237. From GloveBox to Marshberry FirstChoice: The Andy Mathisen Story

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In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the show.

Today we have an absolutely tremendous episode for you,

a conversation with Andy Matheson,

former co-founder of Glovebox and now regional sales director for First Choice,

which is a Marshberry company.

And I wanted to have Andy on

because Andy worked for more than six years in a family-owned independent agency, Colorado Insurance. He then found this incredible startup, Glovebox, which I'm sure many of you have heard about.
And for a whole bunch of reasons, which Andy talks about, he now has left Glovebox and become working with Marshberry First Choice as a regional sales director, helping agencies across the country grow and develop. And, you know, that type of move is a move that I think many would struggle with.
I think many would worry what maybe the perception of that move is. And Andy had to make this move for a lot of

reasons. And those reasons are his.
And I think they're important. And I think we all struggle at different times with how our professional life impacts our personal life.
And I think that kind of the Andy Matheson story, which is obviously the title of this episode, is a wonderful display of a thought process on how to make the right decision for yourself and for your family and how to prioritize meaning and happiness over public perception necessarily. I think Andy's an incredible guy.
I always love talking to him.

And I think you're going to love this episode, which is episode number 237. Guys, I love you for listening to this show.
As I've mentioned many times every week, our show is growing and we have more and more subscribers, more and more listens, more and more downloads, more and more watches or whatever you call them on youtube and you know it's just such a pleasure to bring you these conversations and whether it's the solo episodes that i do where i try to put you know a new you kind of reframed or contrarian or just you know some sort of idea in front of you that you can consider and think through and just question some of the norms in our industry in a way that hopefully, some of which you can apply, some of which you can toss that into the garbage. I mean, that's the point.
Not every idea works for everybody. And then these incredible conversations that I have with people like Andy who are so willing to come on and share their time and their story and their expertise and their experience.
It's a very meaningful process and I just couldn't thank you more for being part of it. Even if you're just a listener one-off and you decide not to subscribe and not to be part of the community in a deeper way, I just appreciate you for taking the time to consider the thoughts that are shared and hopefully in some way they add value to you.
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And it's a wonderful place to capture thoughts, capture ideas. And if you want to go even farther down the rabbit hole, go to masterclass.insure.
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So masterclass.insure gets you there. But with all that said, I appreciate you.
I love you. And let's get on to Andy Matheson.
Good to see you. Yeah, good to see you too, bud.

What's the haps, man?

What's going down?

Depends on the moment.

Obviously, I'm moving target with all the new stuff going on for me,

but it's been outstanding.

I mean, I'm in a very comfortable place now, and I'll be honest, my stress level went from way up here to way down here for the first time in like seven years. So it feels good.
It feels good. Needed that.
Yeah, I get it. You know.
You get it. You do.
Yeah, I do. It's, you know, it's funny.
I was talking to you. I have a mentorship call every other week with a very good friend of mine.
And we're kind of accountability partners in the different things that we're trying to do in our lives. And it was funny.
I was talking to I have a I have a mentorship call every other week with a very good friend of mine and we're kind of accountability partners and the different things that we're trying to do in our lives and uh and it's funny I was sharing a story with him um about you know just just how how much stress and anxiety will allow us like we'll we'll we'll believe anything our mind or our body tell us when we're stressed or anxious right like when you when you're when you're in a good place and you're feeling good and you're feeling motivated your mind your your body can be like i'm tired you're like you body or your mind can be like oh you need to have another drink or you need to be like no you like i'm good like i'm crushing i'm going and then you hit a of anxiety and stress. And all of a sudden your mind is like, hey man, like why don't you have like three glasses of whiskey tonight? Or why don't you not go to the gym today? And your body's like, oh, I'm kind of tired.
Sleep in. And you're like, sure.
You just say yes to all of it. You fall into a lot of traps.
Yeah. And then all of a sudden you wake up when you start that, for whatever reason, that stress or anxiety, like you get a little window, like a window will open.
And you look and you go, what am I freaking doing? Dude, I had so many of those cycles, so many of those cycles for the past – like from 2022 to end of 23, it was just constant. And it became so obvious that my brother and I had to have a heart-to-heart, and it was like, dude, not that you're not bringing value to Glovebox, but we need to understand where your head's at because this in-and-out approach of being here, being gone, being here, being gone is draining to the company, and it sucks for you.
And I felt it i felt it worse than than he did it was like i know that's happening and that sucks and that's not what we set out to do and like a dude i i think i kind of most people know by now but it's like single dad stressed as fuck can't lead a team anymore because i'm always constantly being torn on every angle of my life and it was just weighing on me so I had to make the right choice for the company and for myself and I'm so thankful that I'm in this in this seat right now it feels a lot better so dude I'm one I'm happy for you I am and I know you don't need this but I'm very proud of you for making this decision you know also single dad also having gone also having gone through a lot of shit, you know, like I completely feel you. And, you know, it's funny, since I started Spiny Peak, the coaching and consulting company that is now what I do, dude, the number of people that have reached out to me on the side and said, bro, you know, what's this? Just another thing you're going to do for like six months, or you always do this.
You're always changing. You know, you've never committed to any, like, dude, the freaking people that come out of the woodwork and like question your decisions question.
And I'm like, and, and, you know, it took me, took me a second. Right.
Cause, cause I was like taken back. And then actually, you know, I called, I called Jason Cass who, you know, he's been probably my oldest friend in the industry.

And, you know, I just said, dude, you know, I just was sharing with him my struggles, as I'm sure, you know, you share with your brother or whoever else. You know, when you're just like, you know, I'm just like, dude, like, you know, I don't understand why.

I don't understand why.

All of. You know, I'm just like, dude, like, you know, I don't understand why.
I don't understand why. All I've ever wanted to do, and I know this about you, it's why you and me are friends, it's why I connect with you, like, all you want to do is add value, build things, you know, help people, lead people, like, like, this is what you're trying to do with your life.
And life throws these curveballs at you, and you just have to make tough decisions. And that's kind of what I want to get back to with you.
But like the lack of empathy or lack of understanding or just complete callousness that people will have to – I have to make a life decision that like isn't on some linear path, linear expected path that you might think is the right way to go based on what I was doing previously. But like, it's also like the real world.
And being able to get through that is a superpower. And I'm sure you've gotten some of it.
And that's what I'm really interested in, I guess at the beginning here is like, I'm sure you've gotten both sides of it, right? Like, hey man, so happy for you. Glad you're in a place you're, you're killing it.
And, and then the other side is like, dude, how could you leave this company? I'm sure you've got both like, how do you deal with that? Just yesterday. Yeah.
Yeah. How do you deal with that? That's really interesting.
Uh, the empathy piece is really interesting because typically people hear things, doesn't matter what the topic is. And they have an immediate opinion.
Doesn't matter what, like, putting yourself in someone else's shoes, it's like, oh, how could they possibly, how could they possibly do A, B, or C? For me, I always try and give the benefit of the doubt that they didn't consider what people actually go through on a daily basis, and so I'm typically, like, first, my first reaction now, because I'm calloused as well, is like, okay, they just don't get it, It's fine. The false narratives are all over the place, and I have to be okay with the reality that people are going to think what they're going to think.
I don't have to recreate the narrative. I don't necessarily need to even tell my story.
However, I want to. Yeah, yeah.
And there's a lot of things that happened in the past 24 months that have been entertaining. Interesting to get a different perspective on.
Have some insight into what other people do that I've never realized before. And at the end of the day, that has made me a very well-rounded expert in the industry.
And so going back to your original question, it just gives me an opportunity to get in front of more people, talk about more things. These are icebreakers, man.
These are just icebreakers because now we lead into other things together. So I've just taken it as opportunities, man.
That's really all it comes down to. I'm not going to control what other people think, but I will turn it into an opportunity so you know man uh a good buddy of

mine um someone i've known for a while obby knight said to me the other day uh dogs don't park it dogs don't bark at parked cars so how i've always wrapped my head around this uh you know i take a lot of shit and i deserve some of it because i'm very open and honest with my opinions. And a lot of my opinions are contrarian.
And so I, I deserve to have people push back on me and it's part of the job. So I totally, but sometimes people will say things and it'll get under your skin a little bit, even though, you know, I don't care how, and I've heard, like, it was funny.
I heard Tony Robbins on a clip the other day talking about this. And I'm like, oh my God, I'm so glad I heard this because of Tony Rob, if people can still get under Tony Robbins's skin, that's going to feel so bad when people get under mine.
So like, you know, so, you know, and, and I just had to say myself and it was funny, uh, I'll be, I, you know, I was sharing this with him. I was like, you know, I've caught, you know, I don't want to tell the rogue story anymore.
It is what it is. And I'll, you know, all the details will never get out.
Right. And for both legal reasons and because I don't think it's necessary for people to know.
I think everybody in that situation made what they thought was the next best decision. And it just, it is what it is.
But I have caught a sign sign i have gotten a significant amount of blowback from people about it and i was sharing that with obby and when he said he he just said you know kind of off the cuff and obby's a great dude um uh for those that don't know he's the executive director of the big eye uh of north carolina and uh he just said dude, don't park and park cars. And I was like, what exactly? Right? Like you, you're a guy who, when people meet, they know you, they see you, you have energy, you're thoughtful, you understand the industry, you have experience in the industry.
And I think that the key is for as much as you may or may not need to hear this, if you hadn't built a reputation

and people didn't see you as someone withstanding,

they wouldn't say shit to you.

You know what I mean?

It would go, the move would go unnoticed.

But the fact that people are noticing it,

both positive and negative,

speaks to the impact that you've had

even at a relatively young age.

Yeah, it's kind of a similar quote

to the lion doesn't concern himself

Thank you. speaks to the impact that you've had even at a relatively young age.
Yeah, it's kind of a similar quote to the lion doesn't concern himself

with the opinions of a sheep kind of thing in a similar vein.

But it comes with a respect factor.

So well said, well said.

I can appreciate that.

So you said you had a story you wanted to tell it.

Let's hear what parts you can go into detail or not, or maybe just lessons you've learned, things you've seen. I'm just interested in your perspective.
And then I want to hear more about, you know, what you're doing, smart choice, et cetera. I want to get into that as well.
But I'd love to spend a little bit of time just on, and the reason I'm so interested in this and I don't want to over-index on it. It's not just because I've been through it, although I feel like I have a master's degree and having my life upside down.
I think there are a lot of people who go through life and they're so nervous about a big change like this, right? Maybe they're sitting in a job that they don't like or isn't fulfilling them or they're not making enough money or whatever the issue is, right? Whatever their particular thing is. And I think a lot of people allow others' potential perspective or opinion on a move.
Stop them from doing what's best for them and best for their family. And obviously, you have made a fairly large transition to do what's best for you and for your family.

And I'm interested in what takeaways you have from that so far, what lessons, what thought process, et cetera, you've picked up during this time. Really good setting of the stage because for those that don't know, it's very clear and obvious now.
Like single dad, had a tough separation, divorce. but it will allow me to kind of look at things differently as far as how I'm going to handle my business, how I'm going to want to raise my kids, and honestly, how I want to treat people because of the empathy thing.
So that's kind of the side, the back burner there. But what I'm going to get at too is like when we were at our agency and from 2012 to 2019, things were honestly pretty comfy.
I had, I was single for half of that. I got married on the second half of that piece of the agency career.
But when I would come home to a support system that allowed me to do things really well at my agency, it made life very easy. Things couldn't have been easier when I was at my agency because we had our operations in place, our staff in place.
I could come in, do my job, come home, have a great life. We sold our agency in 2019.
We had an influx of cash that we reinvested into Glovebox. When we did that, we actually had no paycheck for 18 months.
We were paying our company instead of our company paying us. Very odd concept right there.
So that's a perspective in and of itself. It changes the way you go about your daily life, what your spending habits are, how you start a family.
And that's what I was doing. I was starting a family, starting a company the exact same time.
We can go into detail about what I saw at Glovebox, but really what I was going to get out here is that that trajectory of my career has had bumps and bruises because of my support system at home.

Long story short, when you go through trials and tribulations in any phase of your career, you've got to have some sort of a grounding. And my grounding was my family, my friends, my colleagues, my business partners, my referral partners, etc.
Conversation, insight, knowledge, advice, take it all. It's like reading books all day every day, but you're doing it with real life scenarios with real people.
And I was doing that throughout the time at the agency, the startup company, and now here at what I do now. And to kind of come to conclusion on this, this topic here, it only makes sense when you can grasp what everyone is doing and you have to turn it into like reality for yourself, meaning put it in perspective, everything is perspective.
And now I can look at myself, honestly, look at myself in the mirror and say, I'm doing well. Everything I'm going to do going forward is based on my experiences and how hard it's been challenges.
And it's honestly, it's going to be okay. It's never as bad as, as good as it seems.
It's never as bad as it seems. And that's kind of where I've been getting at with all this, a comfy lifestyle at the agency, stressful times at the startup company for capital, um, turning it into a successful, uh, company moving on and doing what I'm doing now.

So kind of a long version for that answer there.

No, no, I love it, man.

And I'll give the audience, and if you haven't read this book, I recommend this too, The Gap

and the Gain by Benjamin Hardy.

He wrote a book in partnership with Dan Sullivan.

It's a strategic coach original idea.

So Dan Sullivan's strategic coach is where this idea came from. And then Ben Hardy worked with Dan Sullivan to turn it into a book.
The concept is very simple. The book is a good quick read.
There's some depth to it, but the top level concept is very simple. And I explained it on the show a couple of weeks ago, but I will again, because I can't, there's sometimes these concepts hit you and I feel like they're, they're, they're first principle ideas.
And I just can't help, but continue to bring them up. Basically we have where we started and we have our ideal.
Right. And I think, I think the misconception, when we logically think about this, I think what I'm about to say makes complete sense, but emotionally are, I think most of us emotionally assume that we're going to go start to ideal in this linear line over some period of time and everything will just work out and everything will be in that.
That's what happens, right? Like here, everything's good. And I get to this point.
And that's not the way life works at all. We've all seen that meme of like what people think success is and it's a straight line.
And then what it really is, it's like this tangled mess, like spaghetti mess, right? Totally. So the idea of the gap and the gain is that we have our start and our ideal and then where we actually are.
And stress and anxiety are the result of measuring ourselves between where we are and our ideal.

And what Dan Sullivan recommends and what he teaches all his entrepreneurs who come through the Strategic Coach Program is we need to measure ourselves not by the gap where we are to the ideal, but from where we are from where we started. Because if we're constantly measuring, and this is written in the book over and over again, always measure backwards.
if we think like, okay, who was I in 2012, that first day I walked into my family agency? Like, who was I there? Probably a little disorganized, probably slightly more cavalier, brash, unpolished. And then you kind of refine yourselves and you learn the agency business, like the back of your hand.
You start this tech company. You start to go through all those experiences and you look at yourself today and you're like, oh shit, my job now as part of, and I want to hear what you're doing in Smart Trust in detail.
But I now have this job with this largest network in the country. And I now have this decade of wins, losses, beats, stories, experience, et cetera, to pull off of that make me this incredibly unique value provider to members of SmartChoice, where you could be like, oh, I didn't exit Glovebox for $20 million, right? Like maybe that was your ideal in a moment.
And you could have all that anxiety on yourself, or you could say, holy shit, I have a decade of experiences that no one else has. And now I get to be this tremendous value provider.
No anxiety. And like that, dude, that to me is something I constantly have to remind myself of because I'm nowhere near my ideal.
But when I look back at my experiences, I'm like, I have like a PhD in this industry. And, you know, people can believe that or not believe it, but like, you know, and I see the same thing from you.
I see very similar moments in time. And it's just like that I have to remind myself, but here's the key.
And I'm interested in your take on this. I literally have to remind myself of these things every day, or I wake up and I'm riddled with anxiety, right? Like every day I have to go, look, man, here's where you're at.
Here's the value you provide. Like, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh.
Go get it. Okay, great.
Reset. Let's go.
Feel great. The days where I forget to do that, or maybe, you know, whatever, I get to like two, three o'clock in the afternoon.
I'm like, holy fuck. Finding peak's never going to be anything.
No one's ever going to respect me. I've screwed my career up.
My kids are going to hate me. You know, I'm never going to be able to make the payments on my new house.
What's up, guys? Sorry to take you away from the episode. But as you know, we do not run ads on this show.
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All right, I'm out of here. Peace.
Let's get back to the episode. And then all of a sudden you're like vibrating and you can't wait to go get drunk that night to ease the pain.
It's like, you know, and I just, it's like these little thoughts that just, I don't know. They're so important.
So I don't know. Well, I think the fairytale ending is what you hope to achieve, but how many people get the fairytale ending? And honestly, I don't even know if that's ever reality to have that.
I mean, we're, I always relate things to sports and we're in a, you know, and sorry for your bills. We're in a, we're in, we're in the Super Bowl conversation right now as far as timeframe.
And these teams made it to the ultimate goal of getting to the Super Bowl, and that's their fairytale ending of hopefully raising that trophy. For me, it was start a insure tech company, sell it for a billion dollars, and ride off into the sunset.
By the way, I still had an outstanding experience. I left on amazing terms.
I am going to have a positive, you know, ending to that story just along the same lines. It's just not going to be that fairy tale.
My fairy tale was realigned. That expectation went from here to here and it's okay because the new reality is still what you just described.
Everything in between, the blood, sweat, tears, the monetary earnings at the end of the day, still in a good place. Like everything is actually going to work out just the way it needs to with exception to the trajectory of like the scale, right? The scale just shrinked.
And that's okay because now there's a new scale and there's a new opportunity. So I don know like i i'm always realigning expectations and i think that's what you're getting to the anxiety kind of puts you it grounds you a little bit and it's okay to have anxiety because i think it makes you aware of what's going on yes because in the middle of the day you get in your groove and you kind of jump back out of it with anxiety but i think it's okay to constantly re bounce off you know you know, bounce ideas off people so that you can recalibrate, recalibrate like once a month, if not more.
And so that's where I'm at. Like the fairytale is just a new fairytale.
So yeah, I, I, I have one. I love the idea that anxiety keeps us aware.
I do think that's true. I do think that again, I think think there's a threshold, obviously, where you don't necessarily want to put yourself in places that go too high.
But I do think a small, we want to keep a constant level of stress and we'll put anxiety in that category because otherwise we're not actually pushing ourselves. Like if you're showing up every day and everything is frigging easy and you have no stress, you are not growing as a person.
Totally. And this kind of plays into my next question for you, which is like, do you think we even – like there's no fairytale ending for me.
People are like, where are you trying to go? I don't fucking know. Honestly.
Like, I don't know. I know.
i don't have like a 10-year plan where i have a second house in florida and a boat and whatever like i plan on working forever like i love doing there's certain things that i love doing and i guess my goal my fairy tale is more like being able to work on the projects that i choose to work on as often as i can. But, but like, I guess my point is, is, is shooting for like a fairy tale or even having that as a goal, is that even a worthy pursuit? Like, is that even something that we really want? Like, does anyone, is anyone truly happy if they have nothing to do, but put their feet up and drink, you know, colorful alcohol drinks out of umbrellas? Like, is anybody really happy long-term in that life? I don't know.
I wouldn't be. So the only exception would be if I'm playing golf every day, that'd be like insurance agents typically did not just get no, I mean, yeah, you're onto something because then at what you do is you kind of look around at your peers and you think to yourself, like, what are they going through? What are the, what is their, what does their trajectory look like? And how am I going to relate to that? Why do we always have to compare ourselves to that notion there? So I'm okay with where, where things are.
I think that's a, I think that's a perfect way to transition into your new role is just this idea that I, and I see this, I see this in agencies all the time. It's, It's in everybody.
So I'm not singling out agency owners or whatever, or even producers. But like, I think too often we see chest thumping on LinkedIn.
And I can tell all of you listening to this with 100% certainty that most of the people constantly chest thumping on LinkedIn are doing some small portion of what they say or present online. Just, just so we're all clear.
Like I know a lot of these people and I know the backstory is like, it doesn't mean they're not good people. And it doesn't mean they're not successful.
Just be careful that we idolize people that are chest thumping and shit. And like, I'll give you an example of this.
I post on Instagram a lot, videos of me

like working out. Now, one, that is not for the audience.
That's for me. I go back and I look at

them and I look at form and whatever. I put a little like, sometimes I put like some inspirational

shit on top of it just to make it interesting. But like, but I suck at boxing and I know I suck

at boxing and I put the sucky boxing videos out so that to, in part to show people that you don't

Thank you. suck at boxing.
And I know I suck at boxing. And I put the sucky boxing videos out so that in part to show people that you don't, like, I don't compare myself to good boxers, but I still three times a week go and hit the bags for the workout.
And I think that what we need to stop doing is saying, because I don't, I'm not as good at so-and-so at cold calling, I'm not, I'm going to, you know, be unhappy or I'm not going to cold call because I'm not as good at so-and-so at cold calling, I'm going to be unhappy or I'm not going to cold call because I'm not as good as him or her or whatever. We just have to, again, going back to this gap in the game, if we just think about our own personal growth, everything seems to work out the way it should.
Dude, I think if you consider what it looks like for others to see your posts, your story, and listen to what we're talking about here, I think it's okay to understand that everyone's going to have a different opinion of you. And as long as you're doing right by the industry, your peers, I think it's going to be a good reflection of who you really are and what you stand for.
And that's okay to me. Like, I don't want to be an influencer.
I don't want to be this insurance celebrity. I want to just do right by my peers, work hard for insurance agencies, make good money and have a good life.
Yeah. And that's okay.
So that's where I'm at. So let's talk about that.
So, okay.

So, uh, I'm sure based on your experience, your history, who, you know, you had options on what

your next move would be. And you chose smart choice.
Talk to me a little bit about that.

I'm at Marshberry. Marshberry.
Sorry. Marshberry first choice.
No, it's first choice. I guys,

I apologize. Marshberry first choice.
Sorry. I completely apologize.
No, it's fair. So like, yeah, you're right.
Like the free agency market when I hit the, when I hit the market, it was kind of funny. Like 10, 15 folks immediately like we must talk to definitely get set aside some time.
I knew in the first couple of days, like who the top, who would rise at the top as far as who I'd want to talk to. You're talking everything from insurance carriers to other insurtech companies to, of course, networks, to everything outside the industry, mortgage companies, other insurance agencies, both publicly traded and smaller mom and pops.
It was pretty interesting to take on every conversation to realize what is the next five to 10 years really going to look like? And what do I actually want to do to make it most effective for myself? Because I have two core pieces of logic for my next phase of my career. Doing what I do best, which is marketing, lead generation, networking, professional networking, et cetera, and challenging myself to learn something new inside the industry.
I've had experience as inside the agency space, now at the startup space in the insurtech world, and now in the network space. And what I really wanted to accomplish, because honestly, networks were always fascinating to me.
We're talking like the business model, everything you can do for agencies. You know, you're talking about like, honestly, there's, and this is what I think of networks right now.
You have the one, and there's a big gap. So like, just like good insurance agencies and bad insurance agencies.
The big gap is the value they bring to the, to the, to the client. You can, and I heard this term the other day.
I was cracking up. What was it? Oh, commission clubs.
Networks are just commission clubs. And I heard that and I was cracking up because I was like, okay, clearly the reputation for networks or groups is that all it's doing is giving you market access and enhanced commissions, right? And okay, that's probably the more antiquated old school approach and reputation for what networks and groups are, but the good ones are doing way more than that.
And so I was looking for things like, how can I help agencies operate more effectively, give them legitimate guidance into tech stack and how they can operate with technology and the next version of what a modern agent looks like?

How can I help them?

I just want to be an advisor because that's honestly what I can bring to the table at this point.

Great advice.

Consult.

Lead by example.

I've done it.

I can show you what I did. I can show you what other people are doing.
I talked to thousands of insurance agencies at Glovebox. I saw what they did wrong.
I saw what they did right. Everything in between, a lot of gaps, a lot of overlaps.
There's things that, and here's kind of the reality too, is a lot of these agencies really are just insurance agents that happen to own an agency, and that is okay. That's great.
The problem is you can't be an expert in everything. You're worried about sales and service and marketing and commission statements and carrier relationships and training and recruiting and all this stuff.
There's no way in hell you're going to be an expert in all that. So it's okay to lean into your resources, which for me was the network space.
I've known First Choice for years. I've watched them grow.
They are the number one premium aggregator in the country. When Marshberry acquired First Choice in 2022, it was a huge opportunity to say, you have one of the best insurance agency consulting firms now owning and operating or help provide distribution across the nation for the aggregation side of the house.
And now I can team up with a great reputable name brand, represent them the way I want to represent them. It's all conducive to my first goal, which is helping independent agents succeed.
Everything just fit the bill. So it was funny going through all those recruiting conversations, hearing what possibly I could do.
It was easy to eliminate. It was very simple.
And it only took two weeks. I knew what I was going to do.
Honestly, the first conversation I had with First Choice, it was a done deal as far as my, as far as I was concerned. So, yeah, that's awesome.
I mean, it's, it's so exciting when you feel that connection and, and you can dive into it and really feel like you, like you're being successful. Yeah.
What is that? I don't know why. I don't know what it is.
I'm sorry for everyone listening. For got a Zoom thing.
For some reason, when I do hand gestures, certain hand gestures, the video creates these little bubble things, which is weird, and I got to figure out how to turn it off. For the YouTube people, they saw it, and this is all just wasted time for them.
I want to go back to your comment around the commission club thing. Have you heard that term? I was cracking up.
I have not heard that term before, but I think I can hear agents saying it. It sounds like something agents would say about networks.
And here's one of the things that I always – so I was part of – Rogue was part of two different networks. So we were originally part of Indium, and then when we were purchased, we had to leave Indium obviously, and we part of sia and uh i you know and i would always get people reaching out why did you decide to join indium what's it like being part of sia what's it like being part of a network you'd get a lot of those questions etc or people are in other networks trying to compare and and and i would get never i never commission club but i would get basically like, oh, they don't add any value.
They take more money, whatever. And I'll be honest with you, in both scenarios, when I did the math, if it was just a commission club, it was still worth being there.
So I've never completely understood why- Revenue is revenue. Yes, yes.
So like I could understand. I mean, someone could say, oh, geez, they don't do anything but aggregate premium or whatever, or it's a commission club.
Okay. Okay.
But I make more money than I would if I wasn't part of it. So I'm not really sure if they were solely that, which neither one were.
Both had their own set of services, et cetera, just like Marshbury First Choice. And I just never understood why that is used as a negative.
I think because – I think it's because of the language in the contract. You must remain independent.
You're an independent agent for a reason. Don't join a group if you don't think you're going to remain independent.
If that group has aspirations of acquiring you or getting equity stake in your agency or taking your commissions, personal preference, don't do it. I think that you lose independence.
You lose autonomy. You're actually working with not even a silent partner at that point.
That is just a true partner. Groups, networks that are benefiting an independent agent allow them to stay independent, and they allow them to – we're not.
We're a silent partner. We don't touch your business.
We advise. We give you better opportunities with these carriers.
We get you the access you deserve. We're going to give you some outlets to lean into.
So that's kind of where I'm going. Yeah, no, I, I'm, I am just to be clear.
I'm not saying that there isn't a hierarchy of, of value that different networks give. Yeah, for sure there is, I guess I just assuming, I think most, most networks at face value at a minimum if do the net net, you make more money being part of most networks.
I definitely think there are networks where that is not the case. And I also think there are networks that add more value than don't.
And I think to your point, which is very, very important and probably the most important part, before you join any network or any agency cluster, right? There's all these little like five and six agency clusters forming. And I have heard, you know, some people will be like, it's the best thing I ever did.
It's great. And I've heard other people have these horror stories and it's because we, we don't look at the exit clauses, right? You brought this up.
And I think this is the most important part of all these contracts is what happens if everything goes wrong, right?

It's awesome to talk about the good stuff.

This commission level and this split and this bonus structure and you get to fly to Hawaii if you hit the president's club or whatever.

Amazing.

All those things are amazing.

What happens if things don't go right?

What happens if the agency principal gets hit by a bus and his or her spouse who doesn doesn't want to run the agency now wants to fire sale. How does that work? How do they get out? Do they get screwed? You know, the exit clause in these contracts is so important.
And the people that I know that have the biggest beefs with any network, it always comes back to you didn't really read the exit clause. That's what they'll, they got gripes and maybe those gripes are legitimate, but you didn't read the exit clause and that's why you're pissed.
So that's the sign of an agency owner that needs help. And that is, I keep saying this.
It's okay. That's okay.
You're not an expert in everything. Neither am I, neither is Ryan Hanley, right? It's okay.
So I think leaning into networks is vital. Actually, did you know 70% of agencies, independent agencies, are a part of a group in 2024 and beyond? I didn't know it was that high, but I knew it was more than 50%.
Yeah. Yeah, which is interesting.
So any agency of any size, we're talking $250,000 in revenue. We're talking $200 million in revenue.
So I think that's interesting to assume as well because every agency is using it for different reasons, and that's something that I keep an eye on as well. Yep.
Thankfully, at first choice, we have a lot of reasons why we would get, you know, a big agency involved versus a small agency. We're talking about the Marsh Berry ecosystem at that point, but we don't need to dive into it.
It's just kind of like, if we're leveraging our value adds for every agency, it's not all one size, right? You need this, you need that. I'm going to advise you according to who you are and the makeup of who you are and your aspirations, your goals, and what you actually looking to accomplish? Is it perpetuation? Is it sale? Is it just simply to benchmark myself against another agency and understand what are my peaks and valleys, my gaps and overlaps? There's a lot to be said for every agency is treated uniquely, and that's not something I think every network does.
So that's another big point to observe. Yeah, no, I think it's a great point, And I love that you brought up that stat.
I did not know it was that high. What I think is really interesting is, uh, I wrote, I can't remember as an article or I created something.
It was probably a podcast, but I think it might've been an article around the idea that, um, having, when I first joined Indium, um, which Kat turns now runs and is doing a great job with it's a it's kind of a different organization um much much more uh much more a much better run organization under cat she's doing a tremendous job um than it was when i joined it but um And just getting in and in that version of it which you know I wish that I was part of the cat cat turns version but I wasn't um just getting in and getting my hands it's the first time I'd ever been part of a network because my previous agency that I worked for was wasn't in a network and they were very against them there was like this idea that you you know, my ex-father-in-law was like,

if you have to join a network,

then you're not a good business owner.

You're failing or you can't sell or whatever.

And I'm like, you know,

and I don't want to make him sound so douchey.

It was just his opinion.

He wasn't- Well, no, that happens a lot.

Yeah.

But that happens a lot.

And then I joined Indium and I was like,

wait a minute.

Like, so I get access to these four carriers that I need, but probably don't have the ability to feed enough. So that's an advantage.
I get contingencies on this carrier immediately day one that I wouldn't have gotten commission contingencies on for another year. I give up only the contingency point, you know, whatever the deal was, I can't remember exactly what it was, but you know, and there was like some discounts on a couple of technologies or whatever.
And I remember going like, okay, I don't, is there going to be a day? Here's my question for you. I wrote an article at that time that said there may come a day in the not too distant future when you cannot do this alone anymore.
You have to, part of starting an agency, part of, you know, like choosing your AMS or your CRM or your phone

system, one of those primary decisions pre-launch is going to be which network or aggregation system

am I going to join upon launch? Do you believe that day is coming? Obviously, there'll always

be exceptions, but could you see this number 70 going to 90 someday? Here's an interesting

way to respond to that. There is, I think we're at the mercy of the carriers.
I do. Because

I'm going to go ahead I giving the benefit to these five agencies where they're really not bringing anything different to me as they were on an individual basis, right? There was nothing differently they're doing for me with these five specific agency groups. So the smaller groups could potentially fade just based on the mercy of the carriers, right? They're the ones who are going to dictate, are these groups worthy of the higher splits, of the profit sharing incentives, etc.
So to answer your question, I think it's a wait and see. I think the big ones are in the clear as far as their relationships with the companies, their ability to get the most out of them, and kind of this mutual benefit to both the agency and the carrier.
but the small ones may have this plateau where they can no longer grow because they're at the mercy of the carrier. So I think we should watch that.
That's something to watch. Yeah.
I think, I mean, it is not, you know, it's not breaking news that there is a lot of downward pressure on agencies, particularly really agencies for production, right? And I've heard from, you know, a bunch of my agent connections that, you know, and we were seeing this a little bit at Rogue pre-moving over to SIA that obviously changed everything because of their scale in terms of the pressure that we had. But, you know, we had some pretty substantial pressure before we made that move from a few of our carriers on production.
Right. And I was like, guys, I'm getting you in now because I need you to believe in what I'm trying to do five years from now.
Right. But because the market was changing, you know, there's obviously market dynamics at that time.
We were starting to get the yeah, but we still need X amount of production to like keep your appointment, whatever. And I've heard, right, you know, from a few of my friends who are either more closer to startups

or just run smaller agencies, that that downward pressure has continued and is starting to go

up book. So like, you know, maybe before if you had 250,000 in premium with a carrier,

they were kind of pushing on you or 250,000 or below. Now it's like $500,000 or $750,000, they're starting to push on you a little more.
And that market dynamic to me is how high that pressure goes, like what size book, how high they go with that pressure, that downward pressure that the carriers are putting on it, I think is going to determine a lot of the network adoption. Because if you, you know, if carriers say, hey, if you're over five, if in general, again, we're broad stroking here.
If you have over 500,000 premium with us, you're good, right? We're happy. Just keep producing every year.
We're fine. But if that starts to creep up, and now it's like, geez, if you're not at 750, we're going to really have to start to evaluate this.
Or if you're not at a million, we're going to start to evaluate this. That's going to push a lot of agents into the network discussion because they're going to want to keep writing that carrier, but they're not going to want to deal with the downward pressure all the time.
Dude, not only that, but there's some confusion right now, obviously with these unprecedented times with the way this market is, you're hearing from carriers things like, hey, we no longer offer these products.

And we don't really offer those bonuses anymore, so don't really worry about that.

And by the way, you actually didn't grow with us last year.

And oh, by the way, can you write more business with us?

And so there's this confusion.

It's we've pulled opportunities from you, you have to become more niche, you're not going to get paid the same on that niche. And by the way, I need you to do a lot more business with us.
And so this it's very conflicting. It's, you know, pulling the rug out from under you, and making you get back on your feet immediately and do better than you did previously.
So I think there's a, it's a bit of a confusing time we're in. And so what that's going to do as well, kind of piggybacking off of what you said, it is going to possibly force agencies to join because then they really aren't going to have to have that pressure of production.
They're not going to have to worry about these conversations as much. the confusion will probably dissipate because now that's the group's problem not the individual's problem kind of thing if you get what i'm saying so i think it's a strange time yeah oh no it's definitely strange time i have two i have two uh two questions for you um i'm gonna ask them both at the same time because I'm a bad podcast host.

Nice.

So just deal with that, and then you answer them in the order that you want to. Cool.
So one, you said we have to become more niche. I'm very interested in that because considering the market dynamics, I actually think it will pay dividends and create sustainability in agencies if they become more of generalists, right? And my reason for saying that, just let me articulate, and then we'll go one at a time because this is kind of a big question.
So I push back then that only from the standpoint of if I have, let's say I have three carriers and I know what goes where and they have appetites and I've been growing with them and feeling good. Then all of a sudden the last two, three years happened, this hard market comes in and now there's holes in all those appetites because those carriers rightfully, and you know, and I, I'm trying not to bang on carriers as much because I know they're businesses, right? And we have to deal with the reality of who they are, the reality that they face.
So, so they're looking at profitability and they're starting to pull out of markets and, and, or jacking up pricing, et cetera. And now you add like these three or four or five class of business that you wrote really well, you know, where they go or where they went all of a sudden, you know, you don't know where to put them.
Okay. If instead you wrote 20 classes of business instead of five, again, just, just broad stroking the numbers here, guys, don't, Don't hold me to five versus 20 or whatever.
But like if you became more of a generalist and said, okay, we know how to write these five really well, but what we're going to do is add five more or 10 more classes that we write really well and really work on. Now, all of a sudden, your pool becomes bigger and you have more opportunities.
And are you, you know, does that make sense? What I'm saying? Like by broadening our appetite as agents, we are giving ourselves the flexibility to move with the market. And, you know, maybe all of a sudden, yeah, we can't write those auto repair shops anymore that we've been killing it with the last couple of years because so-and-so carriers doesn't want them.
But man, we could slide into bakeries for a while and crush because they'll still write bakeries and they want bakeries and whatever. And I think, so I guess that's just my thought.
And what do you think about niching more versus going more generalist as a way to weather this storm? Well, it changes your business model because if I'm an insurance agency and I do one thing really well, and for us, that was always personal lines, professional networking, that was my mission. Carrier comes in, or carriers, plural, come in and say that's just no longer the way we're going to take on business.
Obviously, personal lines is a mess. You got to change your business model.
All right, well, shoot, scratch that idea. I can't proceed with my current referral partners.
My professional network changes. My day-to-day changes.
I think it sets an agency back a little bit as far as how they're going to recalibrate and reassess how they're going to accomplish what a carrier wants. Now, although going back to the original question, being more of a generalist is better long-term for the health of your agency.
In the near term, I think it's a hindrance on your success rate, which ultimately hinders your revenue, which hinders your growth, which hinders your ability to hire and do well with your tech. I think we're in this very funky state of the industry.
It's putting a halt and saying reassess yourselves, come back to us in a little bit, and then you can realize what you're going to do for us as a company, like an insurance carrier agency relationship. Dude, I love that perspective.
I actually agree with you. And I think that's a really good perspective.
I would completely agree that if you say had three to five niche markets that were your primary specialty, if you followed my advice in the most straightforward manner, it definitely would set you back. I think that's a very fair assessment.
And I'm kind of thinking about this in real time. I love that you said that.
If I were to game plan that, what I would say is one, I think the earlier you can create a base, an inbound base that can, so what I'm advocating in general with my consulting agency is that what creating an inbound flow and base of business does is give you the sustainability to ride these out because you've created a mechanism to place a wide range of accounts that come in on their own accord because they've chosen. So it's easy to close high converting and, but it does come, you have to cast a little wider net.
All right. And that's what I teach people to do.
Okay. That's great.
But I had an awesome conversation with Charles Speck, who is going to be a couple episodes before this one comes out. So people have heard that where we were talking about how the answer is probably now today you're going to face some turmoil.
But I think I think this really is the answer for agencies moving forward. It's we need to have this layer, this inbound layer that creates kind of a steadily, a steadily increasing foundation of revenue generation, right? Inbound is never going to give you, I shouldn't say that.
It is very rare that inbound is going to give you these huge monumental growth moments. What it does is just incrementally increase every month.
And then all of a sudden, two, three years later, you pop your head up and you're like, holy crap, I'm doing nothing and bringing in X amount of premium every month. That's awesome.
And what Charles and I kind of got to, and you said this, and it just like set this thought off in my head. I think you're so right, dude.
Is that, is it really, I think both are necessary, right? We go for our, we go, we pick our three to five niches.

He recommends one to three max, right?

So say we have those and those are our big wins.

Those are our accounts we crush.

Those are the ones that, you know,

put those big spikes in revenue on the board.

But underneath that, having that base layer of inbound,

if, you know, allows us to ride out these types of storms, which if you haven't built it today, you're going to feel some pain, but like understanding that it doesn't feel like the market is going to become any less dynamic in the next five to 10 years, considering what's going on politically and economically, et cetera. That feels like the formula, right? Like have your nice base layer.
And then these targeted big wins that you go after with maybe an outbound program. Does that sound like what you're saying? Yeah.
And I think that base layer you're talking about is probably only attainable if you are part of something bigger, because it might not be something you can achieve on your own. And so that's why I'm advocating a network.
It's because it's okay to lean into the network for the foundational stuff that you're talking about that can no longer be accomplished with the way the market is. And it's okay to be niche when you feel like you already have that access and relationship with the people and companies that you know you can get done.
But then you're talking two different business models in one. But here's what I would

advise. If you're an agency owner and you do have this issue, start to hire producers for the niches

that you're trying to expect and grow in. So for example, if you're a commercial line shop, you have

your specific producer, one or two individuals who specifically go after roofers and plumbers

Thank you. If you're a commercial line shop, you have your specific producer, one or two individuals who specifically go after roofers and plumbers and contractors.
And then you work on another individual who goes after the habitational stuff and maybe the cannabis stuff. And then you have individuals that represent your niches, and then you can grow those verticals within your organization.
and they know their markets, and some are going to lean into the network access, and some are going to lean into your individual access that you have as an agency.

And that allows you to be versatile because now you're not relying on one vertical or one or two or three kind of like you mentioned. You can lean into your specific silos of production.

You're looking over here with these producers, these producers, and that's the right way to, in my opinion, grow your agency long-term because now you're not worried about these market influxes. It's just, okay, like some are going to drive more revenue today.
Some are going to drive more revenue tomorrow. And I'm just going with the punches.
And so what I hear you saying as well is being intentional about the thought process, right? So like you won't, you know, it might not

from a sustainability standpoint, right?

Which is a lot of, like I have this concept

and I actually shared it in a solo video

that will have also been out most likely

by the time this one comes out.

But it's this idea that like how I used to pitch people

who'd push me, who'd push back on me

about the value of insurance.

So at Rogue, we wrote a lot of startups.

Even when I was back at the Murray Group,

we wrote a lot of startups, you know,

or new businesses, et cetera.

And a lot of startups. Even when I was back at the Murray group, we wrote a lot of startups, you know, or new businesses, et cetera.
And a lot of times, what I think is amazing, people who've been in business for 10 years and all the, you know, you, you'll know this too. I mean, everyone who's been an agent knows this 10 years in business, completely respect insurance for the most part, you know, listen to you, you know, take your advice new in business, know everything they've ever needed to know about insurance.
You're an asshole and you don't know anything. Right.
So they would call and I'd say, okay, man, here's my pitch on why insurance is important. Insurance provides the foundation in which you build growth.
You can't grow without insurance. And I could almost hear them on the phone, like taking that in.
And depending on the response, you know, I'd be like, look, man, here's the deal. If you don't have, you can't hire more people unless you have workers' compensation insurance.
You want to add a professional element to your business? You need E&O. You want to go raise money? Now you have a board of directors? You need D&O.
You need, you know, all these different coverages. You want to, you know, expand the size jobs that you work on? You need a commercial umbrella.
So like your growth, your top line revenue growth that turns you on, none of it is possible without this foundation. So I've never heard anyone say it like that.
That's outstanding. Yeah.
Everyone can steal that or just join my joint finding peak today. Learn even more tidbits like that, you know, dynamite drop.
So the but I think this also that kind of foundation to growth analogy. This is, again, I love what you said about the niche markets.
My only thing that I would add to that is I think you also need to have a what I call closer, completely different position, completely different psychological profile who handles your inbound accounts as well, right? So it's like creating a generalist inbound niche. Like my niche, if you were to hire me to come work at your agency, would not be to cold call people.
I would not be amazing at that. I don't wanna do.
And I wouldn't be great. However, you put me as a closer, right? You, you know, you, you just have my phone ring and have me close, dude, I'll close 90% of the accounts that come in.
And that, cause that's what I'm good at. There are other people who couldn't do that, but dominate as outbound producers.
I think we almost have to think about this inbound position like another niche that we work on that just gets us this consistent flow of business that's coming in. And then we have these other guys and gals, people, humans, who are doing that.
Hey, they're going after those $10,000 revenue accounts, 5,000, 20,000 revenue accounts. yeah and then that way no matter what happens you you're protected yeah you're always kind of you're you're kind of like ah you know just like the ebbs and flows don't impact you as much yeah i see what you're saying yeah and i think i guess i completely but i don't think you can accomplish that without your, your network because you're fighting your, your carriers all day.
And I, and I think that's the point that I want to, I want to reiterate that point. That was a really good point that I hope people didn't lose in order for inbound to work, right.
That inbound position to work, you have to have, you have to have a decent carrier set, you, you know, two or three carriers and inbound is not going to help you. The thing with Rogue, and again, some of this, I'm not advocating for you to have as many markets as we have.
The day that we closed, we had 61 markets. You can't even be an expert, isn't it? Yeah.
So that was too many markets, way too many markets. And I get it.
Everyone's like, oh, I get it. Traditionalists.
You don't have to hit me. I know that was too many.
However, what it did allow us to do is I could place, we had 271 industry classes that we placed at row grit 200. No, that's right.
221, sorry. 221 industry classes that we placed.
So I think 62 is insane. That's not what I'm advocating for, but I do think finding a network that matches your value structure is important if you don't have a broad portfolio of carriers directly because what that allows you to do is place the business exactly where it's supposed to go versus trying to wedge it in somewhere.
Again, speaking specifically to inbound and because you are gonna have kind of a broad set, you'll have a bakery, then a contractor, then a, then a marketing consultant, then, you know, you know, whatever, a delivery person and having a broad set of carriers, which I believe is probably only possible through some sort of network relationship today is the only way to get that done. That is a perfect opportunity for me to transition over to something real quick.
Yeah. Because I think it's just as important.
You can't plan for your business without some sort of financial guarantees. And with the way we are right now, with the lack of personal lines, you know, new business and our commercial lines in and out of niche opportunity, you are banking on your current revenue, but that can fluctuate so strongly with regards to your production and your retention.
If you are a part of a network, you have a little bit more guarantee that you're going to know your financial outlook every year because there are some profit sharing guarantees. There are some contingency bonuses that are part of the fold.
There are some commission enhancements that are specific to each company you write with. And that allows you to plan ahead for things like, you know, building up those silos we talked about, hiring and training and getting software in place to do all these things.
So I think it adds another element of the financial aspect. You got to plan out your year or a couple of years in advance.
And if you can't financially back that plan, then it's not going to work anyway. So a network also financially would benefit you because you have some guarantees behind the way you're planning your business.
And so, yeah, you're talking about what we were talking about a few minutes ago. And then the other consideration is financially, you have to have some guarantees and know what that outlook is going to look like.
Let me, I want to ask you, I know we're kind of getting up against the number, but I have one more question that I want to ask you specific about this before we wrap. The way I've seen a lot of network memberships pitched, right? When they're pitching to the agency.
And I'm not just talking about Indium or SIA. I've heard this, been part of different conversations, et cetera, with a bunch of different stuff.
If I'm being honest, never first choice Marshberry. So I have no intrinsic knowledge there, but I've heard this pitch from a bunch of different networks.
Okay. And it usually boils down to owner income, right? It comes down to, Hey, overtime discounts, relationship, whatever your value things are that week, you can make more money agency owner by being part of this network.
Okay. That's usually where the pitch comes back to however they get there.
Okay. My question for you is, do you think in the times we're in today, that pitch should change from owner income improvements to growth? Like to me today, you know, if you're the owner and you have a lifestyle, et cetera, I'm not saying you should get rid of your income or whatever, I'm not trying to knock that.
I guess my point is like, if I were pitching a network today and I'm just interested in your take because I could be completely off here. If it were me and I was pitching a network, I would focus on growth.
I would be like, look, the only way to get through these times is not to maximize your personal income. It's to grow your agency.
And the best way to do that is to be here. And I've always found it interesting.
I think the pitch 10, 20 years ago was when the markets were really stable and they were soft, right? It was owner income, owner income, owner. You're going to grow regardless.
Prices are always coming down. Owner income.
Today, I feel like that needs to be changed to growth, growth, growth. Is that wrong? Do you disagree? What are your thoughts on that? No, it makes me think of a really good point that my brother Ryan actually mentioned to me just literally this morning.
And I'm just going to read it because it's sitting right here in front of me. And it says basically – let me start at the top for a second.
So building a business fast is way easier than building it slow. And what Ryan meant by that is it's kind of twofold.
Growing agencies have a tendency to take profits out of the company far too early. That could be specific to the agency owner's compensation and put it in their own pockets.
The sacrifice of the agency's growth. When you're in pure growth mode, reinvest most of the profits back in to fuel the growth in that way.
So pour the gas on the fire now in favor of larger returns later. The business is going to go through waves of growth where you figure out strategies that just seem to align with the market at the right time.
It's important to triple down on what's working and put the blinders on as you don't know how long that specific wave is going to last. And when Ryan said that, I was like, yep, that's completely what agency owners should be focusing on right now.
You are not in a market to make money for yourself today. You are in a market that's allowing you to take opportunities, do whatever you can to grow now, because your benefit is triple down the road.
Yes, dude. I, I, I literally, I love that, that, that, that is guys go back, hit the back button, you know, 30 seconds or whatever, and go back and listen to that again.
I couldn't agree more. You know, I had someone, I had a former employee at Rogue kind of troll me on the internet and make a comment about how Rogue wasn't profitable.
And my, you know, I don't engage in trolls

because people don't know who the idiots are.

But like, you know, in my head, I was like,

that is such a stupid statement

because we were a three-year-old agency.

Our growth rate was probably,

if we were to put our growth rate against,

and again, I can't talk about specific numbers,

but if I were to put our growth rate

against any other agency in the country,

we would freaking blow everyone out of the water.

It wasn't, wouldn't even be close.

Thank you. growth rate against, and again, I can't talk about specific numbers, but if I were to put our growth rate against any other agency in the country, we would freaking blow everyone out of the water.
It wasn't, wouldn't even be close. The things we were doing were effing insane.
And yes, we weren't profitable because we, we were a three-year-old agency. We wanted, we, I wanted to, I wanted to grab as much market share as I possibly could as fast as I could and gain, cause you can always cut expenses out of a business, but you can't, but it's really hard to put revenue on the top.
Right. So like, I, I could not agree with that more.
This hard market, if you are complaining about, about not being able to grow in this hard market, I know there are extenuating circumstances and I'm not saying it's easy, but this is an opportunity to you said small gains today will spring forward in the future. And all of a sudden you'll look up and you'll be light years from where you are.
I couldn't, I couldn't agree with that sentiment more. This is now is not the time to take profits guys.
Now is not the time. Reinvest hard, harder, double, triple down.
So I'd like time to become a wartime general, bro. It's time to become a wartime general bro it's time to become a wartime general if you are not a wartime general find someone in your agency or find someone you can bring in who is or find a coach or a mentor or a consultant who can come in and be a wartime general for you because that that is what you need right now and the people who do what you just said man they're they're gonna they're gonna be the ones we have on pedestals three, five, 10 years from now.
So yeah, I love it. Yeah.
I love it. That's it's I'm glad we recovered that.
That's really important right now. All right.
So dude, I appreciate the hell out of you. I love this.
Um, where can people connect with you personally? And if they would just want to learn more about what you're doing or Marshberry smart, uh, first choice, uh, where do they go? Always on LinkedIn. So Andy Matheson on LinkedIn is the best way to find me, get in touch with me, chat with me, DM, and we can set some up specific.
I think you're going to be pleasantly surprised at what networks are doing right now. It is not what you thought five, 10 years ago.
So just consider that. Don't just think your agency doesn't fit the mold just because of what you think it is.
Get some education, understand what it really means, and then you can make an educated decision. Dude, appreciate the hell out of you.
I'm so happy for you. Thanks.
I'm proud of that journey. Not that you need to hear that, but just as you know, as someone who cares about your success, I'm proud that you're in a place that you feel better.
I can see it in you. Like you just, dude, you seem, you know, last couple of times I saw you, you could just see the stress on you a little bit.

I love it.

I heard that from a few.

Yeah.

No, I feel it too.

I feel that sense of relief.

And just very appreciative that you would come on and share your story,

share your emotions.

Appreciate you.

People need to hear that stuff.

So awesome, bud.

Let's get out of here.

Awesome.

Good to talk to you, man.

Talk to you soon.

I'm going to the booze. Thank you.
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