#1 Negotiation Coach Share Secret to Successful Outcomes

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Not available in all states. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the show.
Today, we have a tremendous conversation for you with Kwame Christian. He is America's number one negotiation coach.
He has the number one negotiation podcast, Negoti. And if negotiation, if tough conversations, if getting to an outcome that makes you feel confident and satisfied and fulfilled is something that you struggle with, which for so long I did, I'm a people pleaser at heart.
And just my default mechanism was to say yes, regardless if whatever that person was asking for was good for me or not. And I've had to develop negotiation skills.
And in this conversation, Kwame breaks down negotiation in such a simple, but effective and powerful manner that even if you shrink and shrivel and start shaking with terror at the idea of having to negotiate for something like a raise or a tough conversation with a spouse, et cetera, that this, he is going to give you a framework today that you can put in place immediately. That is easy to understand, easy to remember, and incredibly easy to implement and is ubiquitous regardless of scenario and type of conversation, personal business, et cetera.

You are going to love this. There is so much value in this show today.

We're going to get to it right now. I give you Kwame Christian.

In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home dude super excited to talk to you so glad took some time. I want to start maybe at the end, which is why are most people so bad at negotiating anything? Like, it just seems like this is a skill that it is literally paramount to almost every conversation we have in our life.
Yet yet we're never trained on it. And when you see people actually have the pressure of some type, they tend to not know what to say, not know how to – it is just a skill that we are not seemingly naturally gifted with.
So why is this – why do so many people struggle with this particular skill of negotiation? This is such a great place to start, man. And especially the way that you framed it, negotiating anything, which is the name of the podcast.
This is perfect. You think I've done this before? I know.
Great job with research. And here's the thing.
I think that a lot of times we just need to break it down to the basics. And if we understand the basics, then understanding how to reverse engineer success becomes very easy.
So number one, why are we so bad at this? It's because we have never had the opportunity to meaningfully practice. You know, if I give you a bow and arrow and ask you to shoot a target, most likely you won't hit it.
I know I wouldn't. I just don't have the skills.
If you give me enough time and rep and put like dedicated, diligent practice to it, then we could do it, right? It's the same with difficult conversations. And I think what ends up happening is that people overcomplicate the situation and they don't recognize that in order to be successful, you just need a core set of skills.
And the thing is that we have had flashes of those skills at different times, but we need to put it together with intentionality. So we'll get to those core skills.
The other thing too is that in the negotiation industry for years, we have been giving recipes to people who are afraid to get in the kitchen. It's not an issue of people not understanding what needs to be done or said in the moment.
It's that for whatever reason, they cannot do or say what needs to be done or said in the moment. It is a mental and emotional issue.
Everybody's gonna have a unique performance gap that comes from something, right? For me, I'm a recovering people pleaser. And so that's what I had to overcome.
Some people have maybe childhood trauma and then it triggers that fight, flight or freeze response. And so whenever they are in a difficult conversation, they freeze or they fight back or they're overly combative or they are just they placate the other side and compromise too quickly.
And so we all need to understand what's holding us back so we can put ourselves in the best position for success. And we don't focus on the internal negotiation that we have to have with ourselves.
And as a result, we fail in the external negotiation and difficult conversations we have with other people. I love your point about the internal negotiation, because you think about all these influencers, not in a bad way, right? Like, like Goggins and even Rogan always, you know, say like on that, like workout, get at, like they're trying to teach you, Jocko, they're trying to teach you discipline, hard work, which are incredible things that are necessary for success.
And the question always comes like, why is being disciplined so hard? And I would have to imagine it's because we set a goal and then we don't, you know, when our mind or our lizard brain or whatever you want to call it starts pushing back on us, we have literally no idea how to negotiate with that thing that's going on up here. And like, that's the first negotiation every day.
Like, should I get out of bed or should I hit the snooze bar? Right. Absolutely.
It's the war within. How do we overcome that? Right.
And Goggins does a great job of breaking down how he has just mastered his mind to do just incredible things. And we need to figure out what it is that we need to do internally to get to that point.
And one of the things about discipline that people often overlook is that if we are doing it right, if we're doing it right, we should only be using discipline for a set amount of time until we develop a habit. And then you don't need to have discipline anymore.
So for me, when I'm trying to get up and go to the gym at the beginning, it was very hard, but now it's hard not to go even when I'm sick. you know, but because I remember how hard it was to get that discipline.
I say, listen, no matter what happens, I'm not losing that discipline muscle. So Ryan, for me, even on those days, if I'm sick, I'm not feeling it or I'm injured, whatever it happens to be, I will still get up.
I will still get dressed. I will get in my car.
I'll drive to the gym, park and and come back because I don't want to lose that discipline muscle. And one of the things that happens with negotiators is that we need to get to that point where we have moved past discipline to a habit.
Because I moved past discipline to a habit with the gym, we need to do the same thing. Because the difference between an expert and novice negotiator a lot of times isn't necessarily the skill because anybody can listen effectively.
Anybody can ask an insightful question. The tactics aren't hard to understand.
You can read a book and implement it immediately, right? But the thing is, we don't have the discipline or the habit to do it with consistency. So for instance, listening can be easy if I agree with everything that you say and you're very complimentary to me.
But if I'm in a tough negotiation or a tough conversation, then listening becomes very, very hard. But I need to utilize discipline in that moment and recognize that everything within me, my emotions will want me to jump in, to interrupt, to defend myself or not listen or just listen to respond, not listen to understand.

Right.

But I need to work through that in the moment.

And in the first few times I do, it'll be hard and then it'll slowly start to get easier.

But then if you do this with intentionality, then it just becomes your natural response.

Now you have the negotiation habit.

So you don't need to rely so much on discipline because it's just part of you at this point. You've intentionally programmed yourself for success.
I love the part about being intentional and how we program ourselves and kind of leading into that is is part of this similar to your to your gym example, kind of reframing how we view ourselves. So like you went from being I'm not a guy that works out to, if someone were to ask you, you're like, I work out, like I'm a guy that works out, like you've reframed kind of who you are.
Is that similar with the negotiation where, you know, I've literally heard people say like, I, I can't ask for a raise. Like I'm not that kind of person, right? Where it's simply just reframing your brain to go, well, you're just telling yourself that there's literally nothing intrinsic in you that makes you not the type of person that could negotiate something or go into that type of conversation.
So is part of this working to just reframe your own self-perception that you are the type of person who's willing to negotiate and willing to push back and ask questions and going through that? 100%. When you think about what leads to habit retention, one of the best things you can do is make identity-based habits, right? So for instance, they did a study where they said, okay, our goal is to try to get people to vote more or get the habit of voting.
And so instead of framing it in terms of voting, they said it's more powerful to frame it as the person is a voter. So you ask, what does a person like me do under these circumstances? Well, as a voter, I vote.
Right. And so what does somebody like me do under these circumstances? As a negotiator, I negotiate.
Right. So for me, I'm a husband.
I'm a father. And a lot of times I'm not feeling it.
I run a business, I'm tired, right? I'm exhausted, but I know, well, what should I do under the circumstances? I'm not just going to do what my body naturally leads me to do, especially when it's hard. I say, well, what does a good father do right now? A good father will take a deep breath, lock in, and focus on his son as he talks about his hard day at school, even though there are a bunch of emails and a lot of client responses I need to have and my employees are asking for my attention.
That's hard to utilize that discipline in the moment. But since I focus on my identity as a father, I'm locked in right now.
Right. And so when we put ourselves in those tough circumstances and we say, hey, listen, I'm the kind of guy, I'm the kind of person who stands up for themselves.
It doesn't matter how I feel anymore. It's about who I am and what a person like me does under these circumstances.
So, you know, Jordan Peterson, he, when he first came on the scene, he talked a lot about, and how I found Jordan Peterson was actually in a revival of my own faith. And I found he's got this incredible podcast series on Genesis.
It's like 17 episodes long. They're like an hour and a half to two hours a piece.
And I've listened to it three times. Now, now when he put that out, he started getting all these questions around, do you believe in God? Are you a Christian? You know, all these kinds of stuff.
Cause he was coming from a psychologist, a therapist standpoint, right? That he was breaking it down as more like a playbook for personal success than

really anything than religious, right? So kind of as if it were just a self-help book, like, here's how you would use these things. It's kind of, and he got all these questions.
And what he said was, it doesn't really matter whether I believe or consider myself a Christian. I act as if because these are what I believe to be quality principles to live your life.
My belief is less important than acting as if I am right. And I think that I think what I hear you saying, and I love the way that you're putting this together is like, if you're today, the type of person who's sitting there and you're frustrated with your salary or you're frustrated with your relationship, your spouse doesn't greet you.
Let's take a, what do guys want when they walk in the house, right? When they're married, they want to walk in. And the only thing you really want is for your wife just to turn you and go, hey, honey, how's your day? Or just, hey, wait, you know, just like simple acknowledgement of your existence when you walk in the door.
And there's nothing worse than when walk in the door and, and look, she's busy or whatever he's been, whatever your status is or whatever. Like that person is busy and you walk in the door and you've walked in the door a thousand times and they're like, you know, whatever.
But guys will be like, you know, I don't know how to talk to her about that. Well, that's a negotiation.
And it's almost like, can you act as if you're the person that's willing to have that conversation, even if internally your body's going nuts because it doesn't want to do it? Right. It's almost act as if.
And like your mind responds, your body responds. Like, is that kind of how you coach people? Is that how you teach people? Like, I'm so interested in this.
We need to understand how confidence works. Because like I said, I was a people pleaser.

Negotiation was my escape because it wasn't until I got to law school that I took a negotiation class and I learned it was a skill, not a talent. I could actually get better.
And so I was still scared every time I was going into these competitions because we had negotiation competitions. And I still did it because every time I did it, it was a vote of confidence for the man I ultimately want to become.
And so we, my partner and I, we won the competition at our law school. And then that gave us an opportunity to represent the school at the American Bar Association competition in Ottawa, Ontario.
And we won that too. And I did it all while scared.
It's like, I just got good at this, right? But what we have to do is if we act as if we are a confident negotiator, then we will take the actions that make us a confident negotiator. We often think that we need to feel confident to take action, but that's the opposite.
It's the opposite. We need to take action until we feel confident.
And so a couple of things that I like to do is I operate a lot of times on borrowed confidence. So I have a good network of mentors and friends and family members who support me.
And there might be something that I want to do that's big and I'll run it by them. And I'll let them know when I'm not feeling confident, where I'm feeling insecure.
And then if they have confidence in me, I have so much faith and confidence in them that if they can see it in me, I'll trust their judgment over me. So I'll operate off borrowed confidence.
And so the example that you gave is so powerful because for me, I don't think about negotiation in a transactional type of way. If I'm completely honest, the word negotiation is a branding device I use to get into companies because they trust that, right? But for me, when I think about negotiation, I just say a negotiation is anytime you're in a conversation and somebody in the conversation wants something.
That's why we say it's negotiate anything because we should be negotiating everything. I'm negotiating with my kids, with my wife, with my employees, my staff, with my clients all the time.
And so I'm not doing that so I can get one over on them. I'm doing that so I can improve the quality of the relationship, address problems, solve them collaboratively, and we get better together.
So to that example, if that person were to say, hey, listen, I don't feel the confidence,

but now after listening to this episode, I know I don't need to feel confident. I need to get an avatar for what success looks like in this situation.
And I'll say, what would a person like that do under these circumstances? Well, he would have that conversation, right? And I'm going to do it while I'm scared. But the more you start to do it, the more confident you will be in the future when you have to do it.
There's this idea, Michael A. Singer wrote about it in The Untethered Soul, it's in a bunch of other books, that essentially, if you believe, which I do, that you're not your mind or your body, you're this spirit inside of it, your mind and your body are these vessels keeping you alive, essentially.
That there's a lot of studies been done and I used to be able to quote the study and I just can't anymore, where literally your mind and your body do not know what the truth is. So if you tell your mind, like if you're you, not the voice in your head, but you, just I'm a confident person.
It's why aphorisms can work because you're literally just, you're telling your mind what to be. Like, you know, your mind might be like, if we get involved in this conversation, there could be conflict and conflict could live to a negative outcome, which could put me in a worse place.
So no, don't do it, right? That's what your mind's telling you. But if you're just coming back and you're like, no, we're confident and we're good at negotiation.
And we're going to do this. But because we're confident, because we know what we're talking about.
And your mind just will go, okay, I guess that's what we are now. It doesn't know the difference.
You just tell it what you are. And over time, it will just start to believe you.
And then, again, acting that way. And it can be that simple.
You know, I was about this the was about this the other day, like, you know, why it's cliche, but it's also true. Why do like sales guys before they walk in the meeting have like mega death or like Wu-Tang or whatever on, right? Like this, let's just like hard, like masculine, let's get after it kind of music.
It's the, it's simply just to frame your brain so that when you get out of the car to go walk in that meeting, you're feeling good. Your chest is up, your shoulders are back, right? Like you said, you're just programming, intentional programming.
It's nothing more than that. That's it, man.
And I think what we have to do is we have to recognize the power of intentional programming, right? We're being programmed all the time. Anytime you're receiving a message, it's an attempt to program you one way or another.
So we have to be intentional about reprogramming our minds, right? And so for me, before negotiation, a big negotiation, before I go on stage to deliver a keynote, I still feel the same nerves and fear that I did before. I just recognize that that's a necessary part of the process.
And I've learned to enjoy it because it's not going away. I might as well befriend it and recognize it's a signal I'm often on the right track.
And that bass, studies have showed that listening to really aggressive music with a lot of bass gives you a lot more confidence when it comes into a difficult conversation. So blast that music.
It is scientifically sound. It works.
And when we think about this, what is a belief? A belief is nothing more than a thought that we have thought a number of times and we've absorbed as our own. And so we still have the power to address those beliefs.

So in my first book, when I was talking about finding confidence in conflict, and I was walking through how I got confidence, I essentially turned myself into my own experiment.

My undergrad degree was in psychology.

And so what I said is, let me reverse engineer an approach specifically for difficult conversations.

So I treated it like a phobia.

So there's something called cognitive behavioral therapy. And at its roots, what you want to do is you want to identify problematic beliefs and thought patterns, and then replace them with more empowering beliefs or thought patterns.
So I call these helpful fictions. Whether or not it is true, I will choose to believe it because it's helpful for me.
So I say, going into any negotiation or conversation, no matter what the situation is, I believe that I have the skills to connect with and persuade anybody. No matter what the circumstances are, no matter who the other person is, I can still do it.
And is that always true? Probably not. But because I believe it, it makes it more likely to be true.
Because when you think about the reality of self-fulfilling prophecies, we don't recognize how frequently our disempowering beliefs that are also untrue guide the outcomes of our interactions, right? So if I go into this conversation and I say, man, you know, Ryan's a tough one. I don't know.
He's not probably not going to agree with me, but I'm still going, I should probably still have the conversation. And I come into the conversation and I'm like, well, Ryan, I got this product for you.
I wonder, it's like, no, no, the answer is no. Right.
And we don't recognize how much our own belief, our lack of belief had an impact on that. So it creates a self-fulfilling prophecy.

So understanding all of that, I create these helpful fictions to replace those negative thought patterns with precision. And you can't understand what those thought patterns are unless you go through that process of internal negotiation.
So we can understand really deeply what works for us, what doesn't work for us, and then empower ourselves to do what it takes to get the success that we want. What role does boundaries play in all of this? Because as I have gone through and I've talked about on the show before, I go see a counselor every other week.
I've done it for almost six years. Best advice I ever got from one of my mentors was, you know, go find a counselor, someone that you talk to that you like,

you know, that's going to help you and just make an appointment with them every other week for the rest of your life and can just consider it in a monthly expense, you know, and that's what I've done. And I'll tell you, it's, it's, it is, it is the single thing that I would not remove, you know, beyond the basics that I need to keep my, my family alive.
Like it is the single thing I wouldn't remove from my life.

And, you know, what I learned through that process was as a people pleaser as well, huge, huge. I would say I'm on the path.
I don't know that I'm fully recovered, but I'm certainly on the path. One of the things that we talked about all the time was boundaries and how not having boundaries makes it incredibly difficult to have conversations in which someone wants something because as a people pleaser, you tear down all your boundaries and you're just like, sure, whatever you want.
You know, here it is. You know, even though I don't have the time, don't have the mental energy or whatever, I'm just going to say yes because I have no boundaries around what I'm with.
So, like, what – how do we start to work with boundaries? What role do they play? Like, I'm very interested in how these fit into our ability to negotiate or conversate to an outcome. Yeah, I mean, good fences make good neighbors.
We have to have boundaries in all aspects of our life. Now, there are two things that we need to do.
First of all, we need to get clarity on what our boundaries are. A lot of times we allow people to infringe on our boundaries because we have not articulated them to ourselves.
So we're in a conversation, somebody asks for something, they're not trying to be pushy or they're infringed upon a boundary. They don't know that there's a boundary.
And unfortunately, you might not either. You got this weird feeling, but you can't identify what it is.
And then you commit too soon. And then you say, after the fact, you wake up with an emotional hangover where the feeling that made you make that decision is gone, but the decision is still there.
So you're stuck, right? So a couple tips here. First of all, as much as possible before conversations, try to figure out what boundaries might come into play.
So boundaries in terms of the time that I spend with my family, boundaries in terms of what my upper and lower limit are in terms of money, whatever the negotiation might be. I want to be very clear on what boundaries might be a factor in this conversation.
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You can have that clarity.

And then what I want to do is if there is somebody who is trying to encroach upon those boundaries, whether intentionally or unintentionally, I know how I'm going to say no. I frame that beforehand, so I don't need to try to find some cool way to say no.
I already know how I'm going to do it. Now, if you haven't done that work and you find yourself in a conversation, then what you do is you create space between you and the person when it comes to the decision that needs to be made.
So we're going to inject time between the request and the response. So especially for us as people pleasers, we have to recognize that people pleasing pressure will come about in the moment.
And we will think that we're going to think that we're thinking, but we're actually feeling through the decision, right?

So we're going to succumb to the pressure

and not make a rational thought about it.

And so what I would do is if somebody's asking me something

and they say, hey, Kwame, can you do this?

And I'm like, I feel that in my chest.

I'm like, I'm not 100% sure what I should do.

What I'll say is this.

Hey, thank you for asking.

Can you give me a little bit more detail

about what it is that you're asking for, right? So I'm going to gather information. I'm going to use it as an opportunity to gather the information I need to make a good decision.
And then I'll say, hey, listen, I appreciate the request and the insight here, too. Right now, I'm not in a position to make a decision, but let me get back to you either later tonight or tomorrow and I'll let you know.
now if they push to make a decision at that time then, then what I say is, if you need a decision right now, then the answer has to be no, right? And then people magically find a way to be patient in that situation, right? But for me, when I'm saying no, I like to use this really simple framework where it's a yes, no, yes framework. So the first yes is to what I'm actually committed to, the reason why I'm going to say no.
And then the second, the no is a very, very short, succinct no, because the longer your no goes, the easier it is for somebody to negotiate around it and try to find a way through it. And then at the end, it's a yes to the continuation of either the negotiation or for sure the relationship.
So let's do a simple example. So let's say somebody reaches out to me and like 30 minutes ago, they reach out and they say, hey, Kwame, can you hop on a call real quick? I wanna ask you something.
I'll say, hey, listen, actually, I'm gonna be hanging out with my buddy Ryan. So unfortunately, I have to say no, but let me know when another time is that could work for you.
Really smooth, really smooth, right? And so if you understand how to say no, like the mechanics of it, and then you can prepare and understand what your boundaries are, and you're willing to give yourself time between the request and the decision, those are really simple things you could do to really put your boundaries in place without damaging the relationship in the process. What role does like an abundance versus scarcity mindset play in our hesitancy to negotiate or say no.
It's a massive role, right? Because when you think about a lot of conflicts, whether it's just interpersonal or geopolitical, it is the competition for scarce resources. If we have a scarcity mindset, then we're going to see conflict everywhere because more for me means less for you and vice versa.
But for people who are negotiating, again, for me, I don't want you to think about it in terms of me versus you. It's you and me versus the problem to figure out how we can negotiate together and create a future that works for both of us.
That's the goal. But if I have this fixed pie mentality where I'm saying to myself, no, no, no, no, no, no, this is a tug of war.
More for this person means less for me. Then I'm not even able to be creative and collaborative in this situation.
And so we have to be able to expand our mind on what works for us, what is valuable to us, what helps us to move forward because the more paths to victory, the more likely we are to achieve a victory. If I can see multiple ways for me to find a better position through this conversation, then I can find ways that help me in a way that are not detrimental to you and vice versa, right? So having an abundance mentality is necessary.
And the thing is, I think when it comes to things like confidence, confidence is compartmentalized. When it comes to our mindset versus scarcity versus abundance, that's

compartmentalized too. You might have an abundance mentality in all other areas of your life,

but if you lack confidence in these difficult conversations and you have these negative biases

about conflict in general, or maybe the person you're talking to, then you're going to have a

scarcity mentality as it relates to this instance. And you might not even recognize that's the thing

that's holding you back. Yeah.
I see this a lot in early stage entrepreneurs that are still doing B2B business development, sorry, or sales individuals where the individuals who come at a negotiation for say a larger enterprise contract, et cetera, who have a scarcity mindset, it becomes combative. It become, or they cave to every demand of the customer because they're so, they're like, I'm never going to get another opportunity like this.
I have to figure out. So I'll just, you know, break my boundaries, you know, give into what they want, feel terrible about the deal, but I got the deal where those individuals who see the world and it's like, I'm going to have boundaries.
I'm going to use the techniques that we're going to talk about in a bit. And I'm going to work through this process.
And it's, I love this idea of it's me and you versus the problem, not me versus you. I love that framing.
I think that's wonderful, right? Those individuals who look at that from the abundance standpoint, have the ability to go, look, this is what I can do. This is how I'm able to deliver it.
And the price point that I'm able to deliver it at, how do we make this work?

Right.

And if they come back and they go,

it doesn't work,

then you're like,

okay,

maybe in the future we can have another opportunity,

right?

If you get through the process and it doesn't work and they'll move on to

the next one.

And that,

that scarcity mindset though,

if I don't get this one,

everything's going to fall apart.

And my,

you know,

they create all the,

they project all these negative scenarios out into the world.

They, those tend to be the people who really struggle with this kind of stuff. I agree.
I agree 100%. And again, that's why the negotiation has to begin within.
And one of the things that I like to do before a really tough one, especially if I feel more anxious before it, is I would put myself through a survivability test. So, you know, I call it focused catastrophizing because, you know, if you get anxious, you start overthinking and you're like, this could happen and then everything's going to fall apart.
Right. And so what I'll say is, okay, here it is.
List, write out every one of your fears, everything that you think might happen, like all of the paths to failure that are just coming to mind and plaguing your mind. Cool.
So what will end up happening is that you might see yourself cycling over these things for like minutes, hours, days, or sometimes weeks or months, right? And just going over and going over it. But then when you actually write it out, then you realize, actually, I've just been cycling through the same seven doomsday scenarios.
It's not that many bad things that could possibly happen. And then what I do is like all right pick one pick each of them and if that happens how will you find a way to be okay oh now that's interesting now it becomes a little bit fun because then i can say with each of these scenarios i can't there is a path to success not just survivability i could actually better.
There are, there's so many ways I can be fine. So it helps you to not feel as needy at the negotiation table, but it also sometimes sparks creativity.
And then the overthinking stops because now you can, you've controlled that process, that fear process. And now you've calmed down, you've quieted your amygdala to the point where you can actually think creatively and strategically and just doing that helps you shift to a more mindset of abundance because you can say oh yeah yeah yeah yeah no i'm good no matter how this ends up i will still be good you know and even like at the worst like the worst it could possibly be i sometimes i say well at least my wife and kids still love me you know i'll still be okay yeah the good news is 44 years into life there's always another opportunity that that's if i've learned anything through my life it's been you know that trite kind of cliche when one door closes another opens is a cliche for a reason it's 100 there yeah it may not always go the way you think or the way you want, but it's always, they always resurface as long as you're pushing forward.
Is there any public figures or, you know, politicians, leaders, et cetera, that you kind of, that you look to as like, man, that guy, that gal, the way she operates, the way he talks, the way they approach a situation, you know, they get things done. They get it done in a way.
Like, do you have any examples of that people may be able to relate to? Well, I think what would be more helpful is like picking on some, like some actors, you know, yeah, because I think that can be less triggering too, because for me, what I do is I say, all right, who's winning, who's doing well. And what are some attributes that I like to take? Because sometimes when we say, Oh, a oh a specific person then you kind of get locked in with that with all that those people so i like the presence of denzel i think he does a great way a job of like focusing on a person and having really powerful dignified presence no matter who it is that he's playing the role as.
Like he, think about back with Remember the Titans.

You know, you could just see him walk.

And even though he was dealing with a lot of racism,

there was the dignity.

Like people treated him differently

just because of the way he carried himself, right?

I think McConaughey does a great job

of connecting with people, right?

He's very warm.

And so I love the warmth of his ability

to just connect with somebody in that type of way. Any of the Bond characters have that style and charisma.
But I think also we have to give ourselves the latitude to recognize that whether it's a fictional character or a real person, we're always seeing an idealized version of themselves. And sometimes when we compare ourselves to these avatars, we actually can feel more disempowered and less confident because you're like, I'm not that smooth.

I can't deliver a line like that.

And one of the things that people need to recognize about negotiation, difficult conversations in general, is that you will certainly make mistakes.

It's not possible to have a perfect negotiation.

When I negotiate, I stumble over my words and things like that.

It happens.

And you will make mistakes and you can recover from those mistakes. I'm afraid and things like that.
It happens. And you will make mistakes

and you can recover from those mistakes. I'm afraid of offending somebody.
You will. You will.
And you can recover by utilizing the same skills. My mentor who taught me how to negotiate, who taught me how to mediate, he had a stutter.
He had a stutter, right? So he wasn't like giving an incredible like oratory display, but he's able to connect, empathize, persuade, and in his own way. So as many, as much as we want to emulate people and we can see elements of people that we can try to replicate in our own authentic way, we also have to recognize that no matter who you are, no matter what you look at, like no matter what your background is, there is a path to persuasive communication for you.
You are enough as you are. And sometimes we can idealize things to the point where we actually disempower ourselves, where we say, no, I'm not like that.
So I can't be successful. No, you are you and you can be successful.
I think people forget that we're all one of ones, you know, like, and what's interesting is when you see inside the actor's studio does a great job of this. When an actor comes in and sits on that stage and they're being interviewed and talking through their life, what I find very intriguing is who they often look to as inspirations sometimes are not people that you would necessarily assume that they would look to.
So it's like, you know, you could say, I can't do it. I can't be relatable like McConaughey or I don't have the poise and kind of dignified response and tone of voice that Denzel has.
And I'll never have. Yeah, maybe you won't.
You might be funny. You might be able to find nuance other people can't.
You might have a voice inflection, which is inviting in a way that is dissimilar from McConaughey, but equally as engaging. And it's like what I hear you saying is, you know, maybe mimic at first to a point.
But ultimately, we have to find the style that allows us to be the most confident in the moment. Is that correct? 100%.
That's it. That's why I like to focus more on general principles than specifics.
Because I recognize that when it comes to communication, conflict resolution, negotiation, sales, whatever it happens to be, a lot of times what the author does is they start to codify their own personality. So they're not saying this is what works in general.
They're saying this is what works for me, but framing it in terms of this is what works in general. Right? So let me give an example.
So I was talking to one of the guys on my podcast. He was a Stanford professor.
And, but he also interestingly was about six foot six. And so he, he was just made an offhanded comment.
He was saying, you know, I'm, there was only one time in my adult life that I, I felt small and I was courtside at a heat versus Knicks game. And I saw Patrick Ewing and I was like, I feel tiny.
And I said, out of curiosity, what impact do you think your size has in how people respond to you? He said, I never thought about that. And now think about on the other side, one of my friends is Alex Carter.
She has a really great book on negotiation. And she wrote a post one time.
She said, when I enter a boardroom, nobody sees me coming. No, seriously, I'm very small.
They don't see me coming. Right.
And she was talking about how her presence is different. And so what we have to do is we need to recognize that, hey, listen, when we get negotiation advice, we should understand what the underlying principle is, right? So what are we trying to accomplish? What are we trying to accomplish with the things that we're saying and the way that we're saying it, right? Because the way that it works for somebody else might not work for that other person or it might not work for you.
And so that's why we have to have this, this playful experimentation mindset where we're saying, okay, I'm going to try this out, see how the world responds to me, because you need to figure out what your authentic self is within these difficult conversations, because it is 100% sure that it's going to be different from you and it's going to be different from somebody else. And it's going to be different from me.
So we have to just embrace our authenticity and find what works for us. Yeah.
It's funny. So I'm six foot four and I can tell you that everyone, I get to comment all the time like, oh, it must be nice to be tall.
When you're over a certain height, people just want to comment on your height all the time, which I get constantly, which is fine. You know, it's fine.
But there's always this implied idea that somehow being tall is this competitive advantage. And I'm sure there are aspects to it where it is.
It also creates a lot of issues in relating to people because they have to look up at you. No one wants to look up.
Right. It makes them feel small.
Um, you, you are the first person everyone's. I always tell people like being tall is good, but except like when you're in a bar or a conference, because you stand out above the crowd and everyone makes eye contact with you and you get all this random, awkward eye contact.
And I'm like, I'm always like trying to like slump down a little bit because you're just like thousand people just random eye contact everywhere

because you're the one head above the crowd.

But my point in saying that is I've had to develop mechanisms both in the way I stand,

how I approach people because I don't want them to feel like they're in a position of weakness

simply because I'm tall because that immediately puts them on the defensive or they become more introverted or they're less likely to, you know, be open. And so I've developed things like I'll lean against the wall or I'll, if I'm at, if I'm in a conference setting, I'll try to find a chair or a seat or something that I can kind of lean on or rest on just to bring my eye level down a few inches so that now that person sees me at eye level and we can have a much more, um, it feels like we're on even ground versus them looking up at me.
And that immediately creates a dynamic and it's, there's so much to what you're saying and how you have to, and coming back to this idea that we haven't talked about yet. And then, and I do want to get tactical and talk about your framework next, but it's almost like every time we go into one of these conversations, be they business-oriented or otherwise, we have to go in almost with a wide-open sense of awareness of the situation, of the other individuals, of their body language, of how you're presenting yourself.
because it's not just the things you say. It's everything that you do and how you present yourself.

Is that, you know what I mean? Like that's a, that's a tough thing. 100%.
And this is a perfect example, Ryan, a perfect example, because there are no absolutes in this, right? So you could say, okay, well, look at the studies. The average CEO is six foot two, but the average man is five foot nine and we're including women in six foot two.
So even the women are abnormally tall as CEO. So therefore it is good to be tall, right? That doesn't tell the whole story, right? So we have to understand that the world will respond to us differently because of who we are, whatever it happens to be.
You know, sometimes it's good. Sometimes it's bad.
Sometimes it's fair. Sometimes it's unfair.
But what you need to do is understand what that is and then adjust yourself to get the outcomes that you want. Because instead of saying, well, it's unfair that people feel intimidated by me.
I'm such a nice guy. That doesn't matter.
Right. What does matter is what you need to do in order to get the outcome that you want.
That's a great example, man. Let's get into your framework.
Let's get a little tactical. Talk me through, you know, I come to you and, you know, I'm struggling.
I have some, you know, negotiation is part of my job. Maybe I'm not able to communicate with my spouse properly or my partner.
Like, and I just feel like this is a skill I have not learned. How do you start to take me down the path and how do I work through this to start becoming a better negotiator? Yes.
Okay, man. So this is exciting.
And let me know. I'm down for this.
If you want to create a scenario based on the demographics of your listeners and we want to do a role play, we can do that too to keep it real as well. So it's called the Compassionate Curiosity Framework.
So let's bring in two quotes, then I'll break it down. So one quote, Leonardo da Vinci says, simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.
And so what you'll see here is that I have spent years simplifying this so people would actually use it. Because a lot of times you have somebody who's a negotiation expert coming in and they'll talk about all these different tactics, but under duress, people aren't going to remember them and put them into practice.
So I give people one thing, and then I help them to understand how to use it. And then the next thing is Bruce Lee's quote.
I don't fear the man who knows 10,000 kicks. I fear the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks.
I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times. And compassionate curiosity is your nonviolent compassionate kick that you'll use in your conversation.
So let's break it down. So step one is acknowledge and validate the emotions and beliefs and conclusions of the other side.
So we're acknowledging and validating. Then number two is getting curious with compassion, asking open-ended questions with a compassionate tone to gather information, build rapport, build trust, and empathize.
And then number three is using joint problem solving. So again, it's not me versus you, it's you and me versus the problem.
We're using future-focused problem solving to figure out what our relationship or the deal looks like going into the future, right? So if there's any element of emotionality or I feel like the person isn't feeling heard, then I'm going to use step one, acknowledge and validate the emotions. Hey, it sounds like this has been, had a significant impact on you.
Or I can tell that this is something you really care about. Or correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like this has been a really frustrating situation.
Whatever it is, I'm going to label the emotion because it'll lower the emotional temperature of the room. Then when I feel like we've gotten to a point where emotions are manageable, then I'm going to get curious with compassion to gather information.
Then when I have enough information and everybody's at a place where emotions are manageable, then we're just going to work together and figure it out. And so sometimes you might be in the...
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Problem solving phase, and then somebody gets emotional. Then we just cycle back to number one.
So it's a flexible framework that helps you to understand what to say and when to say for maximum impact. Wow.
I love that. I think, you know, I know for myself, I'm way more willing to give when I feel like the other person understands.
They may not, they don't have to agree, but at least understands where I'm coming from. I know I immediately open up in those scenarios.
Yeah. And and so that that part makes complete sense you know that and could that also be like what I'm hearing you say is this is that accurate kind of like a almost like a reframe and acknowledgement kind of thing like this is what I'm getting and then they can tell you no that that's not actually it but you're at least what you're trying if I you, Craig, what you're trying to do is just help them feel understood.
Like, like, like, you know what they're actually about or what they're actually trying to do. Exactly.
Because if you don't make them feel understood, then they're going to spend the rest of the conversation trying to make you feel understood on whatever that point happens to be. Right.
So that's why ignoring emotions is so problematic. If I see that you're struggling emotionally or you're feeling something and I pretend like it's not there, then in your mind, you're going to be like, he doesn't get it.
I'm going to turn the volume up and it makes things worse, right? So you're just paying the person the respect to say, hey, listen, I see you. And we have to remember, acknowledgement does not mean endorsement.
It's highly likely that you don't agree with what they're saying. And so when you're summarizing, I would just say, hey, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like from your perspective, your frustration comes from this and this.
So I'll show that I understand. I might not agree, but like you said so many times, just showing that you understand is enough.
And if you're really disciplined with this, Ryan, you can find that a lot of our conflicts are just issues of understanding and respect. Sometimes the person doesn't even want you to do something.
They just want to feel heard. And then we try to problem solve or we tell them that they're wrong.
And now we get in this unnecessarily unproductive conversation. For so many conversations, if you just stick with labeling, acknowledging and validating emotions and getting curious, sometimes the problem just magically disappears.
And so that's why I tell people again, at home, I'm using this at work with my team. I'm using this when I'm negotiating for like big deals for the American Negotiation Institute.
I'm doing this back as a lawyer. I was doing it.
And for me as a mediator, too, I was doing this, too. We just adjust how it sounds and what we how we approach it based on the circumstances.
That's it. And so even at the highest level of business, this will get you through 90 to 95% of your toughest negotiations.
And then when you need something a little bit extra, you sprinkle that on top of compassionate curiosity. Because a lot of times people might say, well, I use this sales tactic.
It didn't work. I use this negotiation tactic.
It didn't work. It's because you didn't take the time to create the conditions for persuasion.
The person is still triggered. They don't feel understood.
You didn't listen to them to you. So you're trying to solve the wrong problem.
And you wonder why the tactic doesn't work. If you just start here, this solves the majority of your problems.
Guys, stop right now. If you't pick up on what Kwame just said and rewind like 30 seconds.
Because I think you just hit on one of the core issues that so many people, they jump right into solving the problem versus even understanding. And I'll give you just a quick example.
At my previous startup that I had, our biggest client made this huge deal out of something that my service team thought was a tiny little deal, right? And, you know, there's all this back and forth and this big email train and finally, and then all of a sudden I get, hey, hey, you know, hey, Ryan, we got this problem. Can you jump in? Right.
So now I'm CEO, I jump in and I get on the phone with the guy and I was like, so what I've taken so far is you're, you know, what I'm, you know, you're upset about the way that this situation was handled. And he did a little thing and I said, okay, so what I, what I'm hearing is you want this, this COI practice built kind of custom, particular insurance, it was an insurance business, sorry, built kind of custom for you.
Right. And and I saw like once once I had like kind of framed that I understood the problem for him.

He literally. It was an insurance business.
Sorry. Built kind of custom for you.
Right. And I saw like once I had like kind of framed that I understood the problem for him, he literally came back to me and he goes, you know what? I'm just glad you called.
It's really not that big a deal. We're good, man.
And the call was over. It was over in like 10 minutes.
And we didn't have to do any additional work. We didn't have to change anything.
There was a mistake on my team that they made that we fixed. Right.
And whatever. And he really just wanted me to know that this problem happened.
And he really didn't want that problem to happen again. That was all he wanted me to know.
And if I had gone, I could have come in and been like, look, we're going to create this custom process for you and blah, blah, whatever. A ton of work for us.
And it wasn't even what he really wanted. Right.
Like that was, you know, so so it's just this guys this is freaking important to understand the person that you're on the other side with i mean just understand again going back to like the personal side understand your kids understand your spouse and most of the problems will go away i want to dig into the curiosity part because i think i think that part is where i know i sometimes will fumble like how do we when we're when we're asking one, I think open-ended questions are, tend to be a problem. A lot of sales tactics.
Like if I, somebody goes out and buys some $97 course, it's all just like, ask this question and this question. And a lot of them tend to be like closed questions, information gathering stuff, like maybe break down what an open-ended question is and how do we position that in this kind of curiosity framework that you're talking about? Yeah.
So a couple of things. Let's first break down why it's so hard to do because it sounds super easy.
Like, oh, ask a question. Okay, I got that.
So the reason I called it the compassionate curiosity framework was because I want that to just be in your mind about your tone. because for me as a lawyer, lawyers are taught to ask questions, but cross examinations sound very different, right? The people don't feel comfortable.
They don't feel vulnerable. They don't feel psychological safety.
So they're not going to share information. So the tone that we bring, the energy that we bring to the conversation is very important.
And then a lot of times people, especially who are in sales or trying to get something done in the business world, they'll ask questions, but they don't ask questions with true humility. They ask questions that are overly strategic where the person says, this is clearly a trap, right? Imagine if you're walking through the mall and somebody with a clipboard, bro, anytime you see a clipboard, just right.
Somebody with a clipboard, sir, I've got a couple of questions. So how are you today? Great.
so tell me about your insurance service okay great you know it's like i i see this as a trap man yeah i see this as a trap and and so for me what i do with this whole framework my goal is to follow the 70 30 rule where i'm getting the other side to speak 70 of the time i'm only speaking 30 of the time makes gather more information. They feel liked, appreciated, respected, and validated, which makes them trust me more, which makes them share more information.
It makes them more persuadable. It makes everything easier and you're less likely to make a mistake.
So I like to ask questions in the framework of the funnel technique. So I'll ask very broad and general questions at the very beginning.
So like when I was a mediator, I would say, so tell me how we got here. I read the case file.
They might have been litigating for 18 months, but I want to hear how you say it from your own words. Go wherever you want to go.
Right. And then I'll get more precise with my questions as I go throughout the funnel.
And so this might still seem like, well, how do I, how do I know what the follow-up question is? You don't, you have to make a read. So I pay attention to five things.
It's pace, tone, repetition, and body language. And I forget the other one.
But pace, tone, repetition, and body language are the main things. Volume.
Volume. I'm going to pay attention to deviations.
So if the person is talking at this pace, but then all of a sudden they slowed down at that point, I don't know what that meant, but it means something. My next question comes there, right? Or they're talking like this, showing their hands all the time.
And then they talk about this one issue and then they cross their hands and lean back. That meant something too.
So we get more precise with the questions that we ask and we allow them to let us figure out what is most important. We're not going to try to force them into a specific direction toward the end of the funnel.
Now we can ask questions that are a little bit more geared toward persuasion, but we have to earn our right there. A lot of times the biggest mistake people make is that they try to persuade too soon.
But for me, I want to approach this conversation in a way where somebody doesn't say, man, Kwame's a wizard here. He convinced me.
He persuaded me. No, no, no, no, no.
I want people to say, hey, I had a conversation with Kwame, and then I made a decision. Or I had a conversation with Kwame, and then I changed my mind.
I want them to own it. And so you just give them space to share, but it cannot be too calculated.
Then it just doesn't feel right. Yeah, you can't change people's mind no they have to change their own mind you can help them get there but there's no changing someone's mind like you you just you're not going to do that like they it's their decision on whether they change their mind or not there's there's no you know to your point you know i i love these quite you know like, they'll present some amazing life scenario, right? Like what if all your wildest dreams come true and money rained down from the sky and you know, you had this amazing house and car and you know, is that a life you would want? And you're like, you're like, I mean, I would be an idiot if I said no.
So, but I don't, you know, now I feel like a jerk because you're obviously taking me down a path. Like that's not going to get me to change my mind because you said it feels boxed in.
I used to teach my sales team this idea, which I found was the hardest aspect of sales that to teach someone, which was silence as a weapon. I was like, guys, silent.
Like I was like, shut the up, like, stop talking stop talking. Like, because, you know, for two reasons.
One, if I'm just peppering you in the head in a sales call with my features and my benefits and all the things I can do and all the solutions I think you should have and blah, blah, blah, and my background and my expertise and how many products I have or whatever. Like, the other person is just waiting for you to finish.
They're like, I'm the one buying here. Like, you know what? what? And the other part is psychologically, and you can push back on this if it isn't true.
But from what I've read, if there's silence, someone's going to fill it. It is very awkward to sit in silence.
So if you can ask a succinct, thoughtful, open-ended question, and then just be quiet, don't give context, don't give all this, just, just ask the question and be quiet. They will fill it and give you things that you didn't think you could otherwise even get out of them just by being quiet.
100%, man. And I think a lot of times it's the, again, it goes back to discipline.
You have to learn how to become comfortable in that situation or accept it because you need to know what's happening. And I think when people understand what's happening beneath the surface, it makes them feel a little bit more comfortable letting that ride.
So in my keynotes, one of the things I would ask them to do, and I would say, listen, if you actually know the answer, you can't play this game. Okay.
So I'd say, okay, when did Abraham Lincoln die? And so I'll look in the audience and people would look around and then I'd get a guess. Right.
And so I said, think so you're in your mind you're saying well all of this started in 1776 he wasn't the first when he was like 20 16 right okay so they did was maybe sometime in the mid 1800s what's happening we're thinking we're thinking if i interrupt you you might still be in the early 1800s right and so when you ask a question the person can't but answer it in their mind. They're thinking about how to articulate it to you.
And so you need to let your question do the work. You're undermining your own work, right? It's like cleaning up a mess and then just making the same mess over it.
Because sometimes we have to just let that ride and we let them off the hook because I'll give an example.

What I do, I turn it into a meditation because sometimes it can be awkward. So I remember I was a mediator in this really tough situation and this person was retaliated against somebody who did something wrong to him.
So he thought, but it turned out the first person didn't do anything wrong. So he just attacked.
So he was realizing, oh, no, I'm the bad guy in this situation. So I set it up, brought the information and everything.
And then I asked him a question. And he sat back and he thought and he thought and he thought.
And I counted and I counted to 43 seconds, Ryan, 43 seconds of silence. And what was happening? I call it turning the Titanic.
When your mind has been operating in a very specific way the whole time, you're heading to an iceberg, but you are hell bent on hitting that iceberg. And it takes a long time for that big ship to change.
And so sometimes it can be a very awkward amount of time, but you led that ride, and then he changed his mind, right? He changed his mind. I didn't do it.
And so we undermine all of our good work by not letting that silence ride. Another sales cliche is when you've struck oil, stop digging.
And I find that so many people will blow sales or blow meetings or negotiations because they don't realize they've already gotten what they want. So how do we know that we've gotten, we've hit a resolution point? How do we know, like, we're not going any further, right? Like, this is the moment where we kind of, it's either this, or we're not moving forward, right? Like, how do we find that moment and kind of, quote, unquote, close that deal, you know, using business parlance? Yeah, well, I think a couple of things.
First, again, we have to start inside and figure out what it is that leads us to oversell in our previous situations. Right.
There might be some kind of insecurity. Right.
In this conversation, I might not have fully articulated how awesome I am to the other person. And so it might be ego driven.
It's like, wait, I haven't proven to you how well I know the product. I know it so well.
I need to sell you on those things. Right.
And so whatever it is, different people have different reasons for manifesting that

behavior. That's the first thing.
And I think we have to have clarity on what we need to get to

in order to get the outcome that we want. And a lot of times it's a lot less than our emotions

would lead us to get. Right.
So I'll give an example too. With me and my wife, and we've

been married for 14 years, I realized that for me, I want us to be aligned on every single issue. And so I'll go back to conversations, not necessarily because I'm mad or anything, but I'll be like, hey, you still think this, and I still think this.
How can we get on the same page? And in her mind, she's like, we're done with this. The problem had been solved.
And so I realized that those situations, oh, this is still a little bit of the lawyer in me needing to still be right on issues that are irrelevant here. And so, Ryan, what I figured out is like in those moments, I just need to journal.
I just need to talk to myself and figure it out. And so we need to understand what enough is.
What is enough? And then when we believe that we've gotten there, then we need to transition into next steps. So the negotiation shifts because a lot of times in sales, our goal is to generate interest.
Interest has been generated. We understand that we're going to move forward.
Now with negotiation, we might still need to negotiate the details. So I'll say, okay, let's talk about next steps.
So what would be a good time? Or we could use the assumptive close. So would Friday be a good time for us to get this signed? Whatever it happens to be.
But we have to transition into that future portion. And that's why step three is so important.
Like I said, it's future focused problem solving. Because if I stay in the now, I might navigate this conversation in a way that just satisfies my emotional needs right now.
I might be focusing more on my ego than the outcome. So we have to focus on the future and figure out what our next steps are.
Kwame, dude, I could talk to you all day, man. You got an open invitation to come back whenever you want.
This is phenomenal. I could go all day.
I appreciate the hell out of you. This is such an important topic and I love the podcast, Negotiate Anything.
I love that you've taken it out of, so many, I think, of the people in your space tend to focus on us on sales or business, which is incredibly important. Don't get me wrong, but man, every interaction is in some way, a negotiation or so many of the interactions we have in the day and being able to, I think part of entrenching that confidence in us is throughout the day, feeling like we get to outcomes that we can live with that are enough and not feeling like we're getting stepped on.
And this is such a huge part of that. So for people who want to go deeper into your world, where can they find you? Where can they find the podcast? Where do you want them to go from from this conversation? Hey, man, thank you.
I appreciate it. That means a lot to me.
And yet we're on every social media platform. So we're YouTube podcast.
You can get negotiate anything there. Follow me on LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter.
We

will get TikTok as well. I will bite the bullet on that.
But yeah, just follow us. We want to

share as much as we can. And then if you ever need consulting or you're looking for a training

keynote, that's also what we do as well. Incredible, man.
Appreciate the hell out of

you. Wish you nothing but the best.
And I look forward to the next time we chat likewise brother thank you appreciate it

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Use your Venmo balance to pay for the things you love to do.

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The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A.

Pursuant to license by MasterCard International Incorporated.

Terms apply. Dosh Cashback Terms apply.