RHS 045 - How Tarmika is Making Small Commercial Profitable with Raghav Tanna

Hello everyone and welcome back to the show. I'm fired up for today's episode.
I'm fired up because I see things changing.

In this episode, I explain an experience that I had with this tool, with Tarmaka, with the tool that I've been talking about for months and months that really is a cornerstone of

rogue risk and what we're trying to do in building this hybrid human digital agency. Tarmaka is an integral piece of that.
And I had just the perfect display of that experience last week. And it just happened that two days later, I ended up speaking with Raghav Tana, the founder of Tarmaka, on the show.
And I've kind of kept my interview with Raghav, I've kind of kept it, I've held on to it. I didn't want to interview him right away.
I wanted to experience the tool. I wanted to be involved with it.
I wanted to have more experience with it before I had him on the show and talked to him about what is happening. And I just see this tool as an absolute game changer for the industry.
It makes small and micro commercial profitable. That's what it does.
That is its purpose. And you can, you know, and there's, it's just the beginning and I'm so excited.
And I will say that there are going to be moments where I gush over what this tool is doing. But for a startup agency like mine and for so many other small and or startup agencies that are struggling to get ahead with small commercial, what Tarmica is doing will completely flip the script on what small commercial can be for an agency.
And I'm just excited about that. I'm excited when I find a piece of technology that actually works and actually benefits independent agents.
There's not some sub-narrative where they're really just trying to build up enough of a business so then they can, you know, flip it and start selling insurance themselves. Or if they're constantly, you know, we're always, so many sure techs are constantly both trying to court the independent market while still subverting it at the same time.
And just none of that is true with Tarmica. So I'm very excited to share this with you.
There probably will be moments where it sounds like a commercial. I don't care.
I believe in this product. I don't care if you use it or not.
I use it. I use it every single day.
And I see small and micro commercial becoming available at scale, making it profitable. And I think you are absolutely nuts if you write micro and small commercial

and you're not using Tarmica.

Now, granted, if they don't have the markets yet

where you are, that's a different story.

But if they do, you need to get on this tool.

So that's it.

That's the deal.

Guys, the only thing I will say other than that is

go to ryanhanley.com, stop what you're doing

and type in your email address

so that you can get new episodes by email. Even if you're subscribed on iTunes or wherever you listen to shows, get on the email list because there are some additional things that I sent out.
I wrote an article a couple weeks ago and I emailed that out. So if you're interested in that kind of stuff, if you're interested in kind of being in line with some of the content that I'm creating and different things that I'm doing, it's mostly just the podcast, but there is some other stuff.
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All right, let's get on to the interview. So what's up, dude? Not much.
We're having a big week. Nine new agencies signed yesterday.
That's amazing. I'm out.
Yeah, dude. So the platform worked exactly how it's supposed to work yesterday so i am sitting here phone rings boom pick it up you know ryan rogue risk whatever hey man um i i'm really in a pinch here uh i called three different agencies a week ago yeah i own an art studio i'm trying to get into this new building i need to need to have insurance to get in the building.
And I expected to be able to have, I expected to have it done by now. And no one's gotten back to me a week later.
Can you help me? No problem. Pull up my Tarmaca installation.
I go, I go, Hey man, here's what I'm going to do. I've built some special technology where I can get you rates for, you know, right over the phone

here. I'm just going to ask you some questions.
We're going to pull up rates immediately while I'm on the phone. We'll, we'll at least know what you're going to pay within five minutes.
That cool. That sounds great.
So just walk through the questions. Bing, bing, bing, bing, bing.
You know what I mean? Pretty straightforward risk. It's like $600 bop.
So it's not like I'm making a million dollars, but it took me seven minutes. I get to the end.
I go, so $553 with Liberty Mutual, you know, all the coverage that he needed. And, you know, he just needed 1 million, 2 million with a little bit of BPP.
And he's like, he literally goes on the phone. He goes, holy shit.
He goes, I've literally called three agencies and been waiting for a week. And it took me seven minutes on the phone with you.
He goes, I'm giving you the best Google review ever. So bridged over to Liberty, took his credit car, bing, bang, boom, binder out the door.
He's into his shop today. He texts me and said, Hey man, I just want to thank you again because I'm, you know, I wouldn't have been able to get in today if I hadn't called you.
And from my perspective, like shit. Yeah.
I mean, it's a $553 bop, you know, but it took me all told to take the payment and everything. It took me 25 minutes, 25 minutes tops from phone call to bound policy binder out the door.
And you get paid 200 bucks. And here's the other thing.
Dude's going to talk gonna talk to people I'm gonna solicit his personal lines so like I just I got done with um I got done with uh with that transaction I texted you and I was excited because you know that's you know I've been putting stuff in the system as as it's come in the door yeah but I felt like that was the first time that I got a call. I pulled up my portal.
I walked the guy right through the portal live on the phone. And on the phone, I'm getting rates back from the carriers.
Yeah, and we need to get but that's the thing we need to get you more carriers. But that's perfect.
Because yesterday, you texted me. I gotta say yesterday was a great day.
We had 106 quotes come in yesterday total.

That's awesome. So 106 people quoted yesterday.
You texted me saying you bound a policy. John Horvath texted me and said, just got my first submission through Grange.
This is fucking great. Yeah, it is great.
It is great. I will say, you know, so I was thinking about, I was thinking about, you know, the next advisory council meeting or whatever.
And for those listening at home, you know, people know this, but, you know, I'm on the advisory board for Tarmacom. I'll have done an intro for this or whatever.
So, but, you know, some simple things from a tracking perspective, like being able to go back in and like check a box and let you guys know, like, hey, you know, I didn't quote C bounced out I quoted Chubb Liberty and Hanover and I bound with Liberty at 553 check you know like that would be that would be you know over time that would be a cool feature like to be able to track like what's going on I'm sure you're tracking some of that but um yeah yeah we have a lot of through now. I mean, there's still some kinks we have to work out.
Obviously they're always, there always will be, but we're, we're working on all of them day by day getting through it. So it's awesome.
Yeah, no, it, um, I just, uh, I w I was excited because I, I could see the vision, you know, when we first met, um, you know, so for everyone listening at home, you know, I, I first, I first met you. Uh, we talked, did we talk on the phone? I think we talked on the phone.
Paradiso did a text message intro. We talked on the phone, we kind of hit it off.
And then I was going out to see Paradiso. This is maybe like February.
Yeah. February.
And, um, and I texted you and I was like, yo, dude, I'm going to be in Connecticut. This before the the Rona and uh I said yo I'm gonna be in Connecticut you bombed down and then we probably spent like what two two two and a half hours just talking shop and stuff and um I was just completely sold on on value proposition because yeah I just couldn't mean, that was a profitable $553 Bob profit.
You know what I mean? So for every other agency that's not using Tarmica, that account right there is unprofitable. That's a profitable transaction for me.
Now it took 25 minutes and I'm going to cross sell the shit out of them. I'm going to get a great Google review, absolutely profitable transaction.
And, uh, that was what I bought into in February when you pitched, you know, when you laid out what it's going to be. And I mean, and we're just, you know, what, what version are you on? I mean, we're, you're just getting started.
You think about that. I mean, I'm like, this is crazy.
Just, you have a bank of people just answering the phone, helping them, building relationships, walking them through closing deals. I mean, think about that.
I mean, I'm like, this is crazy. Just you have a bank of people just answering the phone, helping them building relationships, walking them through closing deals.
I mean, it's, I think I was jacked up yesterday. I'm super probably iteration like 40.
And we'll probably have 100 to go this year alone. So I mean, it changes every day, but we're working on all the kinks and people like you are the ones that when you tell me, hey, I just got this account found in five minutes or whatever.
I mean, that's the most important thing to us is how can you make yourself more profitable over the next year for anything that's under, you know, if you have a hundred thousand dollar account, obviously it's a little different, but if you're talking to these 500 to $10,000 bops, this is the easiest solution you can have. Yes.
Yes. And, you know, cause there's so much discussion today about, uh, you know, like, um, you know, so take Carruthers, right.
Who, who I know you've talked to. Yeah.
So Carruthers and some other guys like Carruthers, um, are really, I want to say, um, I don't know what the best way to say this is. They are, um, normal, right? They're making, they're helping more and more agents feel comfortable address middle market accounts, which is something that is very uncomfortable.
You know, unless you, unless you're taught how to do it, it is very uncomfortable to approach somebody with 150, 250, 400,000, $500,000 of premium and, and start talking to them before you've ever done it before. And they're starting to normalize that.
And it feels very sexy. It feels, you know, you sign a big account, you get the macho going, you know, you know, whether you're, whether you're male or female, you know, that machismo, you pull the shoulders back a little bit, you walk a little taller.
And, and what I love about this is, if we all only sold middle market, then 75% of the marketplace would have no, no one to go to, we'd all be going to Progressive's call center. And I believe that independent agents kit with a tool like this, get the best of both worlds.
And I don't just want this to be a, I don't want this to be just be a pitch for Tarmunga but I just, this is like the perfect time for the call since I came off of that thing yesterday where I was like, it worked exactly as it's supposed to. And now I'm jacked out of my mind.
Yep. I love it.
That's what I like to hear. This is like my favorite type of conversation.
It's someone like you calling me and saying, Hey, I, I had someone call me, I plugged it in. It took seven minutes because realistically, if you would pick the market that you would have went to and went directly to that carrier on the phone chances of them coming back with a quote that you could have found right on the fly there are slim yeah you're taking you're taking a risk or and here's the other thing what I and this is what I'm kind of doing this is what I've started doing on personal lines to a shout out to my shorty uh for to do this, even though, you know, I, it seems intuitive now, but she, she, my shorty is my wife, Lauren.
She just pulling up the portal while you're on the phone with them. Cause what do you normally do? Right.
You, you have a piece of paper and I have them. I mean, look at, look at this right here.
This is, this is the other side of it is this disaster of notes, which no one can see in red ink on a yellow piece of paper, which I can barely read my own handwriting. And now I'm supposed to take this and plug this into seven different carriers and figure out, you know, who's, you know, where do I save an extra hundred bucks, Liberty or Hartford? You know what I mean? Like, and then what ends up happening is you do a disservice to the client because your CSR goes, I'm not plugging that into seven different carriers.
I don't care if the quote comes back at $775 or $650. Not to the client, that $125.
That could mean the world to them. But to your CSR, they're like, F it, don't care.
Liberty's easy to use. I'm just going to go to Liberty.
And that's what it's going to be. And, you know, the beauty of, again, of having this ability is you're talking to them on the phone, you're plugging the answers right into the system.
It's pushing back real rates. So now you, you know, even if you want to go in and bridge to two different systems and kind of work some, some more of the stuff in the system, that's fine.
But at least, you know, where to start.

And, um, I, yeah, I, I, uh, yeah, I saw it. I just think, you know, I've been, well, obviously I've been plugging in the listeners of the show.
No. Cause I, um, do the live read before all the

episodes and stuff, but, uh, I really believe that what you've built here is should rejuvenate

Thank you. do the live read before all the episodes and stuff.
But I really believe that what you've built here is should rejuvenate or re-enthusi bring enthusiasm back. Tell tomorrow's a vacation day.
Bring enthusiasm back to small commercial because you can just fly. I mean, you can just fly.
So it doesn't have to be sexy either. It's just, it's profitable again.
I think that's the most important part. Doesn't have to be sexy if it's profitable.
A hundred percent. So, okay.
So let's, so we started with that enormous and ridiculous plug. And I do think everyone should go to tarmika.com.
That's T-A-R-M-I-K-A.com and get your demo today. Even if you don't buy the system, know the system, so that when you're ready to step into the big leagues, you can know who to talk to.
But with that plug out of the way, I just want, I think it's important for the audience, for this audience, for my audience to know more about you. And people have probably heard a little bit about you on Cass's podcast, and I know you've been making the rounds, so maybe they've gotten some of the story.
But I want to just briefly get into your background because your background was crucial to my belief in your ability to make this product successful long-term for independent agents. And I would just love for you to run that down.
Yeah. So I started my insurance career, as Chris, our director of sales always says in diapers, my dad's owned an agency for a very long time.
And I was in his office when I was young. He used to work out of the basement for a few years when he first started.
So I've always been around it. And when I graduated college, it was natural for me to go into the insurance industry.
So I worked at Travelers. I did that for a few years.
And my dad was telling me that he would love for me to come back and work with him, help drive new business on the commercial line side only. So I started doing it.
And I did that for about two years. And there was one account in particular where we submitted it.
Him and I were working on it together. It was a referral to him.
And I also knew the person. So we're working on it together.
And we'd submitted this through our CSRs to seven accounts, seven different carriers. And then it got declined by six.
And this took a long time. It was a big account.
It had a ton of workers' comp class codes. It was a staffing firm out of Virginia and it took forever.
So I got annoyed naturally and I decided I was going to go find a solution and InsureTech Connect happened to be coming up so I went and attended and I didn't see anything that I thought was valuable for an agency. So one thing led to another and we just decided we're going to

start building this thing and I found a co-founder in Gita, contacted my dad's and one thing led to

another and here we are two years later and we have a product that agencies are using. And how many agencies are on a platform now? So we're over 200 now, but we have all these cluster agreements and aggregator agreements.
So in total, agencies that can have access to the system, it's into the thousands now. Wow.
It's crazy, man. I mean, just how fast it's going.
So the key piece of that was that you had sold before and that your dad owned an agency. And what I really like too is that you were building the product out of, you know, building the product out of the office

that your dad actually operated in as well.

And I mean that in an incredibly positive way

because what it said to me was,

so my beef with InsureTech has always been that,

and this is changing rapidly, so this is not really the case,

but I think for a lot of agents,

they're gun shy on up-and-coming insure tech products because the curve is very natural. Boisterous young CEO comes in, tells everyone that they're doing everything wrong, that the product they're creating is going to solve either one very large problem or every problem they've ever had.
And either way, they act as if none of us have ever even thought about that problem before. And how could we have been so stupid up until this point not to solve it? And then they get smashed in to the industry.
Things don't work out quite the way they think. And then they either sell off to someone who's a competitor to us, or the product just kind of dwindles a few agents use it and you never hear from them again and the hard part about that

is um the the innovators in the industry were they're always looking for that edge and they and they they get into these products and they try it and then a few people follow them and then they get burnt and then they're back out and they're still looking for something and it creates this quagmire and what what what I thought was so interesting was you had a very healthy respect for what an independent agent is and does. Not just like you understood, but you lived it.
You had breathed it. You had been told no.
You'd grind it out, you know, all the prospecting ways and felt that pain. And I think, you know, I think that type of commitment is why some of the people who are in the Tarmica ecosystem, who are some of the most respected people in the industry are actually there.
I mean, it's a testament to you that you have like Paradiso, like Frank Setner, you know, some of these people who are advisors to you in all different capacities, you know, but that, that are spending time and talking to you. I mean, they're the right people, man.
Yeah. I think one of the most important things too is, and this is, this is coming from the agency side as well.
But when, back when I was on the agency side, one of the worst things is to build a relationship with someone, um, a close relationship with someone actually have the opportunity to quote their business and then not come back for a week. And then that ruins the relationship, right? If you lose a client because you never had a real relationship with them, that doesn't matter to me.
If you actually build a legitimate relationship with someone and you can't quote it enough time and give them the service that they deserve, that's when you lose a client and that's the worst feeling. So that's one of the reasons why we built this is because I never wanted to experience a good client relationship where I couldn't deliver.
But you're right. I mean, the people that have come around is one of the reasons where we've been, and I never say we're successful, but it's one of the reasons why I'm happy where we are today.
We have the right people behind us. We have the right people that use the system.
People want to get a little more efficient in their offices. Fortunately, people like you have introduced me to the best people in the industry, and it's helped us quite a bit.
Yeah. I know you have other advice as well, but, advised as well, but, um, connecting with Paradiso was, I think a huge win for you because, you know, I, and I'll say, you know, just to be completely transparent, if he hadn't been the one that had introduced me to you, I probably would have been much more hesitant in, you know, believing many of the things that you had said in our first discussion, because, you know, you just, I've, you know, when I was at agency nation, I pitched every day by another insurance, like literally every day.
Um, and it wasn't like you were pitching, we were just having a conversation, but you were describing what you're doing and what your process was. And, um, you know, with, with Paradiso being the one that's saying, Hey man, you need to talk to this kid.
Like he's doing something special. Uh, that, that kind of really opened up my ears.
And I know that's the case for a lot of the other people that are working with you. He was a, he was a really great, um, early get from an advisory standpoint for you.
I think he played a huge role in, in moving you forward the very beginning. Yeah.
I mean, I talked to Chris weekly and he's been a tremendous help for us, not just with introductions, but with his entire office, helping us with custom UIs and making sure that we have the right flow for an agency. He's been amazing.
I mean, between him, the first two guys that really helped sell were him and Matt Namoli. Yeah, Matt.
Those are two pretty big names in this industry. So for the two of them to back us and help us as much as they have with introductions and looking at our UI over and over again, every iteration change and making sure it looks good, I mean, it's huge.
So I can't thank them enough and they'll tell you that. I tell them every time I talk to them that I appreciate what they're doing but they always say it it's trying they're trying to better the industry and I think for them to give us that respect is huge well yes yes that it would be very difficult for someone to have to say I mean everyone can find fault in someone, but you could never say about Chris or Matt that whether you agree with their position or not, you could not say that their position wasn't in what they believed was in the best interest of not just themselves, but the industry.
And I think that's a rare quality and to to have both both of those guys, you know, because after so basically, for me, it was Chris told me to talk to you, we talked and then I called Matt and I was like, how legit is everything that this dude just said, because Chris just interviewed introduced. So then I got the back the sandwich side too.
And then I was like, I think I texted you back. And I was like, Yeah, I'm in that's awesome whatever you need if those two things recommend you then uh you know I would be an asshole for saying no that was a setup though we planned that whole thing we made sure that you chose Matt to call next instead of anybody else to make sure that we all sandwiched you together and you joined in the next week yeah well I mean and you got Duffy and you got a bunch of other great agencies that are just using the tool and, um, you know, all that stuff just adds up.
And I think, uh, I, so it was really interesting. So, so what was really interesting to me and, um, if you're not aware by now, I don't come into these conversations with an agenda, but, uh, I, I was listening, Cass had a really a really great uh interview I don't know if you listen to Cass's podcast at all I do but he had a great interview with Caitlin Eggers from Quantum the other day I don't know if you uh heard that one but she was talking about uh buying leads online so if you put into IAOA's Facebook group which I know you're not a part of because you don't know what need to see, but there's, you know, if you put, um, where do you buy leads from? You will get about 7,000 comments.
Half the people will just put like interested and the other half will put you're an a-hole if you have to buy leads, right? That's basically the perception is people either are interested, but don't really want, haven't really done the work to figure it out. Or they just think that you're a let you're less than for having bought them.
Yeah. And, uh, I guess I can kind of understand both perceptions, but I think the reason, I think the reason that people believe buying leads is somehow, um, I don't know, like you're, you don't get as much street cred for that is because, is this idea that you couldn't be profitable doing it that way, right? If I were to buy a commercial lines lead or just run PPC ads for small business, right? And they call, um it like like you if i had to go to liberty hanover chubb if i had to go to all these different

places and they call, if I had to go to Liberty, Hanover, Chubb, if I had to go to all these different places, Guard to get quotes, it is now by the second carrier that I'm logging into, that's going to have a different UI, that's going to be interested in slightly different information, that's going to have different discounts. My brain has already taken up way too many cycles and I'm now unprofitable.
And, and, and I think that's the thought process is he's like super smart agents who, you know, you know, talk in terms of like balance sheets and stuff and feel that somehow that makes them superior. They, they're like, Oh, well you don't get it.
Cause you have to buy leads and it's impossible to be profitable that way. So you just don't get it.
And, you know, I think as personal lines, quoting becomes more straightforward. Um, and now with this on commercial lines, I mean, I have dialed up every commercial, small business, commercial lead gen opportunity that exists.
I have them all coming in now because I can just plow through quotes all day long. I mean, it's freaking easy.
And I think it changes the game from a lead buying perspective. I think it opens up, it opens up, uh, and I'm gushing, but I just, we haven't talked in a while and I'm in a good mood today and I'm going, I'm, I'm going to Buffalo tomorrow.
So I'm super excited. I just think it opens up all these opportunities for small agencies who want to make that jump, but have never had the efficiencies to do so.
This allows them to do that with small commercial. It allows them to do it.
Yeah. And I won't, I won't touch on Buffalo because you know, my feelings about Buffalo, but no, Cam, Cam newton by the way so that i mean we still have that agreement that you owe me dinner once the patriots win the division just want to throw that cam newton cam newton was a gift to the buffalo bills it's gonna happen he's gonna come out he'll have a good first game then he'll be terrible for three games and then his shoulder will hurt and then the bills will win the afc east that's's what's going to happen.
I'm telling you right now. I disagree, but I'll touch on what you said before that because I guess that's more important for this conversation.
So it's funny because when we first started this, everyone said you're commoditizing small commercial and that's not what we want to do. And I feel the exact opposite.
We're rewarding carriers that have the technology to actually implement it and help their agents be more profitable, more efficient. And those agencies by nature are going to reward those carriers in return for doing it.
And that's proven true time and time again. So it's not commoditizing anything.
We consistently customize our platform for each individual carrier to make it fit what they're looking for. And their agencies are rewarding them by placing business with them.
So that's the most important thing to me is I don't treat it like personal lines because it's not, it's not a lowest premium wins. 18.4% of the premium in our system is the lowest that's bound.
It's extremely low. Um, most important thing for us is how do we reward these carriers that are actually trying to help their agencies be more profitable be better and in return how do we get the agencies to reward those carriers so i love that you brought up the c word because um this been calling bullshit on this, on this idea for basically since I started stepping on stages 10 years ago, because the things that I was talking about from a digital standpoint, 10 years ago, people are like, Oh, our clients don't go online.
That's the commodity business, but even personal lines, it's not, it's not come on. Cause so, so basically what you're saying is if you're saying that online rating and comparative rating in this type of nature is somehow commoditizing the business, then what you're saying is that what makes independent agents, not a commodity is their ability to log into carrier systems and stick information in that.
That's what you're saying, because that's all you're doing when you give a doing when you give an account sheet to a CSR and you say, hey, go market this. That's all they're doing.
They're taking the information, they're plugging it into systems, and then everyone goes, single sign-on. How come we don't have, you don't need single sign-on if you have one platform that's already API'd in.
And I got to say though, the carriers that we work with, and now we have 23 carriers that are contracted with us. The carriers that we're partnering with don't feel that way.
They don't feel like it's commoditizing. And there's, I mean, there's a reason behind it, but they're partnering with us because they think it's beneficial to the agency, not because they think they're being commoditized and they have to do it.
No one has to do this. We need carriers more than they'll ever need us.
I'm talking about me as an insure tech company, not you as an agency. We need them more than they need us.
And they're willing to do stuff like this because they recognize the value in it for the future, the future value and the current value. But there are going to be carriers that are going to say it's commoditized.
And those are the ones that we don't work with. Um, and that's, there, there's no loss to them.
Um, there's a loss to us, but at the end of the day, you're not going to change someone's mind. Uh, if they've already made that decision.
Yeah. Yeah.
So what has been, um, for you come, you know, going from working for a carrier to then working for your, for your dad and being an agent to now being, you know, running an insure tech company, what was one of the things that maybe has been a challenge that you didn't see coming? You know, not like, hey, you know, we got to get carriers on the platform. Like, that's obvious.
But like, was there anything that kind of snuck up on you that's been a challenge? Yeah, I mean, interviewing people. There's two things I don't like.
One, I buy snacks for the office. That was always done for me.
And two, interviewing people. That's the biggest challenge for me, though, honestly.
It's been making sure that everyone understands the goal of this company. When you're interviewing people, culture fits huge and understanding is huge.
And if you think that we're coming in here and the only goal is for our sales reps to close, you know, 150 agencies a month or whatever we tell them to do, then they're missing the point. The goal is to make sure that the agents using the system to the best of their ability to be more efficient and hiring new employees that are a outside the insurance industry, but B don't necessarily understand the independent agent model.
Teaching them what that means and how it's actually working for them was by far the hardest thing because I grew up in it. I knew what insurance was.
I knew what an independent agent was. Our director of sales knew, our COO knew.

And until we hired our first person outside of the three of us, I never thought that was going to be an issue. But training insurance is way harder than training technology.
When you talk to a non-insurance person, sometimes I feel like I'm talking to like a Martian or something. You know what I mean? Like when you're surrounded with other insurance people and there's like that one non-insurance person, and then you see that look start to creep over their face where like, you can just tell that they just don't, like, they're just not following along at all.
Like the words mean different things and like, like what you would, you know, uh, what you would think should happen doesn't happen that way. And, you know, all the nuances of our industry.

It's always so funny to watch someone's face when they're like their first real nerdy insurance conversation. They're just no idea.
All my conversations are nerdy insurance conversations nowadays. But it is.
You're right. It's entirely different.
And I think the people that build companies that came from outside the industry that try to sell to insurance agencies and insurance companies and go in with this hard sell tactic doesn't work. No.
You have to build a relationship with the person, show them where they're gaining their value instead of saying, look at all this stuff we did. It's better for you.
You should use this because you'll be better. that's not true they're they're great as is we're just trying to help them become more efficient and you have to train all these employees that you hire the last eight that we've hired we've had to train on insurance more so than technology yeah i believe that i believe that the first the first time like um the first time as as a vendor to an agency that you tell that agency owner that they either don't understand the problem or are somehow wrong in the way that they've chosen to solve the problem regardless of what they're doing, you have officially lost that agency as someone you're ever going to sell to.
like like that person what that person is doing is sitting there and I had to learn this the hard

way when I was at agency nation, right? Like I'm trying to sell advantage subscriptions for trustchoice.com and you know, whatever. And you, you, they're looking at you going, you son of a bitch, you have no idea how hard my job is and how many things I have to think about.
And you're telling me that I don't know what I'm doing. Like, I will kill you.
I will eat your face. Like, what are you talking about? And in your mind, you're like, wait a minute, you're still using a typewriter.
This keyboard thing is so much easier. And they're like, no, no, no, you don't understand.
This typewriter works great. I make $500,000 in personal income.
You're going to tell me this typewriter doesn't work? Yeah, people have to remember insurance agencies have existed for so long and there's still 38,000 of them because they're successful. They're doing something right.
So, you can't go in there and say you're doing something wrong. Fortunately for me, when they say I'm running an agency, I was the person that insure techs were selling to at our agency when I was on the agency side.
So I know, I know what the problem is. I know what a bad sales tactic is.
And we're not, it's about building the relationship. It really is.
Insurance is a hundred percent relationship driven. And if you think otherwise, you're an idiot.
And the truth is how things how products get sold in this industry is 100% agent to agent referral. That's what it is.
I mean, and all the insurance, insurance groups that I'm part of, you know, for whatever the product, you know what I mean? Like, like, I just I just signed up for stamps.com. And I because I was asking people like, Hey, have you ever used this tool? You know, it's like the silliest, it seems silly, right? It's like, you know, I need to mail shit.
I don't like going in the freaking post office all the time and getting stamps. How do you stamps.com? It's all I use it.
It works great. It's, you know, blah, blah, blah.
And it's like, and I probably wouldn't have purchased it if I hadn't seen two or three other agents go, yeah, we use it. Yeah, that's what we use.
And there's different services. And I just was like, okay, this is easy.
It's pretty cheap. You know, I don't send that many letters, but I don't certainly feel like driving and getting stamps all the time.
And sometimes I send bigger, bigger stuff. And every service is like that.
Every single one over, you know, from CRM to agency management system, to telephone system, to every tool in the agency, agents are constantly talking about them. Yeah.
And if you don't get referred by another agency, really, I mean, the hardest part is getting the first one on a new product. Yeah.
Because if you're the first one, you're the only one trying it out. And that was, I mean, that was literally Mark Duffy,uffy, Chris Paredes so that was the for us they were the two yeah there were our first couple agencies that started using it and then it spread but you're right everything needs to be agent to agent because it's a small community as many agents as there are it's a super small community yeah and and and I kind of at first um when I first kind of broke out of the Murray group, not necessarily when I left, but when I first started visiting other associations and spending more time with other agents at first, I didn't really understand.
I didn't understand that nature of the business, how, how, you know, you and I could be bitter rivals in terms of, you know, we're both in the same town and we're looking for the same advertising opportunities, but then we can go on the golf course and talk about sales tactics and tools and, ah, this, this marketing rep's giving me a hard time, you know, how do you deal with it? And that, that aspect of our industry, I feel like, is very unique.

And I also feel, and I was actually talking to Donyell Smink on the episode that will have come out right before this one, about how the industry has become even more collaborative and agents communicate even more. So if you, you know, you think about like, what was that marketing company in Rhode Island that burned at every bridge? Astonished results, right? You think about those guys and, you know, they're like writing these deals and they're cutting this guy like an amazing deal.
And then this guy over here, they're basically taking his first born and in order to pay for the deal that they cut this guy over here. And like, you know, back then, I mean, so that was probably 10, 15 years ago, about 10, 12 years ago now, back then they could kind of get away with that because, you know, there was today you, you do one of those bad deals and you know, 5,000 agents in IOA know tomorrow they know tomorrow you you treat someone poorly like that and the next day everybody knows and you know people start to pump the brakes on that vendor so you have to be much um you know you just have to be more careful in how you treat and obviously you should treat people the right way but yeah you can't get away with that smarminess no i think that's the most important thing you should be doing that anyways but at least now there's some some justifiable action that can be had against you if you don't treat people the right way and there's a lot of companies in this insure tech space in my space that are a little sketchy they do things the wrong way um so when we started you know the most important thing to us like i said is the culture how do we make sure that we're always upfront, honest, transparent with everybody? And hopefully we've held to that across the board for all of our employees.
Yeah. No, I certainly haven't heard a bad thing.
So I want to talk a little bit about your origin story, and i've gushed a little bit um and now i want to talk a little bit more about the future right so um different parts of the country different agency uh different carrier mixes carriers the number one number one thing you know more carriers helps more agents because the more carriers are on the platform and this is kind of the chicken and the egg with everybody, but I will say if you are a carrier, if you work for a carrier in any capacity that can help connect with Tarmica, I would encourage you to do so because this type of relationship is, this is where it's going for small business.

And, you know, I know, I know some pretty bad-ass agents that are literally just waiting for like a couple of carrier relationships to fall, which may or may not already be in the, in the works.

And bam, they're going to be on and moving. So, you know, where, what do you see as some

of your biggest challenges moving forward and, and kind of getting past those? What is the future

of the going to be on and moving. So, you know, where, what do you see as some of your biggest challenges moving forward and, and kind of getting past those? What does the future look like? Like, where are you going with this thing? Yeah, I think the carrier, the carrier stuff was difficult at first, for the first year of operation, getting carriers is hard, even, even, you know, last year was difficult.
But this year, it's really all come together for us. Persistence, hard work, getting those carrier relationships, showing them the value was important.
So that hurdle has been hopefully crossed now. And we've passed through the most difficult part as an insured tech company, which is building relationships with insurance companies.
But now, I mean, for us, the biggest hurdle moving forward is understanding, and this is every startup in the world, is understanding how to scale responsibly. Not being too aggressive, not hiring too fast, not doing anything crazy, and actually understanding where we need people, which for us is customer success.
I mean, that's the most important part for us is, you know, if you're an agency quoting and there's a technical error, or if there's a question you have, you need someone to call, you call you need a spokesperson at Tarmica so that's where we've really focused our energy right now and it's been huge it's been working yeah next biggest hurdle for us is figuring out we're currently in the process of personal lines right yeah and figuring out which states to start in how many agents to start with it's the same issue we had with commercial lines is which states to start in, how many agents. And, you know, figuring that out, understanding who's going to use it the most, who can benefit the most from it as our beta testers personal lines, that's important.
And we have a couple already. So, you know, we got Bradley Flowers down in Alabama.
We have you, we have Matt Namoli. We have a bunch of beta testers that are going to do personal lines.
Zach and Ryan from Coverage Direct. But that's probably our focus right now is how do we continue to grow the commercial line side with the team we have and then hire this whole other engineering team, this whole other sales team for personal lines now.
And that's what we're in the process of now i'm i'm just the workflow that you guys have i'm so excited for personal lines too um because it's just you know i i think i want to give i want to give credit where credit is due because pl raider and and uh easy links tool like you know they blaze they blazed a trail that that did not exist. I mean, they sold a lot of carriers.
I'm building out the technology for those tools. When the idea of comparative rating was just bringing it up was like blaspheming.
But I think there is tremendous opportunity from a workflow standpoint, from, um, a reporting and functionality standpoint that, you know, I still have to log into Internet Explorer to use PL Raider, right? That loses me accounts because I have to go to a whole separate computer because I'm a Mac user. So the fact that I'm a Mac user, I literally had someone say to me, well, maybe you should just stop being a Mac user.
And I was like, fuck you. Why should I have to stop being a Mac user? Which I can, you know, I've been on for 10 years.
Just because you haven't figured out that Chrome is the, you know, Chrome is the number one web browser on the internet. You're using a web browser that Microsoft doesn't even upload, doesn even update anymore and I'm the crazy person like I that's hard for me and I'm not I don't want to bang on PL reader because it works right the product works they have a ton of carriers they've done the hard work so I'm not banging on them but I do think there's a lot of I think there's a lot of green field there in that space.
And when you can log into one system and quote personal or commercial, that to me feels like a huge win too. And that's one of the reasons why we're doing it.
I mean, commercial is our primary focus, was our primary focus for a long time. And it continues to be a focus for the team that's currently here.
But, you know, we can have a separate team working on personal. We can have separate employees selling personal, being the customer support for personal and it's all in one system.
So it's easy for them to use. That's a challenge though, is making sure we scale responsibly on commercial while also building out personal.
And it's that, I mean, everyone always says what keeps you up at night. That's it.
That the only thing that keeps you up and that is how do we scale properly without overdoing it well I think that's smart because um you know I know a concern for me when I get involved because the emotional investment that you in time investment capital investment that you have in a tool is not insubstantial I think you know and I know you guys have an appreciation for this and I've heard the way that Chris talks to agencies on the phone. So I know he has an appreciation for this when he's, you know, we'll call it selling, but you know, building relationships, talking to people through the process.
But you know, one of the things that has been, you know, that really is like smacked me in the face as now an agency owner is when you make a decision on a piece of technology, whether it's a software or whatever, you're not just investing some money in it, right? There's like this mentality that, ah, it's 150 bucks a month, you know, it's like, well, it's not just that because now I have to build workflows, processes. I have to take brain cycles and figure out how to use the tool.
I have to teach my team how to use the tool, you know, and that's, that is probably more of a concern than necessarily just the price of the tool. And yeah, it could be $25 or $10,000 a month.
And it wouldn't make a difference if you don't actually use it. It's a waste.
Yeah. And I think that idea what you just said about, um, about, I think the concern is if I invest my time, energy and, and mental cycles, mental process into this tool in two years, are you just going to bounce and it's going to blow up or get sold to somebody, some system that I can't even use.
And now all of a sudden I'm left, you, you know, I got to find something new because that's scarier. I mean, I think that's a big reason why people still stick with applied is they're just like, I know they're always going to be here.
They're never going away. So even though I don't love them, maybe it's not perfect.
Although I know Epic is a, is a decent system. If you like the applied ecosystem, um, like they're never going away.
So you never have to have that concern. And I think that's a big part of it.
It is. I mean, it has to be right.
And I think one of the hardest parts of starting the company was my age. And one of the best things about telling people I'm not going anywhere is my age.
So what was once terrible is also a blessing. So starting a company at 25, people don't really trust you all

that much. What the hell do you know is a pretty common, it was pretty common up front.
And

fortunately, I mean, like I said, I grew up with a dad who worked in insurance for 40 years and

knows more than anyone I know about insurance, right? So I'm not going anywhere. I'm 27.
I have a long career ahead of me. I love this company.
I love doing what we're doing. I love our employees.
I think they're all awesome. I love doing this work.
So right now, I always say this, not planning on going anywhere. The other good news is even at 27, you have very adult hair and you look very mature, which is the opposite for me.
I'm almost 40, but I look like I'm like 17. So I'm not really sure.
I'm not sure. If I don't shave and you see all the grays in the beard and I look like I'm in my 40s.
Like that guy knows tech right there. He's been around for a while.
Exactly. Maybe I should just keep it so people think I'm a little bit older, but now it's, it is, like I said, it's a blessing to be able to say that, you know, I, one of the best things I've ever said is I, I always admit that I don't know what I don't know.
Yeah. I mean, I know what I don't know.
Sorry. I I'll tell you straight up if I don't have an answer.
And that's a good thing because when you're talking to agencies and carriers, they have way more experience than I ever will. ever will yeah they give advice they tell you how they think things should work and you have to listen and actually implement their advice and if you don't um you're going to be obsolete too yeah I was having this conversation with Carruthers the other day about um it's it's easy to tell the individuals who have never sat at the big kids table before, right? When they've never had the humility to sit there with their glass of scotch and just shut the hell up and listen to people who have done really amazing things, grown very successful companies, just talk about stuff.
Just not felt, just listened. And, uh, I, you know, I think you, I mean, what I hear you saying is you were lucky enough to, you know, being around your dad to get some of that.
I unfortunately had to wait much longer to learn that lesson until I was part of trusted choice.com. I, I had the opportunity to sit with a lot of people and listen to a lot of agents who credibly successful, you know, the Spencer Holdens and, you know, all these different agents and agency owners talk about the business.
And it really, it helps you understand how, what we're actually doing. You know, we're not just like selling a policy to someone.
We're making sure that someone's life isn't ruined on the worst day that ever happens to them. And I think it's so easy to lose sight of how big a thing we are actually doing.
And that's why I hate that word commodity because all a tool like Tarmco is allowing us to do by, by lining up commercial small or small business carriers against each other. All it's allowing us to do is focus more on the making sure that things are right.
So we, cause we're not thinking about the transactional shit. Like, Oh, I didn't punch that number.
You know, I didn't punch the sales number correctly into the seventh system that I'm rating today. And, um, and what allows us to be better.
What's the focus though? If you're spending too much time quoting, is your focus trying to get all this data into the system? Is your focus finding the right coverage for your client? It's probably entering the data into your system. So speed up the process that's tedious and unrealistic and focus on selling your client the best coverage that they need for their specific business because at the end of the day agencies are the experts on it and that's what's important so i know this is probably sounding for everyone like a 51 minute commercial for tarmica and i guess in part maybe it is but i don't mean it to be i just um you, it's hard for me to be anything other than authentic in that I just believe in what you're doing, man.
I, since the first time we spoke on the phone, I'm obviously I jokingly was talking, you know, talking about parody. So, you know, in the intro and stuff, but I have been, I've seen your vision since day one.
I've, I've believed in your vision and, you know, you, you know, being part of the advisory committee and being able to help shape it is an honor.

But whether I was part of that or not, I think what you are doing is going to help so many agencies sustain through the storm of small business, you know, um, that, and, and, and, and thrive and potentially thrive if they can work on things like workflows and that kind of stuff and, and really move. Um, I just, I think I'm just a huge believer in what you're doing, huge proponent.
And, um, I couldn't, I, you know, I, I just feel, uh, I feel like I'm part of a very cool club to be able to, you know, give feedback and, and, and whatever regard and help grow this thing. Cause, um, I think it's important to our industry.
I appreciate that. That's, that's huge for us to hear from an agency.
Um, especially, I mean, you're a new agency too, and you're growing quickly. So it's cool for us to hear that.
Yeah. I mean, I, I know the last couple weeks since at least in my in the ecosystem that I operate it feels like things are opening up people are starting to take phone calls um calls are starting to come in uh I don't know I don't know that I would be able to scale this business if I didn't have Tarmica I don't I don't think that I I think it would be impossible.
That guy yesterday, again, not a huge account. Some of the more douchey members of our audience are going to be like, that was $553 bop.
But the idea is that's one of what will be 20 accounts. And if I can write $2,500 bops in 20 minutes at a time, I'm making money.
I'm making real money. And those accounts are going to renew and I'm going to get their personal lines.
I'm going to sell them life insurance and they're going to send me referrals. And that's how the agency is going to scale.
And if I was spending all that time logging into each individual system, seeing if they had an appetite, figuring out what the best rate is, it wouldn't be possible. So I appreciate you.
I appreciate the work you do. Obviously, you know, I text you random shit all the time too, and you actually respond.
So that's fun. But, dude, I wish you nothing but the best.
And, you know, I'm sure this won't be the last time you're on the show. But where can people, besides uh, T-A-R-M-I-K-A.com,

where can, um, where can people learn more about you? Hey, people can learn more about me by texting me. That's the way I get in touch with people.
So, uh, or you can email me ragav.jana

at tarmica.com. And I'm more than happy to talk at any point.
Dude. Appreciate you, man.
Be good. Thanks, Brian.
Thank you. Thank you.
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