

And so I went to law school.

I'd been putting it off for a little while, practiced law for a little bit, but kind of surveyed the field.

And like a lot of women in this business, it was a man who suggested I consider running for office.

I'd never considered myself an office holder.

So I ran for the House, served in the House for eight, six years, the Senate for eight years.

I was a prosecutor.

And the Flintwater crisis really kind of

inspired me to run for governor.

You know, I saw a community that was hurt so badly by decisions that were made in Lansing, our state capitol.

And I thought, you know, I'm going to run and I'm going to try to fix that and fix a lot of the other problems that I see in Michigan.

But I think the time that formed who I am, you know, is when I was 29 years old.

They say the five most stressful things that happen in your life are getting married, moving your home, starting a new job, the birth of a child, and the death of a loved one.

And all five of those things happened to me my first year as a state representative.

I cared for my mom who died of glioblastoma multiform, the worst kind of brain cancer you can get.

She died two months after I had my first child, my daughter Sherry, who I named after my mom.

And all of that was my first year in the legislature.

I'd gotten married the year prior.

And for some odd reason, I decided to move my home at the same time.

So I did all five of those things in that one year.

And I often tell people I think that's...

what shaped who I am, why I don't suffer fools very well, why I'm impatient for solutions and I don't have a lot of patience for BS.

And so

I don't know.

I think those are the most salient aspects of my life.

So were you raised in a single-parent household?

I wasn't.

You know, my folks divorced, but my mom always said my dad was a better ex-husband than he was husband because he was a very active parent.

And to this day, my dad, you know, and I are very close.

I was really lucky.

He worked in Detroit, but we lived in Grand Rapids because my mom got remarried.

And so he drove at three hours twice a week.

We saw him every weekend and once during the week as well.

And so they were both single at different points in time, but I had the benefit of both parents being very active in our lives.

And how did your mom's sickness and sort of going through that, you know, pretty up and close, how did that change your views on health care policy and the way you approach health care for the residents of Michigan?

Well, you know, my mom had three things going for her.

When she was diagnosed, you know, like like every family with a terrible diagnosis like that, you start looking for information, right?

And

they projected four to six month

timeframe before she would die of glioglastoma.

And, you know, she lived for 19 months.

And it was because she had a really good attitude, she had a good support system, and she had good health care.

Most people do not have all three of those things.

Some people don't have any of those three things.

And that's why the statistics are as bad as they are.

You know, I vividly recall, you know, I had given birth to my daughter.

I was exhausted, new parent, but also taking care of my mom and fighting her insurance company, who wrongfully wouldn't cover some of her chemotherapy treatments.

trying to arrange child care for my daughter and get to work on time, you know, all those things were on my shoulders.

It was a sandwich generation experience very early in life.

But I think it really, you know, is what's driven me to try to expand access to healthcare for people.

It's driven me to try to help people get affordable, accessible child care.

You know, all these things I think kind of center the work that I do even now as governor and make me not patient for

posturing.

I want to solve problems.

That's why I do this work.

I care about people and I want to solve problems.

It was specifically thinking about, so in the United States, we spend, I think, $12,000 or $13,000 per capita on healthcare for worse outcomes, right?

We're more obese, die sooner.

Infant mortality is just kind of just okay.

Best healthcare in the world, I think, if you're in the top 10%,

but definitely not.

In the bottom 90, in the most of the G7, it's at $6,500 per capita.

So a decent way to describe healthcare in America for the lower 90, if you will, is expensive but bad.

What ideas might you have if you were given a magic wand or say you were to run for president and win, what would be some of your priorities or ideas?

Would it be socializing medicine?

Would it be single payer, expanding Medicare?

What big ideas would you have to solve what is an increasingly taxing problem for Americans?

40% of Americans' medical and dental debt, right?

And I know you've been working on that.

Anyways, I'll stop there.

What big ideas around attacking health care in the United States would you put forward?

Well, that's a massive thing.

We're going to need a bigger vote.

We're going to need, yeah.

Nice JAWS reference.

You know, I think that we provide health care in the in the worst way possible.

And that means a lot of people can't afford it.

So they go to the emergency room when it is at catastrophic moments in their lives.

It's the most expensive way to get coverage, to get health care.

It's also the least effective way to get health care because you're so damn sick by the time you finally access it.

You know, the Medicaid expansion was a good thing.

It helped us get more people, that basic level of care.

And I got to tell tell you, you know, when I was in the Senate, I was a Senate Democratic leader.

I was the leader of 12 people on a body of 38.

I served with all Republicans at the time in the majority.

And the governor, to his credit, saw Obamacare as a good thing for Michigan and decided to try to adopt that in Michigan.

But he couldn't get his own party.

He was in the majority to do it.

And he couldn't do it without us.

So, of course, we wanted to expand health care.

I'm glad we did it.

I've talked to so many people who saw a doctor for the first time in their lives, first time in their lives because of Medicaid expansion.

So you think about how most people access health care at the most dire time, in the most expensive way.

It tells you everything you need to know about we're doing it backwards in this country.

Every person should have a basic level of health care and access.

How do we do it is the

impossible question that everyone's been asking and hasn't been able to rectify, but I think

that is the

goal.

That's the gold standard.

It's the maybe not the gold standard, but that's the goal.

And until we have real change at the federal level, we're going to continue to try to piece it together, but we're not going to be successful.

And I think that's a fundamental problem that we're seeing across this country.

We have a patchwork of health care systems that only the very few really benefit from.

But just last week, you announced $144 million in medical debt relief for nearly a quarter of a million Michiganders.

Am I saying that correctly?

Michiganders?

Michiganders.

There you go, Michiganders.

Thank you for that.

There you go.

And you kind of hear that.

It sounds wonderful.

One, curious to get your thoughts on that.

And two, if you think that could work nationally.

And three,

do you worry that you're creating moral hazard, that people aren't consumers around health care and keeping costs down if they worry or if they believe in the back of their head that at some point point that debt might be relieved.

What's your strategy there around the medical debt relief?

I worry about all the above, Scott.

I think that when government is supplanted by nonprofits to do the fundamentals, we're all in danger.

And that's what that's, we're taking advantage of an opportunity.

Undo Medical Debt is a nonprofit that is matching dollars, that is buying debt pennies on the dollar to retire it for individuals.

We partnered with them.

It's a good thing.

For a lot of people that

are, you know,

swamped by medical debt, that it's keeping them back from all the things that every person should be able to achieve and want to achieve, a basic good quality of life.

It's a good, but it's a band-aid.

It's a band-aid on a wound and it doesn't actually fix the underlying problem.

And so I do worry about that.

You know, we saw during the Flint water crisis, philanthropy coming in to help people.

I'm so grateful for philanthropy.

But if government was doing what needed to be done, those philanthropic dollars could do a whole lot more for a lot more people instead of triaging a failure of a system that wasn't working.

So I do worry about what is the long-term goal here.

We're giving short-term relief, and that's not a bad thing.

But in the long term, we haven't solved the problem.

Oh, so I understand.

So while you announced $145 million in medical debt relief, it didn't cost you $145 million.

You partnered with a company that went out and bought, so it might have cost you $10 or $20 million to relieve $144 million.

Do I have that right?

Yeah.

Okay.

So

you've for a long time emphasized bipartisan leadership,

and you've been credited with overseeing a state where there is probably more bipartisan cooperation.

How do you think you infect the rest of America with more of a sense of bipartisanship?

I don't know.

I was raised in a bipartisan household.

My dad was a Republican back when Republicans don't look anything like they do now.

He's a Democrat and has been for years now.

My mother was a Democrat, but she was more conservative than my dad in some ways.

And

I govern a state that is very purple.

We go back and forth.

And we often decide, you know, us and a handful of other states decide outcomes of national elections.

So I'm always cognizant of the fact that for us to have durable durable impact, it's got to be bipartisan.

It's got to be coalition supported.

And I think that's something that's really challenging.

In this environment where the hyper, we're hyper-polarized and the rhetoric's so hot and personal and dangerous, frankly, it's even tougher.

But I'll say this, you know, after the last election, I really went to a dark place after the election.

I worked really hard to try to help Kamala Harris.

And we came up short.

We came up short, not just in Michigan, but in every single swing state.

There were a lot of things that went into it.

But it was really hard to take to imagine that my state and our country willingly chose this path.

Again, we've been here, only now

it's arguably more challenging, right?

And I tuned out for a while.

I had to turn off the TV.

I think I watched, you know, eight seasons of Dexter.

My kids came and they're like, are you okay?

Yeah.

To distract me, you know?

And my kids were like, are you okay, mom?

But I needed to check out for a minute.

But, you know, one of the things you talk about that really resonates with me and I kind of

have tried to share the similar philosophy is, you know,

checking out only makes my anxiety grow.

You know, I think you say something like

action

absorbs anxiety, something like that.

Yeah, by the way, that's Dan Harris.

I just, I just stole it from him.

But they okay.

Well,

I've said something similar too.

You know, I don't take credit for it either, but it's very, I've found it to be very true in my life.

If I'm checked out, I'm worrying more.

If I go to bed exhausted, I can get up the next day and get right back to work.

You know, I've got to wear myself out doing good because that's the only way that I can navigate the moment that we're in.

And so after I came out of my Dexter

hibernation, about a month, I decided, you know, I got two years left as governor.

I've got to work with this new administration.

I'm going to fight them.

I'm suing them.

We got all our differences.

But if there's opportunities to do some good for my state, I got to take them.

That's that's my duty as governor.

And, you know, I'm trying, I'm doing everything I can to find those opportunities, but I'm still not going to shirk away from fighting where I know I need to.

So let's talk a little bit about the election.

You were on the shortest of shortlists for VP.

If you had, and I'm sure they asked for your input, and

you referenced this.

One of the weird things about our electoral system is that it's a small number of counties and a small number of states, including yours.

And

somewhere in Lansing is the man or woman who decided the election or can decide the election, right?

I was shocked how badly we lost.

I got this wrong.

And,

you know, it wasn't a lot of votes, but lost most or all of the swing states.

As you try to diagnose what went wrong for Democrats, what two or three things or mistakes or missed opportunities

would you lay at the feet of the of the campaign?

I think we've gotten too far away from the people that we serve.

And I don't mean, I say we as a party.

You know, one of the things I love about state government is I am with the people I serve all the time.

I get to see the outcomes of the work that I do.

And that's what I love about state government.

And that's that's a challenge when you're talking about Washington, D.C.

You know, I'm not a pundit, but I've thought a lot about

the substance of your question.

And I think I don't know that anyone, I don't know that anyone could have tagged in when President Biden tagged out and it come up with a different result.

I really don't, I really think it was too late.

And so I do think that it was

You know, the president stayed in way too long.

I don't think he should have run again.

And I I think he stayed in way too long.

And we may have had a different result.

We may not have.

But there should have been a robust primary where

new energy, new vision, and new talent was tested and ready for a tough general election.

And you know what?

If that had happened, maybe the Republicans would have had a different standard bearer too in their primary.

That's the big thing I think about.

But I also think that disconnection with people.

You know, the campaign continued to say the economy is doing great.

And you know what?

The average person was not feeling that very clearly.

Men weren't feeling that.

Women weren't feeling that.

It was across the board

tone deaf.

And what do you think?

I think most people would agree that the Democrats need to get kind of more in touch with the people that they represent.

A lot of people aren't happy with the president's policies, and yet the Democratic Party is even less popular.

Can you be a little bit more prescriptive in terms of policies or messaging around how people start to believe, again, that the Democratic Party does, in fact, represent them?

When I, you know, jumped in the race in 2018, I got all across the state of Michigan.

I wanted to ask people, what's going on in your life?

What could I do that'll make it better?

And, you know, a lot of politicians just hit the campaign trail and talk, but I like to listen.

And I think it's important that politicians shut up and listen to the people they want to serve.

And when you ask them, they'll tell you.

So I heard over and over again, to my surprise, frankly,

fix the damn roads.

That's what I heard.

That's what people said.

Whether I was in the upper peninsula in the most rural parts of the state, or I was in downtown Detroit or on the west side of the St.

Grand Rapids, that was a common refrain.

It wasn't the only thing people talked about.

They talked about housing costs.

They talked about job opportunities.

They talked about school outcomes for our kids.

But roads kept coming up over and over again.

And I think, you know, I assumed it was because it's a daily reminder on your commute.

If you hit a pothole, it's a pretty clear piece of evidence that government's not getting the job done.

And it can really cost you a lot of time and money on your commute or fixing your car, et cetera.

But it was actually when I was in a children's hospital in Detroit.

I was touring and I came across a woman who looked kind of friendly and I thought she wouldn't mind talking to me.

But, you know, it's a children's hospital.

So I figured this is high-stress place, parents with kids in the hospital.

And I chatted with her and I said, you know, if I'm fortunate enough to get elected, what could I do that'll make your life better or make your life a little little easier?

And she said, fix the damn roads.

And I was shocked.

I thought she'd talk about health care.

I thought she'd talk about child care or education.

And I said, all right, tell me more.

Why is this the first thing out of your mouth?

She said, well, I got, she's mom of, you know, four kids, one daughter, three boys.

One of her boys was in the hospital.

She lives in Flint.

She was driving back and forth from Flint to Detroit,

not a short commute.

And she hit a pothole and it sidelined her for a whole day.

It busted the rim on her car.

It cost her a ton of money that she didn't have, hadn't budgeted for.

It was money out of child care for rent.

And it took her away from her child in the hospital.

And she was paying for child care for the other kids at home.

And it was like that moment, it just crystallized for me that when you talk about the roads, it's not just about an easier commute or safer commute.

It's about time with your kids.

It's about money for your rent or your child care.

It's about people on the margins who one little pothole can totally screw up their whole month or months of spending.

And I think that's the kind of stuff that I learn the most from when we're asking people.

And I think a lot of Democrats in D.C.

talk to each other and don't actually talk to their constituents enough.

What do you think going into the midterms is on voters' minds and has it changed at all since the last election?

What do you think are going to be the kind of the if it feels like both

the presidential election and even city elections right now, looking at the mayoral race in New York, it's been about affordability.

Do you think that's going to be the key issue again at the midterms?

I think a lot of people feel hopeless that they can't get ahead because they can't buy a house or they can't find an apartment that they can afford.

They're looking for a good paying job.

You know, I think that those fundamentals are missing for a lot of people in this country right now.

And they're only getting harder to reach with tariffs, with all the additional costs that are going to be piled on people from the bill that just passed through Congress.

I think it's only going to get harder.

And so, yeah, I do think that that is going to be front and center.

And my hope is that my colleagues across the country and people who run as Democrats are not just speaking to that, but have a vision about how to address it and are talking to people about that who are understanding what's really holding Americans back right now.

And it's not just, you know, it's not just Democrats.

I think everyone in D.C.

sometimes gets caught in that bubble.

And that's why when people ask governors, how should we message to people?

I think governors are the best messengers because we're the ones on the ground with people every single day.

And I would say that's true of Republican and Democratic governors because we know what's going on more.

Now, I'm obviously a Democrat and I think our platform's a lot more representative of what people want and need, but you know this is still going to be very important to voters going into next you know the next election.

We'll be right back after a quick break.

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A big kind of call sign for Republicans and Democrats, it seems as if we have a bit of

a fetish or a lot of goodwill for quote-unquote manufacturing.

You consistently hear candidates talk about the importance of manufacturing plays.

And if you thought of a state that sort of embodied manufacturing, I think it would be Michigan.

I think if people said, okay, what state is ground zero for how well or not well we're doing in terms of manufacturing, it would be Michigan.

Curious what you think about our quote-unquote national policy as it relates to manufacturing.

We can use that as a bridge to talk about tariffs.

But what do you think America gets right or wrong about manufacturing?

And what have you done at a state level to ensure that I think it's your number one sector as manufacturing remains robust?

You know, when we think about

the pandemic, right,

we've all lived through a very recent, very clear example of what happens when we're not manufacturing in this country.

Just trying to get swabs or masks was impossible and lives were lost because we weren't able to do that.

I'm grateful that we had, you know, a kind of a resurgence and reinterest around supporting manufacturing and onshoring supply chains.

It's critical for our homeland security.

It's critical for jobs.

It's critical for our our health.

And, you know, the Biden administration did a lot of good work to spur this.

And I'm worried.

I'm worried right now because in Michigan, we've seen a lot of investment around growing our manufacturing.

It is our big industry and autos to boot, which makes up a bulk of our advanced manufacturing, but we do a lot of different types of manufacturing.

And agriculture.

And all of these things make us uniquely susceptible to the pain of

tariff policy that is just complete chaos right now.

We lack a strategic goal.

90 deals in 90 days, we've had two, and not with the most, with the biggest trade partners that we have.

And so, right now, I think it's really precarious in Michigan, despite all the work that we've done to make sure that our workforce is ready, to level the barriers between people and skills that get them into good paying jobs, including manufacturing jobs.

And I'm very worried about

what this moment is going to reap for Michigan long term.

You know, there's a saying that when

the country gets a cold, Michigan gets the flu.

You know, we feel it harder and faster than other states do.

And we're seeing that right now with this tariff policy.

And later today, I'm going to be talking with the Secretary of Commerce to talk a little bit about the Canadian tariffs in particular and what it's meaning to the the Michigan economy, because I don't know that they are seeing it.

And I want to make sure that it's very clear.

And I'm going to do my best to continue to prevail on them to come up with some sort of an agreement with Mark Carney and the Canadians, but also, you know, the Mexican government, because North American trade is,

you know, it ain't perfect, but it's been working and we rely on it.

And it's really important to so many jobs and so much of American manufacturing.

Where are you with respect to the president's basic notion that America, we have all of these asymmetric trade relationships and that many nations have taken advantage of us in terms of trade and this sort of

full embrace of a tariff policy?

What do you think about tariffs as they relate to protecting some industries, including manufacturing, and how the administration is going about it?

I think the way they're going about it is dangerous.

And

we're feeling it in Michigan already.

I can tell you that.

They've never articulated a long-term strategic goal.

And once we get there,

that corporate, you know, that corporations can evolve and then plan on it.

It's this on, off, hot, cold.

What is it today?

Who's our enemy tomorrow?

And, you know, I'm really concerned.

You know, Michigan is...

we like to say, we're basically second cousins with our Canadian neighbors.

In Michigan, if you've ever been to a hospital in Detroit, odds are you've been taken taken care of by Canadian nurse.

They come across the border in hundreds every single day to take care of Americans, Michiganders mostly, right?

And so this is a relationship that was built over generations, that has been mutually beneficial.

When LA is on fire, Canadian firefighters come to help.

You know, I mean, this is something that has been, you know, just

true allies in every sense of the word.

And now I can tell you, Canadians aren't coming to the States.

They're not coming for tourism.

They're not investing in America.

They're not buying American goods.

The Canadian ambassador to the United States, I was recently in an event with her and she was talking about how Canada's consumption of American goods dwarfs China's,

I think France, Germany, like she was, she was listing five countries together were dwarfed by Canadian consumption.

That's why this relationship has got to be resolved and protected.

And it's going to take us generations to earn back the kind of trust that we built over the last number of years.

In five months, so much damage has been done.

And I worry what that's going to mean for us long term.

So, generally speaking, when we think about when I was younger,

people didn't sort of go shopping for states.

I didn't think of it.

I don't remember people thinking, oh, no sales tax or no state income tax.

I'm moving to Florida from New York.

And now it feels as if states have to compete for not only businesses, but just for citizens.

And loosely speaking, I think most people would say that immigration patterns are driven by two things, sunshine and low taxes.

And Michigan has neither of those.

And yet it appears, the surveys I've read that it does really well in terms of a business-friendly environment, really well in terms of quality of life.

The economy, good, not great.

But what is your approach to if you're selling the consumer product that is Michigan, trying to convince people, my understanding is you've actually had net population growth, that

those migration patterns are not the case at Michigan.

What is your pitch to consumers and businesses and the policies to back them up to make Michigan a state they choose to move to instead of from?

Well, Michigan's got a great quality life.

You know, we've got 20% of the world's fresh surface water is in and around the Great Lakes.

We've got more coastline than any other state in the continental United States, and it's all fresh water, no sharks and no salt.

We've got phenomenal institutions of higher education, including our community colleges and our higher educational institutions.

And, you know, there's a company that's got dual headquarters, one in Silicon Valley, one in Washtenaw County, Michigan, right near Ann Arbor.

And they're having an easier time recruiting to Michigan because our cost of living is one-tenth that in in Northern California and so all of these things I think are great strengths for us.

You know I was talking with the Aspen Institute on Climate yesterday in Chicago with my colleague Dun Governor Dunlavey from Alaska.

You know,

we were chatting a little bit about climate and one of the questions posed was, both your states are well positioned.

For climate, you'll have population growth.

And I'm like, oh my God, climate immigrants is is you know is not how we want to grow our population climate bad climate is not good for anybody as I can tell you when I look across at the Mackinac Bridge the smoke from Canadian wildfires is impacting us so

I think you know the strengths that I highlighted are part of it but I'd also add Michiganders are down to earth you know I as I talk to businesses who have presence in other states Michiganders take pride in their work and we're greedy people who show up and we work hard.

And I think that's an important point on top of all the other policies that we've had to make Michigan a welcoming state, a place where you can make your own decisions about your body, where every person's protected and respected under the law, and where we've leveled the financial barrier to get skills so you can get into good paying jobs.

I think these are all important aspects of the work that we're doing.

And

how do you keep or maintain that quality?

So I think a quality of life means you get a good job and you can afford your rent.

You keep housing costs and education costs at a reasonable level and ensure that people have decent jobs, decent high-paying jobs.

How do you do that?

I don't know.

Let me start with housing because it feels as if that has been a real issue around maintaining affordability in different states.

How do you ensure that

Longwell wants to say of how do you approach affordability in Michigan?

So, we've really been on a crusade to build affordable housing in Michigan these last few years.

We've plowed a lot of resources into it.

We have,

I think, maintained our high level of standards, but moved licensing a lot faster, moved permits a lot faster.

We've added tens of thousands of housing units, and we've created tens of thousands of construction jobs in the process, which is good paying trades jobs, which is something that we take great pride in as well.

I think we've got, you know, a lot of great programs to help people pay off $10,000 of a down payment so that more people can get in.

One of the things I think that

I'm sure we'll talk about it, but I raised this in my state of the state earlier this year.

Women are two to one buying homes, their first homes, to men.

Of course, the average age is way too high

for everybody, but two to one women are doing it.

So we're doing a lot more outreach to men to make sure that they know of all these opportunities and programs too.

I think that it's really,

you know, very important that everyone can participate.

But the housing costs and accessibility all across this country, the costs are way too high and accessibility is way too low.

And so we've made it a real priority with state dollars to find those partnerships where we can build more

at a lower price point so that more people can participate.

You referenced something we think a lot about here, and that is young men who are struggling.

And you also referenced more single women now own homes than men.

Single women in urban areas are now making as much or more than men.

60, 40 college attendants.

And I want to be clear, all of those things are wonderful.

That's a collective victory.

We should hold hands and applaud our victory here.

It's not the same for men.

Young men are really struggling, right?

Four times likely to kill themselves, three times as likely to be addicts or homeless.

And you made a direct appeal

in your state of the state.

What do you think, if you try to diagnose the issue here, the problem, what is it?

Why are young men having such a difficult time?

And can you point to any specific programs or ideas in the state of Michigan that you think can help address this issue?

Well, it's a really important question that you're asking.

And, you know, I'm the mom of two daughters, but it's in their interest that we create real opportunity for every person right and and we have made strides when it comes to women but we we do see men falling behind it it's just what we're seeing it's it's in the data and I appreciate the work that you're doing I've learned a lot by listening to you and and trying to do our research here on the ground you know it's not just in housing it is also when it comes to you know the programs that we have designed to make it easier for people to get skills right there's not one path for everyone And I think we've done, as a country, ourselves, a real disservice in talking about the four-year education as the only path to prosperity.

There are lots of different paths, whether it's a two-year certificate or it is a trade school where you can get skills and get paid while you're getting them and have no debt and a good paying job on the other side.

There's opportunity for every person, but not every person sees that opportunity.

And I think that's part of the problem that we've had is reaching young men.

These programs, so, you know, making community college free for every high school graduate.

We have big scholarships available for kids who do want to go to four-year institutions.

We also created something called the Michigan Reconnect, which is for people 25 and up to go back to school and to upskill.

In all those programs, we're seeing uptake two-to-one women to men.

Two-to-one.

They're available to everyone.

They're not designed for one gender or another.

They are designed to make sure that every person can participate.

But for some reason, it's two to one women to men.

And that's why in my Stay of the State, I talked about just our efforts to do the outreach, to go in places where men are, because we're obviously not reaching them.

And I think that that's going to be really important.

The more people who feel hopeless and powerless and angry, the more dangerous our rhetoric gets, the more dangerous our world gets, and the less opportunity there is.

So it was interesting though, Scott.

I got to tell you, when I did that, I did get some interesting kind of reaction.

You know, some people said, are you abandoning

the work that you do to create more opportunity for women?

I said, no.

It's like I remember someone once said, when you say save the rainforests,

You're not saying screw all the other forests.

You're saying, I see a vulnerability here.

Let's get to work and address it.

And that's what we're doing.

Doing that outreach, making sure that young men participate too, can see a future, can feel hopeful and empowered to participate in this economy and live the lives that they want.

But the interesting thing is it's been mostly moms and some dads, of course, but who are advocating for their sons.

And that's what I'm thinking about when we promote these opportunities.

Yeah, Empathy is not a zero-sum game.

And to your point, I've found the biggest advocates that have made it a much more productive conversation than the gag reflex that was inspired if you just brought it up five years ago is mothers from both sides of the aisle that just see something is going on.

I'm curious your thoughts on immigration policy.

I mean, two big things here, but I'd love for you to just touch on the President's immigration policy and some of these ICE raids.

My sense is your population of undocumented workers is only about 1.2 percent, but I'm sure it's impacting Michigan.

And also, then any thoughts on this big, beautiful tax bill that's passed?

Those are two big questions, Scott.

You know, I'll start with this.

We recently had visitors from the federal government in Michigan

talking about, you know, we have not seen a lot of the stuff that's playing out in other parts of the country, to your point.

The northern border,

people don't realize this, but when you talk about border crossings, the most active border crossing in North America is in Detroit.

It goes to Windsor.

And we've been very fortunate to have very few issues on the border.

But someone made a representation that we're just getting inundated by gangs and fentanyl

on the northern border, which was news to me, frankly.

And so I had a security briefing with some of the folks in the federal government.

And I asked the question, and they said, you know, you know, we see fentanyl everywhere.

So where's it coming from?

I don't know.

So it's probably not coming down from Canada, but there is a fentanyl problem in this country, no question.

And so

it's been challenging to see some of the national conversation in this space when the facts on the ground don't necessarily bear it out.

All of that being said, we do have to have a path to citizenship for people who come here illegally, and we do have to have, you know, strong borders.

There's no question about that.

It's important to our democracy, to our ability to secure the homeland, but

I don't agree with the way that they're going about it.

I think it's just dangerous and destructive.

When I think about the big bill, and I'm not going to use their phrase for it because I think it's a terrible, it's a terrible set of policies.

I'm worried about a lot of people in our country.

I worry about...

people immediately who are going to lose access to health care that we've worked so hard to expand in Michigan.

I worry about hospitals in rural areas that are not going to make it because of the devastation to the Medicaid population that they disproportionately serve.

They're not going to be able to keep doors open.

I worry about our kids who are going to inherit debt that you can't even get your head around.

And so, yeah, I was fighting against the bill.

My fellow Democratic governors and I were.

I think one of the most disappointing things is Republican governors are going to see the same devastation in their states, but they were mum.

And I just

hard to believe we're at this moment

in America that people are willing to bite their tongues for their own political

good, you know, for their own political good

and sacrifice the people that they serve.

It's just

shocking.

It's really shocking to me.

We'll be right back.

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We're back with more from Governor Whitmer.

So there's a perception that the relationship between the administration and governors is entirely dependent upon whether you're part of MAGA or not.

Is that the case?

How is your relationship with the current administration right now?

Complicated.

You know, I got to tell you, in my first term, my first two years of my first term were the last two years of the first Trump administration and notoriously very contentious, right?

They called me that woman from Michigan.

I got threatened to be kidnapped and killed by, you know, people that I think were instructed to be.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Not only that, but, you know,

gas was thrown on the fire through the election.

You know, it was, it was really scary.

And like I said, after I came out of my Dexter funk, I decided I got to try.

I'm going to do everything I can to do as much as I can for the state of Michigan.

I got, you know, I'm going to keep showing up.

And sometimes they won't like to see me and like to hear what I have to say, but I'm going to keep showing up and I'm going to keep making the case.

I got a

Air National Guard base to recapitalize, which is incredible.

I tried to get that done under the Biden administration, couldn't get over the finish line, but I got it done in the first few months of this year.

I'm grateful for that.

I'm working on a lot of other things.

I got a, we had a massive ice storm here in Michigan a few months ago.

Hard to believe.

It's 80 degrees out and we had an ice storm not long ago.

I still haven't gotten FEMA relief for the businesses and people in Michigan.

I'm still working on that.

I'm having a call with the administration today about the Canadian, you know, North American tariffs situation.

So I've decided I'm going to lean in and I'm going to be, I'm going to be the squeaky wheel.

And sometimes I can get some good stuff from Michigan, great.

And if they get mad at me, that's fine too.

It doesn't mean I forbear from suing when we need to as states, which we have many times.

But I'm going to do everything I can to keep the lines of communication open because if I've learned anything, it's when you're not talking, you got no shot at

finding any common ground.

And I'm not pretending there's going to be a lot there, but I'm going to keep trying.

That's my duty as governor, I think.

I think one of the things that has been frustrating for Democrats is we see things happening that to us,

these red lines keep getting blown and we see people being thrown off their Medicaid and a tax bill that is primarily kind kind of

transferring wealth from young to old, from the future to the past, from the poor to the rich, and are frustrated that there isn't more Democratic leadership pushing back.

There's, I think, a legitimate concern.

It's sort of like, where's the leadership on the Democratic side?

I mean, it would be very difficult right now, I think, for anyone to say who is the leader of the Democratic Party.

When you're, to the extent you can, behind closed doors, talking to Democrats about how to resist here or what can be done.

What are your thoughts?

Well, I'm going to say something that's going to be really depressing, and that is we're five months in to a 48-month term.

All right.

And I understand

the desire to fight, to fight everything.

I get it.

I feel that too.

I feel the same desperation you just spoke to.

And as a governor, I have a role.

You know, I have an important role.

My fellow governors and I do, we talk about this a lot.

How do we band together and show Americans what Democratic leaders do?

It's by delivering in our states.

It's by fighting the federal government when they're impacting our states.

But we are not the counterpoint to the executive branch and the federal government.

That's Congress.

That's their whole job is to be that counterpoint.

And so When I see Congresspeople who are stepping into the fray, I'm cheering them on.

Whether it's AOC or it's Chris Murphy or it's anyone else, I appreciate that and I recognize that every one of us must play a role.

There's not going to be one leader of this party.

There's just not right now.

We don't have a president and so there's going to be a lot of leaders.

It's got to be, you know, a team, a team effort.

But I also am cognizant that I got to lead a state of 10 million people.

through this time.

And that means living my values, showing people what democratic leadership can do and will do for people so that they can point to, okay, this, what they're doing in Michigan is good and we need more people like that in the federal government.

And I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about Democrats writ large.

And I think, you know, to your point, I have that same sense of frustration.

I see some of the things going on

and I read the articles that I know some of the folks that they're talking about.

And I scratch my head and I say,

how do I contribute to something that actually is going to be productive and and successful?

Because you can have all the right positions in the world, but if you can't win an election, none of it matters.

So let's talk about that.

Let's have some fun.

Let's imagine that you're drafted.

You're consistently mentioned as one of the most viable candidates on the Democratic side.

Let's go all the way forward to inauguration of...

2028 Whitmer presidency, and you have a 12-month honeymoon period, as any new president might have, and a lot of political capital, but maybe only only one or two issues to spend that capital on.

As you look at the nation and you try and imagine

a Whitmer presidency, what are the one or two issues you think you would want to focus on with that political capital during quote-unquote that honeymoon phase?

Where do you think the biggest need is?

Where would you want to have the most impact if you had if you held the you know the highest job in the land?

I don't even like this game, Scott, because it'll just get people to go.

Come on, Governor.

let's break let's break some news here

listen

i care about i want to have a hand in writing the next chapter but i don't know that i got to be the main character but i will say this i think any democrat in their first 12 months when you are given power you better use it and not be apologetic about it and not be shy about it.

People elect you to do the job.

And by God, you know, if there's something that I think has resonated with the current occupant of the White House with people, is that he's not afraid to use power.

I got lots of problems with it.

I don't know that it's all legal and it's certainly not all ethical, but he's not afraid to use power.

And I think sometimes Democrats are too afraid.

So I'd love to see a bold leader who takes on a lot of issues that have been vexing us.

But I would, you know, maybe I've been listening to your podcast too much, but I'm thinking about, I'm thinking about the national debt.

I'm thinking about all the ways that we are saddling future generations of Americans with the debt.

And it's just,

it's unethical.

It's horrific.

And both parties have been guilty of it.

I will say Democrats have retired more debt than Republicans have during their relevant administrations, but it's run up over many, many

administrations.

Well, let's talk about that because I think a lot of people agree that we're spending $7 trillion on $5 trillion in receipts.

What I find Democrats come up short is that they all agree we need to have this conversation, but they don't want to have it because it involves very unpopular decisions around both cutting spending and raising taxes.

Any thoughts or programs you can, or decisions you can point to in Michigan around trying to restore fiscal sanity?

Where do you think and two pointed questions?

Where do you think we could raise revenues and where do you think we could cut costs?

So I'll just say this.

a as a governor, I got to have a balanced budget.

Every year we got a balanced budget.

And we have retired a lot of debt in Michigan.

We've paid down billions.

Last, I think the number was 18 or 20 billion dollars of debt.

We've gotten our credit rating increase, you know, improved, upgraded.

We have made, created a rainy day fund that has a historic high in it now and created one for education as well.

So we've been really prudent with our dollars.

And unlike some states, we used one-time COVID dollars for one-time expenses instead of rolling it into ongoing needs where some states have serious budget deficits now.

We don't have that.

Caveat being tariffs are starting to really have an impact on our state budget.

We're seeing that.

And I'm concerned about that in combination with the cuts coming from the federal government because of the latest legislation.

But I do think that

need is need-based analysis is really important as we look to,

you know, my dad doesn't need his social security.

He doesn't.

He did well.

He's not a billionaire.

He's, you know, but he did well in his life and he does not need the social security checks.

There are a lot of people in Michigan who $1,500 stipend for a mom in Flint with our RX kids.

$1,500 makes all the difference in the world that she can take care of her child.

And so that's just one quick way of saying to really evaluate how do we spend our precious taxpayer dollars in a way that is going to have the biggest impact, drive our economy, and help more people be able to participate.

I think that is one very clear question that.

is never asked enough and should be.

So it sounds like you're willing to sort of get near near or even touch a third rail.

And it sounds like what you're suggesting is you're open to the idea of means testing or maybe raising the age for Social Security.

Am I interpreting that correctly?

Yeah, I think one of the things that

you said in one of the podcasts I listened to recently was, you know,

the only color that we should ask is green, right?

You phrased it much more eloquently than I just paraphrased, but

there's a lot of

wisdom to that because there are a lot of people of color, there are a lot of white people, you know, all people who are in poverty.

If we could have programs that really benefit that segment of society, we'd all be better off.

There wouldn't be this anger and this wealth gap disparity that is fueling so much of the anger that is driving the rhetoric in this country right now.

And just as we, Governor, just as we wrap up here, and you've been very generous with your time, people, whether they agree with you or not,

are just going to look at you and think this is a high-functioning and very successful person.

When you look back on your life, what are the really key seminal influences or moments that enabled you to kind of achieve this level of influence?

And I would imagine it's a very frustrating but a very rewarding job.

What were those moments in your life that really helped to put wind in your sales?

So going into last year,

I wrote a book called True Gretch, and

it's 10 things I've learned over my life that have really helped me navigate the last six years, the crazy years that I've been governor, right?

A pandemic, a kidnapping plot,

demonstrations for racial justice, incredible

climate events that meant we had to evacuate.

10,000 people in the middle of the night in the middle of a pandemic, like 32 recall attempts, you know, all the crazy crap I've had to navigate.

People often ask me, why do you still feel positive?

Why did you want to run for re-election?

You know, and that's a legitimate question.

I think most people be like, forget this.

I love it.

I love this job.

And I think, you know, in that, in the book, I talk about 10 things that have given me a lesson that I learned.

Something I screwed up.

I talk about throwing up on my high school principal when I was in college, or I'm sorry, in high school, throwing up on my principal and getting suspended.

And just really was a moment that changed everything for me where I was like, all right, I got a, it changed the decisions that I made.

I became a more improved student.

I went to Michigan State, which I couldn't have gotten into if I didn't get my act together at that point in my high school career.

I went to law school where it really clicked for me.

I talk about, you know, the shortcomings, the terrible things that happened to me.

Like

I was raped when I was in college.

You know, a therapist once told me, we're all a ball of clay, and sometimes things get hollowed out or taken away from us.

And it's not fair, and it's not right.

But if you can see that, now that that is a vessel and it can carry water, you can find purpose in the bad decisions you made or in the horrible things that happened to you.

And I think about that a lot because I am not perfect.

I've never tried to tell people I am.

I am a flawed human being.

I'm a normal person in an extraordinary role.

Taking care of my mom during that period of time when she was dying and I was trying to, you know, I had a new baby.

All of these things I think are what make me feel really grateful to be here.

I sometimes feel like I don't deserve to be in this position.

It's a high honor to be the governor of Michigan.

I feel really lucky about it.

I also think maybe that's why people have elected me because they know I don't think I'm better than anyone.

And

in some regards, I'm not as good as some.

Yeah, we share that.

I was very close to my mother, and she went through an extended illness that eventually took her life.

It definitely, I think that and the birth of my kids changed kind of everything for me.

Is there anything you can point to in terms of how you approach life or how it impacted you taking care for a sick person who,

I mean, a glioblastoma, that's just not a great way to go, just being quite frank.

That's a tough one.

Anything you're willing to share about how it changed your approach to life or

the impact it had on you?

I think, you know, I think I was probably, you know, always an empathetic, you know, individual.

My dad always says, you know, I was a pretty sensitive kid when we would go from my mom's house to my dad's house.

I'd leave him notes because I was worried that he would be lonely, you know, when he dropped my sister and brother and me off.

But I remember during, you know, talking with one of the hospice folks and they left a pamphlet for us to look at.

And, you know, just had just had a baby.

My mom was dying.

I was reading this pamphlet and it talked about you know it was this scenario a man getting on a subway with his like five kids and they're running mayhem and they're annoying everyone on the on the subway and this woman's just about had it the kid bumped into her for like the eighth time and she's just about to read in the riot act

and he turns to her and he says you know my wife just died and i don't know how i'm going to take care of these kids and that changed everything right she felt sadness and empathy and wanted to help him instead of right reading the riot act I always have that in the back of my head.

You know,

so many people have got something else going on.

And so

I try to think about different scenarios that could be that person that's tailgating you.

You know, you want to flip them off.

You want to honk at them.

You want to do something.

Maybe they're rushing to the hospital because one of their loved ones was in a car accident.

You know, I mean, I'm always trying to think that way.

And I think that that period of time with my mom when people didn't know what I was going through and maybe gave me a hard time when they shouldn't have, or maybe maybe I did the same to someone.

You know, I think about that a lot, that everyone's going through something.

If you're not right now, you have or you will.

And

try to be kind.

You know, you never regret being kind.

You have two daughters, but you also have three stepsons.

And just before we go here,

my dad was married and divorced four times.

And one of the lights of my life was my,

I guess, stepmother by my dad's third marriage.

We're still very close.

Talk about

any thoughts you can share on best practices around being a parent to kids who aren't biologically yours, being a stepmom.

My dad was married and divorced four times too, Scott.

There you go.

We got that in common, too.

That's right.

You know, I think that, and I'll share this about my ex-husband too.

We're still very good friends.

And my husband and ex-husband sometimes jam together.

My husband plays guitar.

My ex plays the drums, it's hilarious.

But you know, my stepsons, I've learned a lot.

Boys and girls are different.

There's a big shocking newsbreaker of this conversation, but

you know, they need different things.

And I've learned a lot.

My husband is a great dad.

He loves his boys.

And

I know that how important that relationship is and how lucky.

how lucky they are.

And so I think having the boys in my daughter's lives have enriched, we've all been enriched by it.

We've kind of merged a sorority and a fraternity when we got married.

We're kind of the Brady Bunch.

And it was, we've all benefited from it.

And I feel really lucky, but we have to be intentional.

It's not always easy.

It's not always easy.

And any one tip on parenting or a thing that shocked you about parenting?

I don't know that anything shocked me.

I just think trying to stay, be there, trying to be present.

And, you know, of all the downsides to technology, you know, the devices um i'm always connected to my kids and i'm i'm grateful for that and connected to my stepsons too we all get along great and i think it's because we're we play cards together we spend time together and uh we enjoy each other governor gretchen whitmer is the 49th governor of michigan and there's always these accidental tells about politicians and i'm hearing from most of them Fortunate enough to have a lot of them on the pod.

But a real tell on the governor is the following.

You are the first politician I have ever interviewed who, when I asked for your bio, sent one sentence.

And that sentence is the following.

Governor Whitmer is a Democratic and lifelong Michigander and is known for her work on health care, infrastructure, and for speaking out on national issues.

I think that says something about you that you said, you know, we can sum it up here.

I thought that was very telling.

Very much appreciate your leadership and also just the humanity you bring to these issues.

And stay safe and very much, again, appreciate your public service and your time today, Governor.

Thanks very much.

Thanks, Gat.

Appreciate it.

We'll be interviewing, I think my guess is almost every presidential candidate,

at least on the Democratic side, but we'll reach out to everyone on the Republican side.

So here is a no mercy, no balance review of Governor Whitmer.

She reeks of confidence and integrity.

You just get the sense this is a good person and a confident person, and that matters.

That's who you want in government.

It's easy to be cynical about government.

This is a good person who could be, you know, making a lot more money doing something else and instead chooses to be a public servant.

I think think she's going to be a player, swing state, an obvious choice for the top job on everyone's short list for the VP candidacy.

The problem, and it's not only Governor Whitmer's problem, but the Democratic Party, long on rhetorical flourish, not as long on specific programs.

I think we're moving from

an era of trying to be Obama, but you're not Obama to, okay, well, what exactly does that mean?

We have $7 trillion in spending, $5 trillion in receipts.

What does that mean?

What are the first two or three big programs you would propose in the first 90 days?

I think Democrats who get more serious about running are going to have to come up with bold, big ideas and outline them specifically.

And I don't think the governor was able to do that, nor has any other Democrat.

And again, kudos to her for bringing up the idea of means testing, Social Security.

But there's just no doubt about it.

She's going to be on everyone's short list for at least VP.

I also worry, and this is difficult to say, but I think it's true, I wonder if the Democrats are going to take the risk on a third female nominee, given that the previous two have not been successful.

And I'm not saying that's the way the world should be.

I'm saying that's the way the world is.

But again, I'll finish where I started.

To be cynical about our elected leaders is not productive because if you speak to people like Governor Whitmer, you realize that many of our people who decide to be public servants are outstanding at what they do.

This episode was produced by Jennifer Sanchez.

Our assistant producer is Laura Jannair.

True Burroughs is our technical director.

Thank you for listening to the Propsheet Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network.

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