'We need to watch out': Maddow sounds alarm on ICE surveillance as Trump wields new weapon

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Hey. All right, hon.

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Speaker 5 Great. And I'll grab the string lights and some.

Speaker 5 How about I grab some cough drops?

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Speaker 3 I'm fine, honey.

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Speaker 3 All right. Thanks, Stu at home, for joining us this hour.
Really happy to have you here. I got one quick thing to mention before we start tonight.
I said last week at this time

Speaker 3 that I'm going to be doing a live event this week in Cambridge, Massachusetts with former U.S. Ambassador to Russia, Michael McFaul.
That event is Thursday. It is all sold out.

Speaker 3 I'm really looking forward to that event. But if you wanted to go and it sold out before you could get tickets, I'm sorry about that.

Speaker 3 There is another thing I'm going to be doing though, another live event. And this one, I do not think there is any chance it's going to sell out because it's a gigantic venue.

Speaker 3 It's going to be me and Tim Snyder, who is of course the author of On Tyranny. We're going to be doing an event on democracy and tyranny in Chicago.

Speaker 3 It's Friday, November 21st at the Harris Theater in Chicago. Tickets are just going on sale tonight.
So you can use your camera.

Speaker 3 on your phone to scan that blob thing on the that's on your screen right now or you can just go to mattelblog.com Again, November 21st, which is a Friday in Chicago.

Speaker 3 Me and Tim Snyder, I do not think that one will sell out. So that's it.
I promise I won't mention it again, at least tonight. All right, here we go.

Speaker 3 Over the last few months,

Speaker 3 you may remember that one of the things we have covered repeatedly on this show is a set of protests that have specifically targeted a little-known airline called Avello, A-V-E-L-O.

Speaker 3 Avello Airlines is a, it's a, it's a small commercial airline. It mostly serves smaller airports in the United States.
And when Trump came back to the White House this year, Avello Airline

Speaker 3 stuck up its hand and announced that they would be contracting with the Trump administration to fly deportation flights.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 You know, it's one thing to see your government doing that, including, you know, we quickly realized that would mean them flying people off with no legal process at all to,

Speaker 3 say, a huge torture prison in the middle of El Salvador, where the people who were flown there from the United States were told they would never be allowed out ever again, even though they hadn't even seen a judge.

Speaker 3 to be consigned there, right? It's one thing to see your government doing something that radical, right? A lot of Americans had strong feelings about that right from the get-go.

Speaker 3 It's another thing to be a company involved in this, right? It's another thing for for an American consumer to be offered the opportunity to purchase a commercial flight, right?

Speaker 3 On that very same plane that maybe last night was just used to take people in chains and shackles without any due process at all to some faraway gulag where they would be expected to rot for the rest of their lives, right?

Speaker 3 It's one thing to know your government is doing that, but to pay for the privilege of riding on that same plane, please return your tray table to the full upright and locked position.

Speaker 3 Don't forget to check under your seat for leg irons and handcuffs. And children's scribbled notes pleading for help.
And no, we don't serve tomato juice. That's actually a bloodstain.
Sorry.

Speaker 3 So, I mean, it's like,

Speaker 3 it's one thing to be a government. It's another thing to be a public-facing commercial for-profit entity trying to sell people on why they should

Speaker 3 why you should give them your money.

Speaker 3 So yeah, Avelo Airlines, their decision to fly deportation flights for ICE for Donald Trump while also offering commercial flights to Americans on those same planes.

Speaker 3 That was always going to be a difficult mix, right?

Speaker 3 And people ended up protesting against Avello Airline

Speaker 3 at a large number of the airports where they have tried to stay in business in this country. We covered those protests repeatedly.

Speaker 3 This summer, we also reported on Avello's subsequent decision to pull out of a number of

Speaker 3 the airports they were previously serving. They pulled out of Santa Rosa and McKinleyville and Burbank airports in California.
They pulled out of Calispel, Montana. They pulled out of Las Vegas.

Speaker 3 They pulled out of three airports in Oregon, Salem, Eugene, and Rogue Valley. They pulled out of Pasco Tri-Cities airport in Washington state.

Speaker 3 We also then had the Attorney General of Connecticut here on the show, William Tong. After the state of Connecticut gave Avello all sorts of financial incentives.

Speaker 3 So that Avello would come in and operate out of airports in that state. The state then decided they should maybe reconsider that in light of Avello's decision to effectively become part of ICE.

Speaker 3 Attorney General William Tong told us here on the show that he had written to the airline asking Avello if they could confirm that they would not fly nonviolent non-criminals in shackles.

Speaker 3 He asked if Avello would commit to never flying a deportation flight in violation of a court order.

Speaker 3 which is not a hypothetical thing since the Trump administration has apparently ordered some deportation flights to keep flying,

Speaker 3 even when judges have ordered those planes to turn around or stay on the ground. Avello would not answer those questions from the Attorney General of the state of Connecticut.

Speaker 3 State of Connecticut then cut off some of the subsidies that Avello was getting from Connecticut taxpayers.

Speaker 3 Connecticut residents kept showing up to picket at the airports where Avello was operating in their state.

Speaker 3 And now, wouldn't you know it, Avello is pulling out of the airport in Hartford, Connecticut, as well as all of those other airports that we reported earlier this year they were pulling out of as well.

Speaker 3 The Connecticut Airport Authority put out a statement saying it's the company's own decisions that are to blame.

Speaker 3 Connecticut Airport Authority's statement cited Avello's, quote, decision to run deportation flights for the U.S. government and the public backlash it has generated in the region.

Speaker 3 And, you know, I mean, fair enough, not just the protests show that that and the pickets at the airports where Avello flies, but tens of thousands of Americans have also signed pledges to never fly Avello Airlines as long as Avello is flying departation flights for ICE.

Speaker 3 So yeah, that's going to cut into your

Speaker 3 customer base. That might cut into your bottom line.

Speaker 3 And it's not over.

Speaker 3 This was this weekend in Annapolis, Maryland, 13,000 petitions delivered to the state government, specifically to the Democratic governor of the state of Maryland, Wes Moore, calling on Governor Moore to cancel the state of Maryland's contract with Avello, calling on Avello to, in fact, be banned from using Baltimore-Washington International Airport, BWI, as long as Avello is functioning effectively as ice air.

Speaker 3 People protesting in Annapolis this weekend and delivering thousands of petitions to their government.

Speaker 3 Why is protest important in an authoritarian system or against a would-be authoritarian leader?

Speaker 3 I mean,

Speaker 3 I don't think it can be overstated that one of the reasons protest is important is because it can keep you sane.

Speaker 3 But also,

Speaker 3 I mean, generally speaking, when it comes to your rights, use them or lose them.

Speaker 3 Any authoritarian worth his inevitably weird hairdo would love to extinguish your right to protest, your right to free speech, your right to free assembly.

Speaker 3 It is harder to take those rights away from free people when free people regularly exercise those rights.

Speaker 3 But tactically, strategically,

Speaker 3 protesting is also important against authoritarianism,

Speaker 3 even if the authoritarian himself doesn't care about what the protests and the protesters are doing.

Speaker 3 It's important still because authoritarian leaders like to present themselves as all-powerful, right? They like to present themselves as strong men who have all the power they want or need.

Speaker 3 They can do anything they want.

Speaker 3 But strongmen leaders alone don't have that much power at all, particularly in a system like ours, which is historically a democracy and is only right now in the process of consolidating into a would-be authoritarian state at the hands of a would-be dictator.

Speaker 3 We're still in the process here. Nothing is inevitable.
The American people and institutions in this country get a say into how far he's going to be able to go.

Speaker 3 And sometimes protest is the most important lever in determining what institutions and powerful people themselves are willing to do, regardless of what Trump wants.

Speaker 3 I will say, for example, it's not within Trump's power to remove a late night comedian from the air for criticizing him. Right? Trump can't do that unilaterally.

Speaker 3 He needs the company that employs that comedian.

Speaker 3 He needs the other companies involved in that business to effectively act for him once he starts complaining about that comedian and saying that guy ought to not be on the air.

Speaker 3 When Trump pressures companies to do his bidding in a case like that, oftentimes those companies will just cave and do what Trump tells them to do.

Speaker 3 But oftentimes, those companies will also be susceptible to pressure from the people, pressure from the people to not do what Trump wants.

Speaker 3 Also, Trump's chaotic, lawless deportation spree, right? He can't do it alone. Trump tried at first doing it all with military planes.
Remember how hilarious that was?

Speaker 3 He had like huge C-17 cargo planes. Those can carry 77 tons of troops and equipment.

Speaker 3 And Trump was flying C-17s around with like five people on board in the back because he thought that would look tough. Dude, we're paying for that plane.
You got five guys on board.

Speaker 3 Now he needs contractors to participate in this, like say Avello Airlines, to volunteer to provide deportation flights because they're excited to make money off of ICE, to make money off of Trump's deportations.

Speaker 3 And that is, of course, Avello's right to compete for contracts like that. But then,

Speaker 3 you know, if you want to just say you're going to spray some Febreze around, and unhook the shackles and then try to sell the American flying public on also buying seats on those same planes for their vacation flight to Cancun or whatever, after you've been using them to deport people in Trump's utterly lawless, chaotic, shambolic deportation regime.

Speaker 3 Well, you know, the people of the country, people of this country are going to have something to say about that too, which Avello is now learning. with every look at their bottom line.

Speaker 3 For every Avello Airlines,

Speaker 3 for every Paul Weiss law firm and all the other law firms that did corrupt deals with Trump, for every corporation like our parent company for another hot minute, Comcast, that wants to pay for Trump to take a literal wrecking ball, excuse me, I mean an excavator to the White House,

Speaker 3 those public-facing companies should know there's a cost.

Speaker 3 In terms of their reputation with the American people, there may be a cost to their bottom line when they do things against American values, against the public interest, because they want to please Trump or buy him off or profit somehow from his authoritarian overthrow of our democracy.

Speaker 3 Protest may or may not move Donald Trump himself, although these people at Trump Tower in New York this weekend were doing their best to try to make sure that it does.

Speaker 3 But even if protest doesn't move Trump directly, it constrains his power

Speaker 3 by moving the public-facing, consumer-facing people and entities that he has to enlist in what he's trying to do.

Speaker 3 I, for example, will be quite surprised if Maryland's Democratic governor, Wes Moore, does not end up ripping up that state's contract with Avello Airlines.

Speaker 3 If he doesn't, he's going to be answering to Maryland voters about that forever.

Speaker 3 In Chicago, the protests and the community reaction against Trump's immigration agents in that city have taken on now almost an epic scale.

Speaker 3 And I know it's always fashionable to complain about the media, and I know we generally deserve it, but I gotta tell you, local newspapers in the great city of Chicago, local TV stations in the great city of Chicago, local community media, including online media and even social media in Chicago, have all been really good actually at showing us what has turned into a generationally defining battle of Chicago, a battle between the good people of that city and Trump's federal forces that really are just wreaking havoc there.

Speaker 3 I mean, remember, there are not any troops or National Guard in Chicago, even though they're trying their best to make it look like that.

Speaker 3 It's just federal immigration agents dressed up like they're in the military and pretending like they've been trained to deserve to wear the military style outfits that they're in.

Speaker 3 These are people who are just winging it, crashing into cars and then speeding away, chasing people on bikes like they're at

Speaker 3 been a Benny Hill sequence.

Speaker 3 Randomly wrestling people to the ground with no idea what to do with these people or how to secure the scene or how to contend with the inevitably enraged onlookers who can tell that these guys have no idea what they're doing.

Speaker 3 These guys are rolling down car windows windows and aiming weapons at random civilians' faces. Really?

Speaker 3 Using tear gas all day, every day, everywhere in multiple neighborhoods all over Chicago around schools, gassing Chicago cops.

Speaker 3 I mean, even when there's nothing going on but people yelling at them, which is not a sufficient reason to use tear gas, they just use tear gas all the time because they apparently are completely untrained in the use of this as a chemical munition.

Speaker 3 Channel 5, the NBC station in Chicago, has been documenting how Trump's apparently untrained federal agents seem to be making a habit now out of shooting protesters in the face with pepper balls.

Speaker 3 And even people just photographing protests. This photo that we just showed you, this is one protester's back

Speaker 3 after reportedly being hit with pepper balls. by Trump's federal agents firing at pretty close range apparently.

Speaker 3 Because this is how discriminant they're being in their use of force, which again, they appear completely untrained in.

Speaker 3 This weekend in Little Village in Chicago, there was a big organized protest against what Trump's immigration agents have been doing in that neighborhood.

Speaker 3 But every day, all over the city of Chicago, it's not organized protests, it's spontaneous, organic protests, what are called rapid response groups.

Speaker 3 These are people who have not necessarily been activists before. They're not necessarily part of any kind of an organization.
They just live somewhere in the greater Chicago area.

Speaker 3 They're just neighbors who are now

Speaker 3 organizing themselves in an ad hoc way into rapid response groups, running out into the street and trying to protect their neighbors and alert their neighborhoods when Trump's agents show up chaotically and try to take people or start beating people up.

Speaker 3 It is honestly hard to keep track of all the places where Chicago residents are showing up in the streets,

Speaker 3 at local restaurants, at local churches, at local businesses, just in residential neighborhoods. People out in the streets telling these federal agents to get out.

Speaker 3 And, you know, I've never lived in Chicago. I don't know Chicago well at all, but I've been learning a lot about the city.

Speaker 3 I'm just reading the local press every day, just trying to take notes and keep up on all the different neighborhoods where these neighborhood rapid response efforts are showing up.

Speaker 3 Avondale, Lakeview, Mount Prospect, Rolling Meadows, Little Village, Brighton Park, Eastside, Irving Park, Albany Park, Logan Square, Back of the Yards.

Speaker 3 I mean, every day it's more reporting on more Chicagoans blowing whistles and honking their horns and coming out in force and holding one another by the arms and loudly and peacefully saying, No, no, no, not here.

Speaker 3 You're not doing this here. We are not going to stand for it in our neighborhood.
Go home.

Speaker 3 And they usually say it with way more swearing than that. But you know what? That is your right.

Speaker 3 Tomorrow morning, the Customs and Border Patrol chief who Trump has had leading these shambolic, wannabe military exercises against the people of Chicago.

Speaker 3 Trump also had this same guy lead these efforts in L.A., that CBP chief is going to have to testify in federal court tomorrow morning as to whether he has been defying court orders.

Speaker 3 After a judge ordered that federal agents in Chicago must stop all the tear gas and pepper balls and all the other restricted munitions they have been using willy-nilly without warning and apparently without restraint at all against protesters and journalists and clergy and random passersby.

Speaker 3 That testimony will happen in open federal court tomorrow morning in Chicago. Should be very interesting.

Speaker 3 But protests are important against authoritarianism.

Speaker 3 Protests right now in our moment

Speaker 3 are a really salient and important part of the pushback to the militarized, chaotic physical force that Trump is using against not just immigrants, but Americans all over this country.

Speaker 3 And given that, it probably should come as no surprise that the Trump administration is trying to give themselves all sorts of new, very intrusive powers against American citizens who might want to protest against them.

Speaker 3 And this is a subject that I think there is a real media challenge in terms of conveying the seriousness of this stuff. And I have struggled it with myself.
This is a story that I care about a lot.

Speaker 3 I think it's hard to convey. It's hard to get people to picture exactly the risk here.

Speaker 3 Not too long ago, a couple of years ago, I wrote the introduction to this book. It's called Pegasus, How a Spy in Your Pocket Threatens the End of Privacy, Dignity, and Democracy.

Speaker 3 I did not write this book. It's an excellent book.
It's written by two amazing investigative award-winning journalists from France.

Speaker 3 I wrote the introduction to that book, though, because I've been basically like standing on my head, contorting myself, trying to figure out a way to do this story, how to make it make sense to an American audience that we need to watch out now in this generation today, we need to watch out for a kind of authoritarian surveillance technology.

Speaker 3 that was never ever available to

Speaker 3 authoritarian regimes in the past, but is available to authoritarian regimes now.

Speaker 3 And in our time, this technology has been sitting on the table like a loaded gun, waiting for a would-be dictator to come to power in America and use it against us.

Speaker 3 You may remember when the Washington Post columnist and longtime Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi was kidnapped and murdered.

Speaker 3 You may remember the salient detail that they cut up his body with a bone saw.

Speaker 3 Responsibility for Khashoggi's murder has been laid squarely at the feet of the Saudi government. The tactical means by which they got to him has in part been laid to a piece of spyware.

Speaker 3 Cell phone spyware called Pegasus. It's spyware that infects your phone.
They target your phone. You don't have to do anything wrong to be infected with it.

Speaker 3 You don't have to click on anything or do anything. They infect your phone with this spyware without you ever knowing it.
Your phone shows no sign of it.

Speaker 3 But once they have infected your phone, they get access to everything that is on your phone and everything that you do with your phone. They can access its location at any time.

Speaker 3 They can turn on the microphone to hear what's happening where you are. They can turn on the camera to see you and what's around you.

Speaker 3 They can see all of the photos on your phone, all of your contacts, all of your messages, all of your notes to self, everything. Even stuff that you might think is encrypted.

Speaker 3 It's not encrypted when you look at it on your phone. If you can look at it on your phone, they will have it.

Speaker 3 People close to Jamal Khashoggi were found to have been targeted, to have had their phones targeted with Pegasus software before he was murdered.

Speaker 3 Pegasus has been used to target opposition politicians and activists and lawyers and journalists all over the world, some of whom have subsequently been assassinated by despotic regimes.

Speaker 3 When this kind of a spyware surveillance tool emerged as a favored weapon for authoritarian governments and murderous dictatorships around the world, the Joe Biden administration banned the U.S.

Speaker 3 government from ever using that particular spyware or anything like it.

Speaker 3 Well, then Donald Trump was elected and the Trump administration has now quietly reversed that ban.

Speaker 3 And indeed, they have now contracted with a company that makes exactly that same kind of spyware as Pegasus.

Speaker 3 And which part of the Trump administration is using it? Which part of the Trump administration has been given this surveillance tool? ICE.

Speaker 3 And are they using it just against immigrants? Yeah, right, as if.

Speaker 3 Headline in the Washington Post.

Speaker 3 ICE amps up its surveillance powers. ICE's acting director says the agency will deploy its elite investigative officers to probe anti-ICE protest networks.

Speaker 3 Former officials have expressed concern that ICE now has a green light not only to monitor immigrant communities, but also to carry out broad surveillance of Americans exercising their First Amendment right to oppose government action.

Speaker 3 U.S. citizens who may not themselves be suspected of crimes.

Speaker 3 According to the Electronic Privacy Information Center, quote, we don't know if law enforcement or ICE are even getting search warrants to deploy this software.

Speaker 3 Paragon, the company that makes this version of this no-click, take over your phone software, which Trump has now given to ICE.

Speaker 3 Paragon software has been used by the Italian government to infect the phones of opposition politicians, opposition politicians, and activists who help immigrants.

Speaker 3 Penlink, another surveillance company that provides real-time location data about you to the government without a warrant, it's been used in the past to target opposition politicians and activists in Mexico and also in Hong Kong.

Speaker 3 Now our government and specifically ICE

Speaker 3 has those

Speaker 3 and more.

Speaker 3 Again, supposedly to use in their, you know, mission against immigrants, but also apparently to use against Americans who are protesting against them and to use that stuff with or without a warrant and with or without any restraint at all.

Speaker 3 This turns your own phone into a spy against you. This is a surveillance capability I have been laying awake at night thinking about for the past couple of years.

Speaker 3 Now Trump is in power. And Americans are protesting against him every single day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Speaker 3 And so naturally, he is happily signing the contracts that give his government this power.

Speaker 3 And he is handing this power to the most untrained, most lawless, most aggressive, pseudo-military parts of his government to use against American citizens

Speaker 3 without warrants and without us being notified that it's happening.

Speaker 3 What are they going to do to us with this stuff? And what do we do about it? Expert help on that here. Next.

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Speaker 1 Through it all, Planned Parenthood has been on the front lines, providing care, defending patients, fighting back.

Speaker 1 But the Trump administration and Congress passed a law to defund Planned Parenthood, putting care for 1.1 million patients at risk. Planned Parenthood isn't backing down.

Speaker 1 They're still here, protecting access to birth control, cancer screenings, abortion, and more. Visit plannedparenthood.org/slash defend and donate today.

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Speaker 3 You might remember earlier this year, I wasn't here just on Mondays. I was here every night of the week for the first hundred days of Donald Trump's presidency.

Speaker 3 And for the very last couple of shows of those first 100 days, I picked out a few choice topics I thought were really worth focusing in on in the months ahead.

Speaker 3 Things I thought we should keep an eye on as Trump's second term unfolded.

Speaker 3 And so on the very last night of the 100 days, what was the last thing to think about that I left you with as the culminating thing of the last 100 days?

Speaker 3 Last night of the show, we focused on what are they doing with all of our data?

Speaker 3 Trump administration, specifically Elon Musk's Doge, was on this mad dash to inexplicably vacuum up Americans' personal data and then to merge it into some kind of master database to remove decades of restrictions on how our data can be combined and shared and used within the government.

Speaker 3 What do they want all that data on us for? What could they be trying to do with it? What could this mean to us regular humans in our regular lives?

Speaker 3 On that point, on the last night of the 100 days, we brought in investigative reporter Julia Engwin, who has reported on data privacy and security for years and who is very good at explaining it to regular people.

Speaker 3 She wrote in the New York Times that Doge appeared to be assembling a sprawling domestic surveillance system for the Trump administration, one that could allow them to create

Speaker 3 the sine qua non, right? The hallmark desire of authoritarian regimes everywhere. A comprehensive master database with comprehensive files on every single person.

Speaker 3 person in the country that they can use without restriction. That is what we were talking about on that last night of the first 100 days.

Speaker 3 Keep an eye on what they're doing with all of our data, how they are expanding their surveillance powers,

Speaker 3 and what they're going to do to us with it.

Speaker 3 Well, now here we are, half a year later, and we are learning about one very specific way the Trump administration is gaining new power and control over us that they have never had before.

Speaker 3 And it is this sudden and rapid escalation in the surveillance capabilities they are buying for ICE,

Speaker 3 including technology that could allow ICE to hack into people's cell phones and see everything that person is doing without the phone's owner ever knowing that the government is in there.

Speaker 3 Even though ICE's purported jurisdiction is immigration, it's right there in the name, they are already reportedly planning to use the surveillance technology against U.S.

Speaker 3 citizens, against anyone they deem an anti-ICE extremist. I want to know what this means for our rights and for our daily lives.
I know just the person to ask about this.

Speaker 3 Joining us now here in studio is Julia Engwin. She is a New York Times contributing opinion writer and the founder of Proof News.

Speaker 3 She's the author of Dragnet Nation, a quest for privacy, security, and freedom in a world of relentless surveillance. Ms.
Anguin, it's really great to have you here. Thank you.
So great to be here.

Speaker 3 Am I freaking out for no reason?

Speaker 4 I wish I could say you were, but unfortunately, this is much worse than I think we all expected it to be.

Speaker 4 When I wrote my book, Dragnet Nation, a decade ago, all the reviews said that I was basically hysterical. And if you look back at that book, it was far less than what is happening now.

Speaker 4 It is far worse than anyone predicted. And that's largely because of exactly what you're talking about.
We didn't have at that time spyware that could just infect your phone with no clicks.

Speaker 4 We didn't have at that time facial recognition technology. And we didn't have a government buying it and promising to use it on its own citizens.
That's new.

Speaker 3 What is the

Speaker 3 thing you are most worried about in terms of how the government will use this technology against us?

Speaker 4 Well, I think we already know one thing, which is they're definitely, ICE is using it the most right now.

Speaker 4 And they are really, it seems like, going to get people's locations so they could go round them up.

Speaker 4 You know, I think people haven't really paid attention to the fact that they tapped, we now know that they've tapped into the Medicaid database. They're using, combing through for addresses.

Speaker 4 They're also doing that through the IRS database.

Speaker 4 so they are looking for people's addresses and if they can't find out through that then they're using this technology to track their phones they've been flying drones at protests to track protesters and maybe identify them so we already know that ICE is doing a lot of surveillance but I think what we don't really comprehend because it's so new is the fact that the government has now redefined domestic terrorism to this really vague thing Antifa.

Speaker 3 Anybody who's against fascism, anybody who's anti-fascist is a domestic terrorist.

Speaker 4 So that means anyone who showed up at No Kings, anyone who's expressed dissent against lawlessness that's occurring by this administration could be designated.

Speaker 4 So I think what we're really mentally not prepared for is the idea that we could be under a very oppressive surveillance regime.

Speaker 4 Because the problem is with surveillance, the way it works is if they want to get something on you, there's always something.

Speaker 4 If you go through the phone records of somebody, you will find something embarrassing, you'll find something illegal, something

Speaker 4 that you can hang somebody out to dry with.

Speaker 3 Or that you could concoct and say that you found it.

Speaker 4 Yes, exactly. And then they'd have to fight it for years in court.
And so I think we are really on the cusp of a world where

Speaker 4 I really fear that all dissent will be so dangerous, right? And then, of course, they've scared everyone with like, if they catch you, they're going to send you to some gulag, right?

Speaker 4 So, people are going to be very terrified to speak up.

Speaker 4 People are already terrified, but I'm really worried that the biggest fear of a surveillance regime is actually how much it chills people's speech.

Speaker 3 In terms of due process, here, I know that they use cell phone location data for all sorts of reasons in law enforcement and other government purposes.

Speaker 3 But my understanding is that they need a warrant in order to essentially triangulate you

Speaker 3 on cell phone,

Speaker 3 using your in terms of finding your cell phone location and therefore finding you.

Speaker 3 Is there any reason to believe that ICE would have different constraints in terms of due process than other law enforcement agencies would have in terms of using this against Americans?

Speaker 4 Well, first of all, to use cell phone location data, they actually need something like slightly below a warrant. So it still has to go to a judge, but it's not quite as high a standard.

Speaker 4 So we already are in a little bit of a gray area and then i think what we're seeing with this administration is defying court orders and etc so i worry about them not getting those process especially when you see the kind of hiring they're doing at ice mass hiring very little training um emboldening these people to with weapons that they've never used so i I would like to believe that they're going to use this slightly lesser search warrant standard that they are supposed to be held to, but I am concerned about that.

Speaker 3 The idea of a mass and totalitarian surveillance state

Speaker 3 is a science fiction project in most cases. In our case, it's going to be something that we're going to be covering regularly.
I look forward to having you back to talk about it, Julia.

Speaker 4 Thank you.

Speaker 3 Thank you very much. Julia Engwin is an investigative reporter and New York Times contributing opinion writer.
All right, we've got more news ahead tonight. Stay with us.

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Speaker 3 Virginia Democratic Party sent around this news the other day, quote, not one, not two, but three reports have come out issuing warning signs for Virginia's economy due to Trump's attacks on Virginia jobs.

Speaker 3 And then they linked to this story from Cardinal News, quote, Virginia's GDP growth drops from 6.2% to 1.7%.

Speaker 3 Three new economic reports issue warnings about why and what comes next.

Speaker 3 Those three reports are all from nonpartisan institutions, Brookings Institution, Old Dominion University, and the University of Virginia.

Speaker 3 Cardinal Cardinal News sums them up, quote, all three reports cite the same thing for this sour economic outlook in Virginia.

Speaker 3 President Donald Trump's policies, which have reduced federal employment and increased tariffs, both of which have hit Virginia uniquely hard.

Speaker 3 So Trump's policies are destroying the economy of Virginia.

Speaker 3 News like that makes this an especially hard time for Virginia Republicans to ask voters to keep them in power, while they are all also pledging support for everything Trump does, while Trump is single-handedly wrecking the economy of their state.

Speaker 3 But that really is what Virginia Republicans are doing and what they're up against ahead of that pivotal election next week.

Speaker 3 Polls are suggesting that Democrats are going to win in Virginia, starting with the governor's race. Likewise, New Jersey is holding its statewide elections next week.

Speaker 3 Polls in New Jersey suggest that Democrats are on track to hold the governor's seat there as well, although the New Jersey race appears to be closer than the one in Virginia.

Speaker 3 The Trump administration has announced that they will send some kind of election monitors to polling places in one pivotal county in New Jersey, one that swung toward Trump last time.

Speaker 3 Those election monitors will report to Attorney General Pam Bondi and Harmit Dylan of the Civil Rights Division at DOJ.

Speaker 3 Oh boy, you may recall both Bondi and Dylan were part of Trump's efforts to throw out the results of the 2020 election, but now they'll be supervising the election monitors in New Jersey.

Speaker 3 The administration is also sending election monitors from DOJ to the state of California, several counties in southern and central California.

Speaker 3 That's while California voters will next week be deciding on a new congressional map. to try to balance out the gerrymandering that Trump has ordered up in Republican-controlled states.

Speaker 3 Polls in California show that California voters are likely to approve the new districts,

Speaker 3 but

Speaker 3 they aren't going to send those monitors.

Speaker 3 California officials today announced that the state will send its own monitors to the polls to watch the federal monitors that are being sent from DOJ.

Speaker 3 California's Attorney General says, quote, we cannot be naive. The Republican Party asked for the U.S.
DOJ to come in.

Speaker 3 California appears concerned about these elections and about these monitors from the federal government. How worried should the rest of us be?

Speaker 3 Hold that thought.

Speaker 3 After the Trump administration announced it was sending poll monitors to California and New Jersey, poll monitors who will answer to Trump Attorney General Pam Bondi, Democratic elections lawyer Mark Elias wrote this.

Speaker 3 He said, quote, they are sending these DOJ officials to the polls to do Trump's bidding, to gather information for him and his administration to misuse and wage war on voters and elections.

Speaker 3 I cannot tell you exactly what form that will take. Trump may not even know how he plans to abuse this process, but I know this.
Minority voters will not be protected.

Speaker 3 Voting rights will not be preserved. Free and fair elections will not benefit.
Trump will exploit whatever he can under the guise of security or integrity.

Speaker 3 It is our job to not give him the opportunity.

Speaker 3 Joining us now is Mark Elias, the founder of Democracy Dockett, an elections attorney involved in suing the Trump administration over voting rights and a host of other issues. Mr.

Speaker 3 Elias, it's nice to see you. Thanks very much for taking time to be here tonight.

Speaker 14 Thanks for having me back.

Speaker 3 So let me ask you just what that means that you wrote today. It is our job not to give him the opportunity.

Speaker 14 Yeah, so look, Donald Trump has telegraphed what he's doing here in broad strokes. Yesterday, he posted on social media that he already believes there's fraud in

Speaker 14 California. You know, he said that, you know, that watch how totally dishonest the California prop vote is, millions of ballots being shipped.

Speaker 14 Like that's that's the predicate he is laying down before these monitors start to collect whatever information they collect.

Speaker 14 And that information will be mischaracterized, it'll be misused, it'll be abused, so that Donald Trump, when that ballot initiative passes, as it will, will claim that there was massive fraud.

Speaker 14 And when Mikey Sherrill wins in New Jersey, he will claim there was massive fraud.

Speaker 14 And he will use that as the jumping off point for the 2026 election when he is really worried that he is going to lose power.

Speaker 3 When he makes those sort of claims, will it matter or how will it matter that the Justice Department will have sent these federal election monitors in?

Speaker 3 How will that, if you see that as his strategy moving ahead with these elections, these off-year elections this year,

Speaker 3 moving in towards 2026,

Speaker 3 how do the federal election monitors affect that?

Speaker 14 Yeah, so remember, you know, I have a lot of experience suing

Speaker 14 and litigating against Donald Trump. I mean, I represented Joe Biden and we beat him like a drum over 60 times after 2020.

Speaker 14 What's different this time is that he will have the United States government, the Department of Justice, show up in courtrooms and say preposterously false things, but that will be given

Speaker 14 the premature of the United States. And look, Rachel, this is a problem we're seeing across the country.

Speaker 14 I mean, they are claiming that they need the National Guard and the military deployed deployed in cities because he says they're on fire when, in fact, there is no fires.

Speaker 14 And too many judges, frankly, are still giving DOJ the benefit of the doubt.

Speaker 14 So, the difference here, and the reason why the DOJ being involved and these monitors being involved is so problematic is because our judicial system is still set up to believe that when Department of Justice lawyers show up and say, we found X, that in fact they found X.

Speaker 14 When they say Y is true, that Y is true. When in fact, as you pointed out in your introduction, which was excellent,

Speaker 14 these are not not career officials working for a normal justice department. They are working for Pam Bondi and ultimately for the White House.

Speaker 3 What's the best strategy against what you think Trump is doing here?

Speaker 14 So I think it's twofold. I think number one, it is for there to be public awareness, right?

Speaker 14 So that we can pre-butt the misinformation and the disinformation that he is going to spread to try to create an environment that allows him to create mischief, like I said, in 2026.

Speaker 14 The second thing, though, is we need to broaden the aperture. You know, in your last segment, you talked about privacy and the fact that they're building a national database.

Speaker 14 Well, my law firm is also involved in a case in six, I'm sorry, in eight cases where the Department of Justice is trying to collect voter data on every single American.

Speaker 14 Every single American who's ever registered to vote, the Department of Justice is trying to collect that data from all 50 states. And why are they collecting that?

Speaker 14 They're not collecting it to make elections easier. They're not collecting it to make people safer.

Speaker 14 They're collecting it because as they head towards 2026, they want to be able to weaponize that data along with a lot of other information that they've collected for a lot of bad reasons, including to try to make the 2026 elections less free and fair.

Speaker 14 So what we need to do is we need to be prepared for that fight. We need to stand up tall against it.
We need to litigate against it.

Speaker 14 But most importantly, we need to know it's happening so that we can explain and contextualize this to our friends and our families, our clients, our customers, our bowling partners, and our bridge partners.

Speaker 3 Mark, let me also ask you about a new lawsuit that you filed today in New York. This is a challenge effectively to New York's congressional map.

Speaker 3 My read on this is that this puts New York in the mix in terms of states that may essentially redistrict their congressional map for partisan advantage because of the way that Trump has insisted that red states must do it,

Speaker 3 Democratic-controlled states now trying to fight back on those same lines.

Speaker 14 Yeah, and I make no apologies for that.

Speaker 14 I mean, the fact is my law firm and I, we are involved now in eight different lawsuits in eight different states involving congressional lines, everything from Alabama and Mississippi to Missouri

Speaker 14 to Texas and now

Speaker 14 New York. And I expect that number will grow in the coming days.

Speaker 14 You know, what we've identified in New York is that the districts that were drawn, at least one of them does not comply with state law, and therefore we are suing.

Speaker 14 And we think it is important that this case be heard quickly and that the result be a new redrawn map by the state legislature.

Speaker 14 And like I said, I make no apologies for standing up against what Donald Trump is trying to do while also not agreeing that we are going to unilaterally disarm because that will be the death knell of democracy.

Speaker 3 Attorney Mark Elias, the founder of Democracy Dockett. Mr.
Elias, it's always a pleasure to have you. Thank you for being here tonight.

Speaker 14 Thank you.

Speaker 3 We'll be right back. Stay with us.

Speaker 3 All right, that's going to do it for me tonight.

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