RHS 104 - Heath Shearon on Becoming the Mayor of Insurance Town

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In a crude laboratory in the founder of the Insurance Town podcast. Now, we talk a little bit about Heath's recent transition from Encompass, where he was a marketing rep, agency ambassador, whatever, to being full-time on the Insurance Town podcast, what that meant, when he realized he was ready to make that transition, how he made that transition, and where he sees the Insurance Town podcast goes.
We talk a little bit about the industry in general and ultimately want to know what the future looks like for Heath. And it's just an awesome, awesome conversation.
Couldn't believe, like with Brett Fulmer a couple of episodes ago, I couldn't believe I hadn't had Heath on the show yet. And I was excited to share him with you.
If you don't know who Heath is, if you do already, you're going to enjoy this. And if you're not subscribed to the Insurance Town podcast, I think it's a great add to your iTunes or Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.
The Insurance Town podcast is a great ad. So we'll get to Heath in just a minute.
Before we do, I want to give a big shout out to our sponsor, Advisor Evolved, the greatest insurance websites in the history of the world. There is no other option.
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And that's in large part thanks to Chris Langell and the work that the fine people at Advisor Evolved do. So I want to give a big shout out to them.
Also want to give a shout out to Mick Hunt and Premier Strategy Box. I know I always give Mick shout outs, but I just think the world of Mick and think the world of what him and his people do.
And if you need kind of managed, if you need one of your teams managed, if you need your producers trained, if you need your agency Zoom or your automation tool set up with high-quality emails and kind of automations and follow-ups and all that kind of stuff that matches your language.

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What's up, man? Man, I'm just chilling. Yeah, yeah.
I've been recording all day, so. Yeah, you said today's your batch day.
What does that mean? Oh, I recorded four today. And so it's just been a morning full of recordings.
It's been good. That's the best way to do it.
You know, before Rogue, that's how I tried to do it. I would actually do batch weeks.
I would basically try to get like four to six recordings in over the course of one week and then take a couple weeks off. Just to kind of clear my mind and all that.
And plus, it're kind of, once you get in that podcast mode, you're questioning, you kind of get in that question mode. Um, but yeah, that that's the best way to do it sporadically.
Like right now I'm doing one or two a week. So I'm only ever one or two weeks ahead.
There's a lot of pressure on that. Yeah.
That's how I started off the first year. And then now I'm trying to get like 12 weeks out so I can enjoy the summer and not have that pressure but again I worry about having dated material sometime but that's all right I'm still learning this game I'm not a pro like Ryan Hanley but I'm getting there bro I'm getting there don't take anything I do as pro I look at like Cass or Carruthers or Flowers and Scott Howell or Caitlin.
Look, they're all so much more pro than me. I'm the least pro of the whole group.
Yeah, but you've been doing it longer than everybody else. So yes, but I also do it mostly because I like talking to people, not because I want to have a podcast.

Truthfully, you know, I record these because people find them interesting.

I have more conversations like this off air

than I do on air.

I just like talking to people

and learning about what they're doing.

And then I just record these

because people seem to like them.

But if people stop liking them,

I would still have conversation. Right? No, I'm with you.
I'm the same way, bro. I'm the same way.
Yeah. Well, I mean, that's, that's how you and I met.
I mean, you just randomly called me one day on the phone, I think from wherever the heck you were in Arkansas. And, and I think you were like, dude, you know, I've been listening to this agency nation.
Yeah. I this agency podcast and you don't even know I'm from Arkansas.
And you're with Encompass at the time, I think. And then we just we chatted for like an hour, I think.
You know, we just were chatting and had a good, great conversation. And then, you know, you know, been buddies ever since.
So I'm surprised it is the first time you're on the show. I was thinking about it the other day.
I just did this with Broker Brett. So Broker Brett's coming out the week before you.
Dude, we did it again. I just reported Broker Brett.
He's coming out tomorrow. You son of a bitch.
Dude, you always beat me. Mine's coming out Thursday.
I'm emailing Cass's people right now, telling them to get it out now. Get it out right now.
Great minds think alike, bro. Yo, Broker Brett's cool, though.
He's ADHD like a son of a gun, though. He's all over the map.
We had a good conversation. Yeah, I enjoyed that.
And it was the same kind of deal. I've known him for three or four years now and communicated with him a lot.
We've had calls. I've actually been on the podcast that he used to do with Nick Lamparelli for insurance nerds.
I've been on that show and talked to them. And, and I was like, you know, I, I think people, there's definitely a general misconception that I take this podcast more serious than I do because I just like saw him.
I was like, man, when's the last time I had Brett on the show? And I said, well, holy crap, I've never had Brett on the show. So then I sent him a message.
You know what? I think I actually DMed him on Twitter, which is weird. Um, Adam Sheridan is the only other human that DMs me on Twitter.
And, uh, and that's like our special space. So Adam, I'm not calling you out, bro.
Keep doing it. And that does not give any of you other people who are listening license to DM me on Twitter.
But I, I DM them on Twitter and I was like, yo, dude, you got to come on the show. Like I can't believe you haven't been on.
So that's funny that, so everyone listening, the inside joke is, you know, without planning, Heath and I are constantly stealing each other's guess so yeah dude and i try to get guests that nobody else has on and then sure enough hayley will have them or i'll have them right before you it's just funny uh and that's part of the game i guess with the uh the podcast deal i guess but uh because everybody makes their circuits and it makes their rounds yeah and you beat me to mick hunt too you had him on your show and i had him like several i guess a year later but either way uh that dude's amazing that dude makes the best makes the best mick hunt from my strategy box or a premier strategy box but go to my strategy box dot com my strategy box dot com go to my strategy box dot com a future sponsor of the ryan hanley No, current sponsor. Oh, is he? Okay.
My bad. Yeah.
Hey, there's no, no one better in the, in the agency management consulting game. And obviously there's a lot more than that, but what I've always been impressed with about Mick and you know, I want to talk about you too, obviously, but what I think, what I love about Mick is I actually met Mick at Billy Williams' event in Florida in February of 2020.
So this is like a month before the zombie apocalypse. We're down, maybe it was January.
It doesn't matter. We were down in Texas at Billy's thing and there's this dude sitting behind me and he's, you know, talking every once in a while and he's saying some shit.
And I'm like, I really like what this dude is saying. Like he's saying some stuff.
And I'm like, I'm like nodding my head. I'm like, wow, this dude sounds really smart.
So finally, one place turned around. I'm like, who are you? Like, how do I not know? Like the stuff you're saying is so on point.
Like in the way he was saying it was so authoritative. I was like, how do I I not know who this person is so then we started rapping and we ended up going to lunch both days together and and now uh you know now he just busts my balls about the bills all the time but um but yeah his he's they're locked in over there that's they got a lot of they're producing a lot of winners let's put it that way dude that that's how the best relationships happen is who the hell are you and why don't I know you that's how most of my relationships start I I think that's a general um miss by by a lot of people and myself early in my career so I don't want to pretend like I somehow came out with this understanding um you know just in general I feel like we don't randomly reach out to people enough like we just don't like you you know and i'm not talking about just blowing up somebody's email with 10 million requests that's not what i'm saying i'm saying you see someone who's doing something or saying something or engaged in something and you are genuinely intrigued or feel like you can add value, that's the best way to reach out.
Man, those random touches, even if in the moment the person doesn't lock in, you know, they're like, you know, because a lot of times everybody, you know, you, me, everybody, it's got 10 million things going on. Maybe that moment you can't completely go down the path, but you definitely take a mental note.
I mean, you know, it was really cool that person to reach out or geez, that resource they sent me that was cool. And then maybe a month, maybe a year, whatever later, you come back to them and you go deeper.
No, I 100% agree. And that's the way I've built most of my relationships in this industry for the last 20 years is just reaching out to people.
And one of the things that I think I do that a lot of people don't do is, you know, when I hear a guest on your show or on whoever's show, you mentioned a whole host of shows earlier, I'll pick up on and call them. If they leave their contact information anywhere in the show, I'll just be like, dude, I enjoyed hearing you on the Hanley show.
I enjoyed hearing you on whatever show.

People want that.

They go on these shows for that.

And some people don't do that.

And so I try to encourage people after my shows, like, Hey, reach out to this guy, talk to him because he's got a lot to say. He came on the show for a reason.
Yeah. You know, and I think that's really cool.
And that's how, again, how I got to know you, uh, you left your contact somewhere and maybe you slipped your cell phone out there. And I was like, dude, I'm calling him.
And so, you know, and again, we've become friends since then.

Now we text every week or we talk as much as we can. So, and I appreciate that.

Yeah, no, it's good, man. And the other thing too, I think about the podcasting thing,

and we've talked a lot about this because behind the scenes and for you listeners,

you may not realize this. There's no reason that you would, but a lot of the podcasters in our space, we talk to each other.
We actually got a Facebook group chat thing where most of the time we just make fun of cast, but occasionally we do share information. And my point in saying that to you is that I think it's not combative, like, I bust chops about, you know, about Carruthers and Flowers and Howell.
And you know, we're always kind of like, it's like a friendly competition to a certain extent. But at the same time, it's, at least for me, and I know, I know that you share this value as well.
So I'm going to speak for you. I think it's really about just our industry growing, being more connected.
And that's why I never care if you or anybody either comes out with a guest right before or right after that's the same. because you're going to talk to somebody a completely different way.
Like you're going to ask them different questions.

You're going to go down different paths.

You're going to be to somebody a completely different way. Like you're going to ask them different questions.
You're going to go down different paths. You're going to be interested in different things that I'm going to be interested in.
And I have my own philosophy on how I like to talk to people. You have your own philosophy.
Scott and Bradley do their own thing. Cass is a different way.
Corolla is a different way. You know, Caitlin, you know, all the different podcasts, they all have different ways.
And I think when someone does do the circuit, you could say, I feel like it's good to listen to a couple of those because you'll get something a little different from each one. No, I completely agree.
And I like what you said there because a lot of times I'm listening for or talking to them about a totally different avenue because I come from a different background than you do. I come from the South.
You come from the Northeast. I come from second generation.
You don't you come from starting up your agency a year ago. I come from, you know, 20 years on different sides of the fence.
And so my question is going to be different. And I'm not near as intelligent as you are.
Some of the words you say, I have no clue what they they are and I have to google so many of your words you say and so the mayor is not that smart but it's really cool uh I forgot what you said the other day I wrote it down to look it up my wife was like you're an idiot you don't know what that means but it was a really good word I appreciate it um but yeah I read too much as a kid I I was I'm secretly very dorky and I like reading books. It's not that secret.
I'm playing. So, you know, well, yeah.
So not so secretly dorky. And, and I don't even know my wife makes fun of me all the time.
She's like, why do you talk like that? And I'm like, I don't even know that I'm saying these things. And half the time, I don't even know if I'm using the words right.
I just like read it one time and it sounded good. So I don't even know where it comes from.
I'm sure if someone did like a fact check on my podcast, it would be like all falses or whatever the thing is. That would get crushed in a fact check, I'm sure.
By the way, this will probably be edited out maybe, like, you know, it would be, it was, that would get crushed in a fact check. I'm sure.
Oh, by the way, this is probably should be edited out maybe, but do you know that the most word used on your podcast is probably serendipitous? Yeah, it could, you know, I agree with you. I don't, well, you know, I think that especially recently, so I will, I will give that to you recently for sure.
And I, and I think the reason is, um, where I'm at in life and in business, uh, I'm very grateful for this particular moment. And you know, how, um, you know, how a cliche, and I don't know that I'll phrase it properly, but it's kind of, you know, essentially is like, you never know when you're there until it's over.
I feel like I'm living a moment in my life when I actually am aware how happy, how grateful, content, how much love, respect, how much challenge, like I'm living in a moment right now where I feel, you know, and I'm not saying everything's perfect. Don't get me wrong.
It's not like I haven't paid myself in 15 months, you know, like, you know, there's a lot of things that aren't perfect, but I, I have my, my relationship with my wife, my friends, the people I talk to, my kids are amazing, seven and five. My older son

is super into baseball, which is like my dream. You know, I love baseball.
So like I'm in this

moment and I'm, I don't know how I got here. And I have no other word to describe it other than

serendipity. I just, I don't have a way to say, like, I didn't plan to be here,

but I found myself in this moment. I wake up every day.
I'm happy. I'm excited, challenged.
I have love. And I don't know how else to describe it.
So I think that's probably what it is. It's perfect.
I think that's another reason why it's a great time for you and I to talk because I'm in that same boat for, you know, a good majority of my career. I couldn't say that I was at that place in my life where I was, you know, satisfied.
I feel like right now I've hit the lottery in my career. Yeah.
And it couldn't be, you know, again, like you said, it's not perfect, but it couldn't be any better to be able to get in a place in my life where I quit the company job to go full time into insurance town is a lot for me. And it's, it's exciting for me and it's, it's a happy time for me.
So the serendipity thing, you know, I saved the buster chops, but at the same time I resonate with that. And that's what makes you so relatable, at least to me.
And I'm sure the gazillion listeners you've got out there, because it's just refreshing, especially in our industry, when it's full of negativity and full of, you know, naysayers and whatnot, and to have someone that's, you know, positive and positive sends that vibe. It's super cool.
So I'm excited for you. I'm proud of you.
And I'm happy to hear that things are up for you. Well, thank you very much.
And I want to really get into, I want to get into the psychology of making that transfer in a second. I do, I want to just piggyback real quick before we get there

off of what you just said about the negativity. And, and, you know, I, I had a, I had a moment on Twitter today, actually, in recording this, where I, I saw a tweet from someone who works in the insure tech space for a platform that specifically services agents.
And this particular individual continues, in my opinion, to post inflammatory comments that while I'm assuming the point is to be provocative and to create conversation comes off as very negative and comes off as, um, um, it just feels very like 2016, you know, every, you know, agents are idiots and incapable of doing this and they won't do this and they can't do this and mama, mama I just like you know I hate I just can't help myself like the the Irish like fiery crazy person that lives inside of me comes out and I'm just like you know I'm back and then you know there's all these you know there's all this commentary and like I basically you you you you said negativity I just in general in our industry, and we'll never get there and people aren't perfect. And neither am I.
And I do this and we all do this, but I do hope that, you know, I learned a lot of lessons at Agency Nation. I was at different times.
I was part of the problem. I will admit that I think in 2017, 2018, I started, I got over it, but certainly in 2015, 2016, when the insurtech revolution was first started, I was part of the problem.
I think I really wish we could get to a place where we stopped blaming each other, right? Like I was going back and forth with Nick Ayers on this, which was a very productive part of this Twitter exchange,

because as much as I don't always agree with everything Nick says, I do think the way he

thinks about things I really appreciate. We were going back and forth, and I was like, man,

there's no perfect agent. There's no perfect carrier.
There's no perfect association.

There's no perfect tech vendor. Can we cut each other just a little bit of slack? Like maybe if no one is adopting your technology platform, it's not because agents are stupid.
It's because you haven't actually solved a real problem. Like you've solved a problem that you perceive, but you know, I know a lot of agents who aren't heavy tech that make a lot of money.
So why are you saying that they can't or won't? They've obviously figured something out. Maybe just your solution is right for them.
And I, and it goes the other way too. Agents need to stop holding insurance technology vendors to such a high bar because man, there's a lot of legacy crap that goes on.
And, and it's, it is impossible to just walk in and be a, a, an end all solution for people. So I just wish we could all just mellow and understand that agents are part of the game.
Tech is part of the game. Carriers are part of the game.
Associations are part of the game. And the more we can can work together uh man we we rise a lot faster and and it's never gonna be perfect but um that's a little kumbayash but uh that's kind of the mood that i'm in no it's it's it's right on because that's a huge problem that i have and i see in our industry and it's easy to get sucked into those twitter battles or those fights on the the groups the chats and the whatever else, because we are passionate people.
I know I'm speaking for you and I, and most of our industry, if we're doing something, you know, it's a passion that's coming out. And, you know, I think about, you know, a quote, I think it's Simon Sinek who says, you know, if you're working hard for something you don't care about, it's called stress.
But if you're working for something that you're you care about, you believe in, it's called passion. Yeah.
And I think that you and I, you know, in a lot of our industry, including Nick Ayers, we're passionate about what we believe in. And so that passion comes out.
It does come across negative a lot. And so I'm hoping that, you know, just by a little somethings that we do, maybe even this podcast can help inspire at least one person to be positive today.
Who knows? Yeah. Yeah.
Nick wasn't the guy that I initially bucked at, by the way, just in case anyone's worrying. Or wondering.
Right. I have an enormous amount of respect for Nick for a lot of reasons.
So, dude. Okay.
So we've chit-chatted about a lot of nonsensical and out of context things, which I'm sure the audience is very familiar with, but I am super interested in, and one of the, one of the reasons that I wanted to have you on the show is I'm, I want to, I want to learn more about your decision. First, I'd like anyone who is unaware of maybe just a little bit of your history, just, just give us the quick backstory.
But then I want to get into the decision to go full podcast, you know, full insurance town. Like that couldn't have been easy.
Maybe it was easy. I don't know.
But maybe give us the quick backstory. And then let's, I want to start to talk about that because it's such a bold move and I'm so happy for you.
And I just want to learn more about, you know, the mentality behind it. Okay.
So the quick story, you know, just, you know, for people that don't know who I am, I come from, you know, 20 years experience in this business, second generation, and I've always been, you know, either carrier side, agency side, but my biggest footprint, I feel like in this industry has been on the association side. You and I share that.
Other side of the fence, I was a real big PIA guy. My wife runs the PIA of Arkansas.
My father actually works for the Big I in Arkansas. And so I've always been heavily involved in associations.
And I got put on some national councils and boards and things like that. And I would travel all over the country and get to go to different events, similar to you, whether I was speaking or attending.
And, you know, one of those events I went to, gosh, seven, eight years ago. Again, a fact check is probably wrong, but however many years ago.
And when I got to the event, my name badge, you know, had, you know, they always say your name and your company. Well, this one said the mayor on the name tag.
And it had, you know i was working for underneath it and i was like this is not my name tag what is this all about and i think i was in like missouri somewhere and so i was out of my element a little bit out of my state anyway and they're like no we changed your name tag to the mayor because we've had at least six or seven people today come up and say well where's he you know where's he's here and where's? Where's he going to be? Where's his booth or where he's going to be speaking or what, you know, roundtable discussions he had. And so it was flattering for me because I was just a redneck from Arkansas and for them to call me the mayor, it was a super cool thing.
And so when the pandemic hit, you know, fast forwarding, the pandemic hit, I'd always had this dream. I think I talked to you about it a year and a half or two ago about starting a podcast and I never did do it.
I sat on my thumbs and just said, I'm not going to do it. Uh, I don't have enough to say, or I'd have all these self doubts and whatnot.
And finally pandemic hit and February or March, I mean, and my wife was like, you have no excuse. It's time to do it.
And I had good friends of mine, you know, that would push me into that direction. And it was like, you got to do it.
You got to do it. And so I finally just, you know, said, okay.
And you know, your friend in mind, Sid Rowe was one of the biggest proponents for me to do it. She goes, I'll be your first guest.
And that'll give you some credibility right off the bat, you know, having Sid Rowe, the wonderful person that she is come on. To this day, she's like a sister to me.
And she flipped the script on me my first episode and started interviewing me which i thought was interesting and um you know from there you know the podcast just it's grown little by little to a point to where i started getting my first sponsor you know you know about three months in and i thought it would take me forever. I talked to, you know, Bradley Flowers, you, some other people early on, I was like, what are my numbers supposed to be? Where am I supposed to be at? And I kept checking the numbers.
Like every 10 minutes, I'd refresh my numbers like most early podcasters do. And, you know, Bradley gave me the best advice at one point and said, don't look for a year.
Don't even look at your numbers, which is impossible for a podcaster, but don't look, especially a new one. And I kept looking and finally I just turned it off and didn't look anymore.
And about three months in, I had my first sponsor come in with Canopy Connect. And then from there, and I think you've actually hooked up with him, but then, you know, after that, you know, I had another sponsor come on and then I landed a really large sponsor at the end of 2020.
And, you know, got to the point where I was like, holy crap, I can actually do this. And it affords me the opportunity to do what I enjoy.
And that's talking to people, as we talked about earlier, and I enjoy through doing this, you probably get the same thing most people do. I get agents that call me every week or carrier reps that call me every week and like, Hey, I heard this on the show.
What do you think about this? Or I want you to come speak on this panel, or I want you to, your ideas on this or that. You know, I was like, I really am building authority here that I did not dream that I had.
And again, it just started snowballing into a place where, you know, my wife and I prayed about it and we thought about it a lot. And, you know, and I guess March of this year, I decided I'm out, you know, I'm leaving Encompass, Allstate, no bad ill will towards them.
It's just something I wanted to do. And I had a dream and a passion to do this.
And I have a real, you know, ministry mindset as it is. And so I look at this as a way, you know, for this to be a ministry for me to be a calling for me, so to speak.
And, you know, it's probably more than you want it, but it's exactly what led me to where I'm at today to jump out on my own. I think got my LLC and everything started in April and I'm just full-time in insurance town now.
It's awesome, man. I'm so happy for you.
I mean, I still remember the conversation that we had. You were driving from Arkansas to some other state that I, you know, I couldn't point out in a map.
And, you know, I just, you know, you're doing, you're going some meeting to another agency or wherever you're going. And, you know, you, we were just talking about your ideas.
And do you think, you know, I remember you talking about, you know, who, who should I interview and how do I get interviews? And I was like, dude, just freaking do it. Like, just do it.
And if you do it, what's going to happen is people are going to listen. You know what I mean? Like that's, that's what happens.
Like the crazy part is that people start listening and, you know, it just, it, and I completely agree with not looking at your numbers because I got honest to goodness. I couldn't tell you how many downloads I have.
I know approximately it goes up a little bit. It goes down a little bit, you know, um, you know, when, when Carruthers and Cass and flowers started talking, started talking shit, I had to put them back in their place, you know, which is fine.
You know, everyone forgets that, you know, I've been here for a while. So, you know, I think what's amazing is that you stuck with it.
And I don't mean that like you stuck with it, like you were incapable, just it is so difficult early on when you launch those first half dozen, dozen podcasts and it feels like no one's listening. You know, you see a hundred downloads and you're like, oh my God, I put this much energy and effort and passion into something and freaking a hundred people listened.
And I just say, man, what if you made those hundred people's day? What if those hundred people, you just change the way they think about whatever it was you're talking about, man, that's worth it. You know, you think about, and you've probably been there too.
I've been in rooms where I've been speaking to a crowd and it's, you know, maybe 30 or 40 people in the room and you're giving your keynote and you're doing your talk or whatever. And you think about that same scenario, let's go back to that hundred number you threw out.
I'm in front of a hundred people every week, you know, whether I'm interviewing somebody or talking from my own mic or whatever, it's just cool to know that every week I'm in front of, you know, now more than a hundred, but you know, it's cool to know that those people. So if you're thinking about starting your own podcast or whatever industry that is,

it doesn't matter those numbers.

Because again, if 10 people out of that 100 people

got something out of it and bettered their career

or changed something in their industry,

you've changed those people.

And I've gotten those emails.

I know you have too to say,

man, if I wouldn't listen to your podcast,

I would have never adopted this or never done that.

And it's changed the way I do business.

What's up guys? Sorry to take you away from the episode, but as you know, we do not run ads on this show in an exchange for that. I need your help.
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All right, I'm out of here. Peace.
Let's get back to the episode. Yeah.
Yeah. I, you know, the podcast for me, you know, I don't really write that much anymore.
I don't do the videos to the industry anymore. Obviously that's not my job.
You know, but the only thing that I wouldn't give up is this show. You know, I just, I would do it if I had zero sponsors, you know what I mean? I mean, I have some sponsors.
I don't push the sponsors really hard. I have a few companies that help me pay the bills and really is my only personal income.
And it's not that much relatively speaking. I don't work the sponsors as hard as Carruthers does or Cast does or Flowers do or probably even you do.
And probably to my own detriment, but at the same time, I don't, you know, I think we all approach this for different reasons. And I, and I don't think anyone is right or wrong.
I don't think who you interview is right or wrong. I think that's the beauty of this particular genre of communication is that it can be whatever you want it to be.
You know, like I have another podcast that I do, which is a lot, which is Capital Region Business Podcast, right? It's a local podcast for the Albany area. Man, there are days and I don't want to do it.
But I've started to get introduced and people have started to reach out in my local region. I didn't even know who they were.
And I'm learning their stories and their stories are awesome. There was a guy who won.
I didn't even know this. His gym is probably 10 minutes from where I'm sitting.
He built this physical apparatus called the focus master. It's like a boxing martial arts thing.
Then you, it's like, um, you know, when you see like in Creed and they're like pop, pop, pop, pop, pop with the bags and the guy's doing the bags with his hands, it's like that, except you can do it by yourself. So it's pretty cool.
Well, he won this dude, one sweat ink with Jillian Michaels, like national TV reality show was in LA for eight weeks filming this thing and like kept making the cut and making the cut and made it to the final round and ultimately won. I mean, I had no idea.
You know what I mean? We had to interview him and tell a story. And now, you know, he emailed me the other day and was like, hey, you know, I got a few new members because of that.
And I'm like, this is why we tell people stories. Like, this is why you show them you do the work.
You're exactly right. And that was one of the things for me when I started my podcast.
And again, the mayor thing was kitschy and cute, but I love the whole small town feel thing. And I love the whole, you know, the community looking out for each other.
And, you know, I love the idea of connecting others, enhancing one's day any way that I can. And so for me, the insurance town is as cliche or as niche or kitschy or whatever, you know, small town thing it is.
For me, it fit my personality perfectly because, you know, that's what we do. And as you have in your own agency, you know, now you see and how important that is.
You always did. But even more now to get involved in your community, get involved in things and do things like that.
And so for me, that's what I want to do for our industry and connect people and to have people, you know, you know, going back to my very first sponsor, when they first called me, we're like, hey, I had 12 new people sign up from listening to your show. I was like, holy crap, you know, that's what I'm doing this for.
And, you know, when I get other people that come on, other, you know, sponsors that I won't, you know, bug your show with my sponsor names. But, you know, when they start calling me, hey, I got a new sponsor.
I got new this. I got new customers.
Or like I said, those emails you get of, hey, I adopted something new because of what Hanley said on your show or because of whatever said on your show. It's it makes it all worth it, man.
And it makes it so much, I guess it makes you feel good about what I'm doing. I'm finally doing something.
I've always had a passion for the industry, but people do what I love and do what I enjoy. And that's running this yapper of mine.
It's just fun, man. And if I can give back to someone's day every day, it's just fantastic.
Yeah. The other thing, see, I, I, I, I mean, I know you're calling it kitschy, but I hope no one takes that as, as, as anything other than I, I think what, I think it is awesome the way that you're presenting it because.
are it's probably the reason why i've become you know not not just since i started the agency but

just over the last few years going to bold penguin and then leaving the industry for a time. And then coming back into the agency, like, you know, moving from agency nation to bold penguin, not that there was anything wrong with bold penguin.
I just became slightly more detached from the industry. They didn't really, at the time we're not selling to agencies.
It was more carrier related. And I became a little more detached.
And then when I went to the fitness industry, obviously I tried to stay up with what was going on, but I became very detached. And then when I came back, what was amazing to me, and I feel such an obligation to continue to add value back to the industry because when I, as soon as I got canned and I was like, you know, my first thought was I'm going back to insurance.
There's no doubt. And as soon as I kind of announced that I was coming back to insurance, it was like I had never left.
You know, in terms of the friendships and the partnerships and the connections, it was like, it was like I had always been there. And I'll always be forever thankful for that, because I don't know that the industry realizes, nor do I do they need to.
But for me personally, it was incredibly meaningful, like, as meaningful as anything professionally in my life that it was kind of like, Oh, okay, come on back in. You know what I mean? Not, you know, the prodigal son has returned.
Well, I don't know about all that. You know, I just, I just mean like, you know, it was just nice that you could just call people and it was like, Oh, Hey, you know, you know, whatever.
Here's what you missed. Like, let's get back to work.
And I think what I like about your show is you reinforce the sense of connection that agencies and agents have to each other. Producer to producer, agency owner to agency owner, you know, account manager to account manager.
And then across all those chains, there's such a bond, even in quote unquote competitors that I don't know, unless you're in it, you understand. And I think it needs to be nurtured.
And I think you're doing a really good job of it, man. I really appreciate that.
One of the biggest compliments I ever got, and I tried to stay humble, but you know, a compliment that I've hung on to forever when I was working at a company called EMC, uh, my boss back then, you know, he called me a lot of bad names, but he told me, um, yeah, you know, no one that he's ever met understood the industry better than I did. And, you know, it meant a lot to me because, you know, I may not be the smartest insurance guy.
I don't know big words like Ryan Hanley, but you know, but I do in that Southern humility thing to me. And I've spent too much time in the South to fall for it.
So, no, but honestly, though, I never felt like, you know, I knew coverages like the back of my hand, or I never understood the latest and greatest marketing tools. But I knew the industry, I knew how the industry worked.
And I knew that, you know, this industry, more than anything else, is one big, great community.

And it is a way that we can connect to one another. And relationships have always meant a lot to me.
From going back 20 years ago, I still have friends of mine. And what's even funnier is when I first started calling on agents 18 years ago, I had agents I would call on that changed my diapers at conventions when my dad was an agent.
And so it's just really cool to know that, you know, I had that kind of relationship going that far back and I could still call on those people today and they're still friends, whether they're in Mississippi, Arkansas, New York, or Utah, it doesn't matter. Yeah.
It's cool how we're all connected together. And then even further, when I got into podcasting and I hate this term, but when people, you know, you become insurance famous or whatever the hell it is, you know, it's one of those things that it opened up so many more doors for me.
And when I got invited to be a part of the Facebook groups that, you know, as you talked about earlier, or I've having phone calls with Ryan Hanley or Carruthers or Cass or people that I've looked up to in the industry and become really close friends with different people that I never thought I would. And it's really cool when people call me and say, hey, I'd like to be on your show.
That's a humbling and a very cool thing to be a part of. And it just shows, I mean, I'm absolutely in love with this industry.
Obviously, my, you know, God family. But then this industry is just, you know, a love of mine that I'll never'll never forget so i'm cool it's cool to hear you say the same thing that when you left and came back it was you know one of those welcome with open arms type of deal uh and i you know i was one of those people that for a year or so when you were gone i was like dude this is not the same you know i looked for your videos and i looked for your voice and you know i've been a fan boy of Ryan Hanley's for a while.
And so it was cool to have you come back. And I was one of those that couldn't wait to hear you back in on the airwaves.
Well, thank you. Um, I do miss, I do miss doing the videos with all the camera tricks and stuff.
I will say, I mean, I'm never probably gonna ever do those again, but that, um, I go back, you know, it's funny and go back and watch those sometimes, you know, I don't go back like and search for them. I'll see them pop up like, you know, on YouTube, when you're scrolling through stuff, and all of a sudden, boom, it'll show you one of the guy, you know, I'll watch this.
And I because I forget, you know, I forget, did a lot of those, I think my last one was like 55. And then I tried to do 56 on my own.
And my former employer at the time asked me to stop doing that. So, so that's when the videos kind of came to, I think I had to give them a different name.
I think I moved it from the show to the Ryan Hanley show. That way I wasn't breaking any trademark infringements though.
But I don't want, I I've, it's all water under the bridge actually, uh, have, have redeveloped a good, a good solid relationship with our friends at trusted choice.com these days, which I'm, which I'm happy about. That's a very good thing.
So, um, yeah, it is a good thing. You know, what's, you know, it's funny.
This is off topic, but, um, um, do you ever see the movie, uh king the the latest king arthur guy richie's king arthur really cool movie with charlie hunnam yeah yeah the bad badass badass king arthur sons of anarchy guy yes a hundred percent yes that one i can't remember the subtitle but that king arthur so in that, he says something that I don't know why this quote has always stuck with me, but it has, and it's actually like worked into my real life. And I would file, you know, my new, my, my, my, the reflaming of my relationship with, you know, Chip and everyone over at trustedchoice.com.
Um, from this is he says in that movie he says it's better to have friends than enemies right he says it like three or four times like in different situations where like someone who was of a different nature would have like beat the guy up or fought him or something right he's like he like lets him off the hook and kind of brings him you know brings him brings him in and friends. But he does it with the Viking.
He does it with the guy that was trying to sell the shirts or whatever. I can't remember the whole plot.
Go watch the movie. But, but, but that's stuck with me since I saw that.
And I've always, I've tried to be, I'm going to say I always win, but I've tried to hold grudges and say to myself, like it is better have friends than enemies like that is a better thing like and and maybe maybe it's why i've been a little touchier um on the socials when people start blaming each other for stuff yeah it's because you know that doesn't get anybody anywhere you know what i mean we don't we don't move forward. That's the truth, I guess, is, is in the, this is kind of where I want to take the remainder of our conversation is from my, you know, being that you have a podcast now and you've been doing it for a while.
One of the beauties of the podcast is that you get to talk to examine, get the perspective of a lot of different people from a lot of different places in the industry and I feel as strongly as ever that we have to keep moving forward together that rhyme was unintentional um and I you know I don't I don't know I I just I don't think we can do it alone anymore my thing. That's why I actually had a, Billy Vandura was kind of bashing aggregators and stuff, which I get where he's coming from.
That's not a knock on Billy. But I said to him, like, you've never seen Indium then.
Like, you've never maybe spent any time with CLI and what they're doing. Or smart choice.
Canyon lands. What? I said, or smart choice.
Yeah, smart choice. There are networks and aggregators out there.
Or even Goosehead. Goosehead agents.
Billy Wagner is an enormous proponent of Brightway and the things they're doing. Yes, can aggregators be a negative? Maybe.
But man, done right, they can really be a productive place. And I don't see startup agencies.
I'm blessed that I have this show I've been able to get. I've leveraged this notoriety to get appointments unequivocally.
You my, my business plan and my performance and COVID do not necessarily justify, you know, some of the appointments that I have. I'm aware of that.
Like I'll make good on it down the road, but it certainly doesn't justify it at face value. So if you don't have this platform and you try to go out on employment, it'd be effing impossible.
So I, I don't, if we want fresh blood in the space, then we need aggregators. So that's why I said to him, you know, take a look at Indium.
And you know what he did? He called Indium. And then he tweeted me back and said, I was wrong.
They're different. And there are others.
I'm not just, I use Indium. That's why they're not a sponsor or anything.
I just, I love Chad. Well, I love Chad Eddie too.
He's a good friend of mine. But so on that note, and this is a soapbox I probably stand on too often, but, and I say this a lot on my show probably, but, you know, if you look back 10 years ago, let's say the talk around the industry was the small independent agents are going to go away.
They're going to be bought up and mergers and acquisitions. And, you know, you're never going to have it.
If you're longer, if you're smaller than 5 million in premium, you're not going to make it, or whatever that arbitrary number was. That's a total different shift now.
You fast forward to 2020, 2021, I think that it's a different shift now to where the ones that are going to be making it, or the ones that are going to be still around 10 years from now, are the small mom-and-pop shops that can pivot you know, change directions quickly. They can adopt technology quicker.
You know, they're more nimble. And I'm proud of that.
And a lot of that, you know, I'm going to different both than you because I feel like aggregators are a big part of that. Gooseheads are a big part of that.
The people like that are a big part of that instead of the big bank owned giant behemoth agencies. Now we're those you know to throw out my sponsor smart choice they'll help those little guys that are startups

and they're going to be the ones that are thriving yeah and and i love that about industry going back

to the community aspect and we need each other and you know another shout out whether you like

them or not is you know the dj and them over at uh iowa and the way they've connected people in a

way whether you're a fan or not or whether you think it's this way or that way, they've brought about a community and, you know, same thing that PIA or Big Eye has been doing for years, but they found a way to do it that brought people closer through the social media. Yeah.
I just, you know, IOA has the slogan down perfectly better together, right? That's their slogan. And I think that they're a hundred percent right.
I think they do amazing things. I think that the amazing part about the time period that we are currently living in is you can be a big eye member, an IOA member, a member of smart choice.
You can have two direct appointments. You can, you know, you can have a referral partner and a health benefits company.
You can use, you know, Tarmaca and you can use this other, you know, and, and it's okay because those, that path, that thing, it's like a, it's like, it's like your fingerprint, right? Like I'm getting licensed in Florida and California. I used to go get fingerprinted.
So it's like your fingerprint. Like the groups you choose to operate in, the technology you choose to use, the systems, right? I've been working with Matt Namoli and Chris Paradiso on EOS.
I want to implement EOS in Rogue where we haven't started it yet, but I've been talking about them and, you know, they they're huge believers in it. I know a lot of other agencies, I think when Stromso was on the podcast, he said that he uses it.
And it's it's it's one way to operate an organization or an agency, but it's not the only way. And it may work for you.
It may not work for you. And my point in saying all that is we each get to have this unique thumbprint and we need to support each other as much as possible in building the thumbprint that is right for us.
And your thumbprint is going to be different than my thumbprint. I mean, some places it may look similar, but in other places it's going to look different.
And that has to be okay today, right? Like the idea that PIA New York and, and big eye New York fight each other tooth and nail over the stupidest things is bananas to me. Like I can't even get involved in it.
I, people have asked me my opinion and I'm like, it's, it's all dumb. It's all dumb.
Like that, that these two organizations that are supported, that are supporting agents fight each other, like legitimately fight each other on different things. And the nuance to those differences is bananas.
And I get it. They're both businesses and they're both entrenched.
And to say that one should take over the other, they should merge. Those are implausibilities.
But I do think that this idea of us being very accepting of you're a PI agent, I'm a big big I agent or vice versa or whatever. It just doesn't matter because there's, it's almost impossible for us to be the same.
And if we can accept that and grow together, there's so much information to share and learn. Yeah.
And it goes back to one of the things that my wife and I always say, whether it's big I or PIA or IOA, whatever I always said, I'm going to go somewhere with this, so bear with me a minute, but I always say, you know, whatever you're getting involved in, you're going to get out what you put in. And so if you're one of those that sit on the sideline, you put your head down, you only work in your own agency, you don't get involved in anything else, you're not going to, you know, you're not going to thrive near as well as if you're involved in our industry, whether it's whatever association you decide to get into, you've got to get involved in our community.
You've got to get involved in the industry. You've got to learn people's, you know, what they want to do, how they do things.
Because you may not have ever heard of EOS unless you knew Chris and Matt. Yep.
You know, I may not have ever heard. It's actually true.
I had not heard of EOS until they threw it at me. You know, I would have never heard about half the shit I've heard about, excuse me, half i've heard about until you know i got involved in our industry over the last you know 10 or 15 years and got to know certain things that are going on i've known about podcasts i've never even heard of podcasting until i found your show and other people's shows and so again if you're listening to this and you're not involved in the industry in some way form or, or fashion, or in your community, or in a niche, you know, association, or whatever it is, crawl out from under a rock and get involved, because the only way you're going to better your industry, or your agency for that matter.
Yeah, I think- That is such a soapbox of mine. No, no, I think you're 100% right, and dude, I've said it a million times, there's only one rule on this show.
And it's if you catch a tangent, you got to stay on it. Never cut a story short.
So I think just to kind of surmise or boil down or take a derivative of what you just said is there is no reason to be or to feel alone. If you don't like that feeling, right? Like, if you're the kind of person that just you're the the lone wolf warrior and that's the way you operate, God bless you.
It's America. You can do whatever you want.
If, but if you feel alone and you don't want that feeling, know that you can email me, ryan at roguerist.com. You can email Heath.
I'm not going to throw your email out there unless you want to, but you know, feel free to reach out because there's so many ways to stay connected and meet other people. I have agents that I talked to once a quarter on the other side of the country and we just checking on each other.
How's it going, man? I'm doing great. I hired a producer of this or, Hey, I'm really struggling with my, someone emailed me the other day.
Hey, I'm struggling with the third email in my commercial line sequence. What would you recommend? Right? I mean, I just said, hey, I'll export my email sequence.
I'll send it to you. Use whatever makes sense.
I don't care. So like, you know, those things are so available.
Oh, yeah. 100%.
Don't feel alone. I guess is the point.
If you're listening to this, if you're a producer and you feel like you're on an Island in your agency, you know, don't, there are ways for you to stay connected and get connected regardless of where you sit. If you're an account manager and you're looking to do something different, or you just want to be better at your job, or you want to move up, there are places for you to go.
And, and all it takes is a simple reach out. So never feel alone.
no I I completely agree. And it's Heath at insurancetownpodcast.com.
I would accept those as well. And there's so many people in this industry that have reached out and that have become friends with me over the last, you know, year and a half, even that have changed, you know, the way I look at this industry, even from what I already did, I've always been in love with this industry, but yeah, I love that.
Don't feel alone because I think that we need each other in this industry and we're so much closer now than we ever have been because of, you know, social or because of internet or because of pandemic or whatever. And I find it fascinating to me.
And so, you know, I'm so blessed and I'm in this industry that I'm in this small town of insurance town and I'm a self-elected mayor there and it means a lot to me. And so, yeah, I love where you went with that.
So I appreciate that. So my last question for you, you can interview anybody in the insurance space, right? We're going to put this out into the world.
You can interview anybody in the insurance space right now. You get to pick.
They're going to say yes, regardless.

You just have to say their name. Who is it? Oh, you know, if you were to ask me this,

you know, several months ago, I said Billy Williams, but I had Billy Williams. So if I

want to continue the Southern kiss in your ass, I'd say Ryan Hanley because you haven't been on

my show yet. But man, that's a tough one because I don't know the answer to that.
I'm still trying to learn all the names and the people that I'd want to hear. But if I could have any guests say yes to me outside of our industry or in our industry, I'd have to say Simon Sinek.
I'd love to have them on my show. I'd love to hear what I'd say.
And another person I would love to on my show that would say yes, would have to be John C. Maxwell.
I'm a huge fan of John Maxwell. He's such a great, you know, leader guy and talks about leadership.
And some of my favorite quotes come from that guy. But as far as within our industry, that's a good question.
And I don't have a good answer. So you have to edit this part out because I have no good answer.
No, that's fine. That's all right.
So what Heath needs is good suggestions. So email him, heath at insurancetownpodcast.com.
Good suggestions for interesting people who have things to say in our space. You know, for me, one of the places that I would love to go, I would love to interview more CEOs and leaders inside of carriers.
I find the carrier business to be very, very interesting. I think that they are the punching bag of our space, sometimes warranted, sometimes unwarranted.
And I found carrier people to be very interesting. I just, you know, I think there's a lot more there than you often, I think, than a lot of agents assume.
And I've always enjoyed, some of my favorite interviews have been people inside of carriers. Well, on this note, you know, we'll put this out there because you could probably help me here.
One of the carriers I've never had dealingsings with personally but even in competition with them and hearing from other agents that say what an incredible company they are is cincinnati so if you've got you know a ceo contact with somebody at cincinnati whatever they're doing contact but if anyone from cincinnati is listening uh sean givler would be a great he's that runs all of commercial lines for Cincinnati.

He'd be a great interview. Just recently took that position.

I just hear so many good things about that carrier, especially, you know,

here in Arkansas, they do really well. And I've heard you talk about them.

Another one I would love to talk to be, if we're going to talk CEOs,

it'd be Tyler Asher or Michael Rocco, some of those type people.

Oh, we can, we can make that happen. Just email me offline.
I know both those guys yeah yeah we can get tyler tyler and mike are both awesome dudes um dude for me it would be i would i would love to do an interview with trisha griffith from from progressive yeah i've met her she was on a panel in um in uh at elevate and she did a podcast i did a brief podcast with her a brief thing with her

um for agency nation but for a bunch of different reasons we kind of had to be

a little more i would love to get like a more raw version of her story because like, um, she just seems like, she seems like kind of a bad-ass and super smart. And I also felt that she was very, um, she was very composed.
So like on stage at elevate 2018, um, LaRocco took a shot at her because he, you know, stayed auto. He, you know, in the same thing, he took a pretty gnarly shot at her right on stage in front of 800 people.
Not a physical shot, verbal shot across the bow. And the grace and composure that she kept, if someone had said that about my company, I would have, I would, you know what I mean? I would have, and she, you know, had this great answer and came back and was very composed.
And at the end, I don't think he looked like the winner in that. And it's not a, that's not a knock on Mike, right? He was defending his base and what he was he was trying to do and i think i don't fault him for it i don't know that it was the best venue for what he said but but i don't fault him for saying it only because he he has his territory to protect and he was trying to do that right and and um but i just thought i was very very impressed with her and i would love to be able to do like hour long, a little more raw version and just get more of her story.
I think it would be very interesting. Yeah, that'd be awesome.
I'd also love to find some 80 something, 90 old something man who started in the industry way, way, way back in the day. And they're still somewhat involved just to see that evolution and what it was like back in the 50s or 60s in the industry versus now i i selfless from us i just interviewed with aaron gordon earlier this morning and he was talking about his dad 80 years old still involved in the agency i'd love to get him on with aaron and just talk about what it was like my dad's 77 still slinging insurance i hear his stories but i'd love to hear yeah like those old school stories.
I'd love to go sit in an old insurance nursing home, so to speak, and just talk to a bunch of old heads that have been there and fought in the trenches and done the old school method when we didn't have Google and internet and the old school knocking doors. That would be a cool conversation.
Yeah. This is the last thing I'll say, and then we'll wrap this up.
But my father-in-law, my father-in-law has been, you know, same kind of similar to your dad, a little bit younger, but, but same generation. And you know, he always talks about the, the, the, the books, you know, you, you, you know, you, you take the Liberty mutual book under your own books.
Yeah. And you'd open the book up and you, okay, how old are you? 55.
Okay. And you're this, and you you put this and you add this in there and you're like okay you want uninsured motorist okay okay let's go find that one and what kind of car and and then you come up with this like manual rate right on the spot you have them sign it write a check and then you mail all that to the you're like oh my god you can see why when you think about how it actually had to be done you you know, when you get down to like timing, right? Like some of the weird rules around that seemingly are weird today with like e-sign and e-payments.
You're like, it happens so instantaneously. And you're like, you know, maybe you question why there's so much regulation around, you know, when is a policy officially enforced? What does bound versus issued mean? You know, how many days do you have to rescind an offer and all that kind of stuff? Like not in the not too distant past, you know, you'd sign something, put a check down, have a rate.
And then literally it would be days or weeks before the insurance company would even know that you had a policy, you know, it just wild. When you think about, you know, what it was like not too long ago.
So yeah, it'd be a cool conversation to have that. Yeah.
Yeah. Cool.
All right. Hey, dude.
Awesome. I'm so glad we finally did this.
Yeah. You know, you, you said that I, that I've never been on your show.
Obviously I'm always willing and look forward to the day that you finally allow me to grace your airways and we'll have a fun chat as well. But I appreciate you, dude.
Hey, for anyone listening to this, and I'll say I've said this in the in the in the intro as well. Subscribe to Insurance Town podcast.
If you enjoy this podcast, you're going to love Insurance Town. Heath gets the highest recommendation from me in terms of, you know, you're probably going to start listening to Heath and stop listening to this show.
My numbers are going to go down, which

I'm fine with. So subscribe to Insurance Town Podcast.
I appreciate you, man. We're going

to get out of here. I appreciate it.

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