Gene Simmons Opens Up: Coming To America With Nothing, The Mindset That Built An Empire & The Man Behind The Makeup

Speaker 1 you ever doubt yourself?

Speaker 2 Oh, hell no. I know that I'm not the best-looking gun in the world or the smartest or anything, but I will walk into any room and I will walk out with your girlfriend.
There's no doubt in my mind.

Speaker 1 Simmons and Kiss revolutionized rock in the 1970s and 80s. One of the most influential rock bands of all time.
30 gold records, 14 platinum records. Kiss! Gene Simmons!

Speaker 2 Don't ever take shit from anybody.

Speaker 2 Just roll up your sleeves and go to work. Wow.
What do do all great champions do? They psych themselves up. I'm going to win it.
I am the champion. I am the greatest.
I heard Muhammad Ali doing that.

Speaker 2 I never heard a human being talk like that publicly. Like, who is this guy? Actually, he was stating fact.

Speaker 2 It's our problem that we thought, well, you're not supposed to say that. Why not? Why not set greatness in front of you and then work towards achieving it?

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's true. What have you learned about fame that you wish everyone knew?

Speaker 2 If you become famous.

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Speaker 1 And I heard an interesting story or a very powerful story that

Speaker 1 of when you're when you and your mother were trying to get to America and trying to come here and and migrate to america what was the lesson you learned from your mom and the courage to get over

Speaker 2 my father had gone so the provider was no longer there because my mother stayed at home while he worked so once my father left my mother was forced to go out there and you know uh while i went to school so when i come home from school at three four whatever it is in the afternoon i was alone at six seven years of age and,

Speaker 2 you know, would cry myself to sleep because my mother would work until late at night, six days out of the week. There was no such thing as five days,

Speaker 2 two days off. And in Israel, it's the Sabbath, Saturday that you take off.
Sunday, you go right back to work from 6 a.m. until

Speaker 2 7, 7.30 p.m.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 so

Speaker 2 both of my mother's brothers became successful in America.

Speaker 1 They already came to America.

Speaker 2 Yes, right before World War II.

Speaker 2 My mother and my father went to Israel in 1949,

Speaker 2 and both brothers had already started working in America. And the stories I could tell you about my Uncle George, until the day he passed, he loved wonder bread.

Speaker 2 In those days, you could, for 29 cents, you could buy a whole loaf. He would buy a whole loaf with water and sit in a park bench in Central Park.
And to him, it was like eating cake from kings.

Speaker 2 He would just eat the bread and drink water because you didn't have it in Europe.

Speaker 2 There was barely any, the fact that he could eat an entire loaf of bread by himself and nobody would kill him to get a slice of bread

Speaker 2 was beyond anything. because Europe never really recovered from the 1929 stock market crash.
People were killing each other all the time.

Speaker 2 And in concentration camps, if you had a loaf of bread, they'd kill you for that. It's a different world in America, the land of plenty.
Even during World War II, people ate, you know, we grew wheat.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 1 her brothers were already here

Speaker 2 and successful.

Speaker 1 And successful. So they said, hey, you come over and stay with us?

Speaker 2 That's exactly right.

Speaker 1 And was it that easy to kind of, you know, leave the country at that time?

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 when my mother came to america she she had to work you know the whole time and i was

Speaker 2 i remember going into my uh uncle larry's house and they had their own house with a basement and stuff i mean i just couldn't and you'd look out the door and there were paved streets and cars going everywhere and people were fat and i never saw a refrigerator i mean we had an i we had a box and if you had a piece of ice it stuck it in there so you can have milk by the way not branded they'd give you a a sheet of newspaper and your week's piece of meat and your week's butter and your butt.

Speaker 2 It was a new country. There was nothing.
There were no stores. People can't fathom that.
I remember all that.

Speaker 2 And I remember

Speaker 2 just everything was new. You know, you have branding cups and

Speaker 2 canned food. I never saw canned food

Speaker 2 until I got our first, until we got our first care package from the UN. And we opened up the box and there was a

Speaker 2 I get choked up when I

Speaker 2 and there was a can of peaches

Speaker 2 and I never saw a can I know people are going to think well he's exaggerating no I never saw a can of food there were no supermarkets or grocery stores nothing you lived in hills

Speaker 2 and I remember taking the can and they were a full color picture of peaches dripping, you know, with the stuff.

Speaker 2 And I remember at about seven years of age looking at it and my mother,

Speaker 2 you know, saw, grabbed that out of my hand and she took a big rock. There's no such thing as can openers, and she put it on the ground and

Speaker 2 banged into it and then peeled back, you know, the metal.

Speaker 2 So the sharp stuff was going there. And she gave it into my hands.
And my little hands grabbed it and I looked and saw the yellow peaches inside.

Speaker 2 And my mother said, you know, in Hungarian, because I spoke Hungarian, Hebrew, Turkish, Spanish, and those stuff.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I remember tasting it, and I

Speaker 2 sorry, I'm getting a little feclamped here.

Speaker 2 Never tasted anything.

Speaker 2 I still taste it. Never tasted anything so sweet or anything.
And I wanted to show my mother, and she was like, we were just amazed at this thing. And

Speaker 2 the fact that this, and it also had a Bugs Bunny book

Speaker 2 colored with he's going down the road and all that. I didn't never heard of Bugs Bunny and a sweater that was all torn.

Speaker 2 My mother put it on me and it was all, you know, too big, but it was colorful and all that.

Speaker 2 And my mother would read me the same Bugs Bunny book every night, but she had to make up the words in Hungarian because she couldn't speak

Speaker 2 Hebrew and the words were in English. So she'd make it up.
And I'd just look at the pictures and I'd go to sleep sleep with that.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 as a matter of fact, Mel Blank, a Jew who did all the voices for all the Warren See what else did they

Speaker 2 voice, the Daffy Duck and Melt, you know, all that, Elmer Fudd, told him the story. And he said, that is

Speaker 2 that's one of the reasons why I wanted to do these voices for the children whose lives it changed.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 which is why,

Speaker 2 as soon as I got some money, I made sure that

Speaker 2 took a bunch of money and send it to kids in need, originally through the Christian Child Fund, and then became the Child Fund. And to this day, support 1,400 kids in Africa

Speaker 2 who,

Speaker 2 if they don't go to school, won't get clothes and won't get fed. That means you'll starve because there's nothing there.
Zambia.

Speaker 2 You come to school, you get fed and stuff, so it teaches you that school.

Speaker 2 So I got lost, and what was the question?

Speaker 1 Well, really about like your experience when you got to America. You never saw anything like this before.
You never experienced the taste, the foods, the refrigerator, all these things.

Speaker 2 I was in the kitchen with my aunt Magda, who herself survived the camps and had some problems.

Speaker 2 And she married my uncle. Larry, who was my mother's brother.
And we go into the kitchen because there was always another room.

Speaker 2 There were bedrooms, like a palace you can't believe it and there's this big white

Speaker 2 box or something and a metal thing and my aunt magda opened it and i was uh you know i was a little kid i never saw anything like it and it's just food

Speaker 2 there's wrappers and food and cheese and things that put you and on the side i'll never forget it

Speaker 2 My Aunt Magda, I was attracted to the red because it was a jar of red.

Speaker 2 I later remembered it was Schucker's. With a name like that, it's got to be good.
It's smuckers jelly. Out of Ohio.

Speaker 2 And my mother said to me in Hungarian, you know, have some. And my Aunt Magda opened the can.
I'd never seen that before. You don't understand.

Speaker 2 In Israel, they'd give you a slab of whatever, butter, never jelly.

Speaker 2 And that would be it for the week. You'd have to make it.
There was no refrigeration or anything. So

Speaker 2 my Aunt magda gave me a spoon

Speaker 2 and in broken hebrew she must have said taste it

Speaker 2 because she was fascinated that i didn't wasn't quite sure what it was

Speaker 2 i'm only halting because if you weren't here

Speaker 2 i'd start bawling

Speaker 2 and i thought she said eat it because she gave me a spoon. So I started like a Christmas goose.
I just started

Speaker 2 my mouth full of jam with the jam falling all over, you know, just eating it because I never tasted anything like that, the entire jar.

Speaker 2 And both my mother and my aunt Magda were laughing so much, you know, they were in tears. And I didn't know what was going on.
I was just said, this is the best thing I ever had.

Speaker 2 And America just kept. And then I was afraid of crossing.
I still have the marbles. I was afraid of crossing the street because cars were going by.

Speaker 2 You know, people crawling. I didn't understand it.

Speaker 2 So I walked around the block and I saw other houses next to each other. I said, this is like,

Speaker 2 where are all these houses? These are this, everybody's rich.

Speaker 2 Yeah, everybody's rich. And I went to the other side of the street.
Then I had to come back and went a little further, then eventually went around. I thought if I went around, I'd get lost.

Speaker 2 I didn't know that came around to this. I know it sounds

Speaker 2 on the other side, eventually, I saw some guys guys playing marbles on the grass, which would be, I don't know if you have a marble or something. Well,

Speaker 2 and they're throwing it like this. It's not what we did in Israel.
You stood up on two legs and you went like that. And you get really good because you can aim it on the ground.

Speaker 2 If you do the marbles like that, you know, the ground would make the marble not thing. And what are you, stupid? Can't you speak English? Yeah.
Hello, I don't know.

Speaker 2 God is an idiot. I play, I play.
They go, yeah, here. They gave me a marble or two.

Speaker 2 I won all their marbles. They didn't last for long.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I still have all the marbles I won, about 80 of them. Really? In an old Dutch master's cigar box.
That's cool. To remind me, don't ever take shit from anybody.

Speaker 2 Just roll up your sleeves and go to work. Wow.
Make them work for you.

Speaker 1 How did that make you feel, though, when you didn't speak the language? You didn't have any friends. friends, when you came to America, you're in this new world? How did that make you feel?

Speaker 1 Were you more excited or more scared?

Speaker 2 I've never been scared, not after my mother survived Nazi Germany, but I've always felt like an outsider. I still don't feel like an outsider.

Speaker 2 Maybe that's okay.

Speaker 2 Maybe.

Speaker 2 I want to be like everybody else. I want to be an ordinary guy.
No, I don't want to be an ordinary guy. I want to be an extraordinary guy.

Speaker 2 I want to excel at anything that I try to do, and I'm willing to work harder than you do.

Speaker 2 And the only thing that prevented me from getting into sports and everything else is because the pragmatism in me tells me that you've got a short life.

Speaker 2 When you enter sports or things like that, if you get an ankle,

Speaker 2 you're done.

Speaker 2 But I can be a banker or a lawyer or a teacher or thing forever. It made more sense and therefore more dollars.

Speaker 2 Yes, if you're lucky, because every kid in every poor neighborhood wants to be the baseball player player or the football player and stuff like that, because

Speaker 2 50 million, Carmelo Anthony, and for a while I worked with Carmelo,

Speaker 2 they make all this money. You don't see the tens of thousands and millions of carcasses on the side of the road that wanted to

Speaker 2 put all their eggs in one basket and achieve nothing. You only see, you know, the tip of the ice.

Speaker 2 Yeah, the winners. Oh, that means anybody can do it.
That's a fallacy.

Speaker 1 So when did music start to come into your life? Because I heard a story that you saw the Beatles on TV when you were 13. Was music something you were interested in before then?

Speaker 1 Or did that open your mind to a world of, oh, dreaming that maybe I could be this one day?

Speaker 2 I didn't put the

Speaker 2 two and two equals four thing together. I was more an observer on life because in America there were so many attention deficit disorders.
There were so many different things going by.

Speaker 2 There was sports and things and television and radio and all that stuff going by.

Speaker 2 And so I worked. And when I was about 13, I came home.
Yes, I worked on Sundays. And Sunday nights, I'm pretty sure it was the Ed Sullivan Show.

Speaker 2 Unlike any show that's ever been on TV at that time in 1963, 64, population of America was 170 million people about that. Now it's double that.
It's 330 million.

Speaker 2 And that, And the Ed Sullivan show was so big, they had pooping elephants and comedians and puppet guys and, you know, one rock band for the kids.

Speaker 2 And I remember coming home from work and my mother got one of those TV dinners. People have no idea what that is, but you buy them frozen because poor mom had to go work.
She couldn't.

Speaker 2 And it was like this.

Speaker 2 kind of like old shoes crunched into like burgers, peas and some mashed potatoes, and you pour the gravy and that was it.

Speaker 2 And I didn't know anything. I liked it.
So I was eating it and ladies and gentlemen, the Beatles.

Speaker 2 And I'm going,

Speaker 2 what is that?

Speaker 2 And by the way, I met the biggest stars in the world, you know, especially musicians. They all point to that pivotal moment.
Scientists call it a singularity.

Speaker 2 All of a sudden, these feminine-looking guys with hair over their ears, because in those days, even shorter than your hair you'd see the meat between the ear and the hairline above it yeah or like crew cuts

Speaker 2 and these guys talk like that

Speaker 2 you know I work my fingers to the bone all that like all

Speaker 2 what is that and they're small compared to Ed Sullivan and everything you know kind of feminine in a way because Americans were bigger and and fatter and stuff.

Speaker 2 And these guys were all, you know, like bone thin and spoke strangely. I didn't understand.
I was watching, and I thought, gee, they look weird.

Speaker 2 And I remember my mother coming in and saying, gee, I think they look weird. And bango, at that moment, I said, no, they're cool.

Speaker 2 Because my mother thinks they're weird. You want your own thing.

Speaker 2 You don't want to do Lawrence Welk. You never heard of Lawrence Welk?

Speaker 2 Oh, my God.

Speaker 2 Kill me now. Oh, man.
Lawrence Welk was on every Sunday, and it was mom and dad music. Okay.

Speaker 2 Gotcha. Boy.

Speaker 2 And now we're going to do the polka. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So it says your mom said it was weird, and you were like, that's cool then.

Speaker 2 Right. Uh-huh.

Speaker 1 And it's different. And different is better than.
Different is good. Yeah, different is good.

Speaker 2 But you were,

Speaker 1 I mean, you're a branding and marketing genius when it comes with.

Speaker 2 That word genius is not right. I've been careful, so I win.

Speaker 1 Well, you've been a branding and marketing master at studying and executing it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, at studying and executing how to brand yourself. I mean, your book, Me Inc., you built a personal brand before personal branding was a thing.

Speaker 1 You studied how to be unique and different from seeing the Beatles and other people, I'm assuming.

Speaker 2 Well, more specifically, how to be Disney without the overhead.

Speaker 2 But it's not as difficult as people think it is because unlike other countries, all information is available for free to anyone who wants to put in the time.

Speaker 2 And it was called, it's the house of God, otherwise known as the library.

Speaker 2 Don't forget that second R in the middle. It's not library.
It's library.

Speaker 2 And I used to go to the library every day after yeshiva. I was setting to be a rabbi, but then I discovered girls.
So

Speaker 2 I was in school, yeshiva, which means the sitting, the whole day. And afterwards, I'd go to the library, which was only a few blocks down.

Speaker 2 and I'm the only guy I've ever met or talked to who's actually read the Encyclopædia Britannica. Cover to cover.
Wow.

Speaker 2 I am the corniest, most boring guy at a party.

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Speaker 1 When did you feel like you were able to really monetize the artistic gift that you were developing?

Speaker 2 I take it more either in the country, globally.

Speaker 1 Like, when did that start to happen? You said, oh, this is more than just weekend parties.

Speaker 2 and yeah in 19 um

Speaker 2 even during college i went to the state university um upstate new york took out my own bank loan paid for it myself and all that

Speaker 2 so afternoons i'd be the lifeguard at the pines hotel up in the catskill mountains otherwise called the jewish mountains literally because every weekend you'd have jay lewis there and like all these guys milton burle

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 so I worked right after I'd finished classes and I'd go and make some more money. And on the weekends, the Wicked, not Wicked Lester, but what was it called?

Speaker 2 Bullfrog Beer.

Speaker 2 That was the college band. And we played covers and some of my original songs, which by then I learned how to write my own songs.
Not very good. Two of them or so wound up being kiss songs.

Speaker 2 And during one weekend, I'd make more money with the band having fun with the chicks and the attention and all that than I would the whole week working. It started to make more financial sense.

Speaker 2 Yes, I had more fun. And then I graduated

Speaker 2 1972.

Speaker 2 from the state city university at Richmond College and started teaching sixth grade in Spanish Harlem.

Speaker 2 Segway to being the assistant to the editor of Vogue magazine,

Speaker 2 assistant to the director of the Puerto Rican Interagency Council, a government-funded research and demonstration project, where I saved $23,000 by the time I was 23 years of age.

Speaker 2 I lived at home. Makes more sense.
You want to meet a Jacob? Go to the holiday inn. Otherwise.

Speaker 1 Save your money.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Save your money.

Speaker 2 Lived at home when I didn't need to spend money, but of course I contributed a little bit.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I met another guy

Speaker 2 who shared the love of English music, which is really American music anglicized. We were anglophiles, the Beatles and the Stones and Zeppelin, and you know, all that.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 made our own pastiche,

Speaker 2 our own thing, like they did their own thing of American music.

Speaker 2 and by 1973

Speaker 2 we got signed to Casablanca records a new record label how old were you

Speaker 2 this time roughly just after college 23 okay

Speaker 1 22 and this wasn't was this called kiss at the time or no yes it was we became kiss

Speaker 1 And you're doing, you got signed, but how big were the venues where you were playing before you got signed?

Speaker 2 We played

Speaker 2 from nothing to everything. Really? Yes.
We played New Year's Eve fourth on the bill at the Academy of Music in New York City, 1973-74.

Speaker 2 And two months after that, the first album came out. We were fourth on the bill, Kiss, Teenage Lust, which was a local band.
Iggy Pop and Blue Oyster Cult.

Speaker 2 And on the first... By the third song, I'm Spitting Fire.

Speaker 2 We're in full makeup. My hair catches fire.
And we're on the covers of all the magazines and everything. New band out of me from Hellfire.
And, you know, all this kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 I was just glad to be alive.

Speaker 2 But within a year and a half of coming out

Speaker 2 before MTV, before cell phones, we would still rotary calls. Superman was still going into that booth and changing.
Of course, people can't see him taking off his pants because he's in a phone booth.

Speaker 2 While all this was happening, within a year and a half, we're headlining Anaheim Stadium in Los Angeles. Wow.
Yeah. Just that overnight thing.
We had no hit singles, nothing. Really? Yes.

Speaker 2 It became what the Germans called Zeitgeist, the water cooler conversation.

Speaker 2 The way you spread your brand in those days were rock magazines, circus and raves and all these colorful magazines that had posters.

Speaker 2 And we were always on the cover because the rest of the band is just boring. Yeah, they're not visual.

Speaker 2 so our brand

Speaker 2 and people you know the fans we started selling out multiple days in arenas before we even had a gold record and we just asked backwards so you guys developed the brand almost before you developed the music that's right it's like the you were like let's create the image of us let's create the persona let's you're giving us too much credit we didn't know anything you weren't thinking about it no but that's what happened you were just rock and roll gypsies.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 You were glad you didn't have to do nine to five

Speaker 2 and be in the same cubicle doing the same thing. That's interesting.

Speaker 1 Did you intentionally think about let's be so different so that people pay attention? Or were you just like, let's have fun and just be playful? Or how did this character develop?

Speaker 2 None of that. Scientists either call it a singularity or an anomaly.
We were rehearsing doing these songs that Paul Stanley and I wrote, Stanley Eisen

Speaker 2 or Eisenberger.

Speaker 2 And I started writing, and then Ace Fraley contributed a song or two.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 as we're heard, you know, this kind of sounds pretty good.

Speaker 2 And we had Peter Chris on drums, and everybody could sing, everybody could play.

Speaker 2 And then instead of doing

Speaker 2 a market analysis or anything, I recall clearly, because I never got higher drunk, one of us, and I can't tell you who said, let's go down to Woolworth's, which was like a department stop.

Speaker 2 And it was around Halloween, I believe. And they had a lot of gimmicky things like plastic ice cubes with fake flies in the middle that you could stick in your girlfriend's drink.

Speaker 2 So she'd go, you know, or whoopee cushions. You know what a whoopee cushion is? Yeah, yeah.
You sit on it and make parts.

Speaker 2 And we went down there and said, let's buy clown makeup.

Speaker 2 And we literally, almost like our hands were being directed, bought Stein's clown white, Stein's clown black, black stick. Paul bought red lipstick,

Speaker 2 a few other things.

Speaker 2 And we went up to the rat-infested loft where we rehearsed and found ourselves hypnotically looking in the mirror and putting on makeup without anybody telling anybody what to do or what to think or do.

Speaker 2 It just happened. It sounds suspicious.

Speaker 2 And then when we looked around the room, we were fascinated by, wow, that kind of

Speaker 2 looks cool. Kind of looks different.
Yeah, different, kind of cool. So much so that,

Speaker 2 and because I'm

Speaker 2 kind of a make a list, check it twice, find out I'm that kind of a guy, worked in offices all my life. There was no manager, so I was calling local gigs

Speaker 2 clubs to try to get us, and then booked ourselves in for, I don't know, $35 a night to Coventry. And there was nobody there.
We had my girlfriend, somebody else. There was like five people.

Speaker 2 But for us,

Speaker 2 we were at Madison Square Garden. And then the second show was at The Daisy

Speaker 2 in Amityville, where they had

Speaker 2 Jaws and all that, and the Amityville Horror and all that

Speaker 2 in Long Island

Speaker 2 and shortly thereafter we got signed we barely played any shows

Speaker 1 that's crazy to think of that like

Speaker 1 and then a year and a half later you're selling out arenas

Speaker 2 breaking so much so that within two years of that we're breaking the Beatles record in Japan and playing five days, I think, at the largest arena, Budokan.

Speaker 2 And before bands were playing stadiums, we're doing multiple days in Australia in stadiums. 1980, 1980.

Speaker 1 Where do you think you'd be if you guys didn't put makeup on that first day?

Speaker 2 You mean if I wasn't in a band, or would Kiss have done as well without the makeup?

Speaker 1 Without the makeup. Like, if you guys didn't go to that store and say, hey, let's start putting a makeup on, where do you think the band would be if you never did it like that?

Speaker 1 But you just said, we're going to go out there and play and wear cool, you know, jeans and look like rock stars, but not put on the makeup or the.

Speaker 2 Yeah, jeans is so boring um

Speaker 2 like if i'd have to if i'd have to say

Speaker 2 not as big really you could ask the beatles what would you have gotten as far with the same songs and everything if you didn't have the matching haircuts

Speaker 2 it's always

Speaker 2 pieces of the puzzle that somehow fit that make the whole bigger than the sum of its its parts, which are fancy words that says all of it helps. It did, yeah.

Speaker 2 And if you take like a house of cards, if you take any one of those, it's just one card, maybe all of it comes down. Interesting.

Speaker 1 It's so interesting to think about.

Speaker 2 I guess I made a lot of money for this kind of stuff. Yeah, that's fascinating.

Speaker 1 I'm kind of a big deal. I know.
I know you are. Now, when did it, when did you

Speaker 1 Was there ever a moment in your career where you said early on, where you said, I'm actually going to use this. This is working.

Speaker 1 You know, wearing the makeup, putting on the outfits in this way, it's working. I'm going to make it a character.
I'm going to make it an alter ego.

Speaker 2 I was always aware that character was not the right thing. It's persona.

Speaker 1 Persona, not alter ego.

Speaker 2 Alter egos, and by the way,

Speaker 2 I know people get so upset when I keep bringing up the Jew stuff, but the idea of the alter ego was created by them also. Okay.

Speaker 2 All the superheroes, Superman, yes, Batman, the Hulk, Fantastic, were all created by Jews who dress British, think Yiddish. The idea of the weak man

Speaker 2 and the secret superman,

Speaker 2 their Übermensch. Well, that's Nietzsche.

Speaker 2 And all created by disenfranchised people who never felt powerful. So the superhero was created by those guys who were never lifting weights, couldn't dribble a basketball, but they owned the teams.

Speaker 1 Yeah, or they built the IP or whatever it might be.

Speaker 1 So did you think about building the persona or the alter ego as you were developing the band then?

Speaker 2 No, it happened very quickly, and you react to market. The smart people react to the market.

Speaker 2 And immediately... We didn't think about it, but fans started to make homegrown t-shirts.
Oh, they want t-shirts. Let's make t-shirts.
And they wanted,

Speaker 2 we were aware that if you were a,

Speaker 2 I don't know, a Joe Cocker fan or somebody, you didn't necessarily want to look like Joe Cocker.

Speaker 2 And Joe's a fantastic artist.

Speaker 2 It was music.

Speaker 2 And somehow we would... We didn't plan it.
We want to be unique and all that's true. But we didn't quite understand the cultural significance of the idea that

Speaker 2 you may not be able to be in KISS,

Speaker 2 but you can feel like it.

Speaker 2 How many more tennis rackets did we sell because people bought those and put on KISS makeup and pretended when they were 13 that they were in a band?

Speaker 2 Because just as soon as you, and I'll show you photos of

Speaker 2 Lenny Kravitz when he was 13, They're like, all down the line, he's people going, what the?

Speaker 2 He was kicked out of school for 13, coming to school dressed like that. That's interesting.
But you wouldn't be kicked out of school for coming to school dressed like George Harrison. Right, right.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 But that's not cool.

Speaker 2 No, it is cool, but it doesn't

Speaker 2 get there's nothing negative I can say about the Beatles, but

Speaker 2 market research.

Speaker 2 Market research is a strange thing. It makes assessments based on the way things actually are.

Speaker 2 So Mount Rushmore, you've heard of it.

Speaker 2 Could you tell me who the four faces are? Yes.

Speaker 1 I've been there. I mean.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you've been there and you still don't know. Washington.
Yeah. It bears noting that market research says...
The four KISS faces are more well known on the entire planet than Mount Rushmore.

Speaker 2 That's great. That's great.
You can go to Africa, and as soon as they see one of the four faces, they say, it's KISS.

Speaker 2 If you showed them one of Mount Rushmore's faces, they wouldn't know what it was. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 That's astonishing, isn't it? It is.

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Speaker 1 Did you feel like you were becoming a different person when you would step on stage in that in that persona? And what did that feeling,

Speaker 1 what was that feeling experience like for you on stage in that persona versus Gene Simmons in life offstage?

Speaker 2 I was a

Speaker 2 regular normal guy with regular appetites and, you know, nothing out of the ordinary, and never veered towards self-destructive behavior. Never.

Speaker 1 I'm curious about how you

Speaker 1 started to brand yourself even bigger because Kiss became something much bigger than a band. You know, after the first few years, it was big, obviously, but for decades, you elevated it to.

Speaker 2 I can't say you, it's not fair to Paul.

Speaker 1 The band elevated

Speaker 1 itself to another level.

Speaker 2 Because sometimes

Speaker 2 an idea will come from left field and they go, why don't you, yeah, you know, you're right, we should be doing that.

Speaker 2 So no matter who you are.

Speaker 1 How did you all decide to continue to elevate the brand or maximize the brand? Especially

Speaker 2 in light of the fact that times change, tastes change, and different generations come into it. Cool is a moving target.
Yeah. So I gave ourselves kudos

Speaker 2 to be able to be flexible and move around and do that stuff as

Speaker 2 hair metal bands came in, thrash came in, new romance came, like all through all the different things.

Speaker 2 So we started co-branding

Speaker 2 like Hello Kitty. It's one of the largest brands on the planet for young girls, for little girls.
So Kiss Hello Kitty had about 1,500 co-licenses. Everything

Speaker 2 from

Speaker 2 training bras

Speaker 2 to

Speaker 2 tissue paper to potato chips, you name it. And then we co-branded with

Speaker 2 Family Guy and the...

Speaker 2 and Archie. We had Kiss Archie Comics and

Speaker 2 Astro Boy from Japan and just a lot of what was the biggest licensing deal that KISS did

Speaker 2 KISS

Speaker 1 beyond beyond the band what was the biggest co-branded or licensing deal

Speaker 2 or deal deal

Speaker 2 kitty would probably be really biggest yeah because we were

Speaker 2 endless

Speaker 2 and then they changed ceos actually the CEO

Speaker 2 flew into LA and we had dinner and he and I are sitting next to each other and we're talking about the future. Okay, we're going to to ramp up this clearly working and everything.

Speaker 2 And he said, As soon as I get back to Japan on Monday, it was the weekend coming up.

Speaker 2 I'm going to draw papers and we're going to do some big, big, big stuff. And then he passed away.
And the new CEO just, you know, didn't see it. Oh, that's a bummer.

Speaker 1 Where is the biggest revenue come from these days then with the brand? Is it licensing? Is it still royalties? Is it still music?

Speaker 2 All of it

Speaker 2 music-less

Speaker 2 because entire generations of fans don't pay for music. They download and foul share.
Both of our kids, Nick and Sophie, are massive on Spotify and Shmotify and all the other childlike words. Yahoo!

Speaker 2 Google!

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 Sophie, for instance, is

Speaker 2 managers, co-writes.

Speaker 2 She's

Speaker 2 co-writing a song right now with

Speaker 2 the writer who wrote, Do you believe in love after love? You know, for sure.

Speaker 2 What a small world. Yeah, it's just

Speaker 1 no small world. That's a Disneyland.

Speaker 2 It's a what?

Speaker 1 It's a small world. That's a Disneyland.

Speaker 2 It's a small world, after all.

Speaker 2 As a matter of fact, I recorded When You Wish Upon a Star for my solo record because of how emotionally Jiminy Cricket affected my life.

Speaker 2 I thought when that little insect in the movie goes, Gene, when you wish upon, I thought he was singing to me. I was 12.
Wow. I went out there like in a religious epiphany going,

Speaker 2 I can do great things. Because, Jiminy, your dreams come true.

Speaker 2 I can do it. And that's why I like, if you're not a bad guy, that's why I like guys like like you, because sometimes someplace in Wisconsin, there's somebody

Speaker 2 who possibly might do great things, and the only thing holding himself back is himself.

Speaker 2 And if you can just light that little fire in the belly that, you know, that

Speaker 2 puts the light on, they'll do amazing things. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Did you ever doubt yourself?

Speaker 2 No. Really? I couldn't afford it.

Speaker 1 So you never had any insecurity or self-doubt? Oh, hell no.

Speaker 2 But I'm delusional. I'm aware of it.
I know that I'm not the best-looking guy in the world or the smartest or anything, but I will walk into any room and I will walk out with your girlfriend.

Speaker 2 There's no doubt in my mind. And part and parcel of that has to do with a mindset that's really important that I was only able to recognize many years later.
You're a

Speaker 2 tightrope walker.

Speaker 2 And various ideas and ideals can come into your mind before you walk that tightrope. You might say,

Speaker 2 a lot of people who try to walk this tightrope, there's a decent chance that like, oh,

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 you're hearing and thinking what you're saying. So all the negativity is contributing to the chances of you failing.
And what do all great champions do? They psych themselves up.

Speaker 2 I'm going to get get out there and I'm going to do it.

Speaker 2 And who's listening? You're listening. I'm going to win it.
I am the champion. I am the greatest.
I heard Muhammad Ali doing that, Cassius Clay at that point. I still think it's a cooler name.

Speaker 2 I never heard a human being talk like that publicly. I am the greatest.
I'll sting like a butterfly. Like, who is this guy? Actually, he was stating fact.

Speaker 2 It's our problem that we thought, well, you're not supposed to say that. Why not?

Speaker 2 Why not set greatness in front of you and then work towards achieving it? Yeah, that's true. So I've spent time with Mike Tyson, and I hope he considers me a friend.
I consider him a friend.

Speaker 2 And when you listen to Mike's story, there's no logical reason in the world why he would become the most dangerous man who's ever been in the ring. Nobody.
Yes, I know foreman and

Speaker 2 everybody else.

Speaker 2 He's too short. His arms aren't long.
He fucks like, you know, he hates it when people do that thing. All the negatives you can imagine, except his unwavering belief in himself and the will.
to win.

Speaker 2 The will. Doctors still talk about people who are on the deathbed, and they can't explain why a week later they walk up and walk out the hospital, live another 10 years, except for the will to win.

Speaker 2 And there are other people who drop dead when they just give up yeah

Speaker 1 how did you how did you prepare your mind then or psych yourself no preparation when you go

Speaker 2 when you went on stage though did you prepare prepare or not you just the plane doors open go

Speaker 2 what do you got to lose in America you cannot fail

Speaker 2 you can't fail if you lose all your money you declare chapter seven or chapter eleven and you can start all over again and when that first chick sick would you like to go out with me?

Speaker 2 She says, no, too many fish in the sea. There's tall, one's short, one's fat, one's too.
Just keep swinging that bat. You'll hit it.

Speaker 2 No means nothing.

Speaker 1 That's a good mindset.

Speaker 2 Well, what choice have you got? Yeah. As soon as you say no, as soon as you say, well, I guess I'll give up.
You're done.

Speaker 1 Why do you think so many people, though, live in self-doubt or insecurity and don't go for their dreams?

Speaker 2 There's no reason for it.

Speaker 1 But why do you think so many people live in that space?

Speaker 2 Well, it's safer.

Speaker 2 People are lemmings because it's safer in numbers.

Speaker 2 You don't want to be that one person who says, but that's what leaders are.

Speaker 2 The leaders are the ones, you know, most people have a problem getting up on stage and speaking their mind because you will be judged. People don't like to be judged.
Get over,

Speaker 2 it doesn't matter. Like what? Not everybody likes Jesus either.

Speaker 1 Did you ever care about being judged or being not liked?

Speaker 2 No, I think too much of myself.

Speaker 1 You think highly of yourself. It doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 Well, you're not qualified to have an opinion on yours truly. I'm qualified.
I know where I've been, what I'm doing, what my dreams are, what I'm willing to work at.

Speaker 2 Anybody's other opinion is an opinion at first glance.

Speaker 1 Why do you think so many people care about other people's opinions?

Speaker 1 Because you don't, it sounds like, but why do you think so many other words?

Speaker 2 Or precisely, I could give a f ⁇ . Right.

Speaker 1 But why do so many people care about other stuff?

Speaker 2 It's safer.

Speaker 2 It's safer to be in a group.

Speaker 2 And, you know, when it's time to put Frankenstein on fire when the guy didn't do anything, you know, there's a mob, you know, mob mentality.

Speaker 2 You don't even have to say anything. You can just let the mob carry you.

Speaker 2 It's tough to be that per but those are the leaders of the world. Yeah.
And they don't have to be the most qualified, by the way.

Speaker 2 Some of the people I see on television using

Speaker 2 Christ, you know, they talk, they're hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars. Some of them are not very bright people, but they have this

Speaker 2 presence.

Speaker 2 If you take a look at the most powerful people in history, good and bad, they weren't super tall. They were usually pretty short guys.

Speaker 1 But they had a presence. Excuse me.
But they had a presence.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Some

Speaker 2 illogical belief in themselves. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Whether it's Caesar or Hitler or Napoleon, they have no right to have this, you know, and

Speaker 2 some of them are real bad guys,

Speaker 2 small people,

Speaker 2 but on the inside, giants, giant bad guys and giant good guys.

Speaker 1 I'm curious, with all the

Speaker 1 experience, the travel, the people you've met, who in your mind

Speaker 1 is one of the greatest musicians or the greatest leaders in the world that you've met or seen? Let's talk, keep it in the music world.

Speaker 1 Who's in the top in the music world that you're like, man, that guy or that gal's got it or that group has got it beyond yourself and Kiss?

Speaker 1 Who else who have you seen or met or watched that you're like, wow, they really have it.

Speaker 2 Well, clearly the Beatles are beyond, above and beyond anything that

Speaker 2 anybody's seen in music

Speaker 2 over

Speaker 2 200 years, easily. Not since the Renaissance, which is how you say it, not the Renaissance.

Speaker 2 You have to understand, they only existed seven years.

Speaker 2 And they came from a place that was a pool filled with liver, liver pool,

Speaker 2 where nothing ever happened, high unemployment rate, no experience, no resume,

Speaker 2 no nothing.

Speaker 2 And yet,

Speaker 2 I want to hold your hand.

Speaker 2 What? She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that last chord, that minor ninth, is as sophisticated a chord, if you know about music.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 That thing almost like a jazz chord unheard of in in rock music and okay look i'm going to give you an

Speaker 2 something you'll be able to understand satisfaction is one of the great songs

Speaker 2 that takes about 40 minutes 40 seconds to get to the first thing i can't get no

Speaker 2 yeah

Speaker 2 or anything sunshine of your love bump bump bump bump bump i did it backwards it's a bump, bump, bump, bump, bump, bump, bump, bump. It takes about 50 seconds to get.

Speaker 2 I've been waiting so long and all that. On and on and on.

Speaker 2 The Beatles.

Speaker 2 I just wrote a new song. What is it called?

Speaker 2 It's called Help. How's it going? It goes like this.
Help! I need somebody help. Not even an introduction, nothing.
Got another one for you.

Speaker 2 What is it called? It's called yesterday. How's it going? It goes like this.
Yesterday it got.

Speaker 2 I got another one for you. It's called Michelle.
How's it going? Michelle.

Speaker 2 Got another one for you. It's called Hey Jude.
Not only does it begin with Hey Jude, the word Hey.

Speaker 1 It's before the music.

Speaker 2 Before the music. Yeah.
Hey. De Jude.
And then the chords come in.

Speaker 2 Those are what's called perfect songs. Not only that,

Speaker 2 but

Speaker 2 the title of the song is the first word of the song. It's the most memorable song.
And it's the last word in the song.

Speaker 2 Yesterday.

Speaker 2 The last song. Because I believe in yesterday.

Speaker 2 Who writes songs like that?

Speaker 2 It's undeniable they're writing them. McCartney, especially, by far is the most successful songwriter in all of recorded history.

Speaker 2 There have been over a thousand different artists who've recorded just yesterday.

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Speaker 1 Did you get to spend some time with them?

Speaker 2 With Ringo.

Speaker 2 What was that like?

Speaker 2 Well, there are two stories. In the shared days, she used to have

Speaker 2 these disco roller skating parties where all the celebrities would go, and I didn't care.

Speaker 2 not

Speaker 2 I mean I appreciate you're lucky to be a celebrity but oh my god it's Ursula Andrews I didn't care

Speaker 2 I don't mean to be dismissive just oh there's that person from that commercial TV show

Speaker 2 and I'm sitting because I didn't you know Jews on roller skates is hilarious so I didn't I just sat on the sidelines watching them

Speaker 2 sat on top of the bowling

Speaker 2 anyway on the side with my legs going like this.

Speaker 2 And as everybody's roller skating, then I saw two teenagers coming towards me. So I got up because one of them is wearing a kiss t-shirt with rhinestones.
They're about 15.

Speaker 2 And they came up and once got a big fell of yours. They, you know, speak with an English accent.
Oh, it's okay, sure.

Speaker 2 Doing an autograph. And then I look up, and in back of them, Ringo Starr starts coming towards them.

Speaker 2 And I'm, you know,

Speaker 1 and you're big at this time. You're like, kiss is massive at this time.

Speaker 2 But the Beatles, I couldn't shine their shoes.

Speaker 2 So Ringo comes up, puts his hand, puts his arms around them, and he says, I hope my boys aren't thinking. Ringo's sons are asking me for an autograph.
Wow.

Speaker 2 To slap their little putts' faces and say, How dare you talk to me? Your father's a Beetle.

Speaker 2 It happened again.

Speaker 2 We were playing oh one other time we were having a party up in the uh hollywood hills and ringo had a la manager at that time a guy named eric gardner and shannon my wifey and i are saying i'm eating salads i hate salads and i'm eating salads and ringo's coming up to say hello And he sent me a birthday.

Speaker 2 He said, oh, happy birthday, Jane.

Speaker 2 If you can't tell me, can't say how much that means to me. And i'm eating so i gibber and think

Speaker 2 and he comes up to me and i'm much bigger than he is so i didn't know what to do so i picked him up

Speaker 2 and his feet are dank wringles about five six five i don't know or maybe five i'm six two

Speaker 2 so i picked him up you know because i wanted to hold i don't know what else to do i didn't want to shake his feet

Speaker 2 and i'm smiling i didn't even remember what i'm talking

Speaker 2 and he said would you put me down so i put him down and he walked off. All right.

Speaker 2 And I'm smiling, looking at Sandy. She goes,

Speaker 2 You got Godzilla size. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 Salad in your teeth.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Like a big thing sticking out.
And I'm like, his face is right here.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 yeah, just get over yourself. No matter who you are.
If you're the Pope.

Speaker 2 I know you got a poop just like I do.

Speaker 2 Nobody's, I don't have that hierarchy thing.

Speaker 2 So I've met everybody from His Holiness to Dalai Lama to Presidents Cutin and Bush and everything, and they've achieved greatness in their field, but we all fart. Yeah,

Speaker 1 what have you learned about fame that you wish everyone knew?

Speaker 2 If you become famous,

Speaker 2 not always, but by and large, makes a good living.

Speaker 2 The rest is how you can handle it or not.

Speaker 2 Because

Speaker 2 there are

Speaker 2 I would say lots of famous people rappers a lot of rappers who surround themselves with yes men and yes women

Speaker 2 a posse so that and I admire rap don't misunderstand so that when you go someplace you have that cushion of support

Speaker 2 so it says publicly i am somebody

Speaker 2 Whereas if you didn't have the fame, they wouldn't hang out. They're parasites and vampires.

Speaker 2 They're only around you because you have money and favorite and they get free booze and free chicks and free all that stuff. They're using you.
You're using them also to say, look, I'm somebody.

Speaker 2 So why do rappers, a lot of rappers, some sports guys, why do they go to clubs with a group? to advertise that they're somebody.

Speaker 2 I won't play that game. i drive here myself i wipe my own ass

Speaker 1 you have no possa yeah you came alone here you're no i'm just happy i can uh

Speaker 2 earn a living a good living yeah and the rest doesn't mean anything yeah i mean you've made a lot of money though at this point what's a lot

Speaker 1 made a lot more 99 more than most of the people in america probably right like the amount of money you make i would say that's true 99 more yeah so you've made a lot what number is a lot because it's all relative of course what what is driving you at this season of your life to make more money what's driving you to make more money when you have made 99 more than most people as an athlete yourself if you've broken the

Speaker 2 if you're the fastest human being on two legs and after all the cameras are out and the chicks are gone and the awards are gone and the money people got you're just there by yourself Do you wake up at the crack of dawn the next day and try to break your own record?

Speaker 2 Yeah. Of course.
That's what made you a champion in the first place so i'm gonna be 76 i'm 75 now i don't know about you but the race is closer to being over

Speaker 2 than the beginning

Speaker 2 i don't know about you but when the looks like the race line the finish line is coming i run faster don't you yeah to finish finish strong yeah what are you going to do just

Speaker 2 or sit back and watch somebody else's ball game as they go by now No,

Speaker 2 that's if you appreciate life. If you love life, man, oh man,

Speaker 2 I'm glad every day I can

Speaker 2 have a hot foot Sunday and a good back rub, a lap dance every once in a while,

Speaker 2 and then you die. That's all.
That's it, yeah.

Speaker 1 Gene, this has been really powerful. We've been going for a while now.
A lot of fascinating stories.

Speaker 1 I want to close with one final question with you. Before I ask the question, I want people to follow you, Gene Simmons Simmons on Instagram.

Speaker 2 Oh, I hate that.

Speaker 1 Where should we go follow you?

Speaker 2 GeneSimmons.com. Okay.
You can do Instagram, but my kids take care of that. I never go on.

Speaker 2 Just 30 seconds of somebody watching, 30 seconds of somebody showing how they can pick their nose.

Speaker 1 So gene Simmons.com has got all your information because you're doing the solo tour. You've got different stuff, different businesses, projects.

Speaker 2 Big company and

Speaker 2 restaurant chains and a lot of stuff.

Speaker 1 Crushing it still. You're finishing.

Speaker 2 You're going strong.

Speaker 1 Start strong and finish strong. This has been fascinating, interesting.
But I have one final question for you, and that's what's your definition of greatness?

Speaker 2 You will never reach greatness.

Speaker 2 You shouldn't think of it that way. The hunt is always

Speaker 2 what it should be about, not to kill.

Speaker 2 Once you kill something or once you finish that, you know, it's fine, but it's fleeting. But

Speaker 2 when your blood's pumping, your heart's pumping, and it's always about the hunt. That's what life is about.

Speaker 2 And I'd like to think the very last breath I take is going to be like, yeah,

Speaker 2 been there, done that. In fact, I know what it's going to say on my tombstone.

Speaker 2 Thank you and good night.

Speaker 2 Because

Speaker 2 I would imagine to lots of tombstones. I wish I coulda, woulda, shoulda, coulda, and all that stuff.

Speaker 2 No regrets.

Speaker 2 Kissed a few girls, had a great family, made a good living, provided jobs for people, gave to charity of stuff.

Speaker 2 I was good for this planet. I made the planet just a wee bit better

Speaker 2 than it was before I was here. In fact,

Speaker 2 wouldn't it be great if all of humanity and there's about 8 billion of us before we drop dead

Speaker 2 if we could make the world just this much better times 8 billion, imagine the profound difference it would make. You don't have to give everything away, just little bits.

Speaker 1 Gene, thanks for the fascinating conversation.

Speaker 1 I have a brand new book called Make Money Easy.

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Speaker 1 I really think this is going to help you transform your relationship with money this moment moving forward. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness.

Speaker 1 Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links.

Speaker 1 And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts.

Speaker 1 Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review.

Speaker 1 I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward.

Speaker 1 And I want to remind you: if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something

Speaker 2 great.

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Speaker 5 What does it mean to live a rich life? It means brave first leaps, tearful goodbyes, and everything in between.

Speaker 5 With over 100 years' experience navigating the ups and downs of the market and of life, your Edward Jones financial advisor will be there to help you move ahead with confidence.

Speaker 5 Because, with all you've done to find your rich, we'll do all we can to help you keep enjoying it. Edward Jones, member SIPC.