RHS 190 - Joey Coleman's Guide to Navigating Leadership, Empathy, and Employee Experience

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In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home.

Hello everyone and welcome back to the show.

Today we have an absolutely tremendous guest, an all-timer here on The Ryan Hanley Show,

Joey Coleman.

And if you were at Elevate 2018, you would have seen Joey Coleman live. He wrote a tremendous book, Never Lose a Customer Again.
And Joey is back to talk about his latest book, Never Lose an Employee Again. And I think you're going to absolutely love this conversation.
We dive into so many aspects of being a leader, of managing people, of hiring, of firing, the emotional toll that it takes on everyone involved, obviously the employee who is being impacted, but also the leaders, the HR people, the managers, everyone in between who has to deal with just the trials of employee engagement, employee management. And it's a wonderful conversation because Joey's a tremendous guy and just brilliant and always love having him on.
And Never Lose a Customer Again is one of my all-time favorite business books. I keep it right next to my desk with a few other books that I've mentioned in the show before that I essentially use it as a guidebook, like a textbook, and I reference it all the time.
So you're going to love this show. You're going to love this conversation.
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Let's get on to the all-powerful, all-seeing, all-knowing, Joey Coleman. I'm going to shampoo.
The man, the myth, the legend, Ryan Hanley. I was going to start with the exact same thing but your name i literally was waiting for you to come on the screen i was gonna say the exact same thing you beat me to it you son of a guy you're too kind you're too kind how have you been i feel like i have such fond memories of us being together live in person before the whole world melted down and disappeared for years.
Yeah. How have you been? Good.
Good. A lot of a lot of different twists and turns in the journey since then.
But as I sit here today, probably as good as I've ever been. So, um, I was fired six days after you spoke, um, hopefully not because of my speech.
No, no, not, not, not specifically because of your, no, I'm kidding. Um, the feedback on your presentation, Joey was such, I'm sorry.
Uh, we can never have you involved in this organization. Yes.
You did great. But hiring that Joey Coleman guy gotta go.
It was a problem. Uh, so then I was the chief marketing officer of another company and then, uh, left there, became the CEO of a fitness business.
There's a little twists and turns in there. Um, did so well at that business.
I made it profitable and fun again for the founder. So he fired me because that was his biggest expense and became the CEO again.
At which point I decided that the universe was telling me to start my own insurance agency, which I did seven days before the zombie apocalypse happened. And I fought through that.
We built the business up through COVID.

We were wholly acquired in April of 2022.

I stayed on as CEO and founder, and that's where I am today. Dude, congratulations on being acquired, by the way.
Yeah. That's awesome.
That's awesome. And as you well know, very rare that that happens.
Yeah. I haven't talked too much about it.
Um, because I haven't known exactly how to do it, um, in a way that is useful to people. Um, people know, obviously, I mean, people listen to the show, no, and obviously part of my life, but like the details, how it worked, how we got there, the things we did.
Um, when, when the time is right and I've kind of, I want to, the truth is our, our buddy, our, our buddy, Marcus Sheridan said this to me one day. Um, I said, you know, we, we did back-to-back speeches one time.
Okay. Marcus is obviously tremendous and amazing human.
Love that guy. Yeah.
Yeah. He's's the best and um and we've spoken back to back i think three times all three times um actually i shouldn't say that once i was ahead of him twice he was ahead of me following marcus sheridan is a trial for a speaker it's a trial so true so true.
So I've done that. I've done joint events with Marcus.
Yeah. Where we were back and forth over the course of days.
And yeah, he's the real deal, brother. He's the real deal.
But the good news is, I believe that heat tempers steel. I believe that pressure builds diamonds.
I believe that if you're going to follow someone or open for someone, Marcus is a good person because it is going to call you to bring your a game in a way that a hundred very few speakers would a hundred percent. And, and what I learned from that is, um, uh, he, he, you know, so, so being, being buddies, I would say to him, Hey, look, you know, I feel like I bring a similar energy.
I feel like I can tell stories as good. Um, as you know, I can tell similar quality stories.
I can, I love, love stories. I, I work the audience.
I'm doing a lot of the same things I said. And while I get a lot of engagement, you get standing ovations and I don't.
And I said, not that I need that to feel justified in my work, but it is in our business, a testament to making an impact. Yeah.
It can be a metric worth tracking. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. You know, and, and, and I've, you know, one, I'm, I speak to a lot of insurance audiences who are often, it's like literally ripping teeth out of their face to get them to engage with you.
Yeah. But, but you know, I, I'm like a test too.
That's a test too. Okay.
Blah, blah, blah. And I said, well, what, you know, if you had to pick one thing and he goes, bro, it's easy.
You don't have a million dollar slide. And I said, what, what, what do you mean by that? And he said, I have a slide that clearly defines that.
I know exactly what the fuck I'm talking about. It's a slide, you know, and he's got this slide and blah, blah, blah.
It doesn't matter. But he's like, you don't have that thing.
He's like, you have all the stories, you have all the ability to work the audience. He goes, in some cases, you know, you can tell these stories in a way that other people can't, you know what I mean? Not better or worse.
Just you have a unique style and you have all these other pieces, but you don't have that thing that everyone in that audience is going, oh my God, I want that thing so bad. You know, like you don't have that thing that is that because you have like these little, little things that are good, but they're not that thing that just makes you go.
I want that. Yeah.
And he said, you got to get that. So I have purposefully and intentionally held off on telling the story around how I got to being acquired, what that meant.
Cause it was all, it was highly tactical. I mean, it wasn't like I just walked into it.
Of course, of course. There's always an area, an element of serendipity.
Of course. But you, you, yeah.
Yeah. Very few people sell a business without having strategically thought about selling a business.
It happens, but it's, they're unicorns when that happens. So, so that's the deal.
So I basically have 18, a little less than 18 months to hit my targets and hopefully blow past them so I can say, look, now I can show I could stand in front of an audience and say, here is a tactical framework or filter system that you could work through that maybe not in the same timetable, maybe not the same, whatever, maybe bigger, maybe, you know, whatever. But like, here is an actual system that I put into place worked and got to this result, which is, you know, I think would be lucrative for anybody.
So a million dollar slide. That's my million.
I'm trying to get my million dollar slide, my man, dude. I love every piece of this.
And you know what I particularly love? And I just want to call it out. There's a number of humans on the planet that if they worked really hard at something and then they got fired and then they worked to another place and worked really hard at something and left and then went to another place and worked really hard at something and got fired would say, you know what? I'm good.
Enough of this shit. Like I've just like, maybe I should be looking at other career options.
What I love about your resiliency and your energy is you are like, I have what it takes to succeed in this industry and to be a player in this industry and make my mark on this industry. And you doubled down on yourself.
And that's where you got your million dollar slot. Well, dude, how can you, what is the hypocrisy if I were to pretend to tell people or share with people lessons that I've learned if I don't live those lessons myself? The hypocrisy would be what about, in my north of 75 percent of speakers on stage do yeah yeah well so that's it so that's it like and the fact that you don't cuts through the noise yeah what one of the reasons why marcus is so amazing one of the reason i love calling him a close friend and a brother is because marcus on stage and mar stage, same person.
Yeah. Same person.
The number of speakers that I know that are the same person on stage and off stage. I can count right here.
I don't need any more than this. I know.
I don't need any more than this. And that I think is where the impact and the experience and the life worth living really comes from.
Yeah. You are on stage and who you are off stage.
Same, same, same dude. Yeah.
Well, one, I appreciate that. I can say, I mean, a hundred percent for you too.
I enjoyed, I enjoyed every part of one, our original podcast conversation that we had before we ever talked about you coming and speaking and elevate then all the time leading up our time together, even though brief at elevate. Um, I'm a huge fan of you, not only as a person, but, uh, but, but your work obviously.
And so happy to talk about your new book. Um, I, I could not agree with you more about, uh, so it's, it's that kind of cliche, but game smells game to a certain extent.
And I hear you. I was recently at an event and a new speaker, new to speaking guy gave a presentation.
He was fucking brilliant. Raw, Raw undervalued himself immensely, especially when I heard what he charged to speak for that event.
I was like, bro, I'm gonna give you the best advice you've ever heard. Triple what you're charging.
Like you, you know, and, uh, you know, and then I literally like bagged half of the rest of the event to spend with this guy to say like, dude, like, cause he was, he was exactly the thing he was offstage and the thing he was on stage were so good. He would be a little raw and he's a little more framing, you know, and whatever, and just practice.
But like, um, but like, I just was like, these are the kind of people that we need to continue to elevate because whether you a hundred percent agree with what he's saying or not, although his message was not controversial, it was, it was phenomenal. It was about selling, selling to emotions instead of, you know, in a, in a very positive way versus, you know, just, you know, I don't have to get into it, but but it was like this, I just couldn't help myself.
I literally bagged like the second half of the conference and I just sat with this guy and like, you know, and was like, dude, think about this. And how would you frame this up? And, you know, I didn't have the answers.
I was trying to give him like thought experiments so that he could, but it was like, this, we need more people like you on the circuit talking to people because it's not bullshit, you know? And that's a really important thing. Yeah.
Dude, totally agree. Totally agree.
I love it. I love it.

So, okay. So let me ask you this question.
As a speaker, how did you survive COVID? How did you get through not being able to do your thing in person? A combination of luck, resiliency, perseverance, being willing to do whatever it took. Yeah.
And doubling down to what I knew to be true, which is people are hurting right now. And I had a series of speeches I did during COVID that were developed during COVID were only given during COVID and I don't give anymore.
Yeah. And the context of those speeches were, the first one was all about the fact that we had been knocked to the bottom of the pyramid of Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
And how are we going to crawl our way back up? And then in the latter half of COVID, probably the last year, what's next was the title of the speech. Where do we go from here? How do we take what we've learned and restart and rekindle and do, do, do.
And luckily there were enough businesses that were struggling with those issues that I could come in and bring the content, you know, virtually to be able to do that. I also did a lot of consulting during that time, which I had kind of not been doing as much consulting, but I just started.
you had talked about dialing that back and i had really done that yeah i had reallyed it down to almost nothing. I was doing like maybe one consulting project a year and of course dialed it back up.
And there were a lot of folks that are like, I mean, I got a call from a guy one day and he said, can we just talk for a while? And I was like, yeah, man, what's going on? And he's like, I just had to fire 4,000 people and I just need a friend right now. And I was like, oh my God, of course, let's do it.
And then literally an hour later, an hour later, I'm on a call with another client and friend and he says, can I be honest with you? And I was like, always, you never have to ask permission for that. He said, we have 5X'd our business revenues for the last year in the last three months.
He did a credit card payments. And he's like, and I can't even tell my wife because I feel guilty about it because so many of my friends are firing people and shutting down their businesses.
And that juxtaposition for me personally to see people at their their highest highs and their lowest lows, and neither of them knew how to talk about it was like, here, here's, here's some space for us to work. Dude, I, I had this conversation with a friend of mine, I do these, I just a group of local business guys, they're all 35 to 50 years old, you know, and we just, we get coffee and breakfast every other week.
And obviously when COVID happened, we couldn't do it for a while. But, you know, politics aside, as soon as maybe even illegally, you know, we could get together at somebody's house or whatever, you know, we did because, you know, I don't know, it was important to connect.
And that conversation was happening with everybody in one of the shapes or forms. Right.
And one of the things that I think is really interesting, not to, um, I don't want to say, uh, better or worse, but the emotional toil of often the emotional toil of being fired is what most people focus on. The emotional of having to let people go is often brushed off as like ah you're just this authoritarian a-hole like fire people totally that i have been at my lowest as a professional oftentimes in the moments prior to and directly following having to let someone go even if they they deserved it.
Yeah. They 100 percent owned it.
Totally. It is a horrible, horrible thing.
Horrible. Yeah.
Horrible. And that's where, you know, such a big premise of this book is designed to try to get the employer to understand the employee's perspective.
But equally, I think when they do that it will help the employee to understand the employee's perspective. But equally, I think when they do that, it will help the employee to understand the employer's perspective.
Yeah. That's the Trojan horse of the book.
See, the Trojan horse of the book is the person who's buying it is going to be like, wait a second, this is all about getting showing the love to my people. When did they get to show the love to me? Have faith, brother.
Yes. Because when you show it to them, they will feel a level of connection and reciprocity and bonding to you that you can't even begin to fathom the magnitude.
I'm so excited to talk about this to you and just in full candidness, I'm going to use this as a personal consulting engagement as well, since I have you captive. Happy to, happy to.
As always, I trust you implicitly take the conversation wherever you like, wherever you like, I will follow. Being my own journey that I've had from an employee standpoint of both being M, I'm going to forget exactly the number.
I got, I'm going to get the first, it was seven numbers and letters. When I worked at American express, I was M one eight and four more numeric symbols that I can't exactly remember, but that's who I was, right? I wasn't Ryan Hanley.
I was this, I was M one eight. My mail came that so go, you know, experiencing what it means to be a nothing person and to be a number.
Yeah. Literally be a number.
Yes. Yeah.
That's what you are. I mean, that's, that's, we know that humans don't like to be thought of as a number.
Yes. And yet, what does an organization like that do? Hey, you're new on the job.
Great. Here's your number.
Yes. And that's what you were.
That was the Dales, right? So I've been that. I've been family business.
I've been basically asked to leave a family business. I've been fired multiple times.

Even the job that I left kind of mutually,

it was not going well for different reasons

that I won't get into

because it just is not important.

It's not pertinent to this.

So I've had what I feel in general

is a broad, broad stroke of experience

in terms of employment experiences. And so when I became a true employer, I wanted to do it differently.
Yes. And, um, you know, dude, should we save some of this for the conversation? Cause I'm happy to get into any of this.
This is the conversation. Are we in the conversation? It's already started.
Beautiful. I love it.
We're in it already. I didn't even realize it's brilliant.
That's why I hit record before you come on only in case this happens. So that is so that in case you're like, this is a brilliant conversation.
All of a sudden I'll be like, we should add that now. So, so yeah.
So, so, so my, you know, one of the things I think is so interesting is when I started rogue, it was just me. I know other employees,, I wanted to grow it larger.
Kind of fitting. No offense.
If your brand is going to be Rogue, you better not start with eight people, right? Yes. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Like live the brand. I love it.
Which is funny because it's so funny. I still get asked today, how do you feel about the name Rogue? And I'm like, well, it's a single syllable alliteration with one of the more memorable letters that has both a clearly defining differentiator and a word that clearly defines what industry you're in in it.
So frankly, the fact that you ask that question means makes me question your intelligence. You know, that's my that's what's going on in my head.
What I actually say is I really like it. I love it.
Brilliant. Brilliant.
Well, I like it too. I think it's awesome.
When I, when I saw it come across, I was like, that is really fun. Yeah.
Yeah. So, so the first thing I wrote down and this is where I'd love, you know, we're going to get into the, we're going to talk all about the book and I want to talk about the book and, and I'm so excited.
And, and so, okay. So the very first thing I wrote down when I was kind of sketching out this idea, this is probably two days after I've been canned.
So we'll call it October 8th of 2019. I am wholly committed to starting my own agency, but most of the ideas are here, not on paper.
So I'm starting to sketch those ideas out. And literally the first thing I wrote before I wrote anything else, and I wrote some core

ideas, which still exist today.

But the first thing I wrote

before I wrote anything else, and I wrote some core ideas, which still exist today. But the first thing I wrote was I wanted to create a no ceiling insurance career.
I wanted to create a career for insurance professionals in which they felt that as hard as they wanted to work, as much expertise as they wanted to develop, as willing as they were to buy into

process, they could go that far. And that I, because my last name is Hanley and your last name is Coleman, that doesn't keep you from ascending to all your wildest dreams come true, world domination, gold coins rain down from the sky and whatever else that you want out of life happens.
And, and that has been a very, very interesting journey. And trying to implement that.
So what I would what I would love to get before we get into that and use that as the construct is, we talked, you know, I think we got a little bit of a feel for why I wrote the book, but why? Why employees, you know, you're, you're the, you're the customer retention guy, right? You're the guy. I literally have your book.
It's in my nightstand. I still reference it to this day.
I'll pull it out for different ideas, thoughts, things I need to remember it for those listening. I'll have never lose customer again in the show notes.
You can go back and listen to the old podcast. It's one of the best business books, let alone customer retention that's specifically focusing on books I've ever read.
I still use it as a guidebook today, just all candidness. But so you're the customer retention guy.
Now you're talking about employees. Now I think we can make a connection, but where does that, where does that jump come from? Why start focusing on this versus continuing saying to sales or customer service, you know, whatever, why, where did this jump come from? So before I answer that, Ryan, let me just say how flattered I am about the kind words about my first book, which was never lose a customer again.
And I'll focus on the customer experience. What you shared right there is actually a dream come true for me.
And I'll explain why. When I wrote the book, I didn't want it to be a once and done book.
You know, there's some books in your life that you read once and you get what you need to get out of it and you're good to go. I think the best books are the ones that you can come back to.
You can read at a different point in your career when you're facing a different problem, a different situation, a different scenario.

You're in a different organization. You've got a new product, a new service, whatever it may be.

So thank you for sharing that because that lights me up and I so appreciate that.

Lots of people, to your point, are like, so wait a second, Joey, for 20 years plus,

you've been the customer experience guy. Now you're going to be the employee experience guy.

Why the switch? Friends, it wasn't a switch. It's the other side of the same coin.
Let me explain what I mean by that. We can't expect to create remarkable customer experiences if we don't have the employees to do it.
And an employee can't create a remarkable experience if they have no context for what a remarkable experience is. And the fact of the matter is they're not going to be getting many of those experiences, especially as an employee, out with the brands they're interacting with.
Their chance to get that experience is from you, the employer. And it can be the employer who's got their name on the door, or it can be the direct manager who doesn't have their name on the door, but is still responsible for the experience that's being delivered to that person every single day.
I had been into my customer experience career about all of, let me see if I can remember, yeah, five minutes before I realized that employee experience was inextricably linked to customer experience. So what I've always decided, and it's ironic, if you look at the two books, same size, same design.
If you're familiar with the first book, same eight phases of the customer journey and same six tools we would use to create remarkable customer experiences have been turned internal on the employee journey and the employee experience. So this is all the same story, just with a different focal point.
If you want to improve your customer experience, focus on improving your employee experience. If your customers are thrilled with you, your employees will be thrilled with you.
Why? Because they'll like coming to work. They'll like interacting with the people you serve.
If your customers can't stand you, you're going to have huge employee issues, huge employee morale issues,

because every day at work feels like a trouble. Some traw through muck and mire.
So there's an opportunity, I think, by focusing on one, you're polishing one side of the coin and you get the benefit of lifting the value and polishing the other side of the coin as well. Yeah, I agree.
I mean, if you, so our mantra at Rogue is people process premium.

People are first for a fucking reason, because you if you don't have good people who bind to what you're doing and you don't treat them well, then it doesn't matter. You literally have nothing.
You could literally implement to a T perfect, perfectly every phase of your first book. and it would still not hit home if you don't have the people behind it.

So we don't even focus on the customer until literally the third part of our mantra, which is in our case premium being writing business for customers.

So that to me is – it makes complete sense, And I think that, so let me frame the question. Let me frame this question this way.
Why is this so hard for people? Like, like this to me is obvious. Like I don't, maybe, and maybe it's because I've been tossed to the curb so many times that I'm just like, duh, but like, why is this so hard for people? Because I will tell you

that one of the questions I get the most at Rogue is about hiring and retaining people. Because we

have a wait list to work here. There's a literal wait list of people that want to work at Rogue.

And I just, we have to hit certain milestones of revenue before we can hire more people.

But I don't get why this as a concept isn't so natural to leaders, managers, et cetera. A couple of thoughts on that.
And I love this. And before I get to that, kudos to you for having a wait list of people that want to work.
That's how you know you've created something special is when you have a wait list, especially in this economy, in this day and age where you have a wait list of people who want to come work for you. Brilliant.
I love every piece

of that. So here's why I think this happens.
And I want to preface this by saying, I come to this conversation from a place of both sympathy and empathy, sympathy in that I understand it's hard empathy and that I've lived it too. So I get it.
Yeah.

Most employers, it has been a really long time since they were an employee. You're kind of the exception to the rule, Ryan.
I say this respectfully because Rogue is earlier in its life cycle. You remember the taste, the feel, the pain, the joy of being an employee.
And you have brought that perspective full on to the design of your enterprise. Most employers, it's been decades since they were an employee.
If ever, so many entrepreneurs go straight from school or straight from, you know, out of their parents' house to starting their own business. They never pit stop in the place of employee.
And I say pit stop not to denigrate being an employee, but meaning spend enough time in it to get the feels, to understand what it's like to be an employee. So that's problem number one.
Problem number two, many employers think that the definition of being a good employer is seeming to have all the answers, being resilient, ready to rock it, never stumbling, never falling. And so they come to the conversation from this place of I'm going to have the answers.
I'm going to tell you I'm not going to show you vulnerability. I'm not going to admit that I'm not sure.
And this creates a disconnect where the employee is looking at the employer going, I can't bring my concerns to them because they'll think I'm stupid or they think I'm not paying attention or they don't think I'm doing a good job and I might get fired. And no one on the planet goes to work thinking, gosh, I hope today's the day I get fired.
Yeah. Right? This is not how it operates.
Third and final reason. And this comes back to that conversation of how does the customer experience guy become the employee experience guy? In most organizations, Rogue Risk being an exception, right? In most organizations, customer experience happens over on the marketing team, the sales team, the ops team, employee experience, happens in a silo called HR, if you have an HR department, or whenever there's a problem, we pay attention to it.
Oh my gosh, we got to fill a role. Somebody just quit.
Let's spin up HR capabilities if you're in a small organization. Or, oh my gosh, it's been two years since we've given our people any feedback.
I suppose we should do an annual review. That's what they do, right? Let me Google questions to ask on an annual review and we'll have an annual review process, right? It's haphazard at best.
And that's, again, not a criticism of the leader. This is just the challenge we all face.
And no one, with all due respect to my HR friends in the world, no one is sitting in a job right now going, hey, we're going to invite HR to this meeting. And they're thinking, oh, this meeting just got better.
Yeah, yeah. If you hear HR is coming to the meeting, you think, oh, I'm going to be packing up a box and heading out at the end of the day, escorted by security.
That's why HR, or I'm going to be put on a performance review plan, or there's some type of punishment that's coming. So the challenge I think we face as employers, as leaders, is to remember what it was like to be an employee.
And if we can't remember it, to step into their shoes and feel it. To think more strategically about the journey of the employee experience and how challenging

that is.

And to break down the barrier between we're having a customer experience conversation

or employee experience conversation to say we're having a human experience conversation.

And wherever we practice our human experience skills internally, it sharpens and hones our abilities externally and vice versa. What's up guys.
Sorry to take you away from the episode, but as you know, we do not run ads on this show in an exchange for that. I need your help.
If you're loving this episode, if you enjoy this podcast, whether you're watching on YouTube or you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, I would love for you to subscribe, share, comment if you're on YouTube, leave a rating review if you're on Spotify or Apple iTunes, et cetera. This helps the show grow.
It helps me bring more guests in. We have a tremendous lineup of people coming in, men and women who've done incredible things, sharing their stories around peak performance, leadership, growth, sales, the things that are going to help you grow as a person and grow your business.
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listening as much as I do creating the show for you. All right, I'm out of here.
Peace. Let's get back to this show.
And I hope you enjoy it. Listening as much as I do creating the show for you.

All right.

I'm out of here.

Peace.

Let's get back to the episode.

All right.

So there's, there's lots of unpacked.

I completely, I mean, just, I couldn't agree with you more.

I think that's, that's exactly it.

I mean, that's, that's, I'm going to give you, so you said, I don't, I want to be humble and candid and say, well, I do think we have a great culture. It's got plenty of cracks, you know, so, so just be careful.
If I may, forgive me for interrupting. Yeah.
This is how I know you have a great culture. So let me, let me unpack this in the book, never lose an employee again.
The new book I interviewed hundreds of companies, 50 plus of them made the book, case studies in the book from all seven continents. I think I'm actually the first business book to have a business case from all seven continents, including Antarctica.
Okay. Super fun.
It was exciting for me, you know, fun little experience. Every single interview I did, somewhere in the first five to 15 minutes, the leader that I was interviewing said, you know, Joey, I'm happy to do this interview and talk, but you need to understand we haven't got all this stuff figured out.
We've got cracks in our experience. We're not perfect.
That's how you know you're remarkable. You're remarkable when you have the level of self-awareness to understand that employee experience is never done.
It's not a destination. It's a journey.
And as the marketplace changes, the type of people we're bringing in changes, the type of clients and markets we're serving change, our employee experience is going to evolve. And the companies that think they've got it figured out, friends, I'm sorry, I can pull out a stopwatch and track how much longer you're

going to be in business. Because we are living in an exponential age.
We are living in an age where the change that is happening, not only in terms of the technological change, but the evolutionary change, the physical change, the emotional change, the cognitive change is happening at a rate that is unprecedented in human history. Unprecedented.
We're on the hockey stick going up and we've got a brain that evolved over millennia. Yeah.
And we're being asked to completely renew everything we knew to be true, not 50 years ago, but even 10 years ago. And in some cases, five years ago, and in some cases, like AI,

six months ago. What we knew to be true six months ago is not true today.
The same holds true for your employee experience. And as the world is becoming more uncertain and more chaotic, more employees are looking for grounding, for certainty, for confidence in their life.
And if as an employer, you can provide that, you can provide a space where they feel the ground beneath their feet, where they feel that they're not on shifting sands every step they take, you will be the employer of choice in the marketplace. Yeah.
I'll tell you, I want to go back to your having all the answers thing, because this to me feels like one of the core, especially for mid and small size businesses, not micro businesses, but mid and small size businesses. This feels like one of the main issues that leaders face when it comes to cultural issues is that they feel this burden on their shoulders of having all the answers.
And I'll tell you in the moments moments, so we had a moment, we'll call it, somewhere six months ago, where I could just smell that our culture was off, right? I didn't have any maybe direct, direct feedback, but I could just, little comments here, little nips, little back and forth, and I could just, yeah, something's off, Right. And what I realized was the reason it was off is because I was carrying that burden.
Right. I tried to not do that.
I,

I, I tried to, but for, for that period of time, for things that changed, we're going on.

It was like, I, everyone was looking to me for all the answers and I'm in my bed, uh, crying,

sipping bourbon because I don't have all the answers and I don in my bed crying, sipping bourbon because I don't

have all the answers and I don't know what to do. So I, I actually, I made a couple life changes in terms of just like trying to focus a little.
And what came back to me was one of the original ideas of Rogue, which is being of service. So what I say, what I started saying to the team, I held an all hands meeting the following Tuesday and I said, look, this is my fault.
I said, it's my fault because I haven't been up my job here. You guys think my job is to tell you what to do.
It's not. Frankly, I couldn't do really any of your jobs anymore if I ever could.
I said, my job is solely and squarely to be of service to you. You need to come to me, not with looking for answers, but with answers that I can then help you implement and integrate into the business.
My job is to be of service. So don't, there are things that obviously I can help with or know or have experienced before, but stop coming to me, you know, and I didn't say it exactly this way.
This doesn't, you know, I said it a little with a little more grace, but basically I said, stop coming to me looking for answers. You have the answers.
That's why I hired you. That's why you're in that position.
That's why I trust you. That's why I care about you is because you have the answers.
I don't have the answers. My job is to be of service.
And when we changed that meeting, it took a couple more meetings for them to believe it and kind of fix the cracks that it created. But today, we are firing on as many cylinders as we are capable of firing on at this time.
And I think in large part was due. And then I had to push that down to my next level of managers, right? Your job as the leader of insert division is not to just point fingers and tell people what to do.
It's that be of service to them. And what, hey, you're struggling with this particular function.
Let's talk about what can I do to help make that function? And that concept. And what's crazy about it is I think we yearn for it.
There must be some sort of physiological or psychological thing that I don't necessarily understand yet because whack people just picked that up. And it just, it was like, it was, it was crazy.
It's crazy to think of how quickly we came from what could have been probably a very bad direction. And just, it just changed the whole course of where we're headed.
And it's been wild to watch. Ryan, I love this.
So many thoughts, so many thoughts on this. So yes, it is a yearning.
Dan Pink wrote about this in his fantastic book, Drive, right? What do employees want? They want autonomy. They want the option to make their own decisions.
They don't want to be told what to do. They want to feel empowered to do what's right.
One of the interesting things about putting together a book with so many case studies is I had to make the rule early on that I would only tell one story from any one company, even though there were 30, 40, 50 amazing things they were doing for employees, I had to just pick one because the book cannot be 300,000 pages, right? It needs to be 300 pages. So there's a company I talk about in the book run by some great friends of mine, and the company's called Pila.
And in the book, I talk about something they do called Pila University, how they onboard and train their people over about two months as opposed to two days, which is what most organizations think about onboarding their people. But there's something they do that speaks directly to this.
And their chairman, Brad Pedersen, his good friend of mine, was telling me this. He calls it the one, three, one.
So here's how this works. When people come to Brad, they can come with one problem, not 10, not 12, not 30.
They have to boil it down to one because we can easily talk about all the challenges we're having. And then the conversation in a meeting or in a discussion really never goes anywhere because there's too many different things and too many variables.
So they have to narrow it to one. They can bring one problem.
They can say, Brad, this is what I'm dealing with. Here's the challenge.
They then have to suggest three potential solutions. Not one, not two, three.
Three ways that the problem could be dealt with or responded to. Then before Brad will tell them what he thinks, they have to tell him which one they think should be the one they move forward with.
One, three, one. Wow.
I love that. Brad said as a leader, a significant percentage of the time, he's like, sounds great to me.
Run with that one. Yeah.
That was my response. I was like, but that time they put so much thought into it.
They already know the answer. Correct.
They already know the answer. And now imagine them leaving the meeting going, wow.
I went to the chairman of the board with a problem. I outlined three potential solutions and the chairman let me pick which one we ran with.
The feeling of pride, the feeling of intentionality, the feeling of ownership that comes from that. Absolutely incredible.
Last thought on this. Yeah.
Forgive me for getting a little religious. You're good.
But there's a religious character globally in the Hindu religion that I love called Ganesh. Ganesha is known as the remover of obstacles.
That is his role in the Hindu religion. Forgive me, at least based on my understanding.
I am not Hindu, but I've spent some time in India. I have some friends who are Hindu.
This is how they've explained it to it and based on my own research and reading. So if anybody listening- We will forgive you your- Forgive me.
Any slight deviations. But what I love about this is the title, The Remover of Obstacles.
Yeah. To me, that is your role as a leader.
My role is to serve my people by removing the obstacles to their greatness,

to their best version of their life. If that obstacle, to your point, is feeling a ceiling

on their growth, remove it. If their obstacle is feeling that they don't know how to proceed

forward because it's muck and mire, I need to bring shovels and flashlights to the game to

help them see more clearly or to hold their hand or to prop them up or to lead them forward

I'm going to be heard. My wife and I have been happily, happily married for 13 years now, coming up on 13 here in a couple months.
And one of the great things we adopted early in our relationship that has served, I like to think has served me incredibly well, and she's very gracious to indulge me this, is when she starts to present something she's dealing with, either I will interrupt or sometimes she will say this before and say, am I looking for solutions or am I looking for listening? Oh, I like that a lot. And if she's looking for listening, I just zip it, I close my mouth and I just listen.
And even if I have an idea and I'm like, oh, honey, you should just do this. No, no, no.
That's not what was asked. What was asked was listening.
As a fellow speaker, we were talking about this. If somebody is doing a speech and they come off stage and they say, well, what'd you think, Joey? I say, what are you looking for? Are you looking for feedback? Are you looking for constructive criticism? Are you looking for me to tell you the things I loved, the things I didn't love? What kind of conversation do you want to have right now? Yeah.
Now that catches a lot of humans off guard, Ryan, because most humans don't stop before they give advice. Most humans don't stop before they share their perspective or their ideas to say, what do you actually want right now? Your employees, your team members are exactly the same way.
Ask them what they need. Give them the opportunity.
We had this experience yesterday with my team. We're on a hyper short deadline before a big thing we've been working on for a long time.
And I said to them, there are two projects that we would love to have accomplished by this deadline, but everything in my gut is telling me there's no way that can happen. There's not enough hours in the day.
Do you agree with my gut instinct? And I said, before I even ask that question, the heads are nodding. We can feel the tension.
I've got a team of about three people on this call, three people plus me. So there's four of us.
Said, here's the deal. I'd like to know from each of you, which one we should focus on because we can't do both of them.
So we can only focus on one. So which one do you think we should focus on? And most importantly, and they know this by now, we've been working together long enough.
Why? Tell me your why. What's your reasoning? What's your belief? What's your perspective that makes you give this answer? And then I sat back and was quiet.
And I watched as one person said, well, I think we should do this one. And then another person said, well, I think we should do the other one.
And here's why. And the first person said, you know what? I hadn't thought of that yet.
You're right. I'm now with you.
We should go with option number two. Person number three said, well, Joey, I think there's a possibility that we could get both done.
I said, I appreciate that enthusiasm and attitude. God, I love that about you.
But I'm telling you, there's not enough hours in the day. My job as the leader is to be the realist and say, there's not enough hours in the day.
So coming back to it, if you had to pick one, she said, yeah, it's that same one as the other one. I said, fantastic.
I said, by the way, just so you all know, I was thinking when we started this conversation that it should be the first one. You all have convinced me it should be the second one.
And that's what we're going to do going forward. My hope in that little story and in that little example is my team knew that their opinions are valued, that their opinions are appreciated, and that when presented with their reasoning and logic, I'm willing to go in the direction they think is best, even if I'm not sure, or I may think a different direction is best.
Now, before this gets misunderstood, Ryan, there are times when the leader has to make the call and has to make the call by themselves. This is the nature of leadership.
This is the reason you find yourself in this position in your organization, whether you are the founder, the owner, a manager, doesn't matter. There are times when the decision rises to the level that a choice just has to be made.
One of the, regardless of where you fall on the political spectrum, I heard an interview from President Obama when he was president nearing the end of his term that I thought beautifully summed up the difficulty of being president of the United States. And I had the opportunity to work in the White House in the Office of Counsel to the President.
So I had the opportunity to witness this personally. It was amazing.
And to hear him reiterate that I was not working in his administration. It was years later to hear it from someone else share this perspective.
And he said this, by the time the question gets to my desk, the obvious answers are gone. The easiest answers, the easy, simple solutions, those were figured out before it got to me.
What I'm dealing with is two variations of a not good answer on either one. But I got to pick one because we have to move forward.
So I'm picking it knowing that there's a consequence, knowing that I wish there was a better choice, knowing that there's something else that might be a better solution, but we haven't found it and no one's found it and we've got to move forward. To me, that's the definition of true leadership.
True leadership is being willing to say

when the chips are down, when we've tried all the options, when we've explored the possibilities,

and there's no clear, clean, obvious answer to make a choice. Now that choice could be taking

a course of action. That choice could be stasis.
We're not going to do anything. We're going to

just be in a holding pattern for a while and see if more information presents itself or other

Thank you. choice.
Now that choice could be taking a course of action. That choice could be stasis.
We're not going to do anything. We're going to just be in a holding pattern for a while and see if more information presents itself or other things happen that figure it out.
But all too often, I think leaders miss the opportunity to involve their team in the discussion and leaders miss the opportunity to, when the chips are down, say, you know what,

friends, I'm sorry. A decision has to be made.
We need to move forward. We can't spend any more time in this.
So I will take it on my shoulders to move forward with this path. And if this goes awry, blame me.
That's fine. That's the role that I've signed on to play in this organization.
there's a lot there's like yes I think what you've described is, you need to have trust and humility, right? As a leader, that's pretty common understanding. Where I think a lot of people go wrong is in one of two ways.
They either go hardcore hierarchy, do as I say, don't ask questions, or they go the opposite. They go flat.
Everybody's got an opinion. Everyone's got a voice.
The answer is actually, I mean, it's a benevolent dictatorship is really the answer. And I mean that maybe you don't like the word dictatorship.
I get it. No, no, I have no problem with that.
I have no problem with the phrase dictatorship. The problem I have with the phrase dictatorship is most people completely misunderstand it.
I don't think you do. But people misunderstand it.
No, I understand. They specifically misunderstand it.
What I think, I agree with you. It's not an either or.
It's a yes and. Yes.
There are times where there needs to be hierarchy. There are times when there needs to be plurality.
Yes. And consensus.
The question is, what are you creating in your organization? And what are the topics where a process dictates a decision? And what are the parts of the organization where a conversation dictates the decision? And there need to be both. If we do too much process, we're a hot mess.
If we do too much conversation, we never get anything done. And so it's this interesting blend of what we do.
But what I know to be true is that we are at a time in human history that is unlike any other time.

And what we are being called to do is recognize that the command and control industrial revolution hierarchy structure is not serving the way it used to. Yes.
I would make an argument that it

never served as well as people thought, but let's just save that conversation for another episode.

Yeah. Hopefully we can all agree that it's not working the way we want it to work.

Thank you. I think it had a moment in time when there were things that had to get done in the industrial revolution.
And I agree with you. It probably was not even optimal for its time.
What you can say about that structure, and I'm not advocating for it because it's certainly not how I run my company. But I think if you're going to steal me on that side of the argument, in a short period of time and for a short period of time, you can get a massive amount done if the leader's bet is right.
Right? So if the leader's bet is right, in a short period of time, that type of structure can get a massive amount done.

However, you burn people out.

You eventually fall apart because you have no culture.

And if the leader's bet isn't accurate because he, in most cases, it would be a he.

We're not taking anyone else's feedback.

Then you also went off a cliff. So there are, we read the stories of this structure in the winners and we play winner's bias or whatever it is that confirmation bias confirmation bias of, Hey, look at, look at how it worked for Henry Ford.
Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. Look at the interviews of anybody who worked for Henry Ford.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. They're like, Oh my gosh, this was a nightmare.
Could you produce this stuff? Absolutely. Here's the thing I, I've got two little boys.
Yeah. And one of the things I talk about with them all the time is everything, everything in life is a choice and every choice has consequences and every choice has desired outcomes and undesired outcomes that occur.
So just recognize that we've got a choice and we want to do our best to choose wisely. We're going to have to make choices based on limited information.
We might make a choice that we're going to sprint really hard for a time period. I'm doing that right now.
I mentioned big project, big data. We are sprinting harder than my team, frankly, has ever sprinted before.
And I know that I've pushed the boundaries. and I also know that after this timeline, I darn well better give some time for rest and recharge and recuperate, right? Downshift, and I've already started talking about the downshift.
Okay, by the way, this has a finite end. This is not forever, but we are going to sprint for this time period for a period.
And then we are going to take months, not days, not hours, months to let the dust settle a little.

We're going to continue to work, but we're not going to be working at this speed and this pace.

And we're going to see what happens.

And then we're going to adjust accordingly.

I think there's just so much opportunity to recognize that as Cervantes said, it's the road, not the in. It's not the destination.
It's the journey to get to the destination. You achieve your goals by paying attention to the journey, not by paying attention to, well, what will it be like when we get there? That's fine and dandy.
And that's important to vision cast initially. But then you darn well better be paying attention to the road and the journey because you're going to miss out on a lot of opportunities and beautiful things if you don't.
So you know how I frame this in my head? I frame everything as an experiment or a practice. Everything.
It's an experiment or a practice. What are we doing here? Are we experimenting? Because experiments, some experiments blow up.
Some experiments are amazing. But you know what you do? You learn.
You're right. I say to everybody.
Well, you have the opportunity to learn. Yeah.
I think most leaders don't actually learn from the experiments. They justify why the experiment ended up the way it did without exploring why the experiment didn't go the way they thought it would.
Yeah, I agree with that completely. I tell the team, I go, look, based on the on my assuming the fact that I have Irish heritage and was born under the sign of Aquarius, we are destined to make every mistake that exists.
Our goal is to not make that mistake twice. So let's work through, do the things, be aggressive, work hard, have questions, push boundaries, you know, do things that are outside of what the norm in our industry is.
And if it doesn't work, it's just an experiment. You just won't do it again.
It's super simple. And then the things that do work, right? The things that do work that we do want to implement and make part of our company, we think of them as practices, just as a practice.
It's all it is, just a practice. You show up for practice.
You practice. Sometimes practice goes great.
Sometimes practice doesn't, but it's a practice. And what you do with practice is you just keep doing the practice.
You show up to practice. It's a practice, right? And when you frame these things, I think in people's minds, and some people will tell me that the way that I look at it is word games.
I've had people say that it's a word games. And I'm like, words fucking matter.
Words totally matter. Words totally matter.
Like it is literally the foundation of our ability to communicate in the modern era is words, language. It's a whole thing.
It hugely matters. So when you say these things, and I love the way that you frame all these examples, it's why I enjoy talking to you so much.
It's like, it is so important, not just that you've developed the idea or the concept, but that you frame that concept in words that will have lasting meaning to your people and lasting meaning in the way that you want it to be there. Right.
So, you know, I talk about humility a lot and I try to practice it. I always take, I take full responsibility for everything, even if I had nothing to do with it, not to get people off.
Right. But what, what we'll talk to is, Hey, look, that thing you did, that wasn't the best thing.
We didn't love that thing. But what we're going to do is work with you to create a new practice and make sure that doesn't happen again, right? It's my fault.
We didn't have a practice for that. I will work on my part of that, of creating a practice for you.
Your part is that you follow that practice and you don't let it happen again. How does that, does that sound good? That sounds great.
Okay. And if they say no, well, then we just kick them to the curb.
No, I think that the way that you described your conversation with your team pushing for this goal is exactly the framework that I hope people try to develop, that you have the trust and humility in yourself as a leader to ask your people for their opinion, to listen to their opinion, to take it seriously, and then to be willing to change your mind if they make an argument that suits. And I feel like if you give that to your, as a gift, it's a gift, you're giving a gift to your team.
You're saying, here, I am willing to exchange my authority as the leader because the buck stops with me. I'm willing to exchange some of that with you in exchange for you doing some of the work of coming up with that ideas.
If you will afford me the privilege of because the buck stops with me when it is necessary, I get to make this call and you trust that I'm doing it only in situations and where it's necessary. And if you can develop that relationship with your team, man, the shit that happens that comes out of nowhere, the things that get solved, all of a sudden problems get solved.

Like I'll show up and it'll be like, problem solved, problem solved, problem solved. I'll be like, no one asked, who am I? They're like, yeah, we didn't need you for any of that.
I'm like, okay, great. Ryan, it's so true.
I think if there was one takeaway that I would ask listeners to consider is, are you looking for automatons or free thinkers in your organization? Now, as I've said before, everything in life is a choice and choices have consequences. In some circumstances, you might be like, Joey, if I could just get automatons who do what I ask them to do, man, my life would be easier.
Sure, it would in many ways, but would also be worse. Hey, Joey, I want free thinkers.
I want people that take responsibility, that actually make choices. They don't have to come with me for everything.
Well, guess what? Then they're not going to come to you with everything, and some eggs are going to get broken, and some mistakes are going to get made, and things are going to be done in a way that you wouldn't have done them. And that may be good or bad depending on the circumstance, but get clear about the kind of person you want and then build that in your job posting, your position advertisement, build it into your interviewing process, build it into your hiring process, your onboarding process, your retention process, your offboarding process.
By the way, how you offboard an employee when they go somewhere else or they're fired is just as important as how you onboard them. And yet most businesses pay no attention to this.
What is the full journey and what are you hoping to accomplish? Keeping the eye on that prize, I think that pays huge dividends in return. Where do they get the book? Where do they connect with you guys? I've said this before on the show.
I'll say it again. Joey is just one of the best.
I mean, I know I've, I've stroked your ego quite a bit, but it is due. And I hope they connect with you on wherever your preferred places are and go get this book.
This, the number one thing I'm getting asked to speak about, I'm not even an expert on this topic is how do we hire people? How do we hire more people who will be engaged in whatever, like they see the culture that we have. I'm not even an expert.
I'm getting hired to speak on it. This is the guy people.
This is the guy right here. Like, you know what I mean? I, well, pay me, but then also pay Joey.
I love it. I love it.
Yeah. Ryan, I so appreciate the conversation.
So the book is called never lose an employee again, and it's available in whatever format you like to consume books. So if you like hard covers, so you can write the margins and take notes and highlight what you want.
You've got it in that format. If you're a Kindle or a Nook reader, and you like to be able to kind of scroll through and read, we've got that version.
And if you'd like the sound of my voice in our conversation today, we've got an audio book that I narrate. So I will actually read the book to you.
It's available wherever you would get your books or your reading materials. Go out and check it out.
By the way, I'll just put it in the side. If you buy the book and you don't get value from the book, you send me an email.
My email's all over the book. You send me an email and you say, Joey, I didn't get the value.
I don't see how it can apply to our organization. And I'll refund the cost of the book that you paid.
That's how confident I am that you're going to be able to find at least a nugget or two, and hopefully a lot more that are applicable to your workplace, your environment, what you're trying to do with your people. The other place you can find me is on my website, joeycoleman.com.
That's J-O-E-Y, like a five-year-old or a baby kangaroo. Coleman, C-O-L-E-M-A-N, like the camping equipment, but no relation, joeycoleman.com.
If you're on the socials, I know Ryan's on the socials, I'm not on the socials as much, Find me over on LinkedIn. That's the place to find me.

Anywhere else you'll find accounts, but they're for lurking, not for posting. So come over to LinkedIn and I'll see you there.
And like I said, I so appreciate your time, Ryan,

inviting me to the show, but respectfully and more importantly, I appreciate all the time to

everybody who listened into our conversation. I hope you had as much fun and learned as much

as I learned from talking to Ryan and getting the chance to chat with him.

You're the man. Thank you.

Thanks, buddy.

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