RHS 177 - How to Dominate the Scratch Agency Game with Stephen Turnbull

In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home. Hello everyone and welcome back to the show.
Today we have a tremendous episode for you, a triple tremendous episode for you, a conversation with scratch agency owner, podcaster all around, incredible dude, someone who is kind of showing what it means to take the bull by its horns, as you will, Stephen Turnbull from T5 Insurance out of Utica, New York. I'm an enormous fan of Stephen, what he's doing, how he's doing his work, his focus, his dedication, how he plays to his strengths.
I think that Stephen and the crew of scratch agencies that he's hooked up with are kind of redefining what it means to be a scratch agency and showing that there's nothing to be scared of. We don't have to be scared of being a scratch agent, that you can do it, that you can make it happen, that there's success to be had, there are opportunities to be had, and that hardworking producers who are not given the opportunity to grow inside of legacy agencies can split off and be highly successful.
And I think Steven and, like I said, some of his crew that he's created around this whole, you know, the scratch agency, you know, this kind of, we'll call it a cohort of scratch agencies are just doing absolutely tremendous work. And Steven kind of came out to Albany back in the spring, early summer-ish, and we sat down at Dinosaur Barbecue and we just talked business and what he was doing.
And I tried my best to give him just some insights from what I learned launching Rogue and different stuff like that. And just watching him grow and be successful, it's been incredible.
I'm an enormous fan of Steven, I'm rooting for him every day and just this conversation was absolutely wonderful. There's a little bit, you're going to hear a little bit of a hiccup in the middle.
We had some technology issues, some internet connectivity issues. I've kind of done my best to kind of cut those out.
But if you hear a little screwiness in the middle, that's that. It takes two seconds when we get past it.
But just absolutely tremendous episode, absolutely tremendous conversation, and I highly encourage that you keep an eye on Steven, what he's doing, because I think he's going to be a primetime player in the years to come. And you heard it here first, unless you heard it somewhere else first, and then you heard it there first.
Okay. So before we get there, guys, love you for listening to this show.
If you enjoy the show, I'm cranking out episodes. I'm having great conversations.
I'm having tons of fun again. I think the doldrums of the personal issues that I've had over the last year are kind of starting to shake off, and I'm feeling like my old self again, and I'm just getting back into rocking and rolling and having awesome conversations.
this is one of them. If you enjoy it, share the show with a friend.
I mean, that's how we grow the audience. That's how we get more people involved.
That's how we get more people talking about the stuff that we talk about in this show. If you enjoy this show, then you obviously have some affiliation or affinity to kind of the ideas, the concepts, the methodology that I practice in the guest practice and in this format and all that and would love for you to share with your friends.
Just helps grow the show and all that is real good stuff. Also, if you love the podcast, you will really love the blog, Finding Peak.
Go to findingpeak.com. It's free.
Sign up. You get an article every Friday.
It'll make you better at what you do. At least some of it will, or hopefully it'll at least entertain you on a Friday morning.
Although what I'm really trying to do is give you just little tools to add to your tool belt to be the best version of yourself. That's the whole point of Finding Peak.
And I want to give a shout out to SIA. SIA is just a tremendous supporter of us.
Obviously, they're our parent company, but they don't have to be as good to us as they are. They don't have to be as good to their members as they are.
And I'll tell you, the people, the corporate people, the people at home office in New Hampshire, man, they're trying, they're working hard, and they're doing everything they can. I know that's easy for me to say.
I'm sitting here on a podcast in Albany, New York, and they own my agency, so it's easy for me to kind of stroke them and act like whatever, but I promise you, they're working for their members. They're working real hard, having tough conversations, working through the new kind of economy that we're facing and finding ways to make members more productive, more efficient, more successful, and ultimately help make them more money.
And so I want to give a big shout out to SIA. And if you're interested in joining a cluster, a network, or whatever you want to call what SIA is, I think you absolutely should consider SIA as one of your options.
I just, I think you should. I've loved it.
I've loved the people. They've been nothing but good to me.
They've been nothing but good to most of the people I know who are members. So I highly recommend you check them out.
Last but not least, Tivly, T-I-V-L-Y.com, T-I-V-L-Y.com. Tivly is the only sponsor of this show and they are an, an, and just an incredible company.
We've been, we've been paying Tivoli. We don't, we, even though they sponsor this show, they, we pay them at rogue.
We, we, we're a, we're a, we're a client of theirs. We're a partner of theirs, uh, for over 18 months, well before the acquisition with, with, uh, SIA happened.
And, um, one of the few tools that right now, I mean, obviously things can always change, but I have no reason to think that they would. Tivoli is one of those tools that I just wouldn't get rid of.
Just absolutely positively, they're a partner I wouldn't get rid of. They're so willing to help and find ways to make whatever you need work.
I love working with great people. And if you want to learn more about them, go to tivly.com

or go back in the archives of this show and listen to my conversation with Mark McClure

and Kim Reid.

I think you'll love that.

So with that, guys, let's get on to the tremendous Stephen Turnbull in this conversation right

now.

I'm going to shampoo.

Come on. I love you.
anytime i get my zoom setting anytime i'm uh invited to a zoom it puts mikhail's name in there for some reason but whatever how you doing i'm good bud i'm excited uh i'm excited to chat I've i've uh i've wanted to i've wanted to have you on the show for a while and just i actually you know for a whole bunch of reasons i had a whole mess of stuff going on i had a few weeks where like i just wasn't recording and wasn't just you know i i missed a couple weeks of the show uh the good news is i got a i got a big backlog going now which is great i love that sabers jersey behind you that's baller who is whose jersey is that so it's reinhardt's jersey when he was there and then eichel reinhardt and oposo signed it so that's when they did the craft hockeyville thing and they came to clinton did the game yeah so there's a there's a legendary picture on the nhl's instagram of me with my jersey pushing some 10 year olds out of the way trying to get inside i'm like wow that was wow that was really aggressive now the entire world is looking at it that's great that's awesome that's awesome dude well man you uh you've had quite the journey over the last year and it was it was awesome to spend time down in new york at Ben ben's thing that was cool um dude like i you know i i know you got the podcast and tons of people are listening to and it's awesome and you and sean are doing really cool stuff but like um for for people who listen to this show who maybe haven't heard of what you're up to or what you're doing um give them the give them the quick lowdown uh just on um t5 and and all that and what you're up to um, give them the, give them the quick lowdown, uh, just on, um, T five and, and, and all that and what you're up to. And then, uh, then we can get into the fun stuff.
Yeah, sure. Well, I appreciate you having me on.
And like you said, it's been a wild year. Um, it's been only nine months of starting T five and I've been listening to your show for a while.
And it's kind of a, it's a real experience to be here now with you as an agency agency owner so I appreciate you having me on. I've been in the industry for about seven and a half years now at this point and I started my career working for my family agency here in Utica, New York.
They had a long history and I was the fifth generation on track to take it over and one thing led to another where that didn't end up happening. And I left and started my own, um, just purely out of the, you know, purely out of the feeling of wanting to do business differently.
Um, which, uh, you can relate to, I know, and, uh, just wanting to, you know, start my own baby and give it a try. So did that in May of last year.
Like I said, we're about nine months in, uh got the podcast going, got married in September, did it all at once. So it's been a roller coaster of the last nine months, but it's been rewarding and exciting and all that good stuff that comes with starting a business and jumping right ahead first.
So it's been good. Yeah.
And you're crushing it, right? I mean, you're doing great. You're writing tons of insurance.
I mean, it's not like you didn't, um, at least my understanding, you know, from listening to some of your stuff and talking to you is that, um, it's not like you limped into it, you know, you kind of, kind of got right in and running it. It's like you had the treadmill going and you just jumped on it, running a, running at full speed.
Um, which is, which is really, really cool. Yeah.
Well, I, yeah, the treadmill was going. I think the exciting part and to my advantage too, was I just had so much bottled up in my head that I wanted to do in my previous agency that I wasn't able to do.
I wouldn't say a lot. I just wasn't able to do.
It was an older lifestyle agency. The staff had been there for so long.
You're trying to change old ways. And it was just kind of one of those situations where I was just hitting my head and I had all this stuff bottled up inside my head of different ways to do things, different customer interactions that, um, now I could do, you know, now I could, I could build that foundation and, and just, there's no more of, oh, we, we did it this way.
It's, this is what we're doing. Um, so, you know, that's the biggest thing I'm focusing on now.
It's just me and the agency still, I don't have any staff and, um, you know, it's just building that foundation and making sure that foundation's nice and set before, um, you know, we continue to keep going. So, but it's all been, all been good stuff.
Yeah. One of the funny things about, uh, when we were down in New York together, um, for everybody listening a few, a week ago or a few weeks ago, I can't remember when it was't remember was it last week yeah it was last week it seems like two months ago but it was life moves so fast like i can't believe that was only a week ago but so last week from from recording this whenever you're listening to it um we were down in new york doug ben's put this awesome like mastermind thing on and what was funny is uh turnbull and and Sean Fitzgerald are walking around with their laptops and little bags while we're like going around because, you know, that's that's the startup agency life is like someone calls.
Something's got to be done. Like the only person to get it done is you.
And I, you know, it's it's awesome. And it's part of the deal.
And it's one of those memories. And we've all done it.
I did the same thing. You know what I mean? You know, you, you, every single person who started an agency from scratch, especially if you're bootstrapping has, has done that thing.
Well, if you, if you started it in the laptop world, you know what I mean? Maybe you were walking around with a, with a binder, you know what I mean? Back in the day. But, uh, um, you know, so, so that's the life it's all good, but it's, it was funny, you know, just everyone's kind of walking around and then these guys got their, their computer bags with them, you know, just in case.
And, um, you can tell who the scratch guys were. Yeah.
Yeah. You know, and look like that's part of the deal.
Like that's part of the thing that I think, um, being willing to do that, being willing to, to one it's, it's what makes you a good agency owner. Cause you're not taking your responsibilities lightly by being like, ah, I can take a day off.
As a scratch agency owner, single guy, single person, you can't take a day off. You can't.
Your clients bought insurance from you. They're trusting that you're going to be there when they need you and you kind of have to be there.
But these are the days, and I remember these, like, these are the days that you really remember. Like, I think, I think it really cuts into you.
They're the scars that stay with you that allow you to push through some of the, some of the even harder shit that you're going to have to experience as you, you know, start hiring people. People are really tough as you start taking on more vendors, more partnerships, more whatever, like, you know, things, things, you know, it seems tough at the beginning, but it only gets harder as you go for different reasons.
And I think it's cool. It was, it was fun to see you guys doing your thing.
And the mix of people there was awesome. Well, Friday, Friday, did I just lose you? Yeah.
Just for a second. You're back now though.
You said you were on the World Trade Center loop and you got a call. Yeah, I was on the World Trade Center loop.
We're about to head into the museum and I had to issue a binder quick. So sitting there on the phone pumping that out.
I didn't didn't have the laptop with me that time. I said, I'm going to risk it and not bring the laptop.
But it was kind of funny. You just like, OK, can we wait five minutes? Just taking the view for an extra five minutes.
I got to send this out quick. Yeah.
Yeah. To your point, that's something I'll never forget.
And it's like part of the journey. And just, I think it's important to sit there and allow yourself to enjoy that as part of the journey, right? Instead of just kind of manifest over, Oh, I got to do this.
It's like, Hey, this is all part of it. And this is what you're building.
You'll remember these days. So I'm definitely, uh, I'm definitely a visual person.
You can see the trust, the process sign behind me. I've got some signs in front of me where I sit in the office.
And I think it's important to like constantly remind yourself, especially starting an agency, um, you know, the end goal or whatever that may be for the next steps to get you through those long days, hard times. Yeah.
The reality is you made this decision to do this thing. Right.
And I think that's the part that a lot of people forget is like, like, or, or I think, let me put that a different way. I think that's the part of the thing that people who haven't done it romanticize is like, Oh, you know, I'm still going to live my life or I want to live my, it's like, no, no, no, no.
Like maybe you can, but there, but there are trade-offsoffs like you got to bring your freaking computer with you everywhere and you you know you got to tell your your wife or your partner or your friends or whoever you're with like or your kids like hey I I need 20 minutes to go do this thing like it's it's a non-negotiable I have to right you know I've been with people who've had to walk off the beach or um you know whatever the i think it might be my computer my computer is like freaking out right now it says i'm good and shows we're still recording on my end yeah yeah i don't know i actually i'll tell you what i i actually have no idea what's going on my computer screen just went black and It's all fucked up. And it's because my Mac blew up the other day.

Oh, God.

And. was going on my computer screen just went black and it's all fucked up and it's because my mac blew up the other day oh god and uh and went blue smoke on me and i have another mac coming and i'm on a pc which is the worst computer in the world oh we can we could talk about this for hours because i'm on a pc and i went to the mac because of the hawk soft and pl rating stuff you can you You can work it on a Mac, but it's just way too many things you got to do.
And it's easier to do the PC. So I'm, yeah, I feel you there.
I, you know, one of the reasons that I'm actually not, I'm Hawksoft is because of that requirement. Like I looked at Hawksoft a lot and I was like, cause early on all i had was a mac right all right i

had was a mac computer that was what i had and i didn't have the money to buy a new computer at that time so like um even though things are really wacky it seems like it's still recording so we're just gonna keep yeah we're good yeah um actually the hawk soft the hawk soft for me was fine there was a back end you get through but the pl rating uh the the raider was the reason i had to move to PC, but anyways. Yeah, yeah.
You know, it's like, you know, what's crazy to me is that, you know, so we're on Nexure right now for our agency management system. And they recently came up with some patches.
And now you can use a Mac and everything on Ne next year. But when we first started looking at it back in August, you couldn't.
And they're like, well, you know, not a lot of people ask for that. And I'm like, really? Like, yeah, I guess.
I mean, I, I, I just, for me, my, my issue is that, um, if I'm like a hundred percent effective on a Mac On a PC, I'm like 60% effective.

I'm just not.

I feel like a committee designed the UX, which it probably did, of Microsoft. And when you look at a Mac, it's like, no, someone who actually uses this thing every day built it, not a committee, which I think is a good analogy or metaphor, probably analogy, I guess, to our industry.
is like when you look at the user experiences in our industry, right?

The few that wow us or that excite us or seem like the future, it feels like someone was like, you know what? This is the way it's supposed to be done. Let's do it this way.
Let's get after it this way. Like, here's how I want people to go through the flow.
Here's what I'm seeing. And then everything else feels like a group of risk managers sat in a room and said, let's come up with the, you know, let's come up with something that we all agree on.
That's the, you know, that has every feature that could possibly have. Because God forbid, you know, it just, you know, it, and a good example of this i think is like better agency right like better agency um you know we're we're working with them on some things um uh and you know a lot of people have mixed opinions about better agents there's a lot of mixed opinions and i think some of that was they went a little hard on their marketing a little too early.
Right. And I think they would even agree that they made a lot of claims early that were not actually real.
Now, today, a lot of those claims are true. Like they actually make good on them.
But I look at a tool like that and I'm like, that's a user experience that you can train one of your producers or CSRs on in an hour. You know, we're six months into next year and we still have questions every single day about how to use it.
It's just incredibly complex. And that's not a knock on next year.
Epic, AMS 360, they're all the same. Like, you know, they're so complex.
Their UX is so daunting that it's very difficult. But, you know, but what better agency doesn't, you know, a better agency doesn't have is every field, every button, everything, you know, it doesn't have, you know, it doesn't have the full scope.
So there's this trade-off that we have to make in trying to design how we're going to one, run our agency and two, the experience that we want to give both our team and our customers that doesn't seem like it's been fully figured out yet. So when you were starting to jump into your own software, the software that you were gonna use, and I hate, I don't wanna talk about specific software because that conversation gets kind of boring.
I'm more interested in like, what was the thought process that you were going through when you had to make these decisions? Because early on, some of these decisions can be booms or they can cripple you. So how did you go through that thought process? Yeah, well, to your point too, I got a little bit down the rabbit hole in the beginning, I would say, and then kind of just popped my head up and was like, what are you doing here? We're trying to change what you're used to.
So we've already mentioned them. So I was on Hawksoft at my previous agency.
And so that was just an easy swap for me. I was already familiar with the system.
For me, it was just like the familiarity of it because the last thing that I had to do was starting the agency was try to learn a new system, right? I just, I already knew it. I think it works well.
It works well for what I need to do. And then the CRM I was on at the time wasn't talking to Hawksoft.
So that's how I got kind of down the rabbit hole of wanting to find something that was more integrated. And to your point, I did talk to better agency and look at that, but it just didn't make sense to change everything up at that time when I was three, four months in and to, because I was familiar.
I knew, I knew where I needed to go in Hawksoft to do the things I needed to do. And then I ended up just taking on a new CRM, um, that had the integrations already set up with Hawksoft and working through there, which was again, something that was familiar.
My old agency, I was the only one that was using the CRM. So it's not like there was somebody else that knew bells and whistles that I didn't, right? I would train myself on it.
I was the only one using it. And so for me, it was just what's going to be the most familiar so that I can just focus on growth and selling policies.
And then, you know, down the road, if there's something else that makes sense, that's going to solve a problem for us. We can certainly look at that, but it's just, it was just what's, what's going to be the best thing to be able to grow as fast as possible.
So that definitely feels like, you know, one of the things that I wanted to kind of key on in our conversation today was around how you kind of, you know, had the treadmill on seven and just jumped on running, right? I don't think that's common. I think a lot of people out of the gate struggle.
They have months where they don't write business or they write tiny bits of business because they, you know, just, just, you know, it's hard. It's, you know, doing all these different things.
And it seems to me like what I just heard was one of the keys for you was that you used familiar systems and making that decision allowed you to focus on what early on is the most important thing is not redefining the customer experience or revamping every part of the process, even the things you might've disliked. It was working with familiar tools so that you could sell business that you could pay the bills.
Yep. Does that feel right? Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. Nailed it on the head.
So your question is like, what, what, what do you think attributed to me turning the treadmill up to going full speed right away? Is that what you're, yeah. So I think something that I did in, in admittedly, I did not do this on purpose.
It's just something I did the, my previous agency was last name agency, my last name. Right.
So I was that's who I was known as, but think something that I did, again, that was not on purpose was created the brand of Stephen Turnbull. And so when people wanted quotes or whatever on social media, or they got referred to me, it was always to my cell phone or to my personal page.
And then it was just the fact that I was Stephen Turnbull with X, Y, and Z agency. It wasn't necessarily just me under the umbrella.
And so when I did go off and start my own, it was, oh, well, we've done business with Steven. We're going to do business with Steven, or we see him now in a different light.
And now I'm still going through that transition of, you know, I'm very much community focused in the way that I bring in business and my inbound. And so I'm still trying to train kind of the community and different things that I'm now with T5, right? But it's been an easier transition than I think, because most of my branding and stuff has been around the personal brand of me.
Does that make sense? It absolutely does. So there will come a day, most likely in the not too distant future, where you're going to hire a

producer, right? So as a producer, building that personal brand, using your cell phone, your personal email, whatever, you know, text messaging, that makes a tremendous amount of sense. And it allows you to do something like what you did.
Now that you're an agency owner, right? How are you, have you thought about what are your feelings on like, you know, now, you know, Jim Jones or Sally Smith comes in and she's doing the same thing. Now calls are going to her personal cell phone.
People are texting her. It's it, people are doing business with Sally Smith, not T5.
Yeah. That scare you.
Does it worry you? Do you think, or are you, are you of the camp? Like, Hey, if I treat them well, it's all good. They'll be here and it's all good.
Like how do you, you know, does it worked for you in this transition very well? I can see why it did. And I think it's amazing, but does it, does that same philosophy now that you're the agency owner, does that make you nervous?

No. And I'll tell you why.
I think if when I bring on producers, I think T5 is going to have the culture. I don't think I know T5 is going to have the culture where they're going to be able to do those types of things within the culture.
The reason that I, again, not on purpose was creating that personal brand was because it was not possible for me to do under the agency. And I mean, not possible in the sense as I was the only one rowing the boat in one direction.
Right. So trying to, to simply do business different ways, implement e-sign.
I mean, you have to understand this agency, my family agency has been around for 156 years. So I joined in 2016, I was the first new hire for 22 years.
Wow. So when I joined it fresh out of college in 2016, it was why does the website say under construction, you know, what is social media, this and that.
And then I built all that up to the point where I was rowing the boat in one direction. Now the experience and the headaches and the feeling of banging my head into the wall time and time again, because I've had those experiences, I now know what I want to do differently now that I'm in the role of the owner to provide that young producer, that new producer, the tools that they need to build their brand with T5 and not have any roadblocks.
And I'll be able to continue to remind myself when I become the first time boss of a producer or whatever that is, what the experiences that I had and to try to provide them something different. Yeah, I love that.
And I think I do, I completely agree with you. I think that experience is gonna pay so many dividends for you when you start to hire people.
You'll be able to talk to them about the things they're feeling about the questions they have. And there's, there's an empathy that I'd like to believe I have you have, because we've had in many others, because we had these experiences of just getting no or getting questioned or seeing results and having people just dismiss them because it wasn't the way business was normally brought in or whatever.
I feel like it does give you a competitive advantage sometimes in the hiring because you can talk to producers in a way that doesn't seem like a boss talking to a producer. It seems like someone who's been there before talking to someone who's there now.
And that is definitely a big competitive advantage. You know, it's funny to me in our industry, this conversation is often frowned upon.
You know, a lot of church are like, nah, they shouldn't have their own brand. It's all about the agency.
It's all about the agency. And, you know, one of the things that's really interesting is that's so much ego.
There's so much ego in our industry, especially because as you know, last names on businesses, it's all about that last name. It's all about that last name.
Okay. Now I look at my buddy.
So this morning I'm looking to buy a house and a buddy of mine owns probably the best real estate firm in the town that I live in and want to purchase in. And his name is Mike Field, Field Realty.
And I look at this dude and like in the real estate industry, this is not a thing, right? It's like, he's got this one woman, her name's Joanna. She's great.
Her pictures are on all the signs. It's, you know, Joanna, ah, shit, I'm going to forget her last name.
She probably doesn't listen to the show, so it doesn't matter. But, you know, I mean, in the real estate, but, you know, Joanna's, she's awesome.
And I know her, but like, she, it's her brand. It's just Field Realty, right? So the colors are red with Field Realty behind her, but all the signs are like her with her arms crossed and her face and her name.
Her names are on the sign above the Field Realty logo. And it's like, why is it that the real estate industry, and I'm sure people have reasons and thoughts behind this, but the real estate agency or industry does this so well, this personal branding of what would be equivalent to a producer in real estate in an insurance.
It's like, nope, you, I don't want your name anywhere. It's not about you.
It's about the agency. Like, what do you think it is about our culture? Is it just simply ego? Is it the way we're compensated? Is it the business model? Why do you think that is? Like, what is your take on that? I just think everyone's scared of change.
Yeah. You know, I just think everyone's scared of change.
And I want to preface this comment by just saying like, there's there, one of the things that has amazed me in the first nine months of owning an agency is how many different ways there are to skin the cat. Right.
My family has an old lifestyle agency. You go into the office at eight 30 to five, you're there till four 59 and paper, you name it.
And they're very successful and they have been, and that's great. But the, where was I going with that? The, um, what was the point? What was the, I lost my thought.
I asked you why the real estate industry is better at, Oh, scared to change, scared to change. And, and, and, and I think to, to, to go back to the personal branding thing, I always remember I once asked my father who was in the agency about getting outside producers.
And we've never had an outside producer that wasn't last name, to your point about last name. And I guess this kind of answers the question before, so I apologize.
But I always said, why don't we try to hire a young producer, blah, blah, blah. And the first reaction was, well, what happens if they leave? And in my thought, my immediate answer is, well, that's your fault as the owner.
That's our fault as the managers or whatever. And people are going to leave and whatever, move or don't like the job or whatever.
But if you're providing that culture and transitioning into your next question here, providing them the opportunity to grow their brand or do whatever they want to do along the scopes where it makes sense for your agency and the growth so that they enjoy their job. You're doing a good job.
The agency's growing. There should be no reason for them to want to leave.
You know, and I think it's two with, with our age, with, with the insurance industry, I think it's like two separate sides of the aisle, the people that are wanting to change and the people that just don't want to change. And there's very little kind of in the middle, there's so much fear of changing the Apple card versus we got to be ahead of the next best thing.
And, you know, I think from the branding point, going back to your question, it's, it's, it's probably sure part of ego, like this is my, you know, my business, and you're going to go out there and brand yourself separately, blah, blah, blah. But I just think it mainly comes down to the fact of the old lifestyle agencies that just are scared of change and scared of doing things a different way.
What's up guys? Sorry to take you away from the episode, but as you know, we do not run ads on this show. And in exchange for that, I need your help.
If you're loving this episode, if you enjoy this podcast, whether you're watching on YouTube or you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, I would love for you to subscribe, share, comment if you're on YouTube, leave a rating review if you're on Spotify or Apple iTunes, et cetera. This helps the show grow.
It helps me bring more guests in. We have a tremendous lineup of people coming in, men and women who've done incredible things, sharing their stories around peak performance, leadership, growth, sales, the things that are going to help you grow as a person and grow your business.
but they all check out comments, ratings, reviews. They check out all this information before they come on.
So as I reach out to more and more people and want to bring them in and share their stories with you, I need your help. Share the show.
Subscribe if you're not subscribed. And I'd love for you to leave a comment about the show because I read all the comments.
Or if you're on Apple or Spotify, leave a rating review of this show. I love you for listening to this show.
And I hope you enjoy it listening as much as I do creating the show for you. All right, I'm out of here.
Peace. Let's get back to the episode.
I was thinking about this the other day, actually, while we were on our, while we were at Doug's thing down in New York. You know, I feel like a big part of this change too, or this, the difference, and I don't know your dad, I don't know your uncle, I don't know your previous agency, I just know you.
But I think a big part of that friction is that the legacy of our industry is risk managers. People were, everything was risk, risk, risk, risk.
Everyone says we're risk managers, risk managers. I'll be honest with you.
I don't know anybody who's 45 and under in this industry, maybe a couple that are like hardcore risk managers, right? They're salespeople. It doesn't mean they don't appreciate risk.
It doesn't mean they don't appreciate what we do. It doesn't mean that they aren't good at what we do, like from an actual nerdy insurance standpoint, but they're salespeople.
To be good at this job today, the people that get it in, the people that love it, the people that are grinding, that are pushing, they're growing, they're salespeople. They're salespeople.
Men, women, whatever, they're salespeople. I feel like that hasn't always been the case.
I felt like the people who built this industry were true risk managers. And because of the nature of everything was local, you just sat there and you walked around houses and you nitpicked cracks and steps and handrails and painting peeling from building or whatever, right? And it was like, oh, that wood chip could have, you know, some chemical in it and we need to, you know, mitigate that.
And it's like, I get that those, and I'm not saying right or wrong, you know, I think it's an evolution. I think some of it is the homogeny of insurance products, you know, where, you know, 20, 30, 40 years ago, the difference in coverage from carrier to carrier was very wide.
There was a huge wide gap, right? So, so knowing how to do these things and what carriers to put it with and who is, it was a big part of the business. And today it's like personal auto home umbrella.
I mean, these things are so homogenous. I mean,, I can't imagine there's even very many words that are different in a policy form and in a small commercial bop, it's almost exactly.
I mean, I cannot, there is no difference, no meaningful difference in any way, shape or form between most of the standard bops that you'll see in the market. So like, I feel, you're a salesperson, you're a marketer, you're trying to grow, talking to someone who grew up, who lives, who breathes and thinks risk management.
And that feels like a primary driver of the difference. I don't know.
I mean, that's just a theory. I don't know.
What do you think about that? Is that something you see? Yeah, I definitely, I definitely agree with you. I think obviously social media and the, you know, the way to connect virtually and different things have provided us a different way to sell.
I just think one of the, um, I've said this all along. I tell people all the time, if you do your job and do the right thing, you're going to be successful, right? Especially in this industry.
If you just do your job, are available for your client and do the right thing by your client and doing the right thing, by the way, maybe, Hey, Mr. and Mrs.
Smith, I'm sorry, your home and auto is in the best place, but we'd be happy to look at it next year. That's the way, and I hope this I hope this answers your question.
We're where I'm going with it, but that's kind of the way that I've grown my brand. I've never made a cold call.
I haven't been that types of salesy person I've led with the educational, you know, I'm here to help you solve a problem and type of I'm here if you need it. And with the referral relationships I've made in my community involvement, it's just kind of morphed into me being the local young insurance guy, you know, that's getting after it, which has worked out very well because my pipeline is continuously full just from inbound referrals.
So instead of your point, Nick picking different, you know, different aspects or trying to sell with that or whatever, it's just kind of more, um, I hate to use the word like holistically, you know, trying to just be there from an educational standpoint and, you know, do the right thing by the client.

Does that answer your question at all?

Or did I go off again? No, it's good. Do you think that your town plays a role? How much do you think being in Utica, which, you know, being a smaller town in upstate New York with a community of people who tend to know each other, tend to stay there, tend to, you know, that that's their town.
You know, how many people in Utica? 50,000? I mean, yeah, that's six, I think 60 or so. Yeah.
60,000 people. So it's, it's big enough to have plenty of opportunity, but not so big as you know, you probably know a lot of the major players, everyone's kind of seen each other.
Like, you know, if you go to a, to a larger market, that, that local man about town game, I just, I don't know that it works as well, or it's certainly, it's significantly more difficult. Do you think that, do you think part of your success too, is that your way, your disposition, your preferred method of growing an agency fits very well with the geographic location in the community that you're in right now? Yeah, I would agree.
I would, I would say so. And, but, and I don't think I wouldn't tie it just to Utica and the, the, the workup of what Utica is about.
I would always tie it into like, I'm, I'm very present. Right.
So I've, I've at 28 years old, I was already the president of the rotary club. I serve on the local chamber or compass board.
I'm vice president, was vice president of the BNI group, like all these things that I've already kind of just engulged myself in to try to get me out there. Because again, even when I was working for my last name insurance agency, that was great, but I needed to create the brand of me to get out there and get my own people.
And now it's the same, but different with T5. And just being present and being able to be the insurance guy that, oh, you have your home and auto or your small business or whatever it is with me.
And you see me out at the chamber event, or you see me out here at your son's soccer game or whatever that is. I definitely think the small town feel helps, but I also, I think it on top of that, it's helped that I just kind of make myself seen in the community and, and, uh, you know, known as the, the young gun insurance guy, if you will, for as much as I hate to say that.
Yeah. No, no, I think that's great.
I, um, I think that I, I think my point there, and I, and I think you made it perfectly, um, was you kind of have to fit who you are, what you like to do, how you like to prospect, how you like to grow your business too. Um, yes, the customers you want to serve for sure.
But I think the community that you're in and the disposition of that community, it matters. You take the way you're doing things and you put yourself in Boston or Westchester or Long Island.
Not that it wouldn't work, but it may not work as fast, right? Because now there's a shit ton of people, a lot of transients, a lot of people who don't care that you're the man about town. They're just looking to get through their life.
They're busy as shit. They don't know who you are from Adam.
Doesn't matter. You know what I mean? It's a different way.
And your town, being a person about town, being a guy who supports Utica, who invests himself. And that really matters.
Now, if you were to go hardcore Google paid ads and search probably doesn't work as well, or certainly doesn't get you the traction. Right.
You'd say it did for me here in Albany, which if you count the surrounding areas, we're about 750, 800,000 people, um, you know, Albany, which, you know, if you count the surrounding areas, we're about 750, 800,000 people, you know, or someone who's in a larger market, you know, you know, they kind of have to take different tactics. So it definitely seems like today, local that that local kind of man woman about town, it works incredibly well in some regions.

In other regions, it may still work, may take a little more time, may not allow them to get off

the ground. And you almost have to fit, like, yes, fit your marketing strategy, your sales strategy

to the customers you want to serve for sure. But I think today, even more, you have to,

or maybe not more, but certainly as a strong piece of the puzzle, match it to the community you're in as well, the geographic region that you're in, what the disposition and flow. Cause, cause here you have two types of people that live in Albany, New York, basically you have state workers who've lived here forever, who don't give a shit about anything.
And then you have people who are from some other place that are here because it's the seventh largest government and one of the most corrupt governments in the world. New York is terrible.
Don't move here. And, and, and they're, and they don't give a shit.
Right. So like, I have found that in the, so if you go Albany, local doesn't mean anything, but if you go, you have to draw all the way down to like my buddy, who's like Latham.
Like Latham is a town of like 15,000 people. You know what I mean? Latham is a small suburb or Clifton Park, another, you know, again, these suburbs are probably more like 30,000 people in themselves.
But like it, you know, you have to really drill down for that to work where, you know, for the, for the, for my ex-wife's family agency, the Murray group, you know, Albany was their local, you know, back when that agency was started, local had much, had a much wider reach. Yeah.
I don't know. I think it's, I think it's important to, to, to identify it, but I also think it's important to, you know, sprinkle in other ways.
You know, one of these things, like I said, with, with starting the scratch agency, when the podcast was Sean, and we've met a good kind of core group of people and we have a weekly call, we're all new agency owners, I think within at least two and a half years. And there's like me that has never made a cold calls, completely community-based or inbound referrals.
And one of the other guys in there is just strictly cold calls and he does super good, you know, but like we have learned off of each other of,

he has a,

his office is in a spare bedroom in his house and he just hammers the phone

all day long and is very successful.

And I'm on the complete opposite end of the spectrum.

And I'll say like, that's one of my flaws.

I need to be better at doing more outbound stuff like that instead of just

kind of the inbound referral stuff. I got a be better at doing more outbound stuff like that instead of just kind of the

inbound referral stuff.

I got a question for that, though.

Why is that a flaw?

Well, I would say I would say I think there's a little bit of missed opportunity.

But if you're cold calling, you're not asking for referrals.

You're not following up on referrals.

You're not out at an event, right?

And I go back and forth in this. This is an honest question.
This isn't like I'm right or wrong. referrals.
You're not following up on referrals. You're not out at an event, right? Like I, you

know, and I go back and forth in this, this is, this is an honest question. You know, this isn't

like, no, no, no, no. It's like, you know, if, if like, I used to, I don't as much anymore.
I used

to listen to Gary Vaynerchuk a lot. And one of the things that I thought was really interesting

about Gary Vaynerchuk and one of his takes was don't try to fix your flaws, double or triple into your strengths. And if one of your, if your strength is being the community guy, you're great at leading organizations of gathering people together, connecting people, being about town, you love it, you're good at it, people know you that way.
Why not find ways to double and triple into that versus trying to learn how to cold call, which is going to suck the life out of you because it's not natural, right? Like for this other guy, it's obviously something that puts life into him that that for him, you know, that really drives him because he's willing to do it all the time. Cold calling.
I hate it. Right.
I absolutely hate it for me.

But but I also don't love being out around town and doing events.

I really like digital marketing.

That's what that's why I double and triple into digital marketing, because that's what I really like.

So, you know, I think that.

I would I would caution.

I don't say caution.

Caution is the wrong way.

That makes it sound like I know what I'm talking about.

No, you're absolutely right. I think it's worth thinking about.
Is that really a missed opportunity for you? Because unless you're trying to make T5 into a middle market powerhouse, why do you need a cold call? And even then, I don't think you have to cold call to be good at that. I think that, you know, I, I, I just, I always think about, should I try to learn a new skill or should I just get better at what I, what I like doing and already know how to do and just become the best.
Right. I don't know.
Nope. You're absolutely right.
Yeah. That makes complete sense.
There you, here you go again, Hanley, get my mind spinning. Now I'm going to be thinking about, now I'm going to be thinking about this for another week, just like my first employee.
Well, that was an interesting conversation. I, I, again, I don't know right or wrong.
I just like, I think about these things and, you know, I consider everything an experiment in my life. Everything.
I, I just, they're all experiments and projects. I have very few things that I, I mean, I have like core values that obviously dictate my life and what I believe in.
But, but, you know, when it comes to business and it comes to these kinds of things, I think projects and experiments and, you know, I tried cold calling. I've tried, I've tried a lot of different things.
And I did a lot of what you're doing early, early in my career and found that, you know, going to the networking events constantly, like I, it's not, to me, I run out of steam doing that, but I could literally make videos, right. You know, last night at midnight, I'm working on SEO on my website because it's fun.
You know, I don't know. Yeah, I just, you know, so like, but for other people that would like their brain would melt and it would be terrible and they would hate it.
So I think to myself, like, versus, versus trying to deplete ourselves in places that, that drain our energy, why not just be the man or woman in the things that we that we do really well and love i guess yeah no you're absolutely right yeah yeah it's um man you got my mind spinning about a lot here but i mean just it like a perfect example and i don't want anybody listening to this to be like oh my god that's a great idea i need to do need to do it because I'm gonna have the same outcome. I think there's a lot of luck.
But I when I first started, when I first announced T5, I knew I have to be as loud as possible about now Stephen Turbles with T5 because it was always, you know, with the other agency. And so it was end of May, I bought a Yeti cooler, I got a big T5 logo, I slapped it on there and did a world for business, big giveaway.
Got, I don't know, 120 people that entered into it locally, but I wrote three homeowners policies from it that paid for the cooler three times. And then got people on my email list and like, that's still the community stuff.
I think it's so much more than going to the networking events or, you know, I just started a referral program that I have kind of internally and I have not put that out there and said, Hey, we're doing this great referral program. You'll get a $5 coffee gift card and this and that, and all that crap.
I've just done it internally for the ones that I've had. But, and that's been, man, that's been eyeopening.
Cause I'm actually tracking each and every one. Um, and I I'm, I'm at like an 80% closure rate with those and just inbound referrals so far for 2023 and the ones that I'm tracking.
So yeah, I think to your point there, you bring up a great point. Why not double down on exactly what has worked well up until this point? Because again, I'm still just by myself and there's so much more that

I want to do that's around the community involvement around the inbound referral type thing that I just either need to wait until I have some more help or more time or. Cause think about you start cold calling because cold calling is a skill and I, anyone who cold calls it as part of their business, I give a tremendous amount of respect to because it is its own skill that seems easy, but it is incredibly difficult, right? You read, you read a cold calling ebook or listen to somebody on a webinar or go to a presentation or whatever.
And it, they talk about it and yes, the things they're saying, you're going, ah, I can do that. I can say that.
Oh, there's a script. That's great.
I can use that script. Yeah.
Yeah. This sounds great.
And then you do it and you're terrible at it for, for a very long time. And unless you're one of those people who just naturally can do it.
And but not that you can't learn the skill, but there are people who just, you know, they're gravitating towards it. And it's like, okay, you're, you're, you're a solo guy.
You don't have any backup yet. You're now you're having a ton of luck or not luck i don't want to put like luck you're having a ton of success in in these community we'll put all the things you've talked about in community uh based agency and um you don't have any designs to be in 17 states and all this kind of stuff you want to dominate your market and you can make so much money and maybe expand to some towns outside of that, at least for now.
Right. So like think about how much, how much time you're going to waste trying to learn how to do something like cold call.
Like you're going to waste a lot of time. You're going to make, you're going to waste days, days and days and weeks, and maybe longer trying to get accounts in.
And even then those accounts that you get in cold calling, you're going to have to service those accounts. That's going to be a nightmare.
And, um, you know, that to me, I don't know. That's just, that is the way that I've kind of started to think is like, if I want to do outbound prospecting, what I did was, and granted, I, you know, having sold the agency, I had had the budget to do this i hired producers who know how to do that work right because they like it and they're good at it and i don't have to learn how to do it i respect it i think it's amazing but i don't have to do it and i've kind of gotten to the point and this is just whatever is that i don't really want to learn new shit unless it's absolutely

necessary I want to hire people that know the shit that I don't know and I just want to be

really good at the things that I'm good at and then just bring in people who love to do find

enjoyment in know how to do are excellent at all the other stuff because man learning new stuff

sucks and it takes forever well it takes so much time like much time, like you said, right? Yeah. You know, that's the one thing I love about how much inbound we do just from how, you know, the sales process or a marketing process, whatever you want to categorize it that we talked about is most of everything that comes in is so warm.
You know, it's like Sally told me to call you. Here's the problem I'm having, or Sally said, you're the best one, you know, here's everything, let me know.
It's not, and I've never really been that type of like a salesy person. You know, I can sell, but it's not, it's never been like a high pressure type of sales strategy.
So that is what I enjoy too about, you know, just sounds cliche, but it's just coming down to making the relationships and you morph those relationships. And to your point too, like the amount of opportunity that's out there is unbelievable.
I had a, I never, I didn't have this relationship in my previous agency, but I kept driving by this local mortgage company. And I'm like, why have I not even tried to reach out to him? Found the guy on LinkedIn, got his email, sent him a video of myself.
Was like, Hey, here's who I am. This is what I'm trying to build with C5.
And here's why I think we'd work well together. And with that week, he sent me two deals and now everybody in his office is sending me stuff.
And they're just feeding me like a happy pig. And that was just from a simple opportunity and just saying, Hey, I know you may have a relationship already, but if you don't, or if you can't get in touch with that person, whatever it is, I'd be happy to help.
Here's who I am and here's why I think I could benefit you. And it's worked out well.
So, you know, I think that's the strategy that I enjoy. Dude, I mean, that's that's awesome.
One, it takes it takes balls, right? You you you did cold outreach to that person, too. I love the fact that you use video to do it it immediately separates you it immediately humanizes you um you know don't you know loom videos video whatever you know whatever you're using little videos boom boom or bomb bomb or whatever the fuck it is like that stuff is those little things are so personal i love loom videos i love that stuff we use loom you we use Loom, you know, I tried Vidyard.
Um, I, I actually not only is it cheaper, but I prefer Loom personally, but, um, just after testing Vidyard for a year, but, um, it just, uh, I, I love that. I absolutely love that.
And now you have this consistent flow of leads coming in. And as long as you do some touch-ins and do a good job for his clients, that's a referral source for years that you could have.
That'll just be, and it's amazing.

To your point about video too, for anybody listening, like don't narrow your focus to

just video proposals. I think Canley, I told you this when we were in the city, but I had

the opportunity and got really close to purchasing a small book just about only six months in.

And I did a, like a five to six minute video on who Stephen Turnbull is, what my vision is of T5, you know, just why I think it'd be a great opportunity for me and the family that was selling the small book. And the facilitator of the sale called me specifically to say the family wanted to let you know that somebody offered almost double what you did, which wouldn't have made sense for me anyway.
So that's fine. But they specifically wanted me to call because they appreciated your offer and the personalization you made in this and that.
And so like, that was just me instead of writing out this big letter on my letterhead and signing it saying I'm the best one, call me and let me know when to write the check. It was just a quick video.
It's like, Hey, here's who hey here's who I am and love the opportunity to have a conversation about buying your business and if it wasn't for somebody coming in and paying double I probably would have got it um so yeah I I think just like think I always try to again it sounds cliche but always try to think like what's everyone else not doing yeah yeah I um there you know classic million, this is cliche almost at this point, but you know, Warren Buffett's quote around, uh, when other people are fearful, be greedy. And when other people are greedy, be fearful.
Like I kinda, I kinda live by that. Like I, well, one, it's certainly the way that I invest, but, but the other side is like, I, um, like I will go years and not even look at my investments.
And then when the market goes down, I'm just like, buy, buy, buy, buy, buy, buy, buy, buy, buy, buy, buy, buy, buy, buy, buy, buy, buy, buy, buy, buy, buy, just, you know, I'll be super active. And then the market will start to go back up and I was like, ah, and I'll forget that I even have the investments.
Like I literally won't even think about them. Um, I, uh, you know, when the market's going up, I literally forget that I even have stuff in the market, but the, I think for our industry, I think what you just described is a wonderful way to do it.
You know, like there was this craze for a while, where everyone was, everybody was mortgage brokers, mortgage brokers. And not that that has gone away necessarily.
But like, there's just everybody was talking about mortgage brokers, mortgage brokers. and like it just felt to me like okay if everyone's doing the mortgage broker play and not that you

couldn't get involved now there's plenty of opportunity i don't want to sound like that but

like Just everybody was talking about mortgage brokers, mortgage brokers. And like, it just felt to me like, okay, if everyone's doing the mortgage broker play, and not that you can get involved, now there's plenty of opportunity.
I don't want to sound like that. But like, geez, you know, what differentiates you from these other people? So, okay, if you're also going to go after mortgage brokers, you can't just say like, I'm going to do a good job, right? It's humanizing, personalizing.
You know, that video says, look, like, I'm willing to put my face out here because a random email is so easy. You know what I mean? You're not really taking a risk or a, or even a phone call, but like saying, here's something that you could share.
Like if I look like a dope or sound stupid, you could share this. Like there's some, there's some risk of reput, there's some reputational risk in there that I think keeps people from, from moving forward.
And, you know, I think, I think that's wonderful. I think it's absolutely

what you have to do. And dude, I couldn't be more happy and not that it means anything to you, but proud of you and the work that you did.
And, you know, we had a great lunch, you know, right when you were first starting. And I just, I think it's awesome to watch what you're doing.
And I can't wait till, you know, a year or two from now, I think you're going to be an absolute case study on what the first, you know, year, two year, three years of a scratch

agency looks like.

And, um, I'm just so happy for you.

Uh, yeah, well, just to correct you, it does mean something to me because I appreciate

you.

Uh, you've always been super, even when I was at the previous agency, I remember we

had a conversation and I'm like, Hey, I'm this little guy just down the road from me

in Utica.

And I, uh, this is what I'm thinking of doing.

You're like, do it.

Thank you. even when I was at the previous agency, I remember we had a conversation and I'm like, Hey, I'm this little guy just down the road from you in Utica.
And I, uh, this is what I'm thinking of doing. You're like, do it.
I remember you're like, buy a computer, buy this system and you'll be fine. Go ahead.
And, uh, so to now to fast forward here and we're talking about, you know, my own agency and stuff, it's, uh, it's, uh, it's, it's special. So I appreciate you having me on.
Well, I think in the not too distant future, not that this is the bar for what success is, but I do think that you'll be a household name in the industry in the not too distant future. I think it's tremendous.
I love what you and your crew of people, the scratch agency stuff that you're doing. I think these are the conversations that need to happen for so long.
Starting a scratch agency was almost, you know, it was like frowned upon because no one wanted additional competition or no one thought you could do it. And the result, and today I think to be, to be saying, look, like this stuff isn't easy, but it's, but it's achievable.
It's, it's real. You can do it.
Look at, we did it. Look at how we did it.
Like you can, this could be yours if you want. I think it's absolutely wonderful.
I think that, um, we need to hold up, uh, what scratch agents are doing and support them. And, and, uh, dude, I just, like I said, I couldn't be more happy for, for your early success.
And I can't wait to see, uh, where you take it. Um, if people want to learn more about you, more about your agency, if they want to connect with you, uh, see your podcast, like, uh, listen to your podcast, like where we tell them, give all the the all the CTAs.
Where do people go? Yeah, real quick, before I jump into that, I just want to say, if anybody's listening to this and there's a similar situation, maybe they feel like they're stuck and they they can't get out. Just remember, and I wish somebody said this to me earlier, that you're the only person that's going to make a change in your life, right? You are the only one.
There's a reason that the flight attendants tell you to put your mask on before helping others. And if you don't take that hard decision to do it, nothing's going to change.
So just do it. I just wanted to add to that because I love that, you know, I, I wish someone told me that early on.
Um, but yeah, like you said, I appreciate you saying the podcast, Sean Fitzgerald and I started a scratch agency podcast for like 17 episodes in and man, it has been just fun. You know, everyone's like, well, what's the plan with this, this and that it's just to have fun.
We've had great conversations. And so you can check us out there, uh, very active on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn at Steven Turnbull and then T5 insurance.
So anybody wants to pick my brain about anything we talked about today or just connect, we'd love to connect with new people and happy to have a conversation, but Ryan, thanks again for having me. I appreciate your friendship and, you know, your willingness to always help.
willingness to always help. It's much appreciated and look forward to working together in the future here.
Yeah, same, buddy. And we'll connect IRL here real soon.
So all the best to

you and we'll get out of here. All right.
Take care. Close twice as many deals by this time next week.

Sound impossible? It's not.

With the one-call close system, you'll stop chasing leads and start closing deals in one call.

This is the exact method we use to close 1 close 1200 clients in under three years during the pandemic. No fluff, no endless follow-ups, just results fast.
Based in behavioral psychology and battle tested, the one call close system eliminates excuses and gets the prospect saying yes more than you ever thought possible. If you're ready to stop losing opportunities and

start winning, visit masteroftheclosed.com. That's masteroftheclosed.com.
Do it today.