RHS 102 - Brett Fulmer, on Building the Next Generation of Insurance

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In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home. Hello everyone and welcome back to the show.
Today we have a tremendous episode for you with a tremendous guest, Brett Fulmer, otherwise known as Broker Brett on all the socials. Brett's been around for a long time and I've always enjoyed his approach because he doesn't attack insurance from the traditional standpoint.
He comes at it very much from a more technology or insurtech standpoint, but with a strong appreciation and respect for the traditional agency, the importance of insurance. And I've just always been a fan of the way that he views our industry.
His work in Insurance Nerds, always been fantastic. You've seen him working with a bunch of different insurance tech startups as well as both like a brand ambassador slash advisor and growing his own agency that he's a partner of out in Newport Beach in California.
And this is just an awesome conversation. It's just an awesome conversation.
And frankly, I'll say this. I say it during the episode as well.
But when I realized that I hadn't had Brett on the show yet, I was like, oh my gosh. I kind of just assumed that I had interviewed him before.
And if I'm being completely candid, my, my, my mental around interviewing people spans the various shows that I'm done, everything from the old content warfare show to agency nation to, you know, all, you know, I think this is the third iteration of a podcast that I've done. Um, I tend to get it kind of jarbled in my head who I've interviewed, who I haven't.

And when I realized that I hadn't actually had him on the show, I was like, oh my gosh,

dude, you got to get on.

So hopefully that gives you an understanding of my appreciation and respect for Brett,

what he's doing and what I think he's capable of in our space.

And I hope that you'll connect with him on LinkedIn, Twitter, great follow, but definitely

get in Brett's ecosystem, make him a connection, highly recommend it. And he'll talk a little bit about how you do that at the end of the show.
So you can also connect with him in all his spots in the show notes of this episode. Go to ryanhanley.com.
That's where all the episodes are. But before we get there, just a quick shout out to a couple sponsors of the show, the people that make this possible, tools and people that I love and respect.
Big shout out to Donna for Agents. Donna is an analytics platform that is changing the game for us.
I mean, really, it's giving us insights into our book of business in a way that wouldn't be possible otherwise. Now, your natural reaction to that should be, Ryan, you're a startup agency.
put your head down, write business, just why are you worried about all these things? Because my agency is not gonna be a small startup business for very long. I'm not taking the traditional path and I'm certainly not gonna grow at the traditional pace.
And for that reason, I wanna make sure that I have the tools in place that mirror, or mirror is the wrong word, that support the core values of what we're doing and

data and not just data to have data but data that I can look at that I can digest and make business

decisions around is one of the core pieces of that's going to separate rogue from everyone else

and that's why I've made the investment and Donna is is a sponsor of this show, but I pay for Donna. It is a tool that I pay for out of our, you know, it's an agency line expense because I believe in it.
That's the whole deal. I believe in this tool.
And I think you should go to, you know, Google Donna for agents, just the people behind the project, the people involved with the project, the agents that are using Donna today. If data is something that is important to you.
Now, if it's not important to you, just disregard this. But if it is, this is a tool you at least want to know about.
It's a tool you at least want to go get the demo for and know about this tool. I promise you, you will not be disappointed.
Donna for Agents, check it out. I just want to give a very quick shout out to Mick Hunt and the team at Premier Strategy Box.
Guys, if you need help with something in your agency, and I'm going to say something as a broad term, connect with Mick, reach out, go to Premier Strategy, mystrategybox.com, mystrategybox.com, go to mystrategybox.com or just Google Premier Strategy Box. Find Mick Hunt.
Find his team. They will help you manage, build sales processes.
Same thing with customer service, customer experience. The team there is incredible.
And if you're looking to next level up, if you as an agency owner are sick of having your hands in every single process that happens in your agency and you want to really put yourself in positions where you can go be your best version of yourself and you need someone to step in and help manage sales flow or help manage service flow, then Mick and his team are the perfect partner. Every agent that I have referred to Mick and the team at Premier Strategy Box has signed up.
Every single agent. 100 for 100.
I don't think I've sent 100 agents, but we're batting 1,000, I can say. So that's how strongly I feel about Mick and the team at Premier Strategy Box.
Okay. Got that out of the way.
I love you guys for listening as always. Let's get on to Brett Fulmer dude what's up another day in the neighborhood you know we're recording already we're coming hot so i can't ask about what we can i can't talk about so we'll just we'll just go for this well we can we can turn it off for a sec if there's some i don't think we should you know i think we just gotta you know the candid live feedback yeah off if you if you want to go super off the record we can just

uh everyone can just earmuff just say earmuffs to everyone and then they can't hear us well not to like fanboy part but what i think is interesting and sorry this will sound better um dude so when i got started i'd already i kind of cheated because i was at a startup around 2014 to 16 data visualization.

Yep.

But I want to say 17 or 18.

I got an office job and it freaked me out because i'd always been outside salesman so i go like walk or jog two or three miles in the morning i listened to the whole agency nation like podcast catalog that's really like if i came in with a head of steam it's like he'd been in sales he'd been around a startup you guys were a little bit more nervous about tech than I was. I was like, and plus I had nothing to lose.
You know what I mean? So you're worried about them coming in. I'm like, dude, tech happens, you know, like usually helpful.
I think the part about the insure tech revolution of 2016 that was the most interesting to me. And I'll say I agree with you.
I think, you know, looking back now on, you know, five years ago, our position and even 2015, a little bit when it really started to get started, there was, I think it was less about the tech and more about the rhetoric. It was more this every insure tech founder of that generation and some of which have changed their tune and changed their narrative it was combative it was disrupt tech yeah it was desperate disrupt disintermediate the this this entire industry is filled full of sluggish idiots who don't understand who can't innovate who can't move who are who i kind of thought that too i thought it's going to come in and have a heyday just outrun people work hard it is hard to move products it's hard to move relationships like yeah yeah and and

you know I'd say in the in the last few years I've been blessed to be an advisor for a couple

different uh startups in in our space and in not even necessarily startup startups but emerging

platforms of all different sizes and probably half dozen or so that some of which I talk about, some I don't. And the number one thing that I say when I get involved with any of those groups, if they don't already understand this, is that understanding how this industry actually works and what we really do for a living is the core of being successful.
I do not care how smart you are, how much money you are, how well connected you are. There are startups right now who look like they could be potential household names that have absolutely, positively no shot of ever reaching profitability.
You know, you come in with a slick front end and 80% reinsurance, you're toast. You have no chance.
I don't care how good your marketing is. The first time we hit a hard market and reinsurance, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're toast.
And, um, and we've seen some of that, you know, and I think, and that's just one small example that's and i'm not talking about anyone you have to start kind of unideal to get that deal but i see what you're saying like unless the math pencils out right you can be in trouble pretty quick you know and i'm not and that's a very shallow broad stroke example and no one is quite so leveraged into reinsurance as that. But the idea is, if you come in, and you're going to bypass some of the traditional models, understand that you're not actually doing anything that is that new.
And what I mean by that is, there have been companies for millennia that have tried to leverage different markets, come in with different backing. I mean, maybe not necessarily using digital or, you know, whatever, the different processes that we have today from a technology standpoint.
But the idea of buying market share by dropping prices and being easier to do business with is not a new, that's not a new idea.

That's actually one of the most recycled ideas that exists.

I think some have done it well, some have haven't.

and the ones that I see, like I look at, um, uh, Kyle, um,

Nakasugi.

Yeah.

I'm sorry, Kyle. I always put your last name, but, um,

I have tremendous respect for the way that he's building clear cover. And I'll tell you from a personal lines perspective, now Rogue is a primarily small commercial, but we have in our roadmap, I want to start adding personal lines.
Well, today, traditional, most carriers from a commercial line standpoint will open up to a more because because we're we're in 20 states now we have customers actually in 27 states and you know in the next six months we'll be fully national if not sooner um probably not alaska and hawaii just because it's just the traffic is so small. There's been zero interest, but say we'll be in all lower 48 states inside of six months, if not earlier.
Okay. So to get an appointment with a traditional carrier in the lower 48 on a national level for commercial lines is not incredibly difficult.
You have a, you've, if you can prove that you understand the product and you have a plan, you know, checkbox, Hey, just send us your license. You're good to go.
But on personal lines, I found, and again, I'm sure someone will email me and say, Ryan, but we, I think I know where you're going. It's way, way different.
It's, we're not appointing anyone in New Jersey. Well, what do you mean? I'm in Pennsylvania and New York with you and have written business.
You wouldn't mean, well, in New Jersey, you know, you got to talk to Tim. Tim's been underwriting new.
It's, it's like this completely different thing. So, okay.
Some of the bureaucratic stuff, completely willing to deal with some of it is just too much of a struggle. So I look to some of the insure tech carry, and I shouldn't say insure tech, this next generation of insurance carriers, clear cover I'd put in this bucket, as better national options for personal lines insurance.
Especially if you're focusing somewhere else. I think InsurTechs can make all of us cross sell more.
There's a friend with a niche commercial expertise. And I was like, no, just go get set up with Hippo and ClearCover.
That'll make that part of your life easy when people are demanding to get a quote for X. Yes.
And that's the way we're going to address it too. I think we will write with very commonly known traditional agencies.
Not that we won't look at some of the insured techs, but pound for pound, I haven't seen them displacing either in ease of business or in quality of product. Any of the insured tech carriers on the commercial line side, I like the people running them and I have no problem with them, but I'll tell you, I I'll take Hartford or Chubb or, you know, even guard gets you to them.
It's, you know, the, the, it's just as easy to quote with Chubb or Hartford as it is to quote with any of the insure techs, the product I think is, is still better by far and the claims and is way better and um so I don't know that you're actually getting a better product yet on the commercial line side but on the personal line side like I look at clear cover and I think clear cover is a is a prime time player I think clear cover's got a real shot of being like I look at hippo as a best in breed personal lines you know i'm doing air course you can't see me sure tech personal lines carrier i think hippo is is kind of done a lot of things really right and uh and i have a lot of respect for them and i think clear cover is the auto equivalent um and i think they did they just have a no it was metro mile that hippo did a, did a partnership with. I'm sure that's because of, because of scope.
But, um, I, I put those like a, like a faux bundle, which I think is a full bundle. Yeah.
I think it's cool. I mean, yeah, that makes sense.
No, I've liked hippo the way. And I'm always way too political for my own good.
I'm, you know, nice little Southern California guy. Um, hippos I'm weeded, you know, 40 things are going on and a realtor reaches out and says, hey, I need a quote.
I need to put a mortgage company on it. Can you turn something around? Boom, HIPAA real quick.
You know, maybe travelers, if I have some more time, a little nicer situation, bundle, umbrella, whatever else. Something more bespoke, high net worth.
You know, we'll go to a different carrier. But yeah, they're great when you're in the weeds and you're weeded and you believe in the product.
Yeah. I've been a clear cover client myself because I like to eat my own dog food.
I bought a jetty renters, use Oscar for health insurance. Like can't be chilling this stuff, but I've actually gotten to the point where I don't even think about as insure tech and insurance anymore.
It's sort of like fit place time and hopefully everyone's using technology well. Yeah.
But I do think you're right though, to look at the reinsurer and the claim side and kind of the full spectrum, you know, of what you're offering. Yeah.
One of my so when in personal lines, and again, this is all what are you willing to tolerate for what exchange right? You know, for what what's the value prop. And I look at in personal lines, if you're primarily third party claims adjust adjusters, independent claims adjusters, and there's that level of disconnect, I feel more comfortable with it.
Personal lines claims adjusting is far more standardized. And you have companies like Snapsheet, which make it very standardized.
And so I feel more comfortable there. but in commercial lines, I still would love to see a large portion of the claims adjusters be familiar or contracted to that carrier.
Nothing against independent claims adjusters if there's any listening. I'm sure there's not a lot.
But I will say that in the situations that I've had, both in this instance of my career and in past, independent claims adjusters are oftentimes, from my perspective, involved in claims that get out of hand. And it's just a lot of times they're overburdened.
It's not even like they're trying to do a bad job. That's not a knock on them as professionals, but a lot of times they get thrown different claims for different lines of business from four different companies.
And now you just, you can't, you're never going to get as good of experience as all I do is adjust this company. And I know the products inside and out.
I know the forms inside now. So that's one of the things I try to look at.
And again, it means more to me on commercial than personal. Yeah, no, it's fair.
And, you know, to be honest, I've been on the sales side a lot. I've had a few personal lines losses.
Luckily, most of them have gone a good direction. You know, I haven't seen it.
You know, I mean, I just my book small books growing. And now it makes sense to me.
The other thing I was gonna say is the DTC is kind of rough. You can can have a third party adjust or whatever else, but you want to have that broker relationship, not to be biased, you know, kind of coach people through it a little bit.
You can be biased on this show. Yeah.
You know, I just think we still have a spot just because, you know, we're emotional beings, you know, we're not totally rational and, you know, the shit hits the fan. You want a relationship, you know, you want somebody who's been there since before the fallout or whatever you're working on and can help you navigate, get back quick.
You know? Yeah. I was talking to an agent buddy of mine today and he said, uh, he said he, he, what he, he was explaining his business model and I'm an enormous fan of it and I don't want to blow up his spot for a couple of different reasons.
So I'm not going to name him, but, um, somebody, I think a lot of listeners in the show would probably know if I said his name. And he was describing his model, which he described as, and now that I'm about to bring it up, I'm going to get it slightly wrong, but you'll get the gist, which was essentially different people, same process, every customer, right? Every customer is going to, their relationship is to the process, not to the person.
And his point was, I want to be flexible with my team, both from a sales and from a service perspective, to know that you're going to call and you don't need to get Brett, right? Because Brett doesn't do car changes as well as John and the service team does car changes, right? The process is, Brett is your problem solver and your program builder. And then once that program is built, sold, and you're with our agency, now John or John and one of his peers, Sally and Tammy and Timmy and Tommy, you know, they handle service and, you know, and the relationship is to the process, to the fact that you know there's someone there and it is a human it may be different people but the process is what you believe in because that's what helps serve you the best and he he he was much better in the way that he explained it so I'm doing disjustice if he if he listens he'll know and he'll probably be laughing because I'm butchering the way he said it.
But that is what we're doing at Rogue. And I hadn't really positioned it that way, but it is a version of the traditional relationship that I believe works very well for higher volume and or more digitally oriented agencies.
And I certainly believe that it is one of the models that sets you up for success in the future. Yeah, no, it's a Adam Smith differentiation of labor and reminds me of like the founder, you know, McDonald's set himself up to be hyper efficient.
Yeah. I'll plug, you know, a little company to help out working with Faneo that's coming to the States from Canada.
They're working on some really cool built-in automation. It's not there yet, but to have recommended good, better, best to have these service policies, but they still believe like the ball's got me in the agent's court.
You know, you're enabling the producer to use tech to better serve the client. So, you know, I definitely see a hybrid future.
Yeah. I don't see us going anywhere.
No, I don't, I don't either. I think, I think the days of the chest thumping, you know, and I always, I give, I give Crothers a hard time for this all the time, but like, you know, he, he, he is training the next generation of these men and women, you know, the chest thumping middle market producers.
I think that, I think they'll still always exist. I don't think that you, I think that that there, I think that middle market commercial is the last bastion of that ideal though, in my opinion.
I think that, you know, you, you, you, I think what a producer is, what an insurance professional is today is going to drastically change. I think for a long time, it's been, when you think insurance professional, you think producer.
And I will tell you one of the issues, and I, you know, Matt, Matt Jagger, who I just hired to our team. Oh, congrats by the way.
Yeah. Thank you.
Thank you. He's, he's been awesome and fits, has fit in amazingly with our team and him and Sarah.
I feel, I feel very blessed. I've, I've been able to bring two people on.
I feel incredibly confident in, and have really, um, and, and Sydney Rowe can attest to this. They've taken to my, uh, more hands-off leadership style very well.
Uh, and, and that's, that's, it's been good. Um, but my point in saying that is in, in, in in that process of, I realized that what I was hiring for and what a traditional producer is seen as are not the same thing.
And that I think the idea of an insurance professional is drastically changing. More technologist, more marketer, you know, like more of a renaissance person than a I sell policies.
You know what I mean? Like, I mean, if that makes sense. No, you're 100% correct.
So when the pandemic hit, I used to do something called broker brews. We do a digital one.
And then I did one with some like leader buddies for insure tech. And then I did one with like young guns.
We do these zooms, right. And since zoom fatigue, so I started messing around the podcast, uh, had fun with it, but was a little all over place, insured some startups last year, not a lot of premium, a lot of work.
And I realized between Faneo and everything else going on, I couldn't really nurture my own pipeline as much as I should. So I doubled down on the auto space with my buddy, who loves it.
You know, he ran a big Marine agency for a number of years, but loves classic autos. And it's been phenomenal helping him build like an auto focus podcast, helping the market, help him cold call a little bit to dealerships, making friends there selling a couple of garages.
But he's passionate about classic cars, the auto industry, and we're selling insurance to it. We're making podcasts, we're making YouTube videos, and we can sell product.
It's perfect. You know, I'm thrilled to see him just building a brand and join it and we're transacting business it's perfect you know that renaissance man kind of project like you're saying yeah i've always looked for allies you know what i mean like i like playing sports i joke i want to be the seventh best guy on the basketball court you know it's terrible when you're 10th and if you're the first best it's boring you know like I like hunting with people you know even I know your wife's a badass um my wife's in PT school you know she's getting a doctorate like I'm looking for people are going to challenge me we can grow and win together you know I'm not looking for people to pat me on the butt I'm too nice to everyone so everyone's too nice to me I need people are going to challenge me and help me kind of grow and go forward yeah I love I'm the exact same way I I get bored with people who just tell me I'm doing things right very quickly.
I would not have married the woman that I married if that was what I was looking for. Like, and I don't mean that in a negative way that comes off very negative.
I mean, she she's a high performer, and she expects me to be a high performer along with her. And and that's a good thing.
And I, I'm with you. I, I, I also thrive in a team environment.
I, you know, I recently took on two, two partners in my business who will remain anonymous for now. Small, small, but I needed some people who are more than just emotionally invested in rogue, who could be sounding boards and that I could have on speed dial.
And I didn't just want to pay a consultant as much as there are some amazing consultants in our space that, that I don't mean that to come off negative to anyone who does consulting. Um, I, I needed some, I personally needed something more, someone who was kind of, you know, very committed.
And just having those two people just allowed me to talk through different things. And it has taken me from, I will say, a foggy vision of what I wanted Rogue to be to now we have a laser focused vision on who we are, what we're going to be, how we're going to attack the market.
And then that has allowed me to bring in Sarah and Matt, who who've amplified. And it's funny.
And I, I want to after you answer this question, I would like you to level set for everyone, all the things you actually do, because that's, we never got to that part. But, you know, I think, why do you think it is, like, what do you think that is about having a team? Because there are people who want to be solo, right? Like, what do you think it is that having a team brings out in you that allows you to be a better version of yourself? One of three brothers, you know,'m in the middle.
I always grew up playing sports. Actually, naturally a good long distance runner, but I always joke if God was like, you can be good at, you know, be a quarterback or shooting guard.
I had somebody tell me one time that means I'm egotistical. I was like, I don't know.
It's just fun. I don't know.
Success on our own. Like it's more fun seeing the bank account

go up when your spouse is there too. You'd be like, wow, that's pretty cool.
You know,

this is going up. Not that it goes up that often.
Um, so I guess, yeah, for background,

um, probably most relevant was doing office moving sales and a friend who's same age,

but I would say a little bit more mature, a little bit smarter was like, Hey, you should

check out insurance, good industry. So I got my PNC license to try to see where leases were going to go or building purchases but as a way to put my toe in the water did that for like three years uh while moving companies and then i thought my dad was gonna buy it when the writing was on the wall that he wasn't gonna buy the moving company he's always scratch call for a commissioned salesman great salesman i got to work with him for six years my older brother was badass like you know any positive traits i have selling with him you I worked worked at a church for three years a lot of good you know influence um but anyways personal lines for a year with the ability networking commercial i want to kind of mess with my paycheck at the end of the year small business weird things happen you know um six months that i thought was insure tech was kind of leads company goofy experience got recruited something else goofy experience for three months was experience for three months was like, screw it.
I'm going to go out on my own, go back to restaurants, bartend. That was like three and a half years ago.
Didn't know what I didn't know. Was on my own for six months, sold some personal lines.
Didn't realize how sticky the commercial relationships were, how hard it is to move that paper, what a long road that is. So hopped at my buddy's benefit shop for a year and a half did pnc there great place to cut my teeth you know he's corporately trained you know really knows his stuff a year ago got back out on my own year and change and uh got a business partner ed who's 57 who's ran a national marine agency before you know 20 employees six locations um similar you know he lost a job two years before had a goofy stint I was like dude you're too knowledgeable like this needs to be like your master class you know at the time he's like 55 56 we started talking I was like make a good 10 years let's build something worthwhile you know and we have all my tech goofiness versus his ability to actually run a company and uh make sure we're making money which apparently is important.
Found out later. That's what everyone says.
Apparently. Yeah.
That's the rumor. So luckily through, you know, insurance nerds, Lamparelli, you know, being friends with guys like yourself, you know, my buddies up in Canada, you know, Faneo kind of heard of me, knew of me and I was independent.
So I was like, yeah, I can get you licensed. I don't, I don't know life insurance as well as I should, but I'm licensed.
Like how can I help? So we started working together about two and a half years ago, really cool relationship going from, you know, small goofy business to hang out around a VC back startup. It was like trying to row canoe to hopping on a little battleship, you know, and like, it's been fun and like work really closely with one of the co-founders, Donald, he's a great businessman.
Get to learn from him. So they're working hand in hand.
You know, Blake lets us use his address to start. We end up getting our own little address.
So that's all growing together. When Ed and I get going, you know, year and change ago, he's like, hey, I have this programmer friend with a lending CRM.
Would you want to try to build an AMS? I was like, dude, you're nuts. Like we're trying the hardest thing in the world to get like a scratch agency going.
And do you want to build like a CRM AMS? I'm like, you're out of your mind. But like he had been open to me.
So I'm like, okay, sure. You know, starts off as this little quiet project.
I let Allie and Donald know. I'm like, Hey, by the way, this is random.
I swear I didn't mean to get into something else. Just want to let you know before this goes out in public, like no problem.
I was like, I'm saving life for us on there. We built, and I'll show it to you afterwards, but a really cool light CRM.
You could dump in a CSV file, move them over to prospects, active, inactive, load up documents. There's something else.
It's not public yet. I'll tell you about later.
You close that business, it can drop right into the agency management side of the house the point isn't be cost effective but it is cost effective we're building it for the small guys the one to two main agencies you know want to help out marine want to help aviation you know kind of the unloved little corners of our industry yeah so just a happy accident and we're eating our own dog food we have you know 60-ish clients they're ourselves 60 probably personal lines probably 30 commercial 10 life we hit it for all verticals because that's kind of rare but this bootstrap little thing there's four of us out of southern california working on it just real happy accident um but yeah so the three main horses are the brokerage which i'm lucky that's living in and running. And I just try to help out with prospecting and kind of backend the CRM AMS, which is actually, you know, somebody else's company that we're all partnering to build.
And then, you know, Faneo is the big venture-backed startup that I've been lucky to, you know, they've gotten me out to Toronto twice, you know, just really cool. And you know, it's like when you're out there trying to build, like you said, it's kind of lonely.
So having the Faneo team while working on my own stuff has been a nice blend of like community thought building, and then also my own shingle. So I don't want to sound full of shit.
Like I don't, you know, like I want to sell business. I want to be in the paperwork.
I don't want to pretend to have done more than I have, but I'm working on insurance every day. I have lists of things I need to do right here, you know? So try to add some authenticity to work with the startups, which I've enjoyed, but dude, thanks for helping me get a jumpstart, you know, with the early podcast, just giving perspective to all this shit.
It's fun to be on here, you know? Yeah. Well, it was funny.
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It was funny. It was funny.
It was funny. It was funny immediately stopped what I was doing I was like yo you gotta just just come on show and you're like oh yeah well you know I was like no no just let's do this time just come on and you can come on again if you got something else to but like it was it was weird to me that that you hadn't been on and you know and if this is this is probably not a surprise to our regular listeners, but there is no formal invite process.
Ryan Hanley show it is. I just kind of like that person would be fun or talk to them in a while or someone will people reach out.
There's like a there's just no formal process. I appreciate, though, I kind of feel like, you know, I'll call it like business big brother or something.
It was fun when I ran into into the ITC too. We got to meet that person.
That's always cool. Yeah, that was cool.
I remember Christopher Franklin being like, Brett Flormer's a lot bigger than you'd think just physically. That's right.
Yeah. It's funny.
That feels like a lifetime ago too. It's probably like 2018, right? So it was that three years ago.
I just lost a job like three months before, went out there, had a broker bruise the night before ITC, and then just drove back. I spent $60 on my hotel room, 180 on the happy hour, drove out and drove back.
Yeah, no, it's fun hacking it together. But yeah, dude, you were open.
I mean, it's funny you say it this way. Like you've been known, you've been around a long time, and I felt very considered even before I started being on the scene more, you know, so thanks for being down to earth.
Yeah. As much as I've actually done anything in what you just said, thank you.
I appreciate it. It's funny.
I get, uh, I, I, uh, you know, you're, you're describing where you are, right? You have this agency.

You also have two startups that you're a part of.

And I think for a lot of people listening that,

for some people listening,

they may be nodding their head going,

oh yeah, that's cool.

And for other people, they're going,

geez, what is wrong with these guys?

Why don't they just focus on one thing?

And I will say,

because I've thought about this a lot, right?

Because even doing this podcast, I'm doing a podcast.

It's one o'clock in the afternoon on a Thursday. And the day that we're recording it, you know, whenever you're listening to it, it'll be later.
And there's a lot of people that if they were my life coach, they would say, why are you doing that? Like, don't do that. Like you're,'re you're you should be quoting policies or building automations or doing any other number of things to rogue that aren't this and then I also like I said I'm have maybe it's probably half a dozen companies that I'm advising for and then the number of other things that I do during a week that aren't just rogue would, would probably make a lot of agency owners want to barf.
That being said, you know, I don't know, you know, I, I think, you know, I think you could probably relate to this and I'm just interested in your perspective. You know, I go back and forth.
Like I don't know how to be any other way. Like I see projects that I want to be involved in that I think are interesting, whether they're interesting for rogue or not.
Right. There's projects that I'm involved in that I give feedback on and attend regular phone calls for, to, you know, as an advisor, they'll never be, I mean, they're all insurance.
Everything I do is insurance industry, but they'll never be, they'll never, I'll never use the product. Not, not just, it just doesn't fit what I'm doing.
Not, not that I think it's a bad, obviously I don't think it's a bad product. I'm advising them.
And I just think that I don't know how to be any other way. I just, I don't know how to, how do you look at something that looks interesting and go, nah, nah, I, I don't know.
I'm with you. I, I've thought about a few different ways.
Um, I tend to try to think like a VC and not literally back horses that overlap. They can kind of like go up next to each other.
Like Faneo, for instance, is kind of like a cover wall, but for a life financial planning insurance, the CRM AMS can plug into Faneo. And then I could use both as an agency.
an agency and i can sell through faneo's pipes i can recruit to faneo um i think it is important to touch projects highlight projects that you don't have any equity in like you know clear cover that you don't have skin in the game on because i think it provides an air of authenticity i think that there's a network effect too that by touching these things i can Like I actually hang out and I haven't lately, cause I'm not trying to ensure startups right now, just because they're too all over the place. So I'm going to try to work on a classic industry.
Um, but I would hang in a FinTech slack, you know, I actually don't pay that much attention to our industry for being around as much as I am. I kind of don't care.
Like I'm playing my game. I'm trying to help the people that I'm friends with.
I'm trying to build business and none of my clients give a shit about broker Brett. You know, none of my clients care that I'm lucky to have doors open within our industry.
To me, I try to be as active as I can around the insure tech stuff to get doors open. And I'm just trying to get the best spears as early as I can to go hunt as well as I can.
And I do appreciate having a business partner who's 57, who will call spade a spade and he'll hang with these intro texts with me. And sometimes the stuff makes sense.
And sometimes he's like, that doesn't really pass the sniff test. Like we actually need the clients to use that.
How are they going to get us to clients? All that emissions great, but who's coming in the door, you know, like, so just balance. And for me, it was having a business partner who can live in the agency so I can touch the other stuff you know that was helpful yeah um you know yeah try to be reasonable i i try to help my brother's cooler startup and my wife shut me down she's like hey has to be insurance you know kind of funny yeah so there's a little bit of that um to me it's so random but finao being on the east coast is helpful and then trying to build a business in the west coast so i can do a lot of that tech stuff in the morning you know and then cold calling whatever in the afternoon little things like that kind of line up you know pretty good yeah that's cool i i will say that um yeah i i keep my eyes a big part of this podcast that i do part of it is i just like talking to people part of it is and've said this a bunch, I feel an obligation to add as much value back to this industry that has changed my life, right? I mean, my kids live in a nice suburban home and go to a nice school because, you know, very, very much unlike me, you know, my youth, because, you know, I of this industry because of my wife and her family and what this industry has brought.
So I feel an obligation to give back as much as possible. And the other side of it is, like, just like you said, I think by by engaging by getting to know people by taking a half hour on a Friday to hear someone's story, you know, and learn from them and give them some feedback and connect them to people.
You're gathering intel constantly and building karma in the world. You know, you're building credits that you can exchange down the line for things that you might need, right?

Hey, can you introduce me to insert this person that helps you deliver more value to your customers or whatever?

And while I agree with and believe that focus is very much important, at the same time, if there's any through thread to my own career, it's serendipity. And that's only through constant connection and value delivery.
What's up, guys? Sorry to take you away from the episode. But as you know, we do not run ads on this show.
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Peace. Let's get back to the episode.
Yeah. Um, Lamperelli, I feel lucky to be kind of mentored by him when I was in between and I lost that job doing my own thing.
Him and Steven Goldstein were really the two that were like, no, just figure it out one way or another, just go build, help um he would say it's about the relationships he's like I don't care if anybody watches or listens to I have somebody for an hour that I really get to connect with and we're fighting the same fight we're in the same battle you know like that to him was what it was all about yeah and I think you know being a partner in a brokerage and to be honest like we went 5050 because like that's a grown ass man and he's a solid dude and you want to go to war together. I care about building my business.
Like I'll take a lot of pride when that thing's freaking chugging. You know what I mean? Like this stuff's really cool.
This stuff opens doors. But to me, that's the crown jewel I'm chasing is like, wow, you know, we figured out the mousetrap and, you know, we can deploy other people to do the same thing, you know, even candidly, the name sets itself up to once we feel like we have it, you know, we can deploy other insurance center, you know, other people get rolling, but we got to figure out how to make our own stuff work first.
Yeah. And that's the, I'll tell you early on, one of the things that I have, one of the things that I have struggled, I won't say struggled, struggled, struggled is not the right word.

One of the things that is tough mentally is when you see where you want to go with your product or with your experience that you want to provide and you know who you want to be, but you don't yet have the volume or the, you know, you're just not there from a cash flow standpoint to put it in place, you know, and eating the fact that you're not delivering at the level that you want to deliver yet is tough sometimes. You know what I mean? Cause it's like, I know what I want rogue to be, but we're not there yet.
You know what I mean? We're not, we're not, I mean, they're, if someone were to come in and snapshot our business today, I'm sure any number of people could poke a million holes in our operation. That's the man in the ring versus the commentator, dude.
And nothing's perfect. So not to piggyback to, you know, my main horse, I've been hanging out with that Faneo in Canada, watertight, plugged in and going into carriers, super clean, super fluid, rolling out in California first in the US.
And you know, the backend connectivity is not there yet. For instance, there's a few other things that we would love to do here that they can't do here that are up in Canada I'm still talking to people I still have to say this is what we got this is today this is where it ends this is where we want to go this is what we're planning on doing and I think that's okay as long as you're authentic you know as long as you're like these are the tools we're offering these are things we'd love to offer this is what we're working on and we grow this together we want your feedback you know we're regularly going to meet as a team of three of how we can make your client experience better.
This is what we got for you today. This is what we want to have for you.
We appreciate being in this relationship for a lifetime. There's a 93% retention rate.
We hope to be a hundred percent, you know, relationship. You're getting these services today, but in 10 years, I hope you're getting 10 times the services.
I think that's fine. You know, I think just the candidness, you know, plus I have a feeling whatever you're offering is going to be at or above what they're getting anyways or what they're getting from somebody else.
So you're already starting in a good spot. It might not be your, you know, presentation, like vision casted perfection, but who cares? Nobody actually cares about us.
We're critical of ourselves. You know, we're trying to do it.
They just want good, honest people to provide insurance that's going to do its job, you know, that's all. so you know we're trying to do it they just want good honest people to provide insurance that's going to do its job you know it's all so you know just in general what like as you're building this agency right so we're both building agencies that are fairly close in age when did you launch so technically three years ago and change but then i kind of shelved my own initiatives to sort of learn at my buddies and to help faneo and then last march me and ed decided to kind of what day in march like 17th or something oh yeah i got you by eight days exactly so as peers i sounds like we're not in each other's minutiae you're ahead of of us.
And you got three people and it's me and Ed just rolling up our sleeves ourselves.

So it's all perspective.

And I'm sure there's somebody out there who would love to have relationships and connections I have to open doors or even the number of people I have on LinkedIn or Instagram.

It's that whole, you can always look at somebody else and be jealous.

The problem where I think it's going to be hard on you is just the people you're running with, we're all playing our own game i just listened to a great book called the psychology of money and it's like you can't really pick on other people or you shouldn't really judge them because everyone's coming at this game from a different lens you don't understand circumstances how i handle credit cards as a kid who grew up in la county kind of middle to maybe slightly lower times to upper middle income. It's going to be different than my best friend who grew up in Yorba Linda and their family has a third generation machine shop with 200 employees.
I'm going to do stuff he thinks is dumb, but as a salesman who's been like overextended times, like I might have these mission critical decisions that are less than ideal, but this is how I'm living. You know, we're all on our own journey.
As long as you're challenging yourself, like I'm jealous of where you're at. I'm sure somebody is jealous of me.
And I'm sure somebody is jealous of the person who's jealous of me. You know, as long as we're all striving, I think we're doing fine.
You know? Yeah, I agree with you. I also, I am a big, big proponent of not.
So, so Jordan Peterson, I've talked about him on the show before. I'm going to, he.
I think 12 rules of life. I listened to that book.
That was awesome. Yes.
His next one beyond order I'm reading right now. I just somehow building a startup doesn't lend itself to a reading time.
Now I'm sure there's someone who's like, Oh, I just get up earlier, but just tough. Um, that being said, so I'm not as far along and beyond order as I'd like to be, but 12 rules for life.
I, as much as a book has, it changed my vantage point on, on life. And one of the things that he says in that book is do not compare yourself to anyone else, compare yourself to who you were yesterday.
So are you better today than you were the day before? Like just, just, just win this day, just be better today than you were yesterday don't worry about anyone else and I think that's a while at face than done yeah yeah I think it's powerful I think it's easier said than done I think it also can be brushed off as trite um but I think if you let it sink in and use it as a construct, it's very, very important.

And the reason for that is, I'll use an example. So I pay for, it's the second most expensive thing that I pay for in my agency on a month-to-month basis, Donna for Agents, which is an analytics platform.
It's way more than that. It's the balls.
I kind of love it, in full transparency, they are also a sponsor, but I pay out of pocket for it. So it's not, I don't get it for free.
I pay for it. Um, and if you were to look at my agency, you would say you don't need that.
And you don't, I don't need it to be successful. It does.
It does not today make me more money than yes. Now, if I was in this, you know, in five years from now, I know it will.
So that's, so, so I am making an investment and building into the fabric and culture of my agency analytics and data, because I believe so strongly in what they will do for my agency. And I don't want to wait three years and then try to backdoor it in.
I'm going to make it part of the core of who we are. We're going to analyze what's happening.
We're going to think through our data and our clients and how we can service them better and where gaps are, and we're going to find them. And that's going to be part of who we are, not something, not a nice to have down the road.
And I think that's a decision that some agency owners would make, some wouldn't make. I've decided to make that decision.
And I think that if there are people who go, oh, you know, you get to have that. I'm like, not get to have, I pay for that.
Like, that's something like I write the check every month for that thing. And just like everything else, no one likes to see their credit card go bing.
You know, you just paid, you know, this amount for this thing. And you're like, oh, you know, but but the point is.
That I could say that to you and you can go, that's great. Don't need it.
Right. And that has to we have to be OK with that.
Right. I think I think that's's the thing to your point about, um, jealousy or comparing ourselves to others.
I look at some of, some of the people that, that are, that I, uh, aspire to be like, like David Carruthers, right. He, I talk about him all the time on the show.
The dude is just a killer of a salesman just has it thinks about in a different way, the levels of, you know, the levels that he thinks about while selling in terms of connecting and connecting different ideas and examples and stories. I just don't think that way.
I just don't. And, you know, I think you, I can be jealous of that, or I could just be happy to know him, learn what I can and be aspirational.
And it's, it's really difficult.

I think, cause there are times when like he'll post something.

I mean, I'm just like anybody else, right.

He'll post something about just writing a $50,000 account.

And he's using as an educational thing. And in my mind, I'm like,

you son of a bitch, I die for a $50,000 revenue. Are you kidding me?

Take my pinky finger right now. You can have it, you know? So it's like,'s like it's just tough things you know these are the things that we have to deal with emotionally i kind of want to backtrack to your donna for agents um big fan of like plan the work work the plan and begin with the end of mind you know it's sort of like if you're framing up a house and you knew you wanted a second story like you would would put in the stairs and go plumbing, you know where you want to go, man.

I don't fault that at all.

I think it's smart.

I don't, and this is funny to say, I don't feel like naturally the best salesman in the world.

I get along with people.

You know, when I said I was getting into sales, my brother's like, you're the nicest guy in the world, but you're a bulldog.

He's like, you'll be fine.

So he was confident, but I'm self-conscious of my own, you know, kill mentality or whatever.

But I looked at sales as the doorstep to small business. And I looked at small businesses, the ability to be independent.
And I'm always chasing kind of independence, libertarian, whatever else. So that's why I think I got into sales was more for the potential fiscal related freedom, not even like to be rich, but to just kind of control your own time, energy, be a part of what you want to be a part of i don't know my little brother's a better salesman than i am he's great he sells cars you know works a dodge dealership he crushes it um how come he's not working for the agency we fight too much we can't even get off a phone call without yelling at each other half the time can't make that i can't make that car money at the age we were they make they make good money don't sleep on a nice dodge chrysler jeep dealership um so funny we're 21 months apart i would joke that like seven years apiece three years of war growing up he's still the only person ever punched me in the face i had two black eyes and bloody nose uh he's a you know shot putter you know lineman football player um which i actually just kind of but as a brother, I almost appreciate getting punched in the face once so you can do it.
You're like, oh, okay, that wasn't that bad. The rest of your life, you kind of have that in back pocket.
I don't know. Yeah, dude, I'm dyslexic.
I talk about that more now. I think I was more self-conscious about talking about it before.
I am very good at connecting the dots, putting together you know seeing around corners a little bit but I have other shortcomings you know and I play with the skill set that I have and I do my best you know and just keep showing up you know I think that's the other part of this game yeah I um I was blessed to pick up pretty early in my career and I don't't know where I got this from exactly. Probably just a string of decent managers and, and, and leaders in different businesses that I was in where the concept of, you know, no, no what you're good at and just do not get rid of your ego and everything else.
Right. Just know this.
That might be the baseball player in you because baseball players are very narrow, you know, like could be, you know, I, I, I don't know. I don't know.
I don't know exactly what it was, but I've just always operated from a mentality of if I'm not good at something, I want someone else to do it. And I have standards and I have a belief structure on quality.
And

that doesn't mean, because I think, I think a common, a common misconception in our space is

that like, if an agency owner has someone else do that thing, whatever that thing is, that somehow

they're less than, oh, you don't do that. Like, I'll be honest with you.
If I never went, if I

never sold another insurance policy, the rest of my life, I'd be perfectly happy. It's something I do today.
I do it less because Matt is part of the team who I, who I, who I talked about. Hopefully in the near future, I can hire another salesperson because we have enough volume.
And then maybe I can only, then I'll only sell direct referrals. And then hopefully I'll never, ever, ever, ever have to sell another policy.
And I'll be honest with you. I will, that will be a huge win in my book.
Well, the thing is you have knocked the doors. You have done the personal sales.
You've done the one-to-one sales. I think you need to be as a leader.
I think you, you can't be perfect at everything, but I think you got to touch the org top to bottom.

I think it's important to know the guys at the bottom of the org.

I've learned a lot of that stuff from my best friend, Mike.

Like their machine shop, he knows the guys at the bottom.

He's worked the machines.

He's slept the floors.

I mean, I'm still making cold calls for Finao to agents one-to-one.

I'm still calling garages and dealerships for Newport Beach Insurance Center.

I'm literally using the CRM AMS that we built to try to sell business to. And I do it just because that's where we are today.
And I'm with you. At some point, I'm going to have to step back.
But you've done those things that allow you to lead and understand what other people are doing. You know, as long as you're, as long as you can wrap yourself around what you're asking people to do.
Yeah, ideally, you want smarter, more talented, more specialized people to be doing things than you are, you know, let's say you build a team. That's how you win.
I think ideally because that's your mindset and my mindset. And it's one of the blessings I think of working in a couple of different technology startups.
Cause I do think it's very much the culture of technology startups is, is cohesively work a team of specialists cohesively working together at pace. Right.
I think that's a big part of the culture of these and transferred into the insurance industry. I think it's an enormous competitive advantage.
I do not think it is as culturally accepted in our space as maybe you and I would think that it is that that's my perspective. If I could be wrong.
I just... Well, I think there's two things at play.
I heard the reason why SF sort of took off over Boston, because for a while it seemed like tech-wise they were similar, was you have a very flat paradigm on the West Coast. Everyone has a voice, everyone's contributing and growing, but the East is a little bit more hierarchical because it's been around longer.
And I think in our industry, when you get to those structures that have been in place for good reason lethargy is also like a protective measure if you have a big thing you don't want to pivot real quick and fall off a cliff if things are working let them keep working um i think startups and i think scratch agencies are trying to do the impossible you know they're getting funding to try to build a flywheel to grow past the incumbent. So I think when when shit's crazy, you know, Ali from Feneo open to what I have to say.
Donald open to what I say. It's all hands on deck.
It's like we're trying to do the impossible. Whoever can bail water, whoever can help by all means get in here.
Let's help us do this shit. But I can get where, you know, if an agency set up, if there's a structure in place you want to maintain if you're paying the bills if you've hit your number i think you talked about that with meg whitman yep um you kind of check out a little you know and i think you and i both are hungry i like the game to me i broke my hand when i was 30 i used to play in like three men's leagues in a week uh my 20s uh basketball i love basketball but i'm lucky that like startups and sales have kind of taken over my sports itch.
I feel like this is where I compete. Like I run a lot, but this is where I like, feel like I win and I lose and I feel lucky to gain some ground.
And Ed's never sold before. It is so freaking cool.
He's taking deals soup to nuts, you know? And it's like so freaking cool, you know, and we're just winning together, competing together. I had a carrier call for Faneo the other day that went really well.
I was floored, you know, like to me that felt levels beyond, you know, what I'm expecting to do. You know, I was, I was really jazzed, you know.
No, I do. Yeah, I do.
I think it's funny, man. I feel, I feel, and I think we share and I think we share this because in many regards, I think our paths and what we do on a day-to-day basis are fairly similar in so much as to be able to touch as many things, be able to have as many conversations, to be able to say, if someone calls or emails or texts, and I get a a lot of them and I don't ever tell anyone no you know sometimes I just can't help people I can attest to that from when I haven't been as known you know I mean you were still open dude appreciate it just I I'll be honest with you I get as much enthusiasm I had a call with a prospect on Friday of last week.
If that deal closes, it literally changes. It levels us up.
It's, you know, we go from, we go, we, we jump in one of, you know, Mario jumps in one of those things that takes them from level two to level eight, you know, and, and, and that was awesome. Felt jacked, jacked up, you know, rolled into Duke's baseball game, like, you know, flying high.
It was awesome. And then, you know, that weekend, I got a text from a guy who said, Hey, I, you know, he had a problem and not a problem, but he had a, you know, he was trying to solve a problem.
And I just said, Hey, I'm going to send you an email right now and connect you to this person. They'll be able to help you.
And I did that. And I felt just as jacked up about connecting.
I'll never make it a dollar. It means it, it, it'll never, you know, it's, it was nothing about finances.
It was nothing about no one will ever, I'll never say what the thing was or what it was other than the situation. And it was just that I felt just as much energy out of that.
And I was like, I feel when I first got into the industry, and this is what I'll say on this. And, you know, is that when I first got into this industry, and this, this isn't ubiquitous.
So please don't anyone who's been around for a long time, take this negatively. But there was much more of a general sense of stay in your space.

Don't share.

People will steal from you.

They'll steal your producers.

They'll steal your producers. They'll steal your ideas.
They'll steal your clients. When I first started talking about digital marketing, people would ask me, should we put our carriers on our website? Because we don't want our competitors to know what carriers we have.
I mean, today, that concept, I think, to the average 45 and under insurance professional is bonkers, right? I mean, it's completely bonkers. But just a decade ago, you did not do that because you didn't tell anyone what carriers you have.
And I love today that we're in this space where we're so open, so willing to share. You have agents who would have, who a decade ago would have been thought as competitors sitting on the same advisory boards, the same state association boards, starting, you know, JVs with each other to attack certain markets.
I mean, it's just, it's so, it's such a fantastic time to be in our space. It's just fun.
Not to be too like talking heady. I got lucky that to a guy when I was youth pass from 1821 was pretty like reflective, I guess, kind of made us consider a lot of stuff, but you compare the internet to the printing press.
You know, we went from competing with our neighbor cause it was analog and there was like a main street to, I think today you want to have that main street. Look, you want to build your company almost in a boring way, like a grandpa would trust, but you want the digital reach, you know? So I think we just, the world changed, you know, we went from competing with our neighbor to realizing, yeah, we can go as far as fast as we want to go, you know? And like, I think it's cool, man.
I'm with you. I definitely like the blue ocean mentality to go back to Kyle Nakasuchi, which I feel like I'm messing that up.
I've heard the SIGO guys say really nice things about him. I've heard loop insurance say really nice things about him.
Technically these should be his competitors, but I think that abundance mindset, you know, same thing. Like there's a joke that Napoleon would only, uh, you know, get generals that consider themselves lucky.
Cause if you think you're lucky, you stay open, you know, and you find a, you find you find a an opportunity you know you have a plan um no it's fun man i love the next

cohort you know and i feel lucky to be a part of it i you know i sold copiers i work constructions

i sold office moves for six years this industry is awesome i mean compared to having to manage a

crew and do collections and whatever else like we're lucky our paperwork sucks it can be stressful

but at the end of the day we got an annuity we're doing something that you can make a lot of money and you're generally doing good for people that's freaking cool and i think what you're saying about that guy handing the thing off properly we just want loose ends to be taken care of we want people have good insurance products doesn't really matter if it goes through us or somebody else there's really like a farmer kind of mentality i think to insurance as opposed to maybe commercial real estate you know where they're competing with each other for the same building yeah in the back of our mind we just want people to be covered you know we just want good paper to be out there yeah yeah i think you're right i think you're right man well we uh we touched on a lot of topics in an hour i can't believe it's already been an hour it it's been about 10 minutes. This is tremendous.
And I got a few things I want to talk to you about offline. So if people want to get at you, they want to learn more about what you have going on.
Great follow on Twitter for sure. Where can people get ahold of you? Yeah, so LinkedIn, I actually think it's backslash Broker Brett.
And I want to say it's broker underscore Brett on Twitter to B-R-E-T-T at brokerbrett.com is probably the best one. I use it kind of like a little hub site, but yeah, broker underscore Brett on Twitter.
Yeah. I would not pretend to have anything figured out, but happy to share what I'm up to, what I'm learning as I go.
And if you Google Finaio Yeah, F-I-N-A-E-O

or capital IMS. Yeah.
Capta, uh, IMS. Yeah.
It's a fun one. Yeah.
We'll cheat those in the show notes. Um, great down to earth people on both projects and feel very fortunate to be just helping build stuff while building an agency.
Yeah. Awesome, man.
Well, I'm, I'm very glad that we finally got you on the show. I almost feel bad that it has taken so long.
But I mean this with the most sincerity. I'm glad that there are people out there like you who are so willing to spread themselves out because I know how stressful that can be.
But in an in an effort to help improve and provide value and, and just share ideas.

I mean, that's how,

that's how we all grow is the,

the intermingling of people on different organizations,

cross pollinating ideas. And I think that you're a big part of that.

And I'm just happy to have you, man. So thanks for being here.

Thanks man. Likewise.
Thanks for going through the wall first. See you.
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