The #1 Thing Impacting Your Sleep More Than You Know & How To Overcome It

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Speaker 1 If you have ever experienced some crazy dreams or sleep paralysis, or you just struggle at night with really finding the peace and harmony that you're looking for, this episode is going to be extremely powerful because we have Dr.

Speaker 1 Bilan Jalal on this episode, who is a neuroscientist and Harvard researcher and one of the leading experts on sleep paralysis and lucid dreaming.

Speaker 1 He shares the cutting-edge science behind sleep paralysis, dream states, and consciousness, and how these unusual experiences can actually become a gateway for healing, creativity, and deeper self-awareness.

Speaker 1 We talk about what sleep paralysis is and why it happens to more people than you think, how the brain wakes up while the body stays frozen during REM sleep, and why terrifying nightmare visions during sleep paralysis are actually biological.

Speaker 1 Talk about how to turn sleep paralysis into a tool for lucid dreaming and transformation. That and so much more.
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Speaker 1 But one of the things that you talk about is understanding dreams, lucid dreaming, and sleep paralysis.

Speaker 1 And I have experienced sleep paralysis maybe a handful of times in my life. And I think I understand what it is.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's the part where you wake up

Speaker 1 and you can't speak, you can't move, and you feel like you're screaming. At least for me, it's like, I feel like I'm screaming, but I can't move my body, but my eyes are open.

Speaker 1 Sometimes my eyes are not open, but I know I'm awake, trying to move, and it's like you're paralyzed.

Speaker 1 Would that describe sleep paralysis?

Speaker 2 Yes, it would. I mean, sleep paralysis is basically you lying flat on your bed, you know, opening your eyes.
So your eyelids are, you know, working. You're awake.
You're awake, right?

Speaker 2 Or you're partially awake, so to speak, and you can scan the room, yet you're paralyzed from head to toe. So you have the paralysis.

Speaker 1 It's terrifying. It's terrifying.

Speaker 2 How many times have you had experienced it? I've had many times, many times. I've had it over, yeah, maybe 50, 60 times.

Speaker 1 50, 60 times. I would say so, yeah.
What was the first time you experienced sleep paralysis?

Speaker 2 Well, the first time, I would say the most crazy time that I had, it was kind of I was I was straight out of high school. I grew up in Copenhagen and in the like a ghetto area in Copenhagen.

Speaker 2 And I was I was sleeping in my bed one morning and I suddenly had this feeling that some monstrous creature was in the bed. So I was kind of sleeping, but I felt awake.

Speaker 2 And then at this point, I realized actually paralyzed from head to toe. I couldn't move, I couldn't speak.
I wanted to say something, but I couldn't.

Speaker 2 And this feeling got stronger and stronger with each second. So I just felt like, what's going on? What's happening? There's this ominous presence in the room.

Speaker 2 And the creature got sort of closer and closer until it was on my chest, you know, strangling me, pressing on my chest. And I saw my legs flying up and down and it was just crazy experience.

Speaker 2 And I didn't actually see the ghost at this point. And there was, I could just feel its presence.

Speaker 2 So it's very common to actually feel like there's a ghost, so it's like a sense presence, but no actually visible ghost being in the room. So that's one sort of manifestation of sleep paralysis.

Speaker 2 So I felt the ghost there.

Speaker 2 The next day I woke up. I said, what do I do?

Speaker 2 Do I tell my parents about this? Do I go tell them like that ghost was in my room? It's trying to choke me and kill me.

Speaker 1 So you were dreaming still. You weren't awake.

Speaker 2 I was.

Speaker 2 You could say that I was partially awake.

Speaker 1 Were your eyes open or no?

Speaker 2 My eyes were open. My eyes were open.
So during sleep paralysis, this is important to sort of add is that the brain is sort of

Speaker 2 partially awake. You can say that

Speaker 2 In the brain, you have a structure called the prefrontal cortex, which is the outer layer of the brain, the prefrontal. So the outer layer has six layers.
It's sort of six layers deep.

Speaker 2 And in this part is the CEO of the brain. It's the part of the brain that's active when you're awake.

Speaker 1 The captain of the ship.

Speaker 2 It's the CEO, the head office, the captain. So this part of the brain turns on partially during sleep paralysis.

Speaker 2 So when you are in REM sleep dreaming, right, so you are in REM, which is the stage of sleep where you have vivid, lifelike, crisp dreams. This part of the brain, the CEO, turns off.

Speaker 2 It sort of goes into hibernation.

Speaker 2 When you are in sleep paralysis, it partially turns on. So it's sort of wakefulness clashing with the dream world.

Speaker 2 And we could go deeper into that, how it actually emerges out of REM sleep, because that's really interesting, how sleep paralysis actually comes out of the dreaming world and sort of hits you like that.

Speaker 2 That's, I think, quite fascinating. But so this happened to me.
And I was, so I woke up and I was like, do I go to my parents? It was crazy because that was sort of the black sheep in the family.

Speaker 2 And I felt like if I go tell them about the monsters and all that, it wouldn't look good. So do I Google this? This was like, you know, 20 years ago.
So what do I, you know,

Speaker 2 do I go tell my parents? How do I, how do I deal with this? So the way I, you know, I was trying to figure out what it is. And eventually it got me to the library reading about, you know.

Speaker 2 REM sleep dreams and all that. And actually this experience was the catalyst for me to go and study sleep paralysis around the world.
Yeah. So this really triggered it.
So

Speaker 1 what did you find? I mean, what was your answer, I guess, after studying this for 20 years and researching it from this sleep paralysis demonic event that you experienced,

Speaker 1 what was the answer to it?

Speaker 2 So the answer,

Speaker 2 that's a big question. So we're going straight into the deeper, deep questions.

Speaker 2 I would say for me,

Speaker 2 What was intriguing about this experience was the fact that I had a sense of a creature, an evil being that felt so real. It was as real as this conversation you and I are having right now.

Speaker 2 It has that realness to it. So this really got, this took me aback, the fact that it was so real.

Speaker 1 Was it real?

Speaker 2 It felt real. And a lot of people will say it's real.
They will say it's ghosts, it's demons, it's space aliens. So there's all these cultural ideas around the world for what sleep paralysis is.

Speaker 2 And for me to answer you what sleep paralysis is, actually, I cannot even give you a full answer today, even though I've studied this in about six seven countries i can't tell you for sure sleep paralysis is this and that well we can say the fact that well sleep paralysis the actual paralysis is in the lower part of the brain called there's a region called the brainstem it's composed of regions called the pons and medulla for the technical folks the pons and medulla when you are in rem sleep it sends signals down the spinal cord to paralyze you during REM sleep.

Speaker 2 And this is important because you don't want to act out your dream and hurt yourself. Uh-huh.

Speaker 1 Right. So you're almost paralyzed when you sleep, anyways.

Speaker 2 So you are paralyzed during REM sleep.

Speaker 1 Because you're not moving. You're not moving.

Speaker 2 So you are paralyzed during REM sleep.

Speaker 1 But you're not awake, aware of it.

Speaker 2 You're not aware of it, right? And the reason for this paralysis is very simple. The brain is clever.

Speaker 2 It says, look, I'm dreaming about, you know, I'm on the moon having tea with the Queen of England and I'm

Speaker 2 jumping out of airplanes and I'm doing all this crazy stuff.

Speaker 2 I don't want you to, I don't want Baland, I don't want Louis to act out these dreams that hurt himself, so I'm going to paralyze his entire body. This is a clever trick for survival.

Speaker 2 You don't want to hurt your sleeping partner either, right? So you have this complete lockdown of the body. It's sort of a physiological straitjacket of sorts.
So it's very clever.

Speaker 2 So you have that during REM sleep, rapid eye movement sleep. Now your eyes, of course, are moving side to side.

Speaker 2 And that has to do with the fact that there's a different circuit in the brain for eye movements. But that circuit for paralysis is different.
That's the brainstem. That's the lower part of the brain.

Speaker 2 So the CEO is up here, which is involved in higher-order thinking, rational thought, you know, captain of the ship.

Speaker 2 And then you have the lower part of the brain that is involved in things like paralyzing your physical body. So

Speaker 2 you're paralyzed from head to toe during sleep paralysis. Now,

Speaker 2 what actually happens during sleep paralysis is the following, Lewis.

Speaker 2 During wakefulness,

Speaker 2 when you actually wake up, you have a little structure in the brain called the Lucas Ceruleus. Again, a technical name for the technical folks.
It sends out a chemical that's called noadrenaline.

Speaker 2 It's the chemical cousin of adrenaline. So you have adrenaline in the body when you're doing your handball and sports and all that.
You have adrenaline, you feel agitated, and you feel excited.

Speaker 2 But when you, in the brain, you have noadrenaline. You have some noradrenaline in the body as well, but mainly noadrenaline.
Keeps you sharp, keeps you focused, keeps you alert.

Speaker 2 So when I'm walking about in Hollywood here and

Speaker 2 a car is coming towards me and I feel stressed out, I have a lot of noadrenaline.

Speaker 2 Now,

Speaker 2 when you wake up,

Speaker 2 so during REM sleep, during this stage of sleep when you're dreaming, noadrenaline is shut off. You have no noadrenaline.
And that's why the world is so spaced.

Speaker 2 That's why things are not really sharp and focused, but everything is sort of all over the place. That has to do with the fact that noadrenaline is shut off.
It makes things open.

Speaker 2 It opens the gates of exploration, right?

Speaker 2 Now, when sleep paralysis strikes, what happens is that you sort of wake up and then you have noadrenaline,

Speaker 2 you know, flooding the system prematurely. So you start waking up and tickling the CEO so it becomes partially awake, but you're still stuck in the paralysis phase of sleep.

Speaker 1 The back side of the brain that's controlling the paralysis still is still holding on.

Speaker 2 It's almost like a clash of wakefulness and

Speaker 2 dream and the dream world. They're sort of clashing in this in this weird world where these two that's so interesting because it's only happened a handful of times for me, but every time it happens,

Speaker 1 it feels like, I don't know what the feeling is for me, almost like

Speaker 1 you, it's almost like you're suffocating and you feel like it's going to last forever. You're like, I can't move.
And what if this is stuck forever like this?

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 And I'm paralyzed forever. Yeah.
And it probably only lasts like five to 10 seconds, but it feels like five hours.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Like,

Speaker 1 wake up, you know, you feel like you're screaming. Exactly.
Wake me up. Yeah.
But nothing's coming out.

Speaker 2 Nothing coming out. Yeah.
But the same thing for me. I mean, the times that I've had it, I first time I thought I'm going to die.
I was sure. So I thought, I'm sure I'm going to die.

Speaker 2 And it felt like an eternity. And that's when, when we interview people around the world, they will say, like, it feels like it lasts for hours.

Speaker 1 And it might be seconds, right?

Speaker 2 And it might be seconds. And in fact, it turns out when you sort of compare cultures where there is, there are certain cultural ideas for it.
So I've done research in Egypt, for example.

Speaker 2 I've done it in Egypt. And people would say it's the evil genies like of Aladdin, you know, the comes out of a lamb and they can kill you, but it's not the good ones, like the good, right?

Speaker 2 It's not Robin Williams, right? It's the evil, big, you know, terrifying ones, right? That

Speaker 2 want to control you and kill you and all that. So in Egypt, they will say it's the genies of Aladdin.
They will kill you, potentially terrorize you, do all kinds of horrible things to you.

Speaker 2 And it turns out when you have this cultural idea, it can change the way it sort of unfolds.

Speaker 2 So one study we did, we did one study in Egypt and compared that to sleep paralysis in, you know, in Denmark, my home country.

Speaker 2 In my home country, in Denmark, people say it's just the brain, it's the stress, it's just physiology. There's no spirituality there at all.

Speaker 2 And so in our study, we had deep, in-depth interview asking people, what do you think sleep paralysis does to you? How do you think it can affect you? Can you kill you? Can you die from this?

Speaker 2 Is there a monster? What's the name of the monster? And invariably, we found that

Speaker 2 in Egypt, people will say it's the genies. They can kill you.
They could do all these horrible things to you.

Speaker 1 Cast spells on you or something like that.

Speaker 2 Spells on you. And so just the whole idea was crazy.
But then more than that, we found that this cultural idea for what sleep paralysis means trickled into sort of a

Speaker 2 what you'd call a salience of an experience becoming amplified, the whole experience becoming much more real in a sense. So they would say it lasts much longer.

Speaker 2 So the experience was amplified in this way. In Egypt.
In Egypt, exactly, in Egypt. Versus in Denmark, it's just like a few seconds, it's nothing.
It's just like, it's just over like this, right?

Speaker 1 So it's almost their perception of what it is.

Speaker 2 Their perception shifts completely, exactly.

Speaker 1 Based on the meaning they give it.

Speaker 2 Based on the meaning, based on that.

Speaker 1 If it's a religious, spiritual, demonic undertone. Exactly.

Speaker 1 And through thousands of years of cultural

Speaker 1 imprint,

Speaker 1 then it's like, oh, we believe this to be true based on our history, based on religion or spiritual beliefs.

Speaker 1 Whereas in Denmark or other cultures like Denmark, without that history, it's just, oh, it's just a defect in the brain that happens every once in a while and you just move on or something.

Speaker 2 Absolutely. That is exactly correct.

Speaker 1 There's less emphasis of the power it has.

Speaker 2 Right. Interesting.
This is very true. And then they would say, not only that, we fear it much more to the extent that this is the Egyptian speaking.
We can die from this. It's potentially fatal.

Speaker 2 Interesting. Right.

Speaker 2 And then they would say, the paralysis is

Speaker 2 So we say it's much more, oh, it's much more frequent as well. So this is it.
So it's first of all, it's much more fearful to the point it can be fatal.

Speaker 2 The paralysis lasts much longer, but also it's much more frequent in them.

Speaker 2 In other words, if you are an experiencer in Egypt who has sleep paralysis, it occurs three times more than a Danish experiencer. And I'll tell you why we think this is the case.
I'll give you

Speaker 2 this anecdote here. Actually, it's sort of a fictitious story about a girl I call Little Lisa.
She lives on this fictitious island.

Speaker 2 And on this fictitious island, her grandmother will tell her about these monsters that come at night. They will kill you potentially.
They can do all kinds of sexual molestation to you.

Speaker 2 By the way, sexual molestation is common. The idea of feeling like you're being raped during the experience as well.

Speaker 2 And the grandmother will tell little Lisa,

Speaker 2 the monster looks like this and that. It has these features.

Speaker 2 Be careful when you go to sleep. And mind you, little Lisa has never had sleep paralysis before.

Speaker 2 Now, little Lisa, completely inexperienced, no sleep paralysis ever, goes to bed. And lo and behold, she has sleep paralysis the first time in her life.

Speaker 2 Not only that, the monster looks exactly like the grandmother was telling her. So it has all the features, all the characteristics, the long fangs,

Speaker 2 everything,

Speaker 2 all the traits, right? Freddy Krueger, like monster, is appearing.

Speaker 1 The boogeyman.

Speaker 2 The boogeyman.

Speaker 2 Next day, she wakes up. She's anxious, she's terrified.
She has it again.

Speaker 2 Three days later, she has it again.

Speaker 2 A week later, she has it again, a month it becomes chronic all of a sudden.

Speaker 2 And I'm, you know, and she and she starts developing PTSD and anxiety, trauma from you know, trauma as well, and tells her friends about it who start having it as too.

Speaker 2 Now, Louis might be asking, What's going on? What's happening? Why would this have this effect?

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 it turns out when you have sleep problem, when you are fearful, first of all. So little Lisa, she had anxiety and fear when she went to bed.

Speaker 2 And that will cause her to have what's called nocturnal arousal, meaning it's a fancy name for in the brain, you have a structure called the limbic structure, limbic center, tucked behind your ears.

Speaker 2 That's the emotional part of the brain.

Speaker 2 When you go to bed and you have a lot of emotion and emotionality tickling and you know titillating other parts of the brain, especially the CEO the cortex that can lead it to become prematurely aroused and wake you up during REM stage of sleep so it's almost like a priming effect

Speaker 2 so little Lisa was primed

Speaker 2 next she will have what's called a self-conformatory behavior meaning she's lying there and she goes

Speaker 2 is there any monster holding me down is anything holding me and squeezing me like my grandmother was telling me and she's sort of living in fear.

Speaker 2 She's living in fear and kind of self-monitoring, right, in this way. And then, obviously, if she does this in REM sleep and tries to move, what will she encounter? Paralysis, right?

Speaker 2 And it would feel like something's actually holding her down, and she starts to wake herself up. So that's step number two.
Now she's paralyzed and she's waking herself up.

Speaker 2 Here comes the third part.

Speaker 2 Now, because because sleep paralysis emerges out of REM sleep, rapid eye movement sleep, it's obviously a REM dream phenomenon, meaning the REM part of the brain can trickle into the experience.

Speaker 2 It can spill over, almost like augmented reality, like goggles, and the dream world is coming alive before your eyes. And this is kind of

Speaker 2 think of the during the dream, when you're dreaming,

Speaker 2 certain parts of the brain are more active than when you're awake. So for example, the hippocampus, meaning the memory part of the brain is more active.

Speaker 2 It kind of becomes, it blossoms with activity, dances with activity.

Speaker 2 And this memory part of the brain, if it's active during this sleep paralysis stage and during this kind of half, half, half dream stage, all the stuff the grandmother was telling her about the mantra looking this and that.

Speaker 2 can then

Speaker 2 start to go into the experience. So she starts seeing what the grandmother was telling her.
The mantra will spill over in a dream-like fantasy, an imagination of sorts. So she'll have that.

Speaker 2 The emotional part of the brain, the fear centers of the brain are hyperactive when we're dreaming, about 30% more active in the dream state. So she'll have that.

Speaker 2 By the way, when we're dreaming, the parts of the brain that has to do with a sense of a body image, the feeling like I occupy this body and I feel anchored in this body, Balance body, this is, I feel anchored here, that part of the brain also becomes dysfunctional.

Speaker 2 So you feel like your sense of body image is kind of all over the place. And so that can trickle into the experience.
So you feel like your sense of self is shut, it's weird.

Speaker 2 You may have an out-of-body experience while the ghost is there too. So she might have that too.

Speaker 2 And everything, all you can imagine from the brain is kind of,

Speaker 2 it's going into the experience. And she's seeing the monster that her grandmother was telling her

Speaker 2 in perfect detail.

Speaker 2 Now she wakes up, she's anxious and terrified extremely terrified to go to sleep and we actually see a lot of people with sleep paralysis they feel like that

Speaker 2 being they feel they have fear of going to sleep sleep itself is something that's terrifying and so because of that fear and anxiety now she'll even be even more predisposed to having sleep paralysis yes so she goes to bed has it has it again Three or four days later, as we said, she had it have it again.

Speaker 2 And the reason why it becomes so chronic now is because the whole meaning point that you brought up and the fact that the monster is not only

Speaker 2 attacking me once, it's a personal thing. Oh, man.
I'm being, I'm possessed now. It's completely like it's being chased.
It's it wants me for some reason. It's after me.
And so

Speaker 2 this is the whole, this is the whole sort of thing that the conclusion you mentioned, right? What's what's sleep paralysis? This is the whole idea.

Speaker 2 And then you can potentially become highly anxious and even traumatized from this.

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Speaker 1 Here's something I'm curious about. We talked about monsters, demons, ghosts, aliens.

Speaker 1 Are monsters...

Speaker 1 Aliens, ghosts, the boogeyman, are these things potentially real in life?

Speaker 1 Or is everything an imagination that a demon is chasing me in my room, that something is, a spiritual ghost is trying to harm me? Or is this cultural, religious, societal

Speaker 1 visualizations, imaginations, stories that have been imprinted in our mind and our hearts, in our being, where our brain fantasizes about these things so much that it believes these things are true?

Speaker 1 Or is it just the imagination that makes it feel like it's true?

Speaker 2 It's a big one.

Speaker 1 As a neuroscientist researcher, what have you discovered?

Speaker 2 What have I discovered? So there's me, there's the person, Balan, the scientist,

Speaker 2 and then there's the science.

Speaker 2 Personally, I'm a spiritual person. I'm a Muslim, and I believe that there's a spiritual world.
There's a world that we cannot see, an unseen world. And

Speaker 2 many of my scientist colleagues, I've worked with some of the, I've been fortunate. I was, I wasn't even of my doing.
I was just blessed to work with some of the greatest scientists.

Speaker 2 And behind closed doors, they'll believe in things like prayer and God and things like that.

Speaker 1 So even though it's not science-based, even though it's not science-based. They still do it because they know the benefits of it.

Speaker 2 They know the benefits, but also

Speaker 2 who says it's not real.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 Right. And I think

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 when you think about it, right, a hundred years ago, 150 years ago, if I was telling you, Lewis, on your body right now, there's all these small animals crawling, trillions of them on your skin.

Speaker 2 I said you're crazy. I said you're crazy.

Speaker 1 But we know there's a microscope. There is a microbiome.

Speaker 2 Yes, and we developed and we invented the microscope, and now we know that they're all this, right? So before the advent, like before we invented the microscope,

Speaker 2 it was insane to say this. So same goes with a metaphysical reality around us, spirituality, God,

Speaker 2 whatever, the unseen world

Speaker 2 of sorts.

Speaker 2 And who says it doesn't exist? So science cannot answer whether there's actually spirituality.

Speaker 2 Now, my work has been, ironically, even though I believe in spirituality, the fact that has been to understand why do we see ghosts and what's going on in the brain.

Speaker 2 I have to be truthful to the science and say, well, look, when I zap this part of the the brain called the TPJ,

Speaker 2 if I zap it with an electrical current, you will feel like there's a ghost behind you mimicking your postures and movements.

Speaker 1 So we can create a ghost. This part of your brain.

Speaker 2 This part of the brain, a little structure.

Speaker 1 Electrical shock there.

Speaker 2 It could even be a magnet just stimulating it and you will feel like disrupted. When it's disrupted, you will feel like there's a ghost behind you.
It's mimicking you.

Speaker 2 So if you move like your hand like this, it will also move its hand. So it kind of feels like you is, in fact, we scientists say it is you.
We just create a a double of you. It's a copy of you.

Speaker 2 That's interesting. And that has to do with the fact that a sense of self is created in the brain.

Speaker 2 Your brain uses sensory modalities like touch, vision, hearing, and then weaves together a sense of a self. Comes about in those regions in the brain, the TPJ and the parietal.

Speaker 2 It's kind of a multimedia media studio, kind of like your studio. We have it up here.
and that creates a sense of a self. It weaves it together.

Speaker 2 You can disrupt that and then you will feel like there's a ghost in the room.

Speaker 2 Some of the same structures are disrupted during sleep paralysis as well. So that can explain why there are ghosts there.
I have a whole theory.

Speaker 2 I spent 10 years writing about how these structures can affect, you know, make you see ghosts in the room.

Speaker 2 But that doesn't change the fact that there could be energies from other dimensions and galaxies and worlds that we cannot see, spiritual dimensions. that I cannot negate.

Speaker 2 In fact, I may even believe it personally, that you know, that there are things like that.

Speaker 2 So we just, when I go and do it, when I go and do my science, I obviously don't think in those ways because I have to be truthful to the knowledge that is currently present.

Speaker 2 I don't have a microscope to

Speaker 2 peer into the

Speaker 2 spiritual world, but I can tell you this is the brain. This is the area of the TPJ that's disrupted.
This is the prefrontal that's shut down. This is the lower part of the brain that's paralyzing you.

Speaker 2 So that I can say, and that's my job to say. And some, you know, often you'll feel like, you know, when people learn about the scientific basis of sleep paralysis, the fear vanishes as well.

Speaker 2 So that's very helpful. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 But you asked about meditation and meditation therapy, maybe. So maybe I can go into that because

Speaker 2 that's a very practical way to deal with it.

Speaker 2 The way I came, you know, this.

Speaker 2 invented this therapy and this was during my grad school years when I was in Cambridge, England. And, you know,

Speaker 2 over there, we spent a lot of time thinking about new ways of doing therapies and all that. And I was thinking about like, how can I help people with sleep paralysis? What's the way to help them?

Speaker 2 And I noticed that a lot of people with sleep paralysis will say,

Speaker 2 when I have the experience, I pray to God

Speaker 2 and it actually helps. The monster seems to dissipate.

Speaker 2 Myself too when I was there and to be honest with you, you know, you know, I started to pray too because I thought I was going to die.

Speaker 2 So, I was like, a few times I was like, God, help me, what's going on?

Speaker 2 You know, I tried to do that, and it kind of seems to help to pray to a deity or having some kind of belief and hope in something greater coming and rescuing you.

Speaker 2 So, I wanted to bring that element into the experience. So, the therapy is four steps.
The first step is the following.

Speaker 2 It's called cognitive reappraisal. That's the fancy name for it.
And it's basically

Speaker 2 a mental shifting of the experience. So you say,

Speaker 2 I know I'm having sleep paralysis right now. I know I'm being attacked by something, but because it's just sleep paralysis,

Speaker 2 I should, there's no reason for me to be scared.

Speaker 2 You know, there's no reason for me. People all around the world are having sleep paralysis now.
Nobody's dying from this. So I'm doing a cognitive restructuring of the whole experience.

Speaker 2 So it's sort of a mental interpretation shifting.

Speaker 2 That's the first element.

Speaker 2 Next, the next step that you do is, it's called emotional and psychological distancing, meaning given that it's the brain, given that it's the mind playing tricks on you, there's no reason for me to be scared.

Speaker 2 So I psychologically distance myself from it. I just kind of think of it as something that's far away and I won't actually let myself get absorbed into it.
That's the second step.

Speaker 2 Now here comes your meditation step. We know that the brain has very limited attentional capacities at any given time.
I can only attend to so many things in the room. I don't have infinite attention.

Speaker 2 It's the frontal and parietal regions of the brain, the front and this part that's involved in attentional capacities. Have you seen that YouTube clip of the,

Speaker 2 you know, there's like you're there's somebody playing with a ball and then there's a clown going, moonwalking and then you can't, you don't notice it because you're so focused on

Speaker 2 counting the ball. So, attention is very limited, right?

Speaker 1 It's what magicians do very well.

Speaker 1 You know, it's sweat of hand, it's perception, it's grabbing attention here, and something else happening there.

Speaker 2 Absolutely.

Speaker 2 So, I wanted to incorporate that by hijacking your attention to something positive. So, it goes something like this: you focus all your attention on something extremely positive, like

Speaker 2 God,

Speaker 2 your mom's face, you know, your your niece's face, whatever brings you

Speaker 2 a joyful memory, you bring it to light, you bring it to mind, and you think about it in an intensely focused manner. So it's a kind of a focused attention meditation.

Speaker 2 Now, the powerful thing about this is that

Speaker 2 not only are you redirecting your attention away from thinking about monsters and all the memory parts of the brain, all the grandmothers talk about monsters, hijacking the experience, you are sort of shifting the focus of the emotional core of the brain to something positive.

Speaker 2 And we actually know that there are circuits in the brain from the emotional part that goes to the visual part. And they can tell you what to see in the world.

Speaker 2 Literally, meaning that if I have a fearful mindset, if I have fear centers in my brain bubbling away, it can affect what I see in the world versus versus having a very, if you're very calm, soothed, in a very relaxed, positive mindset, it can also affect your world and worldview.

Speaker 2 And so, in that way, I'm trying to also bias the visual parts of the brain. So, you have that as well.

Speaker 2 So, you focus on something extremely positive. And then, a fourth step will be to then

Speaker 2 what's called a muscle relaxation. You don't try to move or try to act out the paralysis sensations.
You kind of stay in a mindful, non-judgmental

Speaker 2 thought,

Speaker 2 you know, mindset about that. You don't really do anything.
You don't try to move or try to become agitated. And oh, I'm going to scream and I'm trying to try to do that.

Speaker 2 You know, I'm just going to stay mindful and just let it slide kind of. So you do these four steps during the sleep paralysis experience.

Speaker 2 And as you say, we were very fortunate to see a 50% reduction in sleep paralysis. Now, this was a small pilot study.
We always have to start small and then build up, but it was very promising.

Speaker 1 That's great. So the four different things is mental shifting or mental restructuring, which is kind of like rewriting the story.

Speaker 1 What I'm going to say, if you've experienced this in the past a few times, how can you rewrite the story, reshift, restructure mentally what has happened?

Speaker 1 to create more meaning from it and less fear from it. The second one, creating emotional and psychological distancing, which I think is really powerful.

Speaker 1 It's almost like compartmentalizing in a way, but allowing allowing yourself to not be attached mentally or emotionally to the experiences.

Speaker 1 Third thing, focusing your attention on joyful memory-positive moments. So instead of focusing on the fear of it happening again, what if this happens again? Put your attention on your mother's face.

Speaker 1 Yep, yep. A joyful moment with your family, a loved one.

Speaker 1 And the fourth one is like not being clenched in your body, but saying, how can I fully relax and rest and be peaceful? Body-muscle relaxation.

Speaker 1 And it's something that happened to me when I had sleep paralysis maybe for the fourth or fifth time. Instead of living in fear around it,

Speaker 1 I decided to fully relax when it happened. It's supposed to like screaming with nothing coming out.

Speaker 1 I just said, okay, this is happening. It's scary.
Let me relax. And I was almost able to come out of it quicker and not live in the fear of it.

Speaker 1 And I haven't had that experience since I did that the last time, maybe a few years ago.

Speaker 1 I haven't felt sleep paralysis since then.

Speaker 2 How many times have you had it?

Speaker 1 Maybe five or six, maybe that I can remember. Maybe a handful, not like 40 or 50 times, but like a handful of times.

Speaker 1 Maybe it was a little more, a little less, but probably five or six times. And

Speaker 1 the last time I remember not trying to scream or move to wake up, I was just like, I'm going to relax and almost enjoy the moment. Right.
Like ride the wave. Yep.

Speaker 1 And by riding the wave, like I started to be able to like move move my hands and I kind of just gently woke up eventually.

Speaker 1 Knowing that I've always woken up.

Speaker 1 I'm not going to stay stuck like this.

Speaker 1 So it's almost like I trained my prefrontal cortex captain to say,

Speaker 1 let things come back on slowly, then you can take back control when it does, as opposed to overriding something that is

Speaker 1 creating paralysis in you.

Speaker 2 That's a great point. And it kind of makes me think of.

Speaker 2 So the reason why I came up with the fourth step of not trying to move, it's kind of, it's has to do with the fact that

Speaker 2 when you are in a sleep paralysis and experiencing this,

Speaker 2 your motor parts of the brain, there's a strip of tissue here in the brain that's involved in movement.

Speaker 2 Normally, when I'm awake, I move my hand from A to B in space. I send commands from the movement parts of the brain, the motor cortex, down to the brain, stem, spinal cord, and I move.

Speaker 2 Now, during during sleep paralysis, this is, you send many commands to move, but I'm move. But it's not working.
But it's not working because you're paralyzed.

Speaker 2 You have a simultaneous signal saying don't move. And

Speaker 2 that's overriding that movement signal, right? Interesting. It's very interesting.
So you're saying, move, but land move,

Speaker 2 but there's no, but you can't move. Now,

Speaker 2 at the same time, when I'm normally

Speaker 2 When I'm awake and I move and I move my hands around,

Speaker 2 I want to make sure I get this right.

Speaker 2 You have what's called a proprioceptive feedback, meaning simply there's feedback coming back from the skin joint muscles, telling your brain how to build a sense of a baland, how to build a sense of a Lewis.

Speaker 2 That comes about from action, believe it or not, in the skin and muscles sending feedback back to the brain and to that parietal, that multimedia studio I told you about before, and telling you, oh, create a sense of Baland based on the information coming back, right?

Speaker 2 Now, that part of the brain obviously is not

Speaker 2 getting feedback because you are not moving.

Speaker 2 You aren't moving, you can't move, so you're paralyzed. So, there's no way to create a sense of a self.

Speaker 2 In other words, you're sending commands to move, but there's no feedback coming back from a moving body because you're paralyzed.

Speaker 2 In other words, there's a gap there, and that gap the brain is trying to fill in

Speaker 2 hallucinatory movement

Speaker 2 and I always want to make sure this is clear because when I tell this during lectures I you know people sometimes you know can what are you talking about Balanda I'm maybe sure

Speaker 2 The brain hates any incongruencies any gaps in information and whenever there is a gap whenever there any incongruency there it will fill in the blank sort of like a Google auto correction it will sort of you when you put the first words of like SO it will finish soccer, for example.

Speaker 2 The brain does the same thing. If it has a gap,

Speaker 2 a lack of information,

Speaker 2 there's a lack of information, it will fill in the blank. And so that's why we believe that you might see your legs fly up and down and you see your limbs shifted in space.

Speaker 2 And I want to avoid all that. And that's why I tell the people don't try to move because you don't want to have all these mismatching signals and your brain trying to create the story for you.

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Speaker 1 It's so fascinating because as a as someone who

Speaker 1 loves to study these ideas more so not as a researcher or scientist,

Speaker 1 but as a human being who's trying to live my best life and trying to

Speaker 1 lead my life as an example for the people around me to live better, hopefully, and live more harmonious

Speaker 1 and fulfill their dreams and have beautiful relationships and have a healthy lifestyle. That's what I'm coming from.

Speaker 1 And as an athlete who's always looking for the edge and thinking of how can I train my mind and body to perform in the hardest of conditions, in the highest pressure moments, how can I make sure that my mind and my emotions don't get the best of me and I'm more calm instead of chaotic?

Speaker 1 All these different things. I'm always looking for the edge.
And by no means am I perfect at it, but I'm always trying to improve.

Speaker 1 Something you shared just now really is interesting for me where you said the brain hates incongruencies. And there is this,

Speaker 1 there's a world that so many people live in where they build a self-image of self. You've been talking about self-image, a balanced, a Lewis, an identity

Speaker 1 where the image and identity that people build,

Speaker 1 most people is so limiting. around what how they think,

Speaker 1 what they believe, and how they feel.

Speaker 1 And the stories that they tell themselves or the stories they believe that others tell themselves about themselves.

Speaker 1 And when we are, when the, you said the brain hates incongruencies,

Speaker 1 I believe we're all created to do something beautiful. We're all meant to live in alignment of self.

Speaker 1 But when we as human beings say create a limiting self-image and say, I am stupid, I am ugly, I am not smart. I'm not good enough.
I'm not talented. When we build a self-identity and self-image,

Speaker 1 mentally implanting these ideas in our being,

Speaker 1 it limits us. And the brain is incongruent with that.

Speaker 1 Somehow we're believing, we're trying to believe it, but I believe we're all built. to be more beautiful and more empowering and reach a higher self-identity rather than a limited identity.

Speaker 1 So I'm curious as a neuroscientist,

Speaker 1 how can we start to train our self-image and self-identity to be more empowering and reach a higher version of ourselves versus a limited identity and limited self that is out of congruency with ourselves, which keeps us small?

Speaker 1 How can we start to build this? This is a big question, but I'm fascinated based on your research, what you've come up with or what you've seen.

Speaker 2 It's a great question, and

Speaker 2 I want to answer this.

Speaker 2 I'm trying to answer this in a fashion where I

Speaker 2 so I talk a little bit about myself. So

Speaker 2 I came, I'm Kurdish, I told you. I'm originally Kurdish from Iraq, grew up in Copenhagen, and

Speaker 2 my parents were actually refugees. They escaped the war in Iraq.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 my mom, terrible traumas, you know, she would, her grand, her father died in front of her, had a heart attack.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 it was horrible.

Speaker 2 The body, so the way it happened was one day she my granddad just came out in the they had like small rooms. They didn't have a lot of room, so it's just like one big room.
In Iraq. In Iraq.

Speaker 2 He just came one day, he just came out and said, Look,

Speaker 2 called my mom, said, look, go call your mommy. Go call mommy.
And mommy would come in and he said, forgive me for anything I might have done in my life.

Speaker 2 I think I'm checking out.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 so right on the spot, he died from a heart attack. Wow.

Speaker 2 And my mom, 11 years old, loved her, loved her dad. Like her dad was the best.
Okay.

Speaker 2 Her brother, her older brother, rushed into the room, saw her. saw his dad lying dead.

Speaker 2 They had a tumultuous relationship. So he was shocked and traumatized by that.
So he took a glass

Speaker 2 and smashed it into his head

Speaker 2 in utter shock. Now blood was gushing from

Speaker 2 his head. My 11-year-old mother was watching that.

Speaker 2 Looking at my mom, that was shocked too.

Speaker 2 And my grandfather was just lying there. Dead.
Dead. Now, at this point in Iraq, it was like, you know, during COVID, there was like quarantine.
They couldn't go out because of all the wars.

Speaker 2 So often they would tell him the people, don't go out until

Speaker 2 4 or 5 a.m. next day.
So the body was just there.

Speaker 2 So they couldn't take him anywhere. So my mom was a witness to this.
As an 11-year-old.

Speaker 2 As an 11-year-old, growing up without and then grow up without a father in Iraq, seeing her father die like this.

Speaker 2 My father had a similar story.

Speaker 2 His dad also died when he was very, very young.

Speaker 2 He had to do hard labor, very, very, very hard, traumatizing background now both of them um

Speaker 2 came to escaped to copenhagen first went to bulgaria i was born in bulgaria but did they meet in bulgaria or meet in iraq they met in iraq

Speaker 2 and they escaped together they escaped together my actually my dad was called in to um do you know saddam hussein and all the wars and all that he was saddam's army was calling my dad to go fight for him wow he wouldn't he wouldn't he said i'm not going to do that and so he escaped actually that it was good he didn't do that because that group of people that, you know, they were supposed to go through,

Speaker 2 they all died from a, from a attack, from an air attack, and they all died on a bridge. So he was supposed to be in that, among those, that group.
Came to Bulgaria. I was born, came to Copenhagen.

Speaker 2 Obviously, we had to start all over in a get-alike area. That's when I, where I grew up in a very tough, hard neighborhood, refugee camp initially.
Then in the

Speaker 2 Seeing the worst things, my best friend was shot at, stabbed 13 times my neighbor was shot in the head all these kind of things now i do research at harvard and lecture to

Speaker 2 but i came from the the worst of worst like i really literally came from the worst now

Speaker 2 i think that

Speaker 2 so you can obviously you can overcome that and a lot of people do so i'm not the only one it's not like i'm special but

Speaker 2 We do have some what's and now I'm gonna sort of weave in the science here.

Speaker 2 We do have something called epigenetics and that's that's if you had trauma or your parents even had trauma, that can affect you down the line.

Speaker 1 In your genetics.

Speaker 2 In your genetics. So let me give you an example.

Speaker 1 In your nervous system.

Speaker 2 In your nervous system. So I give, so, so, for example, there was these ladies who witnessed, they were pregnant and they witnessed 9-11.

Speaker 2 Obviously, some of them developed PTSD trauma from witnessing and seeing the attack. Horrible.

Speaker 1 You pass that down to your children.

Speaker 2 You pass that down to your children. So the children that were born and obviously didn't witness

Speaker 2 9-11,

Speaker 2 they had cortisol changes similar to the mother signaling deep trauma from the experience, right? You had

Speaker 2 cortisol systems damaged

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 out of balance. One example.
Another example, you may know this experiment too.

Speaker 2 Rats that are exposed to a certain smell, for example,

Speaker 2 and then you give them an electric shock, their kids, their babies, will fear that a smell, even though they haven't had that electric shock.

Speaker 1 So we know that. They smell it,

Speaker 2 they're going to be agitated and reactive. And it turns out, even their children,

Speaker 1 interesting, because you pass that through your epigenetics. Epigenetics.

Speaker 2 So inside the gene, there are certain methyl groups and atoms that sits on genes and turns genes on and off.

Speaker 2 And so, depending on our trauma or our parents' and our grandparents' trauma, that can be passed on. And so

Speaker 2 you have all this, right?

Speaker 2 beyond this

Speaker 2 the brain of a child right it's the synapses in a baby's brain there's about 50 more synapses synapses are simply the connections between neurons you want to have a lot of these synapses and then you want to be able to shape your brain as well as possible So a baby's brain is extremely plastic.

Speaker 2 It can change in various ways.

Speaker 2 And if you have a lot of trauma in your childhood, if you are raised in a core neighborhood and you have like, you know, that can affect how the brain of a child then develops limiting your potential but you know as a having a less you know less affected brain growing up now i was lucky my mom and dad were very warm they took good care of me so even though it's like i have a buffer so even though i was in that refugee camp my mom was always hugging me playing with me i was

Speaker 2 very loving parents so it kind of

Speaker 2 you still have the the trauma in your epigenetics yeah it's kind of a mix right from the whole trauma from their experiences experiences.

Speaker 1 Kind of like sleep paralysis.

Speaker 2 Kind of like sleep.

Speaker 1 The captain tried to control, but you had the other guy parallel the trauma

Speaker 1 paralysis. You're like, I feel love, but I'm scared.

Speaker 2 It was a mix of that, right? Interesting. Yeah, so I had that.
So, but

Speaker 2 there was the epigenetics,

Speaker 2 but because of the love, and you know this from rats, by the way, rats who lick their babies more,

Speaker 2 they will be more, they will be more resilient towards stress later in life. Interesting.
So by having those

Speaker 2 more love and affection. Love and affection, caring for the child and all that.
So

Speaker 2 I was liking that way. The brain is extremely malleable and plastic.
It can change shape

Speaker 2 based on these epigenetic commands.

Speaker 1 And so it's almost like everyone has experienced some type of epigenetic trauma through their parents. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, we all have been passed down some type of genetic trauma through generational trauma.

Speaker 2 Right, right.

Speaker 1 Like no one had three generations of perfect parents that were like healed and calm and relaxed and loving. There was trauma somewhere that's been passed down through generations.

Speaker 2 Through generations, yeah.

Speaker 1 And it's not our fault, but it's our responsibility to start to notice it and create awareness and say, how can I be the one to break the generational trauma if we choose to live a better life? Right.

Speaker 1 If we want that.

Speaker 1 It's not our fault,

Speaker 1 but it is our responsibility.

Speaker 2 It's our responsibility

Speaker 2 it's horrible exactly and it's hard hard work and so and it brings me really to what my research in recent years has been focused on which is neuroplasticity and the fact that the brain can change the brain is extremely malleable you know that we thought like 20 years ago we thought well you're born with certain brain and that's it it can change maybe in childhood so we know that you know the baby's brain is more is more is more malleable is more plastic meaning it can change shape more you can grow more synaptic connections.

Speaker 2 But we now know that until you die, the brain can

Speaker 2 change. If you had a stroke and you're left complete, so the brain,

Speaker 2 everything on the left side commands the right, and everything on the right commands the left side, for example. So if you have a stroke to the left hemisphere, your entire side can be paralyzed.

Speaker 2 But we know now by with extreme

Speaker 2 training and

Speaker 2 rehabilitation, you can actually do a lot of progress, much more than we thought thought was even possible a few years ago. Point of all this,

Speaker 2 knowing the principles that can make you brain change is vital. Knowing what's involved, it can help you reach your potential.
So, for example, there's a chemical in the brain called acetylcholine.

Speaker 2 Acetylcholin, it's sort of the

Speaker 2 attention

Speaker 2 part of attention neurochemical. It comes about in a part of the brain called the Lucas

Speaker 2 what's it I forgot the name escaped me right now.

Speaker 2 It's in sort of in the middle part of the brain it produces these neurons that create this acetylcholine and it is it's and it's attentional so whenever you focus on anything acetylcholine turns on and you need that for neuroplasticity.

Speaker 2 By the way, if you just go around in Hollywood and greet people and just you know, you won't have a lot of neuroplasticity. Why? Because you need acetylcholine.

Speaker 2 you need you need to be hyper focused in order to have neuroplasticity so this is a key factor by the way that's why whenever you break a routine whenever you do something novel whenever you sort of for example me coming to this area right here where you are it's kind of i haven't really been here before it's novel so i have actually a lot of neuroplasticity my brain is changing a lot and it's becoming more malleable because everything is novel i'm paying attention to figure out where am i going i don't know the directions and this exactly what do i get yeah and it came about because because the brain says, look,

Speaker 2 whenever I encounter novel thing, novel things, I better write it down because it's important for my survival.

Speaker 2 That's why you have a lot of neuroplasticity when you travel because your brain needs to know the new routes and everything. So

Speaker 2 attention is important for neuroplasticity. So if you want to have a more plastic brain, a more malleable brain, do new things, challenge yourself by doing

Speaker 2 novel things, and that will trigger the nucleus basalis. That's the part of the brain image, nucleus basalis system, and then you will have a lot of plasticity.
So that's a key factor. Okay.

Speaker 1 Just a side note. You don't have kids, right? No.

Speaker 1 From all the research you've done as a neuroscientist studying the brain, dreams, neuroplasticity,

Speaker 1 if you could give

Speaker 1 parents three pieces of advice

Speaker 1 when they have kids,

Speaker 1 from the moment they come out of the womb for the first few years yeah what are three things you would say whether it be from a neuroscience standpoint or just a practical personal standpoint yeah that if parents did these three things they would give their kids a much better chance at a better life later on

Speaker 2 deep question I would say

Speaker 2 first of all give them affection hugging, caring, taking sort of

Speaker 2 being physical with children. We know that when you touch,

Speaker 2 just by merely touching, you have a lot of things like oxytocin and a lot of and a lot of these neuro endorphins we call them and and neuropeptides are involved in neuroplasticity as well.

Speaker 2 It's very, very good to have a lot of that. So being affectionate around your children, hugging them, kissing them, it's very important.

Speaker 2 A baby's brain, we said, has about 50% more synapsis.

Speaker 2 But what happens, though, in a baby's brain is there's something I'll call a pruning process, meaning that the brain of a child is hyper-connected. So everything is almost connected.

Speaker 2 Everything is flirting with everything. There's connections everywhere.
And so as time passes, there's a gene that says, look, we don't need all these connections. I'm only going to take

Speaker 2 what the brain is actually using. So it's kind of a use it or lose it brain.

Speaker 2 So whatever I'm not using, whatever skill I'm not using it will just shave it away so you want to definitely optimize for using the brain in various ways so this so you kind of don't just shave off all the good connections so stimulate stimulate stimulate this is what you want to do so stimulating

Speaker 2 a baby's brain

Speaker 2 hyper connected in this way so you want to stimulate them

Speaker 1 affection we said i'm assuming not stimulate through like screens and ipads and cell phones, but other ways, right?

Speaker 2 In other words,

Speaker 2 that's a great, that's a good idea.

Speaker 1 You can stimulate with an iPad also.

Speaker 2 You can stimulate, that's the wrong kind of stimulation, exactly. That can lead to addiction and too much dopamine in the brain and too much of

Speaker 2 addictive cycles. You don't want that.

Speaker 1 So what type of stimulation should babies be having?

Speaker 2 Intellectuals. It could be emotional stimulation.
It could be teaching them how to interact with other people. So for example,

Speaker 2 nowadays people are becoming less good at human interaction. We're becoming like robots.
You know, we don't know how to read facial expressions, emotional cues. What is so?

Speaker 2 We actually have neurons in the brain called mirror neurons, or some people call them perceptual action neurons. They're involved in, you know, what is Lewis thinking of right now? What is his agenda?

Speaker 2 What is he up to? I can sort of do mind reading. These are the medial part of the prefrontal lobe.

Speaker 2 And these neurons can be titillated and activated, and the circuits can become strengthened by us engaging with other people and learning. Like during the COVID era,

Speaker 2 I'm pretty isolated generally as a scientist. I don't do enough, I don't do enough social interactions, but especially during COVID, when I came out of COVID, I couldn't interact with people.

Speaker 2 I was just like, how do I do it? How do I, you know, I was just completely handicapped. like a Sheldon from Big Bang Theory kind of

Speaker 2 scenario. You can train these circuits and the more you use them, the better

Speaker 2 you become.

Speaker 2 Gotcha. Okay.
Stimulate. Yeah.
So you stimulate in that way.

Speaker 1 What would be the third?

Speaker 2 Physical, I would say physical exercise. So we know that when you do physical exercise, when you go out and do sports, when you

Speaker 2 when especially cardiovascular type exercise, obviously you don't want to take your kid to the gym and start lifting weight, but we know generally cardiovascular exercise is the type of exercise that can lead to the growth of or certain proteins called neurotrophic factors like bdnf gdnf just fancy names for fertilizers in the brain that will cause the brain to create more synapses so generally not only for kids but for all of us doing more of

Speaker 2 play and excess like exercise running for kid take your kid to the to the to the um playground and let them run around they always they obviously do this a lot if you just allow them to instead of sitting on the ipad yeah

Speaker 2 i would i would definitely encourage that.

Speaker 2 Teach them things, you know, take them to the zoo and let them

Speaker 2 show them different animals. What is this animal?

Speaker 2 Stimulate their brains intellectually. Make them curious and passionate too.

Speaker 2 It's not only the brain, it's also just, it is the brain, but it's also thinking about like, how can I make, how can I convey passion to my kids?

Speaker 2 Like, so for me, the way I became passionate about the brain was the fact that I had mentors that

Speaker 2 were extremely passionate about the brain and fascinated about the brain. And so that

Speaker 2 fascination and passion, you know, was passed down to me. So you do that with your kids.

Speaker 2 You know, you show them interesting things, take them to the museums and take them to the zoo and all these kind of things. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 Convey passion. I like that.

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Speaker 2 a lot of people

Speaker 1 are curious about this idea of lucid dreaming

Speaker 1 can you explain what lucid dreaming is what causes it and is it something we can control very interesting

Speaker 2 so lucid dreaming is the state where

Speaker 2 so

Speaker 2 you aren't, you have, and I may just wanna maybe take you to this because there's a whole, there's a whole line of, so when you start, when you initially sleep, you enter sleep, you are in stages one and two.

Speaker 2 And during this stage of sleep,

Speaker 2 when you are, the brain waves are sort of slow and big and your things are very

Speaker 2 just kind of coordinated and you have these big waves. You enter REM sleep, you have these wakefulness waves.
These call beta waves go like this. You have this, these quick waves.

Speaker 2 And this is characterized, this is the same kind of waves you have when you're wakeful. So it's the kind of wakefulness waves as well.

Speaker 2 So the brain, when you are in REM sleep and you're having dreams, the brain looks very much like a person who's wakeful. In fact, if I was to eavesdrop

Speaker 2 on the activity of neurons during somebody who's in REM sleep and somebody who's awake, the brain would look indistinguishable. Their brains look very much alike.

Speaker 2 Now, during REM sleep you have vivid and lifelike dreams as we said, but occasionally what can happen during dreams is that

Speaker 2 the CEO, your captain of the ship, can become prematurely activated inside the dream. In a lucid dream.

Speaker 2 Inside the dream. And that makes it become lucid.

Speaker 2 Now

Speaker 2 if you're not fully awakened from that, this is, I want to say, so the difference between between sleep paralysis is that it's become so much awake that it kind of wakes you up.

Speaker 2 That's when it becomes sleep paralysis, which is another borderland state between wakefulness and dreams. And

Speaker 2 wakefulness and REM. Doing lucid dreaming, you simply have this CEO becoming partially awake.

Speaker 1 But you're still asleep. But you're still asleep.
So that's when you are. It's like the opposite almost of paralysis, almost, right?

Speaker 2 Almost opposite, exactly. Interesting.
Now, so when you have this,

Speaker 2 the CEO of the brain, because it's active

Speaker 2 during the REM and the dream world, that's when you start becoming aware of yourself.

Speaker 1 In the part. But you're still asleep, but you're aware that you're asleep.

Speaker 2 This is important because, Louis,

Speaker 2 when you are dreaming in REM sleep,

Speaker 2 this is this part of the brain. It's called the

Speaker 2 dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, a mouthful. These are the regions out here on the sides of the the captain and the CEO.

Speaker 2 This part of the brain is involved in things like knowing that I'm aware of myself. A sense of a logic, a sense of a serial thinking, of a sense of a me, Balan, being in the studio.

Speaker 2 There's a wall, there's all these things.

Speaker 1 Those are activated when you're awake, right?

Speaker 2 Those are activated when I'm awake. They're turned down.

Speaker 1 When you're asleep.

Speaker 2 When I'm dreaming. But then they become partially active for

Speaker 2 some reason. And that's when you have lucid dreaming.
Interesting. That's when you have lucid dreaming.
And we actually know the more more it activates, the more this part of the brain. Wake up.

Speaker 2 Absolutely,

Speaker 2 if it's fully activated, you start waking up. But the more it activates, even without waking you up, the more lucid you become.

Speaker 2 So some lucid dreams, you merely are aware of yourself dreaming. This is the sort of

Speaker 2 not the highest level.

Speaker 2 But then you have certain lucid dreams where you can fully control the scenarios. Those are the crazy ones where you...

Speaker 1 Like, I'm flying around and I can tell myself where to go.

Speaker 1 Exactly.

Speaker 2 These are the most extreme examples. But that's when the prefrontal cortex is very activated.

Speaker 2 And so that's what lucid dreams are about. So about 50% of people will have had one of these experiences.
You become aware of your surroundings. Typically,

Speaker 2 it can emerge if you see some crazy person that you think, oh my gosh, Shakespeare is in my dream. What is Shakespeare doing? I'm not supposed to meet Shakespeare right now.

Speaker 2 And then that can tilt you to become lucid.

Speaker 2 So those are the triggers of lucid dreaming.

Speaker 2 They are very vivid in the sense that they are more vivid than a normal dream. Your normal dream is already very vivid and lifelike and all that, but this is even more crisp.
So you have that as well.

Speaker 2 People often engage in, as you can imagine, erotic fantasies and sexual fantasies and flying is very common.

Speaker 2 So this is what lucid dreaming is about. Do you have you had any lucid dreams?

Speaker 1 Maybe a few where I'm like more aware of it, but not something that happens frequently.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 But something I am curious about also is

Speaker 1 my wife Martha has premonitory dreams. And I don't know if you've studied this at all or if you're, have you ever had any.
Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 But she'll have dreams where she'll tell me, like she has a dream book where she writes down her dreams. And some of them are just.
I guess meaningless.

Speaker 1 Maybe there's some meaning to them, but they're just like, okay, I had this weird dream. I'm flying or this or whatever.

Speaker 1 But then she'll have a dream where she'll say, it doesn't happen often, but she goes, there was a different quality to the dream.

Speaker 1 And it's not lucid dreaming and it's not just a normal dream and it's not a nightmare. She calls it promonitary dreams.
And

Speaker 1 whenever she has this, she wakes up, she writes it down. It is so vivid, but it's almost, this may sound weird, but it's almost a signal to what's going to happen in the future.

Speaker 1 And for whatever reason, every dream she's showed me in the past that she's written down of this quality comes true.

Speaker 1 And who knows if it's her mind that's influencing her to go manifest these things, but some of them are predictions of what's happening in the world.

Speaker 1 And it's almost like she's like, there's a spiritual quality to it that's hard to express.

Speaker 1 There's a light being quality to it that she knows when it's happening.

Speaker 1 And it's almost like a promonatory predictive dream. And I don't know if you've studied that or if that's a phenomenon or if there's science behind that, but I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 Is that lucid dreaming? Is that promonatory dream? Is that some spiritual intuitive connection? What is this?

Speaker 2 Exactly. Exactly.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 this is like.

Speaker 2 Have you heard of this? 100%. I hear it all the time.
I hear it from students. When I lecture, I hear it for myself.

Speaker 2 I have these dreams myself like promonatory dreams promotory premonitions yeah so they're common all around the world and they have been in cultures have talked about this throughout history so people in various places i mean prophecies and prophetic dreams and and joseph in the bible you know the story and quran he saw his moon a star and the moon was bowing and all that and so this have been people have reported this throughout history Now, what are these?

Speaker 2 Are these the brain? Is it what's going on?

Speaker 1 Spiritual connection.

Speaker 2 Spiritual connection. Now, I tackle this because this gets into some of the craziness where I need to be careful between science and spirituality, but I'm going to answer this in this way.

Speaker 2 I'll say that

Speaker 2 I personally

Speaker 2 have these as well, and I don't talk about it.

Speaker 1 Do they come true?

Speaker 2 Like these. I feel like they come true.
I feel like I have a dream of certain things that might happen.

Speaker 2 And they sometimes come true.

Speaker 2 Some scientists will say it's just, you know,

Speaker 2 you're just biased.

Speaker 2 You

Speaker 2 selectively remember certain things from the dream and you think like, you know, that then comes true and all that.

Speaker 2 But look, for me, subjectively, it feels very real. And who can deny you of your subjective experience? People have had this.

Speaker 2 All over the world, people have this. How can you deny them their subjective truth?

Speaker 2 And this is what I always emphasize, the fact that you can't deny, you can't use science as a way of just you know denying people what seems subjectively real to them a real thing i mean

Speaker 2 there's medical miracles all the time where people are like i can't explain how this cancer went away the science can't prove this but it happens right so i will say so i'll say this we have no scientific evidence obviously of

Speaker 2 being able to predict the future the full stop it's goes beyond the realm of science anything supernatural goes or spiritual goes out to, but it doesn't mean it's not true.

Speaker 1 And in quantum physics, you know, an atom can be in two places at the same time, I think, right? So it's like, how can it be in two different places at the same time? Yes.

Speaker 1 In two different moments at the same time

Speaker 2 of time.

Speaker 1 So it's like, how are we able to do this?

Speaker 2 Look, I've been fortunate to work with and know some of the greatest dream researchers

Speaker 2 that we know. And they will tell you what's going on in the brain.
I will tell you, this is my area of focus, and we know these parts of the brain turn on, these turn off, these neurochemicals

Speaker 2 are hyperactivated, these are not.

Speaker 2 But that doesn't mean that

Speaker 2 a spiritual world is not true and that you cannot have premonitions of the future. It's simply not, we just don't use it as, we don't use it in science, yes.

Speaker 2 It's not in the science books, it's not in my scientific articles or anything that I write or my books or anything. There is nothing about

Speaker 2 that kind of thing there.

Speaker 1 But people still experience it.

Speaker 2 And I experience it. And I believe it.
So what? My scientific colleagues can believe whatever they want.

Speaker 2 As long as you're truthful to the science, it doesn't matter. But I'll tell you this: I do feel like I do feel these, and I do believe in these things.

Speaker 2 And there's nothing, I'll tell you, there's nothing in science that can negate the fact that you can have these kinds of dreams. Wow.
I just don't count on them for like winning the lottery or

Speaker 2 yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Now,

Speaker 1 do dreams have meaning? And can our environment and our external world influence the quality of our dreams? Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 So definitely. So

Speaker 2 dreams do tend to have,

Speaker 2 they seem to have some meaning. And

Speaker 2 let me answer the meaning question second.

Speaker 2 can we are there influences from the outside world this is the let's answer this first so first of all having a lucid dreaming, having a lucid dream, for example, or just having any dream with any person you want to meet in your dream, you can do dream incubation, meaning you think about it during the day.

Speaker 1 So I've had that before. Influence the dream of a having influence.

Speaker 2 So exactly. So you go to bed.

Speaker 2 I once wanted to fly like Peter Pan. So I was like, I was a kid, you know, Balan fly.
Balan be Peter Pan fly, Balan fly. And I ended up flying

Speaker 2 at night. So you can incubate, or I want to meet this person, or I want to become lucid.
So we know we can do this.

Speaker 1 Yeah, the more you put your attention on something during a day, the greater chances you're going to influence it at night.

Speaker 2 100%. You're biasing the circuitry.
So,

Speaker 2 this is one point. Second, when you are inside the dream, then,

Speaker 2 and you are, let's say, you are in a cold room, and you're dreaming, first of all, that you are, let's say, you were dreaming that

Speaker 2 just a regular dream, first of all. It can be anything.
You're walking about in Glendale, for example. You're walking about there.
And then in Glendale, suddenly you feel like it's cold.

Speaker 2 Well, that could just be that the room in the place you're sleeping,

Speaker 2 the window is open and you're feeling cold. So things can

Speaker 2 spill over into the dream. Or if there's like a smoke from the neighbors barbecuing, for example, that can also come into the experience.

Speaker 2 And you feel like maybe there's a fire in Glendale and the house is on fire. So we know this.

Speaker 2 This is a well-known phenomenon that things from the outside world can influence the actual dreaming state. So we know that.

Speaker 2 Then

Speaker 2 what's the meaning? How does the brain create meaning out of dreams? It's

Speaker 2 a very deep one because

Speaker 2 first of all, you have some of the creative networks in the brain that has to do with creativity

Speaker 2 becoming hyperactivated. It's called a default mode network and whatnot, but it's just a creativity part of the brain.
They're also active when I'm daydreaming during the day.

Speaker 2 It's kind of, things are very spacey and all that. We said no adrenaline of the part of the brain that's involved in focus attention shuts down during dreams.

Speaker 2 So things are even more spacey and bizarre and exploratory. So you have that.

Speaker 2 We said that during the dream state, and I'm coming to the punchline, during the dream state, you have parts of the brain involved in a sense of balance. It's called the

Speaker 2 vestibular sense system. It's sort of you have it on both sides of the brain

Speaker 2 next to the ears.

Speaker 2 It's involved in sense of balance that part of the brain also becomes hyperactive and that's why you feel like at one moment you're here then on you're on a spaceship and things are just floating and and and and crazy that you have emotional part of the brain is 30 more active you know that the ceo is down so things are illogical so you have that

Speaker 2 Hippocampus memory part of the brain is hyperactive, so you remember all the craziness.

Speaker 2 Now this biases your brain, this state of all these centers being active and this being deactivated, it just puts your brain in a state to think in a certain way.

Speaker 2 And that will influence the narrative. You cannot avoid having that influence.

Speaker 2 This is actual theory about how dreams are based on the state of the brain and

Speaker 2 you'll have dreams in this way. So that's the meaning.
The meaning is

Speaker 2 The brain is trying to make sense of all these centers being active at the same time, the memory part of the brain influencing things,

Speaker 2 the environment, your hormonal state from the few last few weeks, all this will bias what you're dreaming and make you dream about certain things.

Speaker 2 But at the same time, it could still be, and this is when we're going to do the spirituality again, it could still be some spiritual influences as well.

Speaker 2 So you don't want to close that gate completely, but I'm saying there's a brain

Speaker 2 baseline state that makes you dream in a certain way and be more inclined to

Speaker 2 have certain visions and see certain things

Speaker 2 but at the same time there's so many other things that could be going on as well so that that's that's that's that's the sort of the the meaning part of of what dreaming is is is all about you know the yeah wow

Speaker 1 and why do some people not remember their dreams where others remember everything

Speaker 2 It's a good question. So one of the ways you can make yourself remember dreams more is by having a big glass of water.
So before you go to bed.

Speaker 1 Isn't that going to to make you wake up in the middle of the night because you have to pee it out.

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 1 Maybe not right before, but a little bit. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 That's exactly the point.

Speaker 2 When you're having a big glass of water, you will have more fragmented sleep.

Speaker 2 So, your sleep will be more choppy, and then you just wake up and you're more likely to have, you remember your dreams more because you wake up during the REM stage of sleep and you have more chance of remembering your dreams.

Speaker 2 Remember, so the way the dreams work is that

Speaker 2 during the entire night, during all the stages of sleep, you dream during the REM stage, and you have like four cycles of complete

Speaker 2 where you go through different stages, and where REM is sort of about

Speaker 2 25% of this time. So the more you go in and out of REM, the better chances you have

Speaker 2 of remembering your dreams overall. Now, why certain people

Speaker 2 remember their dreams more, I think... So creative people tend to remember their dreams more.
Perhaps they are

Speaker 2 activating more of their creative networks during the day as well. So they're just more in sync and in tune with their creative minds.

Speaker 2 So those I would say are, and so some people just don't remember their dreams.

Speaker 2 They may not be as,

Speaker 2 I want to say creative. They could be just be

Speaker 1 as much or center.

Speaker 2 Those centers, exactly.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah.
What is

Speaker 1 one thing you wish everyone knew about their brain, their their brain health, to live a better life based on your neuroscience research?

Speaker 2 Okay, that's, I would say

Speaker 2 avoiding stress.

Speaker 2 Stress and cortisol. Obviously, you need cortisol.
Cortisol is important, but too much cortisol can

Speaker 2 inhibit some of these growth fertilizing factors. We call it BDNF and GDNF, GDNF,

Speaker 2 these things that the brain uses to grow new synapses and connections.

Speaker 2 Stress directly dampens that. So having a lot of cortisol, too much cortisol to the point that you can't sleep well, that will directly make your

Speaker 2 brain less plastic.

Speaker 2 Improving sleep,

Speaker 2 understanding that

Speaker 2 sleep obviously is a phenomenon where you have all these crazy dreams, lucid dreams, sleep paralysis,

Speaker 2 but you also have

Speaker 2 deep sleep. Deep sleep is the stage before REM that's involved in things like

Speaker 2 memory storage,

Speaker 2 generate sort of replenishing of the cardiovascular system, the audio, the immune system, the

Speaker 2 blood pressure regulation, glucose, all this happened during deep sleep, the stage before REM,

Speaker 2 skin rejuvenation, hair, you want to be pretty for a photo shoot or something, you know, you want to, this is all in deep sleep.

Speaker 2 So you don't want to neglect deep sleep and you don't want to neglect sleep overall. So

Speaker 2 having that is crucial,

Speaker 2 meaning taking care of your sleep, having good sleep routines, good sleep habits, sleeping at the same time each day and waking up at the same time is a good way to keep your circadian clock in the brain and the hypothalamus part of the brain, a little region that's involved in you have a biological clock there involved in setting when you feel awake and when you feel asleep so having good sleep routine and habits

Speaker 2 reducing stress exercising regularly is crucial

Speaker 2 cardiovascular especially but also strength it's good for your brain

Speaker 2 social connections

Speaker 2 getting out away from those laptops and those ipads going out and meeting people,

Speaker 2 connecting with your family, your parents, gratitude to your parents, what they've done for you, all their sacrifices, loving them deeply.

Speaker 2 That kind of gets all the endorphins and the oxytocin and basopressin, all the love hormones to make your brain and nervous system more healthier, optimized.

Speaker 2 Avoid loneliness. I mean, it's kind of goes with the the social interaction, but just loneliness is horrible, man.

Speaker 2 We didn't come about to be alone. And a lot of us think our AIs and all that are humans.
They're not humans. And go out and connect with people.

Speaker 1 Here's a question for you.

Speaker 1 How bad is

Speaker 1 social media use

Speaker 1 for people's brains?

Speaker 1 Obviously, there's some benefit. for social media to get a message out and there's entertainment.

Speaker 1 But when it's overused,

Speaker 1 what is it doing to our brains and our brain health as a neuroscientist?

Speaker 2 It does a lot. I mean, first of all,

Speaker 2 all these Ferraris and all these mansions you're seeing, I mean, 90% are not real. I mean, you shouldn't feel bad about yourself wherever you are in life.

Speaker 2 If you don't like life, people will portray a life for you that's not real.

Speaker 2 So,

Speaker 2 a lot of anxiety and depression. People feel they're not enough.
They don't feel complete.

Speaker 2 They feel like

Speaker 2 the sense of gratitude, which is important for just brain health and nervous system health and mental health, kind of goes out the window when you just kind of completely engage in this completely irrational social comparison with people that You just feel like everybody owns a Ferrari and you don't.

Speaker 2 And so therefore you are not good enough. Forget all that.
There's so much more to life. Go out and touch the grass, get some fresh air, you know.
And so

Speaker 2 that's a huge part of it.

Speaker 2 Second, I would say

Speaker 2 these

Speaker 2 social media platforms were intentionally designed to be very addictive, creating behavioral addictions, making you just crave likes and

Speaker 2 crave social attention.

Speaker 2 Nothing wrong with that.

Speaker 2 You know, having, you know, using that for social connection, but you can become addicted and just feel like that's the only thing you want to do. And the addicted brain, it's a brain that

Speaker 2 gets dopamine. Addiction basically in a nutshell is when you get dopamine from one source only.
And when you're not having that source,

Speaker 2 The amygdala, the fear part of the brain and the emotional part of the brain are screaming for more of that drug. And then the more of that drug you have,

Speaker 2 the more you need in order to get fulfillment and get the addictive cravings off. And so I would say addiction is another part of it.

Speaker 2 So those are the main two things, the social comparison and the addictive aspects. It's not real.
I mean, so much of it is not real.

Speaker 2 People are forgetting what life is all about. And I think

Speaker 2 that's the problem with social media. It can be dangerous.

Speaker 2 And some people are just, you know, there's actually a genetic component to addiction, too. So some people are just more likely to become addicted to drugs.

Speaker 2 So you have, actually, knowing where you fall on that scale

Speaker 2 is

Speaker 2 great. Like

Speaker 2 my.

Speaker 1 Is there a test you can take to see how addictive you are?

Speaker 2 It's no, but I'll tell you this. So a study that was done by

Speaker 2 mentors when I was at Cambridge, they did early studies when they would have people look at their genetics and then they would see who would become and then measure their genetics and look at their lives 20, 30 years later, or something.

Speaker 2 It's a very long, long study. They found that certain people were just more likely based on the

Speaker 2 genes to become drug addicts and addicted to stuff. So there's a genetic predisposition.

Speaker 2 It has to do with part of the brain calls, I don't want to, all these names, but it's sort of nucleus accumbens and the dopamine parts of the brain. If you have

Speaker 2 certain receptors more than other receptors,

Speaker 2 you are genetically predisposed to become more addictive. Now, I can tell you this, personally, I have that addictive personality.

Speaker 2 So if I use social media a little bit, I suddenly find myself clicking and all of it. Yeah, you're all in.
I can't. So I know from my own self that I have to be careful.
So I think it's,

Speaker 2 although there might, you know, you can do certain personality tests or see a shrink.

Speaker 2 You kind of know if you have that. Are you the guy that just takes, you know, a cookie and then you can't stop?

Speaker 1 Like, I'm all in or I'm all out. That's why I try to be all out of the bad stuff and all in on the good stuff.
That's me, right?

Speaker 2 That's me too. So it's like

Speaker 1 my crutch is sugar, right?

Speaker 2 It's like,

Speaker 1 I can't just do once in a while. It's like once in a while becomes, all right, this is all day today.
Now this is like a weekend. Now this is like a month.
Right. And then I either need to be all out

Speaker 2 or I'm all in.

Speaker 1 Exactly. And it's, and that's just kind of how I learned to manage my life.
Right, right.

Speaker 1 And maybe once in a while I can do it to like kind of manage it, but it's really, I have to put my attention on the healthy habit of eliminating certain things.

Speaker 1 Or it's just hard to manage balance with certain things that are more addictive for me.

Speaker 1 And I'm glad that I've never gotten into alcohol or drugs or smoking because I'm sure I would have more of an addictive personality with that.

Speaker 1 So I've just been zero for all of that, never been drunk or high. And so for me, it's like, you know.
just trying to know where I'm at and live in accordance to that.

Speaker 2 So it seems like you follow in that genetic disposition for sure for sure. Yeah.
Probably.

Speaker 1 I mean, I've been doing this show for every week for 12 years. I have an addictive behavior to doing something good

Speaker 1 towards this. So I try to put my energy into the good things as opposed to the negative things.

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Speaker 1 I've got a couple final questions for you. This has been fascinating.
I appreciate it. Of course.

Speaker 1 I'm curious why did you decide to pursue the field of neuroscience was it because you were having sleep paralysis or was it for some other reason

Speaker 2 so I think for me it was

Speaker 2 my sleep paralysis experience definitely triggered my my quest for wanting to understand the brain and how it we can certainly see ghosts in our bedrooms what's going on And that really took me on the journey to wanting to understand things and get out of

Speaker 2 my little bedroom there

Speaker 2 in the ghetto and

Speaker 2 in the poverty-stricken neighborhood and go out there. And I study the brain and traveling to various countries.
I went to Egypt initially and then came to the US and went to England and all that.

Speaker 2 So my own sleep paralysis definitely affected me, but also wanting to give back. My parents were so good to me.
They sacrificed so much. for for for take wanting to meet for me to have a good life.

Speaker 2 I saw my dad work in a pizza shop an entire life and have no college education, just kind of working away in the pizza shop.

Speaker 2 And I wanted to give back. I saw them.
And so I needed to work hard.

Speaker 2 And so that was what really pushed me. A sense of purpose, wanting to give my parents a good life, but at the same time,

Speaker 2 being utterly fascinated about the brain.

Speaker 2 So those were the two

Speaker 2 things that

Speaker 1 you're doing good work, man.

Speaker 1 I want to acknowledge you, Blan, for doing the research, sharing the research, and trying to educate so many people on a complicated thing, which is the brain, dreams, neuroscience.

Speaker 1 Like it's hard to understand these things, let alone understand day-to-day life. So I acknowledge you for

Speaker 1 going through the, you know, the challenges and the pain you've gone through to want to say, how do I find solutions to this pain?

Speaker 1 to serve others. And you've been doing a great job with it.

Speaker 1 You also have a great course out on Peterson Academy, Jordan Peterson's online academy.

Speaker 1 And people can go to PetersonAcademy.com and check out Intro to Neuroscience. You've got a course there that teaches more about neuroscience, dreams, understanding this deeper.

Speaker 1 So if people want to go there, we'll have that linked up as well, PetersonAcademy.com, go to the courses section. You can see Balan's course there.
You're also on social media, Baland Jalal,

Speaker 1 Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, all these different places where you're sharing more content, where people can follow you there. How else can we support or follow you? Do you have a website as well?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I have a website, Belangela.com. It's not

Speaker 2 very active on it, but there's some.

Speaker 1 Social media is your spot.

Speaker 2 I would say so, yeah. Okay, cool.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 Awesome, man. Well, there's a lot of great content online that you're sharing.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 I've got one final question before we got to wrap things up.

Speaker 1 You've shared a lot of great kind of truths already and insights. And I'm going to be a dad here in the next few months.

Speaker 1 So that's why I was asking you about like what should we be teaching our kids as a neuroscientist? But I'm curious, final question for you. What's your definition of greatness?

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 that's a deep one.

Speaker 2 I'd say definition of greatness is

Speaker 2 kind of what you're doing, right?

Speaker 2 It's showing up week after week, right?

Speaker 2 And that's why I have to acknowledge you as well, right?

Speaker 2 You come up. you know, week after week doing these great shows, and I've enjoyed watching your show over the years.

Speaker 2 very insightful and and that's what greatness is about it's it's excellence it's putting in in in in your heart and brain into to all that you're doing and

Speaker 2 and following your heart and passion not being afraid of of of being who you are authentically which you're you're you're a master at and and and and

Speaker 2 you know not closing yourself up to the world and oh having an open heart and and so i think that's that's what greatness is about you know being truly truly yourself.

Speaker 2 So I'd say that that's greatness.

Speaker 1 Hold on. Thanks so much for being here.
Thank you, brother. Appreciate it, man.
Appreciate it, man.

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Speaker 1 I really think this is going to help you transform your relationship with money this moment moving forward. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness.

Speaker 1 Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links.

Speaker 1 And if you want weekly, exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple podcasts.

Speaker 1 Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review.

Speaker 1 I really love hearing feedback from you, and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward.

Speaker 1 And I want to remind you: if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something

Speaker 1 great.

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