Jeremy Miner’s Secret to Selling Without Chasing or Convincing | #Sales - Ep. 50

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Speaker 1 This is the Russell Brunson Show.

Speaker 1 What's up, everybody? It's Russell. Welcome back to my show.
And I'm here today.

Speaker 1 We're not in Phoenix. Where are we at? We are in North Scottsdale, Arizona.
There's a difference between North Scottsdale and like Scottsdale. Yeah.
What's the difference? I don't even know.

Speaker 1 Too much to explain podcast, man. It's funny because, like,

Speaker 1 in my mind, there's Arizona, and it's like, there's all these places, but I fly one place here, and I never know which city I'm in. And it's all,

Speaker 1 I think there's like five or six million people. It's like scattered.

Speaker 1 You know, there's not like huge skyscrapers, but it like takes hours to go anywhere to see everything just it's all over the place Well, that's where we're at right now and I'm here with Jeremy Miner which I'm excited for we just finished a podcast a few minutes ago I was on his podcast and now he's gonna be here on mine and I'm excited because I probably have different questions for you than most people have obviously we have a very similar religious background

Speaker 1 But we look at things differently.

Speaker 1 You're very much like And hopefully you'll tell us kind of your background, but like you are hardcore into like the history of religions and things like that i think that was part of your schooling yeah so i want i'd love you tell some of the background of that and then at the end of it explain your company name seventh level because i did not know this was tied to anything until i heard you say something on a random podcast once and it blew my mind like why is it a level like and it's very fascinating so yeah yeah okay so i went to school so i went to school for behavioral science was going to become a psychologist

Speaker 1 and my minor was in new testament christianity so uh going to school at uvu so studied new testament christianity which was fascinated about i was always fascinated about the mind and like, why do people do the things they do?

Speaker 1 Like, why do they have these beliefs, right? I'm always very, very, I always believe there's truth in everything, right? There's also some things that might not be true.

Speaker 1 There's some things that are true. And I don't think we all know until after this life.
But that's just my opinion.

Speaker 1 And so

Speaker 1 in pretty much... every religion.
So I'm talking about like ancient Christianity before like the rise of Roman Catholicism, like in the probably the fourth century.

Speaker 1 I'm talking about Islam the first few hundred years. I'm talking about Hinduism, Buddhism, like not present day, but like ancient.

Speaker 1 I'm talking about even religions all the way back to, you know, the first recorded ones, maybe in Mesopotamia,

Speaker 1 all had a few core beliefs that pretty much every religion believes in today. And I find that fascinating.
They've lasted like thousands of years.

Speaker 1 Now, one of those beliefs was that there was different levels of the afterlife or heaven or whatever you want to call it. There wasn't just like two places, like a heaven or a hell, right?

Speaker 1 Like it's kind of taught today. But there was this belief,

Speaker 1 really in every religion, that there were seven levels of heaven. But every religion believes seven was the number? This was like, you're talking about ancient Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism.

Speaker 1 You're talking about religions that I can't even pronounce back in Mesopotamia. You're talking about Islam, like ancient, like core, not like present day.
Because some of those have changed.

Speaker 1 There's still some that still believe in that. But there's seven levels of the afterlife, okay?

Speaker 1 And in order for you to inherit where God, God dwelt at the like the seventh level. Now, seven, and typically in most

Speaker 1 ancient civilizations, that number represents something that's divine. Does that make sense? So it represents perfection or divinity in ancient times.
I'm not sure if it represents that now.

Speaker 1 It just depends on who you read. But so that is where God dwelt on this seventh level of heaven.

Speaker 1 And in order for you to obtain what he has, you had to become, you had to follow him, you had to be good, you had to

Speaker 1 believe in Christ, all these type of things. In other religions,

Speaker 1 you kind of like, I don't describe it in a way,

Speaker 1 like perfection was at the seventh level. So I'm like, okay, what do I name?

Speaker 1 Because in my mind, cis training, it's not just, I don't do this to help people sell more. I do it to help people communicate better, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1 Because I believe that the world's problems really all stem from a lack of communication. You know, like if you think about like any war that's fought, why was it fought? Lack of communication.
Right.

Speaker 1 So anything stems back to that. So in my mind, I'm like, communication has to be perfected.
So that's where I came up with seventh level.

Speaker 1 Seventh level is perfection, you know, in your communication skills. That's where I came up with that.
Interesting. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And hardly anybody ever asked me that. Yeah.
A few people have asked me that. Not very many.
They just assume it's like, oh, it must be like the seventh level of the

Speaker 1 level

Speaker 1 tool or something.

Speaker 1 Yeah. So fascinating.

Speaker 1 A competitor might come out with the eighth level. I don't know.
You know, we're the eighth level. There is no eighth level.
There is no eighth level. There's only seventh.
I'm just talking about it.

Speaker 1 Do you know when in history, the faith started shifting away from levels into what most people believe nowadays?

Speaker 1 It just depends.

Speaker 1 You probably know quite a bit about ancient Christianity,

Speaker 1 the doctrine of the Trinity, where it stemmed from, and what ancient, what earliest Christians believed from, let's say, 33 AD to maybe 325 AD kind of shifted, prayers for the dead, like just different things kind of shifted as people had just different beliefs and different agendas.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, we could really go into like the writings of Plato inspired the Christian metaphysical godhead, but you know, you guys would get bored. Is this the marketing and sales podcast?

Speaker 1 I just geek out on this. This is what I do in my spare time.
I study like world religions and I study World War II history. Just random.
If you know me,

Speaker 1 I'd know everything about

Speaker 1 those topics. Pretty much, yeah.

Speaker 1 If you ask me anything outside of that, I'm like, I know nothing.

Speaker 1 I can't change the oil in my car. So cool.
Does your company know, like, did most people inside your company, you guys talk about that as a thing?

Speaker 1 Or is it more just like you create a company and that's kind of what it is?

Speaker 1 Most of them know. Yeah, most of them know.
I mean, our mission is to change the way sales is perceived in society. One salesperson, one person, one company at a time.
I believe everybody's in sales.

Speaker 1 It doesn't matter what you do. You're selling something.

Speaker 1 If you're a school teacher that, you know, trying to convince your kids to do their homework, you're trying to persuade influence, you're trying to move them.

Speaker 1 If you're an attorney trying to convince a judge, your client's in it, you're trying to persuade influence, convince. If you're a politician trying to get people to to vote for you,

Speaker 1 everything is in sales. If you're a parent trying to get your kids to behave, go to bed at night.
Persuading, influencing, like everything is sales.

Speaker 1 And until we all start to understand that our communication skills can literally shape our destiny,

Speaker 1 it's hard to get where we want to go. You know, it just, it just is.
Like if you were on a webinar and you didn't know 70, you know, 80% of what you know, you know, where would your company be now?

Speaker 1 How many lives would you not have impacted? But it's because of your commitment to mastery of like learning those skills to help people that has helped you get to where you're at.

Speaker 1 And by doing that, it helps other people get where they want. Yeah.
Yeah. So cool.

Speaker 1 So in school, you study psychology. That we said psychology.

Speaker 1 Mainly neuro. I specialize in neuropsychology, just like the study of how the brain works in conjunction with your nervous system.
Oh, okay. Yeah.
Weird stuff.

Speaker 1 How much of that then translates into what you're doing today at teaching sales? Like, is it... Well, it's everything.
You've heard of like fight or flat mode.

Speaker 1 Well, fight or flight mode is a reaction by your nervous system right so i had to learn this a hard way so when i got into sales i was going in my senior year at uvu and you know i get this job selling home security system stored because i got married and had my first daughter on the way cami is back there somewhere yes long time ago and uh i just viewed sales differently like i viewed it differently because most we get back in the van at night and most sales be like oh this neighborhood sucks like people are so mean like they're all broke but i never viewed it that way.

Speaker 1 Like, if somebody, like, in the first couple of months I was trying to figure it out, if somebody slammed the door in my face, I'm like, oh, what did I say? Or

Speaker 1 what did I not ask that triggered that reaction in their nervous system? Like, this is weird stuff. I'm like, what did I do there that triggered them to react that way?

Speaker 1 Like, I triggered something in them. I triggered sales resistance.
Instead of complaining, I'm like going through like, oh, I think, you know, because I'm talking too fast. I'm making them nervous.

Speaker 1 I need to slow down my tone. Oh, this person's a little bit older.
I need to soften my tone. You know, so like gradually, I took what I was learning in school, which doesn't really,

Speaker 1 it's not like they're direct correlation. Direct.
They're not like, hey, you know, when you say this in this tone, it's going to be. But I studied patterns, right? Principles and patterns.

Speaker 1 And I took those patterns from like Sigmund Freud. People do who they believe they are.
I'm like, okay, people do who they believe they are. So these people believe they're this.

Speaker 1 How do I change their identity into this? And so that's where NEPQ was developed. It took a while, you know, and it's still being developed.
Yeah. That's the fascinating thing.
Do you study,

Speaker 1 so I love Freud, but I studied Bernays very heavily, who was Freud's nephew who kind of started, you know, propaganda, PR, everything. You study...

Speaker 1 I haven't Freud a lot, but we studied a lot of Milton Erickson because I was going to be a child psychologist. So you're talking about Milton Erickson.

Speaker 1 Milton Erickson patterns and principles and different things. Yeah.
You?

Speaker 1 I was just Bernays because he's...

Speaker 1 He, because he took Freud, he was Freud's nephew, who took all of Freud's information and then used it to move masses to get people to change their beliefs on the war and to buy cigarettes and all sorts of stuff and so that's the lens i looked at

Speaker 1 oh that was uh world war one right world war one where he got started like after world war one because all men smoked but no women smoked so they started the commercials where like women you know women that are independent and women that work like smoke and it became his torch of freedom and like all these yeah he started to shift the identity of like oh you know if i'm a woman right you thought like i'm a stay-at-home mom i'm only i cannot smoke i'm not like these guys to like i'm independent now i need to show them i'm boss i need to smoke so he's shifting identities.

Speaker 1 And if you follow, if you guys haven't read the book Propaganda, it's amazing. But he goes through all these different businesses, like breakfast, for example.

Speaker 1 Like breakfast was not a thing that people ever had back then. And then they people saw what he did with cigarettes and they hired him to like, we need people eating breakfast.

Speaker 1 And so he's like, well, how do I do this? The first thing he's like, well, if I just tell them to eat breakfast, no one's going to believe me.

Speaker 1 So he's like, he went and found all these doctors and scientists to say like, oh, you need to have breakfast. Breakfast is the most important meal.

Speaker 1 Then took that, built a propaganda campaign, blew it up, and now we eat breakfast.

Speaker 1 And it was all because of this one dude who was nephew of freud yeah um and it was fascinating is the book propaganda it got a bad it's like people don't like the word propaganda so then he changed the phrasing he's like propaganda and charged pr yeah it's like the neutral language the cool story it's like the it's like the you know the uh the irs used to not be called the irs you know it used to be called the internal tax service but that sounds kind of bad so but revenue sounds better internal revenue service like see the neutral languaging it's the identities so it's fascinating because you know identity framing that we that we talk about, like it can be used for good or evil.

Speaker 1 Like you talk about World War II, like the Nazis, how Goebbels used it to like literally change the identity of a nation to hate certain people where before it was maybe a little bit of the population, but how do they get, you know, because how do they get 50 plus percent to change their identity into that?

Speaker 1 So when you learn this type of stuff, you really have to take great care of it because you can use it for a while. With great power becomes great responsibility.
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 Yeah. All right, I want to transition back to you.
So I didn't know this when we first met. I obviously saw you initially online, saw your funnels, like, because that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 Like, oh, this funnel sucks. This guy needs to,

Speaker 1 he's like the analyzer of funnels. You know, he's doing my funny.
Oh, I don't want to show people the funnel. Like, he's going to make fun of it.
He's going to say, you know.

Speaker 1 But prior to that, you told me later, like, I didn't realize this, but a lot of people get in the sales business because they think there's good money in it.

Speaker 1 You were actually one of the best salespeople ever. Like, do you want to brag about yourself? That's my grandmother told me.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 But legitimately, like, you showed me some of the stats and the numbers. Like, I want to make sure my people understand like that you weren't just some guy.
I was ranked. You wanted to teach selling.

Speaker 1 Like, direct selling association ranks salespeople. You have to prove it.
So it's, you know, I always say, like.

Speaker 1 Everybody's numbers typically go down if the IRS knows. It's interesting, you know, compared to the IRS doesn't know.
But you have to prove it.

Speaker 1 You have to send in, like, if you're a W-2 salesperson or a 1099, you have to send in statements to show you, and they actually call and confirm with the company that you work for.

Speaker 1 So I was ranked number 45, I think it's 45 in the world. It's a long time ago.
45 in the world from like 2010 to 2018 based on what I was making per year as a salesperson.

Speaker 1 This is out of like 180 some million salespeople in any industry selling anything.

Speaker 1 So, but I was always like, okay, these 44 people above me, there's still stuff I have to learn. That's what was always drove me, you know? And some of it is your industry you're in.

Speaker 1 Like there was like the industries I in, like eventually like I capped out everything. And that's why I would leave because I'm like, like, even if I sell three times more, I can't, I can't make more.

Speaker 1 Like I'm capped. There's nothing I can do.
Yeah. So yeah, it was, it was a, it was a fun run, but it taught me a lot.
Like I've sold in four different industries, two business, two consumer, two B2B.

Speaker 1 And so even after like, I had an 18-year sales career before I retired, even when I retired and then like a year later, I'm like, okay, I'm going to start the sales training company.

Speaker 1 I still was like, I don't know if I can do this.

Speaker 1 You know, I was at the top of my game for all these other industries, but like this, because I didn't even label it any PQ then.

Speaker 1 I was just like had all these different types of questions that I had and it was like you know I didn't have really labeled it I knew what it was but I'm like how do I duplicate in this in every industry you know so there's always that question when you do something there's always that little doubt and I think that is good to have a little bit of a doubt because I think doubt in my mind always drives change because I'm always like I'm looking for the person behind me like over the shoulder like I like I really love Tom Brady's story have you watched his documentary no it is it'll change your life but he always talks about like he's he was always looking for the next guy up.

Speaker 1 He was like, I might have a bad practice or a bad week or a bad game. I'm looking at the guy behind me that's about to take my job.

Speaker 1 And that drove him, like literally drove him to keep learning more than everybody else. And that's why he stayed at the top.
And a lot of people get complacent.

Speaker 1 And you see that in business too. You see a lot of business owners that get complacent eventually and then eventually...

Speaker 1 They get left behind. But it's the ones that like are always like have that little doubt, a little seed, like, you know, like, somebody's coming for me.
So I've always got to keep getting better.

Speaker 1 I think that's the key. I think it's good to have that.
So when you did transition to the sales training coaching, you started doing everything like that.

Speaker 1 I think one of the really smart things you did, and I talk about this people all the time, is like when you're teaching a thing, you don't want to look like everything else.

Speaker 1 And again, I don't know the story behind this, but you definitely created something. You created a framework.
You named it. It became yours.
It was like, you know, this thing that was different.

Speaker 1 So like... In my feed, I follow all the people.

Speaker 1 New model sign. Yeah, it pops out, and I was like, what is NEPQ? I'm like, what is it? Like, what is it? Like, it was a unique framework with a different name and everything.

Speaker 1 And I love, like, how did you develop that? Why did you develop it? Like, what was the,

Speaker 1 I sit down and I was like, okay, I have to have, like, a, uh, a framework or methodology, you know? And this is, I think this is even before, this is, like, 2018.

Speaker 1 I don't even know when we, dude, the first year and a half was like a blur. Like, we made some money and we spent more money.
Like, it's just like, what happened?

Speaker 1 You know, it took us like a year and a half to figure it out. But sitting down, I'm like, okay, what am I going to name this? Okay, so went to school for neuropsychology, gonna become a psychologist.

Speaker 1 So neuro, that's where neuro comes comes from. Neuro stands for brain, how it works in conjunction with the nervous system.
So there's the N. E, emotional.

Speaker 1 So like I always say, and I love Tony, and I love to just go to the events because like I'm all geeking out. I'm like, everybody's like crying, laughing and jumping.

Speaker 1 I'm like, man, that was a really good D-frame there. Did you see how he lowered his tone there? Like, did you see like the

Speaker 1 paintings just changed? And then that song came on.

Speaker 1 Everybody cried. Freaking brilliant.
Like, that's how I'm going. Like, I'm looking, I'm like, I'm seeing the frames and the body language and stuff.
You and I geek out on this. Yeah, but

Speaker 1 so anyway, so the E stands for emotional.

Speaker 1 So I always say, like, in order to master influence at the highest level, you have to master how to emotionally connect with that other human being or audience, whoever it is, where they feel that you're going there first.

Speaker 1 They feel like you understand them, their needs, their desires, their fears, their wants.

Speaker 1 without buying into their story. Now, there's a key line here because you can understand somebody and judge them.
But if you judge somebody and they feel that, it's unlikely they'll buy.

Speaker 1 Most people, if they feel like you're judging it. So you have to feel like they have to feel like you understand them and you're concerned about the consequences if they don't change.

Speaker 1 Not, oh, you don't have the money. Oh, I'm so sorry.
Like, that doesn't help them. That would be me buying into their story.

Speaker 1 I'm, I have to get them to feel that I'm concerned if this stays the same for them. the consequences.
And a lot of that is to do with your physiology, your tonality, shifting.

Speaker 1 That's why Tony doesn't talk in one monotone the entire time, because nobody would know who Tony was if you talked like that. And so that's where the E stands for, emotional.

Speaker 1 It's that emotional connection. Okay.

Speaker 1 The P stands for persuasion, and I like to say self-persuasion. So how do I frame the offer? Because I was talking to, I don't know if you saw me, I was with Dan Henry at your event.
This is like,

Speaker 1 have you had Dan on your show? Yeah. I love Dan.
He's like one of my favorites. I didn't hardly know him.

Speaker 1 We're like brothers, man. Like, this is just fun.
We're like geeking out on deframing.

Speaker 1 Who are these weirdos? But we're talking about like, you know, everybody's solution looks the same.

Speaker 1 It's like everybody, like, everybody thinks, like, oh, well, if I just sell this, like, oh, that's going to be all the, you know, we have this big Facebook group called Sales Revolution.

Speaker 1 There's probably 180,000 salespeople in there. And, you know, every day there's new testimonies.
Boom, boom, boom, boom.

Speaker 1 And people, the first question they ask, if they're not a client, it's like, oh, well, what industry are you in?

Speaker 1 Because they'll be like, you know, my sales have tripled, or I used to make this and now I make this, or whatever it is.

Speaker 1 If they're a salesperson, the first question must be, oh, what industry are you in? Now, why are they asking that? Because their belief system is it must be the industry, it's not me.

Speaker 1 Yeah, so if I go to that industry, maybe it'll be

Speaker 1 and then they go to that industry and they're like, oh, there's other problems here. This market's saturated too.

Speaker 1 Oh my gosh, like, you know, the amount of times I've heard salespeople say, oh, you don't understand our market saturated. I'm like, well, how many industries do you feel probably say that?

Speaker 1 Insurance saturated, cars, solar, everything saturated, like funnels saturated. Everybody's, everything's chairs saturated.

Speaker 1 So,

Speaker 1 you know, so like, anyway, so, so going, going back here, so the, the P, it's, it's how you frame the offer, okay?

Speaker 1 So, you know, Dan and I were, Dan were talking about like, imagine two family picture frames. So imagine your family picture frame, you got your kids there, your parents there, whatever.

Speaker 1 It's on the, it's on the mantle, okay? Same exact picture, but now you have to go buy two frames. The first frame you buy is like immaculate.
It's like, you know, you got it from like Trump.com.

Speaker 1 You know, it's like all gold. You know, if you've ever been to like Trump Towers, everything's like gold.
The chocolate bars are gold. You know, you're like, this guy likes gold.

Speaker 1 And so like, it's just gold, like the best picture frame in the world. And another frame, you go to the flea market and it's like got cobswebs in it.
It's broken. It just, it looks cheap.

Speaker 1 It looks horrible. Same family picture.
Which one are you? getting?

Speaker 1 The one that's framed better.

Speaker 1 So your offer is somewhat important, but the main thing that will separate you from everybody else is how you frame the offer. That's it.

Speaker 1 And when you start to realize that, how you frame what you're selling, and that's going to determine if they buy from you not, like everything will change because you'll start focusing less on the product and you'll start focusing on the results of why they're even buying something like that.

Speaker 1 And I think most salespeople just, they don't understand that. I think they're starting to get there.
Yeah. It's good.
I think most salespeople, they follow script.

Speaker 1 You know, I think about that with, you talk about getting back in the car to sales sales guys and then be like, oh, it's not working, neighbor's not working.

Speaker 1 No one's thinking like the deeper strategies, like principles behind it. Just like, oh, it didn't work for this thing.
It's like, yeah, but like, why?

Speaker 1 Yeah, because like, look, in every sales organization, how does some, how do salespeople selling the same thing to the same prospects, same price points, using the same script, how do they get completed?

Speaker 1 They got better leads.

Speaker 1 It's because of, it's not necessarily the, the,

Speaker 1 the words, but it's how they say the words. It's how they ask the questions.
It's their physiology. That's a big part of it.
Now, the words do matter.

Speaker 1 You know, every book talks, you know, 93% is your nonverbal, 7% is your words. That's kind of a failed study.
That's an old study. It's actually a little bit more.

Speaker 1 About 30% is your words you use and the things you ask.

Speaker 1 67% of it is just how you ask the questions, the tone, right? And your body language and the cadence, how you pace out the question compared to asking it too fast.

Speaker 1 You know, there's so many nuances there. So cool.
All right, I want to geek out on the marketing side of this.

Speaker 1 So you created an MPQ, you're going out there, you spend this first year and a half spending more money than you're making.

Speaker 1 What was the transition as far as like, this is the offer, this is the funnel, this is the thing we created, this is the business model.

Speaker 1 Like, what is what was the winning business model for you after you tried a bunch of things? So you're like, okay, we got it. Now we can start growing scale.
I think the first year was like 2019.

Speaker 1 I did three webinars. It was me and my assistant.
That was it. So she was my assistant at my old job before I retired.
I was like, hey, Beth, I'm starting this thing.

Speaker 1 Do you want to come be my assistant? She's like, I'm in. So it's me and Beth.
And so like, I think that's when we signed up for ClickFunnels. I think she did that.
She saw something. ClickFunnels.

Speaker 1 Still remember 297. I'm like, oh, it's ClickFunnels.
And then

Speaker 1 we hired

Speaker 1 this marketing agency, you know, to run our traffic. And I didn't know anything about traffic, you know, or how that worked or how to write ad copy or anything.
And they just started advertising.

Speaker 1 And I, you know, I had a little bit of, I'm like, okay, I'm going to throw some money into this, you know, and I think we did three webinars. I don't remember how many people we got on there, but

Speaker 1 those days are behind me. But that first year, I think we did about 1.3 million in sales, just three webinars, because I was still kind of like retired.
And I think we spent 1.9.

Speaker 1 So, you know, we just lost 600 grand. That was just coming off because you didn't have a following at the point, right? That was just finance.

Speaker 1 Man, people show up, nothing, something they're gone after. Nothing, nothing, no, nothing.
That's still pretty amazing, though.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, and I didn't know like, you know, how to how to go from selling one to one or like one to five or ten in a boardroom to then like, how do I sell on a webinar where people, I'm not even in front of them.

Speaker 1 It was awkward for me, right? I had sold on the phone, and I was sold in the boardroom in front of people.

Speaker 1 But going to, like, now I've got, you know, 5,000 people on a webinar, I'm like, mumbly and bumbly. I was probably one of those people, you're like, oh, God, that guy told this story too long.

Speaker 1 Horrible. But after the first couple of times, you know, I learned quickly.
I'm like, okay, that didn't work. I'm like, analyze it.
I'm like, okay, that sounded like crap. I'm curious.

Speaker 1 I tell people all the time, like, there's a difference between one and one selling, one to many. You've done both.
And

Speaker 1 what were the tweaks? Like, what were the changes you had to make to transition from one to selling?

Speaker 1 Well, the biggest thing is it's very easy to like if i'm on a zoom call or a phone call or in person with a person how to basically like instead of i mean there's so many different things but instead of like a lot of people like oh you got to mirror the prospect well i'm like well i i'm going to teach you how to get them to mirror you that's pretty easy when you sell one to one or maybe there's four people in a room when there's 3,000 a little bit different.

Speaker 1 Who am I mirroring? Everybody else. There's a little bit of a tweak there.

Speaker 1 You know, I can tell if I'm selling one-to-one, usually within the first like couple of things that they say, like how they feel loved, like, or what fears they have.

Speaker 1 Like this guy has a fear of significance, that he's not significant, because in the first 30 seconds, he said he went to Harvard and he got his degree in this, and I didn't even ask him.

Speaker 1 So what's his fear that he's going to be viewed as not significant or dumb, right? So I can see that, the patterns and the principles pretty quickly and adjusts very quickly.

Speaker 1 But when, you know, you've got 15,000 people on a webinar, how do you do that? You know they're in there, but how do you do that? So I had to start learning.

Speaker 1 It's just the principles, it's the patterns. And eventually, you know, I started learning patterns.
And then I go hire people

Speaker 1 that maybe have sold on stage before because I want to learn from them.

Speaker 1 And then I'll take what I know with psychology and be like, oh, you know, the way they ask that question, that's a really good question, but they ask it way too fast.

Speaker 1 If they just slowed down and they went from like really playful tone there and then like lowered it into, I'm concerned for you, that would have landed better.

Speaker 1 You know, so I just did little shifts like that. But

Speaker 1 I'm a huge believer in like just hiring hiring people that already know how to do what you you want to do and learn from them and you just it the trick is you got to find the right people to do that because in the very beginning that first year or two I was just throwing money I was just like oh you do ads

Speaker 1 100 grand here.

Speaker 1 Oh you do a website. How much is it 40 grand? Okay here like just like throwing money and that's you know, that's why I spent lost like 600 grand the first year.

Speaker 1 Yeah, then I'm like okay market agencies, maybe they don't work. Maybe we're gonna have to figure this out, you know?

Speaker 1 And then the next year, maybe we did a couple million more We were like actually profitable and at that point were you pulling more people internally or you just find different agencies or whatever And then then like after the after two years I'm like, okay, like I don't know how to really run this type of business because at a high level I've been a vice president of sales for a really big company in my corporate career and I was a chief sales officer for a really large company, but that's completely different than like You own the business and you have to hire the people and everything.

Speaker 1 It's like a startup. It's like you're talking about nine-day difference.
I was a chief sales officer of a company who was already doing 400 million a year. Just different, you know? And so

Speaker 1 I just, I had to, like, I had to figure out, like, okay, I am, my strengths are here.

Speaker 1 My weaknesses are here. I'm not very good at this.
I don't like this. So I need to find somebody that's really strong in this area.
And that's when I started just finding people that would do that.

Speaker 1 I'm like, it's going to be way less expensive for me just to hire them and pay them. to get the result that I want than me trying to figure out how to write ad copy.
Yeah. Just things like that.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And then started, things started to shift.

Speaker 1 You know, 2020, we started getting on the map you know we might have did maybe four or five million you know which is not a ton i look at it and i'm like oh geez you know 2021 we doubled that you know we won the big 10 million dollar award or whatever you know and then uh my first reel was january 2022.

Speaker 1 i didn't need a real i didn't even have an instagram account before january 2022 i think one of my girls told me like you need to do these reels or something i don't even camera yeah she's on camera you need to do these reels i'm like what's the real you know on ig so started doing reels in january 2022 and then that's when we started like you know getting out there because then we started retargeting the reels and like our ad spins went way down and I'm like wow this is really awesome you know yeah and so we just you know we're always trying to improve in that game you know yeah build up the organic that's cool with the ads

Speaker 1 um for men the funnel nerds i want to walk through the process right now you're doing organic pay what's what's the what's the breakdown and where the traffic's coming from for your business right now uh that would be a cool trick

Speaker 1 people but we we have uh curtis doesn't like this term it's called you know slos because he's like ah that one is close to being SL but it's liquidated 100% we can't call it

Speaker 1 almost self-liquidated almost self-liquidated offer yeah we're gonna rename it so we have several of those we have the NAPQ black book of questions we have the insurance black book of questions that's our biggest industry we're trained so it's any type of insurance life insurance is our biggest final expense commercial, property casualty, just a bunch of homeowners.

Speaker 1 And then we have a new one called NEPQ Black Book of Cold Prospecting, like cold calling, right? So more for our B2B audience.

Speaker 1 And uh we generate i don't know i don't know how many buyer leads i i know the black book the generic black book does like i think 10 000 plus buyer leads a month just just from that that's not any affiliates that's just us cold traffic and then we have an outbound team um we also have

Speaker 1 i think we have the things called the funnels you know i just don't look at them i see some ads i'm like man we've been running that ad for three years it still works still works there's like gazillion comments on there i'm like does anybody buy from that ad is anybody auditing that but um

Speaker 1 you can tell I don't know all. This is the whole world I live in.
I'm like, you don't know any of this information? This is the most important part.

Speaker 1 This is all the marketing people on our team. But we have some really good people that do that.
Blake is our guy that does all of our media buying. Blake White's a good guy if you know him.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 I try to stay in my lane, man.

Speaker 1 I just

Speaker 1 get on the camera and say some stuff. Here's the script.
Read it out.

Speaker 1 So someone buys one of your SOLs at the beginning. What's the rest of the business on the backside look like? Okay, so let's say they're called by the NAPQ Black Book.

Speaker 1 Okay, so there's many different avenues. So let's say they buy NAPQ Black Book.
Then we have an outbound team. So we have about 55, 60 salespeople.
I could be off one or two.

Speaker 1 And probably at least half of those are on the outbound team. So they're calling all those Black Book buyers from any Black Book.

Speaker 1 And we have another SLO called the Top 50 Objections Black Book or something. It's up there too.
I don't know how much that generates. And so they call them.

Speaker 1 So might have a 10, 15 minute conversation about what they're looking, why they're looking to possibly learn how to sell more hey crazy idea we want to learn how to sell more i don't know crazy and then they'll book them in with one of our uh senior specialists is what we call them and they'll go over like different training options you know help build the gap you know from where they are to where they want to be and then they'll go into if they're a consumer not a company they'll go into like one of our main core three offers we have any pq academy it's what's called fundamentals that's like a four thousand dollar offer that's like a 51 hour course of of me you know all recordings of different subjects for sales and then they have like one training call a week, which is a huge like group coaching call that I do.

Speaker 1 Okay, but you might have thousands of people on that one. That's a four grand offer.
And then we have one that's a 10 grand offer where they get the portal 51 hour course and then they get more

Speaker 1 specialized training. So they might have another training call each week.

Speaker 1 I think in that program, there's like nine or ten different training calls a week on different subjects, advanced tonality, objection prevention, deframing, identity framing.

Speaker 1 You teach those trainers their trainers. Yeah trainers.
I do one of those. That's it in that program, that 10 grid.
But that's a huge group call.

Speaker 1 There might be a thousand, two thousand people on there every week. And then we have trainers that do the other calls.
Okay, those are group training. And then we have what's called

Speaker 1 inner circle mastery. Okay.
And that's where I'm more involved. That's industry specific.
So we have like, we pretty much train every industry at this point, all the subcategories.

Speaker 1 So let's say if you sold doors, right, home improvement.

Speaker 1 Okay, we probably have hundreds of home improvement scripts from the different companies we train, different salespeople we train, because the first three years

Speaker 1 we were savages because I knew we were going to do this.

Speaker 1 And like, me and the trainers like wrote out all these scripts from every industry, and people didn't pay as much for them as they probably should.

Speaker 1 But now we have a bank of like thousands of industry-specific scripts. So when they come in there, they'll go copy and paste one of those from their industry or one that's very similar.

Speaker 1 And then on those training calls, we teach them patterns and principles on how to tweak it for basically what they sell. And I do two of those training calls per week.

Speaker 1 And I do it because I really like doing it.

Speaker 1 And for me, in my mind, like,

Speaker 1 if I'm not constantly training, I'm losing skills.

Speaker 1 Are you with me on that? Like, I can't just, like, I'm not going to do any more training. I'm just done.
I'm retired.

Speaker 1 Like, your brain's, like, my, I don't, you know, my brain cells would, yeah, I have to keep learning. So we're always tweaking things.

Speaker 1 You know, we might have a client on there that sells, let's say, you know, I don't know, SaaS or something. They sell an AI device that helps doctors, you know,

Speaker 1 you know, automate their notes instantly rather than manually doing it or whatever, you know, and we write this sales structure out for it.

Speaker 1 And they might have changed like what I call problem awareness question just a little bit of a different. And they're like, oh, the way they changed that because I'm teaching principles and patterns.

Speaker 1 I'm like, that was really good. We could take that same change and we can do that in this industry, this industry, and I'm always like.
creative. Like NEPQ is always ever developing.

Speaker 1 And that's what I believe you have to be. Because I believe when you commit to mastery, I believe you never master it in this life.
Like you're committed to mastery marketing.

Speaker 1 Would you say like, I know, there's nothing I can get better at? Like, you're always like, I study more and more. What am I learning? Yeah,

Speaker 1 I'm searching for more. Always learning.
I'm like, how do I tweak? How do I make this better? And I think you have to be like that.

Speaker 1 Unfortunately, I see a lot of our competitors that we've kind of blown by

Speaker 1 who just, they didn't do that anymore.

Speaker 1 They just, it got stale, you know, and we're talking some companies that have been around since like the 1970s that were the big boys that were now have flown way past because they just got stale.

Speaker 1 And I'm never, I'm never going to, I'm always looking over my shoulder. I'm always scared.

Speaker 1 they're coming back they're coming back you know so I'm always like looking you know so I always gotta I always gotta stay in there you know my thing people always ask me when I was in sales like

Speaker 1 how are you selling so much I'm like

Speaker 1 I don't know I'm just out learning everybody else

Speaker 1 there's no like secret sauce like I just I just put in more time learning this stuff than everybody else like when I'm driving down the road when I was in sales even now I'm not listening I always make fun of Taylor Swift I'm not listening to Taylor Swift like how is this helping me sell more like no offense you know Maybe you have a cheat day on Saturdays, your music day, you know, where you just listen to, you just jam out, you know?

Speaker 1 But like, in my mind, like, you know, Brian Tracy, first concept I ever learned in sales, University on Wills. I went to the seminar.
It's like 2001 in Salt Lake City, Utah.

Speaker 1 Like, he's like, use your car as University of Wills. I'm like, yes.
Literally turn off the radio. All I did was listen to like sales CDs.
all the time. And you do that, man.

Speaker 1 I'm telling you, you do that just

Speaker 1 even if you do that an hour day. People are like, oh, I don't have time.
Well, what do do you listen to when you drive to work? What do you listen to when you drive to the chiropractor?

Speaker 1 What do you listen to when you drive home? What do you listen to when you drop the kids off of soccer? What do you listen to when you go back? What do you listen to to iron your shirt?

Speaker 1 You have those earbud things. What do you listen when you eat breakfast? I mean, you don't have to get up at three in the morning to do this.

Speaker 1 Like, you can listen to five minutes here, 10 minutes here, eight minutes here. And every day, if you do that consistently, that's at least an hour of learning.

Speaker 1 And you do that seven days a week, that's seven hours a week, that's 28 hours a month, that's 350 or whatever hours a year.

Speaker 1 And you do that for 23, 24 years, it's it's kind of really hard to suck at anything. Yeah.
Because you just outlearn everybody. But you have to say,

Speaker 1 you have to stay, you're committed to mastery, you know? And to me, I just, I just like it.

Speaker 1 I'm always like, especially selling from stage because it wasn't something I was used to. So now I'm like, I'm just like, all I'm just like mastering the deframing and the reframing.

Speaker 1 I'm like, okay, I got to do this. Like, just to me, it's like exciting to learn this stuff, you know? I just love it.
So cool.

Speaker 1 And then in your business, you're also doing events and challenges like that. How does that fit into the core? funnel?

Speaker 1 Yeah, so the ascension model is let's say that the sales people can never get a hold of the person. Well, then we have funnels that start to retarget them to get them to go to our challenges.

Speaker 1 We used to do challenges, the five-day events, like every three months, but our marketing team is like getting burnt out all the time.

Speaker 1 And so we switched that to, I think this year we're doing three. We've already done a couple of them.
We have our next big one at the end of September. And so they get funneled to those events.

Speaker 1 And then every six weeks we do like a two-day masterclass, which is like two hours each day.

Speaker 1 And the CTA is is simply to book a call with one of our specialists to learn about our industry-specific training. But we get like 35, 40% on that that book in a call.

Speaker 1 And so now we're automating, like we just did a big insurance workshop where we had like, I don't know, five or six thousand people. And it was a paid workshop.

Speaker 1 They all paid like 50 to 100 bucks just to be on, which I like the paid.

Speaker 1 The bigger ones, the big challenges, we do those for free with a VIP. But these smaller sites, they're all paid.
And

Speaker 1 every six weeks we do that, so they might get funneled to that. If they don't book a call there or buy from there, they might get funneled to the next challenge.

Speaker 1 So they're always getting funneled to something is what we do. Something to reactivate them, re-get them fired up, and then push it back to the call again.

Speaker 1 Now we have a whole community that's being built out,

Speaker 1 a platform. I don't know all the details.
It's our community manager. It's not

Speaker 1 the one Hermalizing has with

Speaker 1 school. I think it's called Disco or something.
I can't remember. I don't know.
It's very similar. I don't know all the details.
But anyways.

Speaker 1 So some of our platforms are for consumers and then others are for companies. Now companies are different.
They're not necessarily in those consumer programs because they need more attention.

Speaker 1 And so it's all customized at that point.

Speaker 1 Most of the companies we train probably pay like a monthly retainer of anywhere on the low end of 2,500 bucks to like NBC Golf Channel is one of our clients and they probably pay us 15 grand a month.

Speaker 1 And they have access to our portal and they have like a sales trainer that does like two training calls.

Speaker 1 a month for them and then they get on a huge group training call that I do with all companies where I teach something every month. So there's different things you do and some of them pay for more.

Speaker 1 Some of them then pay for workshops in person, you know, and depending on the funding they have, it's either me or one of our trainers that are that are doing that.

Speaker 1 So it's, yeah, businesses are a little bit different. Yeah.
Very cool. Well, thanks for just trying to learn, man.
I'm trying to learn from you.

Speaker 1 Well, my funnel nerds and my side will love kind of hearing the behind the scenes, that kind of stuff. I'm sure there's a lot more that

Speaker 1 I didn't go over. Our marketing people are are going to get upset at me.
Yeah. Well, for all my people, where's the best SLO for them to look at to get plugged into your world?

Speaker 1 Is it the Black Book Questions? Yeah. I mean, I don't even know the website to that.

Speaker 1 That's how uninvolved I am. Anybody know the funnel? Anybody know the funnel? But I'd say just have them text me.
Just have them text me. Okay.
They text you.

Speaker 1 What's the number? We changed the text number. Is it 480-637-2944? Yeah? Yeah.
Have them text me at 480-637-2944.

Speaker 1 So me and a couple of our sales trainers lock ourselves in a room every here and there. We answer questions.
Through text? Yeah. Really? Yeah.
Well, there's not just me, it's other sales trainers.

Speaker 1 I wish I could answer every question.

Speaker 1 Sometimes there's like, are you sure you want to give my people your cell phone now?

Speaker 1 Come in every hour. Yeah, but have them text us questions and have them just text us on that number and just say, hey, I heard Russell, you know, can we get a link to the black book? Now,

Speaker 1 there's an investment.

Speaker 1 $27 for the Black book. I know.
I know. If you need a GoFundMe page, just let us know.

Speaker 1 If you can't afford this, then you need to eat more.

Speaker 1 But hey, I mean, look, I know your audience is smart.

Speaker 1 They're entrepreneurs. And, you know, I love working with entrepreneurs like your audience because as an entrepreneur, they know that the biggest asset they have is their time.

Speaker 1 And once their time is gone, they can never what? They can never get it back.

Speaker 1 So smart entrepreneurs, they know that investing in mentorship, coaching, and those type of things, and learning from others who have mastered things, help them get to the next level.

Speaker 1 So you got some smart people. Yeah.
Very cool. Well, thanks, man, for letting me come hang out and over here your side of the world and share all these really cool things.

Speaker 1 Thanks for having me on, man. Thanks for being here, man.

Speaker 1 Do you have a funnel, but it's not converting? The problem 99.9% of the time is that your funnel is good, but you suck at selling.

Speaker 1 If you want to learn how to sell so your funnels will actually convert, then get a ticket to my next selling online event by going to sellingonline.com slash podcast.

Speaker 1 That's sellingonline.com/slash podcast.