RHS 181 - Leaving Captivity for the Good Life with James Jenkins

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In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home. Hello everyone and welcome back to the show.
Today we have an absolutely tremendous episode for you, a conversation with James Jenkins, the man with the voice. Big fan of James.
We actually had the opportunity to work together a couple weeks ago. We both were presenting to Assure Alliance, which is in South Carolina.
Had a chance to talk to an audience of probably a couple hundred plus. It was a pretty incredible experience because my way is definitely different from James's.
And as he mentions in the podcast, it was probably like some sort of trippy experience to have me ranting and raving and walking back and forth and all the crazy contextual crap and cursing. And then he comes in and he kind of stands next to the podium.
It's very professorial presentation and he prepares to the nth degree. And my way is more while plan, I kind of have a start and a finish, and then I have no idea how I'm going to get there.
It was just very fun and interesting and dynamic. And then to have a chance to follow that up with this podcast conversation, pretty incredible.
And really, James is here to talk about his new book, Leaving Captivity, which is awesome. I had a chance to read an early copy and give him notes, which we discuss as well.

This book, whether you're a captive agent actually leaving the captive environment and thinking about starting your own independent or you're a producer in an agency and you're thinking about starting

your own independent or you actually are a principal or working in an agency and you're

completely happy, this book has something for you. It really does.
It's dynamic and fun and I think

it's very uniquely James and well worth a read for any insurance wonks out there. Although even

Even if you're not in the insurance industry and for some reason you listen to this podcast, you will still get something out of it, I promise. Before we get to James, I want to give a quick shout out to Tivly.com.
T-I-V-L-Y.com. T-I-V-L-Y.com.
Tivly as in positively. Tivly.com.
Used to be commercialinsurance.net. Guys, we continue to integrate our business deeper and deeper and deeper with Tivoli or intertwine, I guess is a better way to put it because they've just become such a tremendous partner for us in so many of the different things that we do, everything from ramping up new producers to targeting certain markets to targeting certain classes.
They are a core bedrock piece of our business and I couldn't be happier for them just as a partner, whether they sponsor the show or not, but also honored when one of our partners decides that they want to talk to you guys and get in front of you guys. And for the partners that I think add real value, I love sharing how we use these tools and how I think they could be valuable for you.
So go to tivly.com and if you want to give. And if you want to give me a shout out, you say, hey, Hanley sent me.
But there's no like function for that. They just, you know, they know when they see amazing agents reach out to them that they must be listeners.
I can't even say it with a straight face. They must be listeners to this show.
That being said, guys, I love you for listening to the show. You know that.
I'm trying to put more and more work into Finding Peak as well. That's where I'm doing a lot of written content, nerding out on some topics, doing deep dives outside of insurance, right? All the stuff that we don't talk about a lot, our health, our mentality, leadership skills, business ideas, personal development, because all these things impact our business as well.
And then I also do, you know, kind of nerdy deep dives and a lot of things that we learned and I recently shared. If you go to Finding Pete today, you'll see the opening open-ended question is the first in a five video series that I'm doing around our inbound digital sales process.
And if you become a subscriber to that series, then you also can download the PDF, which basically I've given to every one of our salespeople. We talk through it with our entire team, and it is really the outline for how we do business when it comes to inbound digital sales and selling.
So if you want that, go there. But as always, you don't have to.
I love you for listening to this show. Regardless, I think you're all absolutely amazing, and I hope you crush the day.
All right, with that, let's get on to James Jenkins. What's up, dude? I picked the wrong time to put sushi in my mouth crap i should have known better because you're going to start recording and airing this crap the second that we get on yeah what if we say something smart and the recorded button hasn't been hit yet i mean you make a valid point i really can't argue with you i mean it's definitely happened in a-minute period where I've talked a lot and not said one smart thing, so I don't want to miss any of them.

Well, you said it, not me, man. I'm not going to start by being smart with the host.

Hey, let me – I got to grab some liquid something or else my throat is going to get dry. One go ahead we got some bougie water there you got the you got the bougie water on water is that what i see yeah it's topo chico i'm completely bougie it's the little things in life man i left because we had that bag for all this stuff because i thought we're going to record at hilton head yeah my good headphones are sitting in the bag in my backpack at home so i've got like 15 year old apple air whatever's in one of those good news is in the modern podcasting world i don't know that anybody cares i could be right i do care about things that most people don't care about yeah that's

as my wife says

yeah you know

hey and that's fine that's the way

it should be I mean you

it's more than

a hobby to you you like it

you nerd out on it and those little

things matter and I think that's great

I think that you know

the reason I make comments like that is important is important for people. I think for people to understand that that isn't necessary, it's important to you because of, you know, this is something you nerd out on and you love it.
And it's a hobby, you know, like I said, it's more than a hobby for you. Like you, you really enjoy it and it's something you're passionate about.
And that's great. And I, audio quality and all that stuff.
It's great. I mean, I don't produce the video and, but I'm sure many of you listening have seen James's background, but it's lit up the backlights and the neon.
It's awesome. I could just give two flying fucks about any of that stuff.
Personally. I think it's amazing.
That doesn't mean I don't think it's amazing. I do.
I think it looks gangster as hell. I just personally could care less.
Have you heard the story about bump the lamp no roger rabbit no dude it this is you can tuck this away in your in your story vault i heard this at a at a conference a few years ago uh and man it's stuck with me ever since robert zemeckis director of Who Framed Roger Rabbit, which at its day was absolutely revolutionary. Like it was amazing.
The Matrix level revolutionary for cinema at the time. So the the art people frame by frame, they were like hand drawing every frame, 24 frames per second.
So, I mean, literally thousands of frames throughout the movie. And there's this one scene in the movie when uh i forget the the guy's name the human the old

older guy he's trying to put roger rabbit in handcuffs and there's this scene because there's

there's a lamp in the middle of the table in this scene and they're just like wrestling and roger

rabbit bumps the lamp in the script.

But it created this back and forth swinging motion that was absolute nightmare for the artist to do to their level of satisfaction.

So they reach out to Roberts and Mac and like, hey, man, can we not bump the lamp?

Like, it's a little thing.

Most people aren't even going to care.

It's such a pain.

Can we please just not bump the lamp and move on about it?

Thank you. lamp like it's a little thing most people aren't even going to care it's such a pain can we please just not bump the lamp and move on about it and zemeckis writes back to the artist team he says simply bump the lamp yeah and the story is most people won't care most people won't notice yep but the ones that do that two percent that will be freaking cool to them and they will remember it forever because the ones that care really care and so like that whole notion of yeah bump the lamp do the extra two percent is now now the next time you think of roger rabbit you're gonna be like hey what scene was that lamp in yeah i actually know the scene was in eddie valiant's office you're a fan okay oh fuck yeah i love who framed roger that movie's amazing it's amazing it is so weird in the most beautiful way yeah and like so so for people who haven't

seen who framed roger abbott which would mean that you were a weirdo and you probably shouldn't

be listening to this show if that's the case um but like this is the first there was another movie

Thank you. which would mean that you were a weirdo and you probably shouldn't be listening to this show if that's the case.
But like, this is the first, there was another movie called cool world that tried to do this first and it wasn't very good. And who frame Roger rabbit came out really close and was actually, I think second.
I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure that who frame Roger rabbit was second in the integration of cartoons and, or animation and live action so you have this guy this character eddie valiant who's played by bob haskins um i had to look the bob haskins part up i remembered that eddie value i was about to say bravo yeah no i knew i had to look up the bob haskins part i knew eddie valiant but um but uh uh so eddie valiant's the main character and he's a human he's you know and then and then there's this toon world on the other side of this tunnel which is all cartoons and it's all like the wacky old school looney tunes and disney characters like a hodgepodge of and like when i remember watching that as a kid i'm like what like tune like cartoon genre is cartoon genre is this? Cause it had, you know, bugs bunny, but it also had Betty Boop.
And I was like, this is just wild. And, um, it's, you know, there's this whole thing that plays out, which is really funny, but, um, but it's, uh, it is, it was a, it was a very interesting movie at the time.
And I, and I, I just, I loved it. I thought it was so funny and it was so funny.
And just what a cool concept to think that there's this world through a tunnel that's like cartoon characters. And it was also, you know, it had it had good.
It had comedy before woke made all movies terrible. So like this is like from what, the 80s? 1988.
Yeah, I looked it up. So, you know, this is when people could still be funny and interesting.
And like, you know, there's sexism both ways. And there's guys getting kicked in the groin.
And, you know, there's just all these, you know, sex references. And like Jessica Rabbit is like this ridiculous character, you know, caricature of like this voluptuous woman in this ridiculous dress with red hair.
And she's married to Roger Rabbit, who is like this bananas, like looks like a cartoon. And it's just the whole thing is wild.
But to your point, there's a lot of stuff in there that if you're a nerd, you'll never forget that movie. Yeah.
Bump the lamp, baby. All the normies out there are like, what are you two morons talking? Well, they've already stopped listening.
They moved on. Or they just didn't click.
Is it like Jenkins and Hanley? Nah, pass. So I was talking to my counselor.
She doesn't like it when I called her a therapist the other day. I was talking to her, and I think I've shared with everybody on the show that like about this year since since since my divorce um i've kind of realized or been diagnosed is probably a better way to put it with having adhd which whatever most people zero people are surprised at this yeah that probably doesn't surprise a lot of people and not that i was surprised but i certainly fought it for a long time because i i of, I didn't understand what it meant, what it was, doesn't matter.
And so I was telling my counselor, I was like, I've gotten more in tune with how to, what it has allowed me to do is communicate with people better. Because now when I'm talking to someone who I know doesn't have ADHD, I try very hard to be more focused, more linear in my thought patterns, talk a little slower.
And I refer to these people as normies. Which is not normal at all.
Yeah. And she's like, well, that sounds a little derogatory.
And I was like, well. I said, I don't mean it to be.
But then I said, maybe I kind of do at the same time. I don't know.
Like so many people have given me shit for so long about how scattered I am or how fast I talk or whatever. And and I'm like, this is kind of like my little subtle jab to say say like, Hey, I feel like I've kind of harnessed this superpower.
And, um, you know, you normies can't keep up. That's, that's your fault.
You know, I don't know. You and I are very close in age.
And when we were growing up, they didn't really have these diagnoses that came around like a decade later i've never been officially diagnosed

adhd but if you asked my wife or anybody on my team i i guarantee you all of them be like oh yeah he definitely has adhd i had adderall for a number of years i got off of it because it made me a really unpleasant person to be around yeah yeah i uh i was using i was using pot for a while to manage my brain.

But I recently stopped about a month ago. Um, even though Cass and I talked a lot about it on the episode that I did with him, uh, it was an interesting episode by the way.
Yeah, that was fun. That was a fun one.
Um, y'all got into it. It wasn't.
Yeah. Knowing both of you individually, it was like, Oh man, where's my popcorn? Let's go.
Yeah. That's how we talked.
I mean, that, that's knowing both of you individually it was like oh man where's my popcorn let's go yeah that's how we talked i mean that that's like a i it was funny cast after we stopped cast goes dude i freaking forgot that we were recording that for a while he's like i completely forgot and i was like yeah me too i was we were just talking um but like i think you know what so so so that was recorded like maybe a say a or so before it aired. And now we're like a month or so after it aired.
So about a month ago, I quit because what I found is similar to like the Adderall thing that while, yes, it helps me pull in all these different things that are happening in my brain at one time, and I can be much more focused. Um, one, it has to be a very specific, um, very specific levels of THC and CBD.
If, if like high THC content, like super like these 30, uh, 30 percenters or whatever, that shit, I can't handle that. That, that does not work for me at all.
I feel terrible. And then, but if I get the right mix and it's like such a pain in the ass, because if it's not the right mix and I just, I don't feel very good.
And what it absolutely does is it destroys my creativity, destroys my creativity. When I, when I am consistently using pot, uh, I just am not as creative.
I'm not as sharp. I don't like it.
Um um i do find i'm more manic though when i'm off of it so like i have more more times when like i'm a little more manic which i have to get better at controlling but like the the the um and by manic i mean i let my emotions get out over my skis so you guys know what that means like yeah um like i'll an example yesterday. So yesterday, one of my team members who's been with us for two years, she has her annual review because we do our reviews in April.
And, and she shares that she got another job offer and she's considering it. She's a highly valued member of the team.
I want to keep her. I've a couple things personally for her that it really it like hurt my feelings and i know you're not supposed to do that i know you're not supposed to get attached or whatever but i was like holy shit like i've like done some things off the books for her to help her in different situations because that's what we do um and it's a human game we're playing it was like, it was like getting punched in the gut.
You know, I felt like getting punched in the gut, um, that I'm like, and I just started going down this rabbit hole in my brain of like, I'm too nice to these motherfuckers. Like I'm way too nice to them.
Like we have this culture and it's family and we get along and everyone, and we take care of each other. And I take care of my people.
If you work here, even if I don't really like you, I'm going to take care of you because you work here. You're part, you're in the circle, right? That's the way it is.
It's like a family, even if it's not. And, and, and I know that every book would tell you detach from the outcome.
And this is, this is business and it's the way it is. And I do think that that's a better way to think about it.
in general, or I don't want to say better. That is a way to think about it that allows you to

defend against these types of feelings. But I felt myself starting to get out over my skis,

because I was hurt. You know what I mean? I felt like, Oh my God, like I, I am, I would like to believe that I am absolutely a servant leader.
And I tell people that like, my job is, is to be in service of my team members so that they can be the best versions of themselves. That's really my job is.
And, and it just really was a gut punch. And I can feel myself going into my next meeting.
I was like, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. And it was, it was just, I was off the hook.
I couldn't slow down. I couldn't, I couldn't rein it in.
I was just full on because I had let my emotions kind of get ahead of me. And that's when I say manic, that's what I mean.
I just, you turned into a bulldozer and whatever was in front of you was going to get plowed. Yes.
And, and thankfully the woman that I was meeting with was capable of accepting it and understands and it was fine. And actually it was productive, but it was just, I got done with the meeting and I literally went for a 25 minute walk around my neighborhood to kind of like bring myself back in because I had, I had, I had allowed myself.
Now here's the weird part. When I'm, when I, when I'm consistently using pot, that doesn't happen as much, right? I'm I, that doesn't happen.
But the problem is the reason it doesn't happen is because I'm dulled. And with that dulling, yes, I don't get out over my skis emotionally, but I also can't be creative and connective.
And I don't feel razor sharp, which I really like. I really like that it is both a blessing blessing and a curse, but I, I really like that for whatever reason, God has given me this edge and, um, anything that dulls it.
I really don't like, so I quit about a month ago. Good for you, man.
That was a very long winded way of saying I quit smoking pot a month ago. Well, and I think it's important because it speaks to individual decision making that aligns with what you're about.

You know, as we'll talk about later in the episode, like it also, I mean, chapter one, vision, mission, and values that frames the conversation and serves as a good basis for decision-making. And you decided that, that you know regularly smoking pot is not in alignment with your values and and what you're shooting for yeah in your daily performance and your ability to remain sharp so we have different ways of saying exactly the same thing but it was just that behavior was out of alignment with who you want to be and yeah and what what expressions of your values you want to manifest yeah i think that you know i think one of the hard things that i think we we all struggle with and and you know you you talk about this a little bit about in your book and i want to talk a little bit about the editing process and all that kind of stuff, too.

I'm an open book.

Yes.

Yeah.

Nice.

You know, the I think that.

So I listen to Andy Fursella a lot from he used to do the MFCEO project.

Now his podcast called Real AF, you know, he gets he gets knocked on sometimes because he is very pro America, very pro freedom and he curses a lot. But he's the 75 hard guy, right? Yes.
First, he owns first form and supplement super stores and he's based on St. Louis.
And, and when I first started listening to him, I was I was like, you know, he just, the curses were a lot. And even though I like to curse, it's like, take however much, if you listen to this show, however much I curse, it's like three X how much I curse.
Right. So like, it's a lot, but, and I was like, yeah, I didn't really get it.
And the more I listened to him, the more I realized, the more I started to like him. Right.
And I was like, yeah, he cursed a lot. Okay.
And I don't, I don't personally have a problem with it. It just, at first I wasn't sure if it was a stick or not.
I don't like it's kind of distracting to me. Yeah.
You, I will say it used to be, I also think that he's matured a little bit over the last few years and it's, it doesn't seem as it used to be kind of shock jockey. And now it just feels

more, it's a little, I don't know, it feels more integrated into the show or whatever. It's fine.
Um, but what I, what I've taken from him and listening to him so much and like, I've never done 75 hard. I've, I want to, but to be honest with you, I love, I like, I like drinking too much, which I do.
It's probably terrible, but I do. And I don't care.
I want to, on a Saturday, I want to be able to pour myself a nice glass of whiskey or bourbon or whatever. And I want to relax with my, you know, out on my porch.
And that's what I want to do. I just, I like it.
The whole point of 75 hard is mental toughness and grit and resilience. Yes.
You're in the gym regularly. You're a fit guy.
You're, you're physically strong. You're mentally strong.
And in a lot of ways, I don't know if you need 75 hard. Well, people out there that consider themselves undisciplined.
Yeah. There's definitely a lot of gain from that, but for folks like you and I, I don't know if there's that much water in that well, you know?

Well, yes and no. Yes.
Yes. In that versus someone who's 50 pounds overweight, isn't hitting their sales goals, can't seem to get out of their way, is very unhappy with how they wake up every morning, their station in life.
Yes, I have a tremendous amount of more discipline and so do you than that person. But I also, my goals are, the goals that I have, the more I get focused on where I want to take my career, the number of people that I want to impact, the real impact I want to have on this industry, you know, the bigger things.
Like right now, we're just getting Rogue going, right? We're just getting it producing revenue. We're getting us producing premium.
We're doing some of the like blocking and tackling foundational shit. But like just having a productive agency, I mean, we'll be doing probably a million in premium a month by the end of the year.

That's nothing.

I want to do 10 million in premium a month.

And I want to place 100 to 200 new agencies

with either Rogue Risk, Rogue Risk agencies

or SI member agencies.

I want to place somewhere between 100 and 200

new producers every year.

Like I want to be a mechanism of growth.

And I have all these plans to do that.

I'm going to go. agencies.
I want to place, you know, somewhere between 100 and 200 new producers every year.

Like I want to be a mechanism of growth and I have all these plans to do that and whatever.

And like those things don't take even, even slightly above average discipline. Like there's part of me that's like, all right, if we're going to really play this game and see how good we can

be, we kind of have to go even a step further. And that was a big part of the pot thing was like, I mean, dude, there's nothing better than after a long stressful day at nine o'clock, rolling yourself a doobie and, and, and sitting out on the porch and hanging out.
I mean, it's fucking great. But then when you wake up the next morning and you feel like you can't hit your diary or your journal very well, or you don't really, you're not really motivated to read or you're struggling to get a blog post out or, or, or even be creative in the way you handle an email or a conversation or a Slack message because you're a little foggy.
That's unacceptable. You know, I mean, to me, I mean, that's, that's, that's the point is that that shit is fine.
If you want to be a producer, I just want to be a producer, make a couple hundred thousand bucks, go to local events, pound my chest, bang my wife or my husband, whatever, my spouse, whatever my other person is. And like, that's fine.
That's what you want to do. And there's nothing wrong with that lifestyle.
But, you know, I think for me, certainly, I think also from you and the different things that conversations we have, I think that you have to hold yourself to an even higher standard. And that is what I've taken from this Annie Frisella guy is that there is, there's being a slob, there's adding some discipline to your life, and you can get 80% of the way there to where you want to be with just even even the smallest amounts of, right? Just a small, pick a thing or two, maybe just reading in the morning and going for a walk or you, you know, journaling every morning and brain dumping and taking a cold shower, pick two things and do those two things and your life will change dramatically.
But if you want to go to another level, if you want to play a game that most read about in books, you have to hold yourself to a higher standard. And that is where I will say right now, my discipline falls apart.
Yeah, no, that makes sense. No, there, there was something in me that shifted.
And I forget exactly when it happened. I wasn't paying that close of attention to the internal dialogue but during the process of writing the book when I it was somewhere between sending it out to the six of you um and like getting to the end where it's like okay this this is ready like it's going to get published this is what people are going to see somewhere in there I forget who it was that I sent it to, but they, they said, this is, you know what it was? I just remembered.
Sorry. I'm thinking out loud here.
It was the guy that I recorded the audio book with. He's a client.
Yep. Owns a music and recording studio in Frisco and he's outside the industry.
He doesn't know anything about any of this stuff. He's totally not even remotely remotely close to the target audience but we're recording in his studio and we get done we're i have for two or three chapters and he's like i read a lot of books this is really good i was like man thank you like yeah you don't really know me you certainly don't know the industry that i come from so the fact that he i mean chapter two is all about headspace and discipline and like grits and whatnot and chapter three is talking about time and you know extracting the most value from your minutes and hours and it was like this has nothing to do with insurance at all it has absolutely zero to do with insurance yeah it's about being a good business owner good entrepreneur you know an effective you know person in an enterprise situation but it you know what you're right mr so-and-so who's outside the industry this you don't have to be an agency owner or a producer or aspire to be one of those two to get something out of it.
It was like, it dawned on me at that point. It's like, why can't people think of me at some point in the future? Obviously, I'm nowhere near there yet.
But people refer to, you know, Patrick Lencioni all the time. It's like he's written some really effective books.
I'm never going to be a Simon Sinek or Ryan Holiday or whatever. But who's to say I can't be someone who has that kind of impact like those guys have had on me, like Angela Duckworth and other people that write books that have real impact.
Those people have changed how I do business. A lot of them, like John Maxwell, for instance, as just a one-off, have changed how I do life.
Like they've changed the decisions that I make. Andy Prezella, a good example.
That's impact that goes way beyond money, that goes way beyond business success. And I know it's ridiculous because it's something that only people with money say, but the money is not that important at a certain point yet you're struggling to make money because you don't have that much and you got to make your mortgage and your car payment and whatnot but after a little bit of success you're like wait a second the money's just a way of keeping score it's not really important at all yeah that's something that for sales is all the time you know and and so i have two thoughts on this particular uh vein of conversation and one is and i don't think you're being this way so don't please don't take it that way but some of the like don't think about the money money doesn't matter like that vein of conversation sometimes depending on the person i find it very patronizing because i'm like motherfucker you make half a million dollars a year like and you're telling me money doesn't matter like fuck you you know like yeah like i just said it's people with money tend to say that yes so but so i think there's i think you know and and this is one again one of the things that i like about for sale and so i don't want to take credit for his thought but he'll say all the time like step number one is make enough money to survive.
So before you think about personal excellence and, you know, all this crazy shit, you got to go get a job that makes you enough money that you're not living on your parents' couch that you, you know, you have your own car, like get your basic life shit squared away. Okay.
Do that for six months, live that life, pay your bills, make sure your phone stays on. And then, and okay, now, now, now you have that you've kind of set whatever you need to do in place and have routines and habits, a job so that your basics are there.
Now you start to make the small incremental changes that allow you to work towards that next level. Because I agree with you, like,

you know, you, it is, you know, you do hit a certain amount of personal income where you stop thinking about money all the time. But I, I do think that, you know, to some people who hear

that, they're like, Jesus, you know, I, I'm, I'm on zero every Friday before the paycheck comes,

like you're telling me to take cold showers and go for runs and, you know, read books. And I'm like,

Thank you. I'm on zero every Friday before the paycheck comes.
Like you're telling me to take cold showers and go for runs and, you know, read books. And I'm like, I'm like stressed to the max, because I can barely get out of my own way.
And on Fridays, I'm staring at a zero bank account and hitting refresh on the chase screen until the money hits, you know, like, it's a really, it's a really difficult thing for people. And I think that, you know, what happens is we get set in these routines, we surround ourselves with people that make us feel comfortable.
And, you know, to some of the stuff in your book, and what you're trying to do with the whole larger concept of leaving captivity is that, you know, in particular, I think we could we could put in an entire genre of people, captive agents that are seemingly not the very few that make it past escape velocity, agents inside of agencies that have no real future, right? They're just always just gonna be an agent and they're unhappy with that. And when I say just an agent, I do wanna put the caveat on it.
Some people love being an agent and that is completely fine. I think in all these scenarios, it is important to remember that what, what, what, what the people James is writing his book to that I talk about are the people who are in these situations and are unhappy with that station, not the people.
Yes. And that doesn't mean wanting more is right.
Right. It comes a lot of trade-offs that you have to make in your life.
But, but if you do, that kind of the thought process so um kind of going all the way back so you sent me the rough draft or some version one of the iterations of a rough draft of this and i made it through the first chapter and sent it back to you and uh you made it further than chapter one this time i hope i did yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah um will, if I'm being candid, I blew through some parts just because I kind of got the gist of it. But I read a lot of it.
I thought you did a really good job. I was very happy with versus what I read the first time.
I was very happy with what I read the second time because I think it was much closer to your best work. And you'll never get all the way there.
I'll never get all the way there. And um, but I thought it drives me insane.
Yeah. Yeah.
You can't, you can't even expect that. But I, so, so talk me through a little bit.
Um, you know, I, you send this out or whatever. And you said you're one of the only people like that, you know, most people send back like, Hey, good job or whatever.
And I was like, this is almost unreadable to me. Yeah.
It was really interesting to me, the different approaches to feedback, because you were on brand for how you are. You were an absolute savage and basically said, if we weren't friends, I wouldn't have made it past the first page this is you know very heady wordy self-important drivel is basically what it wasn't quite that harsh but it was i here's the thing i'm always going to be way harsher on myself than literally anyone else on the planet you could have said this is absolute shit and i would have been like okay well there i see that perspective yeah but i mean like caruthers wrote back i think it was two sentences he was like yeah it's good and i forget what the what but his he's so high level because he's into 48 000 different things yeah and i was grateful to have any feedback from all of y'all and siara was i mean basically early stage kind of feedback of hey i appreciate you talking about

x because i don't really know about that yet and that was basically where she came at it from

and then don and roe polzinski just chopped the chapter five to pieces the financial chapter and chapter six is about social stuff and like relationships and i was a little pessimist uh at the first draft and don and ro were like do you really feel this way about your peers in the industry about how most people are not impressive? Most people in the industry are kind of, I was like, if I'm being honest, yeah, most people in the industry are average at best, mediocre performers who don't try nearly as hard as they're capable of trying because they have other things that they care more about. And that's not that they're bad people.
I'm'm not saying that at all i'm just saying they're not like moonshot performers and in phoenix one of the lines that i'm i'm giving in my keynote and i think this is coming out after we're probably what a month out from this airing ish yeah okay it Okay. It'll be around.
It'll be probably around Phoenix or just after. What's up, guys? Sorry to take you away from the episode.
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All right, I'm out of let's get back to the episode one of the lines that I'm I have in that keynote is average is subjective for instance most of you in this room are average and I'm not saying that as this is basically direct word for word what I'm saying from stage I don't say that as an insult I say that as a statistical reality of this set of people in this room right now.

Most of you are in the statistical middle of the bell curve of the people in this room right now. And it's like, if you want to be more than the statistical average of whatever the population is, you've got to do things to move beyond average.
You have to act and behave and think in ways that open the door to north of average. And most people never get there for whatever reason.
And Don and Ro were like, I think you need to take that really big negativity out and find a different way to say that because you're insulting most of your peers. And I'm like, valid.
Okay. Let me find a different way of saying that.
Because I definitely don't intend to insult my peers. If anything, it's more remind them of what they're capable of and invite the ones that want it to come on.
Yeah. I think the important caveat there is want it in insurance, right? Cause like, there's a guy, there's a couple of agents that I know that like, they love, you know, like cooking and smoking meat.
And if you go on, you know, they just, they love it and it's what they do. And they take these beautiful pictures and it's amazing.
And they're, they're great insurance agents, but they're not as great insurance agents as they are at making these delicious meat candy. And it's what they love it.
And they serve it to their family and everyone comes over and it's this big thing. And that's what they love to do where they, they love playing golf, right? Maybe they'll never be.
So it's like, I think what we always have to remind ourselves of is like, like if you're going to, you know, and this is one of the things that people always say, you know, like the buying courses and people never use them. And I think the problem is people buy courses because they haven't yet figured out that insurance isn't what they want to be the thing they're the best at.
Yeah, it is, which is completely fine. And frankly, I don't want to be the thing they're the best at.
Yeah. It is, which is completely fine.
Yeah, it is. And frankly, you know, I don't want to be the best insurance salesperson.
I don't want to be the best insurance. Well, I do.
I would like to be the best insurance marketer. I don't think I will be.
But I do think that there are certain, there are all kinds of different things that we can pick. And the key is to be disciplined in the actions that make you the best at the thing that you actually want to be the best that you can be at.
And that doesn't have to be insurance, or it could be some subset of the insurance industry, or it could be, you just want to dominate the world, eat people's lunch, step on throats and stand on top of the mountain, given the flex sign and a big

F you. And it all just depends on what your, what your goals are.
But none of that happens without discipline and without focus. I agree.
And the main reason why I'm never going to try to be that guy is there's always a bigger dog. No matter what success you reach, unless you're one out of eight billion and you happen to win the genetic lottery and you have buckets of hustle and you're at the right place at the right time and you're Elon Musk.
Everybody, there's only one best, but every best is subjective because what metrics are we using? What filters are we using to determine best? And the idea of best, I think, is ridiculous. And like Simon Sinek said in his book, The Infinite Game, which was one of my absolute favorite reads in the last several years.
Great read. It's like better is better than best because best is totally subjective.
Better is objective. Better is a lot more measurable than best because you can take what you used to be.
You can take what you are and you can have an objective measurement that says I'm better. Yeah, best is totally subjective and worthless in my mind.
Well, the other thing, too, is and there's some studies around this that like the whole concept of best doesn't actually give us purpose. We find the most purpose and ultimately purposes, derivative happiness when we are, when we believe we are at our best, right? So that, so best is really a goal meant to be, and probably, and I liked the way you positioned it that you know with the with the better it's really about are you the best you can be and that and that really you know when i talk about world domination all this kind of stuff yeah i'm being kind of facetious and i think it's fun and i like it like annoys people which also makes me happy but um you like that gladiator shtick that aligns with your personality yeah it aligns with the brand that you've crafted.
You're you're rebel. You're irreverent.
You don't care what people think. And what you just said aligns perfectly with this persona that you've spent the last almost 20 years crafting.
But it's also, I will say, in the last year, because, you know, one of the things that getting divorced has allowed me to do is spend a lot more time being self-reflective and, um, you know, introspective and all that kind of stuff is that I've really tried to focus on when I, when I make that joke about world domination, what I'm talking about really is I want to see what I'm capable of. I will rogue will never be as big as Marsh or some mega agency or whatever that just, doesn't have to be.
That's the purpose. That's not the purpose of being, I don't care if we're ever in the top 100.
But I guess my goal is, and I'll feel, I want to be able to say, I figured out what my best was. I figured it out.
I experienced it. My best, the best that I could do.
I, I got to that point that was, you know, no matter where that ranks me and whatever, I could literally care less because, and I'll never, you know, and there's certain clubs I'll never be asked to join because of the way that I am. I just, you know, I won't be asked to join certain clubs.
You know, I've been, I've been specifically kicked out of certain clubs in the insurance industry. So, you know, there's, there's places I will never get to or be part of or whatever.
And that's perfectly fine. But I, I think, and I, and I, I guess this is a hope that I have for our peers is that we, we find we someday, we, we can say at the end of our careers, whenever that is, man, you

know what?

I figured out what my best was.

I got there.

I had moments.

I was there for a period of time where, man, I just was locked in.

Things were cooking.

We were doing great.

Made some awesome decisions.

Met some great people.

Did things I never thought were possible.

And that feels really good. I think the people who get to the end of the career, and they feel a little bitter, or unhappy or confused about what to do next.
So much of that is, I think in their heart of hearts, they know they didn't try as hard as they possibly could. And that, that there's something off in our soul there.
I think our I think our soul knows that knows that I think I think that there's something off in our soul there. I think our soul knows that.
I think that there's a disconnect between the honesty of, I know I didn't give 100%, but here I am. I got to live with the fact that I left something on the table.
And that's a sad moment, I feel like. And trying to make sure that that doesn't happen.
And again, to the point that I honestly don't care if I ever win an award. I don't care if I'm ever on a list.
None of that means anything. It's just, you know, I want to be able to say I was the best version of myself at this thing that I really care about.
Yeah. You're swinging hard.
I love it. Yeah.
So, okay. So I send you this loom video review of the first chapter of your book.
And I just pulled up the Google doc that I sent you where I made comments. I highlighted the entire first paragraph and I wrote, need a better hook.
Your open line needs to grab the reader. Honestly, I would have stopped after the first two sentences.
I wasn't reading this for, if I was reading this for real. You know, one of the things that I like about you in general is that I knew you could take that feedback.
Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think that that's- I have incredibly thick skin.
I've developed it over the years of being the butt of many jokes when you when you have a really strong personality. And this is something that Nick Ayers and I have talked about in years past, because I honestly, I struggled with being able to receive harsh critique and take it in stride.
And Nick said, and I know this is something that you align with because I've seen you. I've listened to many episodes of your podcast.

Nick said. and and take it in stride and nick said and i know this is something that you align with because i've seen you i've listened to many episodes of your podcast nick said if you're not pissing off 25 or 30 of your audience yeah you're probably not saying anything of substance anyway yes and just learning becoming totally okay with people being upset yeah that's that's something that took a long time and i'm not all the way there because i still care what people think way more than i'd like to admit obviously and i put this book out there in the into the the wild and you know by the time this episode drops you'll be able to go to amazon and buy it it's like oh man i hope they like it they as in the general public which is a terrifying proposition yeah so carry on yeah i think let me give credit where credit is due for starters because you offered up a suggestion for the first line of the book and after a lot of reflection i'm like i like that first line i think that makes sense and so i ran with it so if you're reading the book and you think man uh this book didn't exist when i needed it most so i wrote it it's like okay well i gotta give credit where credit's due mr hanley that that one's from you buddy yeah i well thank you i um i mean it's dude just i mean all the thoughts are yours it's uh the the other thing i thought was really interesting and I, and I was glad when I reread it was you were telling us a lot of things that you weren't going to say.
And like, that was also one of the first things that I noticed. You're like, I'm not going to talk about sales.
I'm not going to tell him like, and one of my, I just read one of my comments. It's like, if you're not going to talk about it, don't talk about it.
Don't tell me you're not going to talk about it because i don't give a fuck because you're telling me that you're not going to know it reminded me of josh bryan and he's like i hate it when people say i'll be brief because when you say i'll be brief you're not being brief yes you've just you've just broken exactly what you told me you weren't gonna do just wasted three seconds yeah so um but dude i i i think that what came out the other end was awesome. This is classic, classic first draft, you know, or, or early draft stuff.
You always have more words in the first draft than you do in the, in the final version. That's, that's the whole game is you, you fill it up with all the words and then you use friends and editors and whatever to carve out the words and come back with something that's, that's, that's crisper and cleaner.
You want to know what's funny? That's not what happened at all. What do you mean? I added 20,000 words to what was the first draft.
But I guess what I mean, let me rephrase that. It is not filled with stuff that doesn't matter.
There's virtually no filler. It's punchier.
I guess, I'll put that another way i what i mean is you fill it with words everything's words sentences are long they're you're using ands and all this stuff and then when you start to crisp it up you go hey i could i can instead of saying this in 12 words i can say in eight words instead of saying this in 20 words i can say it in seven words and like everything gets punchy and snappy and it was the the final version is way snappier. And, um, you know, I like, I like that a lot.
So let's, you know, we, we have, uh, uh, uh, to be, to be fair to the audience, we have, you know, a little bit of time left ish. What is your favorite chapter? Like when you, when you, when you look at this and you think back about it and you think about, you know, this whole project and you think about the book itself and you know, what is, and it doesn't mean it'll be your audience's favorite chapter, but what's your favorite chapter? What's a chapter that like, when you read it, you're like, shit, I nailed that.
Like I nailed that chapter. Like that was awesome.
The, I very intentionally set up the structure of the book so that it finishes really strong. One of the things that annoys me the most about the way that some authors do it is you can tell when you get near the end of the book, they just kind of ran out of steam.
and the the in the last two or three chapters of a lot of books there's recap and there's like

summarizing and restating thoughts from earlier in the book. I didn't want to write that book.
There's 13 total chapters. I'm most proud of 12 and 13.
and I think chapter two, which is talking about grit and resilience and overcoming adversity and like hardening your mind against all the, all the suck that we all deal with. Yeah.
Because chapter two wasn't in the book originally. And before I sent out the first draft, I made a decision to be super vulnerable and talk about one of the hardest conversations I've ever had in my career, where at that point, one of the biggest prospects I had ever had a chance at.
And in reality, I never really actually had a chance at it. I was swinging way above my weight class.
And, and they told me, you're not good enough. You don't have what we need.
No amount of hustle from you is going to meet the needs that we have. You just don't have what it takes.
You need to better yourself. And if you want to win accounts like ours, and I'll remember that conversation with that senior VP of something for the rest of my career, because it's what catapulted me into the mindset now of I'm never going to get beat on knowledge.
You might beat me because you have a better market or you have more experience or you have some value-add service, some loss control or whatever. I know more about this craft than you do.
And that's never going to be something I lose at again. And I'm not saying that letters after your name means you're better or more successful than anybody.
But when you apply that knowledge in the field, you're way more effective at the practice of risk management and insurance, which at the end of the day, that's a big part of it. You can be a smooth talking sales and marketing monster and close more business than you'd ever dreamed of.
But at the end of the day, if you're not a wonk about the nuts and bolts, I hope somebody is coming behind you to clean that up because you're going to leave a wrecking ball of trash behind you. So I know that's a lengthy answer lengthy answer sorry um chapter 12 is basically dealing with people process and production challenges it's like okay yeah cool we've got all these great things now what are we going to do about it it when you're putting this into practice where are you going to find the roadblocks and there there's a total of nine little points inside there, three for people, three for production, and three for process.
It's like, if this falls apart, how is it likely to fall apart? What is it lacking? What is it missing? It's like, okay, great. You made it to chapter 12.
Good job. Way to go.
You're trying to implement this stuff. What are you going to face when you try to implement? What is that going to look like more than likely? If it falls apart, it's probably going to fall in one of these three areas.
okay stuff what are you going to face when you try to implement what is that going to look like more than likely if it falls apart it's probably going to fall in one of these three areas okay well what do you do to overcome the suck that you encounter when you try to better yourself yeah yeah i uh i i liked chapter 12 was i thought it was very tactical and there was a lot of really good takeaways um a lot of shit to underline. I did like to the thing I liked about two was and I actually have never done this in front of an insurance audience.
I actually did it for the University of Albany MBA program, asked me to come speak to them. And I was like, I had no idea what they wanted.
And so I was trying to think of stuff that was just on my mind. And what came to me, and I want to try to work this into some insurance audiences in the future, possibly, we'll see, was the idea that we don't talk a lot about the emotional side of being a leader, a manager, an entrepreneur, a business owner.
If you're a producer, you're kind of a mini business owner to a certain extent, you know what I mean, that all the stuff that comes out of that. We don't talk about the emotional side very often.
And yeah, we say things like, you know, I, you know, be disciplined, be tough or whatever. But like, we don't talk about the fact that at 9pm, when your body starts to de-stress you start seeking out drugs alcohol you start seeking out vices you start seeking you know you stay up you put shitty television on you stay up too late you start doing things that you shouldn't be doing you start finding fixes because it's stressful you know all day it's stressful you're making decisions you're making people are looking to you you know your your members, something happens and three heads turn and look at you like, what's the answer boss? You know, you know what I mean? I don't know what the answer is.
And that, that tension in that, in that, and even when things are going well, you have a sense of tension because you still are the one steering the ship. And, um, you know, we don't talk about that stuff a lot.
And I thought in chapter two, you did a really good job of calling that out and, you know, use the term toxic headspace. I was scrolling through here trying to find it's on page 14.
And, and, and, and I think that it's, it's, this is the kind of thing that I hope, as an industry, we start to have more conversations around, you know, we mask, we mask a lot of the emotional side of our business, the emotional side of leadership and running an agency with, with, with nerdy insurance shit, you know, we nerd out on stuff. And I think that's, that it's important.
That stuff is important. Don't get me wrong, but it's also a mask for, for what we're dealing with all the time.
And, you know, people give, people give agency, you know, people give agency ownership because they go golfing on Fridays and stuff. And it's like, look, I, I, I was that guy when I was younger and didn't understand giving, you know, 55, 65 year old agency ownership for going golfing on Fridays.
I understand now you got to get away from it. So a lot of it isn't just, it isn't just that you want to experience life or take a break.
It's that, man, if you have your nose in this shit every day, all day, and you never detach, you will go crazy. You will make bad decisions.
You will not put yourself in a position to win because this is really stressful work. Not only are you running a business, not only do you have a sales team, not only do you have all these carriers and vendors, but like the decisions that you make for your customers could make or break their lives.
And there's a responsibility there that I think we kind of laugh at and, you know, maybe, maybe dismiss slightly, but we all feel it. If you really care about what you do in this business, you feel the pressure of the decisions you make every day for your customers.
And I would just add into that, and you may have been getting there, so forgive me if I step over that. No, you're good.
Because you've said it before in the pod, so I know we're kind of in alignment on this. It's not the customers as much as it's the team.
And I have, we recently let two people go because their department doesn't exist anymore. So we only have seven on the team now.
And it's like, we have seven families that are impacted by the decisions that I make. The strategy, the tactics, the choices that I install directly impact seven families and seven people's careers and livelihoods, I could, if I handled myself in a toxic and an unhealthy way, I could permanently scar or damage seven people, seven humans that trust me with their professional aspirations and well-being.
That's the part that i i never stopped thinking about every decision i make it's like is this the right move for our team not our company but our team yeah because at the end of the day if risk well burned and you know went up in smoke tomorrow will i miss it yes is it basically my third child yes but really what risk well is is nothing more than the humans that are here that create shared experience that together work to make impact on our stakeholders which includes you and this audience yeah and i mean we're super existential i know a lot of people are like man i've got some thinking to do but uh

i appreciate the uh yeah the the the receipt of chapter two i feel like is is really important

because it's i mean i talk about stuff from my therapist in there yeah like the emotion wheel

like thinking of emotions as a trailing indicator rather than something early in the process like observations create thoughts which creates emotion and i'm like oh so emotion is like much later on in the the flow chart it's like wow i have definitely been thinking about this all wrong and the like the way that emotions enter into the whole cycle of your headspace. And I've never done that before.
It was like, wait a second. A lot of people probably haven't ever been in with a professional therapist, a professional counselor before.
Why don't we just share some of this? I couldn't recommend it highly enough. Oh, me too, man.
The best thing I ever did for my life was when my ex-wife first kicked me out of the house, I called a woman who's a therapist. She's a counselor.
I've been seeing her probably like every couple months for a few years, but just check-ins, right? Once a quarter check-in. And when it first happened, when everything first went down back in December of 2021, I called her and went in.
And I've been going every other week to see her since then. And it's the best thing I've ever done for my life.
I feel like I'm more open. I'm more aware of my own mental state.
I'm able to reflect on things I said and did in a more positive way and then affect change. And I've been better at discipline and habits.
And it's just because, you know, another really solid tool for this is morning pages. I don't know if anyone does morning pages, but morning pages are like morning pages.
I don't do them consistently enough. I wish I did them more consistently, But when I am consistently on Morning Pages, I feel like I am as grounded as I can be when I'm consistently doing Morning Pages.
But long story short, it is absolutely incredible. for all you listening at home, the book is Leaving Captivity, Your Blueprint for Building and Scaling

a Successful Insurance Agency

by James Jenkins,

CPCU CICCRM,

whatever the fuck that means. And it just means he's smart, I guess.
And guys, you can get the book, I'm assuming Amazon. By the time this goes out, I'm sure it'll be there, but like all the places or where should they go to get it? Yeah.
Yeah. If you want the, if you want a personalized copy, I'm happy to sign it and put a little, if you know me and you're like, Hey, I want to sign copy, go to my website.
It's available for purchase directly at jamesjenkins.com. By the time you listen to this, if you want to do it through Amazon, that's totally fine.
It's whatever your cup of tea is. Because for whatever reason, God decided to give me a voice that's somewhat easy to listen to i've heard a few times um a lot of people said i'm not buying the paper version but i'll definitely you know you can have it as a bent type story um well i have a audiobook that i recorded the entirety on there just like a lot of us have done in the industry um there's a lot of additional content kind of like david goggins where he's like pausing and reflecting on his own book and adding additional commentary in real time yeah i'm guilty i did quite a bit of that with the audiobook but that will be available on audible and wherever else you want your audiobooks um that's really it man i uh anybody who's ever written a book knows there's not much money in this so um i'm not going to get rich at all, no matter how many copies it sells.
But I will say every every chapter is a keynote and I'm in the middle of building out 13 keynotes and basically hand people a menu and say, what do you want your audience to hear about? Here you go. Yeah.
I basically just make shit up when I get get there i hope they don't want me to use slides

uh because if they use slides then i have to stick to them but most of the time i'm just like i just

show up and start talking that's that's my that's my way the the good people in omaha are going to

get to hear you and i back to back again just like they did in south carolina it's like i don't know

if there's two speakers that have different styles more than me and Hanley. We're both masters of our craft in different ways, but from a speaking style could not be more different.
It was hilarious. Yeah, I'm stomping around the brim, screaming into the fucking thing, cursing at people, cracking jokes, and you're up at the lectern, walking them through very steady, very well thought out.
Half the time, I don't even know the next word that's going to come out of my mouth hole. But dude, you're also an experienced professional.
And that was literally one of my very first times ever being a paid speaker in a room. So I practiced the crap out of that thing.
I'm a little embarrassed to admit how much time went into that. No, that's what you're supposed to do.
I, you know, I have, look, we all have to find our thing. We all have to do it.
We all have to go through it. Like I, I mean, and I, and I don't mean this in any negative way.
I had a canned presentation that I did this pretty much the same way with the same moments. I knew what jokes were going to hit.
I knew what time they were. I didn't have to look at a watch or I knew right, bam, bam, bam.
And I could be within a few minutes and for five or six years, that's exactly the way that I did it. And I, and I loved it.
And that was great. I would say that now, um, for better or for worse, I've reached a point where for me to deliver max value to the audience, I need to be able to come more off the cuff.
And I like to read the audience. The hard part about that is like, sometimes you miss, right? So there's always a bit of a tightrope walk when you are less polished in terms of your presentation, because you could miss, right? The audience could be off, the audience could be, you know, and, and, you know, we could do a whole episode on how to warm up an audience and depending on where you go, how you start and what you do.
Like, like if you're the first speaker after lunch curse at them as quickly as you possibly can, or make a sex joke, one or the other. And the reason is they're all sleepy, fat and full of food.
And, and none of them are like really listening to you. And if you can hit them with a good sex joke, or a curse word, you'll what you'll see his heads literally snap up.
Like, did he really just say that? And I'm, and I will literally say now I got you sons of bitches. Now let's go right like, but you know, it takes dude, I done, that was like, that was like, I don't want to call it a keynote presentation or whatever.
I've done this easily. I lost count at 347 presentations.
So like I'm pushing 400 presentations at this point in my career. So, um, it's a completely different thing and it doesn't mean right or wrong.
And yours was probably better. I just, uh, for, for me, for, for me to add value and for me to have fun with it, um, and to be different.
Right. I mean, um, that's, that's the way I go about it, but you pick up all these little things, you'll pick up different things as you go more times you do it.
It's like, it's like anything else, but you'll, you'll start to twist joke a little differently than how you practiced it. You'll start to, you know, give a little more inflection to a certain word or topic, or, you know, sometimes, you know, I, I had this one slide that was in for a while that like, I realized I needed a break.
And so I put this big ass bare face and anyone who's watched some of my presentations, you'll get about halfway through and there's this bad ass bare face. And I will literally just turn to the screen and I'll just look at it and everyone will be looking at it.
No one will be saying shit because they don't know what they've like waiting for a story. And I'll just look at it and go, there's no story to this slide.
That's just a bad ass bare face. And everyone will kind of chuckle and I'll go and I make this joke how I paid like $3 for it or whatever.
And all I'm doing in that moment, like it, it, it seems like it is I'm taking a break. I realized that I needed a break in the presentation.
So I, I have this whole little shtick that I do that takes about two and a half to three minutes. If I execute it properly, that just allows me to like, come down for a second and gather myself before I ramp back up again.
That was just from doing it a whole bunch and figuring it out. You can't practice that.
Like that's, you know, just getting out there and being in front of the audience. That's how you figure that shit out.
So you'll get there, dude. I mean, your, your meticulous nature will allow you to pick up on those things.
And as long as you listen to the audience while you're doing your

presentation, you'll pick up on those things.

You'll make adjustments. And a year from now, you'll, you'll,

you'll be even snappier.

Dude, coaching on the fly with your podcast guest.

All right, dude, you're the man. I love you guys for listening.

We're out of here. Peace.
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