RHS 034 - Carey Wallace Explains How to Put Agent & Association Data to Work

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Speaker 9 Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the show. My name is Ryan Hanley.
I am your host, as always.

Speaker 9 And today, our guest is Carrie Wallace, someone that I have an incredibly high amount of respect and esteem for, and was just excited to get on the podcast and talk through what she's doing today.

Speaker 9 And what that means is, I met Carrie, she was the COO of OIA, the Ohio Insurance Agents, the Association for the State of Ohio.

Speaker 9 And I've always, she's always done an incredible job, and OIA is a standard-bearer for what an association can do and should do for the independent agents that they serve.

Speaker 9 Now, Carrie has kind of taken that and

Speaker 9 parlayed it into

Speaker 9 being the CEO of Intel Agents, an association-driven data initiative, which is taking data from both agents and from the associations, state associations in which they are a part of, and combining all that information to deliver insights and best practices and really

Speaker 9 just effective data resources that agencies can use to increase their efficiency, their output, and ultimately their valuation.

Speaker 9 And Carrie's just a tremendous resource for our industry and it was such a pleasure to have her on the show and I'm happy to be able to share her insights with you.

Speaker 9 Before we we get there though, we got to pay the bills. We got to talk about my friends at Tarmica.
Tarmica is making all your wildest comparative rating dreams come true with their platform.

Speaker 9 It's API driven. You're getting real-time

Speaker 9 quotes back from carriers that you can then access directly into those carrier systems and you're not dealing with, well, I quoted it this way, but it was really just screen scraping.

Speaker 9 So now when I actually put the data in, the rate comes back different.

Speaker 9 And then you're constantly talking to your prospects about why the rate that you initially gave them isn't the rate that actually gets bound. And Tarmica is solving that problem.

Speaker 9 And the thing that really initially drew me to Tarmica is that a lot of people that I have tremendous amount of respect for are in the Tarmica ecosystem.

Speaker 9 And that is one of the primary signs to me that a piece of technology

Speaker 9 has a real shot of helping agents because there's just certain people that don't get involved in projects if they don't have the best interests of agents in mind.

Speaker 9 And that's what initially drew me there.

Speaker 9 Then I saw the tech, and now I am days away from having my installation ready of Tarmica, and I just can't wait to get to work with Tarmica and my own agency, Rogue Risk. So go to T-A-R-M-I-K-A.com.

Speaker 9 T-A-R-M-I-K-A.com, Tarmica. Check out Tarmica today.
Get a demo. If you like it, use it.
If you don't, whatever. But if you do, and I think you will,

Speaker 9 I think there's a there there. So, all right, guys, with that, let's get on to Carrie Wallace on the Ryan Hanley show.
Let's do this.

Speaker 8 I would never, ever change those

Speaker 8 days for anything under the sun. And honestly, I'm in startup mode here, too.
So if you ever want to commiserate on the startup life, I am your girl.

Speaker 10 Well, I'm going to take you up on that sometime. I,

Speaker 10 you know,

Speaker 10 it's been very interesting. Just, you know, and I've said this on so many podcasts already, and I'll probably say it a hundred more times, but like,

Speaker 10 I never gave

Speaker 10 how the insurance technology,

Speaker 10 like how hard it actually is to piece it all together. Like, I never gave it its due.

Speaker 10 I, um,

Speaker 10 I gave it lip service for sure,

Speaker 10 but

Speaker 10 but

Speaker 10 never actually gave it its due because it is difficult to piece it all together.

Speaker 8 Here's the thing. It's not just technology.
Like, if you're an independent agent, you're an entrepreneur, you got to pick who are the partners you want to have. What's the staff look like?

Speaker 8 What's the technology look like? What niche am I going to go after? I mean,

Speaker 8 it's not like anyone says, hey,

Speaker 8 here's the road to success. Just do these five things and you're going to be fine.
And it looks and feels different in every town, every agency. You know, it's not, I hats off.

Speaker 8 Like, I love what you're doing, but I love learning about independent agents because they are some of the

Speaker 8 smartest people and some of the gussiest people I think I've gotten to spend some time with. So, anyway, I'm super excited for you, Ryan.

Speaker 10 Oh, well, thanks. You know, I think

Speaker 10 the interesting

Speaker 10 it really is

Speaker 10 independent agencies really are unique snowflakes so up until

Speaker 10 I you know maybe a couple years ago I started to really get a feel for this but probably up until I started this process I did not quite realize how many different ways that you could piece together an agency all the various decisions you had to make and

Speaker 10 most importantly, how each decision played off of each other. You know what I mean? You choose this CRM.

Speaker 10 Well, this CRM really only works with these agency management systems and it doesn't do this thing that you really want.

Speaker 10 And then, and then even that's way down the pipeline because what you really want to start with is what kind of agency do you want to be? What kind of clients do you want to be?

Speaker 10 What do you want your lifestyle to be? And then all the technology drips out of that. But then one of those pieces of technology doesn't work with this thing over here.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 10 So it's like, it is like all these moving parts that are constantly moving around each other. And

Speaker 10 I definitely let, there was definitely a week or two where that got to me a little bit, where

Speaker 10 I let it kind of start to frustrate me. And I started to

Speaker 10 just be like, man,

Speaker 10 this is driving me nuts. And

Speaker 10 then I just said, screw it. I'm just going to start making decisions.
So once I started doing that,

Speaker 10 things started to figure themselves out and right or wrong.

Speaker 10 I have a tech stack and I have a target client and I have some marketing copy and in the next week, I'll probably, I shouldn't say probably, in the next week, I'll be in market selling policies.

Speaker 8 That's fantastic. But you're right.
Like, here's the thing. If you actually wait for all the right decisions to come to you, you never make a decision.
That's the problem.

Speaker 8 So, and they are so interconnected and there's consequences, there's upsides and downsides to every single you know decision but the beauty is you're the entrepreneur you're the one that gets to do this and you know you got to live with some of the decisions and some of them you can remake at some point but um yeah you can't you can't just not make a decision that's not going to work so anyway i'm i'm i'm very excited for you and i'm i'm very interested as i watch you um share the experience for others because i've heard those stories in offices, but no one's really outwardly talking about it in the same way that you're doing.

Speaker 8 So it's super refreshing. Thank you for sharing your journey.

Speaker 10 Well, thanks.

Speaker 10 I don't know that I should be thanked because

Speaker 10 I'm hoping I don't direct people. I've tried to be very cognizant of not

Speaker 10 trying to direct people. You know what I mean? Like today I produced a video.
The one I published was about choosing a market access provider and

Speaker 10 I chose Indium.

Speaker 10 And Indium comes with trade-offs, right? I mean,

Speaker 10 there's a lot of positives, obviously, and there's a whole reason why I chose them. But then there's things that you're trading and then there's decisions inside of them.

Speaker 10 And I don't want to say, I chose this. So this is what.

Speaker 10 So you're like stupid if you don't make the same decision as me. Like that.
I want, I'm trying to be very cognizant not to say that.

Speaker 10 I'm trying to give people constructs or like thought experiments that they can go through to come up with their own decision, whatever that decision ends up being.

Speaker 10 And then walking through the decision I made, you know, and I'll tell you, the really hard part about all of this is the people side, right? So like you, you want to choose a,

Speaker 10 I'll just say like an agency management vendor, right? Well, there's really good people at every agency management system.

Speaker 10 And you don't, you know, if you choose one, I, you know, I don't want, and I've become friends with so many people, you know, kind of coming from the other world, you know, coming from

Speaker 10 the broader world. Like I, if I choose, by choosing someone, I can't help but,

Speaker 10 you know, alienate a little bit someone else. So I'm trying to be very cognizant of that, too.
And

Speaker 10 that's, that's probably the hardest part is like,

Speaker 10 I like doing business with people that I really like.

Speaker 10 And that actually made the decision. And this is maybe my best piece of advice for anyone is, is like, do business with people you like, even if the tool isn't perfect.
Because

Speaker 10 doing business with people you like is so much more fun and interesting, and I feel like productive than trying to pick the perfect tool, but maybe you're working with people you don't know that well or people who don't know you or

Speaker 10 don't aren't as invested in your success.

Speaker 8 I would probably add to that, Ryan. Do business with people you

Speaker 8 like, but definitely that you can trust and are aligned with what's important to you.

Speaker 8 You know, like we live in a world that if you can't find that alignment,

Speaker 8 you can have the best product in the world, but if there's no trust and there's no alignment in why you're doing what you're doing and what you might do with

Speaker 8 the information that you share with the people you decide to do business with, then that's far worse than doing than having a tool that may have some limitations.

Speaker 8 You know, so know like and trust is important there's a reason people do business with people they know like and trust so i couldn't agree more and you know it's funny some of what you're saying you know i live in a world where we have a ton of uh yeah i meet a ton of people and i like all of them and there's not many demos that weren't absolutely beautiful so um but we have to be able to be fairly agnostic but give our agents um the insights that we can provide to help them navigate some of the decisions that you're talking about.

Speaker 8 You know, you choosing a market access provider had pros and cons.

Speaker 8 We were able to put it in data and say, so what's your average commission rate compared to other agencies that have made different decisions and what's the impact on your agency?

Speaker 8 So, and I'm not here to tell you which one's right or wrong. I'm here to tell you this is what the universe looks like.
This is what it looks like related to you.

Speaker 8 And how can you, and here's the insight so you can make some decisions about your business. And we're here to help you make those decisions or help bounce ideas off of.

Speaker 8 So I feel the same way. Like I will never tell an agent the perfect way to do this is choosing X, Y, and Z.
No, it doesn't, that's not how this works at all. So anyway.

Speaker 10 Do you think that

Speaker 10 do you think that that is a bit of a pendulum that that mentality? Because I see. I completely agree with that mentality, obviously.
I think that that is versus

Speaker 10 I'd say the other side of that is like the influencer market who are like, here's how you do this, you know what I mean? Or you want to sell 10 more of these, do this thing. And

Speaker 10 it's very much like, here's the exact way to do it.

Speaker 10 And I feel like the let's, you know, I feel like giving people frameworks, constructs, you know, whatever you want to call them to make the decision that's right for them is a far more advantageous way to help people than to just tell them what to do.

Speaker 8 I couldn't agree more. I just couldn't agree more.
Here's the thing: I think the agency of the future are the people that can marry relationships with technology and data. So, the data part,

Speaker 8 there's metrics that are real.

Speaker 8 You know, you do so many of this, it's going to have this kind of outcome as long as you have the right technology in place and the right people and they're trained the right way.

Speaker 8 The beauty is there's other factors. There's a culture to consider, There's people to consider.
There's relationships to consider. So there is no perfect recipe.
There's only these guides to say,

Speaker 8 here's a benchmark or here's a gut check for you. But there are, there's gray in the decisions that you're making, you know? So I couldn't agree more.

Speaker 8 And anyone who tells you that it's all black and white, I think that that's that, I'd beware of that because they don't understand the business we're in.

Speaker 10 The other part of this that I find, and I want to get into what you're doing and talk more about everything that you have going on too. I just, I find this to be so interesting.

Speaker 10 The other thing I found so interesting is,

Speaker 10 again, and I feel like I'm, I feel like I'm starting, I feel like starting this agency now at this point in my life is, it's a very odd experience because I was an agent, then I went into this other world where, you know, everything is on a national level, you know, meeting thousands of agents, you know, many of which are very, very successful, deep into their careers.

Speaker 10 And now coming all the way back to the beginning,

Speaker 10 it's odd to, you know, things that I, piece of advice that I would give to someone

Speaker 10 who's five years in or whatever, I, you know,

Speaker 10 I could never make that decision today. You know what I mean? Like, like, like Indium, right? If I'm five years in

Speaker 10 or I'm pulling a book over and I already have a book that's a substantial size, maybe I don't, maybe I don't go with a market access provider. Maybe, maybe I don't do that.
Maybe I still do.

Speaker 10 But, you know, today, it's almost, it was almost like a necessity, like to get to certain markets without having all these demands from all these different carriers, but to still be able to provide a decent portfolio of markets, it was an absolute necessity that I had to meet.

Speaker 10 So it's like, and my point in saying that again is more like at each stage of this business, the decisions become very different as well. It's not like you can just pick something and grow into it.

Speaker 10 It's like there's constantly evolving stages of what we do based on how you're building your agency. And then, you know,

Speaker 10 a mutual friend of ours, Jason Cass, he's kind of going the other way.

Speaker 10 He's moving his business from being a home and auto shop to more of a large mid-market commercial shop and he's reducing the number of clients he has and that's changing things.

Speaker 10 So it's just so interesting how everyone,

Speaker 10 how unique an independent insurance agency is based on so many different, there's so many inputs that lead to your uniqueness. It just is,

Speaker 10 it's just been very eye-opening and

Speaker 10 I've developed even more respect for the people that do this work.

Speaker 8 I couldn't agree. So here's the thing, Ryan.
You might make the same decision in a different stage or life cycle of your business, but it could be for a completely different reason.

Speaker 8 Or you could make the opposite decision, you know, 10 years from now, you know, just like you said, Jason Cass, he made the decisions he made in order to grow his business to where it is today, where now he has different opportunities, different risks, different factors to consider, which lead him to a completely different.

Speaker 8 So I guess the point is the agent also of the future needs to know when to evolve, how to evolve, and what things to be constantly asking because our marketplace is changing as rapidly as all these decisions face every single agent that's trying to run an agency.

Speaker 8 You know, and

Speaker 8 that's the thing we want to really be in a place where we can help an agent navigate, if I want to change, where do I start? Where are the opportunities within my agency?

Speaker 8 What are some things I should be thinking about?

Speaker 8 Another really good mutual friend of ours I think Jeff Roy said data is only good unless you put it into action yeah data is just data otherwise so you know I

Speaker 8 couldn't agree more and I love that your thinking is that way because this is not a set it and forget it business this is a set it live with it adjust measure it adjust measure you know that's that's the business you're getting in And yeah, I think, again, I love that you're sharing the journey because maybe the agents that that have been in this business for a long time might rethink and say, hmm, maybe I should be adjusting and rethinking some of the things that I decided.

Speaker 8 And maybe there's some opportunity here that I haven't seen. So, yeah, it's fun to watch.

Speaker 10 So let's talk a little bit about you. So I first met you as the chief operating officer at OIA, the Ohio Insurance Agents Association, which actually, I think,

Speaker 10 was the first time when it was combined or was it before it was combined? When did you join? You joined in 2009. So you were there

Speaker 10 well before

Speaker 10 when Big I and PIA came together.

Speaker 10 You were there before.

Speaker 8 So I met you the year after we merged. That's right.

Speaker 10 I believe.

Speaker 8 Yeah. So at the time, I was serving as the CFO.
So my background's finance.

Speaker 8 And, you know, one of one of the big things that I got to experience here was being able to merge the state affiliates of PIA and Big Eye.

Speaker 8 So, yeah, we met right after that.

Speaker 8 And I've been here for 10 years. So, yeah, but my job's completely evolved since then, obviously.
Yeah.

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 8 Yeah. So I've

Speaker 8 go ahead.

Speaker 10 No, no. So I was just going to ask you, before we get to

Speaker 10 Intel Agents, which I am incredibly interested in, I've just been watching from afar. And,

Speaker 10 you know, I'm just, I want to spend most of our time talking about that. But I just have a couple of questions just from your time from at OIA, because

Speaker 10 watching and

Speaker 10 I don't want to say taking part in, but just being around you guys, speaking in a couple of the events and knowing so many of your people well,

Speaker 10 it's by far one of, if not the most successful merger of the two

Speaker 10 association groups into one.

Speaker 10 And then not just that,

Speaker 10 you guys are, you know, know,

Speaker 10 been, wow, let me start that again. OIA has been one of the most progressive and forward-thinking and supportive and

Speaker 10 willing to experiment.

Speaker 10 You know, you guys have really done some dynamic things and been a standard-bearer for what a state association can be and do

Speaker 10 for their agent members. um like i i'm just interested what do you think attributed to that Like,

Speaker 10 what was that like to be in there, work through that merger, and then come out of it and be so productive?

Speaker 8 Yeah, so thank you for that. I appreciate it.
I think the key to why that went the way that it did is because agents were 100%

Speaker 8 always put first.

Speaker 8 As we worked through that process, you know, it it was very apparent that in the state of Ohio, there were two organizations doing almost exactly the same services for independent agents in our state.

Speaker 8 We had a ton of overlap between the two organizations and it's not the best situation for an independent agent to have to choose why wouldn't it be one unit?

Speaker 8 Why wouldn't it be one strong voice for independent agents? So, you know, when the leadership aligned and our volunteer leaders aligned,

Speaker 8 you know, we have some of the best volunteer leaders in the state of Ohio that were instrumental in making that merger happen.

Speaker 8 And also, you know, once we were merged, it was like, okay, this is great, but how do we bring great value to independent agents today and in the future?

Speaker 8 Because when you're in a when you're in a state where there's two associations, you're competing.

Speaker 8 You're distracted and thinking the best thing we can do is grow this and our services and compete with that other organization.

Speaker 8 I think the cool thing is our agents recognize we're not competing with an association down the street from ourselves even before the merger.

Speaker 8 We're competing with other organizations that are thinking more progressively and we need to think more progressively. So step one, let's unify.

Speaker 8 Step two, let's start thinking about what really matters to independent agents and how we can help be their business advisors and bring them the resources they need and the services they need in order to grow their businesses.

Speaker 8 That's what we're here for. So I attribute it to, you know, we had alignment of thought around what a trade association really can do and be progressive as this marketplace changes.

Speaker 8 And also, you know, we had, we have some energy on our team that's really, you know, gotten behind that. We

Speaker 8 We will always be a trade association. We will always do those things.
That's at our core. But the needs of our agents are changing, and we spent a lot of time and energy on that.

Speaker 8 And said, so, what is our role in helping our agents navigate that?

Speaker 8 And that's really allowed us to surround ourselves with people that think and feel the same way and start reinventing what a trade association should really be.

Speaker 10 So much of what I saw too, as soon.

Speaker 10 having been a speaker at so many associations, and this is not to knock any association or anything, because I know everyone does the absolute best they can.

Speaker 10 But there was always a different energy when I went to one of your events. And I'm just interested like how it always felt like the people that you brought on board and

Speaker 10 new hires or just the individuals you had work. It was almost like there was always this sense of energy about

Speaker 10 them. And like, how are you able, as you know, being part of the leadership team, like, how are you able to

Speaker 10 build that culture? Because it feels like

Speaker 10 it feels very, you know, when people classically think of an association, right, you think kind of same old stuff, like again, and I don't necessarily, I'm not trying to paint a picture, I'm saying what I think the perception is.

Speaker 10 And you guys have broken that. I think Oklahoma does a great job.
North Carolina does a great job. There's many associations that do it.

Speaker 10 But I'm just interested, like, how are you able to keep people so engaged and interesting and bringing energy culturally?

Speaker 8 Yeah, so

Speaker 8 I will tell you, for us,

Speaker 8 anytime we bring agents in to talk to our staff about their experience, or we go in an agent's office and hear their experiences and learn about them, that is one of the most inspiring things you can do.

Speaker 8 And we, you know, I think I quoted, I think I made 180 agent visits over the last three years.

Speaker 8 Like I sat in someone's office and talked to them in their environment and heard their story or helped helped them in some way.

Speaker 8 If you're disconnected, you really don't understand what you're doing or who you're doing it for and can't possibly know what they would need you to do to help them.

Speaker 8 I think we've done and so have many of our peer states gotten super close to our agents as close as we possibly can and then made them the center of everything we're doing.

Speaker 8 If you're not doing that and it's, you know, I think there's a disconnect. So that's where our passion and energy comes from.

Speaker 8 If you walk through our building and through our office, I mean, there's no mistake who we serve because every photograph, every

Speaker 8 thought is about an independent agent that we've served. And so that's super important.
We have a constant reminder of why we do what we do.

Speaker 8 And, you know, I think it, I know it, we, when we bring a new staff person on, that's that's number one thing.

Speaker 8 Like we share story after story after story of the people that we're serving and why we're doing this. So, you know, I think that's key.

Speaker 10 And now

Speaker 10 you've transitioned into

Speaker 10 being the CEO of Intel Agents, right? I'm saying that right. Not Intel Agents.
You are saying it right. Yep, Intel Agents.

Speaker 10 And I'm just, I'm incredibly interested in this for many reasons, but I would love for you to share with everyone listening that may have not heard of Intel Agents before.

Speaker 10 Just, you know, give us the give us the elevator pitch.

Speaker 8 Sure. So Intel Agents was founded last August.

Speaker 8 It is a data analytics company that has built a platform for independent agents to

Speaker 8 share their information, but also get data insights in order to grow their businesses. You know, the associations are inherently

Speaker 8 we have the opportunity to learn so much about the people we serve. They we interact in the same way in every single state with our independent agents and we have a,

Speaker 8 we only serve independent agents so everyone we interact with is is in our marketplace. So we are positioned as a trade association to know a ton about independent agents.

Speaker 8 And historically, we use the information we gathered for the transaction or the purpose only

Speaker 8 only for that purpose. And what I mean by that is you come to our

Speaker 8 annual events, you register, you tell us something about your agency, and we do that to process your registration. You come to our education class, same thing.

Speaker 8 You give us a birthday, it's to get your CE.

Speaker 8 You become a member of our association, you share with us your premium volume.

Speaker 8 Never had we thought about marrying the data that we got from education and the data that we got from membership to say, wow, did you know in our marketplace,

Speaker 8 55% of our agents are going to transition the ownership of their agency, and that means $6.5 billion is going to TradeHance. We weren't thinking that way.

Speaker 8 So Intel Agents is an organization that is saying, what data do trade associations have on independent agents that can help independent agents grow their business?

Speaker 8 We're a great resource of that data and we are aggregating it and sharing it with independent agents in order to help them work on their business not just in their business

Speaker 10 so what kind of stuff are people getting out of it like you know i see you know when i was when i was kind of doing research you know i'm looking at um talent acquisition operational efficiencies organic growth brokering acquisitions between other um other agencies.

Speaker 10 So like, how would this help you acquire new talent? Like, let's just take that, that case study as an example.

Speaker 8 So we started with the data that we have obviously and the data that we have was operational in nature. So we understood what the premium volume were for our agencies.

Speaker 8 We knew what their carrier mix was. We know what their staff size is.
We know what their birth dates are.

Speaker 8 We did not have compensation to start with, but we have this deep knowledge in all the other areas. The first step was to launch salary surveys in every single state that we operated.

Speaker 8 I guess it's important for me to tell you that this started in Ohio and we now are in 14 states. We'll grow probably to 19 or 20 states by the end of this year.

Speaker 8 We started with 2,200 agencies in our database and we're now over 20,000 agencies across the footprint as we're in today. So in the states where we did not have

Speaker 8 compensation, it's the number one area that agents want to know. They want to know, am I compensating fairly? Do I have the right staff structure?

Speaker 8 What's the productivity I should be expecting out of my staff? What benefits should I offer?

Speaker 8 You know, what's the generational health and how do I transfer knowledge from one generation to the other across the roles within my agency?

Speaker 8 Your people, the people in independent agents are their greatest asset. And so it's the number one thing that they want to know.
So we launched salary surveys in order to create those benchmarks.

Speaker 8 And in every state where we operate, that benchmark has to be at 20% before we publish. And that is far deeper than any national

Speaker 8 benchmark that you'll find. And it's actionable.
So now, you don't look at a national productivity number, let's say, and you know, when do I hire an XCSR?

Speaker 8 Well, you can look at productivity numbers, look at your numbers, and say, oh, it's probably my people are a little too overworked. I need to hire at this point.

Speaker 8 When you look at a national number, those productivity numbers are completely skewed in certain marketplaces. Now we're giving you the standards in your marketplace so you can make that decision.

Speaker 8 You know, for instance, Ohio can't sell workers' comp.

Speaker 8 So the productivity numbers in Ohio will look completely different in a state that can sell workers' comp.

Speaker 8 So we've taken the guesswork out of some of these standards that are published and made it very relevant, not only in your state, but sometimes all the way down to the region.

Speaker 8 And right now we do it by region, by size of agency across the state. And then we also tell you in your marketplace who are the fastest growing agencies.

Speaker 8 So you can start to think of, well, maybe there's a different way I can organize that would utilize my resources differently and allow me to have those growth rates.

Speaker 8 So the whole idea is how do we provide the information that's relevant enough for an agent to take action? And we're there to say,

Speaker 8 you know, here's some things you should be thinking about when we present and other agencies, here's what they're thinking about.

Speaker 8 We now can become an advisor to be the story around the numbers that they're looking at.

Speaker 10 Have you gotten any pushback from agencies that are worried about sharing data?

Speaker 8 You know, really they want to know when I give you my data, how does it say stay secure and who else is going to have access to it? But when they say, when they see,

Speaker 8 you know, it's really in the aggregate, we only provide your data to you, they're fine. And here's the thing, Ryan, these people have been doing business with us.

Speaker 8 They know, like, and trust us because we're in business to help them.

Speaker 8 There's not many other organizations they're ever going to come across that has a more aligned mission than their trade association.

Speaker 8 So Intel Agents is 100% owned by trade associations, which are all led by independent agents. So our mission will never vary from an independent agent.
And I think that is

Speaker 8 our differentiator. You know, there are other benchmarks out there.
There's plenty of places for you to share your data, but are they aligned with what you're doing as an independent agent?

Speaker 8 I think that's the key. So,

Speaker 8 people ask questions about data, but I haven't gotten much pushback at all.

Speaker 8 In fact, it's you know, it's refreshing to know that it's actionable and it's something that I can put some weight in and start making a decision. They want partners that want to help them.

Speaker 10 Yeah, it kind of comes, it kind of comes full circle to the conversation we're having very early on about technology vendors. Just we want to do business with people that we know, like, and trust.

Speaker 10 That that is, you know, that's that's one of the reasons why.

Speaker 10 And I'm interested in your take on this. So

Speaker 10 I have been using this term like agent-optimized agency, mashing up traditional kind of the classic

Speaker 10 virtues of an independent agency in the digital space. But

Speaker 10 I have no desire, nor do I believe that the future is a completely digital transaction.

Speaker 10 I do believe that there are lines of business that will probably go more that way, but I always believe there's going to need to be an agent involved. And I'm positive, you believe the same thing.

Speaker 8 But

Speaker 8 yeah, 100%. No doubt about it.

Speaker 10 How do we continue to leverage,

Speaker 10 you know, i guess the the part that that i'm super interested in is i say that i have no idea where the line is right where the line is it skewed more towards digital is it skewed more towards the humans is it you know like i guess i'm i'm interested just interested in your take you know on on where you see some of these things going because i almost feel like and i could be wrong about this but i almost feel like there's a lot of opportunity while everyone is rushing hardcore digital.

Speaker 10 There's almost an opportunity if you can become more human, like not slow and antiquated, but just more human, if that makes sense. And I'm just interested in your take.

Speaker 8 So, Ryan, it's so funny. You know, I had one agent that was talking to me, and they weren't using this analogy, but it's so similar.
They said, you know, everybody's running towards commercial.

Speaker 8 Commercial is where they go. If I want to grow my agency, I got to be commercial.
And he's like, I'm growing personal lines hand over fist.

Speaker 8 I think the line is going to be different for different agencies.

Speaker 8 And it really matters what you're focused on as that agency owner, what the culture is of your agency, because for as many consumers that are out there, their needs are varied.

Speaker 8 And there's going to be the right agency for all different kinds of consumers.

Speaker 8 I couldn't agree with you more that there's certain lines of business that digital is much easier and

Speaker 8 much better fit.

Speaker 8 But I have, you know, I have, I'm a consumer as well. And I got to tell you, knowing that I have someone who actually cares about my family, that I can ask questions and

Speaker 8 has actually opened my eyes as a consumer in ways I didn't expect.

Speaker 8 You know, I think being more human and actually being

Speaker 8 caring about the things that I care about and helping me understand how to best protect it is never going to go away. Our lives are getting so complex and the risk is going to get even more complex.

Speaker 8 And you want someone who's actually knowledgeable that can help you through it. So, you know, Ryan, I have two girls.
I have a 21-year-old and a 20-year-old. And

Speaker 8 we actually were, we were USAA clients for years because I'm a military family and, you know, that's just the way it was. I'm not today.

Speaker 8 But I thought I had the best insurance on the planet before I came here. You know, I'm elite.
I get to have USAA.

Speaker 8 I'll tell you, I was one of the most underinsured people you probably had ever met. And my girls will never leave the independent agent that we do business with.
He has,

Speaker 8 he's gone above and beyond with our family. And, you know, relationships matter, even to the next generation.

Speaker 8 So it's just, I think that it depends on the consumer and there will be agencies out there that will meet those consumers' needs. But to say that we're going to be 100% digital,

Speaker 8 I strongly disagree.

Speaker 8 I do not think that's the future.

Speaker 10 So I'll give you an interesting example from my own life.

Speaker 10 These are all the little things that you don't think about. Like I had to choose a bank, right? So I have, I'm with a credit union that I've been with for.

Speaker 10 got most of my basically since i opened my first bank account because my mom works for the state so i'm with this credit union and they're great for personal banking they're a little antiquated but they're great for personal banking, whatever.

Speaker 10 Well, you know,

Speaker 10 the fiduciary responsibility, keeping my money separate, I wanted to get a different bank for rogue risk. So you got to, this is a decision you have to make, right?

Speaker 10 And it's at face value, you're kind of like, ah, a bank is a bank is a bank. And then you start thinking about it and you're like, well, that's not exactly true.

Speaker 10 You know, you can go with a Bank of America or Chase and they're everywhere and they're huge and they have all the apps and stuff. Or, and this is the way that I ended up going,

Speaker 10 you know, and this is just so funny because I think sometimes we forget, I, you know, maybe just I forget.

Speaker 10 I texted, I got a little man text that I'm on, right? It's like five or six dudes that I'm friends with. We're all business guys in the area.
And we call it the man text chain

Speaker 10 for whatever reason. So,

Speaker 10 so, so I text them and I'm like, hey, goons,

Speaker 10 I need a bank. Like, who do you recommend? So I got a couple of recommendations.

Speaker 10 And finally, one of my buddies buddies is like, picks up the phone and calls me and says, do not listen to any of those guys. Call

Speaker 10 Lynn Smith at Pioneer Bank, sit down with her and

Speaker 10 just, I guarantee you open a bank account with them. So, because he's the one that picked up the phone, the rest of them just text me back.
I call her. She sets an appointment.

Speaker 10 She sits down with me for an hour and a half and listens to me talk about what Rogue is going to be. We start strategy.

Speaker 10 Cause one of the things I'm trying to do is get ahead of my first, um, my first employee by

Speaker 10 getting some, either some working capital or a loan in place so that when I'm ready for my first staff member, I don't have to then go out and find the financing for it.

Speaker 8 Yeah, right. Yeah.

Speaker 10 I'm just trying to get ahead of that. So so I was talking to her about that.
And she's, we're coming up with all these options and it was great. I mean, I felt, and then she goes, um,

Speaker 10 you know, are you going to open a bank account here? And I said, I said, yes, I had planned to. I had really only made that decision during my conversation with her because she was so amazing

Speaker 10 to talk to that like, I was like, I can't not open a bank account here.

Speaker 10 But they're not the most tech savvy. Like it took me a couple of minutes to figure out how to connect it to QuickBooks Online.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 10 It's not like Chase where you like click a button and it connects. Like, you know,

Speaker 10 there was a little bit more. But she, so then she says, okay, come back tomorrow at 10.30 a.m.
I'm going to walk you down, introduce you to the branch manager, introduce you to the tellers.

Speaker 10 So when you walk in, they know exactly who you are.

Speaker 8 And I just like, I left and i was about people man it's about people that's the thing it's about people yeah because that's what matters right because when you need something those people know you and they care about you and they want to know you that's the beauty of it so i i couldn't agree more that's what my agent did i mean i'm going to tell you a super quick story just because you told me yours and mine yeah yeah please

Speaker 8 i was at elevate okay so i'm at elevate my husband's traveling i i'm obviously out of pocket you know this is a little bit ago and my daughter had her first car accident.

Speaker 8 And she was terrified that a police officer was at her window. Like, and it wasn't her fault.
She was hit. So, and she was fine.
Everything's fine.

Speaker 8 But she's got a police officer getting ready to ask her questions. And she's terrified.
She calls me.

Speaker 8 I'm out of pocket. She calls my husband.
He's on a plane. She calls the agent.
She calls the only number inside her glove box. She called my agent.
Called my agent's office. Guess what?

Speaker 8 He was at elevate.

Speaker 8 But you know what's funny? He called her. And the thing she said was, I I don't think you know this, Ryan, but my oldest daughter has high-functioning autism.
So for her to get a license was huge.

Speaker 8 Like she had to go through all kinds of stuff.

Speaker 8 He helped us. He helped us in many ways.
So she's now driving and she's got a police officer at a window asking her questions and she's nervous.

Speaker 8 And the thing she said to me when she told me about this interaction was, I reached our agent and you know what, mom? He treated me like an adult and he helped me through it.

Speaker 8 I'm like, yeah, you can't ever replace that. Like, he's an amazing person, and she will never forget that he was the person she could get a hold of, and he helped her through it.

Speaker 8 She wasn't at fault, but he just cared. He cared.
And so that matters. That teller or that, you know, that bank person cared to introduce you.
And they're going to care when you need something.

Speaker 8 And that's what you need when you're building a business. So, yeah, I fully believe that.

Speaker 10 I hope that we never forget that. I think that's a big part of,

Speaker 10 I know it's a big part of why I do what I do. I think one of the reasons that you and I have always connected is because you are the exact same way.

Speaker 10 And I think it's, I think that's why it's so important to continue to share these messages and continue to have conversations like the one we're having because we can never lose sight of that.

Speaker 10 It's so easy to, right? Like you're running a data business and

Speaker 10 it's easy when you dive into ones and zeros to forget that those ones and zeros zeros aren't accounts. They're people.
They're actions that people took. Right.
And

Speaker 10 look, I'm a huge technology homer. I love it.
I love to geek out on it.

Speaker 10 I mean, like my favorite thing on a Saturday night is to drink beers and play with like automation systems and technology and stuff after my wife goes to bed. Like I'm a nerd.

Speaker 8 Absolutely, man. Yeah, I get it.

Speaker 10 Right. But at the same time, we're doing all that stuff.

Speaker 10 We can't forget that those are real people, that you're creating connections not to get a user or an account through a system, but to help a human being feel better about

Speaker 10 a transaction or understand a transaction more or give them more access to you in case something actually happens like with what happened with your daughter.

Speaker 10 And I just, I think it's so important that we just, that we continue to have these types of conversations.

Speaker 8 I totally agree.

Speaker 8 I mean, Ryan, for us, data is the vehicle that helps us give the right information to help independent agents navigate the decisions they need to make and we want to be there to help them navigate it that's the that's i i mean i i don't know if i'm sure you followed me on social but the days when i get to sit in an independent agent's office and be able to help with that conversation are my favorite days the data's The data is important and it helps me be able to give context and

Speaker 8 provide ideas and get feedback.

Speaker 8 But it's really about how do I help you build a plan and weigh the things that you should be weighing and be a sounding board for you or being be a you know an advisor be a

Speaker 8 be sometimes a quarterback just to keep you on plan with the thing that you said you want to do but it's really about the consulting that comes along with the data insights that we're providing that's that's what inspires me and that's the thing we get excited about around here so it's about the people you know So I have two more questions for you that I want to hit you with.

Speaker 10 The first one is probably fairly easy. And that is like, what was the,

Speaker 10 has there been or what was the first piece of data that you came across at Intellagents that kind of like took you by surprise or that you thought wasn't what you expected?

Speaker 8 Yeah, so, you know, we came up with the idea and we built a data strategy and we took a year to mine our data and actually say, what do we even have?

Speaker 8 You know, know it's when we first hired our data strategist I wrote the strategy and then we're like yeah we probably need someone way smarter than me to figure out how to put this in practice so we spent a year really mining our data and what was alarming is if you watch all the you know insurance trade magazines and the news reports you would think that private equity transactions are dominating our marketplace but what we actually found when we mined our data was 91% of all the mergers and acquisitions in our state were retail agent to retail agent or internal perpetuation.

Speaker 8 Like that was mind-boggling. What's even worse, Ryan, is how many of them went

Speaker 8 through without any valuation at all. These are the largest assets of our independent agent, and they're doing it on a multiple of revenue that's one line item in their agency.
You know,

Speaker 8 that was the reason we got into the marketplace first by providing a valuation product that is affordable and accessible by our average agent, which, you know, there are great people in the marketplace doing this.

Speaker 8 They've been doing it for years, but they're pricing them, their price structure doesn't really allow 80% of our members to even access their product. So that was that, I mean, that's the reason.

Speaker 8 That's the first product that got to market before we ever did benchmarking and we ever did our insights report or online tools because there's such a need.

Speaker 8 And it's been super rewarding to be part of that process.

Speaker 8 You know, I'm happy to tell you that 42% of the agencies that have done valuations with us have done it for business planning purposes, not to sell, not to perpetuate, because they want to understand the value of their agency.

Speaker 8 I feel like we're making a difference by providing that.

Speaker 8 I'm super proud of that. Yeah.

Speaker 10 You know, that's one of the, one of the, one of the more pot,

Speaker 10 sorry, one of the more powerful messages that I think Zach Gould and Matt Namoli have put out into the world from GNN Insurance is that five years prior to when they

Speaker 10 sold GNN to HILB, they had been doing valuations.

Speaker 10 So they knew every year what the valuation of their business was and how it had changed and what factors had changed that valuation throughout the process. And

Speaker 10 I think that's a really important message. And, you know, so I'm looking at the page.
Anyone who's listening, go to intelagents.io. You can check out the whole site.

Speaker 10 I'll have a link on the show notes as well, but there is a tab for valuation and you can see like, you know, we're talking 2,500 to 3,100, depending if you're a member or non-member. I mean,

Speaker 10 that's very, very reasonable for

Speaker 10 an agency to have a much better picture of their standing and then benchmark that standing over time uh each year to me it's um this is like an absolute must it's it's something it should just be factored into your expense load that each year you're going to do this because it puts you in such a better position and having talked to zach and matt a lot about that decision it was something that was recommended to them they took it on and they they equate it to much of the success that they saw over those five-year period was being able to take this valuation in find their weak spots, work on them, and then double into their strengths.

Speaker 10 And that's really really a big part of what propelled their business forward. And I think every agency can do that.

Speaker 8 Without question. Never, ever sell your agency without doing some serious planning for at least five years in advance so you can maximize the value.

Speaker 8 Whether you're going to perpetuate internally, externally, just work on the business to make sure you

Speaker 8 set the next, you know, if it's an internal perpetuation, set them up for success. Make good decisions and be informed.

Speaker 8 And, you know, some of the best things is the second year valuation where we get to see that an agency took some of our advice and they see that value went up. I mean,

Speaker 8 that's a win all day long for us. So I appreciate that, but it's one of the most rewarding things, but it was the glaringly obvious thing that we needed to put in the marketplace.

Speaker 10 Yeah. So the last question I want to ask, and I want to be very respectful of your time,

Speaker 10 you wrote an article that I think is tremendous called Caution,

Speaker 10 Broken Glass Ahead. And it was all about female leadership in the insurance space, something that I'm a very strong proponent of.

Speaker 10 And it was one of the things at Elevate 2018 that was very important to me.

Speaker 10 I actually think that I talked to you guys about it and that I wanted to have as much diversity and reputation and representation and voices, not just male-female, but just diversity in general and voices.

Speaker 10 But I think it's, I love one, that you've taken this on, two, that you're using your position as both a well-respected individual, but also now a a CEO of an enterprise in our space to push this.

Speaker 10 So I'm just interested in your comments, your thoughts, where we've come from, where we are, where we're going.

Speaker 10 But I just wanted to put that out there. And I'll have the link.

Speaker 10 I'll have the link to both Carrie's LinkedIn post and her general LinkedIn so you can connect with her in the show notes for this episode as well, just so people listening at home know.

Speaker 8 Yeah, so I appreciate that, Ryan. I, you know, I started my career in a technology startup.

Speaker 8 And I mean, even back to when I got a degree in finance, I was one of four women that graduated at WVU that year with finance.

Speaker 8 I've been in male-dominated industries my entire career and often looked around the room and thought, ooh, wow, I am 100% the minority in this room.

Speaker 8 The good news is I have had mentors, male, female, younger than me, older than me.

Speaker 8 You know, it's not at all inhibited my ability to find the right people, surround myself with super smart people. But

Speaker 8 I don't know that that's true for all people. And I think people,

Speaker 8 I think it's important to talk about and recognize those that have found their way when they are not in the majority. You know, I found myself in a room of agents,

Speaker 8 I guess it's about a year ago, and someone said, you know, I'm the token Canadian. I bet you could imagine who that was.
And when it got, you know, we were all introducing ourselves.

Speaker 8 And when it got to me, I was the token woman in the room. And that's been a role that I've been in for a really long time.

Speaker 8 I've actually taken it as a really great compliment that I'm able to break through and get there.

Speaker 8 But I want other people in my position or that maybe, you know, don't see that it's possible to hear that it is possible and you need to make it happen. And, you know, I think it's also important for

Speaker 8 leaders, male, female, you know, different nationalities, all kinds of things, different races, to recognize that you have to surround yourself and diversify in order to have diversity of thought.

Speaker 8 And it's incredibly important in our industry. So, you know, I don't know if you know this, but we've created some peer groups that are female-based to create a network for that here at OIA.

Speaker 8 We see that there are some amazing leaders.

Speaker 8 You know, there's three women on our board, and we're very diligent about making sure that we find leaders and give opportunities because our industry needs diversity of thought, and that's one way to do it.

Speaker 8 We're far from being, you know, from solving the diversity problem, but we're doing the best that we can. And, you know, I think the industry we're in is amazing.

Speaker 8 I think there's amazing people, but you need to find your group. And, you know, I've found mine without question.
So anyway, I feel like it's important to have that voice.

Speaker 8 I think, you know, Sidney Rowe does a really nice job of talking about her journey. And

Speaker 8 it's different for everyone, but the whole idea is you just got to get the voice out there so others see there's possibility and opportunity.

Speaker 10 Awesome. Well, Carrie, this has been such a tremendous conversation.
I know any time that I get to spend with you is very enjoyable.

Speaker 10 And can you let everyone listening, like, where can they find out more? Where can they connect with you?

Speaker 10 And where can they find out more about Intel agents or any other resources that you think are important for someone who's listening going, I want to know more or be involved or what have you?

Speaker 8 So for any agents that are out there, you know, our website is intellagents.io.

Speaker 8 And if you're in any of the states that we're in, you can reach out to the state associations. You okay if I share the states really quickly? Oh yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 10 Yep.

Speaker 8 Yeah, so it started in Ohio, and we are now in Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Delaware, and Maryland. We're in North Carolina,

Speaker 8 Florida, Illinois, Michigan. Those are our investor states.
We are getting ready to launch in Kansas, Georgia, Texas, California, and Tennessee.

Speaker 8 So any of those states, you need to reach out to them and say, hey, how do I find out about the benchmarking RISE report? How do I find out about valuation?

Speaker 8 How do I find out about data insights that I can get from my independent agency or by, you know, my association? And again, all of this information is on Intelagents.io. I'm on LinkedIn.

Speaker 8 I'm everywhere. So I'm happy to connect with anyone who wants to talk about this.

Speaker 10 Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being on the show and chatting with me and just all the work you do in general.

Speaker 10 You are the classic professional and it's just a pleasure to know you.

Speaker 8 Well, thank you, Ryan. I am watching in wonder as you build your business.
And if you ever need anything, I'm right here. I'd love to chat.

Speaker 8 I wish you all the best.

Speaker 10 Thank you so much.

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