RHS 074 - Chad Eddy

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In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home. Hello, hello, and welcome back to the show.
It's great to have you guys. I love that you guys listen to the podcast because I love doing the podcast.
And when you guys listen to it and it adds value to your life in some way, shape, or form, that's meaningful to me because I will never charge you for the podcast. And I don't sell any e-books or courses or anything like that.
Not that there's anything wrong with that stuff, but I just don't because I just like having cool conversations with cool people who I think can add value. And that's who we have today.
Chad Eddy is president and CEO of Indium. Indium is an agency network.
Call them a market access company, an aggregator, whatever you want to call them. There's a bunch of different names.
I don't know that anyone's ever actually defined them in a very official way, but Indium refers to itself as a market access company. I am a part of Indium.
I love it. There's many good networks.
And we've had Matt Masiello from SIA on here. I'd had Danielle Smink from CLI on here.
I've done virtual and in-person speaking gigs for different master agencies of SIA. and I was on Tony Caldwell's podcast, who works with a master agency for SIA.
And my point in saying all that is, I think networks are an important part of the future of independent insurance agents. They're all different.
No one network is a perfect fit for every agent. That's absolutely positively true.
And I want you to know that outside of the fact that I just really do love Indium and Chad, who I've gotten to know well over the last year of Rogue's existence, has become a friend and someone I really enjoy and appreciate. And we just talk like normal people talk.
We don't, not just business stuff. Like I just enjoy, um, Chad quite a bit.
Um, you know, this is not like an outright endorsement for Indium in terms of like, I think if you go someplace else or don't part, be part of a network that that's a bad decision. I like an Indium.
I'm not gonna shy away from that. And I really like Chad and I really like his people.
But I want you, but, but the point of this is actually to break down a blog post that Chad wrote that I think is, is an important, there's a lot of important concepts within it that, that are, that our industry are dealing with. And I wanted to dive into it.
And I think you're going to get a lot out of this. And I really hope in the beginning, we talk kind of high level.
And if you're not into some of that, I ask only that you keep listening because we do start to really dive down and talk about kind of tactical things that agencies, both leadership and producers, should be thinking, things they should be considering when they interact with each other, and how we can align our agencies, both leadership and producers, should be thinking things they should be considering when they interact with each other and how we can align our agencies, both leadership and staff, for success moving forward. And Chad's in a unique position to have the perspectives that he does.
So I think this is a tremendously valuable episode. I was very happy that Chad was willing to give me so much of his time and I'm very happy to share him and his thoughts with you.
Before we get there, I want to give a shout out to the sponsor of today's show, Better Agency. I've said this once.
I've said it at least a dozen times now on this show, at least the times when I've done reads for Better Agency. They are hands down, unequivocally, the best personal lines independent insurance agency CRM that exists on the marketplace today.
Absolutely hands down the best personal line CRM. Now I've had people ask me about the commercial lines.
Commercial lines is getting better every single day. But if you were to say, what's the best commercial line CRM? I don't know.
What I do know is if personal lines is important to your agency at all today, better agency is absolutely the best. And some of the things they're doing and the improvements they're making are putting them light years out ahead of the competition.
Now, commercial lines is rapidly coming behind there. I do more commercial lines than I do personal lines and I use Better Agency.
So that should be a testament to you. But I really just think Nick and Preston and McBilly and Will and everyone associated with their team, John and everybody there.
When you have a question, you have a problem, they answer it, they fix it, they help you with best practices. And some of the things I know that are going on behind the scenes in terms of connecting with different systems, I just think Better Agency is going to be a big part of our ecosystem for a long time.
I am absolutely honored that they are a part of this show in terms of being a sponsor and help me pay for the cost of putting this thing on and making sure that it's always free for you. And if you are in the market for a CRM, I don't want you to just switch CRMs to switch.
That's not what I'm asking you to do. I'm saying, but if you are in the market for a CRM or you're looking for something that maybe can help you really dial in your communications, Better Agency should absolutely be one of the options that you consider.
That's what I'm saying. So go to betteragency.io, betteragency.io.
I think there's a 14-day free trial or the trial's like a dollar. Test it out, get the demo.
And I think if it works for you, you're going to be very happy that you made that decision. So better agency.io.
All right. With that, uh, let's get on to chat.
Eddie. Let's, let's get into the meat and potatoes of this.
I, um, I, cause we could just do the bullshit thing for the entire hour and then we'd never actually record the podcast. But, um, so, so you wrote this article and, uh, so how did this happen? You, I said something or I wrote something and then you said, dude, I'm writing, I'm writing an article about this.
I'm going to send it to you. And then you did and I read it and it was awesome.
And that's what I want to talk about today. Yeah.
Yeah. You, you tweeted, I think you tweeted, love the grind.
Yes. That was your tweet.
And I saw that literally I was, and I've been kind of drafting that blog post for a while and really quite frankly, wrestling, whether to even make it a blog post, you know, like, how relevant is it, whatever. But I hadn't really thought about it in quite a while.
And the reality is where that comes from. It's frankly, an indictment of my career in the early, early stages.
Like I remember when I started thinking that way, I remember when it, when it was, where I was, I was on the tarmac at O'Hare flying home. I took the red eye from San Francisco home and it was my last day on the job with the company I was with.
And I was transitioning to a new job, new company, new role. And, you know, I just remember thinking, like, what is wrong with me? It was, I was getting into my fourth company, my third career change in my first eight years of my career.
So I just kind of had this moment of like, I'm excited, but something, you know, something isn't right. I had, you know, just sort of this, you know, burned out, but super reflective moment of like, you know, what is wrong with me?

I'm making all these changes and where am I going? What am I doing with my career? All this stuff, right? So heading into this new job, new company, new everything going, all right, what's going to be different this time? You know, I've gone through all these roles, these companies, great jobs, great companies, no complaints, but it's like, I'm in this churn. And so I got kind of this, I don't know, visual of, I thought I was in this groove.
Like I thought everything was going great. And then all of a sudden you kind of find yourself, or for me anyway, sort of desperate for a change.
And having gone through that in such a short period of time, I don't, I just started thinking like, all right, sort of danger. Well, Robinson, what's going on here, you know? And in my, in that next role is when I really started leading people and getting more into that kind of, kind of job.
And I realized, man, everyone's going through it too. Now I'm leading people who are coming to me with these same, like, you know, I don't want to call it burnout because I think that's maybe part of it, but different.
But they were going through this cycle of, hey, I'm kind of ready for something new or, hey, I'm almost in this victim cycle. And I talk about it and it helped me realize too, too like yeah that's that's what I went through you sort of feel you go through this super committed I'm super excited I got this new thing and it's exhausting and then you figure it out and you get in this rhythm but all of a sudden you wake up and it's like I think I'm being left out I don't think I'm valuable anymore and you almost get desperate and I'm, and when I, when I put that blog on paper, like those words, I have, I have distinct visuals of interactions with folks that I led or, you know, self-reflection, like as I really put that blog post together into, into more specific words, like that's descriptive of what I've gone through, what people I led have gone through.
And it just got clearer and clearer as the years went on that, hey, there's this cycle going on. And I attribute it, maybe to some extent of the time that I went through.
I'm going to date myself. My career really started in the mid-90s.
And if you look at that time frame, there was a lot of stuff going on.

I mean, the internet was coming to fruition.

Technology was coming to, I mean, it was super disruptive and that's not unique. Obviously there's all sorts of points in time you can point to, but my point in that is it just felt like it was on a hyper schedule, like this cycle was getting shorter and shorter and things were getting more and more

intense my conversations with people about feeling like the need to do something different or feeling like they've been left out was getting more and more intense and it just happening more and more frequently I just think that was the nature of the 90s y2k early 2000s there was just so much going on it was very easy to get caught in the cycle of you get into this new thing, you finally figure it out. And before too long, you feel like I'm being left out.
It's like, man, I just mastered this thing. Yeah.
But how am I already left out? You know what I mean? And so anyway, I caught myself talking to myself that way, talking to my direct reports that way. And people started talking about it.
I don't have the market cornered on this idea of, you know, the groove and the rut. You can Google the groove and the rut.
There's all sorts of people that have written about that as a career analogy. So, but people started talking about it.
I remember being kind of later down the road, in a, in fact, in a sales training class and the guy talking about from a sales cycle perspective, depending on the length of the sales cycle, be careful. You can feel like you're in a groove, but you can get in a rut.
And when you get in a rut, it kind of hits you. So, you know, be careful about that.
And I remember thinking like, yeah, that's it. It's, it's this, you know, very fuzzy line between being in a groove and all of a sudden finding yourself in a rut.
So those words started kind of resonating and, and I kind of, you know, added on the grind, you know, the grind of doing something new, it's exciting and all that kind of stuff, but it's hard fricking work. And then kind of the grave at the end, if you're not careful, like shit, you are going to be left out, you know? Yeah.
You know, it's funny, the, that, so I, this is going to date me, I graduated high school in 99, graduated college in 2003. And I hit the workforce 2003 hard.
But I had a very similar thing in that I change jobs. I mean, really, except for the Murray group, and I guess you could consider trustedchoice.com Agency Nation days, because I was there for four years, a little over four years.
You know, I've done a lot of job hopping, a lot. And I've, when I read this, one of the things that immediately resonated with me is how this is exactly how it happens.
And I think some of it for me, and so I've done a lot of, in starting Rogue, and, you know, I mean, I've talked enough about on this podcast about my, you know, I kind of hit a wall at the Murray Group, I hit a wall at Agency Nation. I hit a wall at Old Penguin.
I hit a very, very large and thick wall at the fitness business. And then there was a whole series of jobs before.
I had a whole life, four years of career, career, jobs or whatever, before I joined the Murray Group. So it wasn't like the Murray Group was my first job.
I worked for American Express in the financial district. I worked for RSM and Gladry.
I traveled all over the country as an accounting consultant. I worked in D.C.
I had clients, clients that, that were government contractors and every year and a half, every, you know, 18 to 24 months, I started looking around going, this is it. This is, this is, this is what I'm going to do.
Like, which is a crazy thought. I'm 24 years old and I'm already like, this is the rest of my life.
Now looking back at it, it seems crazy, but at the time it feels very real. And my point in saying all this is that this was also because of the internet.
And I'm interested in your take on it. This was also a time of the kind of, I don't know the best way to describe it, but all the happiness nonsense that you're supposed, we're supposed to be happy, which I firmly disagree.
Today, my philosophy is not that I'm supposed to be happy. Happy is a, is a potential result of purpose and meaning in your life.
And if you can find purpose and meaning, then happiness is the result of those things. But, uh, you know, and guys like Jordan Peterson and, uh, Andy Frisella and Jocko Willink.
And there's a lot of people today who have kind of flipped this back on its head. But like that late 90s, early internet days of like, you know, we all should be happy in our career.
And we all should be entrepreneurs or you're not really doing anything with your life and all this. I felt like that created a lot of these feelings of 18 months in, you're going, well, geez, I don't, how come they haven't given me ownership in American Express yet? Like, how come I'm not on the board of directors? Like I've been here for 18 months.
I mean, I've pushed spreadsheets across my laptop for 18 months now. You know, how come they're not acknowledging my contribution to the company? and, you know, I just, it's just crazy where our minds work.

Yeah, I think, well, you touched on something about being happy. And there's all sorts of things coming out, you know, if you've read The Happiness Advantage, books like that, that, yeah, it's ass backwards.
And I think when I look back, you know, all the changes and again, kind of this journey that I think is very real for all of us, that if you're not careful, you kind of just get in this mundane mode of just kind of going through life. There's a self-awareness that has to happen of, and I think, you know, again, looking back at my career, I did not have, you know, the maturity or frankly, the level of accountability and self-accountability to, I was just pushing opportunity, not really thinking, is this what I'm passionate about? Right? So the whole idea of, you know, joy and fulfillment comes with purpose.
And I just didn't have a sense of that. So I think I was probably naturally susceptible to, you know, this cycle of just getting burned out into your point of like, all right, I've been busting my hump for two years, where, where's the reward? And it's like, that's just not, you know, how it, how it should work.
So it works, not how it works. So yeah, yeah, that's, and I do think, you know, as I've talked with, you know, guys like you and, you know, see what Seth Zaremba is doing and all the things happening around us.
I, that's what kind of occurred to me in the last few weeks when I'm like all right I got to get this concept down on paper because it's happening again yeah from my standpoint it feels like it's happening again what the world around us is really moving fast and yeah and changing and I think you know the other thing you know as I shared with you I was kind of going through this you know what the hell's wrong with me, kind of introspective process, really nothing. I do think there's a healthy level of paranoia.
And I, you know, I wrote in the blog, you know, only the paranoid survive when I got my hands on that book. It was really sort of, you know, a relief.
It was like, hey, there is, you know, there's nothing wrong with being paranoid to, you know, a healthy level of, man, you got to be aware of what's happening around you. And, you know, as we know, change is going to happen.
The question is, are you going to drive it or be a recipient of it? Yeah. And I think guys like you, and obviously Seth and some of the other agents like you that I've gotten to know, there are guys that are like, man, I'm going to be ahead of that curve, no matter what.
And that's just your personality, right? You and I have talked about comfort in risk, comfort in being on the bleeding edge. That's scary to a lot of people.
It's scary to think like, I can't take that risk. I don't want to go through that grind.
That's too much work. On the other hand, it sucks to like wake up one day and say, oh, someone's changed my world.
Now what do I do? So So you have to kind of realize, what do I do in the middle of all this stuff? I, you know, if I'm being very self-aware, I would say that what ruined both the Murray group and probably Agency nation and trusted choice to a certain extent is I, I got into a groove with both organizations and I became comfortable and entitled to a certain extent in both places. If I, you know, it doesn't mean I wasn't trying new things, but it's certainly I was not like, okay, I'll give you, I'll give you a very real world example.
I have a six and a four year old children, both boys. When we walk through a parking lot, I say to them, head on a swivel, keep your head up.
Always look, people are stupid. Don't be right.
Like you don't be stupid because they're going to do something stupid. These, these faceless proverbial people.
And we all know when you get into a parking lot, most people's IQ drops about 50 points. But so I just tell them like, I can't, if a car backs up, I might not be able to get to you fast enough.
So get your head up and look at the world around you because this is a place that you can die. And I, and I say that to a fourold and a six-year-old, not because I want to scare them and not because I'm trying to be apocalyptic, but I want them to know that like, yes, I'm your dad.
I'm going to do everything I can possibly do to make sure that you're not injured, but I can't, like you got to take ownership of your life. And I think what happens and what I, what really, one of the things that really resonated for me is what I think happens in that groove to rut standpoint is we, we start taking things for granted.
We kind of start, we start looking at our feet instead of looking at the horizon. And it's because we've just done the same thing so many times and become so good at it.
That's how we got into the groove that, that we start to put our head down a little more and we, you know, fiddle with our ear pods. And now some mom who's got three screaming kids isn't paying attention and she throws it in reverse and, and, and something bad happens.
It's not necessarily her fault. It's not necessarily your fault, but the bad things still happen and it could have been avoided with awareness.
And it's really, really difficult. But that was one of the things that I took away from it.
And I think it's an important lesson is you have to take ownership for your life. Yeah, no doubt.
You know, being entitled is a good way to look at it. And again, I went through it too.
You put in all this time, you put in all this blood, sweat and tears, like, clearly I'm owed something, right? And there's nothing wrong with the groove. It's like, even, you know, today, it's like, God, I hope today is easy.
I hope today I can do my four things and call it a day. Like, you go through that.
There's nothing wrong with that. you just get lulled into this sense of like, all right, I'm a master at this.
And, you know,

I mentioned it in my blog, like you can quickly get that sense of being entitled that this place would be screwed without me. I've built all this value.
I know how to do this. No one can do it my way.
And I remember I got, you know, I've mentioned some feedback or guidance I got from some of my bosses in the past. And one of them was be very careful when you think the company can't survive without you.
Yes. And she knew, like, I'll never forget that she was one of my best bosses.
And that was one of those direct moments I needed to hear that. Cause that's exactly what I was.
And she sensed it. You know, I had this, like you said, sense of entitlement because damn it, I put all this work into this.
I'm working harder than anybody. They'll never do anything to me.
You know good now. And that's a dangerous spot to be.
I think this is important. So I've been getting a lot of calls recently from producers and individuals around the country who are thinking about opening their own shop, which makes sense because I just opened mine and I have the podcast and I love it.
And I'm happy to take every one of those calls. And like I said, on the podcast a couple of days ago, I reserve Fridays in particular for those types of calls.
Today's a Friday. I do podcasts on Friday.
I do my non-revenue generating rogue stuff for the most part. I save it for Fridays.
So please don't take that as I don't want you to reach out. Please do.
Because I want to help. That's why I do the podcast in the first place.
But I've been getting a lot of these calls. And there are two main reasons for wanting to start your own agency.
One is they don't listen to me. They don't do the things that I want to do.
I want to be this kind of agency, bup, bup, bup, bup, bup, bup, bup, bup, bup. And I would classify those as, I don't know what the rest of the way to put this is.
Because I don't think it's necessarily coming from a bad place, but I feel like those are, I would say, they're not self-aware. They haven't really taken stock of the fact that that person that you're trashing, and look, I did it too.
I used to give my father-in-law such a hard time. Now I look at him as the best blessing I could have ever had as a, as a teaching me the business.
But when I was there, I used to, Oh, he won't do this. And he doesn't listen to me here and that, you know, whatever.
So, um, so I get it, but you know, my, I think people look at it and they're like, you know, if only I had this thing, or if they just bought this tool or they just went and got this market for me then I'd be able to do my job better and and you know I'm going to start my own agency so I can go do that okay I mean uh and then the other side is someone who says I have a vision for a lifestyle or a way of delivering the product or what you know I need to need to, you know, I want to support my family or I want to, you know, they have a real reason and a purpose or an opportunity is ending and it's time to think about what the actual next step is. Yep.
And so I think this concept in this, and it's why I wanted to have you on because I feel like a lot of people, a lot of people in our industry right now are having these thoughts. They've done something for a while.
They're feeling some sort of grinding because they see Nick Ayers posting crazy shit about Better Agency. And they're like, if only I had Better Agency, then all my wildest...
And look, Better Agency is a great tool to respond to the show. But they see these flashy toys and they, they think that the grass is greener.
And I guess why I really wanted to talk to you about is it might be, but it also might not be. And let's understand how we walk through, why you might be having these feelings and how we make this decision in a very healthy way versus just, you know, these bad old fat white guys won't give me the shit that I want.
And that's why I'm not, you know, making as much money as I want. Right? Well, yeah.
So two things. One, that's the proverbial, you're running from something or you're running to something, right? And that is the moment I can, I can say as well, where I realized I was being the ultimate victim.
And, you know, I, I talk about that all the time in our culture. Cause I, I lived that myself.
I was the proverbial victim. I wasn't happy.
And it was always someone else's fault. Right.
And it was like, oh, if I could be somewhere else, it'd be much better. And finally you have this realization of it is not them.
It is me. It was a hundred percent me.
I was not clear on what I wanted to be when I grew up. What was my passion? What was my purpose? And then, you know what? Just go get it.
And it's no one else's fault. You just go get it.
And I remember specifically having that moment of clarity. And as I refer to it respectfully with some of my peers now, that was the moment I fired myself from where I was.
When you realize I can't walk around blaming people for my woes anymore. I just can't.
And if there's something else better for me, it's now on me to go get it. So I think there's, there's that process.
And again, I speak to that respectfully, just because I know I went through it. I mean, I'll admit it a hundred percent, you know, I went through that victim cycle.
But then once you're this journey of, you know, the grind, the groove,

the rut and the grave, when you're doing what you're passionate about,

it's not a bad thing when you're doing it for something you're not passionate

about. It's a pain in the arse.
Like they're all,

there's all the emotions that come with it and entitlement and all that stuff.

But when you're doing what you love and that's the blessing I have now and the

job I have now and working with guys like you,

every day is a grind and the industry we're in and what it's going through, it's a grind. And some days, yes, that's a pain in the arse, but you know what? I wouldn't have it any other way.
I wouldn't have it any other way. I like that.
I like that. Cause, cause I feel I hadn't necessarily framed it that way in my head, but I think you're a hundred percent right is the idea that you probably know, or, or, or there's a good chance that you're properly aligned.
If it feels like a grind every day, because it does, because I, I love what I do. It's hard as shit.
And I hate the day. There are days when I get done and I'm like, I hated today.
Today was the worst. I just, I hated the day, but I still love what I do.
I love the insurance business. I had someone

ask me the other day, or just, or it was a comment. I'm so, I'm still surprised.
This was his exact words. I'm still surprised you chose starting an agency over starting a marketing company.
Right. Which I think is a fair comment if people were to watch me from the outside.
and the reason, and I don't even know that I've ever said this on the podcast before, but the reason that I didn't start a marketing agency is because it would have been too easy. And I don't mean easy like the work would have been easy.
I just mean, I know marketing. Like I know it cold.
I can talk about it in my sleep. Yeah.
I, I want to be challenged in different ways to get better. Like I don't want to just be a marketing guy and there's nothing wrong.
I don't mean them. I just literally just knocked every person who's a marketing person.
I don't mean it that way. Please don't take that that way.
But like I've done, I've been chief marketing officer. I've done, I've played that role.
I've worked that process. Like there was a next step.
And I also have a vision for what an

independent agency can be in the future. And I wanted to make that come to fruition.
I have a

very clear vision of what that is. And, and I needed that challenge, right? Sure.
Do I hate

setting up freaking phone systems and connecting this stupid service to this stupid service? And

Thank you. And I needed that challenge, right? Sure, do I hate setting up freaking phone systems and connecting this stupid service to this stupid service? And why isn't my text messaging working today? And all I wanna do is write this account, but this underwriter's having a bad day.
This is all the stuff that makes you nuts, but it also is really challenging and it's a grind every day. And I think that's, you know, I feel like that's a really good way of positioning.
That was a really long winded way of saying, I think your concept of, if you find yourself in a groove, that might be the first trigger you need to do some self-assessment. 100%.
Pick your head up. And, you know, I was thinking as you were talking there too, thing I I now get in a habit of doing is I walk through this concept with new hires because who are we hiring if we're in this world and we're we're I'm in this company trying to do things and keep up with you know guys like you and the tech companies in the industry because if we don't we're not going to be relevant and that window of opportunity feels like it just gets and smaller by the day.
And you wake up every day and you're like, okay, where's that surprise coming from? And should I pay attention to it? Should I not? But nevertheless, I need to pick my head up and make sure. And that's disruptive.
And when you're leading people, you and I've talked about leadership styles when you lead people and the impact of that to some people who don't have maybe the tolerance or capacity to handle this ever-changing like, okay, guys, we're doing something new today. And it was like, well, shit, you just entered to do something new last week.
So, and I haven't figured that out yet. Now we're onto the next new thing.
Some people aren't wired that way, right? So you got to be somewhat careful and empathetic to they're not going to accelerate this process as fast as guys like you and I might. And two, there's nothing wrong with people who, you know, like routine, they like, I know when I show up today, I'm going to do my 10 things, and I'm going to do it really well.
But I know it's just going to be those 10 things. And that's for me, there's nothing wrong with that.
But on the same token, you know, that that's not going to get you there. You know, if you're in this for the long haul, because you become replaceable at that point.
And one of the things that this is going to feel draconian, but the more, the deeper I get into business, I feel this way. I feel stronger about this in whatever it means.
Um, I just, I, every, when you like once a week, I tweet in lowercase letters, personal responsibility. And I tweet that because if there is anything that I value in another human and anything that I judge my, myself more on is personal responsibility, both moments where I take it and how much, and you know, I, in moments when I don't take personal responsibility, when I find myself going, geez, this, you know, like I just bitched before about the underwriter.
It's not the underwriter's fault. It's his or her job to make this decision.
And they made a decision. That's not their fault that they made a decision on what they thought was in the best interest of, you know, whatever their job or their company or, you know, whatever they're trying

to do.

And, and I'm trying to get to, and I will never will being the kind of person who takes

a hundred percent personal responsibility for, for, for, for everything that happens in my life. Good, bad, ugly.
It's my fault. It's my, I have to deal with the repercussions.
And I think a lot of the nonsense that we deal with in the world today, or what I view as nonsense, is people trying to pass off that responsibility to others. That's not a political statement because I think this happens across the aisle up, up and down.
I think that there is this, I think people start to take, and when I see young producers who ask me about starting an agency and they're coming, I can tell they're approaching starting their own agency. I'm doing air quotes, even though no one gets me starting their own agency, um, from a place of victimhood and not from that.
That's the key for me. If I hear in your voice, I'm taking responsibility for my life.
And that responsibility includes me. I want to write agribusiness.
I want to be the biggest, baddest agribusiness writer in the, in the of Oklahoma and I want to do it my way and I believe I have a good that is a really that's that's you're going to go out you're going to get the markets you're going to deal with the pain you're not going to pay yourself for three years that's taking personal responsibility you know that other side of the conversation they won't give me this so I can't be here so I'm just going to go start my own agency so that I can do that. You are going to fail because you are not, you know, and that's a big part of this thing.
A hundred percent. There's a, and I don't get paid for this plug, trust me, but you'd love a book called The Oz Principle.
And I reference it in my blog. I came, and this is what, you know, changed my life personally, changed me professionally.
That moment I mentioned to you where I fired myself from the previous role. And I say that proverbially, I didn't really walk in and fire myself, but I made the commitment that I was going to take my life and my career in a different direction.
The Oz principle talks about exactly that. And, you know, the concept in general, and this is what got me thinking differently and really recognizing my first step into accountability was I really needed to rehabilitate myself and my attitude and how I viewed problems and how I viewed others.
This concept of above the line behavior, above the line and below the line. And it's exactly that.
It's super simple. Below the line, you're a victim.
It's everyone else's fault. You're finger pointing.
You're going to wait and see. I talk about it in the, you know, from the groove to the rut.
That's what happens. You get in this very complacent, it's not my job, it's everyone else's fault.
It's easy to finger point excuses, all those things. And when, you know, when I referenced that point in my career where it's like, all right, I got to change, change my own attitude, my own behavior, and I got to change the direction of my life.
I'm like, that is me. Like, it's really humbling to read that and go, ah, shit, that's me.
And I don't want to be that guy. Above the line says, man, they're problems.
The world is flawed. Humans are flawed.
We are going to run into problems and challenges. The question is, what are you going to do about it? And so you ask that question, what more can I do to achieve the results we need? That's their kind of, and when you refocus on that question, and by the way, like, it is okay to be a victim, you just can't stay there.
And they really kind of harp on that. Because things I'm, yeah, things happen in our life that are out of our control.
That's, that's a good point. That's not what I'm trying to say.
No, exactly. Yeah.
Well, and too, I get very fixated on it, because and this is actually, you know, the book kind of cautions against this, and I fall into this. When you go through that journey personally, and you realize to your point of how empowering that is, like, but I'm still capable, and I'm still capable of taking action.
And I'm still capable of getting to where I need to go, it may have to be a different course or through different people, and that's fine. But keep going, as opposed to being a victim in the moment.
It cautions you like to not be too extreme. And I do.
And my team gets on me about it. I do get too extreme because once you live through that and you can see the benefits of that, not only do you personally, but with people around you, it's become such a high expectation.
To your point, when you listen, you can start really picking up on, man, when I hear excuses, man, alarms start going off and I start crawling in my skin. But that's not fair either because I can be a victim just as fast as everyone else.
The deal is how do you coach people to that above the line? But okay, now what do we need to do to get the results we need and get refocused on looking forward and being action oriented as opposed to backward looking and blame and fault and woe is me. I think that's an excellent lesson or point for leaders who have these younger producers who are giving them some trouble or some flack about their position.
Because I get that feedback sometimes too, and I'm sure you do as well. It's so easy to be judgmental when you hear excuses or the victimhood mentality from other people.
And we have to be compassionate at the same time. So there's, these are opportunities, I think, to and I think Sydney has spoke about this in public.
So I don't think I'm giving anything up. I used to give her, I used to literally lay into her when I heard her taking a victimhood mentality because one, I knew the kind of rock star that she actually was.
And I wanted her to be everything that she had told me she wanted to be. And, uh, and, and, you know, she's dominating at neon and be atomic.
So I'm so happy for her, but, um, but there is, there's a fine line between, um, hearing excuses and turning and judging that person and kind of saying, ah, they're never, you know, they're, you know, kind of being turned off by them and saying, I hear your excuses. I don't agree with them, but I'm going to help you work through them because I want you to get to the other side.
I think those are two different mentalities. And we have a lot of, unfortunately, I think we have a lot of agency owners who are unwilling to come down to that mentorship level.
They just want to say, Hey, I, I walked in the snow barefoot to school seven miles for the first 47 years of my life and you should too.

So, and it's like, that's not, that's ridiculous. I, I, you know, and I think that's where the

disconnect happens. I think when you have someone who is, who's coming to the business and they

start to get that victimhood mentality or that excuse making mentality, and then they're not

paired with a leader who will come down and help mentor them out of that. It's really difficult to be self-aware enough, or it's rare to be self-aware enough to pull yourself out.
I wasn't, I've had, you know, I've had to have people, you know, punch me in the face with a sack of crap and say, hey, look, you're, you're making excuses. This is as much your fault as it is anyone else's.
And, um, you know, it wasn special power. I don't.
I fell into it twice this year. Once when I got fired from the fitness company and once when COVID hit after I just started my business.
For months at a time, after both those incidents, which are inside of a 12-month cycle from where we are, I have found myself in that pity party, woe is me place and had to dig myself back out. But that's because I was mentored and how to do that, to register it.
And I think a lot of people just haven't been taught those lessons. 100%.
And as you know, for guys like you, running a business is a lonely gig sometimes. And who holds you accountable and finding a peer group, and I certainly have it with, you know, the agents I get to work with and who are, you know,

owners of Indium.

Like you said, sometimes you need to hear it

from an outside source and it hits you between the eyes

and it's hard.

And, you know, you kind of sit

and I just went through it last week.

So I give the feedback and, you know, it's like,

what do you mean?

I'm not a victim.

That's not me.

I'm the one preaching about victimhood

and I'm preaching about accountability. Like that's, and then, you know, you sleep on it a day and you wake up the next day and you're like, hell shit.
Yes, I was the victim in the moment and I needed to hear that. And that's good.
You need people around you that can do that for you. And to your point, now the hard part is as people leaders.
And as you know, in our model, we're kind of responsible for both ends of a transaction.

And you mentioned Jocko Willink and Extreme Ownership, my next favorite book. That's another good, like, I talk to my team all the time about extreme ownership, just own it, just own it and solve it, because we too can fall into that mode of, well, it was the carrier, it was the underwriter.
You know, we throw up our hands like, oh, if the agent only got back to me, that's the stuff that makes my hair on the back of my neck rise because that's going below the line. I'm a victim of my circumstances and woe is me.
And it's like, no, agents won't tolerate that. Carriers won't tolerate it.
And we, of all people, shouldn't tolerate that. But to your point, I've been through that personally, still on that journey of being good at it, but not many people have.
So I have to remind myself, all right, pump the brakes. Don't be so critical because I will get there.
I, my, again, my team gets on me because I'm hyper about it and sometimes too critical about it. And then people can shut down.
So like you said, you got to listen, you got to be empathetic, but ultimately you got to teach them how to like change your mindset, change your attitude, find a path to solving a problem. Cause that's all people care about.
People don't want excuses, especially in our world. They don't care that it was the underwriter's fault or that no one cares.
They just want to know we're working on it and we're owning it and we're getting you guys a solution. Yeah.
That's, that's hard work. I mean, we're humans, we're flawed.
That's hard work. Yeah.
Another really good, a really good book for that that's in line with with Jocko Willink's discipline equals freedom. And the dichotomy of leadership is another tremendous book that he wrote as well.
His kids books are actually really good too. I have one of them.
I don't have both. But the, and I read the kids books to the kids, though adults could read them as well.
Yeah. They're that good.
I mentioned Andy Frisella before. He's got a really popular podcast, Real AF.
He curses a lot if that offends you, just so people know. But he wrote a book called 75 Hard.
it talks about a program that he created called 75 hard i've been following it for a while um i did it for three days and then wanted a beer at the end of the week so i dropped out um but i try to but but the mentality that he has the the it's all about mental toughness and i actually um i a couple of podcasts ago about how I do these like cold calling aphers, uh, affirmations. And one of the affirmations is I am mentally tough.
And I'll write that like two or three times and I'll repeat it back. I am mentally tough because the truth is like, I love carbs and bread and shitty stuff for me.
I love it like people people look at me and they'll say like, Oh, you're, you're thin or whatever. Um, and I don't mean that I'm not trying to humble brag there.
I've just had people say that I have the propensity to throw 10 pounds on like that. Like it is freaking hard work for me.
Like if I see a piece of bread, I want to eat that shit and it's tough. Like I get these and sugar and I just, I have that in me and, and I have to be mentally tough.
It gives me headaches. I get, I get inflammation.
I get joint pain. I try to anti-inflammatory diet.
Um, you know, I have the propensity to go down rabbit holes that aren't work related. I love to learn and I'll use that as an excuse to not actually do the work.
And, and there's all these things, right? Like I'll take a call from someone who I shouldn't take a call from at a time that I shouldn't take it because I like talking to people. That's the excuse for not getting the work done.
And, you know, I, this idea of mental toughness, it is the heart. It's the, it's so hard.
It is so hard, but I just can't find, you know, whether it's David Goggins, Jocko Willink, you know, Andy Frisella, some of the stuff Rogan talks about, or the people, like when you line all these people up together, right? Or in some of the best producers that I know, some of the best agency owners that I know, you know, even if they're not running 100 mile ultra marathons, you know, when you take the skill set that makes them successful in their agency, it is this idea that they do not cut corners, they apply that they hold themselves to a set of standards that create success. And they just don't compromise around them.
And it is it I find it very tough. I don't, you know, willpower, I'm not granted a huge amount

of natural willpower. I just don't have it.
I have to work at it. And, but I do think this is

one of the defining characteristics and I really struggle. And I, and I think that's what you've

outlined here in this blog post. Um, I struggle with finding something else.
I really do. I

struggle with finding a different path. Like I don't want anyone to give me anything.
I want to work for it, or, you know, trade services, or whatever, you know, but it, that's how we get there. It's that hard work.
Right. And I think, like you've talked about, when you have a propensity to learn new stuff, I'll say it this way, maybe, and maybe I've got it too, maybe that's a little bit of ADD.
And I don't know, I'm not a doctor, but it's like, and that's not a bad thing. Like the capacity and the inherent interest to like learn something new is a good thing.
there's just uh and i go through it myself and again with the world we live in and all the newness stuff all the bright objects out there and it's like oh should i be doing that and i

should i be doing that leads to a lack of focus but what's the balance between being aware being creative uh accepting new new things but then being totally distracted yeah or being so focused and so disciplined and so regimented and in your kind of groove and routine that you're so narrow focused, you're irrelevant. And that's, I find that a struggle with me because I am creative and I like new stuff and I like to dabble and I like to learn by myself.
I like to go through that kind of muddy, messy process of figuring crap out. I'm not afraid of that.
Although that might lead to a bunch of wasted time and maybe I should have been doing something else, but I've learned something new and, um, that leads to something else. So I myself struggle with how do you balance all that, you know? And I think that's the, I think, I think that's where we come back to this, to, to, to, to the article that you wrote and, and that having the self-awareness to understand when you're in the groove, which to me, it's, it's not necessarily a bad thing, right? It's only if you, if you do not take the time to, to, to have self-awareness, to reevaluate, to say, okay, I'm starting to do good, which is, which is a good thing.
Um, but if I ever want to be great, I have to get to this point. Or otherwise, good just turns into, oh, you know, I've been a B-minus player for five years here.
How come I don't have ownership in the agency? And the agency owners are going, because you've been a frigging B-minus player for the last five years here. That's why you don't own part of this agency.
And that disconnect is very real. And I think that's, if I had to evaluate why I left the Murray Group, I think it was because of this sense of entitlement and a lack of self-awareness over the value that I was bringing.
I think that I brought a lot of value, but I certainly think I could have done a lot better if I was self-aware. I wasn't.
I was a cocky young prick who valued himself way more than probably I was worth. And I think, unfortunately, a lot of my peers of that age, that 28 to 37-year-old range where we're male or female, you're starting to kind of feel your oats a little bit.
You're, you're, you're starting to understand who you are and what you're good at. And, and your life is settled in a little bit and you're, and you're pushing forward.
And I think it's important that we take a step and go, am I just like a solid B player? Or am I that a player who really does deserve to make it to the next level? And, and this concept of mental toughness and ownership and personal responsibility, I think are, what are the difference between the, the A and B players? Cause I know a players that have no natural given skills. They're just, but they're absolute positive a players.
And I think, and all of them have these similar characteristics. They don't make excuses.
They don't cut corners. They're focused on what gets results.
And they seem like kind of trivial, wishy-washy things, but they really are the things. Yeah.
I think, and Ryan, you and I've talked about our baseball backgrounds and just being an athlete. And, you know, there's two, one, you're inherently competitive.
So you don't strike me as someone who's just going to be complacent and kick your feet up and say, you know, I've made it and I'm riding them out. I think when you have that competitive streak just keeps you kind of on that edge.
So there's that. And again, I think about being healthily, health, healthy, having a healthy level of paranoia is a good thing.
And being aware and being competitive is, I see it in you, I see it in a handful of these other, like you said, we're seeing a trend of producers spinning off from these agencies. You've nailed it.
You've probably talked to all of them going, but I want to hang my own shingle because I want to do my own thing. And as we talk to those guys, they're all competitive.
Like you said, they've got a vision of something better for themselves. They've got a, an ability to be disciplined and maybe they're still figuring that out.
But I think that's, that's the difference is they're not going to tolerate being a B player. They always wanted to be an A player, but guys like you and them, they all know for, if I'm going to be an A player, I've got to do it my way.
And there's nothing wrong with that. Yeah.
You know, wholly agree. So I want to take these last few minutes that we have together.
Um, and, uh, I want to give an enormous, uh, plug and shout out to you and the work that you and your team are doing. Um, and you know, I, so for anyone who's listening that doesn't know, I am a member of Indium, very proudly so.
There are many good network, market access, whatever we want to call them out there. But if there's a list, Indium is right at the top, right? I mean, it's going to be right for some people, not right for others, but for the people it's right for, you guys are one of the.
And I feel honored to be part of it. Um, and you know, I think one of the things I actually got up in, in, in, I got on Jason Cass the other day because he put out an article or he did a podcast where he was talking about the growth of an agency and it's a wonderful series.
You should absolutely listen to it. But one of the things he said in there was, um, he was actually, uh was actually, and I've talked to Cass about this, so this isn't like you need to run over and tell him that Hanley's bashing him or anything.
But he made a point or insinuated in a certain extent that network market access aggregator type business models weren't necessarily in the best interest. Now, I know he wasn't talking about all of them.
He actually was not very coyly talking about one very specific version of that model. But my point to him that I made was, dude, not everyone knows who you're talking about.
Like, I know exactly who you're talking about. Not everyone does.
And the other side of it is, I don't know that we can do this alone anymore. I think there was a time when it was very, very possible if you got the right markets at the right time and did good business, you could be a true, wholly independent direct contract agency and operate and be profitable and happy and everything's good.
I think there was a time when that was both possible and prudent. I don't think that that time is now anymore.
I think yes, it's great to have direct markets. Absolutely, positively, it is.
But I also think we need each other. And so everyone listening, I have zero financial interest.
Indium is not a sponsor of the show. So and I'm not saying you should even join Indium.
I just want people to know that I have found being part of Indium, having them as a, you know, I use them in my own specific way. Other people use you guys in different ways.
For what I need Indium for, I could not be as successful as I am to this point without them. And I think we need each other.
And I think finding the right network or whatever, how do you guys even refer to yourself? Yeah. An agency network.
Agency network. Finding the right agency network is part of the future.
And I think it'll take all ways, shapes, and forms. I think we'll find these little five agency clusters that are just this little thing that they created.
I think there'll be big, I think obviously SAA and all their master agencies will still be around. I think there'll be Indiums, there'll be CLIs, there'll be, you know, all these different things.
But I think for a long time, and then I'll be quiet. Um, there was this concept of, if you had to join, um,

a network, you had done something wrong. You had messed up somewhere down the road.
And this was, they were bailing you out. Right.
You know what I mean? It would be like huge news. X agency joins this network and everyone go, Oh, I wonder what happened.
He must be having an affair or something. And, and, and, and I'm glad I feel like those days are gone.
Now it's more like, Hey, what club am I going to do? It's more like a country club. Hey, which country club am I going to join? You know, I mean, I'm kind of looking at this one.
I'm looking at this one. You know, I really like the spa over here.
And, um, and I'm happy for that because I think what it does is it allows Ryan Evans and it allows Rob Bowen and it allows some of these other guys to have opportunities to write business and grow the agency in the exact way that they want to, that they didn't have before. And I just wanted to say that I appreciate you.
I appreciate our relationship that we've developed and I just thank the world of your organization. So I wanted to say that publicly on air for everyone.
Man, thanks, Ryan. I really appreciate that.
I didn't ask you to do that. But I really, really appreciate it.
And likewise, I feel very fortunate to be in this organization that works with agencies like you and being led, you know, as you and I have always talked about being owned and led by independent agents keeps me honest. You know, there's just a certain, like we've talked about level of accountability when I get to work with a group of agents who have to take our message out to the street, to their peers and saying, Hey, what are you guys doing? And it's always got to be agent friendly.
We've always, we're never a silver bullet. You know, I kind of sometimes raise my eyebrows when people talk about, here's what agents need every agent needs x and it's like as you as you know it's like no if I've learned anything to your point of independent agents they're all different they all need something different they've got a different attitude or different vision and a group like us thankfully and again I'm blessed to be doing this it's like I get to talk to agents all over the country that need something different that makes makes it interesting.
And back, you know, to the grind every day is a grind. Cause I do something new and interesting with someone from another state, another, you know, part of the country.
That's, that's, it's really cool to be able to do that. So, um, I appreciate that plug and I appreciate you having me on today.
So that was awesome. Awesome, man.
Well, obviously, uh, nothing but the best to you and we we'll talk again soon, I'm sure. But appreciate you.

And appreciate everyone for listening.

We're going to get out of here.

Awesome.

Thanks, Ryan.

Cheers. Yeah, me.
Take it. Yeah, me.
Yeah, me. Take it.
Yeah, me. Yeah, me.
Oh You go fuck yourself with your fat fucking ass.

Take it easy. Thank you.
Do you want to have a few drinks and smoke a joint bubbles?

Yes. Yes.
Thank you. Take it.
Take it. Take it.
Take it. Take it.
Take it. Take it.
Take it. Take it.
Take it. Take it.
Take it. Take it.
Take it. Take it.
Take it. Take it.
Take it. Take it.
Take it. Take it.
Take it. Take it.
Take it. Take it.
Take it. Take it.
Take it. Take it.
Take it. Take it.
Take it. Take it.
Take it. Take it.
Take it. Take it.
Take it. Take it.
Take it. you Thank you.
Do you want to have a few drinks and smoke a joint, Bubbles?

Yes.

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