RHS 068 - The Great and Powerful Chris Paradiso

in a crude laboratory in the basement of his home

Hello everyone and welcome back to the show. Today we have someone who has been a friend, a mentor, someone I've looked up to, someone who I have tried in many ways to model my agency after on the show and he doesn't do a lot of podcasts and to have him take time out of what I know is a busy day to spend time with us.
It's a true honor to share with you today, Chris Paradiso. Before we get to Chris, just a couple quick announcements.
Head on over to ParadisoPresents.com. That's ParadisoPresents.com and pick up a copy of The Last Agent Standing magazine.
You're going to get experience, insights, articles, thought leadership from some of the best and brightest in our industry and all the proceeds from the magazine go to charity. This is the fifth edition that Chris has put out.
Each edition keeps getting more dynamic, keeps getting thicker,

and you won't be disappointed in what you get in exchange for a few bucks that go to a good cause.

Also, I want to give a shout out to Tarmika.

That's T-A-R-M-I-K-A dot com.

T-A-R-M-I-K-A dot com.

You may have heard of Tarmika.

You may have seen some of the posts in social media. You may have heard a few people talking about it.
I certainly talk about Tarmica a lot. You do not want to miss this part of the insurance digital revolution.
Tarmica is an API-based commercial lines comparative rater. They're also going to be

coming out with personal lines. And you may be saying to yourself, Ryan, there's plenty of

raters out there. know why you know why do I need another rater why do I need to consider another rater and the answer is the workflow and the apis now you've heard the term apis and there are competitors of tarmica who will say they have APIs, they don't.
What APIs give you is exact numbers. They give you real bindable quotes that you can take to the bank when you're talking to a client on the phone.
I mean, that's exactly how I use this tool. When small business and main street accounts call in or I get them on the phone,

I am literally just answering the questions inside of Tarmica as I'm with them on the phone

and getting quotes back on the phone.

I mean, Tarmica makes small commercial profitable.

Tarmica makes small commercial profitable.

You do not want to miss this tool.

Go to T-A-R-M-I-Kmika.com today. Sign up, get the demo, know what they're all about.
I'm telling you, there's a lot of agents starting to circle around that small business world that used to just be heavy personal lines and it's there for you. This makes small commercial profitable.
Go to tarmika.com-M-I-K-A dot com, sign up, get the demo, and just change the game for your agency. So that's what I do.
You can do it. You don't have to do it.
If you don't do it, it just gives more opportunity to the agents that are using Tarmico. So, all right.
With that, let's get on to Chris Paradiso. Yo, dude.

How you doing? Clowning the pavement or what? Trying to, man. Trying to make that paper.
Yeah, that's all we're all trying to do, right? Yeah. I'm just tired of dealing with State Farm trying to insure people at $200,000 when they're, you know, you ain't got no $200,000 houses dollar houses around here you know three thousand square foot 198 for coverage a you just shake your head saying and a hundred thousand liability not really just dealt with this yesterday so literally the same exact thing yeah is it state farm again um yeah state farm and all Allstate.
In Allstate, yeah. He's with State Farm, got quotes from Allstate, and he's buying a house, and I had his auto with State Farm, and he's like, yeah, they're quoting me at $465, and this is like a 3,000-square-foot house built in the 1800ss, two family.
And it's like, there's double everything in the house. Like it's this huge colonial that got, so all the estimators are coming in at 760 at a minimum.
And like you try to talk to him and he's looking at you with eyes crossed. And I'm like, dude, I've done this like 10,000 times.
Like this is not a 400 and this is, you're not going to get half your house back. Um, finally I said to him, so are you buying this? Are you expecting the income that you get from the rental side of this house to help you pay for your mortgage? Yeah.
It's the only way I'll be able to afford it. Okay.
So if there's a, if there's a fire, you're not going to have that anymore. It'll be over, but you'll still have the same mortgage.
How do you feel about that? And you know, he's quote unquote thinking about it, but you know, some people you're better off letting run. Yeah.
There's a part of me that I'll say the Ryan of working for the Murray group would have gone, Hey man, do what you gotta do. Call me back if you want it.
The starving Ryan of rogue risk days is like, bro, please just listen to me for the love of God. Yeah.
And it's funny. Cause I just, uh, you know, this is a guy that I've known for some time.
He's a foreigner, a real good dude. And we insure his FedEx contracting unit.
And I shake my head saying, hey, dude, do what you got to do. We got beat on the auto.
You've had accident after accident. We got, you know, they don't run credit.
Unfortunately, we're 200 bucks more on the house. You're saying you're saving $190.
You're underinsured by $200,000.

The liability at ours is $600.

You're at $100.

Your hurricane deductible's at $14,000.

We're at zero.

Our deductible's at $1,000.

They're at $5,000.

I mean, it's just, it's black and white.

I'm like, dude, to save $191,

you're going to cut all that coverage.

It's crazy.

I said, but you got to do what you got to do.

You know, the hard part is- Is it worth it? Is it worth $100? It isn't. Well, and then that is the person who when there's a loss, and they're coming out of their pocket, 14 grand, because there's a storm hits Connecticut again, is going to go insurance is a scam this.
Yeah, why would you want you know that? And it's like, if you want your stuff back, you know, what I say to all my friends when they get on, you know, because every once in a while, I don't know if you have this, but your non-insurance friends will start to bitch at you about insurance, right? Like, hey, Chris, why do they da-da-da-da-da? And I'm like, bro, if you have a fire in your house, I'm not coming over to fix the fire.

I'm not doing that.

I'm going to be sad for you.

Like you can come over and have a meal at my house, but I'm not grabbing my hammer and

we're not raising the house again.

That's like, that's not happening.

Like, I don't even know how to do that.

The only entity that's going to make sure your house exists again is the insurance company.

That's it.

That's the only entity. No one, the bank's not coming to help you.
Your parents aren't coming to help you. It's fact.
And it drives me nuts because then they, because they look at you and they're like, Whoa, that makes sense. But, uh, Hey, can you give me some cheaper rates? I'm like, bro, I get it.
But you know, what do you do? You can't do, you know, a know, a little different for me than it is for you. I get where you're from.
I was there and I would have fought and fought and fought. And I'm at the point, I'm like, dude, for a hundred dollars, go, you know, you got to go, go.
You want to save the money? I'm not going to, you know, and I think he'll either say, that's crazy. You're going to just let me go.
Yeah. Because it's crazy that you're going to cut all that coverage for $191.
You're smarter than that. Yeah.
Yeah. It's hard because there's a part of me that says doing that for that.
Like, let's say you were to match that for that person. Let's say you were to raise all the deductibles and do all the stuff and get that $190 back for him by, by, by matching all the coverages, even though, you know, it's not right for them.
I feel like there's a big part of me that says like, we're not doing our job by doing that. So, you know, I had this happen and this is the last, we don't need to tell war stories because everyone listening has heard all, has experienced this a thousand times, but I had this woman, it's, I wrote her, um, uh, guard has a homeowner's insurance policy in New York now.
And it's, it's a good policy. It's solid.
I heard that. Yeah.
It's, it's super solid. So, um, quarter up and, uh, I never, ever quote a homeowner's insurance policy, less than $500,000 in liability.
And if I can get it, I'll just put a million on because most of the time we're talking about dollars, right? Like literally dollars. So, so the difference between 500,000 and 300,000 in liability was 12 bucks.
Yeah. That's, that's what we, that's what we see.
Right. A dollar a month.
So she comes back to me. She is beating the crap out of me to for she wants 300 000 liability she's going 500 000 is too much i go too much for what i go it's a dollar a month what does it matter to you as why if i actually said to her it sounds like it's offending you that i'm that i want you to take five like she's you're taking it as like a person.
I'm like, I'm just, if you have a really bad day, it's a dollar, it's a dollar a month. Nope.
Had to have her initial and sign off and everything because, uh, and that's the beauty of like e-sign is you can put the initials right by the coverage amount. Um, we do the same.
I couldn't believe it. A dollar a month.
She's like, Nope, I nope I want 300,000 liability I'm like I had a guy um a prison guard his son was senior went to school he toughened up um ended up being a now still a ranger but um went to school he was just tired of his bully and uh bully picked on him on the wrong day and he cleaned his clock and the bully broke his collarbone and sued him. And the homeowners covered all the legal costs and medical, and it was over just a shy under $500,000.
Now, back then, we had them with Harford where they had the full $100,000 where it automatically doubled. So it was $800,000.
We had plenty of coverage. But there's a perfect example of that person at $300000.
Uh, they would have been on over a hundred plus thousand out of their own pocket. And whoever thought a homeowners would cover your kid who went to school and, and tag the bully, but it does.
The, the, you know, that's, that's always the crazy part is the expanse of things that a homeowner, that the liability on your homeowners actually covers like the expansive scenarios and the it's such an afterthought but really every horrible thing i shouldn't say every the vast majority of horrible things that can happen that can happen in your everyday life are covered by your homeowners liability and people just just completely disregard it You know, you come across these all state and state farm policies with 100,000 in liability and nothing against our captive brothers and sisters that do this work, but you're better than that. You know what I mean? When I'm done.
If you want to jump on with the other Stephanie for now. Cool.
Well, dude, I didn't have you to come on here and tell horror stories of people trying to buy insurance from us. I'm, you know, we, you invited me and I was very honored to participate in a in-person mastermind a few weeks ago.
And I just thought that that was absolutely tremendous. And there were so many interesting topics that came out of there.
And you being the kind of spearheading, I know it was Tom Larson's idea initially, but you kind of spearheaded getting everyone together and had it out at Tarmica's headquarters. And we just had some tremendous agents there.
And I left there going, And, you know, there's so many things that you have your hands in. And as your agency has evolved and your career has evolved, there's so, so much of this industry that you've been a part of.
I just wanted to get you on here and kind of pepper you with a bunch of different topics and share some of your perspectives, because at least from where I sit, you are

really dialed in to where we're going as an industry. And, and I just wanted to also it doesn't mean I'm going to be right, but I hope so.
Well, so one of the caveats to this show is being right has nothing to do with the things that we say. So that's not a, that's not a precursor you've been right about a lot.
Yeah, I think it's all who you surround yourself with, you know, very fortunate to have some incredible people who are quiet behind the scenes, you would never know, like the Bob McCools. The average person doesn't know the average agent doesn't know.
But those that know Bob I mean mean he's it's like Frank Setner you know the guy is just you know dialed in with with what's going on and that's that's the key is can you surround yourself with people like Mike Stansberry another guy who's got a big stick but he's quiet about it you know there's there's there's some big sticks that are very quiet that just tremendous minds. And, you know, that's the key is how do you get the right people in the room? And that's one of the things that I want to do something out there at Mike's office.
Cause Mike loves that getting people like that together. And Mike is tremendous out in Tennessee.
There's different minds. I think work differently from the East coast all the way over to the West Coast.
It's just so different, right? Yeah. I know.
I have a couple guys that I talked to that are on the West Coast about their business. And one, the country that is now of California that has basically separated itself from the United States at this point and operates as its own independent organization.

Just the whole methodology, the pace, the thought process is definitely different.

And then that extends throughout the Midwest, which is its own region. You go down South, completely different.
And I think that's one of the things that when I come across agents that are struggling in general, right, there's some standard stuff that we all struggle with. I mean, you got to write business, you got to get in front of people.
And that stuff seems pretty easy to figure out, you know, if you apply yourself. But the agents that kind of hit that plateau and can't get past it, it seems to me that a lot of that stems from staying in their cocoon.
They don't interact with their agents. They're not reaching out into different communities or different parts of the country.
So how, like, how have you started to do that? I mean, we've known each other for 10, 10, at least 10, maybe more years. And, you know, I've watched your network continue to grow and the people you've surrounded yourself with, like, one, is that just natural to you? Or, you know, did you get advice from someone or whatever? And then how have you kind of grown your network over time? Like what kind of things do you look for? How do you do it? Well, the interesting thing is, you know, I, I, I would say Bob McCool has been an, an influencer to me.
Bob had always said, if you do one thing every single year, besides go outside the industry to get valuable information from running your business to marketing and things of that sort. But the one thing that you can do is get into at least two agencies a year.
Take those one day, each two days, whatever you can get, and really see how other agencies run because everyone runs so vastly different. What I think we don't do well is really invite agencies in and start a group in the senses that we're sharing from step to step to step and then fine tuning things and listen, hey, where, you know, you were in here saying, hey, but, you know, this one step, what if you thought about doing it this way?

This is how we do it.

And I think that's probably the key component

on extending my relationships is asking others

if it would be okay if I could come and spend a day

and kind of pick the brains.

And I think there's two things I like to do.

Number one thing is really to find out

what you did wrong, Ryan.

I don't care who it is. Every agency owner has done things wrong.
To find out what you did wrong, and do you have a solution of maybe why and what you would change? Because I think we all end up making very similar mistakes. And why should we not ask to learn from others? And I think, You know, Bob had always said, make sure you ask to find out what successful people do when they fail.
You know, how they failed, why they failed, because successful people are usually going to realize and look in the mirror and say, I failed because of this, this, and this. That can save you all, you know, what I know at 47, I only wish i knew at 27 because i would have changed a lot of things um and grown my agency a lot faster unfortunately i made those mistakes right so i think that's the key on on building uh relationships within the industry is you know really giving back and you know you can't just ask Ryan, can I come to your agency? You also got invite and invite and invite.
And I can't tell you how many hundreds of agencies have spent from one day to three days in the agency. And I always feel it's, you know, a good relationship is going to be a give and take.
And I just been able to meet some incredible agents who become extremely close friends, you know? So I think it's key to be able to give, give, give. Do you think that agents today are more open to those kind of conversations? I do.
I do. I think the agency today isn't the agency 10 years ago where everybody thought we were all competitors.
We're not competing against each other, man. We're competing against direct writers.
We're competing against the billion dollar marketing ads from Geico and State Farm and even the progressives. That's, you know, unfortunately, we're competing against the direct writers who have billions of dollars.
You and I, Ry, we could get our top 100 friends and we probably still couldn't come up with a billion

dollar marketing budget. So I think we have more to share and I think there's more open minds today.
And, you know, of a recent thing that we just did, right? We had 12, 14, 15 agencies in a room. We shared and we were all what people would say as competitors because we were all within three states.
Yeah. Maybe four states, but most of us are pretty close to each other.
And nobody cared. We all shared because we know that we are not competing against each other.
And I just think that the mind shift has changed. And I think it's a good thing.
Yeah. I mean, case in point, you got Carlos Vargas and Matt and Molly from GNN.
I mean, literally two guys who both operate in Eastern Massachusetts who both write a ton of homeowner's insurance. And they both market a very similar to mortgage brokers.
A hundred percent. And what did Carlos say? I learned a lot from these guys.
Yeah. And, and, and, and what did these guys say? Hey, Matt says, I'm willing to share, man.
I'm willing to share. It's crazy because I think it's being comfortable enough to know that there's plenty out there.
And, you know, I think we all think we all have the secret sauce. But it doesn't matter if you have the secret sauce and I share it.
What are you going to do with it? And I think that's, that's the key thing is

we're going to make it and put our own spin on things. And it's, uh, at the end of the day, we're not competing against other independent agents.
We're just not doing that. Yeah.
No. Cause, cause eventually the clients, the clients are going to find when it comes to independent agents, the clients are going to find agencies that fit to their personality and what they're looking for.
I think the difference when it comes to directs and captives and even, you know, the carriers that we work with who compete directly against us and use our data against us, like, they're, it's so much more of a marketing play for them, right? It's just wedging in, it's hitting them a thousand times. It's, it's just constantly being that button that that's one click away.
And, you know, that's, that's a marketing strategy, but it's not a strategy for success for the client. So it's more about, at least from my perspective, and I think you and I have even talked about this before, it's about getting them into our channel.
Once someone understands the value of an independent agent, then it feels like they kind of shake out into the agency that best fits what they're looking for. I agree.
I think we have two competitive advantages. Number one, we live in their community.

You cannot take these direct writers. They are not focused in affecting communities.
They're just not doing that. So that is one huge competitive advantage.

And I'm hoping that it's not all, but hopefully a large majority of independent agents, as we were just talking about, the direct writers that we're competing against on a daily basis are offering our clients

a hundred thousand dollars of liability on their homeowners well shame on us if we're independent

agents offering a hundred thousand dollars shame on us because at the end of the day that hundred

thousand dollar liability for that homeowner's policy only benefits the insurance company so

we are better than that we know our clients need more than that. We shouldn't even think we should educate, educate, educate, educate.
And we're going to lose in some cases because it's all about the almighty dollar, but we should not stoop to the level of, of any of our clients having a hundred thousand dollar liability on their homeowner's policy. And that's, we're better than that.
Yeah, I agree. You know, one of the, one of the places that you and I have spent a lot of time talking because especially back when I was first getting off the ground is markets.
And, you know, I, I look today at the ecosystem and, and I was talking actually to our good buddy, Seth Zaremba about this when I was helping him with the launch video for Neon. We were talking about where agencies are going from the standpoint of, it's always kind of been that the goal was to do it yourself, right? Be your own, be your own boss, stand alone.
You only joined a network or an aggregator or a market access company if like you just couldn't get it done or you couldn't get to a market. And it's feeling after being part of Indium and getting to know CLI and getting to know some of these other networks that are available that maybe you don't hear about as much.
I don't know that that's so true. It feels to me like we're moving, the future of our industry is independent for sure, but also connected in a way that maybe wasn't even possible five, 10 years ago.
Do you see that coming? Do you feel like that's, do you think, you know, where do you kind of stand on this idea of, you know, whether it's through a tool like Indium, or sorry, a tool like Neon, or joining a CLI, or an Indium or something like that? Like, where do you see this going? And do you even think it's possible to grow that agency all by yourself, not connected to these other organizations? I think it's hard. I think as being a little different in the senses is I'm very thickheaded and I so chose that I was not going to start by going to an aggregator, just me being thick-headed and saying I can do it.
I think it is very difficult because it's just the way the insurance world works where carriers want big numbers. They want to know that you're going to succeed, you're going to give them business, and we're going to start off.
It's like expecting a baby to come out of the womb and start running it just it's not natural you know it's going to take time unless if you're going to start off. Um, it's like expecting a baby to come out of the womb and start running.
It just, it's not natural. You know, it's going to take time unless if you're going to buy agencies.
So I think a lot of agencies and for good, bad, or indifference, and a lot of people can argue this both. I think the agents are going to have a different view than, than insurance companies is.
I think a lot of agents now are looking for protection.

I think protection in the sense of, you know, where do we go when commissions continue to decrease? And I think, you know, I only dream that there's insurance companies that will look at us agents and say, hey, if you, Ryan, we're going to say, uh, you're with a X, Y, Z insurance company and you write $300,000 of new business this year. Okay.
And the last three years I've only written $20,000 and I'm, I wrote $30,000 of new business this year. Why should you and I get the same compensation where, you know, you're, you should be paid based off your performance.
I would love to see carriers pay based off of performance. Now we're paid based off of performance on something we have very little or no control over.
And I apologize if I offend anybody, because I seem to offend people when say, that we agents are really a sales organization, aren't we? When I hear underwriting, isn't it the job of the people who are pricing the product to make sure that they're pricing it properly? And our job is to go sell it. And then we hear that, hey, Ryan, you're running a temperature, running a temperature.
Well, please tell me who not to write and I won't write them. And I don't say that to be a wise guy.
I say that it is. So now I'm being paid off of a performance that really is a performance off of somebody else who wrote pricing when I didn't write

the pricing. Right.
So if you really think about that,

why is there in maybe there is carriers not saying, okay,

if you write X amount,

if you're the first 100 to 300,000 that you write a new business there,

we're going to give you this. If you reach 300 to a million,

we're going to give you this. If you reach 300 to a million, we're going to give you this.
How about a performance-based commission based on how you grow? I think that would maybe change some of the agency's mind in order to... Why I kept saying protection is I think agents are assuming or thinking that with numbers, we have volume and with volume, we have power, which I do agree.
But with that power, you know, we also lose some power because you and I belong to a cluster of, you know, 500 other agencies. Well, we don't have, we have power within the 500, but we're not communicating directly with the carriers.
Right. So I think protection is really what agencies are looking for.
And unfortunately, if I'm being a realist, I think more and more clusters, I think there's going to be more agencies that come together and organize clusters senses Sense is very similar to like what Neon. Neon's bringing people together, reading data, helping each other with each other's data.
I think naturally something's going to come out of that. I'm not sure if they ever thought about that, but I think naturally there are going to be evolution of clusters in that sense, because I do think, unfortunately, we need some protection.
Yeah, we can't keep taking rate reductions or commission reductions and being asked to do more things. For example, you know, I can't explain how many things just on a small they're, they have a couple of pieces of chipping paint.
So now what we're doing is we're getting a letter. Hey, you need to have this piece repaired or you need to have this, you know, repainted.
It's great. We're communicating with the customer more and more and more and more.
How about with handling claims? Your agency needs to have an in-house claims person today because unfortunately the large majority of the claims that we're dealing with are becoming people that are become agitated because claims adjusters aren't following through. They're not calling back when they say they're going to call back or say, Hey, we're going to get back to you this week, which could be today, could be Friday at seven o'clock.
Um, so I think, I think we need protection and I think that's unfortunately where we're going to be going. Yeah.
I, you know, so I've had a couple of experiences recently with this particular thing. I think, um, I think a big part of the problem are some of the legacy games that a lot of carriers still play.
Um, I had an account come in, it was about $150,000 in premium that would have been a very nice account for Rogue. And I was told by a carrier when I submitted that business to them, no, we don't want it.
It was my client, the person that I was referred to was buying an existing business. So because it was new ownership, they're like, it's a new owner, all this stuff.
And they said, no, we don't want it. Well, another agent who's about 100 times bigger than me, who has a bigger book with that same carrier comes in and goes, submits it over the top of me, and they approve it.
And now I lost that account to the same company that had told me no. And I went back to them and I was like, WTF guys, except I did not use the initials there.
I was fairly upset on the phone. I said, I submitted this first.
I submitted it. I gave you a great submission.
I outlined the whole case for you. You actually know more because of my submission than their submission.
Cause I saw it and you give them and they're like, they have X amount of premium with us. Like if they want it, they get it.
And I'm like, it goes back to size, size. So you had size and they have volume.
So unfortunately, Ryan, you know, I hear the story. I've seen the story.
I was a part of that story when I first started. So unfortunately, it's something that happens.
And, you know, I'm not sure how many people out there want to talk about it or admit it, but it does happen. Yeah, they don't want to talk about it.
But then when you talk to carrier reps, they bitch and they complain about clusters and aggregators and networks leveraging their premium against them. And I'm like, well, if you guys didn't do like this scenario over here, then agents like me and other agents like me wouldn't need to go into a cluster and leverage the premium against you to get stuff done.
And I guess the question to you is, do you think

there's going to be regulation for like BORs and things like that, where everybody is on the even playing field where everybody isn't on the even playing field right now, because there are BOR protections out there and in other forms of protection, just like this, right? Yeah, so I'm I'm of two minds, right? I'm, I'm of two minds. Um, there's that I just want to know what the rules of the game are is really where I stand.
If it's going to be the wild west and it's dog eat dog and let's strap our pistols on and go to war. I'm okay with that game.
I can fight. I have no problem.
Just tell me that's the game and I can play that game. Or if we're going to do, but do the right thing and make a full submission and first in, and then we're going to acknowledge that first submission.
And when that person comes in over the top of me, I have, they have to BOR my initial submission for theirs to count. Like, don't tell me the rules are this way.
But then when you get one of your big guys in in all the rules go out the door um and if that's the rule if the rule is once you hit a certain amount you can just leverage the shit out of us use and abuse and we'll cave to your every demand then that's okay too I guess I just what bothers me just tell me how it works that's all you can choose whatever you want if I have to stand on my head and hand it to you with my feet, I will figure out how to do that if that's how you want the submission to come in. But I think the reason that there's a whole, and this is where I think this comes in.
There is a whole generation of agency owners between the ages of 35 and 50 who are new to the business three to five years into owning their agency. And they're making these decisions today.
And if carriers want to have the relationships that their marketing reps pretend like they want to have with agencies, then they need to establish the rules and abide by them. Now, some carriers do it.
This is not a broad sweeping knock, but I do think there are

enough carriers that play these games that, you know, they're going to tell you one thing and

then do something else. And then what ends up happening? You get frustrated, you go to the

network and then we just pile on and we push for more commissions and we push for more crap.

And everyone, the customer experience becomes worse. Everyone becomes more disconnected.
Everyone becomes more bitter. And that bothers me because it doesn't have to be that way.
It's just establish a set of rules and guidelines and play by them. What those rules and guidelines are, I don't think matters to anybody.
If it's big dogs win, screw you, then that's fine. I just got to become a big dog.
And then I get to, you know, walk in the room and get things done. I just need to know.
And I think the big dog has changed, though. I think I think behind closed doors, the big dog is obviously volume.
But I think the big dog today is the agency that is socially digitally technology savvy. And I think the reason why I think the big dog today is social, digitally, and technology savvy is because I think there's a difference today.
And Gary Vee sums it up best, right? He talks about the famous people today aren't actors and actresses. They're people on social media.
For example, my kids watch YouTube TV. They watch these kids.
Some do slime, some do this. And I'm like, who are these people? Duggan something, whatever they're called, right? They have millions and millions of views.
And my son tells me, yeah, this kid's nine years old, making millions of dollars a year based off of his YouTube show. Why? Because he has millions.
He has a microphone. And I think that is where, you know, you might look at yourself and say, my volume isn't big right now, because I'm brand new.
But you have a microphone that says that you have a big step, right? So that microphone can change the way people are going to perceive, meaning the decision makers that are going to deceive. So that's why I think there is going to be a complete shift.
And I think this data shift is really where it's going to help people like you and me who, you know, if you compare me to you, I'm big. But if you compare me to the top 100, I'm tiny, right? But the one thing that that's going to leverage for us,

that data is going to allow us to have an even playing field, not only with large independent agents, it's going to give us even a more powerful leverage against direct writers who have those billion dollar budgets. And that's, you know, I think that's, that's where the new wave is going to go.
And I think you're going to see a shift in this. I really do.
I know you're saying, hey, the game is different for different agencies based on volume and size. It has been.
It will probably continue. But I think it's going to change.
And I think what's going to help us and allow us to do that is agencies that are really progressive, that are first going to figure out what to do with their data, right? Secondly, that are going to continue to pound socially, digitally, and every other aspect of marketing. And I think that's what's going to give you an enormous opportunity to grow faster than other agencies from scratch, maybe 10, 15, 20 years ago.
So I agree with you. It's a very interesting time.
I'm glad that you went. That's where I wanted to go with you next was, was technology and the idea of data.
And, you know, you, you had mentioned Frank Sedner before, and you know, there was a time when I think Frank was behind the scenes, but after his insurance dudes or insurance guys podcast and his article in, your your magazine and in you know future articles that may or may not be coming out you know he's not so behind the scenes anymore and my reason for saying all that is um you know this idea of data and not just data but clean data and what you can do with that data and put into use, I wholly agree with you. You know, Rogris will most likely never be a top 100 agency, but I do think that we can get to a very sustainable and legitimate position in the marketplace faster because of some of the technologies that you've introduced me to, you know, things like Tarmica and Neon and Donna and these technologies that are allowing Main Street, everyday working class agencies to be primetime players, in some cases have more access and insight to the things happening in their agencies than the top 100 who oh there's no question no question

totally totally agree with you and I think that's that's having your hand on the pulse and that's why um you know when people ask you know where is the future going I'm super excited where the future is going because I think I think the great thing about the technology whether it's Donna whether it's Tarmaca, whether it's the insurance agent app, doesn't matter.

All that those aspects of technology are giving and allowing us agents, doesn't matter if you're Paradiso's side or Ryan Hanley's size of the agency, right? It's creating a more even playing field. If anything, I think it's creating a more powerful playing field for us smaller agencies versus the agencies that are you know hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue because of having that technology and being able to implement right the reason why Titanic hit the the iceberg was is because was so big, it took so long to move that boat.

Right. And so size and volume can cause, um, uh, I think it can cause stagnation.
I think it will stagnate some only because of the size and the ability of not being as flexible. And I think That's why I'm super excited, you know, whether it's Tarmaca and allowing agencies to be able to get six, seven, eight quotes in the average of six seconds.
I mean, I'm sorry, six minutes max. Where do you get six, seven, eight, 10 quotes in six minutes? I showed an agency the other day.
I'm like, in six minutes, we have all this. We can now be profitable with that.
Now, the larger agencies can implement that too. It's just, when are they going to implement it? I think it's, you know, those are very interesting, you know, technologies.
It takes something like Donna, where it's a data program. And what you find people saying is I've had agents say, well, one of my customer service teammates says that I think it's going to be this and I don't have time for that and I don't have time for this.
Well, let me tell you something. That data and that data program called Donna is all about giving a better customer experience and finding out if we're not giving a good customer.
We're human beings. We are staff and teammates are going to make mistakes.
It's about identifying those mistakes and fixing them. It's never about making mistakes.
It's how do we relate to fixing the problem or issue? We're not all going to have good days every day. And I think the most powerful thing you have today, you have things going against you.
You're small, you're a startup, you're limited carriers. But I think you have all the aspects of having enough people that you surround yourself in this industry, number one, which is going to allow you to grow faster.
Number two, that these people and your friends are helping you identify successful technology that's there today. So people like you, Ryan, are going to have the ability to be able to grow faster, quicker, and we'll see what happens with the carriers.
But I try to open the eyes to any of the higher up people that I might know, whether they're vice president or presidents, to say, hey, you need to take on a Ryan Hanley. Ryan Hanley is the future.
Some of these other carrier agencies are not the future. You know, they don't have a website or they have a website that's dinastoric or still on a static platform, not even mobile friendly.
I mean, there's a million things, right? That's not the future agent. The future agent is the agent that's going to keep an open mind.
May not be, you said, oh, I might not be one of the top 100. You may not want to be the one of the top 100.
One of the most powerful agencies that I would say in the country is Russell Castle Insurance. He does extremely well.
The dollars per teammate is enormous. And what he does is he runs an efficient, I would call it an ice cream parlor.
An ice cream parlor only does one thing really well, ice cream. And he sticks within his realm.
He's happy, he's profitable, and he makes sure he can take care of his teammates. So I think there's huge opportunity and there's going to be a lot more people just like you that are going to continue to shake this this industry up yeah I agree with that I mean there's so many agencies and the beauty of the last three to five years has been they're starting to speak up or ask.
I think a lot of times we were so, you know, you go to this, you sit in your office all day. And then once a year, you come out to this trade organization and you sit in a room and you listen to a couple of people talk to you.
And then you go back and you put your head down and that's, you know, social media, Facebook groups, networking groups, there's a million different masterminds, every flavor, you can really pick where you want to be who you want to hang out with. And it's allowed so many agencies to build exactly the type of agency that they want to be.
And, you know, when you talk about these different technologies, you know, I, I have struggled one of the struggles and I've talked about this before on the show that I had, is being aware of so much of what's out there. It's been hard not to chase technology versus just calling people on the phone and writing insurance because, you know, it's in my nature to do that.
And I know what's there and what's possible. And like, you know, Frank has said it.
Seth Zaremba said it. You know, you're hearing it more and more.
The idea that download is the future of our industry is insane. It's absolutely insane.
And the quality of implementation around Ivins, and it's not necessarily a knock on Ivins itself, but the quality of the implementation around download, it's so difficult to do. Sure.
Can you write policies and cash checks? Sure. You can.
You absolutely positively can. But when you actually start to think about what you have from a data perspective, and then I have a conversation for an hour with Chris Buran on this podcast, and he's telling me that the number one factor impacting the valuation that you get over the next five to 10 years is going to be how clean your data is.
You can't get clean data with download. I mean, I'm having my VA right now has spent the last week contacting my carriers, trying to better align my agency management system with the download.
And it's a nightmare. I mean, this carrier does this with this and doesn't give you this.
And, and I mean, I know I'm not saying anything that anyone's been around for a while doesn't know, but that reality to me, you know, you listen to that and then you think Tarmaca, Donna, you know, agency apps like the independent agency app, you think about Salesforce implementations, whether on Neon or not on Neon, but, you know, just, I mean, a HubSpot Salesforce. HubSpot.
I mean, these are API driven technologies where the connection is exactly what you need it to be when you need it to be there. And it's done in real time.
And that is such a game changer. I do not think, I think it feels like science fiction to most agents.
And what I hope is that, you know, they hear me, I talk in hyperbole, that's my shtick. So I think some people discount it, but you don't talk in hyperbole and you're living it right now.
And you're, you're in these conversations with people. I mean, you're driving and driving a lot of these technologies out into the marketplace.
You're a force behind that. So I hope that they'll listen to you.
Well, I, you know, the interesting thing I, you and I were together a few weeks ago and I've been a David Goggins freak for some time and we started chatting, right? And, you know, the interesting

thing he said the other day that, you know, we, we here in my town, right up the road, seven houses down is one of the second largest Ford collections. Henry Ford, the guy's a Henry Ford junkie in the, not in the United States, but in the world.
He has a hundred thousand pieces. And one of the things he has hanging up as a quote, as Henry Ford said, if I listen to those, not so much just critics, I would be making faster horses in 1920.
And instead, I'm making cars. Yeah.
If you really think about that, it's the same thing that we're thinking about when we're talking about data, right? I mean, who would ever think that 10, 15 years ago, we would be talking clean data? Clean data is one of the largest and most valuable things to our evaluation moving forward, right? And here we are struggling with it because of some of the technology. So how I'm looking at this is, how do I drive and generate people to come together, connect, for example, connecting just Aries Analytics and the Donna program just with great people and industry people who love the industry like Rocket Referrals, Torrey and his brother.
Yeah, let's do it. That makes all the sense in the world.
Well, that is is the attitude we need and i think we need to take that attitude is is as agents and really force change um we need to push change as david goggins says it's mindset right the only person that can stop you is you just look in the mirror and and that's what i'm going to continue to do um some people will like us ryan Some some people won't like us. We always, I always say, don't be a jellyfish.
My grandfather always reminded me, have a backbone. And we're going to push this industry.
And I think we need to continue to push it. And that's what I love about Frank.
Some people say, Hey, you know, Frank's got a chip on his shoulder and Frank's this and Frank's that. Frank's hitting a lot of valid points when, when, when we were recently talking on, on, um, we were on a, um, webinar together and, um, he got a very interesting question.
You know, what is, you know, why can't, um, agents, uh, build that, uh, great customer experience. And Frank stepped back and said, Hey, let's always remember one thing.
When a carrier talks to the agent's customer, the agent doesn't know what they're sending. And when the agent talks to the customer that's insured with whatever carrier, the carrier doesn't know.
The customer experience will always be flawed until we have a system. And that's why if you think about what happened last week, you did a great job with the launch.
And the great thing about seeing the launch is that I step back and say, Ryan Hanley, Seth Sarumba, and all these other agents are supporting each other.

And if there's nothing that makes you smile as an independent agent, there's nothing that made me smile more that he reached out to you and you supported the heck out of him. And agents supporting other agents.
And that's what makes me smile. And I think that's what's going to continue to push the envelope to make technology better, make systems better so that we all can win.
And I think carriers will embrace it because I think it's going to benefit them just as much as it's going to benefit us. Yeah.
And, you know, I think – so what I think is interesting about Seth's, he makes a lot of points. I think the one out of that video, if you have no interest in Salesforce or what he's doing, if you have no interest in the technology, that's fine.
That part, we all get to build whatever we want. That's the beauty of this business.
Yep. I think his most important point is that no one is going to do it for us.
We can't count on our carrier partners. We can't count on outside technology vendors.
We have to count on each other. That to me has been one of the biggest eye-opening parts of becoming an owner of an agency and dealing with all this stuff every day has been like you I only now will work with a piece of technology if someone that I admire and respect has used it you know is referring them I just you can't count on these people I mean I was pitched a product at the beginning and during the pitch the founder had the balls to tell me yeah I'm just trying to get as many units on this thing as I can so I can sell it.
And I'm like, bro, if I was even considering working with you now, I'm not. And this is, this is a piece of technology that I know a lot of people are getting tricked into using.
And I just, we have to count on each other. We have to rely on each other.
We we have to do 16 person masterminds in the tarmic headquarters kind of semi-impromptu and and share and be open because um there are a lot of people and a lot of outside uh you know i don't want to just say like venture capitalists but like a lot of organizations whose whose best interest is not the betterment of our customers or our staff or us or our families or our communities, that's not their best interest. And they're going to do everything they can to extract as much value from us as they can and not care.
And we have to be very smart. And the only way to do that is to trust each other as agency producers, owners, as agency people.
It's the only way to move forward. I mean, that has become clear, if anything is, having been seven months into this role.
Well, yeah, I think the number one thing, the same thing as what you just did last week is you stepped up to the plate and supported another agent. And that's, you know, my biggest concern is making sure not only associations, but groups don't just start disliking other insurance agent groups just because they might be different.
and that's the key factor. Let's support each other.
Let's not be jealous. Let's not take

sides. Let's say, hey, we can move the insurance industry forward.
Why would we not want that? Everybody is not meant to be on Neon. Just like everybody is not meant to be with Hawksoft or Vertifor or Applied.
That's why there are so many systems. There are systems because they all work a little different and we all have different workflows inside of our agency.
So I think the key factor is, is can we open enough minds that first and foremost, we stick together and second, continue to open the minds in the senses of, Hey, we need to find the technology that's going to work best for us. Meaning like what you had said, Hey, there's so many shiny objects out there, but how do I keep track of all of them? Well, I think that's one of the biggest things that if I was to say that the insurance agents failed at is, why are we not embracing and showing up and being a part of the insure tech world so that we can identify and share with each other? And that's what I love to do.
I just wish there were more agents that would be more involved and then bringing it to other agents so that we can open each other's mind. Because at the end of the day, if I'm using a technology like Donna and I open that door for you, Ryan, you're going to make it better.
Period. Yeah.
You know, what do we do with Seth? Well, Seth talks about some,

we all throw ideas out there. What does he do? He makes it better.
Why? Because we utilize the system or we utilize the technology. We understand the processes because even though we're all doing it a little differently, we're all still touching a lot of the same points.
So the end of the day, if we can stick together, get over the, you know, you know, the popularity contest and things of that sort, I think agents are going to win. And I think the industry is going to win.
And I think carriers are going to win. And I think there's, there's a whole new wave of people, Ryan, that are going to start just like you.
And they are going to be a force to be reckoned with. a buddy.
Um, I would have loved to take them on my team is Bronco is what we call him. Um, he's out in a Naga talk.
Uh, he's got cancer right now. He's fighting cancer.
He's a great, great, great young man. He's a beast, man.
And I, I, I called the insurance companies and said, if you don't take him on in five years, you're going to be kicking yourself in the ass because you're going to realize this dude is going to, he just, he will not be outworked. Um, he will figure out technology.
He will figure out systems. And, um, you know, that's, that's what we need to do is support each other.
Yeah. I agree with you.
And this is the, this, I want to be respectful of your time. I think what you just said is the way is is is the idea that I wish carriers would open their mind to.
I just had a carrier decline an appointment with me who I am working in their space every day in the commercial side, because I didn't have a million in commercial premium on the books, which which doesn't sound like a lot. I'm a startup agency.
I get it. But at the same time, I was like, bro, I'm trying to, you know how I get to a million.
I write a bunch with you. Like, that's what I'm, that's why I'm calling you.
And you know, it's just, that's such a point in time. And then, you know, I always love to give Hanover shout outs because they have been such a tremendous partner for my agency.
And I love the way they think about it. I had the region of the personal lines, Northeast regional guy call me

just for an update, just, you know, just to check in a couple of weeks ago. And we were talking

about stuff. And I said, I said, you know, man, I finished the call with, you know, I'm looking

forward to writing more with you guys. And he goes, look, don't even worry about that.
He goes,

we don't care about Rogue Risk 2020. He goes, we appointed you for Rogue Risk 2025.
And I was like, wow, that is exactly how I believe a carrier should be thinking about this generation of agencies because we're coming in and we're going to start small because we've learned the lesson of giving away a shit ton of equity up front. So we're coming in.
There's a lot of people self-funding. There's a lot of people doing different things from that perspective.
But in five years, they're going to be the next players in the marketplace. Right.
But just remember one thing. And one thing that I remembered is those that I was in your boat in 2006, right? And it's and just do me one favor remember those carriers that stuck with you yeah when you started because I reiterate to myself I had the same thing oh well you know there's another person they don't want you to have the appointment you're not big enough you're this you're that the other.
And the one thing you have in control is how hard you work. And I still have written down the same thing that says, I will not be outworked.
I will not be outworked. I will not be outworked.
So remember those carriers that believe in you today, because there is always, Hanover has been a great partner of mine. But there is always a carrier or two who says, you know what? We're going to invest in you, Ryan, and we hope that you stay loyal like we're going to be loyal to you in 2025.
The great thing is that gentleman that reached out to you and said, hey, we're investing in your future. I mean, what makes more sense than that? Reward those carriers.
And I, I, I do the same thing. Just don't forget the carrier, um, who helped make you who you are in five years from now, when you, when you, when you have $10 million and carriers are trying to come into the door, just remember those carriers who said, you know, I'm sorry, you're, you know, you don't have this, you don't have that, you don't have't have this well I can't get to that if I don't have the opportunity to get to that meaning I have to have carriers and I went through it and and just got to remain loyal to those who are loyal to you and and thank them I thank them all the time for for the opportunity to be able to be where I am today because they took that risk.
Just as Hanover took that risk with you. And I give carriers like that a big shout out because, you know, they believe in you.
They believe in their future by investing in you. And as you know, you're not going to make any money in year one, right? No.
You're probably not going to make much in year two. No, there's going to be no money made in year one.
But remember those that invested in you. And that's, that's just awesome.
Shout out to, you know, not only a great partner, you a great partner, our agency too. Yeah.
And the last thing I'll say is you won't be outworked. You will not, you also not be out flagged as right now behind you.
I can see I'd counted it while you were talking, nine different American flags. I have one in my backdrop as well.
And I have, I have one of the things that you probably don't even realize, but I have learned from you is I'm an incredibly patriotic person, but I don't display it as much or I didn't. And from watching you and being around you, I've become very comfortable.
I love this place. I love it.
Perfect, no, but I absolutely love this country. I love what it stands for.
And I just wanted to tell you, because I've never said this to you before, I have watched, learned and become very comfortable with my own patriotism, which that might sound weird, because of you and your openness to it. And I just wanted to say thank you for that.
I appreciate that. I said goodbye to my mentor yesterday.
And next to him was this flag flag and he served and he had a ninth grade education he actually never told his mom and dad that his dad unfortunately was a degenerate gambler and alcoholic and mom at those times were stay at homes because they had brothers and sisters and he quit school to make sure he could pay the Spalatchee meat market their money because back then they didn't pay. And I spent hundreds of hours with this man and learned more about this country and not only from my grandfather, but from, you know, and proud as a peacock, you could, you know, you have to be able to wear it.
And people don't have to agree. And we're going through turmoil in this country.
But the greatest thing is, is that people fought and died for us to go through that turmoil. In other countries, you can't do what we can do here.
So even if I disagree with people burning the flag, people

die to give you that right to burn that flag, even though I will never burn that flag. So

if you only knew how many flags I really have in my office, just got a new one yesterday.

The good news is I know there are guns behind all of them, which makes me even more comfortable.

So Chris, dude, I appreciate you so much. You are a treasure to the industry.
And I mean that in the most sincere way. I think most of the people listening do not have an appreciation for what you've done and how much you've given and how many people you've helped.
And it's just an honor to have you on here and share a little bit of your insight. Honored to be on here.
We're going to keep pushing for you.

And as I've always said to you and other agents, if you need help getting a carrier,

please open your mouth.

Good, hardworking people.

I'm always willing to open my mouth and put something on the line for you.

Yeah, I appreciate it.

Hey, be good.

Thanks, brother.

Cheers. for you so yeah i appreciate it hey be good thanks brother Yeah, baby Yeah, baby Yeah, baby Yeah, baby Yeah, baby Yeah, baby That really hurts You go fuck yourself with your fat fucking ass.
Do you want to have a few drinks and smoke a joint bubbles?

Yes.

Yes.

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Do you want to have a few drinks and smoke a joint, Bubbles?

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