531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)

Thank you for listening to The Rest Is History. For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to series, and membership of our much-loved chat community, go to therestishistory.com and join the club.
That is therestishistory.com. This episode is brought to you by Mint Mobile.
Normal is a relative term. So it used to be considered perfectly normal to go down to the Westminster pit in London and to watch a monkey fighting a dog called Puss.
And people used to think it's actually perfectly reasonable and a normal way to behave. But of course, now people would consider that slightly alarming.
And high phone bills were also once considered normal. But luckily, we now have Mint Mobile.
And with Mint Mobile, you can leave your overpriced phone plan behind. They have premium plans that start at only $15 a month.
No matter what you consider normal, don't overpay for it. Tap now to shop data plans or visit mintmobile.com slash history.
That is mintmobile.com slash history. Upfront payment of $45 for three-month, five-gigabyte plan required, equivalent to $15 a month.
New customer offer for first three months only, and then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra.
See Mint ready for the next game. Talking to my doctor about a pill was a total game changer.
Don't use O-Tesla if you're allergic to it. Get medical help right away if you have trouble breathing or swallowing, swelling of the face, lips, tongue, throat, or arms.
Severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting, depression, suicidal thoughts, or weight loss can happen.

Tell your doctor if any of these occur and if you have a history of depression or suicidal thoughts.

Live in a moment.

Ask your doctor about Otesla.

Call 1-844-4OTESLA or visit Otesla.com for prescribing info, info about cost, and more.

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

This is a production of WGBH. 1-844-40-TESLA or visit otesla.com for prescribing info, info about cost, and more.
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible.
Financial geniuses. Monetary magicians.
These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit Progressive.com to see if you could save.
Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary, not available in all states or situations.
This night, for the first time, Polish regular soldiers fired on our territory. Since 5.45am, we have been returning their fire, and from now on, bombs will be met by bombs.
Whoever fights with poison gas will be fought with poison gas. Whoever departs from the rules of humane warfare can only expect that we shall do the same.
And I will continue this struggle against any enemy until the safety and rights of the Reich are secured. I am asking no more of any German than what I did myself for four years.
There will be no hardships that I do not share. From this moment on, my entire life belongs to my people.
I want nothing else now than to be the first soldier of the German Reich. I have now put on the same uniform that was once so dear, so sacred to me.
I will only take it off when victory is won, or else I will not live to see it. So Dominic, the unmistakable tones there of Adolf hitler and he was addressing the reichstag on the 1st of september 1939 and this was on the occasion of the declaration of war on poland which in effect i know that historians of china may disagree but let's run with this it's basically the outbreak of the second world war yeah and i gave him there you know doing his kind of rant people on youtube were able to see me gesticulating and all of that, frothing.
But actually, he was quite hesitant, really, wasn't he? Kind of occasionally stumbled over his words, seemed a bit nervous. Yes.
You know, he's been looking forward to this great moment. And now when it's come, I mean, is there kind of a slight measure of doubt? There is, I think, a lot of stress.
I think Hitler's not the devil. He's a human being.
He's made of flesh and blood. And at this crucial moment in his career, the moment that his life, his political career, has been building towards, the outbreak of the war in Europe that he has been predicting for so long, I think he's in a bit of an emotional state, actually.
He's in a bit of a mess because he doesn't know whether Britain and France are going to enter the war or not everything is in play and yeah he actually got the time wrong so he said 5.45 but it was actually 4.45 he stumbled there and said the wrong time and he was very very hesitant and with good reason right this is the moment that he throws the dice and we all know what the consequences for Europe will be but also the consequences for Hitler himself he looks there to his own death. I won't take this uniform off unless either victory is won or I am dead.
And he's already, I think, anticipating what he will do if things go wrong, i.e. the Wagnerian fate.
Yeah, dead at the funeral pyre of his capital. Exactly.
So this is the second episode of our trilogy about the Nazi war on Poland. And we ended last time, Tom, as you may remember, with Hitler and his generals drawing up their plan of attack on the 11th of April 1939.
The Poles have resisted their attempts to persuade them to give up Danzig and to turn themselves into a satellite state. So he's drawn up this plan for an attack on Poland.
and it's about the same time in April that Joachim von Ribbentrop,

very much not somebody admired by the rest of his history, it's fair to say, for all kinds of reasons, sartorial and ideological. Tailoring, I think, high on the list.
Tailoring very high on the list. But he suggests an idea that on paper seems completely unthinkable, which is why don't we do a deal with our ideological arch enemy Stalin and divide up Poland between us.
And we'll be following that story in today's episode. But the man you've been ventriloquizing there in an impression that may get you cancelled, it's kind of hard to tell, isn't it? I don't think so.
You don't think so? No. I think there was a lot of gusto there.
Well, I mean, I think if you're conveying a sense of Hitler's manic, demonic energy... You've got to go for it.
You've got to go for it, haven't you? I suppose you do. Yeah, I suppose you do.
I mean, it's important to feel what's motivating and driving him, or else you don't understand the war. Yeah, method acting.
Anyway, Hitler himself, he's 50 years old. He had celebrated his 50th birthday on the 20th of April 1939, so just nine days after the plan was drawn up for the destruction of Poland and to mark the big day I mean it is one of the most extraordinary birthday

parties in history Goebbels organized what Ian Kershaw Hitler's great biographer called

an astonishing extravaganza of the Fuhrer cult so they have a huge parade of limousines down

this new road this new avenue in Berlin called the east-west axis which has been planned as

Thank you. of the Fuhrer cult.
So they have a huge parade of limousines down this new road, this new avenue in Berlin called the East-West Axis, which has been planned as the main boulevard of the new capital of Germania. Berlin will be renamed in time Germania.
That's Hitler's plan. And this is what Hitler's been chatting about with Albert Speer.
Yeah, interminably. Yeah, drawing up little plans and big domes and things.
Exactly. They have huge torch-lit parades.
And at midnight, so midnight's the moment basically that Hitler's birthday begins, Speer presents him with a big model for the new triumphal arch that they are planning, which would be the biggest triumphal arch in the world. Yes, so much bigger than the Arc de Triomphe.
Exactly. And then the next day, there's a gigantic military parade, a five-hour military parade.
And Hitler stands, you know, he doesn't sit down. He stands and watches the whole thing.
And he's clearly delighted. And again, this is a reminder of how strange Hitler is.
Because I think for most dictators, this would be the apotheosis, the climax. You've turned 50.
You've conquered everything. You've achieved all the foreign policy goals of any German nationalist, pretty much.
This is the point to stop and slow down and enjoy it. And also, you're not well, are you? You're necking quantities of gun oil and stuff.
Yes, that's right. You're popping amphetamines.
Yeah, absolutely. But as Ian Kershaw points out, 50 is an age where a lot of people tend to take stock.
It's your classic kind of midlife crisis moment. So his midlife crisis is starting the Second World War.
I mean, some people go to the gym, some people buy a red motorbike,

other people start world conflicts. Well, that's Hitler, as Kershaw said.
He spends all the time thinking about his own approaching death. Death is on his mind all the time.
He has a sense of

loss of vigour, great anxiety about his health, and this tremendous sense of time running out.

It's really important to him to strike soon. Most of his high command are ultimately desperate to avoid war with the West because they think, why gamble everything? Why risk everything when we've achieved so much? You know, we're in power.
We enjoy being in power. We don't want to throw that away.
That's what that's how most authoritarians and dictators think not hitler he must have his war so eight days after his birthday he gives a landmark speech at the reichstag he renounces the non-aggression pact with poland so tom this is picking up your point from last time about what these pacts were the answer is nothing he also tears up the naval treaty with britain and for the first time he publicly lays out the grievances that he and

Ribbentrop have prepared. So that's Danzig, which we heard about last time, and the Polish corridor.

And then a month goes by, and he summons his commanders to the Reich Chancellery, and he gives

them the full Adolf Hitler bingo card. So we're being strangled economically, we need more living

space, our racial destiny destiny all of this kind

of stuff jews yeah the jews are behind everything of course he says poland is the target absolutely there will be war but here he goes beyond anything that he has said to his generals before for the first time he does not talk he explicitly rules out in fact a friendship or alliance with the other Anglo-Saxon Germanic world power, which is Britain or England, as he always calls it. He had always talked in the long run about some kind of deal with England.
You know, that basically was part of his vision. Germany rules Europe.
Exactly. And what had been Russia and Britain rules the rest of the world, basically.
Exactly. But now for the first time, he says explicitly, England is our enemy and the showdown with England is a matter of life and death.
So he's already beginning to recalibrate his attention a little bit from the east towards the west to see the west as an ideological arch enemy as well. And for the first time, we have a preview of what's going to happen in 1940.
He says, you know, I've been thinking about this a lot. We will have to take Holland and Belgium.
We'll take France. We can easily take France.
Of course, he is right. They do easily take France.
But to his generals, it's mad, isn't it? Yeah. Because on the Western border, Germany is outnumbered six to one by the French.
Yeah. And as we will see in next week's episode, as the war begins, there is a case that if the French had shown a little bit more gumption...

Had gone in, gone in hard. Yeah.
That would have been a very different outcome. But he says, we can take France.
We'll take the Atlantic seaboard and the Channel, and that will allow us to blockade England. We'll strangle England and bring them to their knees.
the only question in his mind is the timetable

I think at this point he's still thinking

we do Poland this year

and then maybe the West

Western Europe in a couple of years time. But so he doesn't think that invading Poland will bring Britain and France into the war because he despises them as little worms, their leaders.
And that will run through today's episode. His misjudgment, Hitler's judged his foreign policy coups very cleverly up to this point.
But I think from this point on, or rather from the final attack on Czechoslovakia that we did last time, from that point on, I think he completely misreads London. Do you think that's because he's actually met the British and French leaders in person? That's a good point, actually.
It's funny that he starts to get them wrong after he's met them. Yeah.
I think that's part of it. I think vanity is part of it.
He feels he was so affronted by Chamberlain and Chamberlain getting applause in Munich and so on. And he has such personal contempt for Chamberlain that he just can't take him seriously at all.
But also, I think by this point, Aler's off his head on gun oil but b but b he has completely drunk the furor kool-aid you know he he's he now thinks all this business about i've been chosen by providence yeah he's all into that you don't want a leader who thinks like that i mean that's mad anyway that spring and summer ribbentrop's diplomats lay the foundations they make all these more non-aggression pacts which as you will know tom are worthless with people like the danes the latvians the estonians we shall see of course what these non-aggression pacts are worth he does a deal with yugoslavia for its copper he does a deal with romania for its oil and its wheat so these are clever deals these are stocking up it's like playing a board And presumably the player that Hitler is, you know, on the other side of the game board is France, who had been a country that has traditional links with a lot of these countries, had tried to forge a kind of military alliance. But presumably in the wake of Munich is totally shot.
No credibility left at all. And I wonder also whether by this point, there is a sense across most of Europe and maybe across most of the world, that democracy itself is shot.
Yeah, I think so. That fascism is the face of the future.
And that, you know, the democracies with their shabby leaders in their kind of old fashioned clothes are just heading towards towards a scrap heap of history. Totally there is, Tom.
I think you're absolutely right. And I think that's been running through the 1930s within the democracies themselves, of course.
Lots of all these bright young men at Cambridge who are Stalinists, for example. Yeah, they want to be on the right side of history.
And Chamberlain and Deladier are not on the right side of history. They look stuffy.
They look boring.

They look dithery.

They look weak. And if you're, as you say, if you're a government in Eastern Europe looking for an ally, you say France, really?

I mean, they were great allies at Czechoslovakia.

And where are they now?

Whereas you think Hitler wins, you know, he judges things correctly.

He's decisive.

He's strong.

You know, that's the calculation that a lot of these people are making. But also the ideology behind it, the kind of the image of strength and power that maybe, you know, this is the future.
Yeah. Seductive.
It's glamorous. It seems modern.
Exactly right. Exactly.
Now, one person who has a little bit ambivalent is Mussolini. Mussolini doesn't want a war at all, but he's basically tricked into signing the Pact of Steel, a renewed, deepened military alliance.
I mean, honestly, I mean, if you're signing something called the Pact of Steel, you should know what you're getting yourself into. With a load of people who've got skull and crossbones on there.
Yeah, I mean, you know, there are clues there. But Ribbentrop says to him, listen, don't worry.
I mean, we're not thinking about war for five years, which i mean that's all right and muslin says oh well fine fair enough yeah we'll do it all that summer hitler does his usual trick that he'd done last time of basically trying to pretend that he hasn't got any military plans at all so he just goes on a tour of his childhood haunts in austria he goes to buy reut to listen to wagner i know you're a great devotee of wagner aren't you Tom? So again a disturbing similarity Another pointer of comparison

Yeah Austria he goes to Bayreuth to listen to Wagner I know you're a great devotee of Wagner aren't you Tom so again a disturbing similarity another pointer of comparison yeah exactly he's got Unity Mitford with him yeah and you love the Mitfords oh my god yeah it's all stacking up and he goes to this huge festival of German culture in Munich doesn't he which has become a kind of annual celebration of basically artworks who is it there's an artist who's who's called the pubic hair artist or something because he's always he's always sculpting kind of nudes german nudes and goebbels is all over this and he goes there and ogles all the women who are wearing kind of exotic german costumes and things it's all quite odd and of course he spends loads of time in the eagle's nest going for walks and like talking to spear about triumphal arches and watching terrible films and stuff meanwhile just as in the czech crisis goebbels's propaganda machine is kind of has cranked up pouring out all these grievances and what they will do just as in the sudeta land they'll take a genuine often a local grievance with a grain of truth and then massively amplify and exaggerate it into a colossal injustice. So this time, remember last time it was a guy who was basically a PE teacher called Conrad Henlein? Yeah.
And now there's a fellow called Albert Forster. He's the Nazi party chief in Danzig.
He came from the same town, interestingly, as Henry Kissinger, called Fürth in Franconia. Kissinger, of course, a refugee from Nazi Germany.
I mean, a huge part of Kissinger's makeup is that experience. Anyway, there's this huge stream of stories saying basically, you know, ethnic Germans in Poland are being beaten up, they're being attacked, all of this kind of thing.
Now, it is true that Poland has a much more nationalistic government than Czechoslovakia did but as Richard Evans says in his book on the Third Reich these stories are nevertheless massive exaggerations at best and complete inventions at worst and what Forster's goons will do is they will stage provocations to try and get a Polish counter reaction so they take a great offense at the fact that Poles have things like customs offices and post offices in Danzig. And they're always claiming that Polish postmen and customs inspectors are kind of beating up Germans and all of this kind of thing.
And the thing is that this has a very ready audience in Germany. We talked before, didn't we, in the Munich episodes about what ordinary Germans make of all this kind of thing.
Do they believe it? And I think a lot of ordinary Germans absolutely swallow this stuff. They've been primed to swallow this actually by decades, if not centuries, of prejudice against the Poles.
But I suppose Danzig is slightly different to, say, Austria or the Statenland, in that those were never part of Germany, whereas Danzig had been part of Germany. So so it'd be like for us i don't know bournemouth was an open city or something you'd think i suppose i mean danzig has danzig there had been tough periods where danzig had been polish so it had changed hands so maybe berwick yeah maybe berwick is a good example um danzig night the population is 90 german and most ordinary germans would absolutely say danzig ought to be part of germany it's bonkers that it's a free city they don't like the poles you know they are really the one nationality that most germans are united in regarding as backwards and dirty and all of that kind of thing and most people that they simply can't conceive that the western powers would fight for danzig after After all, you know, they didn't fight for the Sudetenland.
Why would they fight for what is obviously a German city? That's the way they think about it. So while all that's going on, Hitler is planning this diplomatic coup.
So if you're Hitler and you look at this, the one thing you fear most is that you would fight Britain and France in the West and Poland and the Soviet Union in the East. Now, a deal with the Soviet Union, obviously, it would be a massive U-turn because so much of Hitler's ideology is based on anti-Bolshevism.
But all this time, Ribbentrop has been saying to him, I mean, just think if we did have a deal with Stalin, it would solve so many problems. Is it really so outlandish? Isn't it a good idea? You know, shouldn't we think about it? And the good news for the Nazis is that from Stalin's point of view as well, the timing is absolutely perfect because Stalin has just had this, the great terror.
He has just killed

almost a million people in two years,

including almost all of the top brass

of the Red Army

and the people who run

all the munitions factories

and all of the technical experts

and all of these people.

He's killed all these people.

The Red Army is in an absolute mess,

total shambles.

He knows that one day

Hitler will attack him

because Hitler has been saying that

for two decades. He knows he's in no state to resist.
So he thinks, well, why not? I mean, why not buy ourselves a little bit more time? Because although he knows as well, of course, that Britain and France, you know, they've made informal kind of feelers about a deal with Stalin, but he knows that they despise him. And he also thinks they're weak, right? I think it's that that's more important.
Because obviously Hitler despises him too. I mean, everyone hates him.
Yeah. But it's the perceived weakness of Britain and France.
Surely. Because Stalin is a strong man.
And so he respects, even if he fears, other strong men. The British and French do send a military mission to talk to Stalin.
Have you seen this? And it was led by a man called Admiral Sir Reginald Aylmer Ranfurly Plunkett Ernal Earl Drax. It just seems disrespectful of Stalin not to respond to a...
A man with so many names. Yes.
A peace mission led by a man with so many names. Yes.
But this guy is quite a junior guy. And the French send, I think, an even more junior person.
And Stalin is like, what, these people are not serious. are not serious i mean they're never going to give me a proper deal like it would have to answer to their parliaments and all that this isn't going to go and that's another key thing isn't it yeah that the british and french governments do have parliaments and electorates to answer to exactly whereas neither hitler nor starlin have to worry about that exactly and obviously communists and fascists respectively will be appalled at the idea of cozying up to the enemy but who cares they'll just have to lump it yeah exactly that's the thing so stalin that spring started to send out signals to the germans he started to make speeches attacking the west he sacked his long-serving foreign minister maxim litvinov who is jewish isn't he he was jewish and hated the nazis and had been trying to work for years for better relations with the West.
And he replaces him with Vyacheslav Molotov, named after the hammer. Like Charles Martel.
Yeah, like Charles Martel. Molotov means hammer in Russian.
So Molotov is the ultimate kind of Stalin, ultra loyalist, and is not Jewish. And the Nazis take that as a very promising sign.
Ribbentrop loves this idea of a deal because, of course, A, it would stab Britain in the back, which, I mean, he hates Britain and he can't wait. What a coup that would be.
But also for Ribbentrop, Ribbentrop is the ultimate courtier. He wants to cement his position as Hitler's most effective and most loyal underling, especially vis-a-vis his great enemy, Göring.
So Ribbentrop is kind of working very hard on this all through the summer. And on the 5th of August, a Soviet diplomat says to him, you know, Stalin is actually quite interested in this.
This could happen. and then they get this great breakthrough on the night of the 19th of august so the first of all

the soviets agree after months of on-off talks, they agree a trade deal with the Nazis. They will sell them raw materials in return for German manufactured goods.
And then Hitler and Ribbentrop are at the Eagle's Nest, overlooking this amazing sort of panorama of the mountains on the German-Austrian border. And they get a call.
Stalin would like to open talks about a deal, a non-aggression pact. We know what they're worth, but more importantly, a deal to divide up Poland between them.
And he's inviting Ribbentrop to Moscow to conclude the deal. Now, Ribbentrop, as you can imagine, is absolutely thrilled by this.
Stalin says, I'd like you to come in a week on the 26th of August. And at that, Hitler's face falls a little bit when he hears the news.
He says, oh, that's very late. I really need the army to strike Poland, you know, latest 1st of September, because once it starts raining, that will turn the flat

fields of Western Poland into a quagmire, and that'll be very bad for our tanks. So really,

we would ideally like this deal earlier. And Hitler does something extraordinary.
He intervenes

personally. He sends a personal message to Stalin via the German embassy in Moscow.
Please,

can Ribbentrop come earlier to Moscow? This makes an incredible impression on Stalin. Stalin has always been treated by the West as a complete pariah, as a kind of madman, you know, an animal, loose in the world of civilized human beings.
And here is Hitler, who has demonized Stalin for so long, treating him as an equal, treating him with respect, asking very politely, please can my foreign minister come a week earlier? So a tribute to the efficacy of good manners. Yes, I guess so, Tom.
Because two days later, on the afternoon of the 21st of August, Stalin sends a telegram back and he says, oh, that would be lovely. Ribbentrop will be very welcome here in two days time on the 23rd of august and hitler inevitably is with albert speer at the eagle's nest when he hears architectural chit chat yeah balustrades or something uh when he gets the news and beer wrote an account of this he said hitler stared into space for a moment he flushed deeply Then he banged on the table so hard that the glasses rattled.
And he exclaimed in a voice breaking with excitement, I have them. I have them.
And then he called for champagne. And who do you think the them is? That's so, I was thinking about that.
I think it's Britain and France. I think at this point.
Or the Poles as well. Possibly the Poles as well as well of course but I think he is maddened with hatred now of the West, Hitler because he feels they cheated him of his war and then they gave the polls their guarantee.
You know he's a bitter, he's a bad man out of Hitler time. What can I say? Anyway, the news breaks.

They announced the news in Berlin just a couple of hours later,

so just before midnight.

So they don't keep it secret? No.

This is an interesting thing.

Until I'd read up on this, this was a revelation to me.

I'd always thought it was done kind of back channels.

No, that the reaction to the Nazi-Soviet pact

actually comes before the pact is formally signed.

So they announced the news. Ribbentrop would be flying to Moscow to conclude a deal with Stalin.
And now some old, you know, long-standing Nazis are appalled. And actually there are stories of people throwing down their badges outside party headquarters in Munich.
Munich, where the Nazi party began. People who would be very, very anti-Bolshevik and would have been for 20 years who were like what? The Bolsheviks are our greatest enemies and they're throwing their badges away but lots of Germans actually think oh brilliant, now we won't have a war with Russia and that's such a relief isn't that wonderful? Great news because of course they don't want war The communists of course of, they're more, I guess, kind of ideologically principled on this kind of thing, I guess.
I think bewildered is the, yeah, bewildered and confused. If you're a Stalinist, of course, you just say, well, Stalin is the great genius.
But there are definitely a lot of communists who are proper Marxists who are appalled by this and who are really troubled by it. But then lots of people make up excuses.
They say, well, Stalin had no choice. He was abandoned by the West, all of that kind of thing.
So the next day, the 22nd, Hitler convenes a big summit at the Berghof at the Eagle's Nest. He gets 50 senior officers and Ribbentrop.
Ribbentrop has packed his bags and is poised to fly. And Hitler says, this is a really important meeting.
I don't want anyone to take any notes. It is absolutely top secret.
But because it's so important, some of them write down their recollections afterwards. So we kind of know what Hitler said.
And even by his own standards, it's an extraordinary performance. He says, I'd always planned for a European war, and I'd always thought we'd fight West and then East.
But I've changed my mind. It's because of the economic situation situation because the wheels are about to come off our economy and he says to them the reason we're doing this now is because of me because i'm actually such an extraordinary person everything depends on me because my political talents there will never again in the future be a man with more authority than i have i mean imagine listening to this from your boss i could be eliminated at any time by a criminal or a lunatic.
No one knows how much longer I shall live. Therefore, we'll have to have the war now because I mean, I could be dead in a year.
Who knows? You'd be worried, I guess, if you were kind of human resources manager, if you heard the boss of your organisation talking like that. You would.
Now, this is when he comes out with his line about Britain and France being little worms. He says, I saw them in Munich.
They won't fight. Yeah.
So it's that personal contact again, isn't it? Yeah. I've looked into their eyes and I've seen that they're wimps.
Yeah, exactly. And then as for the deal with the Soviet Union, he says, yeah, I mean, it's an unusual departure for a fascist.
However, he says, I know that Stalin is a very sick man. I mean, talk about projection.
Stalin, he saysalin is a very sick man i mean talk about projection stalin he says is a very sick man after stalin's death we'll rip up the deal and we will break the soviet union and then there will begin the dawn of the german rule of the earth imagine listening to that with a straight face i mean obviously these guys do listen to a straight face now lunch, he outlines the plans for how they're going to fight the war in Poland. We'll talk about that next week in Monday's episode about the war in Poland itself.
So we'll just leave the speech at that point. Because this is the point when Ribbentrop leaves.
Ribbentrop excuses himself after lunch. He flies to Berlin.
Then he gets on Hitler's. He changes planes to Hitler's private Condor plane and he flies to East Prussia.
He spends the evening in East Prussia and he's nervously going over his notes for the meeting with Molotov the next day. And then on the early morning of the 23rd, Ribbentrop flies on to Moscow.
What an extraordinary moment this is. I mean, imagine what's going through his mind.
And he takes with him, by the way, Hitler's personal photographer, Heinrich Hoffman, who's a great source on this and we'll be talking about some of the comic activities with photographs later on. Cigars, isn't it? Cigars and photographs and drinking.
So Ribbentrop finally lands in Moscow and he is met by sort of grim-faced men with cars straight away. And he is driven directly to the Kremlin, the seat of communism on earth.
I mean, what an incredible moment this is. And he's escorted into this long sort of gilded marble hall with chandeliers and whatnot.
And waiting at the end, there's Molotov. But to his surprise, there's also another man, a small man with very familiar features.
Because he has a moustache. A gigantic moustache.
And it is, of course, Stalin. Now, Ribbentrop didn't know that Stalin was going to be there to meet him, so he's a bit taken aback.
And Ribbentrop comes out with his sort of polished, diplomatic, you know, we're lovely to be building a new relationship. We're looking forward to this moment for years.
And Stalin is very relaxed and jovial. And Stalin says, we've poured buckets of filth.
He uses a much more earthy word than filth over each other for years. He says, but there's no reason we can't bury the hatchet now.
Come on, let's bury the hatchet. And Ribbentrop kicks off with a very, very Hitler idea.
Let us stun the world with a non-aggression pact to last 100 years. Very Dr.
Evil. That's very Dr.
Evil. 100, yeah.
And Stalin kind of laughs. And he says, if we say this pact will last for 100 years, people will laugh at us for not being serious.
I suggest 10 years. 10 years is more reasonable.
There's the difference between Hitler and Stalin, right? But both of them must equally know it's not going to last. Of course they do.
Even 10 years. Of course they do.
I mean, it's all just shadow boxing. Absolutely it is.
So the pact is one thing, but of course the really important thing is the secret protocol to divide up Europe between them. And Ribbentrop says, here's Hitler's offer.
You can have Finland, you can have Estonia, you can have most of Latvia, you can have eastern Poland up to the River Vistula and the San, and you can have the Romanian region of Bessarabia, which is modern-day Moldova, which of course they do get. And Stalin says, that's all great, but I would also like the coast of Latvia.
And that's a bit of a stumbling block. And Ribbentrop says, I'll have to ring hitler i can't agree to that i'll have to ring hitler now hitler is at the eagle's nest and it's an extraordinary scene actually he's pacing up and down very nervously on the terrace he's very tense his adjutant was with him nicholas nicholas von beloff and he described he said it was a beautiful evening an aug evening in the mountains and the sun was setting.
Von Beloff said as we strolled up and down the eerie turquoise colored sky to the north turned first violet and then blood red. At first we thought there must be a serious fire behind the Untesberg the mountain but then the glow covered the whole northern sky in the manner of the northern lights i was very moved and i told hitler that it augured a bloody war oh that's nice that's moving moving to say and hitler replied that if it must be so then the sooner the better for the more time went by the bloodier it would be and at that point the phone rings and everybody's like oh my god the phone's ringing it's it's the news from moscow and hitler picks up the phone and he just listens in silence he doesn't say anything and then he puts the phone down and he still says nothing and then he says bring me a map so a map of the uh of the bullsates someone brings him this map and hitler stares at it and then half an hour later he's like okay and he rings back and he says yes agreed now back in moscow ribbentrop puts down the phone and he says it's on so they finalize the details at midnight stalin's servants bring in caviar and vodka and crimean sparkling wine so ribbentrop would have enjoyed that was a spark the sir of that's true i had maybe he could have a yeah yeah maybe maybe they did a little touch with your supplier yes and they light up a load of cigarettes and they start making toasts stalin incredibly makes this toast he says i know how much the german nation loves its furor i should like to drink to his health and he he leaves it.
He keeps that quiet in 1943. He does indeed.
Yes, he did. He didn't talk often about that toast.
Now the documents are ready. They've been finalised and they're prepared to sign.
At this point, Hoffman, the photographer, comes in and he sets up this huge tripod and his camera and everything. And Stalin says, hold on, hold on, on.
You can't take photos like this. We have to clear all the glasses away all the caviar because otherwise people will say they signed this pact when they were absolutely wasted and that's really bad publicity so they clear the stuff away and then Hoffman takes the photos and these are the photos that you see if you google it so you see Molotov and Ribbentrop very smart suited actually given the abuse we've given've given Ribbentrop about his suits.
They're signing and Stalin is in the background beaming, looking very jolly because he's tanked up on vodka and sparkling wine in his kind of beige tunic. Moustache bristling.
And then Ribbentrop rings Hitler again. Hitler inevitably has been watching a film with Goebbels, but he's not really been enjoying it because he's too nervous.

He wants to find out how it's going.

And Ribbentrop says, brilliant.

It has been a complete success.

We have everything we wanted.

And Hitler says, congratulations.

And then Hitler says, that will hit them like a bombshell.

Well, when we get bombshells in the rest of history,

we generally like to take a break. So I think that is what we will do.
This episode is brought to you by the Swedish clothing brand Asket. Now, Dominic, in our episode on tailoring and the history of the suit, one of the most salient things you get a real sense of while stood in a tailor's on Savile Row is that historically clothes were made with love and care so that they would last for a very long time indeed.
And I think it's a shame in today's age of fast fashion that it is hard to come by clothes that stand the test of time. But Tom, honestly, you don't have to go to the lengths of getting a bespoke suit tailor-made to own clothes that are made with that same sense of love and pride.
There are very few companies left that have that real focus on quality and longevity, but one of them is Asket. They work almost exclusively with organic and natural materials milled in Italy and Portugal and made in factories built on generations of craftsmanship.
Every product is worn for months by the two founders,

stress testing every stitch and seam before it's approved for production. And as a result,

they have just one single permanent collection. It's around 50 garments offered in three lengths

for every regular size that are meant to be around forever. And there are no discounts ever.

If you don't need anything, don't buy. Have a look at the collection yourself visit asket.com hello welcome back to the rest is history and dominic a bombshell has just exploded in the form of the molotov ribbentrop pact it has hitler and Stalin have divided up Eastern Europe between them.
And how does this all go down?

Well, Ribbentrop flies back to Berlin to a hero's reception, not surprisingly. Hitler hails him, says, you know, well done, mate.
Brilliant. You are second Bismarck.
And, of course, to Ribbentrop, that is music to his ears. Ribbentrop and Hitler now are absolutely convinced this has guaranteed them a free hand against Poland.
With the Soviet Union out, there is no way Britain and France will fight. They're convinced of this.
Now, I mentioned the photographer Heinrich Hoffman. He has come back to and he's been developing his photographs of the signing, which Stalin had said clear the glasses away.
And he goes into the Reich chancellery to show them to Hitler. Hitler is obsessed with Stalin.
He is absolutely obsessed. He's bombarded.
He's his only peer, isn't he? Yes, I think so. Hitler had said, there are only three great men in the world.
They are me, Stalin and Mussolini. And Mussolini is definitely third.
So Stalin is the other great man. And he's just fascinated with Stalin.
And he says to Hoffman, Hoffman does he order people does he order them or does he cloak his orders in the guise of wishes what about his health does he really smoke so much how does he shake hands what's his handshake like and then it's just a shame they never met isn't it oh they look on so well a lot of the Nazis we know this from Ted ted heath did you know this ted heath went to a nuremberg rally the future british prime minister when he was on a kind of gap year in um germany yeah yeah in 1938 yeah and he said he met him and goering and he said they had terrible handshakes by and large very limp drooping handshakes and i would imagine hitler had a poor handshake stalin i don't know i think he'd have a crunching handshake stalin's a bear hug kind of man isn't he yeah the thing that hitler is really fixated on have you seen this is stalin's earlobes yes because that's a sign of um jewishness isn't it he says are they ingrown and jewish or are they separate and aryan and the photographer hoffman says um they're separate and hitler apparently is delighted by that he says oh that's brilliant i'm so pleased i'm glad that stalin's got air in earlobes and then they get out the photographs and hitler's face falls to the floor what he says oh what a pity there's not a single one of these photographs we can use and hoffman who's you know considers himself quite a photographer is quite you know displeased by this yeah why and hitler says well in every single photograph stalin is smoking and he says the german people would take offense at this because hitler's very anti-smoking isn't he because you were saying in the previous episode how he spent his time you know wanting to ban them yeah exactly hitler wants to reduce nicotine cigarettes he's a health and safety nazi it's a health and safety nazi exactly. He's a nanny state Nazi.
What can I say? Hitler says, the signing of a pact is a solemn act, which one does not approach with a cigarette dangling from one's lips. Such a photograph smacks of levity.
See if you can paint out the cigarettes. And so the photographs that are released to the press by Hoffman have been doctored and Stalin's cigarettes have all been taken out.
It's so Orwellian, isn't it? First they released to the press by hoffman have the have been doctored and star and cigarettes will be taken out so it's so orwellian isn't it first they came for the cigarettes that's true yeah yeah then yes so starlin's reaction is it's fair to say it's a little bit less eccentric so starlin met his entourage the next day and his underlings had gone out and shot a load of duck he loved eating duck so they're eating all eating all this duck and Stalin's in brilliant form. He's never been happier.
And he says, he's a smarter man than Hitler, frankly. He says, of course it's all a game to see who can fool whom.
I know what Hitler's up to. He thinks he's outsmarted me, but it's actually me who has tricked him.
Although having said that- Well, is that true? I mean, you know, Hitler's the one who launches a surprise attack yeah but who laughed who's got the last laugh tom true i mean yeah anyway they're both bad men let's be frank about it now in the rest of the world the reaction of course is total shock among the communists uh in british newspapers and french newspapers and so on neville chamberlain is a broken man because of this joseph kenn the American ambassador, said he looks like a broken man. He said he could think of nothing further to say or do.
He felt that all his work had come to naught. I can't fly again because that was good only once.
In other words, Chamberlain recognises there's no possibility now for any more appeasement. The whole constellation has changed.
However, Britain will not change its approach. So this is one thing that Hitler really misjudged.
Hitler was convinced that this marked the end of the British and French guarantee to Poland, that there's no way they would fight. But actually, the 22nd of August, the day that the news of the signing of the pact reached London, the British cabinet reaffirmed its commitment to Poland.
And they decided to send the ambassador in Berlin, Neville Henderson, to the eagle's nest with a letter to Hitler to say, don't get this wrong. We are not going to change.
We are still completely committed to Poland. And how does this go down with Hitler? Poorly, I think it's fair to say.
So we talked about Henderson last time. He loves a carnation.
He's an old Etonian. He's got a gigantic moustache.
He's very elegant. Family linked to Alice in Wonderland.
Exactly. So Henderson turns up at the Eagle's Nest and Hitler just starts ranting and raving about it.
He can't believe that the British are doing this. Hitler says, you know, we've wanted to be friends with with you you clearly hate us we will fight you to the last man and henderson is very upset by this because he has spent his career trying to get in with the nazis he sees that as his task well he's a great man for thinking that there are moderates aren't there yes uh so there are extreme nazis and there are moderate nazis yeah and i think i think it's fair to say he's probably not right about that.
He's not right at all. He's a brilliant lesson in self-delusion.
And Henderson is really upset by Hitler's reaction. He basically storms out in the verge of tears or verge of a massive outburst of rage or something.
I don't think someone who went to Eton in the first half of the 20th century would blub. You don't think so? You don't think Roy Stewart would break down in such similar circumstances? Roy Stewart's a later Etonian.
Okay. But the early ones.
You don't think they would? No, I mean, that's the whole point of going to Eton is you get beaten if you show a kind of single trace of emotion. All right.
Well, Henderson, I think, is very emotional at this point because all his work has come to nothing. And when he goes out, do you know what Hitler does?

He literally slaps his thigh.

This was Hitler's great thing.

He loves slapping his thigh.

He does chortle.

He says, ha, ha, ha, ha, Chamberlain won't survive this discussion.

His cabinet will fall this evening. It does really feel like a kind of board game, doesn't it?

Kind of like diplomacy or something.

It does.

But also in which one person has now completely lost sight of reality

because there's no way Chamberlain's cabinet is going to fall apart. I mean, Hitler is completely deluded.
So I think at this point, Hitler has just completely lost the ability to read what's going on in Britain and France. I mean, he's all over the shop because the next couple of days go by and he gets all these reports from London.
The British are actually preparing for war. They've made coastal defence preparations.
They have requisitioned merchant ships. They put their air raid on standby.
In France, almost a million men have been called up to the colours. Hitler can't get his head around this.
What? Why are they sticking by the mad pledge to Poland? Why haven't they yielded to reality? And so he says, well, I'm going to have to change tactics, clearly. So on the Friday, which is the 25th of august he's moved back to berlin and he says get henderson back so henderson comes back to the reich chancellery and he says look i've changed my mind i will make britain a very generous offer if you let me solve this polish problem i promise that be it.
And I will guarantee the integrity of the British Empire.

And actually, I'll even lend you German forces to defend the British Empire,

as long as you let us have some of our pre-1914 colonists back.

So come on, that's a brilliant deal.

We can be friends.

And he says, do you know what?

It's such a good deal, actually.

I think you should take my private plane and go to London and offer it to Chamberlain personally. And then he says, I mean, this is shameless.
He says to Henderson, the thing is, I actually hate war. I'm not a warrior.
I'm an artist. When this Polish business is settled, I'll probably give up and just go back to art.
Because that's what really that's what i'm really all about so dominic you i mean this whole thing on the all these episodes tour de force magnificent you've covered yourself in glory but at this point you shame yourself no you've written in your notes he hitler is john lennon yeah just. Are you going to slap your thigh and chortle? Almost certainly.
But once the recording is finished, I think, just privately. Just imagine, Tom, imagine there's no religion.
You know, imagine there's no countries. It isn't hard to do.
That's what Hitler said afterwards. He just loves art.
Come on. So the irony is, of course while hitler is pontificating about art you know imagine this and that and the other his generals are preparing to launch the invasion of poland the very next morning the very next morning saturday the 26th of august everything is ready the final decision is delayed because hitler is still talking to Henderson about his love of watercolours.
But at last, that afternoon, he gives the order. We'll go in tomorrow, the 26th, 4.30 in the morning.
The British will be taken by surprise. It'll be a fait accompli.
They'll just have to suck it up. Brilliant.
Everything is ready. The wheels are put in motion.
The generals are ready. And then, unbelievably, at 7.30 that evening, they get a new order from Hitler.
It's off. It's cancelled.
What? What's happened? What's happened? Unbelievable twist. Well, Mussolini.
Mussolini, once again, has thrown a spanner in the works. Late that afternoon, he sent Hitler a message.
This war you're planning against, but actually, I don't fancy this war at all. Italy's not ready for a war.
We don't fancy this. Hitler can't believe it.
What? The pact of steel is for nothing? He says, Masuni has betrayed me. The Italians are behaving just like they did in 1914.
You can never rely on the Italians. So, I mean, it's all right for Hitler to rip up pacts and treaties, but when it's done to him, he doesn't like it at all.
Yeah. On the other hand, Tom, you could say the Italians had let Germany down in 1940.
So Hitler should perhaps have been forewarned. Anyway, it's too late to stop all the preparations.
The army are outraged. I mean, they do stop most of the preparations, units do go ahead so there's a there's an attack on a railway tunnel in the carpathians that is actually beaten back by the poles overnight the poles wanted to order general mobilization of their own but the british and the french say don't do it don't do it don't provoke hitler and as we will discover next time really i mean terrible for the This is terrible for the Poles because it means when the war does start, they are not properly ready.

So as a result of Mussolini dragging his feet, the timetable is sort of frozen.

Everybody is still in place.

But, you know, the war has been postponed.

And that gives Hitler one last chance to find a deal with Britain.

Now, at this point, he has given up on traditional diplomacy. You know, the stuff with Henderson isn't going to work, clearly.
Ribbentrop says, look, it's pointless. You know, they're not going to abandon Poland now.
But Göring is still hanging around in his white suit. He kind of likes the idea of a deal.
And he has this mate. Not least because it would kind of stiff Ribbentrop, exactly he has this mate who's a swedish industrialist called burger dalarus who goering uses often as a kind of go-between with london and hitler says well let's maybe use this bloke this dalarus so he sends this swedish guy off to london with an alliance offer an alliance offer for britain So he still hasn't given up on that old idea.
And again, this is quite reminiscent of the build up to the First World War. It is.
I was just thinking about that, about the Kaiser's various attempts at the last minute to have a deal with the British. And he says, look, Dalaris' offer is Germany gets Danzig, Germany gets the Polish Corridor, Germany gets its old colonies in Africa and stuff, but it will guarantee Poland's borders and it will do all this deal with the British Empire and it will defend the British Empire.
The difference this time is Hitler says, we'll have this deal first and then we'll only worry about the Polish business afterwards. It's so important to me to be friends with you in Britain.
Now, there's a lot of faffing around with this offer that we don't really need to go into because basically the underlying reality is that all the time Hitler is still making plans for the invasion. He has not given up on the invasion idea.
So after Dalarus has been sent off to London he gathers the Nazi top brass, the leaders of the SS, Himmler, Heydrich, Goebbels, all these bad guys and Hitler at this point is really strung out he's exhausted he's massively stressed his voice is cracking and he says okay we're going to do it on friday the 1st of september there'll be no more postponements i made up my mind you know enough faffing around this is going to happen and he says this is going to be brutal but for as long as i live there will never be any we would never surrender it's interesting that at this point even at this point before it's even started he's contemplating at least in part of his mind his own death and the possibility of defeat and actually goering says to him privately at one point he says listen we don't actually need to fight actually need to fight the British. We don't need to do this.
We don't need to gamble everything. Because Goering has been told, hasn't he, that the Luftwaffe lacks the capacity to bomb Britain.
And Goering has not, I think, been completely honest with Hitler about the Luftwaffe's capabilities for obvious reasons. And he says to Hitler, look, we don't need to do this.
You know, you don't need to prove anything. And Hitler says to him, all my life, I've always put my entire steak on the table, which is true.
He gambled and gambled and gambled and won and won and won until he didn't, until he didn't, exactly. So the evening of Monday the 28th, Henderson pitches up again.
He's drunk half a bottle of champagne to steady himself champagne what is it with sparkling wine in these people before meeting hitler and he says look we've got the latest stuff from from this swedish guy we're not going to do a deal with you but while this danzig thing is dragging on fine we can talk about danzig but there is no way that you can invade because if you do that we will fight you and Hitler says okay I'll think about it so a day goes by then on the evening of Tuesday the 29th Henderson comes back for his answer and Berlin now is in darkness the government in Berlin has ordered a trial blackout there are hundreds of people waiting outside the Reich Chancellery because they know that this is kind of the last chance for peace and And Hitler, I mean, I was going to say unbelievably, but of course, it's perfectly credible. He decides to try the same trick that he had done in Bad Goudersburg with Chamberlain.
He decides to just completely change the rules of the game and raise the stakes. And so instead of being Mr.
Nice, he starts ranting and raving. Oh, I'm sick of you, British.
You don't care about Germans.

You don't care if we're being slaughtered.

And he says, oh, it's all your, you've encircled Germany.

You've tricked us.

You've betrayed us, all of this kind of thing.

Henderson, for the first time probably in his diplomatic career,

really, with Hitler, completely loses his temper.

And he says, I won't listen to this language from you or from anybody.

How dare you insult the British government?

If you want a war, says Henderson, then you will have it. And Hitler says, well, fine.
I mean, the Poles should come send someone tomorrow to give me everything that I want. And if they don't, I'll send in my army.
I'm not waiting any longer. Now, actually, amazingly, Henderson at this point, he walks out and he's steaming with rage.
But he's still, because he's an appeaser and has always been an appeaser, he's still you know part of him still wants a deal and so he actually says to london maybe we should get the polls to negotiate yeah maybe we shouldn't give up completely and chamberlain back in london says no way you know we're not going to be bullied again by hitler chamberlain by this point has i think definitely run out of patience with the policy of appeasement he says we are not not going to yield on this point. There is nothing more to discuss.
So the stage really is set now. The next day, Wednesday the 30th, the Poles begin to mobilise.
They should have done it earlier. They have delayed the request of the British and the French to avoid provoking the Germans.
That will cost them very dear, I'm sorry to say. Can I just ask you, they mobilise in the expectation that Britain and France will declare war on Germany, but more than that, that Britain and France will attack Germany in the West, and that this would therefore give the Poles a fighting chance to survive.
Do you think, if they'd known that the British and French weren't actually going to do anything, they were just going to kind of sit there might they have negotiated in that eventuality? No I don't think so. They'd still have fought.
I think they would probably still have fought. I think they can't conceive that the British and the French won't intervene.
Right okay so it's a normal question. Yeah but I think the British and the French have sent slightly mixed signals.
They've sent a military mission. They've sent some sort of pretty pitiful supplies.
The British and the French have sent slightly mixed signals they've sent a military mission they've sent some some sort of pretty pitiful supplies the British and the French have been saying to them you know it'll be a long war uh they've been sort of hinting that they their intervention will not exactly be as um game-changing as the Poles might like but Polish national pride Polish public opinion they make it will make it very very difficult for any kind of compromise, I would say. So where are we? Thursday, the 31st of August 1939.
First thing that morning, Hitler says to his generals, the invasion will start tomorrow. He signs the attack order just after midday and then he confirms it an hour later.
That afternoon, early that afternoon, Riventrop arrives at the Reich Chancellery and he says look no give from britain you know it's looking pretty bleak on the british front and hitler says well i've already given the order de zacker roller things are rolling and and goebbels writes in his diary that afternoon it looks as if the die is finally cast and largely that will appeal to you and late. And late that afternoon, a very ominous sign,

they cut the telephone lines to and from the Polish embassy in Berlin.

And at 11 o'clock that evening, the 31st,

you have the first reports of incidents on the Polish frontier.

The most famous one is at a radio station at a place called Glewitz,

now Glewitz, in Upper Silesia. So this was basically a radio station generally used for kind of weather forecasting.
And there were reports that Polish troops have stormed a German position, that they executed the staff and they broadcast Polish nationalist slogans. Actually, what happened was the attack was organised by the SS.
It was planned directly by reinhard heidrich both the attackers and the defenders were ss men and they were actually firing blanks and when they left they left three bodies behind them two of these these are called canned goods exactly this is the sort of um the jargon two of these guys were concentration camp inmates. They had been killed with lethal injections and dressed in Polish uniforms.
And the third man was a Pole, a Pole who was a German citizen. He was a local farmer, and his name was Franciszek Honeok.
And he had been arrested the day before. He was well known for being a very patriotic Pole.

And he was arrested, thrown into prison, and then he was taken out of prison and put to sleep with

an injection. And then he was taken asleep to the radio station.
And then he was shot dead,

and his body was dumped there. And he is the first of the six million Poles who will be killed

by the Nazis in the next six years. So we'll get on to the fate of Poland in Monday's episode.
But just to tie up this bit of the story, the war proper began at 4.45 the next morning, Friday the 1st of September, when an elderly German battleship called the Schleswig-Holstein opened fire on the Polish military depot on the Westerplatte, which is a peninsula that commands the entrance to Danzig's harbour. And the same time that happened, 60 German divisions, about one and a half million men, spearheaded by tank divisions, began to cross the border, flood across the border from Germany into Poland.
And by the afternoon of that day, Friday, you have the first reports of bombings, of Stuka attacks coming in from Western Poland, and the Polish army is already beginning to fall back from the border. Hitler addressed the Reichstag that morning at 10 o'clock.
As you described, Tom, he was wearing his Wehrmacht uniform, and he never takes it off. I mean, presumably he takes it off to sleep.
To the shower. Yeah, but he never dresses again in civilian clothes.
And you did that performance with gusto because that's what we associate with Hitler. But actually, as we said, he was very nervous.
He stumbled over his words. He's very downbeat.
He gets the time wrong. And even that line, looking forward to his own death death it's a hint i think at the doubts that must that must have been there if only subconsciously it was a very gloomy day in berlin there was no public enthusiasm at all the american journalist william shirer described the quote astonishment depression on the faces of the people no excitementrahs, no cheering, no throwing of flowers, no war fever, no war hysteria.
Of course, they're all still waiting to find out what Britain and France will do. And Hitler did make one last attempt, another attempt through this Swedish guy, Dalaris.
When Dalaris went to meet him at the Reich Chancellery, in Kershaw describes the scene in his biography hitler probably as a result of stress and tiredness not not the gun oil not the gun oil his his breath was so repellent the odor from his mouth was so strong that dalarus was tempted to move back a step or two so you know hitler's hygiene has kind of collapsed yeah yeah um and hitler says you know tell the british give this is their last chance to avoid a fight with me i'll fight them for 10 years if i need to which is not a very yeah it's not very emollient not very emollient and obviously doesn't work the next day the second britain and france by now had ordered full mobilization they begin evac from the cities. Chamberlain is in talks about drawing up a war cabinet, bringing Winston Churchill back as First Lord of the Admiralty.
And that evening is the evening of the very famous debate. Chamberlain gives, as he so often does, a very ill-judged speech in which he says, if the Germans pull back from Poland, maybe we could still talk to them.
What a mad thing to say. And this is the moment at which famously, as the Labour leader, Arthur Greenwood stands up to reply.
One of Churchill's sort of allies called Leo Amory shouts, speak for England, Arthur. And this is a great shock to Chamberlain.
He's the sense that he's lost touch with the public, with many of his own party, and indeed with his own cabinet, because afterwards his cabinet say to him, look, enough, you've got to give an ultimatum. And Henderson goes to give the ultimatum first thing the next morning.
So it's Sunday the 3rd of September, nine o'clock in the morning. Henderson goes to the foreign ministry in Berlin.
Ribbentrop. Do you remember when we did the series on the First World War? All those scenes of the ambassadors crying and foreign ministers shaking hands.
Yeah. None of that now.
You know, it's really kind of moving, actually. Really moving.
Well, Ribbentrop is cut from a very different cloth. He will not even meet Henderson.
He refuses even to see him. And Henderson gets interned, doesn't he? He does indeed, yes.
When Paul gets declared. So Henderson has to make do with the interpreter, Paul Schmidt.
So he gives him the ultimatum. As surely everybody listening to this podcast will know, the ultimatum expired at 11 o'clock.
The Germans didn't reply. And a few minutes later, Chamberlain made that very famously gloomy speech.
No such undertaking has been received. And consequently, this country is at war with Germany, announcing the beginning of the Second World War for Britain and for France.
But let's end with the interpreter, Paul Schmidt. He said, translated the British government's ultimatum.
When I finished, there was complete silence.

Hitler sat immobile, gazing before him. He was not at a loss, as was afterwards stated,

nor did he rage, as others allege. He sat completely silent and unmoving.

After an interval which seemed an age, he turned to Ribbentrop, who had remained standing by the

Thank you. After an interval which seemed an age, he turned to Ribbentrop, who had remained standing by the window.

And Hitler asked, what now?

What now? What now indeed?

We will be back on Monday to find out what happened next. We'll be doing the story of Poland's heroic resistance, doomed resistance, and the tragedy of its fall and its fate.

And if you're a member of the Restless History Club, you can hear that episode right now.

Thank you. resistance, doomed resistance, and the tragedy of its fall and its fate.
And if you're a member of the Restless History Club, you can hear that episode right now. But for now, thank you, Dominic.

Brilliant stuff. Goodbye.

Goodbye.