Possible war crime puts Trump's 'illegal orders' freakout in new context

holidays are here, filled with gatherings, toasts, and plenty of cheer. Make every moment shine with Total Wine and More, where you'll find it all at the lowest prices.

Raise the spirits of the season with rich whiskeys, smooth tequilas, and festive liqueurs, perfect for sipping or gifting. For wine lovers, explore everything from velvety Pinots to elegant champagne.

You'll always find what you love and love what you find. Only at Total Wine and More, spirits not sold in Virginia, North Carolina.
Drink responsibly, B21.

Welcome back to Listen to Your Heart. I'm Jerry.
And I'm Jerry's Heart. Today's topic, Repatha, Evalokimab.
Heart, why'd you pick this one?

Well, Jerry, for people who have had a heart attack, like us, diet and exercise might not be enough to lower the risk of another one. Okay.

To help know if we're at risk, we should be getting our LDLC, our bad cholesterol, checked, and talking to our doctor. I'm listening.

And if it's still too high, Repatha can be added to a statin to lower our LDLC and our heart attack risk. Hmm.
Guess it's time to ask about Repatha. Do not take Rapatha if you're allergic to it.

Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get medical help right away if you have trouble breathing or swallowing, swelling of the face, lips, tongue, throat, or arms.

Common side effects include runny nose, sore throat, common cold symptoms, flu or flu-like symptoms, back pain, high blood sugar, and redness, pain, or bruising at the injection site.

Listen to your heart. Ask your doctor about Repatha.
Learn more at rapatha.com or call 1-844-RAPATHA.

Really happy to have you here. The new Gallup poll out today is terrible news for the president.
Just absolutely terrible. His approval rating right now is minus 24.

The president is 24 points underwater in his approval rating. 36% of the country approves of him.
60%

disapproves. Just absolutely stunning.
You know, not even one year in.

And on the issues, it's even worse. It just, it's worse just because it's so relentlessly bad for him.
No ray of light anywhere here. Do you approve of President Trump on the issue of crime?

No, by a nine-point margin. Do you approve of President Trump on the issue of foreign affairs? No.
by a 15-point margin. Do you approve of Trump on trade? No, by a 19-point margin.

Do you approve of Trump on immigration?

He really wants you to love him on the issue of immigration. No, the American people do not approve of his handling of immigration.
And what's the margin? The margin is 25 points.

The American people disapprove of his handling of immigration more than they approve of it by 25 percentage points.

Huh, turns out all those propaganda videos of you being mean to immigrants aren't working. Do you approve of Trump on how he is handling things in the Middle East? No, by a 25-point margin.

Do you approve of how Trump is handling the economy? No, 26-point margin. Do you approve of how he's handling the Russia and Ukraine war? No, by a 29-point margin.

Do you approve of his handling of the budget? No, by a 33-point margin. Do you approve of his handling of health care? No, also by a 33-point margin.

Last week, you might remember me saying on this show at this time,

President Trump and the Republicans said they had a fix for the disaster they have created on on Americans' health insurance premiums.

But then for some reason last week, they got shy. They unveiled precisely nothing on the subject.
It's been a week now since they said they were going to unveil their fix. Still nothing.

This is getting to be a really urgent thing.

Tens of millions of Americans are going to see their health insurance costs spike through the roof, their monthly premiums spike through the roof this month, at the end of this month on December 31st.

and Trump and the Republicans apparently still have no plan at all for how to fix the disaster they just created on that subject.

And that is when he is already 33 points underwater in terms of how the American public views his handling of healthcare.

Today, December 1st is World AIDS Day.

Since the 1980s, this is the day where worldwide we remember the millions of people killed in the HIV and AIDS pandemic, when we renew our efforts to fight that pandemic, the Trump administration decided this year that the United States of America will no longer observe World AIDS Day at all.

And presumably that's because they have gutted all of America's programs to fight AIDS, including the bipartisan George W.

Bush-era program that has provided HIV treatment to people who can't afford it, the PEPFAR program, which has literally saved millions of lives, but Trump and Marco Rubio inexplicably and

without giving any stated reason decided to shut it down.

Today, ACT Up Philadelphia and HealthGap and other groups shut down traffic near the White House to make clear that the American people are not going to go quietly on that one.

And frankly, nobody's being quiet right now.

I mean, usually around Thanksgiving and the start of the holiday season, the start of the really cold weather, you expect things to kind of chill out a little bit. That is not happening at all.

This weekend, Saturday in New York City, you might have seen some of this coverage.

Quote, a spontaneous crowd of protesters chased many of the federal agents down Lafayette Street as the agents returned to the ICE offices at 26 Federal Plaza.

Quote, dozens of agents had appeared to be gathering for an immigration raid nearby when protesters gathered outside the parking garage where agents from U.S.

Customs and Border Patrol and Homeland Security had begun arriving. By the early afternoon, nearly 200 people had gathered on the street outside, chanting and yelling at the agents.

The confrontation appeared to foil the planned raid.

In the afternoon, the chaos of the confrontation was still evident on Canal Street, with broken slats of wood, garbage bags, and trampled flower bouquets strewed along the street.

But the agents, the federal immigration agents, were gone, having driven off in the direction of the Holland Tunnel and toward New Jersey.

It's reporting in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal reporting that many of the people who joined that protest on Saturday in New York were just passersby, just pedestrians, people who were out, you know,

doing their daily stuff, people who were not setting out to protest that day at all. But they nevertheless jumped right in when they saw it was Trump's immigration agents in their city.

One advocate at the scene described it as, quote, organic.

saying, quote, New Yorkers saw what was happening and started to rally. People are stepping up to defend one another.

CNN reports on protesters chanting, ice out of New York,

and locking arms.

CNN's reporting says a senior official at HSI at Homeland Security Investigations had to apologize to New York's police commissioner after this debacle

when she reamed him out for what the federal agents tried and failed to do in New York City. chased out of the city

by,

among other things, just passersby, people people who are not planning on protesting, who saw what was happening and rallied with their fellow New Yorkers to link arms with them and chase those people out of town.

In New Orleans, they're preparing for Trump's immigration agents to go attack that city next. People in New Orleans protested against that this weekend.

People also lined up in New Orleans to buy out the entire stock. at a beloved local taqueria in the city, Taqueria Guerrero.

After that, Taqueria said they were going to close in anticipation of this attack from Trump's immigration agents.

They would close to protect both their customers and their staff until Trump's agents are gone.

Their neighbors and customers buying out their stock to help them out as they close down to protect themselves.

Cincinnati Inquirer just profiled a very different kind of pushback in a Trump country county in Ohio, in Butler County, Ohio.

That's a county where Trump won the last election last year with 62% of the vote. Nevertheless, quote, a group almost 70 strong

shows up weekly to

commissioner meetings in this conservative Ohio county to protest local officials' agreement with ICE. The group protesting, quote, is mostly grandmas.

Why are they such an older group? that's turning up every week to protest at the county commissioner meetings.

Well, one founding member of the newly formed Butler County for Immigrant Justice group tells the Cincinnati Enquirer that it's mostly old folks who are participating in these protests because the county commissioners hold their meetings at 9.30 a.m.

on Tuesdays. Well, who do you know who's available every Tuesday at 9.30 a.m.
to go protest?

Retirees, that's who. That's who's available at that time.
And so 82-year-old Ann Janssen from 7 Mile, Ohio tells the Cincinnati Enquirer, quote, I can do it, therefore I need to.

This was the Indiana State House today in Red State, Indiana.

People telling Indiana Republicans to not do it, to not go along with Trump's demands that they redraw Indiana's congressional maps to take away Democratic seats in Congress.

After President Trump this weekend used a disgusting slur, He used the R word, a slur for developmentally disabled people. He used it as a political insult this weekend.

That cost him one key Republican vote on those maps in Indiana. One Republican Indiana state senator has a daughter with Down syndrome.

He said, quote, this is not the first time our president has used these insulting and derogatory references, and his choices of words have consequences. Quote, I will be voting no on redistricting.

There were protests against Trump this weekend in Mount Kisco, New York, and in Montclair, Montclair, New Jersey, and in Yakima, Washington.

And, you know, here's the thing that we keep an eye on these protests every week. I got to tell you, this is sort of a category of protests that appears to be really taking off.

You might remember this time last week, we reported on a protest at a Home Depot in Monrovia, California, in the Los Angeles area,

at which people lined up by the hundreds to buy ice scrapers. So they picked up an ice scraper and then they got in line to spend 17 cents to buy one of these ice scrapers.

And then as soon as they had bought the ice scraper in line, they then got back in line in a customer service line.

Again, by the hundreds, hundreds of people did this, they got back in line at the customer service line to return the ice scraper they had just bought and get their 17 cents back.

They created these lines that absolutely brought that Home Depot to a halt. They called it a buy-in.

The reason they did this is they want Home Depot to stop letting Home Depot stores and Home Depot parking lots be used by ICE, be used by Trump's immigration agents for these raids.

And, you know, we saw a bunch of these over the last few days

keyed to Black Friday. We saw boycott Home Depot actions and we ain't buying it, boycott Home Depot actions all over the country.
We saw it happen at

Home Depot's in Atlanta and in Snellville, Georgia, in Cleveland, Ohio out there in the snow. Boycott Home Depot, Depot, defend democracy.

We also saw this one at a Home Depot in Brooklyn, New York, and this one, you got to turn up the sound, this one you need to hear.

We don't want no more deportations at the Home Depot parking lot.

We don't want no more deportations.

We don't want no more deportations.

We don't want no more deportations at the Home Depot parking lot.

We don't want no more deportations.

We don't want no more deportations.

We don't want no more deportations from the bottom of our hearts.

That's the Resistance Revival Chorus

as people start boycotting Home Depot.

demanding that they stop letting Home Depot stores, and in particular Home Depot parking lots, be used by Trump's immigration agents for these deportation rates.

We saw protests this weekend targeting Avello Airlines, which flies deportation flights for ICE.

We saw de-ice your planes protests against Avello at the airport in Concord, North Carolina, where Avello flies, also at the New Haven, Connecticut airport where Avello flies, where we've seen a lot of protests against them.

We also saw protests against Avello Airlines at the Albany, New York airport, where it was freaking fracking cold.

And people protesting against Avello in the snow brought chains to show what it's like for Avello to have people chained up on deportation flights and then try to sell you that same seat on that same plane for your next flight to your holiday destination.

The Apple store in Portland got a Black Friday picket and protest on Friday because Apple has caved to the Trump administration's demands that they take down apps from the Apple App Store, which people have made to warn each other about where ICE operations are happening.

People pressuring ICE, excuse me, pressuring Apple now to reverse that decision on the App Store.

We've also been keeping eyes on the protests in Illinois and elsewhere, targeting AT ⁇ T stores, telling that company, AT ⁇ T, that they need to end their contracts with ICE.

Economic boycotts can often have a much more immediate, much more lasting effect than typical political protest actions.

We know this from contemporary history. We also know this from our history history.

70 years ago today,

today at 6.06 p.m. 70 years ago, Rosa Parks refused a bus driver's order to get up out of her seat on the bus so a white person could take her seat.

That act of refusal was the start of the Montgomery bus boycott. She did that again December 1st, 70 years ago today.

Less than a week later, December 5th, 70 years ago,

less than a week after she refused to move to the back of the bus,

more than 5,000 people turned out to attend the first mass meeting to plan a boycott of the bus system in Montgomery, Alabama, an economic boycott.

That boycott went on for 382 long days, more than a year, 382 days

before that act of economic protest and logistical genius and economic sacrifice by African Americans in Alabama forced a change.

And public bus segregation was ruled unconstitutional.

And as Americans, that's not just something to be like retroactively impressed by, right? That's not just something to learn by heart at school and memorize.

That's our moral foundation as a country. That's our strategic and moral inheritance as modern Americans.

We can learn from Americans who have gone before us and fought against long odds to stop our government from doing terrible things.

I mentioned a couple of months ago that I was going to be doing two things before the end of the year. I was going to be doing a pair of projects

to try to sort of build on that idea, to help

myself, honestly, think harder, to hopefully help us all think harder

about

other times in our modern history where Americans have done hard things

and won. And it took a long time and it was difficult, but they won.

Where Americans, where previous generations of Americans can teach us how to win, how to beat the government when the government is at its worst and when it feels like the odds are against you.

How to make the American government stop doing the worst things.

There are two projects I said before the end of the year.

The first of those was the documentary that we aired here this fall, just a few weeks ago on MSNBC called Andrew Young, the Dirty Work, Andrew Young's own story in his own words about the nitty-gritty, unglamorous, laborious, detail work that it takes, that it took him.

to help steer the civil rights movement to its victories in the 1960s.

The second of those projects that I said I was going to get out before the end of the year, the first one was the Andrew Young documentary. The second one of those projects comes out today.

And it's a podcast, a six-part mini-series podcast. It's free to listen to it anywhere where you can listen to podcasts.
It's called Burn Order.

And Burn Order is about the American government making the decision in 1942

to incarcerate more than 120,000 people.

Men, women, and children, whole American families incarcerated for years purely on the basis of their race. Most of them were American citizens.

We generally talk about it, we sort of shorthand it now as the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II, but it was really the incarceration of Japanese Americans in legit prison camps.

And they really were there for years.

And I've just made this podcast, Burn Order, to tell tell some of the story of how we got that policy and who fought against it, and how they ultimately got an investigation of what happened, an apology,

and they got all the court cases around it overturned, and they got a pledge that America would never do it again, and they got reparations for the people who survived it.

Who stood against that? How did they fight it? And how, in the end, did they turn the American government around

to apologize, to regret it, to say we'd never do it again, and to pay reparations.

Here's a little piece of it.

She was talking to someone and then noticed this document on the desk of somebody else and kind of looked at it and just kind of thought, wow.

And she opens it up and she finds these handwritten notes in the margins and she realizes, oh boy.

She talked about it with her eyes getting really large and just saying, wow, this is, do you know what this is?

When Iko picked it up and started leafing through, she immediately, I mean, her expression, oh my goodness,

look what I found.

The document that ICO found that day, it's a government report, but it's also a ghost. There's a good reason she never would have looked for it.

It's because There's no file, no record anywhere, no index card, no catalog that would have ever pointed her to it.

The only record anyone has found, the only record ICO has ever found about this document explicitly says that every single copy of this document has been destroyed.

Every single copy of this government report was officially certified to have been incinerated, destroyed on purpose by fire.

But here it is,

not even singed, not even smoky, sitting right in front of her.

As soon as I opened it, wow, I said, wow, this is it.

You know, and it was luck. It was luck.
If I hadn't walked in that day, it might not have been there.

It wasn't really luck.

Aiko was there that day because she was there. basically every day.

And because of that, because of of her dogged persistence, she's made this find. She has spotted this document that the U.S.
government never wanted anyone to see.

This document they insisted must be destroyed because of what it had the potential to reveal about one of the most disturbing chapters in American history.

We all instantly understood that if this gets out, the government is going to look really, really bad. This was something that nobody could have foreseen in their entire life.

I still get a little choked up about that because it changed my life.

Ultimately, it would change a lot of lives.

This retiree, this self-described little old housewife, she was about to change the course of American history.

So that's from Burn Order, my new podcast. It's six episodes.
It's out as of today. It's free to listen on any podcast app.
Like I said, first two episodes are out today.

The rest of the episodes will come out on Mondays from here on out.

Also, if you're in the Los Angeles area, you can come see me and some people who worked with us on the podcast at a live event at the Orpheum Theater in Los Angeles on Sunday, December 14th.

I think there are still some tickets available for that.

But you know, at a time now, when the president is rounding up immigrants and sticking them in hastily constructed detention camps, when he is now threatening that he's going to strip Americans of their U.S.

citizenship, which is something they threatened against Japanese Americans too, at a time when he is calling immigrants from Venezuela alien enemies, because he says we're somehow at war with Venezuela, but none of that makes sense because we're supposedly at war with Venezuela because of drug trafficking, while at the same time Trump is pardoning a different Latin American president who really was convicted of massive drug smuggling into the United States.

When the administration's actions are inexplicable and just mad and cruel in equal measure, it is really worth remembering that this guy is profoundly, deeply, wildly unpopular in this country.

He is 24 points underwater in his approval rating. The people of the United States do not like what he is doing.
They are not buying what he is selling.

And, and also,

we as Americans have inherited in this country a rich and deep and forgive me, fairly badass tradition of putting a stop to it when our government goes wrong, of refusing to go along, of boycotting and protesting and showing up at every meeting, even the ones at 9.30 on a Tuesday, and ultimately discovering the truth and holding them accountable for it.

And in the end, winning.

So that they are ashamed to ever admit what they did, so that their best hope is that history forgets them and can't find them.

That's the lesson of Japanese American incarceration in World War II. That's the lesson of the civil rights movement and the Montgomery bus boycott.
That may yet be the lesson of our time today.

We can learn from Americans who have done this before in previous generations.

We can learn also from people around the world fighting their own authoritarian takeovers in their own ways with their own traditions.

We're going to do some of both of those things here tonight on this show. Stay with us.

This message comes from the International Rescue Committee. Co-founded with help from Albert Einstein, the IRC has been providing humanitarian aid for more than 90 years.

The IRC helps refugees whose lives are disrupted by conflict and disaster, supporting recovery efforts in places like Gaza and Ukraine, and responding within 72 hours of crisis.

Donate today by visiting rescue.org/slash rebuild. This episode is presented by Planned Parenthood Federation of America.

This year, lawmakers have attacked our rights, stretched the truth, and taken away access to health care.

Through it all, Planned Parenthood has been on the front lines, providing care, defending patients, fighting back.

But the Trump administration and Congress passed a law to defund Planned Parenthood, putting care for 1.1 million patients at risk. Planned Parenthood isn't backing down.

They're still here, protecting access to birth control, cancer screenings, abortion, and more. Visit plannedparenthood.org/slash defend and donate today.

You know, you've reached peak couple energy when your undies match. Meundies Match Me has you both covered, literally, in super soft ultramodal undies, socks, PJs, and loungewear.

Festive prints, check. Cozy vibes, double-check.
And right now, it's deal season. Get up to 50% off site-wide for Black Friday and Cyber Monday.

Take your couple game to the next level with Meundies Match Me. To get deals up to 50% off, go to meundies.com/slash SXM.
Enter promo code SXM. That's meondes.com slash SXM code SXM.

Nadia Tolokonikova was sentenced to prison in Russia when she was only 22 years old.

She is a founding member of a punk band whose name you have heard me say uncomfortably several times now on this show.

Nadia

Tolokonikova is a founding member of the group Pussy Riot

for staging a musical anti-Putin protest at an Orthodox cathedral in Moscow, Nadia and two of her bandmates were charged in 2012 with hooliganism. They look like hooligans to you.

They were convicted and sentenced to two years in prison. Ms.
Tolokonikova does not live in Russia anymore, but she very well may live inside Vladimir Putin's head.

In 2021, the Russian government labeled her a foreign agent. In 2023, Russia put her on the most wanted list after a protest art action called Putin's Ashes.

Later that year, Russia made a show of arresting her in absentia, which is not a thing.

This year, in the United States, Nadia

Tolo Konakova recreated her old Russian prison cell as art.

She was just settling into her new exhibit at the Los Angeles Museum of Contemporary Art when Donald Trump ordered National Guard troops and U.S. Marines into Los Angeles.

With the resulting protests outside and a curfew in place, the museum decided to close, which is why Ms.

Tolo Konokova ended up not inside her own police state exhibit in the Museum of Contemporary Art, but ultimately outside protesting Trump in the streets of Los Angeles, holding a big banner that reads, it's beginning to look a lot like Russia.

When facing down an authoritarian regime or a would-be authoritarian takeover of a previously democratic country, it helps to know what to look for.

If you followed the march of this president on American cities, the so-called blitzing and sweeping of American cities, then you know that after Los Angeles came Chicago, right?

Federal agents began swarming the streets of Chicago in early September, arresting thousands of people, most of them people with no criminal record whatsoever.

The people of Chicago responded with whistles and car horns and prayer circles amid the tear gas.

And downtown at the Museum of Contemporary Art Chicago, there was Nadia Tolokonikova getting ready for another staging of her police state exhibit with a recreation of her Russian prison cell

in another city facing a show of force by this American president.

While she was in the Chicago Museum being the artist inside the police state, The Russian government decided to take yet another swipe at her.

On Friday, the government of Russia moved to declare Pussy Riot an extremist organization, as if they're like al-Qaeda or something.

And from inside the Chicago Museum, Nadia Tolokonikova responded. She wrote, quote, I'm in the middle of a durational performance called Police State at MCA Chicago now.

All day long, I'm sewing police uniforms and mixing live sound at the installation that resembles a Russian prison cell, a piece that's meant to warn about surveillance authoritarianism spreading around the world like a virus.

Singing in the streets is not extremism. Doing street actions is not extremism.
Extremism is invading other countries and committing war crimes.

Being anti-fascist and wearing a Pikachu costume is not extremism.

She says, quote, and if telling the truth is extreme,

then hold my red ball.

Joining us now here on set is Nadia Tolokonokova. She's an artist, a musician, and a founding member of Pussy Riot.
A book documenting her police state exhibit comes out next week.

You can pre-order it now, along with a seven-inch record, which might be the most punk thing ever said on the Rachel Mauto Show after the name of your band. Nadia, thank you so much for being here.

I wanted to give you the mask so you could be an extremist as well. Oh, that is very kind of you.
I've come to pisser it. That is, I treasure it.
Thank you very much. It means a lot to me.

What is scary in Russia for wearing this, once we are going to become officially an extremist organization, you can actually go to jail for that.

For having something that identifies you with extremists. Exactly, for having it at home, even not wearing if they find it at home.

What's the difference between the way that you and other members of the group have been individually targeted? I mean, you've spent time in prison,

you and your colleagues have been arrested. The individual targeting of you, what's the difference between that and this declaration that the group itself is extremist?

This declaration means they want to erase us from public consciousness. because even though Russian authorities claim that we can't really influence Russian people's minds from the outside, they

made us escape our own country, live in exile.

I guess it still gets to people's minds and hearts and by

calling the entire organization illegal, you can't mention us without saying that this organization is forbidden on the territory of Russia and you can't say anything good about it because otherwise it's going to be supporting extremism.

Our

supporters, relatives

might be in trouble. If you send us any money, even one cent, you are going to be sent to prison for extremism.
If you post on Twitter or Facebook, same thing.

Recently, our president used an executive order to try to declare Antifa, which is just a general term that means anti-fascist,

a terrorist organization. And the reaction to that in the United States has mostly been dismissive, because people think that it's not operable.
It's nothing that they can act on.

But it sounds to me like it's very much in keeping with the type of playbook that you and your colleagues are up against. I wonder if you think that we're being

If we're asleep at the wheel if we're not taking these things seriously enough here.

Yes, it seems a lot like Americans prefer not to notice the destruction of democracy that is happening right in front of your nose, and it all starts with scapegoating certain groups of people.

In Russia, it's not just Busirat, obviously, it's all the supporters of Alexei Navalny, and recently it was an LGBTQ Plus movement labeled as an extremist organization. What is that supposed to mean?

And people are laughing at it until it's not funny anymore, and people are dying in jail for being part of LGBTQ plus.

So it gives the government tools to pick and choose who they want to punish.

And no, not everyone who calls themselves an anti-fascist is going to go to jail. But if Trump doesn't like you specifically, he will find a way how to use this law against you.

You've traveled around the United States a lot,

including for this current art project and these museum exhibitions exhibitions that you've been doing. What do you make about the American people's

resistance right now, our level of consciousness about the threat that we're under and the tactics that the American people have adopted so far in terms of trying to say no?

I was really impressed by the people of Chicago.

They feel a little bit less asleep than people in Los Angeles, even though the No Kings protest was absolutely amazing and very creative.

I think right now you live

under a lot of pressure, but you are in a beautiful moment when under pressure

you can produce beautiful arts, beautiful

protest actions. You know, this pressure can actually help you to be productive.
But you have to understand that there will be a moment when you won't. going to be able to do all this stuff.

So from 2010 to 2018 we were able to be active and creative and happy building community in Russia and then at some point we all got pushed out of our country. So

if you ask me about a lesson that you can learn from Russians

I think the main lesson would be don't cancel each other, talk to different groups of people within the opposition and try to build a broader coalition because I think that was one of our biggest mistakes.

Nadia Tolokonokova, artist, musician, founding member of Pussy Riot, this does mean a lot to me and I'm honored that you're here. Thank you.
Thank you. Good luck to you.
Thank you.

We'll be right back. Stay with us.

This episode is presented by Planned Parenthood Federation of America. This year, lawmakers have attacked our rights, stretched the truth, and taken away access to health care.

Through it all, Planned Parenthood has been on the front lines, providing care, defending patients, fighting back.

But the Trump administration and Congress passed a law to defund Planned Parenthood, putting care for 1.1 million patients at risk. Planned Parenthood isn't backing down.

They're still here, protecting access to birth control, cancer screenings, abortion, and more. Visit plannedparenthood.org/slash defend and donate today.

With ThreatLocker Zero Trust Protection, you can stop breaches before they happen. The result?

No stress about the latest malware or zero-day attacks, because with ThreatLocker, you block them by default. Gain more control over your environment with ThreatLocker Zero Trust Protection.

This podcast is sponsored by Goldbelly. Unwrap the magic of Goldbelly with America's most iconic food gifts shipped nationwide.

Whether it's the one and only Joe's Stone Crab from Miami, legendary steaks from Peter Lugers in New York, or decadent cakes for food icons like Ina Garden or Martha Stewart, Goldbelly has the epic gifts your friends and family will rave about for years.

Use promo code GIFT for free shipping and 20% off your first order on GoldBelly.com.

So now we know.

Now we know why President Trump and his administration got so freaked out when Democratic lawmakers, military and intelligence veterans who are now in Congress, posted that video reminding American service members that they don't have to follow illegal orders.

Now it makes sense why that caused such a freak out, right?

I mean, it was sort of, on its face, a weird thing to get upset about.

Not being obliged to follow illegal orders, that's like, you know, the sun rises in the east. It's a very normal thing.
It's a statement of law and of the basic ethos of the U.S. military.

I mean, everybody in the U.S. military, every officer, every enlisted person, everybody is taught that you don't follow illegal orders.
You can't follow illegal orders.

You must not follow illegal orders. So why are these guys freaking out that members of Congress just reiterated that one very true, long-standing, non-controversial thing?

Oh, now we know that's why they were freaking out about it.

Because now we know that in September, just weeks ago, Donald Trump's defense secretary and former Fox News Weekend co-host Pete Hegzeth reportedly gave a verbal order to

kill everybody on board a boat in the Caribbean that was suspected of drug smuggling. It's according to the Washington Post, citing a person with direct knowledge of the operation.

When a live drone feed showed two survivors of the attack on that boat clinging to the wreckage, a second missile was then fired at them to kill them so as to comply with

Hegseth's order that nobody should be left alive, even once they were shipwrecked and floating in the ocean, clinging to debris and obviously a threat to no one.

Now, when I say this is a textbook example of an illegal illegal order, I mean that literally.

As Ryan Goodman from Just Security and others have since pointed out, in the Law of War Manual at the Defense Department, in the section on refusing to obey illegal orders, the quintessential example the manual gives of an illegal order that must be refused is, quote, for example, orders to fire upon the shipwrecked would be clearly illegal.

Clearly illegal.

That is what the senior military lawyer at Southern Command reportedly concluded about the Caribbean boat strikes.

He was sidelined by the Trump administration after expressing that view, according to NBC News.

That commanding officer of Southern Command stepped down from his post early, something almost unheard of.

That also happened reportedly after he voiced concerns about whether these strikes were illegal.

The UK, our closest intelligence ally, reportedly believes these strikes are so illegal that the UK has has stopped sharing intelligence with us that might help the Trump administration carry out these strikes.

Tonight, the Washington Post reports that some of Pete Hegseth's top civilian staff are, quote, deeply alarmed about the revelations of what Hegseth ordered and are contemplating, quote, whether to leave the administration because of it.

It really seems like they've been caught doing something quite flagrantly, blatantly illegal.

So now what? That's next.

Quote, this committee is committed to providing rigorous oversight of the Defense Department's military operations in the Caribbean.

We take seriously the reports of follow-on strikes on boats alleged to be ferrying narcotics and are taking bipartisan action to gather a full accounting of the operation in question.

That is a statement signed by the top Democrat on the House Armed Services Committee, Congressman Adam Smith.

It also, and this is news, it also is signed by the Republican chairman of that committee.

Republicans joining Democrats in pledging to investigate something the Trump administration did.

Lions lying down with the lambs. It's like cats volunteering for baths.
It's like the Jets winning a football game. What is going on here?

Joining us now is Congressman Adam Smith of Washington, the top Democrat on the Armed Services Committee in the House. Sir, thank you very much for being with us tonight.

It's a pleasure to have you here.

Thanks, Rachel. And ironically, the Jets did win a football game this weekend.
So I guess we're living in a bizarre world all of a sudden.

Exactly my point. The craziest things imaginable can happen.

Let me ask you first,

for those of our viewers who are thinking, listen, the strikes to blow up these boats in the Caribbean

seem illegal enough. Why is it worse? Why is it a qualitatively different scenario? scenario?

Why is it so much more upsetting to members of Congress that there was a follow-on strike to kill survivors of one of these initial attacks?

Look, that's a very fair question. In my opinion,

there's not that much of a difference. I've always felt these boat strikes were illegal for a wide variety of reasons.

What seems to have made it different is it has gotten the attention of Republicans in Congress.

So what we're trying to do is we're trying to get through this crack in this issue here to get a focus on what is a clearly illegal action.

I love the fact that you went right to the UCMJ textbook that said, this is what we're talking about, that you can't do.

So out of that crack, I hope, number one, we can pursue this, absolutely, because I think we had a clear instance, if this happened, the way it has been reported of a war crime, but then go beyond that.

What's going on with the entire operation? It isn't even really about drugs, it doesn't seem.

if Trump is pardoning a major convicted drug dealer from Honduras because he happens to like the political party the guy's with. So this is a crack to get to the wider issue.

And I think it's worth focusing on that point you just made, that the reason that it's illegal to hit these two guys when they're clinging to the side of a sinking boat is because they pose no threat to the U.S.

or U.S. forces.
But the same can be said of that boat before it was hit in the first place.

Whatever you think about drugs and cocaine and the impact, that is not a military definition of a threat to U.S. persons and U.S.
forces.

I'm glad that you mentioned the

apparent irony of the president alleging that Venezuela is such a threat to the United States because of drug trafficking that he's ascribing to the president of Venezuela, that we are effectively in a state of war with Venezuela and that has led to these bizarre, I think

arguably, pretty clearly, extra-legal, illegal actions in the Caribbean against these boats.

That's all happening on one side of the ledger, while on the other side of the ledger, the president is pledging to pardon the former president of Honduras, who was convicted of mass-scale drug smuggling of cocaine into the United States.

I mean, in the hundreds of tons territory.

Because of that, because that sort of gives lie to the drug trafficking explanation for what's going on with us in Venezuela, does that give you any more clarity on why they are ratcheting up

these tensions with Venezuela to the point where it almost feels like it may be war any day now?

Look, I personally have had clarity for some time. With Donald Trump, this is about his personal power, and it's also about his 19th-century belief in spheres of influence.

You know, that the Western hemisphere is ours. And Petro and Venezuela are refusing to bend the knee to Trump.
That's why he's going after them.

It's not about drugs, it's about his power over the region. It's the same reason that he's selling out Ukraine to Russia in this belief of strongman rule and spheres of influence.

So, this is about much more than one illegal boat strike, and I hope people understand that.

Do you expect to be able to review video,

drone video of the strikes on the boat as you and your Republican colleagues pursue accountability here?

That is one of the many things that we are demanding. First, we want a full explanation about what happened, and we want to know the chain of command and the legality behind it.
And by the way,

for Secretary Hagseth to be the tough guy persona that he is, and then when this happened, he goes, oh, oh, oh, that was Admiral Bradley's call. No, this was Secretary Hagseth's call.

We want to know what the rules of engagement were. We want to know what the chain of command was and how this was laid out.

And yes, we want all the videos, all the background, everything that went into this decision, and everybody that was part of that chain of command to explain themselves.

On this, and again, I think on all of these boat strikes, where this is going, why it is being done. done, and what is the legal justification in their minds.

Congressman Adam Smith Smith of Washington, ranking Democrat on the House Armed Services Committee, sir, thanks very much for your time tonight. I truly appreciate you being here.

Thanks, Rochelle. I appreciate the chance.

We should note that former JAGS, former military lawyers, put out a statement today saying anyone who issues or follows such orders can and should be prosecuted for war crimes, murder, or both.

That explains some of, I think, what the anxiety is in the White House around this issue right now and around the ongoing position of Mr. Hagseth in the cabinet.
We'll be right back. Stay with us.

All right, that is going to do it for me tonight. This ad is brought to you by Viv Healthcare, the makers of Devato, Dalyutegravir Lamivudine.
If you're living with HIV, look ahead. Do chase a dream.

Do consider how you stay undetectable. Do learn about Devado.
Devato is a complete HIV treatment by prescription only.

For some people 12 and older, your doctor will determine if Devado is right for you. Do find out how many medicines are in your HIV pill.
Most HIV pills contain three or four.

Devato is as effective with just two medicines. No other complete HIV pill contains fewer medicines than Devato.
Do dream about tomorrow.

It is unknown if Devato is safe and effective if you have HIV and hepatitis B. If you have HEP B, don't stop Devato without talking to your doctor, as it may get worse or harder to treat.

Don't take Devato if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking Defetalide due to serious or life-threatening side effects.

If you have a rash or allergic reaction symptoms, stop Devato and get medical help right away. Other serious or life-threatening side effects include severe liver problems and lactic acid buildup.

If you're female or obese, you may be more at risk. Tell your doctor about your medicines or supplements, medical conditions, liver or kidney problems, pregnancy, breastfeeding, or planned pregnancy.

Do ask your doctor about fewer medicines. Visit Devato.com or call 1-877-844-8872 to learn more.