RHS 114 - Daniel Seong on Building a Good Life Out of the Insurance Industry

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In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home. Hello everyone and welcome back to the show.
Today we have an absolutely tremendous episode for you with Daniel Sung, the founder, president of Great Park Insurance out in California. You've probably heard some of Daniel's story.
He's been on David Carruthers' podcast, he's been on The Insurance Guys, he's been on Cass' podcast. And I just, you know, it's wild.
You know, sometimes I listen to all the podcasts from the other great podcasters in our industry. And I just, you know, I just hadn't had Daniel on the show.
And I felt like I know him so well. I follow him.
We interact online all the time. I have tremendous respect for the guy.
And it was just weird that, like, I think we had spoken on the phone like 15 minutes one time, like a few years ago, but we had never actually spent time. And that's really what this podcast is.
We don't rehash his story. He's got a tremendous story.
It's amazing. We talk a little bit about it, but really go listen to one of those other episodes if you want to hear the deep dive on Daniel's story.
I just wanted to get to know the guy. Like he just, you know, husband, father, business owner, you know, veteran, just tremendous, tremendous guy.
And I just wanted to get to know him better. And the beauty of this podcast is that I get to do that and share these conversations with you.
So I think you're going to absolutely love this show. I know I did.
Even if we didn't record it, this would have been an incredibly meaningful conversation to me. It was incredibly meaningful, is incredibly meaningful.
And I think hopefully now I can consider Daniel a friend and I think he might think the same. And that's a wonderful thing.
That's a wonderful thing, at least for me it is. So just enjoy this show.
You're going to love it. And if you do love it, leave a review, subscribe, tell a friend, whatever, all the things.
It helps the show grow, helps more people find the show and I appreciate that. Before we get there, I want to talk about today's sponsor and that is Tarmica.
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We could not be what we are in the 18 months that we've been in operation if it wasn't for Tarmica, hands down. Couldn't be what we are if it wasn't for Tarmica.
They've been a tremendous partner of ours and it has just been such a pleasure to have them as a sponsor for as long as we have because I just feel like every time someone signs up for Tarmica and starts using it, the industry gets a little better. We get a little better as an industry in serving small

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There's not really a whole lot to say at this point beyond that. T-A-R-M-I-K-A.com.
And on that vein, one of the companies making small commercial profitable is Coterie. Coterie insurance.
C-O-T-E-R-I-E, Coterie. Coterie insurance, small business insurance.
Guys, I had an agent on Twitter the other day ask me about who are the top tech forward carriers. And out of the five that I listed, Codery was one of them.
The way they make, how easy they make quoting, how easy they make binding, issuing. You can even send, let's say someone comes in and you can send them a link.
They can fill out all the information quote, bind, issue right there. And sometimes, I know you guys are saying, well, Ryan, we want to touch and talk to every one of our clients.
Well, yes, of course you do. But sometimes the customer just needs to get something done and it's not the type of policy that you need to have some hour-long epic fact-finding discussion with.
Sometimes it's somebody that just needs a $500 GL policy. And if they can answer a few questions, get that done, you're doing them a service.
And Coterie is one of the few companies who are stepping out front to really help agents deliver that kind of service, right? There's a reason that small commercial is tough to be profitable. And Coterie is one of the companies that is helping solve that problem.
We use Coterie here at Rogue Risk, and we're proud to be partnering with them. And frankly, we look forward to partnering even deeper with them and making them a more integral part of our agency just because I think they're headed on the right path.
I like the people. I like what they're doing.
They're smart. You know, Ray Lynch, former Liberty guy, just super smart people over there.
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All right, let's get on to Daniel Sung. Ryan, how are you? Daniel, what's going on, man? I feel like a long time, no talk.
Yes, that's actually true. That's why.
It's too long. I think we chatted for the first time, what, like two years ago? You know, I mean, it feels like I know you because, you know, just being in the same kind of network and things, but right.
I mean, we really don't know each other. Yes.
Not as well as I would. It was funny.
I was getting ready for the show and I don't do, I never do a ton of research on anybody, mostly because I either know the person really well or I purposefully don't want to do research because I don't know.

I just like being curious. And I feel like if you over prepare, you're less curious, whether that's right or wrong.

That's just the way I've always done it. And I had I had our conversation filed under.

Well, I just know him really well. So, you know, and then I started thinking, I'm like, well, you know, I think we spoke on the phone for like 15 minutes one time, like a few years ago, but I don't know that we've ever, ever actually like spent a lot of time.
So one, I'm very happy that we're finally getting to spend some time. I think it'll be fun for people that are listening to hear us catch up.
But it is pretty amazing that in today's world, I can live in New York, you can live in California, we can, you know, pretty much never have actually connected in even over the phone, and feel like we know each other pretty well. Yeah, yeah, I agree., I agree.
And, um, it's easy to find information on you because you're everywhere and you know, everyone, but, um, but yeah, I, I, it's, it's an honor and I'm, I was looking forward to this. Well, it's an honor for me.
I didn't, you know, I didn't know when I booked this, that I had like the fastest growing Tik TOK celebrity, like in, in the financial industry space, like, like million followers, just absolutely dominating. I didn't know, you know, you're the, you're the celebrity man.
No, not at all. But, but yeah, it just, we have a little family channel and I have fun with the kids and the wife with it.
Yeah. So I, you know, not to, I mean, I guess I didn't plan on starting at that spot, but like, just, you know, tell me about that because, you know, you say you love a little family channel, but you, you do have a lot of followers and stuff.
Like talk to me a little bit about just the, the, what it's like when you're doing this. Yeah.
I'm assuming you started it you know relatively just sharing some information you

know they're actually super valuable they're cool I to be honest with you I signed up for TikTok to

watch your TikToks which is cool and uh and I think they're awesome but like I'm sure when you

started it it wasn't like to be you know to have all these followers you're just sharing information

so what was it like when you started to see that number spin and you were like oh my gosh

Thank you. It wasn't like to be, you know, to have all these followers, you're just sharing information.
So what was it like when you started to see that number spin and you were like, oh my gosh, people are really connecting with what I'm putting out there. Yeah, it's up.
So it's kind of a sad story when we, so we started, our first video was January 4th of this year. And Christina, my wife, she has two older brothers, the oldest one being about 47, 48 years old, a spouse that works at home or she's a homemaker and they have three kids.
And all of a sudden, in the middle of the night, we get a phone call that he had a stroke. And it's been it's been almost a year now, but he's completely just paralyzed.
so so thinking thinking about that, you know, I, I, I told myself, I said, I am not going out like that. So I wanted to create TikTok just so the kids could have memories and video of daddy being silly and just kind of spending time together.
So, uh, for Christmas, my third daughter bought me a dad joke book, 365 jokes a year. And I was just going to read one joke and just kind of laugh.
And that was going to be a daily TikTok video. And now it's kind of evolved into more of a family channel.
But we went from, so January 4th was our first video. And up until right around May, I think we had about 450,000 followers.
And all of a sudden in June, we got up to 1 million. We were growing by 100,000 a week.
I think one point it was 100,000 in four days. And our biggest day was 50,000 in one day.
That's crazy. It really is.
And I think the people, I mean, it's all about editing and the content. But if you look at our videos, there are single frame shots, majority of them.
Because when Christina and I, and then we started just answering questions that our followers would ask. And it's a very simple concept and there's really no editing.
We push record, we answer the question. So it's a single frame, a lot of our videos.
So, you know, we're, our network is kind of growing a little bit as people are reaching out to us and we're talking to different influencers and they put sometimes through two, three days into editing a 60 second clip. And we think that's really cool because the video, there's all this stuff going on.
And they're telling me, no, Daniel, we're trying to do what you do. A single frame, no editing, no context, no all this fancy stuff, but still get viewers to watch your videos.
So, but it's, it's a very simple, basic channel, but a lot of it is marital advice, you know, raising kids or just kind of how we do things. Yeah.
And then I have this silly thing about, you know, me eating and I do the kind of this perfect bite type of thing and, you know, just to kind of make it fun, but I'm noticing the audience really does tell you what they want to see. Yeah, and what they want your channel, you know, when they come to your channel, they're coming to your channel for this one specific thing.
So in the beginning, I thought about doing all these different types of videos, but we're really narrowing it down.

How do you feel? And I know this is, you know, this was something to a much smaller scale that I that Sydney and I dealt with a lot at trusted choice.com and agency nation was like, same kind of deal, right? Like I completely agree with you and think you're a hundred, a hundred, a hundred percent.

Your audience tells you what they want, um, by views, by comments, by shares, by feedback.

They. of deal, right? Like I completely agree with you and think you're a hundred, a hundred, a hundred percent.
Your audience tells you what they want, um, by views, by comments, by shares, by feedback, they, you know, what stuff gets the numbers, but, um, you, one of the things that we used to talk about a lot was, um, sometimes what they want, isn't what you want to create or what you think is the most important

thing to create. So how much does the feedback you get, how do you, how do you manage the feedback versus what maybe you're inspired to create that day or whatever? Yeah.
So we, I mean, we're a wholesome channel.

Yeah.

We're not edgy.

We're not controversial.

But- So we, I mean, we're, we're, we're a wholesome channel. Yeah.
We're not edgy. We're not right.
Controversial. But a lot of the things that we share sometimes become controversial and there's this even a war or battle within the comments from the followers.
But we, we, we ultimately want to take the direction of, Hey, look, this is, this is for people who are having trouble in business sometimes or just in life or parenting or raising kids. So we really don't try to sway from that.
We really do have a general direction where we want to take it. But also knowing that, hey, there might be a question out there that we've never thought of, but this person is really in need of some advice.
So when we actually have a lot of people who are DMing us privately and sharing with us, oh my gosh, your story of being on food stamps, working your graveyard shift to really hit home with us, because that's what we're going through right now. And those are some of the best messages that we get.
And sometimes I'll say, Hey, look, what's your phone number? And I've reached out to a few people and just complete strangers. But, you know, just me reaching out for that five minutes really does make an impact on them.
Not because we're just huge influencer, but because it's just somebody that went through it and can share a little bit of insight with them to just let them know, hey, it's going to get better. There is a light at the end of the tunnel, but you have to work, right? You have to get after it.
And it's just not going to happen overnight. It's going to take maybe a few years to really get through this.
So it's just, you know, encouraging them,

empowering them. But also we started TikTok and I think the whole craze was probably about four

or five years ago when TikTok was just really booming. And I think the best time to get into

it was right when COVID hit. We're meeting a lot of people who have 5,000, 1 million, 15 million,

and they started right at that time where a lot of people were home and they were on their devices. And we really just started right after.
But even with TikTok, the best thing about it is my kids think their daddy's cool now. But they never thought that we would get to 10,000 followers because why would anybody be interested in what their daddy says? And all the things I make videos of, it's just what we tell our kids on a daily basis.
But, you know, I think that almost kind of validated my advice to them because now there's other people following. And what's really neat is I think TikTok, they localize it first.
they spread it out to the for you page around your local area and then they kind of you know branch it out but and now ryan every every time we go to the mall we go to the grocery store home depot anywhere we go we get people who come up to us and say hi you know say hey you guys are on tiktok so that that's been really fun too yeah it's wild that's so cool man i mean it's just it's um i think it's cool that you reach really fun too. Yeah, it's wild.
That's so cool, man. I mean, it's just,

it's, I think it's cool that you reach out to people. I think that the world needs as much positivity as it can get these days.
And I think, you know, I think your message, and I haven't said I haven't consumed every TikTok that you've created, but in the ones that I've watched and stuff like, um, I like, I like that you marry, um, empathy with responsibility. You know, I think that's a really, I think that's a really powerful mix.
Um, I, I'm, I've talked about a lot about how I'm a huge supporter of Jordan Peterson and his work and his message. And I find it to be similar.
I mean, obviously he's a, he's a different person from you, but the, the mix of being empathetic to someone who is in a position where they're in a dark place for whatever reason, or in a place they don't want to be, but at the same time, helping them understand that while you're not alone, you, you know, you still got to do the work to get to the, to get to that place. You know, if, if you want to get there and not have the same thing happen again.
Um, I think it's wonderful. I mean, I think the, and I, I'm, uh, you know, just, just as an outsider and again, you know, just watching you, uh, I couldn't be happier.
Uh, I think the people who watch your channel couldn't have gotten a better person to listen to and watch from. And I think I couldn't be happier for you that you've had this success.

I think it's a wonderful thing.

I appreciate that.

Thank you.

Yeah.

So, okay.

So we talked, we talked about TikTok, but, you know, I'm one of the things that also really impresses me that you, there's a lot that you do that impresses me. But another one of the things is just the general way in which you, I'm going to put this in a different way.
I find when I consume anything that you create, whether you personally have created or someone on your team or whatever, and whether it's something that has to do more about you or whatever, or the agency, it feels like anything that you're of, or, or at least most of the things, there's, um, a pretty decent attention to detail. And I'm wondering, is that, um, you know, where exactly do you think that comes from? One, do you think it's true? And two, where do you think that's, that comes from and why is it something that you seem to consistently pull through your life?

Yeah. I think it's a level of self-respect.
And there's so many outcomes that's come from this, but I've always, it's teaching my kids, no matter what you do, you got to put your best foot forward. And it's, I always, Ryan, and you know this, you're exactly like this.
Like at the end of the day, I always wanted to be able to come home and look in the mirror and say, you know what, I tried today. I absolutely did my best today.
The outcome might not always be what you're wanting. But a lot of times we don't have control of the outcome.
We have control of what we can do. So even with the office, there's a few things that we put a lot of attention to.
And even growing the team, I've struggled with leading by example. I've struggled with clearly getting my vision from my head through my mouth to the team.
but it's something that we work on on a daily basis. And I think leadership and respect from the team doesn't happen overnight.
I think there just has to be this consistency and discipline that comes from the leader throughout years and years and years. And it's tough, right? I mean, it's lonely at the top, but a lot of it just comes down to self-respect.
And a lot of people say, well, you probably got that from the Marine Corps. And I probably did to a certain degree, but also just watching my parents when I was a kid, just being so consistent and detailed.
But that's something that we do at home. And also, So that's something that we try to, you know, when I was a kid, just being so consistent and detailed.
But that's something that, you know, we do at home. And also, that's something that we try to, you know, kind of carry over into the agency.
Yeah, I, I had never thought of discipline as a show of self respect, although I completely, I mean, that seems to make complete sense to me. You know, I, have you ever read the book Atomic Habits by James Clear? No, I haven't.
Yeah, I would, I would, I would recommend it if you, if you're into reading, I'm not sure if you are, but if you are, there's a book called Atomic Habits, but it's by a guy by the name of James Clear. It's a fairly straightforward read, but one of the main concepts in there is really, it's about building habits.
And there's some books that are kind of like wonky on habits. They just, it's kind of like a duh kind of stuff.
It's not real deep. What I really liked about how James Clear broke down this concept was we wake up every morning and we have a certain amount of willpower, almost like a video game, right? Like we have like a power pack, like a little green line.
And through the day, every decision that we have to make breaks down, you know, uses up some of that willpower. And if, you know, if you get good sleep and you take care of yourself and you're healthy, maybe you're, you're, you're, you have more power.
If you're exhausted and you're eating crap and you're hung over, then your willpower bar is very low. Well, his idea with habits is the reason habits are important is because when you develop a habit, particularly a positive habit, it doesn't use as much of the willpower thing.
and and and my reason my reason for bringing that up is um when we go through our day as leaders

we're trying to do something, we're trying to get things done. There are a lot of very difficult decisions that we have to make, even if they're not earth shattering to the overall decisions, their decision.
And, and, and that decision will have a repercussion, large or small. And each one of those decisions is whacking down that willpower.
And what I've found is, and this is something I've really, really had to work on at Rogue, is that you never know when the really important decision is going to come up. The person who calls you and says, Daniel, I'll sponsor your TikTok channel for $10 million, but you have to change the name to this thing over here, right? And you need to do this extra segment every week that isn't part of your show today.
And now you have a major decision that is presented in front of you. And if you only have a tiny bit of willpower because you haven't had the discipline to put habits in throughout your day, now you can't be the best version of yourself when you need to make that decision, because you didn't know that was coming.
And I found, I found that to be a challenge and something I'm, I'm, I'm actually working on it right now. I'm trying to be healthier and get more sleep and all this kind of stuff.
Because you just, you never know when a decision or an opportunity or something's going to hit you that you have to make a really, you have to make a really important decision. And if your willpower isn't there, if that bar, whatever it is, isn't as, as filled as possible as it could be, then, you know, bad things start to happen.
You cut a corner. Yeah.
You don't, you don't dot every I, you don't cross every T or whatever. And, um, um, you know, that's where mistakes, mistakes start to come in.
Yeah, I completely agree. And I think that's where I always tell people, I say 50% of winning is just showing up.
And then if you're decent, you know, you're become, you know, the top 30, 20%, but that even 10%, but that 2% is a dogfight. And that's exactly what you just mentioned, right? Is when you when it really, really matters, and you have to make that tough decision as a leader, right? Do you make the right decision? Or do you make the easy decision? So I think you nailed it.
Yeah, it's just, it's interesting, man. I mean, your story is so complex.
And I don't want to make you retell the whole thing, because you've done an excellent job on different podcasts, like with David Carruthers and, and the insurance guys. And I'd highly recommend anyone who wants the full backstory to go listen to their awesome episodes, and highly recommend those.
But you know, I'm, I'm really interested. So, so you've kind of you've gotten through these, some of these hard times, right? You had the business, the business went up, you know, you were on food stamps, you're working through, you've built yourself back up a whole second time.
You know, you've been in the military, you know, life hasn't been easy, but now you're in a place where if someone were to come into your story today and snapshot, you might get some of the nonsense. And I've gotten this at different times in my life too, where they're like, you know, everything's so easy for you, Daniel.
You know what I mean? What are you talking about? Like, look at your life, man. You got this great agency, the branding, you know, all these people, beautiful family, everybody's love, the TikTok thing.
You mean like they could snapshot it and start to, um, uh, like uh like not like tear you down a little bit like diminish all the crap that you had to work through and struggle through to get to to this moment which which you know which is uh at least from the outside uh looks amazing um how do you like from here now that you're not you know i'm assuming you're not grinding every day a little bit of money in the bank you know things are a little bit better a little more comfortable. How do you, like from here, now that you're not, you know, I'm assuming you're not grinding every day, a little bit of money in the bank, you know, things are a little bit better, a little more comfortable.
How do you keep yourself sharp today in this next phase of your career and your life? Yeah, what a great question. And first, I want to say life is a lot better now than it was when we were really, you know, struggling.
But just so are nowhere near where we want to be. And it is not as good as it seems.
But it was interesting because the business that we're in, Ryan, man, I never knew how good it could get. And I don't have a huge agency.
I think our size is we're an $8 million agency now. 95% personalized before the beginning of this year.
And then we have about 5% commercial. And our sole focus this year was to really grow the commercial side.
So now what's really encouraging is we're new business every month we're looking at about 50 premium is is commercial so we're really growing that it's a lot of fun new goals um and and things are working and to think i'm there's so many things that there's so many points I want to make here. You know what I did this summer, Ryan? This is how good we have it now.
This summer, so my kids, my son who was six years old a year ago, he started tennis. And then my fourth daughter started, or two months later started tennis.
And then my third and fourth, and they also, and then my, so everybody plays tennis now. And we're just, we do about 22 hours a week during summer for each kid.
And we're just in it, right? I got to be honest, I have not been so unfocused in my life with the agency. So during summer, my schedule was I was in the office a couple of days a week because I was just out with them.
And I thought about, man, I couldn't do this 10 years ago. And to have premium keep growing every month this year and to have revenue increase with me less in the office.
It just, what, what a joy, what, what, what a joy, you know, the, the business that we're in. Um, but what's really interesting now is my oldest daughter is a junior now, and we're having that talk about what's your future, what do you want to do? What school do you want to go to.
And one of the conversations were, well, what if I come work with daddy after college? And it hit me like a box of bricks. And I knew that time would eventually come because I have five of them, right? One of them has got to come work with me at least, I would imagine.
But to realize that she's going to possibly

be here sooner than later, it almost, I, I almost felt, um, vulnerable and I felt exposed in a way

because daddy talks to them about business up here where they have no experience at all.

So everything that I say is this just, wow, it's wisdom. Yeah.
Yeah. But I'm, it, it hit me because

I'm going to go just even talking about it with you is there's so much room to grow. Yeah.

There's, you know, why are we an $8 million agency right now? Why? Why can't we be a $30 million agency? And what do we need to do to get there? So I always talk to the team and my kids about, you always have to operate with the end in mind. You know, if that's your goal, then all the work from now to that goal should, you should welcome it.
You should welcome all the sweat and the work and the hours that go into something like that. If that's, if you're focusing on the end in mind.
Yeah. So I'm really excited for this second part of my life with the agency.
We have new schools. And that's what's kind of pumping me up.
I'm more excited now than I think when I first started the agency. And my first five years, I took seven days off working a couple jobs, right? I was working from home, and I didn't have a team.
I was building, I was doing EOIs, ID cards, binds, code, everything I was doing by myself. And with the second job, my income was around 400,000 that year with the second job.
And I could have done that forever, it seems like, but I had a goal and to get to that next goal, right? You know, there's some changes that you have to make, obviously. So, and I don't know why I mentioned that right now.
There was a point I was trying to make, but yeah, but I'm just, I'm just excited. I'm excited to grow it.
And I'm excited that my kids are going to be coming into it. And I'm going to make the decisions now so that when my kids do come into the business, I'm not embarrassed.
Yeah. That, that is one of those fears that, um, I can completely understand why you have that, but you know, hopefully you don't take this the wrong way, but I can say probably with a hundred percent certainty that it's irrational.
You know what I mean? That they would come in and be blown away by what you're doing. Like, I get it.
Like, I completely understand what you're saying. At the same time, there's no way that you would be embarrassed when they got in there.
I, you know, geez, I mean, I just think about how emotional it would be to have your junior and high school daughter tell you that she wants, that she's considering versus college coming and working or, or college in, in addition to, um, although save the money and go work for you. You'll get a better education today.
Um, I shouldn't say that. Um, uh, but, uh, I, you know, what a, an amazing just, you know, the amount of respect and trust and caring and all that in testament to how you've dealt in the relationship you build with your children that she would consider that because that's wonderful.
I mean, the other side of it, too, is, man, she's probably going to be a baller. I mean, she comes into the business at 18.
I mean, geez, I mean, think about how much of a start that she'd have on everyone else, um, in the space. I mean, it's, you don't need a college education to do this job.
Yeah. Yeah.
But you know, you know what I would do, right? Just so that I make sure that they appreciate it more, you know, I would have them go to school and then also I would have them work somewhere else, you know, somewhere in the insurance space. Yeah.
Right. And then come work with daddy, probably in their mid twenties, late twenties, just so that they can appreciate, you know, what, what they have here.
That's what my wife did. So my wife worked for, um, she, uh, went to university Rochester.
That's where I met her. So we both went to university of Rochester.
And then, um, she went and worked for Marsha McLennan in New York city. And she worked for Marsha in New York.
She then worked for Marsha in Boston, moved back to the New York office, uh, that whatever, but she worked for Marsha for like three years, I think, um, doing, you know, mega, you know, the big, huge accounts, the, the fortune, you know, the Dow Jones 30 accounts or whatever. And then when we decided to move, we both were living in New York City at the time.
We decided to move home to Albany, where we're both from. She actually went and worked for another agency in the Albany area versus her dad's agency because she didn't just want to come back and go right to her dad.
And then she worked there for like six months. I was basically telling her like, you're an idiot.
Like she's not actually an idiot, but I was like, you know, your, your dad is this amazing agency and he needs you. And you know what I mean? And then she moved over, but like that, when she came in, she came in with both.
And one of the cool things for her dad was now you're bringing in someone to your office who has all this experience and understanding that they can then compare against what you're doing and add different processes and features and thought processes that may not be there. So it gives you this amazing advantage.
And they, like you said, have an appreciation for what you've built and all that. So's a smart idea, but it, but it's got to be a pretty cool feeling.
Yeah. Yeah.
And I'm going to raise my hand here because I've always had a question for you. I never reached, I never reached out to you, but in the same respect with your daughter, not going into her dad's agency.
And, you know, I bet that was an option for you too.

But, but you, you know, for whatever reason you didn't and you started rogue insurance or rogue risk in the start of COVID. First time in the history, something like this has ever happened where the world shuts down businesses

are 40 you know 40 50 years in business they're they're shutting down you know everyone is scared

like you gotta share with me the mindset and the thought process and and did you did once you did

it a month or two into it did you were you second guessing it i mean you gotta tell me because you

you gotta have laws of steel my friend what's up guys sorry to, you got to tell me because you got to have laws of steel, my friend.

What's up, guys? Sorry to take you away from the episode. But as you know, we do not run ads on this show.
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So I'll say just to give a little context to this, the way things ended with trustedchoice.com was less than optimal. The way things ended with bold penguin was less than optimal.
And I was straight shit canned by the fitness business. Um, so I walked out of there saying to myself two things.
One, I was floored that, you know, I started to say to myself, like, is something wrong with me? You know what I mean? Like what's wrong with me that I've had three jobs that by all accounts should be good jobs. And all three of them ended suboptimally with the third being the most, you know, whatever, I won't get into details, but I've just done it on other shows.
So, so I'm, I'm, it's 836 on a Monday morning, October 6th of 2019. I I'll remember it forever because it was like this surreal moment.
Um, and you want to talk about like a meeting, like a, like a business style, like never bring a knife to a gunfight. I show up for our stand, our sitting eight 30 meeting, um, which my, which my, the founder of the business had confirmed, which he never did.
So that was kind of weird. Hey, you're going to be there, right? Yeah, of course.
And I'm in gym clothes because as the CEO of a fitness business, that's what you wear. You wear like Lululemon.
That's just, you know what I mean? Like, that's what you wear. You don't, you don't get it dressed in the suits or whatever.
Cause you work out during the day because you want to be around your members so you want to like engage with them so um so whatever uh and he shows up with his attorney in a in a suit i knew i was in trouble but okay so i i leave that meeting and um i said to myself like this is universe God, if you believe in God, I do, but, but, but the universe, the muse, whatever you want to say, telling me that, um, I have to, I have to go do something on my own, that this is, it was time that, that I had had these opportunities. Um, all of them have ended suboptimally.
I learned lessons from

all of them, but what was I going to do? Go work for someone else again and just have the same

thing happen again? Obviously there was some friction that I wasn't seeing. I called my wife

and I said, it's time. I have notebooks, both figurative notebooks and literal notebooks filled

Thank you. And I called my wife and I said, it's time.
Like I have this, I have notebooks, both, you know, figurative notebooks and literal notebooks filled with, with ideas and thoughts from conversations that I've been a part of, you know, 10,000 conversations in my trusted choice days, conversations I should have never been part of on the 42nd floor of the Travelers Building, listening to, you know, executives who know the industry, who sweat out things that you and I will never know about the business. You know, having these conversations, I was sitting there listening and I just said, I would be, I would be doing myself, my family, obviously, whatever it is that's pulling the strings in the universe, a disservice.
If I don't take a shot at this, because it keeps ending poorly, like, like to keep doing this would be a mistake. And, um, and she agreed for some reason.
Um, I did go talk to my father-in-law. So I did say that I went and I sat with him and I said, look, um, this is what I want to do.
Um, is this something that you would be open to me doing with you somehow, you know, in the agency? And he said, I think that it would be a better idea if you did it on your own. And I don't mean that as, uh, he wasn't being a jerk.
You know what I mean? He was my father and I have a tremendous relationship. And he just said, I think this, this sounds you need to go do on your own.
And I've been working every day since. And just because our industry takes forever to get anything done, I wasn't able to open.
Even though the business was formed January 2nd, I wasn't able to open the doors because of appointments and whatever until March 9th. And March 16th, the zombie apocalypse hit upstate New York.
So that was really tough. I was fully committed to killing commercial middle market.
We're going to go out and dominate this. I'm going to marry digital and what David teaches.
And all of a sudden I couldn't get anyone. I mean, who are you going to call in March of 2020? Who are you going to call on the phone? So I'll be honest with you, like this is going to sound crazy because I know that it's not this isn't reality.
But a big part of me says that COVID, at least for me is, this is going to sound odd to say this, but it was again, the universe, God, whatever you want to say, showing me that middle market commercial was not my path, that this wasn't what I was meant to do. I was raised in a town of 900 people.
Um, I grew up, you know, the moments that you've had in your life i lived those as a child um and uh small business the people that that that run those businesses that that that bleed on the floors that they sweep every day like those are the people that i care about connect to want to help give a shit about And during that time, and just the fact that I couldn't do anything with middle market is when I pivoted to small business and ultimately became the driver of what Rogue is today, which our tagline is small business insurance on autopilot. And, you know, that's, that's been my mission is, you know, we, our goal is 125,000 small business accounts in five years.

That's what we mission is, you know, we, our goal is, is 125,000 small business accounts in five years.

That's, that's what we're trying to get to.

125,000.

You know, I think that's so smart, Ryan.

I think that's so smart that you are able to identify exactly where you naturally fit in.

And I don't think enough people take a step back and evaluate because, you know, to be honest with you, you know,

I don't think enough people take a step back and evaluate, because, you know, to be honest with you, you know, we're, we were 95% personalized, but it just sounds cool to say we're 70% personalized and 30% commercial. It just sounds cool.
And I think a lot of us just kind of get trapped in that. And that's why I feel, you know, and that's why people like you and all the other leaders in the industry is like, it's so good that you guys are creating these platforms where,

I mean, I guarantee you, you probably have never turned down a Facebook request where

some new agent comes into the business and wants some advice.

You know, I think it's just so neat.

And I don't think people do that enough where they reach out to people and just say, like what you did, right? Or what I did. And I think it's so crucial, but for you to have that self-awareness, because to be honest with you, there are a lot of small commercial agencies that are very successful.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
And there's a lot of PL agencies that are successful. I didn't know, I didn't even know there was such thing as a cluster when I first got into the business.
You know, I had to read up on deductible, right? So it was, and personal lines was just a path of least resistance. It was just easy for me.
And we're in a, we're, we're in Orange County, California. There is, we'll never run out of potential clients, personal lines clients, right? So it was just, that's the way I did it.
And I wouldn't even dare step into middle market. I just don't know what you know.
But how cool is that you went through, you have all these connections, you have all the knowledge in the world so that when the middle market does come up for you, you know how to attack it. I think that's so cool.
And let me just say this also, how cool is it that we're in an industry and not even in the industry, but we're on the independent side. Yeah.
I just, I'm having lunch with a buddy of mine who is, uh, with a very, very big captive carrier for a very, very, very long time, 15 plus years, very successful. And they're one of the highest producers in the captive world here in Orange County.
We're having lunch because he wants to come independent. Yeah.
Unbelievable. It's, you know, I think, so going back to your point about the taken frame requests, I, and I, I see this in the people that I envy that and envy is the wrong way.

I'm okay.

Envying people like the people that I want to emulate the Chris Paradiso's cruz is a great example.

You know, cast a great example for as crazy as that asshole is, you know, they, they, there is a serendipity to life that I believe in. I believe that you have to have a pretty big ego to believe that you can predict what's going to happen.
And that all you can really do is connect with as many people as you can, help as many people as you can, give as much as you possibly can, and hope that when you need to take some of that back, that you've deposited enough into the bank, the karma bank account, I'm mixing like 17 religions and thought process here that, that, that, that it's there for you. And what I found in my life is that that has been true over and over and over again.
And in that it's the people, if you're just a taker, if you just take, if you just find, Oh, you know, I'm going to connect with this person because I want to sell them something, or want them to give me something or I want them to do something for me. If that's all you ever do, then those things, your road is much, much harder.
So what is, you know, if you're reading some business consultant book about time blocking and all this nonsense, and, you know, they'd tell you, don't take that 20

minute phone call with the rookie from Illinois, who, who, who may never be anything ever to you

ever. Don't take that 20 minute phone call.
I feel the exact opposite and always have,

I'm going to take that phone call all day. And did I make one less sales phone call or send one

less sales email? Yes. Yes, I did do.
I did do one less of those things. But to me, the 20 minutes

Thank you. And did I make one less sales phone call or send one less sales email? Yes.
Yes, I did do. I did do one less of those things.
But to me, the 20 minutes with the kid from Illinois is a way more valuable deposit into the universe than the sales call. Because I can always make another sales call, but I may not always have the opportunity to connect, share time, add some sort of value to the life of some other person.
And that is how I've lived my life as much as I can. Obviously, I'm not perfect.
But I've just found that man to be, that's, that has been a valuable strategy. What it ends up being, though, is a very zigzaggy strategy.
And if you have to be okay with that, you have to be okay with that. Yeah.
And I think that's why our industry is so great because, and I'm not sure if other industries are like this. And I've talked to clients and other people who are in business and it's, it's, you know, they'll, I mean, they'll knock out the competition as soon as they can, they'll punch them out.
But, you know, like today after the, our podcast, I'm me, I'm having lunch with five other agency owners because we haven't seen each other in a while. And we're just, we're going to go hang out.
Right. But what happened, but what happens when we all hang out, all we talk about is the business and family and we're, we're sharing, you know, what we're doing, you know, how we're doing it.
So, I mean, and, and we're all right here. If somebody online searches insurance, they'll get our offices, right? But we're doing it.
So, I mean, and we're all right here. If somebody online searches insurance, they'll, they'll get our offices, right.
But we're there to help each other out and there's enough for everybody. So I love it.
I love it. That, that, that is, I, here's the other thing too.
And so, so I've been in the business for 16, 16 years. I started in 2005.
And it has not always been this way. This is a relatively new thing.
Now, granted, has there always been groups of agents? Yes. But they would be like, and this is not a knock on Scott Addis, but it would be like Scott Addis's thing where you would have one in each geographical region.
So you weren't really competitors. um you know to a Big Eye event, again, and this is not a knock on a Big Eye, everyone would kind of keep their cards close to the vest.
They'd shake each other's hand. They'd go have some beers.
They'd go on the golf course together. But everyone would kind of keep their tactics and their tricks and their people very close to the vest.
It was like, don't send your producers. They'll get poached.
There's all these kinds of ideas. And, um, you know, that this has changed.
And I don't know if it's generationally, I don't know if it's because of social. I think social has a big, big thing to do with it.
Us being able to connect. Um, but that is completely changed.
Uh, there's a guy right over here, uh, calling an agency, Sean Colton's his name. Uh, He's actually holds the New York State non-tested,

tested. So non-enhanced.
He wasn't juicing or anything. He had to get tested.
The heaviest deadlift in the history of New York State, 895 pounds, insurance agent right over here in Troy,

New York. And I see him in my gym all the time.
He's a good guy. And like, you know, we go and have lunch and I tell him what I'm doing.
He talks a little bit about and we're just like you're doing. Right.
And you're like. Ten years ago, we would have never done those things.
It would have been a culture of you do not share secrets. And today that is different.
And I am. It's one of the things that I'm the most happy about in our space is that you can go have lunch with six, the six independents.
And you're like, not enemies. You're like a little mafia.
You know what I mean? Like, it's great. It's a wonderful thing.
And I think a lot of the year, I think you nailed it. You know, I think social has a lot to do with that.
I think Dave Jackson, Nick Ayers, right? Creating IAOA is huge. Yeah.
Right. But also people, Jason, I love Jason Cass, by the way.
I mean, David Carruthers, you with your podcast, with Bradley and Scott, just bringing people together, right? I mean, because you're not going to have somebody come on and not talk about the business or what they're doing or how they're doing it, right? But that just creates opportunity for other people who are listening to reach out to them and start sharing. So I think you guys have just created this ecosystem.
And really, you've changed the industry culture in a way. Now, there's a lot of agencies who are not a part of our groups here.
But that's okay. With the small percentage that we do have, look what we're doing.
And you guys are the pioneers of it. I would be proud to say all my five kids are in the business.
I would just be so proud because opportunities are endless. I'm happier today than I've ever been.
And again, I don't have millions in the bank by no means, but I'm doing all the things that I want to do. Yeah, I'm doing all the things I want to do.
And it's, it's wonderful. I want to I want to go back quickly to a comment that you made about during summertime when your kids were playing tennis, which by the way, the videos of your son playing tennis were awesome.
And, and I heard you on a different podcast talking about, um, how proud you were about how hard he's worked. I mean, it's just amazing.
I'm kind of going through the same thing. My oldest is seven and this was his first year, um, kind of, he was in T-ball, but this was his first year of like real baseball and he was on the travel team.
And it was like, and I was coaching and like, it is, um, it is, it's a very, it's a very interesting feeling, a very, uh, interesting feeling to watch your kids do something. And like the pride that you feel for them and all that, like, I'm going to get emotional just talking about it, but, um, and now my youngest one is in it too.
So it's, it's pretty cool. But, um, you made a comment about, uh about you were only in the office a couple of days a week and that you were amazed or I'm going to forget exactly what you said, but that you were able to do that, that you've set your business up in a way.
and and I think something and and my thought when I heard you say that was one that's amazing it's awesome you're obviously doing something right both from a hiring and process perspective and I know know that you've had some really smart process driven people into Great Park just from your social. So that's that's a wonderful thing.
I would love for you to talk a little bit about just from the the leadership mental side of dealing with that. I feel like a lot of people struggle to detach themselves to say my role here.

If you make one decision a week that drives the business forward, that puts your people in a place to be successful, that's you doing your job, right? Because the buck ultimately stops with that. So I think it's really difficult, I think, for a lot of leaders in our industry to say to themselves, they'll say, I can't get out of the business.
I can't, I got to be here. What if something happens? And what happened, they drive themselves into this like kind of place of bitterness and a little bit of depression.
So I think it's a wonderful example that you're able to do that. How do you deal with that mentally? Or did it come naturally? It did not come naturally at all, Ryan.
I mean, up and just be just to be completely transparent this january is when i walked away for the fourth time quoting and binding this january

um and you know you know what it's like you know walking away it's like but i've accepted the fact

that i'm probably not the best at doing something there's probably people who are better

I'm probably not the best at doing something. There's probably people who are better.
I accepted the fact that I'm going to, you should have written the email response this way. And I just, if what's really helped me was if I'm trying to get to this end goal, I know I'm not going to do it by producing myself.
So I figured the team is more powerful than me by myself. So now do I get anxiety about, oh man, they canceled this month? And I always wonder, man, if I would have just stepped in or if I would have handled that, I wonder if they would have canceled.

That kind of a thing.

So, you know, it's just a lot of it was trust in the team. And so a lot of people ask me, man, how big is your team now?

Like, you're just growing so fast.

And I tell people, look, we post all the new hires, but we don't post the fires.

And I go through a lot of people, man, you know, and because I don't hire off of resume. I don't at all.
I look at the resume to be respectful when they walk in, but I want to, I want to, how, how early did they get there? What are they wearing? How are they talking to me? And what's their mannerisms? I look at all those little things. And a lot of the people that I hire aren't licensed, but we get them licensed.
We get them trained. And some people are licensed, but it's picking the right people.
I fire pretty quickly. My fastest fire was lunchtime where they started that morning and I fired them at lunch.
It was best for them. It was best for us.
And they were fully licensed. I thought it was going to be amazing, but I figured it out pretty quickly.
So a lot of work, you have to just accept the fact that you're going to train for two, three months. They might not work out.
Did it cost time and money and energy? 100%. But if you don't do that, then you're not going to grow.
So first, hiring the right people, firing the right people, and then really just trusting them.

In the very beginning, they were giving me a hard time because they're not used to me not being there so often.

And I tell you, it was a couple of days a week.

But to be honest, it was a couple of hours every day.

Or I would go in Tuesdays and Thursdays for a couple of hours in the morning, and I would bounce.

But everything now is online.

I can see everything.

See you next week. Or I would go in Tuesdays and Thursdays for a couple hours in the morning and I would bounce.
But everything now is online. I can see everything.
All of our phone calls are recorded. And not that I don't trust them, but they know they're aware of that.
But also just training them, trusting them, making it fun, letting them know that, hey, you have complete control of what, how you handle this situation. As long as you're not abusive to the client or you're not stealing or doing anything illegal, I trust you 100% that you're going to handle this situation the right way.
So I think that is very powerful, letting them know that no matter what happens, I got your back. So even if they cancel, right, I got your back.
So that that's been really helpful. Yeah, I, I have a similar, I have a similar hiring process.
I, I look at the resume, but I just care so much about the person it is, you know, and, and, and, you know, I, I've made hiring mistakes in the past. I feel like the people I have today, I said, I was talking to, so I, I, my first hire for Rogue, um, was my first non VA.
So we have a VA who's actually coming up on his one year anniversary with agency VA. He's been great.
Uh, his name is Nathan we love him. But my first person here in the States who, Nat's great, but he kind of does the handles transactions.
He just kind of shows up and does his thing. But my first person here in the States, she had never worked in the retail side of the business.
She was actually coming from Claims, USAA and, uh, she, you know, had never worked in the retail side of the business. She came, was coming, actually coming from claims USA.
And, um, she was, um, uh, marrying a state trooper up here in New York. So she was moving from Texas to New York.
And, uh, I just, I got on the phone or the zoom with this woman. And like in five minutes, I was like, I'm going to hire her.
Like, I just, I just knew it. Like, cause, cause she was taking a piss, right? Like she was in the British sense, not actual, you know what I mean? Like she was, she was, she wasn't putting up with my crap.
You know what I mean? She was like, um, she was, uh, she was, she, I was saying things and she was just not in a, not in a jerky way, but, but I need people who are going to be honest with me. You know what I mean? And bam, bam, bam, bam.
And she's coming back. And I was just like, this is what I need.
So I hired her as an account manager, but I immediately what's interesting. And this is maybe EOS.
I don't know if you're familiar with entrepreneurs operating system, EOS Paradiso got me hooked on it. And then Namoli has helped me a little bit with it too.
But she was right person, wrong seat. So she was the right person for our business 100%, but the wrong person to be an account manager.
So she had a very good friend from Florida who had six years of experience and had had kids and needed to take some time off from the business because of the kids, but now the kids were older and she was ready to come back. So then I hired her to come in and replace Sarah as our account manager.
We call them client success managers. And Sarah became an operations person.
And, and, and now I have two people and Leslie's amazing as well. Now I have two people who are right person, right seat.
So it was like, I knew I had the personality right for the business. I just didn't have the right seat for her.
And then once I found the right seat and she was great as an account manager, but it just, I could tell. And it's like, it's funny, man, when you see that click over and you get right person, right seat, it's like, it's like something changes, you know, there's just like a, it's almost like a little, like a little, like, you know what I mean? Like a little confetti explosion, like, boom, you found it.
Like the, the square, square, you know, round peg, round hole kind of thing. And, you know, and, and sometimes it's just wrong person, wrong business.
You know what I mean? That happens too. But, but that right person, I think sometimes we, you just got to find the right seat for someone if you hire on personality and,

you know, or you could do Billy Wagner's thing. And, and I love Billy to death, but like his 65.3 month hiring process or whatever it is, which I just, I love Billy to death.
I got 15 minutes into him explaining that in a webinar one time. And I was like, Billy, this is why you are who you are and you dominate but i I can never do that.
So you've boomed this last year. So how big is the team now? So I have three people here in the States.
Now, I will say I don't take a salary in the business yet. So I'm reinvesting.
And I'm lucky enough with the podcast and having a wife who has a decent job. You know, right now, I shouldn't say decent job.
She's a great job. Um, you know, I'm not taking any money out of the business.
I'm reinvesting that all of, you know, anything that I would take back into people. So I have a salesman who, uh, works, who lives in Chicago.
His name is Matt. He's awesome too.
Um, so I don't want to discount Matt. I just wanted to tell a story about right butt, right seat.
Um, and then I have an operations manager and a, and a client success manager. So, um, you know, that the three of them, I mean, I took it, I, I went on a, I went to New Jersey for four days and logged in like twice and the three of them rocked it.
You know what I mean? I mean, they're awesome. So I guess now my goal is to figure out how to keep them.
Well, okay. So let me ask you this.
Yeah. So that's, I mean, that's pretty big success.
I mean, starting in COVID, right. In the thick of things, where do you see road risk? Not even 20, but just five years from now, where do you five years would be really tough.
My five-year goal would be kind of crazy because of what we're doing. So our, our game plan is everything that everyone talks about with home mortgages, the home, the mortgage referral process, we're doing that, but for small business.
So we are, um, if you are any kind of platform with business customers, particularly small business customers, we are the engine that you attach to, to build a deeper moat around your business, offer additional value to your customers and monetize those customers by offering them either an embedded insurance product where we can actually embed the ability to quote right inside your solution, or we have a full referral platform where people will just forward us emails, calls, and we build custom landing pages for our for our partners as well so you know my belief is small business is so fragmented because small business owners they don't know who to trust and the customer experience for purchasing small commercial often is terrible so what I'm trying so my methodology is I'm going to go find people who are, cause, cause I don't care if the small business like knows rogue, I want them to be properly protected. Now, obviously I need them to know rogue over time, but there's so, so many small businesses either underinsured or improperly insured because they don't know who to trust and they don't take the time.
So they do things themselves. So if I can take a platform that has their trust because they're doing their payroll and we can provide them with the opportunity to get good coverage that's reviewed by one of my licensed people that they then cross sold things like cyber if they need we're tracking, you know, their comp that we're handling them.
You know, we, we, we went, um,

versus common, uh, belief. We went very broad, very fast.
So we write in all 50 States, uh,

lower 48. Um, and we write every class of small business that exists.
So I have, you know, wholesale partners, direct partners, you know, network partners, and it's a lot to manage. But the reason is, and this is at the core of our business is no customer left behind.
I believe that no customer should be told, you know, your business is too small or your business is too difficult to work with. I got to fill out a cord form.
So screw you. That's the kind of stuff that, that these guys here, or, or it's going to take a month to get back to you because really, I don't want to deal with you.
So I'm just going to hope you go away. Like, no, that I don't believe that that's right.
I small businesses are the crux of our, of our country. It's what makes our country so special is that you get to own these businesses that are yours.
And, and, and I want to be as supportive of that ecosystem as I can. And this is the thing.
So our goal is to have 6,000 clients by the end of 2022. That's, that's our goal.
Wow. 6,000 clients.
Wow. And it's, it's refreshing and it's actually really encouraging for, to see how passionate and excited you are in this podcast.
There was two moments where you were really excited when you're talking about your kid playing tee ball and right now, and right now. So to have you be that excited, the same as your kid playing tee excited when you're talking about your kid playing t-ball and and right now

and right now so to have you be that excited the same as your kid playing t-ball when you is is encouraging because not too many people you know i i i think you did the right thing you you picked your your niche and you're running with it i think it's so smart i hope what people take away from this show is that, um, I hope what people take away from this is how with, with, with some passion and determination, you can build whatever the F you want. Your thing is different from my thing in a lot of different ways, no better, no worse.
It's exactly what you want it to be and, and can be whatever you want it to be in the future, right? It was 95.5. Now you're moving towards 70.30.
And that's what you wanted it to be. That's tremendous.
And my thing is different. And I think that is the absolute beauty of the independent insurance space is that you get to build what fits you and your life and your family and what makes you happy.
And all the mechanisms are there and all the people that support you exist. I mean, you could pick up the phone and call any number of a dozen people and they would either give you an insight, a tool, a connection, a whatever you needed to help you get further.
And that's available to everyone if they ask. And it's not just, you know, people who go on podcasts, it's available to all of us.
And that's why I love this space, man. It's why I do this stupid show.
And it's why I love talking to dudes like you. Yeah, I love it, man.
And again, it's a long overview. Yeah, yeah.
Well, hopefully next, we won't take so long the next time to make it happen. But hey, I appreciate you, man.
I think that, you know, obviously, it's been from afar to a certain extent, but I have the utmost respect for you what you do. And I just couldn't be more happy for you that you are now in a place that you can take some time for yourself and be with your family.
I think it's a wonderful thing. And I just wish you nothing but continued success.

Likewise, my friend. Thank you again.
Absolutely. Be good, man.
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