Make Your Business Impossible to Ignore: Day with Dan Kennedy (4 of 4) | #Marketing - Ep. 18

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What's up, everybody? This is Russell. Welcome back to the show.
And this is the exciting conclusion of our series with Dan Kennedy. And if you guys, again, if you don't know, Dan Kennedy was my first mentor.
He's how I learned marketing and sales was originally all from Dan. And I'm so honored to have him at this year's Funnel Hacking Live.
We had a whole VIP day with him. And I've been sharing with you guys my two hour interview with him on stage.
And it was cool. It was like, I don't talk a lot.
I ask a question. I sit back and let Dan do the delivery.
And hopefully you got a lot from this interview so far. Again, we're on part number four right now.
And in today's episode, we're going to wrap up the final installment of the interview. Dan and I are going to deep dive into sales and marketing, the formulas behind market disruption, radical positioning, how to attract massive attention, whether positive or negative, and how to dominate your industry.
And it's going to be a lot of fun. So I hope you guys enjoy this episode.
If you haven't plugged into Dan Kennedy's world yet, if you go to nobsletter.com, you can go get a free subscription to his print newsletter. It's worth its weight in gold.
It's like literally getting Dan Kennedy to fly to your house once a month and teach you the best thing that he's got that month. He's been publishing this new letter for 40 plus years.

I've been a subscriber now for almost 20.

And if you are just getting started,

now is the time to go to nobsletter.com

and become a subscriber.

That way you can learn from the man himself,

Mr. Dan Kennedy.

With that said, we're gonna jump into

the exciting conclusion of part number four

of the day with Dan from Funnel Hacking Live 10.

I hope you guys enjoy this.

And then next week we'll get back

to our normal podcast programming.

I appreciate you all. And I hope you enjoy this this.
And then next week we'll get back to our normal podcast programming. I appreciate you all.

And I hope you enjoy this episode with Dan Kennedy.

Are there any other things that those of us who want to step into that and become the radical or the man of the white horse?

Like any other things specifically you'd recommend people thinking about or doing as they're trying to step into that?

Well, so there's a lot of models.

So this is really pretty easy to model because it's pretty formulaic. So if you, again, if you think about the MLM industry and you go look at Turner.
If you think about

the diet industry in the 60s

and 70s and you go look at Atkins.

If you look at

the launch of Apple by Jobs

you know

and really

the expansion of Apple

where they had to go get them

and bring them back

Thank you. and really the expansion of Apple, where they had to go get them and bring them back.
So on and on and on. There are a lot of models.
So if you pick a category, if your category is health, if you're in the health business, there's a lot of models. All the way back to the creator of chiropractic.
And so that history is all there, right? In finance, there are a lot of models. all the way back to the bookstore, Baldwin, that you and I were at, not at the same time, but we were there yesterday, the rare bookstore at the Venetian.
there's a book The Stock Market didn't use something like that

and it's from 1930. And I'm not going to remember the author's name, but he was a big heretic at the time about investing.
So there's these models kind of in every category. And then there's the sort of the instruction manuals for the aftermath of it, The Man on the White Horse position, Eric Hoffer's book, The True Believer, is one of the basics, the fundamentals.
For people specifically in the information, One Way to Make a Living, the Lyman Wood book would be another one. So there's no shortage of things to look at, understand what each part was, and replicate it.
Probably 80% there's a book involved. somebody did a book and they promoted a book if you think about even in the advertising industry right early disruptors of agency models and advertising strategies, Ogilvy would be one of them, they all wrote a book explaining themselves and their radical ideas, right? So Ogilvy on advertising is Ogilvy's explanation of what he believes, why he believes it, and at the time it was very contrary to traditional advertising.
So what Ogilvy said, if you don't have a big idea,

don't waste your money on advertising.

Most advertising of the time had no big ideas.

It was just basic brand advertising, you know,

not much more than a logo and a picture of a building.

And we've been in business since 1936. There's your ad.
So he was a pretty big heretic and very theatrical. Most of the time in New York, he roamed around wearing a cape.
and he drove a big-ass Rolls-Royce,

killed himself to get the Rolls-Royce ad account, which he said was a terrible account to have. Very hard to advertise Rolls-Royces.
He did come up with a great ad, of course. But so he used to park this thing right in front of his offices illegally every day, pay the tickets, and go to lunch.
We're in a great big velvet cape and a book. So you will almost, 80% of the time, in any of the models you see, you're going to find a book.
not only in the contemporary models are you going to find podcast, YouTube channel, right? You're going to find the new media as well as the book used in the same way, right? It allows people to find you, but to get them to go, look, you have to stir up all this where they already are.

So, like a lot of people have abandoned trade journal advertising in niches and they shouldn't have because it's a great place to start this.

Readership's still about 20% of an association and the rates are cheap because people are abandoning print, you know, and so forth.

Jay Abraham had an ad he used a number of times. It's really a great ad.
I think Halbert wrote it, but I'm not sure. He used it in insurance and he used it in medical.
The headline was, Who is this man and why is he saying these terrible things about your

professor?

Or who is this man and why is he saying these terrible things about your

business?

And he would then play this game in the end,

right?

And with a little time, of course, opposition arose. And he would quote the ad.
And now I add the opposition to the ad, right? And they were great lead generation campaigns. Now, in today's world, an ad like that would be a lot more productive because there's a lot more ways for the curious to go find him and start to you know get cooked in his environment that ad will drive people to amazon will drive people to tiktok it will drive people to linkedin it will drive people right and so as long as you're there that ad now is infinitely more productive than it was pre-internet you know as as i think you know the you know there's three media choices right there's there's online only there's offline only, there's three media choices, right?

There's online only, there's offline only, and there's integrated media.

And the only sensible one is integrated, you know, is integrated media. because each media always creates spin-ff traffic to other media.

And if you aren't there to capture it, you lose it.

When you have opposition to you being voiced,

that drives traffic.

And as long as you're there to get it,

Thank you. that drives traffic.
And as long as you're there to get it and then carry that message forward, you benefit from all the opposition. It takes a lot longer than any market to get famous by getting famous than by getting famous and infamous.
The infamy helps. So early, when we ran the first personal power show, the first Tony show at Kathy Ranker, the psychiatric professional community and the psychologist professional community, the therapist professional community, they, as that thing got traction, they all got pretty vocal in their criticism.
well, I mean, look, their argument was uncredentialed, right? Therefore, risky could really hurt some people. Same thing for Werner Erhard and asked which preceded Tony.
And he's insisting he can bring somebody up on stage and instantly cure some chronic phobia they've had for years, that we treat for years. You know, Woody you have if we have any in the audience i'm sorry but you know woody allen's lying about therapists was always i got the best one in new york i've had him i've been going to him every week for for 30 years um and like tony's curing us like this you know know, I'm sure you saw him,

the instant orgasm thing, right?

From Tony?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's really funny.

Good punchline.

Yeah, but she was due.

Yeah, right, okay.

So there was a lot of griping, right?

Well, so what did that do? It sent people, the restless native, the patient who's in his seventh year and still has the same problem he had when he started. The professional

who's questioning what

he or she has been told about

how to do the profession,

it sent them to

go

investigate.

And then

the more places you are,

because different people go different

places, the more places you are, the more you benefit. And that's why this last time around, like Trump was everywhere.
I mean, everywhere. You couldn't avoid it.

And people start, well, that actually makes sense.

You know?

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Not a lot, but we have philosophical conflicts

but still

and

the executive director

is another one

of these

you can't tell anybody I told

you this ever

ever

because we all hate the guy

but I voted

for him

because

Thank you. because we all hate the guy.
But I voted for him because if I separate him from his policies,

they all make sense to me.

Well, how would that happen?

She would have to consume some of him to get to that point, right? So I'm sure here's the media probably that she consumes all the time. NPR, all right, PBS, MSNBC, probably gets a bunch of stuff from like-minded people in social media.
And what did all that do? Instead of keeping her away from Satan, it made her go take a look at Satan, right? So the opposition is useful. And I've always gone out of my way to trigger it to have it against position to have a villain all of that if you take any no BS book any of the titles they all have this early in the book.

There is an establishment, archaic villain established, and then attacked, and then the alternative system, you know, is offered to you. And like the Ruthless Management book has gotten the most negative stuff.
Reviews, you know, all that. Mostly when people have read it, they just don't like the word Ruthless.
I'm deadly serious about that, by the way. But I'd almost rather have the negative reviews than the positive ones.
Because I know what effect it has on people, right? It's like, well, I got to take a look at this guy, right? and a lot of people don't have the courage

to play this game. But when you understand its architecture and then you start looking for it, you find it used again and again and again.
I saw an ad the other day you would love. It's for this book that's coming out.
It's like a mind control persuasion book. And the ad was basically, it was two Amazon reviews.
One was five stars. Like this is the greatest book I've ever read on mind control.
And the second one was this book should be banned and burned. And the headline was both of these are right.
And it's like that ad running and running like man it's such a good ad or for well see years ago the catholic church used to ban movies so they used to tell everybody uh i know this because my first wife was cath. They used to put out a list of movies that Catholics should not see.
And I always thought, do you idiots know what you're doing? Because I can tell you right now that you're succeeding with some, but you're driving a whole bunch of people to the theater to see this movie who probably wouldn't have gone otherwise. eyes.
They banned The Exorcist when it came out, the original movie, The Exorcist. Which was basically a junk horror movie that my guess is would have died at the box office.
If the Catholic Church hadn't made such a big stink about it and told everybody, stay away from this thing. And I remember thinking, they're the greatest sales force for this movie ever.
You can't beat this, right? I mean, this is like your parents telling you, you know, don't read this book.

What are you going to do?

You're all going to read the book, right?

I mean, I was a little kid.

I don't know how old, but probably, let's see, 60.

It was probably right around 63 that the original Peyton Place novel came out. It was a big deal.
You're even too young probably. Scandalous, this book.
And it was about a small town and everybody in it had secrets and a lot of sexual overtones and, um, uh,

fiction, but based on real people. In fact, a bunch of people sued.

Um, and so it was the housewife's hidden book of the year, right?

They all had it, and they all hid it somewhere,

and they all read it.

A contemporary phenomenon might have been Fifty Shades of Grey

for the first six months or so, right? Which is a very funny book. I don't know that they meant it for comedy, but, you know, you go, most wives go ask the husband to tire up in bed.

He will.

And then he'll go get a sandwich and watch the game in peace. That's what's going to happen, you know.
I mean, it's not, oh, you know, be careful what you wish for. So anyway, this book was, you know, hit and not for minors and, you know, and all that.
And it took me about a day to find it, but I found it. And it turns out pretty much every kid I knew had found his mother's book and was reading some of it and putting it back and reading some of it and putting it back.
And that's great amortizing, right? And this is the opposite of being dominated by disapproval.

You actually create disapproval to use disapproval.

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I think that about a third of Trump is doing these things, mostly little ones, mostly to entertain himself and to create another blast of this kind of conversation. And it's amazing to me how the media always bites.
It's just incredible. So a couple of days ago, I guess, he was asked, because there's some rumors about Prince Harry having lied on his visa application about ever using drugs or something.

So somebody asked Trump at one of his, he answers questions pretty much all the time.

Somebody asked him if it turned out that it was true,

if he would deport Prince Harry.

Now, there's any number of ways you could normally,

if you were a normal person, you would handle that question.

He says, no, he's got enough trouble with that wife of his. She's terrible.
Now, this is really not worth being remarked upon, but hours of media time. How dare he? and, you know, the relationship between America and England will be forever severed.
And, you know, they're on fire about this. And I just wanted to say, when it goes to his head, does he say to himself, this will be fun, right? I'll just throw this out there or does it not even is there no edit mechanism at all I don't know I'd love to ask him because there's a lot of it right and itulates, and it's actually magnetic.
People sort of, well, maybe

I'll start paying attention to this guy, right? Because that was funny, right? I wonder what

else he's going to say today. But you just have to not care about the disapproval and that's so contrary it's why you see this model this model is not how do you make it up so you see this model over and over and over again, but you don't see it commonly used because if everybody used it, it would disintegrate.
It would have no power because most people, business people, are hypersensitive to any disapproval. And they are, in an exercise of futility, they are seeking no disapproval.
And first of all, it can't be done. So you can't do it even if you try, you know.
I mean, there are people who don't like vanilla ice cream. I mean, I think it's hard to be opposed to it, but there are people who will give you a 30-minute lecture on live vanilla ice cream.
It's a terrible.

And there's people that don't like anything else, right?

So you can't get to 100%.

You can't even get to 100% neutrality, 100% ambivalence.

You can't even get to, let alone 100% approval. So you're not going to get there no matter what you do.
And you're never going to be the talk of the town because of that. If that worked,

in 2016, Jeb Bush would have been president.

Well, because that's what he is.

And that's what he fashioned himself to be.

Nothing to object to.

But nothing, period period either. Right? Nothing to really get excited about one way or the other.
Right? I think, like the NFL has figured this out with halftime shows. I think they're deliberately doing shows that a lot of people talk about has the worst one ever.
And people are tuning in to see how bad and offensive it can possibly be. And then they like complaining about it for three or four days, right? Because otherwise you wouldn't do what they've done the last couple of years.
So this is contrary to sort of the way we are taught to behave really from childhood on up, right? And, but like nobody drives 50 miles to get vanilla ice cream either, right? It's just not a big thing. And so if you're vanilla, and if you try and do it all positive so if you look at media for a time the two highest paid broadcasters ever were Limbaugh and Howard Stern and then when Howard went to that ended that.
But they were both on AM radio. They had the two biggest audiences.
And obviously not a lot in common other than the fact that they said triggering controversial things that then got multiplied out into other media and then caused people to be curious and go take a look. And highly disapproved of.
Right? In both cases. Howard has some women fans but, you know, not a lot.

It's pretty much a guy's, you know, a guy's club. And Limbaugh, he didn't have any liberal fans.
He had liberals who listened to get mad. but so Howard had and has a lot of women who have very negative reactions to him.
And the ones that listen complain amongst their friends. And the same was true of Limbaugh.
So, again, if you're looking for a model, you're looking at not the pleasant morning AM radio host, who there's three of them on the show, kind of the Today show of radio,

and they do the weather and they do the traffic

and they talk about local community events

and here's what we know about those people.

They're never going to get rich.

They're never going to move up the media ladder.

They're going to be in local media their entire lives.

And most people from one week to the next don't even know they exist. As they age in their careers, the most common question asked amongst people in their community is, are they still alive? I didn't think that guy was still alive.
Is he still alive? I thought he was dead. The model is Limbaugh.
The model is Stern. And you would go back to Limbaugh day one forward, Howard day one forward in order to see what they had done if you wanted to become a top 10, you know, radio personality or now podcast personality, right? I mean, Rogan's model, all the secrets are visible, right?

Now, you've got to go all the way back to Rogan day one and follow the model all the way forward,

but there's nothing hidden, right?

All of his secrets are visible,

and one of the things he does is he says controversial things, and he has people on who are greatly disapproved of, and then that gets multiplied out through the media, right? A lot of symbiosis going on, right? So, yeah, he really helped Trump, or Trump really helped him. Whole new audience, you know, in both directions.
So what does that tell you? So that tells you if you are using a podcast as part of your media, make sure you have some people on it who offend a bunch of people. No, I'm deadly serious.
No, no, no, I'm not kidding. There's no point in having somebody on that everybody's going to forget after the vanilla ice cream is gone.
And they're not going to multiply out through other media. What's the point? No.

Have somebody on that a lot of people disagree with

and disapprove of

who can hold their own

for two or three hours.

Preferably have an audience they bring

but

even if they don't

because

having that happen

will bring more attention to you

Thank you. Association, we'll talk later about cast of characters, but one of the things about this model and association is radical with radical heretic with heretic and not just positive, but also negative, because you want noise.
You want to be talked about in a multiplied way, almost no matter how you are talked about. When Halbert was, he never actually got on, but Johnny talked about his family crest letter and about Halbert as a guy who claims to be the world's greatest copywriter and that this letter has been mailed more than any other letter

and it gives you your family crest.

And so I answered it.

I got the family crest and it's a complete scam and it's a ripoff and it's silly.

Halbert said you can't get better

press. He said

it's just terrific. He said

I'm the only copywriter ever mentioned

on the Tonight Show

in the history of the entire Tonight Show.

Direct marketers

companies who would touch me

before are calling wanting me

to write copy.

Because Carson says

Thank you. marketers, companies who would touch me before are calling wanting me to write copy, okay? Because Carson says, I wrote copy so good I could steal money from anybody, right? Well, the phone's ringing off the hook, right? Now, if it had been nice, it wouldn't have had near the impact.
So when we started, you asked about fear.

And most of the reason people won't use this model is that they're afraid of it.

And what they're really afraid of is vocal and visible disapproval.

Well, I think we're at the end of the session, and that was amazing. Should we all give Dan a huge round of applause? Do you have a funnel, but it's not converting? The problem 99.9% of the time is that your funnel is good, but you suck at selling.
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