RHS 032 - The Unexpected Secret to Sydney Roe's Success

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash?

Progressive makes it easy.

Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money

when you bundle your home and auto policies.

The process only takes minutes and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket.

Visit Progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save.

Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates.

Potential savings will vary.

Not available in all states.

hello everyone and welcome back to the show. Today we have one of the more interesting episodes that I think I've ever done for this show because it's with one of my favorite people in the whole world.
Someone who I worked with for a while at Agency Nation, someone who is incredibly creative, thoughtful, driven, ambitious, intelligent, empathetic, funny, and just someone I love chatting with, and that is Sydney Rowe, the chief marketing officer of Be Atomic, who is helping spread the word about their tool, Neon. And this conversation goes so many different places because Sydney and I have so much history.
So there are very tactical things. Those things are towards the end.
So if you're looking for tactics and like Sydney Rowe keynote, kind of here's what's going on with video and marketing and that kind of stuff and storytelling, then that tends to be towards the end. The beginning is us really just wrapping and catching up.
And even though she and I do talk quite often just about general stuff, we don't often go deeper than whatever the topic of that particular conversation is. And we ended up just having a chat that I personally really enjoyed that kind of changed the course of my day, you know, in terms of just, you know, it's hard to not have a smile afterwards.
But, you know, it's a little higher level in different areas. And I wanted Sydney to have a chance to really tell her story.
I wanted her to have a chance to kind of share who she is. She tells so many other people's stories and I thought that it was time that she dived into her own story a little bit, a little more and gave some context to it and gave some context to it now that she's in what I believe is her most confident and authoritative place in life.
Like I feel like every day she's more confident and more authoritative and that's a good thing for her and it's a good thing for the industry and for all of us who who follow her. So it's a deep conversation.
It goes a bunch of different directions. I promise you're gonna enjoy it.
You're certainly gonna going to, I think, appreciate Sydney, who she is, and what she brings to this industry more, because I know I did, and I didn't think that that was possible. So I'm going to get you as quickly as I can to Sydney Rowe.
But before we do, I got to pay the bills, got to talk about my peeps, the people making this show possible, making the inside possible, which is now free for everyone. You can go to the Facebook group, you can go watch the videos.
That's completely free. And it is free because of the tremendous sponsors that we have of this show.
So first and foremost, Tarmica. Tarmica is the tool that I'm using for commercial rating.
I've got set up on the tool. I'm now live and licensed and Rogue Risk is an operating entity and Tarmica is the tool that we're doing our commercial rating with and just a little birdie told me they may have personal lines rating coming out soon.
So single entry personal and commercial lines rating. It's really an exciting tool.
They're building new connections into agency management systems and into carriers every single day. And this is something that you want to keep your eye on.
If you're not ready to make the move yet, that's okay. But keep an eye on Tarmica.
The people that I respect in this industry, many of them have their eyes on Tarmica are already using the tool or are involved in the project in some way, which shows me that this is a tool you want to be part of. Tarmica.com.
Go to Tarmica.com. That's T-A-R-M-I-K-A.
T-A-R-M-I-K-A.com. Schedule a demo.
Get to know this product. You want to know this product because it's something that I think will become ubiquitous in our interest.
It'll be one of those tools that you choose. And if it works for you and you can get ahead with it and gain some ground, gain some efficiencies, help your people do their job more effectively, that's what it's all about, my friend.
So visit T-A-R-M-I-K-A dot com today. Now we get on to Sydney Rowe.
All right, dude. Well, I'm super glad that we had a chance to hook up.
I mean, there's so much stuff going on. I listened to your podcast from Nola yesterday.
I got caught up. I had missed a couple episodes, and I caught that one on a dog walk, which was good.
I have some questions around that. And in general, I guess where I'd like to start is how long have you been with Neon now? In spirit or in reality? Well, because I'm sure, because there may be people listening for various reasons.
Let's just say in reality, August of 2018, August 1st, officially of 2018. So it's been four months then for four ish.
Yeah. We're still in the honeymoon phase.
Yeah. Um, now do you say you're with, if someone asks you, would you say I work for neon or I work for Be Atomic I'd say um because I get the question all that it's so funny uh how past experiences um color future experiences but I'm sure you remember the the incessant conversations of what's the difference between the big guy and trusted choice and trust and agency.
And I don't understand the, you know, how that all works together. And it took, you know, it takes about three months of conversations to get a full color picture.
Like you start out black and white and then eventually you get to the whole rainbow. Um, I, I still have those conversations with the, um, and the atomic, but essentially it's It's, Be the atomic is the company.
It's the core mission. So I worked for the atomic and the neon is the product.
That's right. Okay.
I think, um, I guess the thing that, uh, in my mind, sometimes I even get confused and I'm sure that many people, which one was the parent of the other, because there will be many there will potentially be many products or services that fall under the be atomic brand but neon is its own piece of that puzzle yeah so you know seth well enough to know that the dude does not stop with ideas like he just keeps going he's we'll get on the phone he'll be like said worry. I won't run out of ideas.
And I'm like, I know that's what makes me nervous. So, so Neon is, is one of the ideas, but yeah, he's got other things.
Like for example, we've met with a company who does consulting, but also has some experience with like data migration and cleansing. So I, well, so as a startup, you know,

I'm sure, I guess you probably don't have to go through this, but like coming from one system into another is hell on earth. So how can we make that process, which naturally organically is already hell, more cost efficient, more enjoyable, more time sensitive.
Like right now, the way that we're doing it is not only hell, like just because it's annoying as crap to have to even go through that process. Like I can't wait for the day when we stop talking about data migration because it just like you press a button and it just all sucks into some vortex or something.

But for right now, it's just a terrible, painful process. So how can we make it better?

So that's just one of the ideas we're thinking about is like, how can we run towards some of these things that are like the pipe and duct work of the insurance world and just make them a little better, a little easier. Will all the companies be named after elements on the periodic table? Good chance.
Good chance. Good chance.
Seems to be a trend. I tried to walk away.
It's funny we talked about this. I tried to walk away from the octopus.
You know the octopus. No.
You don't know the octopus? No. Bro, I'm going to introduce you to the octopus capital t capital o uh it was one of the first things i saw when i was talking to when i actually got to see the product and talk to seth about the atomic and neon and i couldn't for the life of me figure out what the deal with the octopus was so i first got in i was like seth we gotta have about this octopus.
I don't think people get it. Like, I don't know if it's good for the company.
And he was like, I could tell he was kind of like, this is really important to me, Sid. But at the same time, he's a humble dude.
So he's going to be like, all right, well, you're the marketer. So you, you know, you choose.
But Seth also has this way of sort of subtly subconsciously weaving things back into conversations getting you in the right conversations people who like the octopus and now the octopus is the website so anyways it's uh there's a good chance that uh that that his mission his vision of brand will always stick and it it'll be

scientific elements so i actually think it's cool i like the i mean it's very catchy i mean look i went with a single like for me so when i pick names of things i do the syllable game where it's like neon zinc yeah rogue uh my wife's former uh that so the name of the murray group used to be the gilderland agency gilderland agency that's like i can't even i lost count somewhere around like 12 claps way too many syllables so you have to keep as few as close to one as you possibly can to be a good name and um neon and zinc both fit that uh indium is two indy that's three but that's still decent um well and i think too seth has a when he creates a name or creates a um there's always a story behind something, right? So the idea of neon is that neon gas is technically all the particles that make up neon gas are floating within our world, right? In the same way that the data is being created every single day by an agency, phone calls are happening, emails are being sent, they exist, but they're not being structured and collected in a way that's intentional to power an agency in an efficient, scalable, sustainable way. So in the same way that a neon, there's a word for people who make neon lights, but in the same way that this person goes and collects those particles and then in this way, and then is able to use that mix of intentional collection of particles to create gas, which is one of the, you know, neon is one of the brightest lights.
How can we do that for an agency, right? How can we bring these, this data together in that way to then fuel that agency? So there's always, there's, there's always something under the surface within that you don't know. The octopus, just because we're on it, is one brain, right? So the collective, but yet many tentacles, right? So still, each tentacle is sort of independently operating, but with the collective power of that brain.
So, and then the idea of sort of the octopus coming from the depths, right?

The idea that the industry sort of looks at the agent and says, they can't do it.

They couldn't really do it.

They're not tech savvy enough. They're not this enough.
They don't work hard enough. They just go golfing.
There's this idea, this picture painted of them sort of, you know, sort of looking at the depths. And then all of a sudden out of nowhere you don't expect it they come up and just yeah and there goes your shit it also looks very similar to the hydra logo from the evil empire that fights against um that fights against uh what's his face captain america in the marvel empire in the marvel series so i'm not up on my Captain America.
You may want to look. Just search Hydra all in caps.
If you want to get real specific, search Red Skull. You can read about the origins of the Hydra organization, which is essentially the underpinning evil empire secret society that's fighting the Avengers most of the time in the Marvel Universe.

So just throw that out there.

I mean, I like it, but I just find that to be interesting.

This guy looks – this is like a guy from my nightmares, by the way.

I'm pretty sure that whoever came up with that, Red Skull, was having a nightmare when he envisioned it trying to produce nightmares um so yeah go ahead i think that that that description is is awesome i think it uh depicts why we uh it is a seth zaremba world and we're all just living in it but you know i i want to talk um i want this conversation to not be about him, what you're doing. I'm interested in you.
I want the audience to get to know Sydney. I want to get to know you a little better because I feel like you tangentially tell your story and you're really good at bringing people into who you are without actually taking them super deep.
Like sometimes you go deep, but like a lot of times you're so good at building a brand. And, uh, I think you get so into whatever your project is that, you know, I kind of want to, I want to talk a little bit about like your story and how you became like, how your story has evolved and how your career has evolved.
Cause I think it's incredibly interesting. And for someone, um, you know, and you and I have talked about this many times, uh, for someone, um, as young as you are a female, you know what I mean? Like being gay, like you have, you're so well respected throughout the industry.
And it's so incredibly rare for you to have cracked into the conversations that you've got into and to reach those levels. Like, I think there's something really important there that we should talk about.
Cause I feel like there has to be other people who maybe do not do certain things or don't take certain steps in their career because they feel like they can't or won't be accepted and you have consistently shown that that's not possible and you know as far into that as you want to go I'd love to talk about that because I think it not only speaks to who you are as a person, but it speaks to why your work is so creative

and so consistent and how you're able to evoke emotion. And like, and I promise I'll stop this little diatribe after a second, but I was listening to you on the podcast that you put out about being Enola.
And, you know, I've, I've been to that event a couple of times and I, you know, I just

picture like you, when I first met you, you would never even have been willing to get up on that stage, let alone sit up there and talk with the confidence and the authority with which you did. and that it was just having known you for as long as I have, it was very, um, this is going to, I don't want this to sound wrong, but like, I was very proud of you that you were able to do that.
Like, I thought it was amazing. Like, um, obviously I've always believed that you have that in you, but like for you to just hearing the way that you were coming across and talking about your, you know, different stuff and pulling it all together.

It was also incredibly persuasive and well done, which, which made me proud too, because I know I taught you all that shit.

So, um, you know, I'm just joking, but, uh, kind of, but, um, but really I did, but, um, you know, the, so I just, I just kind of want to dig into that a little bit because I think, I think not enough people, um, no, no, um, I don't mean all the intimate details, but know how you got here. So maybe just walk us through, like from, from wherever you want to start, wherever you feel it's a good place to start, uh, so that we can kind of show people how you became what they see today.

Yeah, I mean, it's funny. I had this thought the other day that, so I'm five years out of talking to my family, which is kind of a crazy thing to say, but I had this thought the other day where, And it really started like a year ago when I started realizing that Jess's oldest son, who's 15 now, he was 14 at the time, is going to be out of the house forever in four years.
That's it. He's gone.
and um I had this like moment where I I think if I had to color in those five years, the first like three were me just being pissed, pissed and angry and bitter about what had happened. The fourth year was sort of a apathetic year where I just didn't care.
I just didn't think about stuff. Cause I felt like my career was going well.
I had a great partnership. I was trying to build a family like, and then the last, this last year is like a new phase for me where I'm looking back and I'm like, my gosh, five years is a long time.
And I feel like I've missed so much time with my family. And it gave me a different perspective to think about how I'm sharing my story, and why I'm sharing my story, and how that affects me, the people around me, and my family And I think I'll be honest, at first, I shared it because I was angry and I wanted people to know what had happened.
And then it, you know, and before I, you know, I kind of, I just kind of didn't share it. And then I had this moment where I thought I should not be sharing my story for the wrong reasons.
Like I can't, that is a disservice to the world and to humanity if I'm sharing my story for the wrong reasons. So anytime I share it, I want to be really intentional with why and what I say and how I say it.
But I do think that it's a part of me in the same way. It's a part of my experience, and I can't not talk about it.
It's hard for me to tell you who Sid is without talking about that part of me because it shaped who I am. So looking at it through that lens, I think when you have the people who are closest to you, the people that you believe are going to be there, that your support system, your safety net, the ones you can talk to, the ones who know you better than anybody else in the entire world, say, turn their backs on you and just say, you know I'm I'm done um that's a side of humanity that uh I I think everyone has different experiences but that's a side of humanity that is it's very dark it's a very very dark side of humanity and when you see what that people are capable of that, I think it brings more color to the stories that I hear from, you know, from independent agents about things that they're feeling in their business and the way that the world is sort of treating them.
Right. Can I ask a follow up question on that? So I think that's a really interesting comment.
And the reason I think that is because you are assumed the way that you took a very dark moment, a moment that you couldn't have been prepared for, that was filled, I'm sure with heartache and with surprise and frustration and anger, all things you described. And, and obviously your world probably went black and white or gray or whatever.
And what you just said is that allows you to see colors brighter. I don't think that is the case for everyone.
I actually think most people when really shitty stuff happens, they can't get out of the gray. Like if you had to, one, do you agree that, I mean, I don't know that you need to agree, but I guess what is it about you or what you think it is it about you that like when something bad happens, right? And this could be something really, really awful, like what happened to you, or something less awful, because we all have these brief moments during the day where like, it just feels like nothing's going right.
And we get that darkness or grayness in front of us. I, I would agree that bright colors despite that.
What do you think it is about you that allows you to do that where others just kind of wallow in it? You, you know, kind of rise up out of it. What do you, why do you think that is? What do you think it is about you? Oh, that's a good question.
One that I necessarily haven't thought about. I think, so part of it is, like, you know, my childhood was one of the best childhoods.

childhoods. Like I grew up in a cul-de-sac.
I got, you know, I had the best friends. I had

parents who loved me, um,

and gave me, would give me anything in the world.

My mom would drive like 45 minutes to take me to sporting events three times a week. Um, you know, like,

I think I've experienced a really just loving,

incredible environment. And so I know what it feels like for, for, for that to be.
And I think that, that trend, it wasn't like, cause I think there's a difference between, look, you, you know, you have, um, a really terrible past and you just don't know what good looks like. And then you know what good looks like and you transition into, oh my gosh, this is the reverse of good.
And I think when you go through that transition of great to terrible, you're like, I just, I didn't want it to happen to me and I don't want it to happen to anyone else, right? I would rather we all figure out how to keep ourselves in that environment where we're helping and collaborating and loving each other, right? Versus turning the tables on each other. And for, you know, so that, I think that that might be one of the reasons.
I mean, I really, I don't, I don't know, man. I just, I really believe that people have the best in them.

I love, I remember my, my dad was standing in Disney world. I'll never forget.
He just stood there at the entrance, which like any kid is like, why are we standing at the entrance? We got to go like there's space mountain, there's Mickey, like there's the cafe where we're gonna, you know, have like tons of ice cream and you're just standing at the freaking entrance. This is the most boring part of the entire park.
But that's the part of the park where everybody floods in. That's the most concentrated part of the park where with humanity, right? I mean, everybody is right there at the entrance in the line coming through coming out the exit, then it kind of disperses throughout the rest of the park.
And he just stood there and just looked around and was like, man, it's so crazy that every single one of these people has a different story. And I'll never forget that moment because it's true.
Like every time I meet somebody, I just, I want to know who they are and their story and what they've been through. And I just, I believe that they, that there's something incredible inside of them.
Right. So I think that's part of it too, maybe.
Does that help answer? No, it does. I, I, you know, if I had to take what you just said and, and a little bit of knowing you, it's you have a very, I think at times, and I, and I, and I don't mean this to be negative to you, but like, I think at times, at least when I first knew you, I think you had a very, it was almost like a naive positivity and abundance mindset.
And I think what you've grown into in the last five years is you haven't lost that abundance mindset. You've just kind of matured into a new form of it.
Like you're not,

it's not because you're experiencing things for the first time. It's because you actually believe

that people are good at heart and have an abundance mindset that it allows you to see

those colors. And, uh, and by colors, I'm, you know, the, not just actual colors, the

metaphorically colors, but. Well, and you asked before, like how start, you know, start with your story and sort of what, how did you get to the place that you're at today? And I would say that I think there's a depth.
I've met people who have not been through, you know, live a very comfortable life, which is a very great thing. And I think that's awesome.
I wish, I mean, I would hope that everybody could live a very comfortable life. And then I've met people who have not lived a very comfortable life.
And there's a, the depth of, I don't, there's a, there's a deepness to their richness, to their journey that I can't really express when I start to hear their story and talk to them and the way they phrase their experiences and tell their story and talk about life it's just it's very different and I think is should be looked at as a tool in someone's tool belt so I remember and I don't know if you remember this, but we were sitting outside, we had just launched rockets. We were trying to film a video for the announcement of Agency Nation, I think it was Pathfinder at the time.
There was a, anyways, so we were sitting at this random bar eating food and it was me, Nyssa, you and Chip. And I, we were just having a very honest conversation about speaking and presenting.
And I said, well, you guys don't understand because it's just, it's harder being a woman, you know, when you present and you turn the tables on me and you said, Sid, I get it. And I hear you, but at the same time, I'm jealous of you because I walk in and I'm just like every other person in the room.
I have to work really hard to be, you know, the white dude that everybody should listen to. Cause there's like 20 other white dudes behind me.
Maybe you have that harder road at the beginning, but people remember you and recognize you because of how you look and what you say and that. And when you said that, I was like, oh my gosh, it's a tool in my tool belt, right? Like that's, yeah, okay, maybe it is a little tougher and I got to deal with X, Y, Z, but that gave me the confidence seeing it like that, being able to say like, I'm the person that is the unicorn and I get to own that.
That's my thing. All of a sudden it became, that's my, that's another, that's another like, you know, weapon or tool or whatever.
So I think, I guess to the people, because you kind of position this as, Hey, what could you say, you know, what would you say to people who, you know, might not have the confidence or, you know, as somebody who might look different or sound different or have different opinions. It's not just about being gay.
It's about being the person in your agency who is thinking about doing automation and the agency owner is like, I don't understand, just pick up the phone, right? If that, own that because that difference is what makes people remember you. And guess what? The people who get remembered make history.
So it's a have confidence in it, I guess is what I'd say. Because of the way you think, the way you look, the way you sound, the way you talk, the way you dress, you're pushing, you're pushing those boundaries and, and, and you've got a depth to that, to your journey because you're pushing those boundaries that is going to inform every single action you take as you move forward in a way that somebody who lives a comfortable life and looks the same and sound the same and dresses the same and does the same things.
Cause that's the way it's always been done. They don't have, and they're going to, they're going to, so I, that's what I would say is have confidence in it.
So, yeah, I, I, uh, I think that's a tremendous way to look at it. Uh, obviously I, I, I feel the same in many ways.
I think that this concept is often applied to big, huge things, but I think you can take it all the way down to even the smallest interactions in your life and how you engage with your spouse or your partner or your kids or your friends or just the people at the local convenience store. You know what I mean? Like, I think that, yeah, you could just throw your money down or put your card in and walk away and take your coffee and humdrum on with your life.
And look, there's not every day when you want to be bouncy and friendly and fun and big, cute smile. Like, I get it.
Like, everyone, you know, you're constantly dealing with different stuff, but I think that, um, just a little extra effort, just a tiny little extra effort, like count compounded over time, like so far, you know what I mean? Like I, I, uh, I listened to Cass's podcast all the time and he, uh, he asked, he asked this question, like, do you think it's skill or luck that leads to success or whatever? And, you know, if he ever interviews me, I will, I will answer it this same way. But I, like, I hear it.
And I almost want to say, like, I think that's a silly question. And, and the reason is because I know it's trying to elicit a thought process and conversation and that and for that, I think it's a great question.
But in reality, I think that to me, neither one of those things is, is, is the defining factor. It's just effort.
Now, again, you can't, you know, you effort in the wrong direction, you're going to get opposite results from what you expect, but that doesn't mean you're not going to get results and a little, and I think that's something that people miss too. Like, I guess, I guess, and this is something that you and I talked about a ton when we were working

together is like expectations, right? Like what do we expect? Like both of us, I would go into something with expectations and I would get frustrated or you would go into something with expectations and you would get frustrated. And we talked a lot about properly setting expectations or simply not having expectations and just applying effort.

So instead of wasting brainpower on what's going to be our traffic goal, I, you know, I even, I think I even said this during meetings. I'm like, I don't give a shit what our traffic goal is.
Like, I don't care. Make it 10 bazillion.
You know what I mean? Like come up with a number. I don't care because what we're going to do is effort as hard as we can to deliver quality as often as we can.
And what happens is going to happen. If we miss by a hundred visitors, are we going to be upset because some stupid goal? What if we miss by a thousand? I still don't care because what I care about is, did you mail it in or did you not and did you keep pushing forward and and um you know

i think i think so much of this stuff that we talk about has it's just effort and are you willing to put that in and and i think you've proven the case and it's why at least for part part of this interview i wanted to talk about this i think you've proven the case over and over again that by simply applying effort to your work.

You can break down any boundary.

You can reach any goal. I mean, what are you, 33, 32? Fuck you.
But 30 in 10 days. I'm actually like, I'm sad I'm going to be 30.
For some had i i thought that you were past 30. but you're like deceptive i told you this you're deceptively young nobody would think that you're so don't even you were just about to say 40.
you were i'm not 40 yet you were just about to say 40. um the hell was i saying i don't even know now effort well yeah saying? I don't even know now.
Effort. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
I don't even know what I was saying. No, I, well, it's, so it's funny.
I, so on our website, we have this form that you can fill out and contact us. So we've gotten some really random emails and one of them was from a VC and I've gotten a couple of them before, but I just was like, I'm curious.
I've never talked to a VC before. I'm curious to see what that phone call would be like.
So I told Seth and Clint this morning, actually before this call, I'm going to, I'm going to talk to a VC. Like, I just want to see what that phone call is like.
And they started laughing. They were like, all right, have fun.
You know? So I get on the phone call and this guy's like, yeah, we have this funding and we've been around for like four or five years and we're super cool. And we have all these carriers and big brokers and blah, blah, blah.
And I was like, okay, cool. So what's your goal? Like, what's your mission? And he was like, well, return.
We just, you know, he's very upfront about it. Like we want ROI.
And I was like, okay, so this is going to be the most frustrating call that you've ever had because we have the coolest piece of technology, but we are not in it for ROI. and then I went on this like you know diatribe of sort of what we're our mission and sort of

what we're trying to do and at the end he was like I could tell he was kind of like overload

you know, diatribe of sort of what we're, our mission and sort of what we're trying to do.

And at the end he was like, I could tell he was kind of like overload, you know, where it was, we're, you know, we're not a shiny object. Like we're trying to rebuild the piping.
And, um, and anyways, I guess, I guess it's just, um, if your mission is to get 7 million people to come the website why, why? What does that say about who cares about the 7 million? Oh, your board cares about the 7 million? Oh, your investors care about the 7 million? Well, what about the people that you're supposed to be serving? What do they care about, right? So it's like, yeah, I totally get it. Like effort towards, not just effort, but man towards the, the true mission, the why of what you're doing every day or else, what are you, what are you doing when you get up? Like, yeah, I'm a dude.
I am so, I'm so a hundred percent with you on this. What I was going to say is you're 33 and you're a CMO, but really you're 29 in a CMO.
That's where I was trying to get to that. And then the fact that you are only 29 and almost called me 40.
So not that there's anything wrong with being 40 or 30, but I am, I still have a three at the beginning. See, but people are starting to like, actually just kind of listen to you at this point in your life like i still have to prove that people should listen to me no one is still listening to me people just like to pretend like they do they're just like what's he gonna say now i don't know that uh here's what i would say to so i agree with the why thing if if if the last like three years of my career have, have taught me anything, it's that, um, one, uh, if, if you are, I would like to, I would like to believe that people believe at least for the most part, I'm guaranteed.
I actually know for a fact, there's a few people that don't, but I think, uh, most people believe that at least for me and I know they believe it for you, that your actions, whether right or wrong, are always well-intentioned and for the good of the majority of the group and not personally, right? So I think it would be hard for someone to point to an action that you took that was overtly self-oriented, right? I think that would be hard for someone to say about you. I would love for someone, I would hope that people in general believe that about me.
And what I mean by that is, and what the advice I'm trying to give, or at least the advice is probably a bad word. What I'm trying to say to people is, if you follow your why or what you believe or your moral construct or your belief system and you stick to that, I think what happens is the reason people break it is they're afraid to make a mistake.
Well, geez, if I do this and this happens, well, then no one's going to want to do this with me anymore. And I can tell you from first-hand experience experience, that's not actually true.
Cause I've had quite a few little hiccups, um, uh, the last few years, uh, from, you know, not, not nefarious things, but just things that didn't work, opportunities that didn't work out the way that I wanted, what have you. And like, I'm okay, still here, you know, most people still.
And I, and I think for think for you, the same is true. Like not that you've had to go through half the stuff that I've intentionally put myself through for some reason.
But I think that's, I think what you're saying is wholly accurate. You know, effort and staying on course and just allowing that course to take you where you're supposed to go instead of trying to pick and choose what you think other people are gonna want you to do or what other people think the right thing is to do.
Like I would be in a much different place in my life if I did what other people thought the best decision for my life would be. And I can tell you today, despite the fact that I haven't written an insurance policy yet, I just started giving away my paid membership for free this morning.
I feel pretty freaking good as a human being. So I don't know.
I don't know what that proves. Well, and I definitely want to say that I definitely make selfish decisions sometimes.
So for example, I'm not perfect. You do not want to be on the other end of Sydney's wrath.
Let me tell you that I've been there more than, more than, yeah, I mean, I am not perfect. I mean, as an example, it is very interesting being on a team with just three people.
And there's so much moving. And right now, the biggest focus has to be the product.
And Clint is leading the product and product development. And, you know, there was a moment that I've had it a couple times where we'll sit on calls and like, all we talk about is the product.
And I'm like, where's, why aren't we talking about the marketing? Why aren't we talking about the, why are we talking about the website? You guys don't want to know how the octopus drawing is going? Like, come on. Right.
And, and I got what happened, what tends to happen is, and I can, I see this, I have this like cycle, like self cycle that I go through, where I start to then pivot about caring about what, you know, this other person is doing with this project that seems to be more important. And then I stopped thinking about the things that I really care about, which are making really awesome videos and telling the message the way I think it should be told and listening to how the product development is going so that I can bring it into my and just doing a really good job at the thing I'm doing a good job at.
And then because I'm ignoring this piece, then even more attention gets drawn back to the product because I'm not doing anything over here. Right.
And so then there's this cycle that happens and I'm like, and it'll go for like a couple of days where I'm like, what is wrong? Like, and then I'm like, it's Clint's fault and it's Seth's fault and it's not. And then eventually I wake up out of it and I'm like, oh my gosh, Sid, stop thinking.
Like we only have so much space in our brain and so many things we can do every

day. If I'm too concentrated on thinking about what this other person is doing, I'm not doing

amazing things and I have nothing to bring to the table. If I just concentrate on what I'm really,

really, really good at and just do that thing and keep doing that thing, I know that it'll,

I know that it matters. Right.
And then you, and there's this whole, like you start to question

yourself and you don't trust yourself and doubt. And it's hard in a startup culture because

Thank you. I know that it'll, I know that it matters.
Right. And then you, and there's this whole, like you start to question yourself and you don't trust yourself and doubt.
And it's hard in a startup culture because everybody else is questioning you at the same time. So, uh, so anyways, I am not perfect and I do make really selfish decisions.
Uh, and I think being a part of this team and this company has taught me, uh, how selfishly I do think through things sometimes and how much I appreciate having people like you, having people like Seth and Clint who can say, honestly, Sid, think about it this way or come at it from this perspective or whatever right um so Um, so anyways, it's, I, I, um, I think 110%. Yeah.
I guess I don't know where I was going with that. No, I know.
I think, I think it's a really applicable story because if you're sitting there and you're listening to this and, and I, and I get for the, for the, for everyone listening to the show, maybe some of what we're talking about is sounds maybe fluffy or high level. We haven't gone very tactical.
We'll take the last few minutes. And I do have some very tactical questions for Sid that I want to talk through.
I think this is important, though, because I think conversations are like, like this are important. Because one, I know there's, there's not a ton of people that, that, that are willing to go this deep on the record.
So I think that's important. Two, I think what you just described to me is a perfect scenario even for like a producer who's listening, right? Like it is easy as a producer to start to lose sight that you are part of a bigger team and just start to veer off into, well, I just need to get my money and they're not giving me my commission split.
And over there, they're getting five points more commissioner. They have access to this tool that I don't have access to.
And, and, and the one, so I do that, that cycle that you just talked about. I have that same exact cycle and I'll ask because I'm like, I have that same cycle with my wife, right? Like I have to go, she, I literally will say to myself, I'll like put my hands up and be like, she's on your team.
Okay. I'm back.
I mean, like, you know, like there'll be moments where you're like, and I'm like, wait a minute. If there's anyone who's on my team, it's this human being who I've been with for 14 years.
Like, you know what I mean? Like, oh my God. Like the fact that I still have to say that what I've tried to do is just make that loop tighter.
So instead of a couple of days,'s a couple hours. And then I've tried to work on this a lot.
This is why you're 40. And I'm it's like a couple minutes, right? This is why you're dude, this is why you're 40.
And I'm, I'm 30. So I'm just kidding.
I think that all I'm saying is, I think that loop gets tighter. And so I it's part of it is, so say, say you are a producer, and you're listening to this, and you're, you're, you know, you're kind of frustrated with your ownership, or, or, and this is very common, right? We see this all the time.
Gen X, millennial generation fighting against the baby boomers, right? They don't understand us, they won't listen to us, they won't give us leash to go do what we want to do. And then we start to peel away.
And it's all well, I'm going to go start my own thing. And, and, and I think what's important, or something to consider in that cycle is, is take a second, take a deep breath, whatever you got to do.
And remember, who's actually on your team, right? Like, is this person actually fighting against you? Or are they doing what they think is right for the team as a whole? And do you just need to do a better job of describing why you think this other thing is the way to go? Or maybe is there a way to work it in? Or what is the alternate solution? And if you can do that, come all the way back and say, this person is not helping the broader team. Well, then you need to take action.
Otherwise, don't let that shit even enter your mindset because all it, it's just toxicity that you don't need. And just try to make that loop close shorter and shorter and shorter.
I'm obviously not perfect at it, but having been, you know, I've experienced all the same thoughts that you've experienced many, many times. And the only thing I can say is I don't know that you can ever stop it from happening, but you can make the loops tighter.
And I, what that does is make you more productive and give you more awareness of where you should be. That that's, that's probably the best I can say.
So, okay. I got some tactical questions I

want to throw at you because you are the maven of video and marketing and storytelling in the industry today. Good to know.
Big shoes, Phil. My first question for you is, how much thought like like how much thought do you put into a piece of content? I want to try to phrase this the right way.
The impact it's going to have on people versus telling the story that you think needs to be told. You get while I'm asking the question that like, are you thinking I want to impact people in this way and you craft a story for that? Or do you try to tell the story that needs to be told and let the impact happen as it will, or some combination? I'd say tell the story as it needs to be told and let the impact happen.
So I think in any business's journey, there's going to be things that you do, things that happen that are going to be more impactful and some that are going to be less impactful. And it's the accumulation of those impactful things, wherever they exist on that scale, that actually makes the biggest punch.
And that's the part that people miss is one piece. I got to

get one piece of content that gets 500 or goes viral. And that's going to, that's going to be my

rocket on to the moon. Um, I had, I had somebody I was talking to the other day and said, yeah,

I was watching some of your videos and that, that, that, that, yeah, there's that one that has like

only like 50 views. What happened there? Right.
Um, and I, I mean, you know,

I, I definitely have those weeks where I'm like, man, why did my video only get 50 views?

Still title your videos. Ridiculous.

Um, the shocking truth of players play play that's what we do that's what we do so so so fair enough fair enough so so i think um yeah i have those moments like, oh, like, why didn't that get more views?

But like, I know the one that's going to go out today is going to be impactful just because I'm listening. I'm listening to people.
I'm on the phone with people and I'm listening to what questions they're asking me about Neon and what matters to them. I'm in the room listening to the carriers.
I'm listening to Seth. I'm listening to Clint.
And I just, I'm a decently empathetic person. So I know what's starting to hit those deeper notes.
And like really bring out those vivid colors to your analogy before. That's a really good way of pulling it full circle.
So I would just say document, document, document. Like I don't, I mean, like, I think somebody asked me, do you have a roadmap of like all the videos you're going to make in 2020? No, I have like six videos to make.
And after that, I have no clue what I'm going to talk about. Yeah.
But I know there's going to be things to talk about because more things are going to happen in the next six weeks that we'll fill in the next six weeks and then I'll have, okay. Right.
So it's like, I just, I'm confident enough that I know. And if I don't have something to talk about, I'll figure it out.
I just, I know I can. I've, I've been in those positions enough to know.
I know kind of what to look for and how to tell the story. And I'm okay with a video getting two views.
I'm okay with that. So there's a couple of things there.
So you find yourself in a moment where maybe even you have another idea written down, but it's just not speaking to you. Right.
So like maybe you did some work and you came up with a list of 10 videos that you need, that you really think would be good videos. And you get to video seven.
You're just like, I would rather take a bullet to the brain than create this next video today. But I

need that I want to be active, right? Because activity does, though it is not the most important thing, it does have relevance. So what are like, how do you brainstorm an idea? Like if you were just trying to figure something out, like, where would you go? How would you like, what's your, I mean, and this could be specific to you.
But like, what are the what's the way that you dig dig yourself out of like, like, um, you know, like, uh, you know, the block or whatever, like, how do you, yeah, that's like, that's a really hard, that's probably one of the hardest things as a creator that you have to do. Cause it's much more fun when the ideas are just kind of spit firing at you and you get to develop them, like developing, developing an idea and creating an idea are two very different things at different difficulty levels.
And I'd say creating the idea is much harder because you're just, you're literally making something out of nothing. And that's always hard.
Like when somebody says, oh yeah, I got to write an email or blog post. If they're working off a blank piece of paper and off of a written piece of paper or like a written blog post, it's always easier to start with something than nothing.
I would say I, I kind of go into this, like, I have to like detach myself because typically creators get into a, they get into like tunnel vision where they're just like the next thing, the next thing, you know, sort of developing those things out and you get, you're almost like in the forest and you have to really step back. And so like things that I'll do are I'll go to our YouTube channel and I'll look at what have we said on the record? Like, cause there's what you're thinking you've said about the company and what you think about the product or your mission and what you know about it.
And then what's actually on record, what you've actually said. And sometimes those things get muddied, right? Because you're like, well, I think I said that one thing in that one video.
So that counts as like it being said, right? That counts as it being on the record. So I'll, but it might've gotten lost in the bigger vision of that particular video, right? So I'll go back and I'll look at like the titles and I'll think about what have I said here and what really stood out and where are the gaps in what I know about the product and I know about the mission and I know about things that have happened and what's actually on record in a, in an impactful way.
Right. And that'll start to fill in.
I'll start to see gaps. Like I could have said that better.
Okay. I'll make another video.
Maybe I've already made a video on behavioral data. Maybe I need to make another one because it didn't, you know, I realized in that video, I didn't talk about how I talked about the idea and concept of behavioral data, but I didn't wrap it back around to having operational insight equals more efficiency and scale because you actually know what's going on in your business.
So can I then take that concept now that I've built the foundation, now let's take it to the next level. Right.
So I think that's a really good concept because like your ideas morph, right? Like you, like you can do one thing today and six months later, maybe that idea hasn't changed, but maybe you just approach it a different way or you have a different way of talking about it. And that actually takes me to, to my, to my next question, which is you are is you're attacking some topics that are pretty heady, like behavioral data and behavioral, you stick the word behavioral in a thing and it just becomes complex, right? So you're trying to break these concepts down, apply them to another very heady concept of data, and then take those two concepts and lay them on top of an insurance technology.
So what I would say is just those three concepts stacked on top of each other are way more complicated than any insurance policy form, which is often the feedback I get of Ryan, these are really difficult concepts to explain. Why would I talk about these things? So being someone who has broken down and, or is in the process of breaking down very heady concepts, like what advice can you give to like the agents and anyone who's trying to create video or, or talk about insurance topics? Like what's some advice that you can give them for taking these very heady concepts and breaking them down into things that people understand? I mean, people don't buy on logic, they buy on emotion.
So what's the friction point or pain that exists in someone's life that you're trying to solve for them? That's always where I start with my videos. So like behavioral data,

you know, it's cool. And I mean, we could talk about like objects and fields and data structure and show you a screenshot of Neon, which like is exciting in theory, but once you actually see it, it's kind of like, oh, like that's, that's, those are objects and fields and that's where you click the button and that's cool.
Right. Like, um, I think, uh, when I was trying to explain that I was like, why, why does B what is the, what's the problem we're trying to solve? Like what, what does an agency owner feel? And I kept listening and listening and I was like, oh my gosh, they're, they what any team member or any customer is doing at any given moment.
They have no like this operational oversight. Like they can't, they walk through the hallway and they just trust that, you know, Joe or Jane, because they're smacking the keyboard is actually doing, not only doing something, but doing the right thing that's going to affect the business in the most impactful way, but they don't know, they don't, they have no clue.
So that's a pain point, right? And sometimes you almost have to create the pain point. They don't know it exists because they're still making money, but how do you, it's like, have you seen Wolf of Wall Street? Yep.
So the part where he's like,

sell me this pen. And then the guy goes, um, uh, I need your autograph or something.
And, or do you want my autograph? And the guy goes, uh, or he says something like that. And then you want my autograph? The guy was okay.
You know, but the idea of like creating the need, right. You're creating the need.
Okay. Terrible.
Fair. Fair.
So I, yeah, that's, there's no coming back. That's going to be the Instagram like promo.
Is you trying to describe that scene on loop, like just a over. It's amazing.
It is. It was an awesome example, though.
It was. Yeah, sure.
I appreciate that, dude. We're an hour in.
So we'll give give you that and i do want to be respectful of your time so we we can wrap up but no i get what you're saying you sometimes you have to show them that the pain exists because they don't this is actually i'll i'll i'll i'll give you an example so that you can recalibrate your thoughts after what just happened there um thank you uh my wife's agency i was was talking to her about, she runs on TAM. She's a rack server in her office and they grew at a pretty decent number this year, considering all the incredibly awfulness that happened to our family personally, and then take into effect that they run on technology that is very old school, very old school.
And one of the things that we were talking about for this upcoming year was, so you had about as terrible personally, and for those that don't know, we lost a very close family member, her brother this year, who actually worked in the agency. So that's why I'm saying that.
And they were still able to put a positive number on the books. It speaks to the quality of the agency and the other staff members who are able to pick up slack, whatever.
But what I said to them was, okay, so if you were to do the exact same things again this year, and you were to grow the exact same amount, you would be happy. But would you be happy if I said with small technology tweaks that would provide efficiency with the same exact team, the same exact people, the same exact relationships, you would have the potential to double that growth, to take it from, you know, 5% to 10%, from 7% to 14% by, you know, that's not a problem that exists to them today, right? They made a good amount of money and they've consistently made money throughout the history of the agency.
So to come up to them and say, you have a, you have a problem. They're going to go, I don't have a problem.
Look how well we're doing. But, but then you have to show them.
And this is why I think, I think from a marketing perspective, if you're able to pull off the neon story, and I don't mean that in a negative sense, I mean it like, if you're able, like any marketer has to, has to turn people onto their product. If you're able to do that with something like Neon, where you are first establishing a problem that they're, that most people don't necessarily know exists and then show them how your product solves a problem.
Um, you will have customers for life that will never leave you. That will be your absolute brand advocates.
That will ambassadors, that will literally take people by the hand and walk them in the front door. Because you've, you've, it's found opportunity.
It's not just, I was struggling with this. And I've tried a couple vendors and geez, you're the best of the worst.
It's, it's, you took this problem that was there, a cancer that existed that I didn't know was in my business.

You've shown me it and then cured me of it. And that's why I've said, and I said this to you when you talked to me about Neon, I said, I think that this is one of the most worthy causes in our

industry. And to the extent that you solve it, I mean, like you're gonna solve it I mean I know the path you're on but um just the comp if the only impact that neon had and and certainly this is not what I'm rooting for nor do I believe but if the only impact that neon had were the conversations that this has created about our industry it's a game changer it is It is, if we're like, if this were like a, like a time machine movie, like where they had that timeline thing, and then here's where the singularity happens and the whole, like the formation of neon and what you're doing now, I feel like is that moment.
And I don't know, I'm just very happy for you guys. And it's so exciting to watch.
And, and I, so I have one last question for you and then I'll let you go. Cause I'm, we're way over, but I'm going to probably talk for another hour.
I was going to say, yeah, keep doing more examples like that. Um, which just so everyone knows, like, I just like to make fun of Sid.
It's like one of my favorite things, just shocking shocking. It's only because I love her so much.
But so I want for my last question, and this speaks to this solving a problem that people don't exist. And I want to take it all the way back to where we started with.
I listened to that podcast that you did from Nola. So in that podcast, which I'll have linked up in the show notes of this episode, which will be ryanhanley.com forward slash Sid, S-Y-D.
I'll do Sydney because if I do Sid, people are going to spell it wrong. So Sydney, the classic way, like the city in Australia, ryanhanley.com forward slash Sydney.
If you want, I'll have the episode to the Be Atomic podcast linked up or just go and find it. But if you're looking for the specific episode that I'm talking about, I'll have it linked up and everything, as well as ways to connect with Sid and Neon and all that.
In that episode, towards the end, hold on. I love working from home Isabella I told her I was doing a podcast and she didn't listen to me um so in that episode uh or in that talk that you were giving with Billy Williams and Ron Berg you went on towards the end um I don't want to call it a diatribe because it was more than that.
It was a soliloquy of sorts. And in there, you talk about this idea of packaging clients, knowing what people are doing at all times, being able to connect interdepartmentally.
And I'm not describing it as well as you did. So go back and listen to it.
But you describe the actual problem that Neon is solving. And the silence in that room was deafening.
And it's nothing against that particular audience because I pretty much feel like you could have said what you said to just about any insurance audience outside of maybe a couple dozen people. And most of them are already part of the neon pilot.
Right. And they just, it was so obvious that they, the few that were following were just, you know what I mean? The few that were following definitely were not on that level.
And then the rest of the audience was like, I don't even know what she's saying. So I guess guess my last question and this is very long-winded is to be how do you break through that barrier right where where you have a very long way to take people I mean they I think there were a couple responses and just from what I would hear before the podcast ended it sounded like they were talking in a different language like they just could not get to where you were coming from.
And, uh, and again, that's not a knock on that particular audience. I, that would have been the case for anyone.
So how do you pull people that distance? Like, what is your, how do you get them there? Jeez, dude, why'd you save this one for the end? Just came to me. I just make this shit up as I go.
Oh man. How do you get them there? Um, they're going to get themselves there.
I think is the real answer. Like that at the end of the day, people ask me like, how do you market? What's your strategy? Who are you going after? And I'm, I'll never forget sitting on this carrier call.
It was like 30 days into being an officialomic employee and the carrier was like so what kind of agents are you going after like 10 to 15 size employees certain amount of revenue are they all in Ohio do you want some in California are they all trucking are they all personal lines more commercial lines? And I said, I actually got

off the call and I talked to Seth and I was like, we need personas. Like we need to tell, we need to be able to tell these people what they're like.
Cause you know, this was a big call and I was frustrated that I didn't have an answer. And I realized very slowly over the last couple months that the answer isn't in the makeup of their business, but the makeup of the leadership's culture and where they want to go.
I think this industry, and we tried to start this at Agency Nation, but the industry needs to wake up and try to want to do things better, be better, right? We sell a product that people have to buy. And I think that almost gives us an excuse to be a little lazy.
You know, we're not the restaurant in New York that's going to go out of business because, you know, there's cooler food that's being sold down the road. People need what we're selling, right? And I think we're looking for the type of agent and the type of agency that is willing to be really vulnerable about what's actually going on in their industry, going on in their agency, and take a look.
I mean, that's what data is. It's transparency and vulnerability.
It's not, I mean, at the end of the day, it's not like some cool quick fix that's gonna, you plug this into that, and then boom, your agency is like super spectacular and rainbow filled. And no, it's going to take a lot of very courageous work.
And so we're looking for the people who see that and they actually want to take an honest look at their business and stand in front of the mirror and say, I want to do that. Like I want to move forward.
I don't really, I'm not in the atomic because of cool technology. I could care less about the technology part of it.

I think that we're, we need, we're looking for those people who want to be better and do better. And this is just a way, a vehicle to get there, right? It's not the end, the technology isn't the end in and of itself.
It's a way to become closer to your best self and a way to become closer to the partners in the industry so how are we going to get them there like I I mean the industry at the end of the day either wants it or they don't I can't make neon work Seth can't make neon work I can't shove it down people's throats either they're gonna hear the message and we're gonna attract the right people and they'll walk in and be like I was I've been looking for this thank you or Thank you. Or we're not, and we're going to go out of business.
And that's going to be, that's going to be, you know, just, I guess the story that was told. Right.
And hopefully it won't be because we didn't do a good job. Um, and I also just, I hope that the industry, I hope the industry wants it.
Right. I hope they're willing to walk through the front doors.
So I don't know. Does that no i i think i think i think that i think you started with the perfect answer right which is they're gonna get there themselves and what i i i think i think that what people trust if i'm just looking from the outside is that seth has a vision and a desire to create a high level.
And he's partnered with someone who can tell that story in a way that no one else can. And I believe that if, if there is anyone who could do it, it will be you guys.
Again, I think your honesty in that, look, it may work, it may not work. I think that's the case with everything.
And to go in in any other fashion is just kind of shallow hubris. But I do believe personally, and it's why I'm just so I was so excited for you when you decided to take this on.
Because this is no small order. and obviously you know that.
But I think that if there is anyone that can do it, it's you guys. Some of the other partners you have are absolutely the right people that you need to be in business with and it's going to be incredibly fun to watch, man.
So I appreciate you coming on the show. I've taken up way too much of your time today.
I'm so glad that we didn't talk about data that much because that's not really, I wanted to talk about other stuff because you're talking about data a lot and anyone goes and listens to the Atomic podcast, I 100% recommend it. I listen to it.
You're going to hear all kinds of different stuff, all kinds of great interviews. And it and, and it's absolutely a must listen, um, and watch the YouTube channel.
Like again, even if you never get on neon, the question

that the things that you are talking about in that YouTube channel are so important, whether you,

whether you ever consider neon ever as a product or be atomic or any be atomic services, um, that

YouTube channel is a must subscribe. I'll have that linked up at Ryan Hanley.com forward slash

Thank you. on ever as a product or be atomic or any be atomic services um that youtube channel is a must subscribe i'll have that linked up at ryanhanley.com forward slash sydney said where um if

they want to get at you directly though what what's the what's the best spot to connect with you

uh any social media platform my email is syd syd at be atomic.com so you can always shoot me an

email and then be atomic.com is our website there's a form on there that you can sign up

I'm going to go ahead and get started. email is sid sid at be atomic.com so you can always shoot me an email and then be atomic.com is our website there's a form on there that you can sign up uh for and yeah those are the three

places social website hit me with an email awesome thanks dude yeah right back at you Thank you. close twice as many deals by this time next week sound impossible it's not with the one call close system you'll stop chasing leads and start closing deals in one call.
This is the exact method we use to close 1200 clients in under three years during the pandemic. No fluff, no endless follow-ups, just results fast.
Based in behavioral psychology and battle tested, the one call close system eliminates excuses and gets the prospect saying yes more than you ever

thought possible if you're ready to stop losing opportunities and start winning visit master

the close.com that's master the close.com do it today