Rick Rubin: The Spiritual Secret to Limitless Creativity

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Speaker 2 Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness. Very excited about our guest.
We have the inspiring Rick Rubin in the house. Good to see you, sir, and thank you for being here.
You have

Speaker 2 an incredible journey, incredible story, and you've done some amazing things. You're a nine-time Gran Amy-winning producer, named one out of Time Magazine's 100 Most Influential People in the World.

Speaker 2 You've got a number one Yorktime best-selling book, which has just taken over the world in a powerful way. And I've got so many questions I want to ask you about this.

Speaker 2 But you've also worked with some of the most influential artists. of our generation, which is really cool, just to sit and be with you to talk about some of this.

Speaker 2 Some of the people like Red Hot Chili Peppers, Johnny Cash, Jay-Z,

Speaker 2 Tom Petty,

Speaker 2 Anadel Ray, so many Adele,

Speaker 2 the Chicks, Kanye West, Lady Gaga, so many incredible influential artists of our time.

Speaker 2 I watched part of your documentary series and I just am fascinated by the way you think and by the way you move throughout space and time.

Speaker 2 I love that you're an avid meditator and that you walk around barefoot pretty much every single day.

Speaker 2 I think you had to wear shoes here today just to enter the building, but otherwise 99% of your life is barefoot.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 something that I feel like a lot of people struggle with is tapping into their creativity.

Speaker 2 And I think a lot of people are born with an artistic expression inside of them, but then it gets diminished over time. A lot of people, not everyone.

Speaker 2 And I'm curious, do you feel like

Speaker 2 have you, when have you felt like you've been most insecure in your creative endeavors? Because you seem so confident. You have hit after hit.
Everything you touch turns into gold, seemingly.

Speaker 2 But I'm also assuming that not everything works out the way you envision. Do you ever feel insecure with your artistic expression or are you always confident? I'm confident with artistic expression.

Speaker 2 Because my only goal is to make something that I like. And I know that I can keep working on it until I like it.
So in some ways, there's no pressure because the goal is to make the thing that I like.

Speaker 2 I know what I like.

Speaker 2 If I don't like it, I keep working, and eventually, we get to a place where we like it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Do you ever face the inner critic of,

Speaker 2 well, what if other people don't like this? No, I don't consider them at all. Really? Yeah, something I say in the book is that the audience comes last.

Speaker 2 And I believe that.

Speaker 2 I'm not making it for them. I'm making it for me.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 it turns out that when you make something truly for yourself, you're doing the best thing you possibly can for the audience.

Speaker 2 So much of why

Speaker 2 if you go to the movies, so many big movies are just not good.

Speaker 2 It's because they're...

Speaker 2 They're not being made by a person who cares about it. They're being made by people who are trying to make something something that they think someone else is going to like.

Speaker 2 And that's not how art works. Art doesn't, that's something else.
It's not art. That's commerce.

Speaker 2 So if we're making art, we're making,

Speaker 2 it's almost like a diary entry.

Speaker 2 So it... Can someone, could I be concerned that someone else might not like my diary entry? It doesn't make sense.
You know, it has nothing to do with them.

Speaker 2 My diary entry has nothing to do with anyone else. else.
So everything we make as artists are essentially diary entries. That's interesting.

Speaker 2 And it's also most people never want the world to see their diary, right? It's like you kind of keep it closed off. You keep it to yourself.

Speaker 2 You almost feel embarrassed if someone found your diary, if it's really personal, intimate, you know, fears or concerns or hopes and dreams.

Speaker 2 So how does someone write or create something for themselves in their own personal diary, but also want to share it with the world and not allow the criticisms to affect them. That's where the

Speaker 2 courage of the artist comes in,

Speaker 2 which is

Speaker 2 this is who I am.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 in my case, I'm less concerned with the result. So I think that's a lot of it is like I'm not making it for someone else to get their reaction.
I'm making it to have my experience.

Speaker 2 And as soon as I decide to share it, in my mind, it's success because I care about it enough. I like it enough for other people to see it.
If other people, they can like it or not, that's up to them.

Speaker 2 And that's

Speaker 2 their thing. You know, that's about them.
That's not about me. Why do you think so many people struggle with the opinions of others when they're sharing their art to the world?

Speaker 2 I think it's a natural human thought.

Speaker 2 I don't know if it was always the case. Because you don't have that at all.

Speaker 2 I don't have that at all. I don't have that at all.
But it seems like 99% of people have that. It seems like it.
Maybe I'm wrong.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think the best artists tend not to have that or find a way to turn it off. Really? And a big part of my job with artists is helping them turn it off.
It's like

Speaker 2 we're not thinking about singles. We're not thinking about chart position.
We're not thinking about anything, but making the most beautiful, honest, true thing we can.

Speaker 2 And when I say honest and true, it could be fiction.

Speaker 2 Do you know what I'm saying? It's not,

Speaker 2 it's the thing that

Speaker 2 touches us

Speaker 2 and excites us and surprises us, which is also interesting. The fact that we can make something that surprises us happens every day.
Yeah. You talk about magic a lot.

Speaker 2 You know, I've seen that in your book, but also in the documentary series about,

Speaker 2 you know, the work you've done.

Speaker 2 And how does someone tap into their own magic when when they have such a critical mind, self-criticism, but also family critics, managers, all that other stuff criticizing what's good and what's not good?

Speaker 2 How do you coach someone to actually eliminate or diminish decades of conditioning within a week or two to make their art?

Speaker 2 I would say the

Speaker 2 it comes down to a

Speaker 2 like a personal reaction to something.

Speaker 2 If I gave you two different foods and I asked you to taste them, you wouldn't have a hard time telling me which one you liked if you really liked one and didn't like the other.

Speaker 2 So, if you had people around you saying, no, but this other one that you don't like, that's the good one,

Speaker 2 that no one could convince you that the thing that tastes bad to you tastes good to you. So, So it's, it's a very simple, it's such a simple idea.
Getting to, what do I actually like?

Speaker 2 No second guessing. No,

Speaker 2 it doesn't go past, and it doesn't have to stand for anything. It doesn't have to represent you.

Speaker 2 It's just, this is the thing that tastes good to me. What do you think? That's our whole job is this tastes good to me.
What do you think? When an artist is,

Speaker 2 you mentioned commerce and you mentioned art. When an artist is struggling financially and they're like, I want to make things that I enjoy that taste really good for me,

Speaker 2 but I've been doing that for five, seven, ten years and it doesn't taste good for anyone else. How can I make a living around my art?

Speaker 2 Or should I not think about my art as making a living, but I should be thinking about commerce separate from the art? I think dividing them is a really healthy idea.

Speaker 2 And that's just having a job that supports you so that you can be free in your art is ultimately what's best for the art. Really? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Now you can get a job related. You know, you can get a job in the industry you're interested in.
You can get a job if you're a painter. You can get a job in a gallery.
You can be around it.

Speaker 2 And then also when you do something like that, if you were to work in a recording studio, you may decide this is not for me. You know, we don't really know.

Speaker 2 We have ideas of what we want to try, but then when you try them, sometimes, yes, that works, sometimes you don't.

Speaker 2 So many people get on a track when they're young. I have a cousin who

Speaker 2 went to school to become a dentist, and he was a dentist for years. And after 15 or 20 years,

Speaker 2 just like, I can't do this. This isn't, I don't want to do this.

Speaker 2 It was a wrong choice. So many people live a...
an unhappy life sticking to a program from when they were younger. And we have to find like you, you are

Speaker 2 speaking to people now versus playing sports. It's a big change.
Yeah. But it seems like a really positive change for you.

Speaker 2 But it wasn't what you set out to do originally. Right.

Speaker 2 Yeah. You've been doing this for how long now? Producing music? 40 years? Maybe about 40 years.
Roughly 40 years. Close to 40 years.

Speaker 2 Have there ever been a time where you felt like it was stagnant for you, or you weren't creatively inspired, or you felt like it was dull? It wasn't this awe or magic that you were wanting?

Speaker 2 It was, it's always magic.

Speaker 2 It's always exciting.

Speaker 2 I can't say that every moment of every project has been that, but there are always these glimpses of wonder that come through

Speaker 2 the creative process that are staggering. And

Speaker 2 they're very addictive. You know, being in a room where something's not happening and all of a sudden it's happening and you don't know why and you don't know what changed.

Speaker 2 It's a very exciting feeling. How often do you experience that feeling? All the time.
Really? All the time.

Speaker 2 Now, when I say all the time, we may start a project that maybe doesn't happen for a few days, but then it starts happening. What is that moment? And what is the feeling that you have?

Speaker 2 And what is it that you notice? either in your mind or in the environment that is shifting for that feeling to occur.

Speaker 2 It's an inner excitement. It's like a leaning forward.

Speaker 2 It's a curiosity of like,

Speaker 2 can we hear that again? What was that? What was that? I've not heard that before. That's interesting.

Speaker 2 Really? Absolutely. So after four decades of doing this, you still get surprised by hearing new things.
All the time. Really? All the time.
Why does this work with this? Who knows?

Speaker 2 And if I were to tell you the idea, or if someone were to tell me the idea, I would listen to their words and think that's a terrible idea. And then we try it, and it's remarkable.
Wow.

Speaker 2 Can you give an example of something that stands out for you? From maybe a well-known artist that people would know about, or maybe someone completely unknown.

Speaker 2 I can say something happened the other day

Speaker 2 where we recorded a song in a particular way with a particular instrument, and it sounded really beautiful. And then the artist said, well, let's try it.
I'm imagining it. And they described

Speaker 2 something

Speaker 2 so different.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 in the description, it sounded terrible. The way they explained it.
The way they explained it. Or the references.
They gave me references of, well, if we do it like this band with this kind of a beat.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I tried to imagine. the same song that we just recorded this different way, that way.

Speaker 2 And in my imagination, it did not sound good.

Speaker 2 and then i said let's try it and then they played it and at first it didn't sound good but very quickly it got great

Speaker 2 and there's no way to know there's no way to know you can't that's that's a big part of it is um i see artists who get into arguments like a band who gets into an argument let's do it this way no let's do it this way

Speaker 2 And I'll always say, well, let's just play it both ways and listen, see.

Speaker 2 Let's see. Let's see what actually happens.
Right. And that might spark something completely new.
Absolutely. They both might suck.
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 Let's try it another way. Or they both might be great.
And sometimes when they're both great, it's like, oh, maybe this is better for the chorus. Then this other thing actually can work as a bridge.

Speaker 2 We weren't even looking for a bridge. Yeah, that's fascinating.
In this

Speaker 2 documentary series about you and your facility and kind of your life. The Shangri-La dot shit.
Shangri-La, yeah. Powerful.
I'm not all the way through it. I've done the first episode and a half.

Speaker 2 Someone in the first episode says,

Speaker 2 Rick helps people be the best version of you. And I'm curious, who helps you become the best version of yourself?

Speaker 2 Probably, I would say now my family, you know, having a family, but also I have some

Speaker 2 really

Speaker 2 hard-driving friends. Like, you know, you met Laird Hamilton.
Someone like, if you have someone like Laird in your life,

Speaker 2 being around people like him make you better at being a human being.

Speaker 2 What's the biggest thing you struggle with today?

Speaker 2 I think that there are a lot of fun things to try and finding time to

Speaker 2 do all of the things possible, the exciting things that I want to try. Right.
Because how do you pick and choose the projects you work on and the artists you work with?

Speaker 2 Is it a feeling? Is it relationships you have with their managers? Is it, yeah, I want to try this new thing and let's bring them in?

Speaker 2 Is it it usually starts with meeting the artist and just if there's a connection with the human

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 that's usually how it starts. How often does that happen then? Because I'm assuming a lot of people want to work with you.

Speaker 2 So is it, you know, every Monday people will, you know, managers will send their artists to you and they'll have an interview process with you for an hour or two and then you'll get a vibe and see if you want to work with them.

Speaker 2 Is there a waiting list? How does that work? It honestly doesn't happen that often because I'm always in different parts of the world and I'm not really part of the system.

Speaker 2 So if you were to go to, if you got signed to a record company and they showed you a list of all the producers to work with, I'm not on anybody's list. Interesting.

Speaker 2 So someone would have to seek me out outside of the normal system to find me and then it either would or wouldn't happen. Interesting.

Speaker 2 What do you see is the thing that holds people back the most from being

Speaker 2 their most creative and best self?

Speaker 2 I think it's being concerned what other people think and

Speaker 2 a feeling of

Speaker 2 that the people who make great things are somehow special and that they're not special. And that's just not true.

Speaker 2 We're all, everyone has the capability to make great things

Speaker 2 and none of us are special. It seems like a lot of people, they're focused on what other people think, like you said.

Speaker 2 And it almost it blocks them into this kind of rut feeling, I guess, that they feel like they're stuck in a rut. I don't know if you've heard this before with a lot of your artists, but with

Speaker 2 me as a writer and an author, I've heard so many people come to me say, I want to write a book.

Speaker 2 And I ask them, how long have you been, had this idea that you wanted to write this book about this thing?

Speaker 2 And some people will say five, seven, 10 years, but they've been worried about what people think or they feel creatively stuck in a rut.

Speaker 2 Do you ever feel stuck in a rut? And if so, how do you you personally get out of that?

Speaker 2 I think taking action is a really great thing and not setting up barriers of entry. Like

Speaker 2 I can imagine a musician saying, I can't play this song because I don't have the right guitar or I don't have the right equipment to do it. And there are no barriers to entry.
There's always a way.

Speaker 2 I come from a punk rock background. So in punk rock, it was a do-it-yourself mentality.

Speaker 2 And,

Speaker 2 you know, I started my first record company not knowing

Speaker 2 not knowing that was something you can do. It just really happened automatically.
I wanted to start making records. I wanted people to hear them.
I never knew that you could get signed to a label.

Speaker 2 I just thought, well, if you want to make a record, you make a record. So I made records and, you know, print up 500 copies of a seven-inch single, for example.

Speaker 2 So I think there's always a way you don't have to wait for permission from someone else.

Speaker 2 I think that's a big part. People are waiting for permission to actually make their art.
To make their art.

Speaker 2 Someone has to say, you know, I'll hire you to do this or I'll publish your book if you write a book or set the stage to allow you to do it. But I don't think that's the way great things are made.

Speaker 2 When you printed those first 500 singles,

Speaker 2 what was your dream or your vision? Was it, okay, now I'm going to, how do I sell these? Am I going to give them away for free? What was the process for you?

Speaker 2 Combination of giving them away for free and selling enough to be able to make another one. That was always, any of the things I've made, it's always been about sustainability.

Speaker 2 As long as I can make another one, it's a success.

Speaker 2 But at this point, you know, you're sustainable probably for life, I'm assuming, with the success you've had.

Speaker 2 So you don't have to make something to try to make your money back, you know, or get your time back or whatever. So what is the vision now?

Speaker 2 It's still, I still think in those terms, though I want, I feel like I want to make it where

Speaker 2 it's sustainable by itself.

Speaker 2 There's something that feels good about that. That you make something that can live on

Speaker 2 not because of an endowment. Yeah, that's interesting.
I know you're... I don't know why.
I don't know why that is, but that's just my... And maybe it's just the way I was brought up.
May it just be.

Speaker 2 What does an artist need to be thinking and feeling at the same time to create great art?

Speaker 2 I would say thinking is the least part of it. It's much more about feeling and

Speaker 2 being true to themselves, whatever that is.

Speaker 2 Feeling, feeling their truths.

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Speaker 2 And how do you know when an artist is being truthful in front of you?

Speaker 2 It's just a feeling. It's a feeling.
Feel it. Yeah.
I think something you said was,

Speaker 2 I have no skill set. It's all intuitive.
It's not what's in my head. It comes through me.
Yes.

Speaker 2 So you're not analyzing or thinking about it. You're saying, huh, something doesn't feel right.
It starts with a feeling always.

Speaker 2 It starts with a feeling. The analysis comes in later to try to understand either the feeling, if there's a reason.
Like, if I'm just feeling something, I can experience it and be fine.

Speaker 2 If we have to act on the feeling, then it's like, okay, this feels like this.

Speaker 2 Is there a way to figure out why?

Speaker 2 Sometimes you can and sometimes you can't. And if you can figure out why, or if you think you know why, then you can say, hmm, could it be this, this, or this?

Speaker 2 Let's try those things, see what happens. Do you have a process when you're

Speaker 2 starting the first session with an artist after you've been introduced and you say, okay, let's do this. We're going to work together.

Speaker 2 Do you have a process where you set a personal intention that you don't tell them, but then also you tell them what the intention is for your time working together?

Speaker 2 I'll say when we're starting a new project, I always have anxiety. Always.

Speaker 2 Always.

Speaker 2 Because I don't know what's going to happen. You know, there's a real question mark when we walk in to start.

Speaker 2 And I know that it could go a lot of different ways. And I don't have, I'm not interested in having a playbook in advance.
I'm interested in seeing where it's going to go. And it's scary because

Speaker 2 it could not go good. And sometimes there's an ex, you know, some artists have an expectation that I'm going to do something.

Speaker 2 I can't do anything. You know,

Speaker 2 it's like, it's either going to happen or it's not going to happen. So.

Speaker 2 But then usually within sometimes it's the first day, sometimes it's the third day, sometimes it's the second week where something happens like, whoa, what was that? How did that happen?

Speaker 2 And then that might give us a clue. It's like, oh, this is, this is what it wants to be.
And that may change also. It may, that may be the first inclination.

Speaker 2 It could start that way and then it makes a left turn, turns into something completely different.

Speaker 2 The work itself tells us where it wants to go. So because we have, the reason it's so scary is because we have so little control over it.
That's what's

Speaker 2 no control. None.

Speaker 2 And if an artist has a big expectation, I need to put out a record that's going to do well, I need to make money, I need to make the label happy, whatever it is, my fans need to love this, then that could feel like a lot of pressure.

Speaker 2 But do you allow that pressure to affect you? No, because I know it's not in the interest of the work. It's like we're all on the same page.

Speaker 2 Even the people we're ignoring,

Speaker 2 the record companies, the managers, the agents, the people who are yelling, I need this, I need this now.

Speaker 2 Ultimately, for everyone involved, if the artist makes the best possible work that they can everybody wins

Speaker 2 it's just that no one involved in the process understands what it takes for that thing to happen i had a conversation with a basketball player a member of the gold estate warriors who told me um there's all this pressure now to

Speaker 2 do a lot of stuff on social media.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 he said, and it's getting in the way of our playing. Interesting.
And I said, well, if you tell the people who are asking you to do the social media stuff, don't you want us to win?

Speaker 2 So if you want us to win, let us focus on winning. And he said, they don't seem to care.
They want us to do the social media stuff.

Speaker 2 They want us to distract ourselves from the work of the game, from the flow, from the practice, putting in the reps, showing up.

Speaker 2 And then I say, well, if then it's up to you, what's more important to please them or to win? Man, this is fascinating.

Speaker 2 What was the experience for you where the artist or the band came in and it was the fastest, best flowing process you've ever experienced? We're just like everything was lining up.

Speaker 2 Authenticity, truth, you know, raw realness was happening every

Speaker 2 day.

Speaker 2 And it was also, it was a great success for them personally to have the art be real and honest, but it also landed

Speaker 2 commercially and took off.

Speaker 2 The first thing that comes to mind would be Johnny Cash because he had gone, you know, 25 years of not having success.

Speaker 2 And he had been dropped from two labels. And when I signed him, he didn't even know why I was interested.
That really was the conversation. It's like,

Speaker 2 why do you think working with you is going to be any different than working with anyone else? Like, he had given up.

Speaker 2 And for him to

Speaker 2 get into it, we recorded in my living room, and he would just play me songs on an acoustic guitar.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 there was an honesty in what was happening there. We didn't know that we were making a record at that time.
We were just looking for songs. So he was playing me songs.

Speaker 2 It was almost like a way for us to to musically meet each other. He would play me the songs he loved, either from childhood or songs that he thinks he'd like to sing

Speaker 2 or a song he wrote. And

Speaker 2 it was just a very honest experience. And then we went into the studio, we picked some of those songs, we went through hundreds of songs and then picked a handful to try to record.

Speaker 2 And when we went into the studio with the band,

Speaker 2 it didn't sound It didn't have what the living room recordings had. There was some intimate honesty,

Speaker 2 and we'd never heard Johnny Cash that way before.

Speaker 2 So that led to the first album, which was a solo acoustic album. Again, we didn't set out to make a solo acoustic album, but it revealed itself as that's the most interesting thing to do.

Speaker 2 And that ended up being very successful and very successful with young people, which he had not experienced since the 1950s.

Speaker 2 So that was a,

Speaker 2 And after that, after the success of that album, we made five more albums together and he had confidence

Speaker 2 based on the experience of the first one, which he'd expected nobody to care about, really

Speaker 2 took hold with people. And then on, I think it was on our fourth or fifth album.

Speaker 2 He did a cover of Hurt, the nine-inch nails song, and that ended up being probably the biggest, biggest, you know, maybe the biggest hit of his life, certainly of his later life. Wow.

Speaker 2 And that was a real revelation. How important is confidence for an artist in your mind to have?

Speaker 2 Because I've been around some of the greatest athletes that are freaks of nature athletically, that are gifted beyond anything physically, who can do anything in practice.

Speaker 2 But then they lacked the confidence in a game and they looked like an average player. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Is that the same thing with artists, singers, guitar players, musicians, where they could be so gifted, but if there's a time when the pressure is on to record, they don't have the confidence.

Speaker 2 Does that hold people back? Have you seen that? I'll say it's not as simple as that because

Speaker 2 there's a vulnerability required for the artist

Speaker 2 that if you're confident to the point that it disguises your vulnerability,

Speaker 2 that doesn't work. So it's like a dance

Speaker 2 between

Speaker 2 being wildly open and vulnerable and commitment to do whatever it takes to get your work through. That combination, which is a difficult combination.

Speaker 2 It's almost like what I'm hearing you said, this is a really interesting point. It's almost like

Speaker 2 you just have to have courage to be vulnerable, which is not really confidence.

Speaker 2 It's more of like you just got gotta, if you're unwilling to be courageous with your vulnerability, you just won't be able to share your art. That's true.

Speaker 2 There's, I'll say, though, to get up in front of people and sing takes a certain amount of confidence. Yes.
It's just part of the, it's a hard thing to do.

Speaker 2 I couldn't imagine doing it. That's true.
My, a friend of mine, just

Speaker 2 Rachel Platten, she just

Speaker 2 She wrote a song called Fight Song that was, you know, really, really popular over the last six or seven years. But she had, you know, she started a family over the last five years.

Speaker 2 So she's got two, two young kids, and she just played at the Troubadour a couple nights ago. And I'd seen her play in the past where she was uber confident, but she hadn't played in a while.

Speaker 2 And so she came out and she's like, guys, I'm actually really nervous. And this is my first time playing, you know, kind of with a man with these new songs in a while.
And I'm revealing myself.

Speaker 2 of these new songs. You know, you could sense this, you know, vulnerability, which was actually beautiful.
Yes. It was like we're rooting for her.

Speaker 2 She messed up a few times, but she kept going. And she's like, hey, I'm going to restart this.
And thank you guys.

Speaker 2 But it was like, wow. And it made moments of awe and magic happen.
Yes. It was so cool.
Yes. And it's not about perfection.
That's the thing. It's like humanity breathes in the mistakes.

Speaker 2 It's what's not ordinary.

Speaker 2 If it was machine-like perfect, it's not so interesting. It's cookie-cutter right it's all the same so it's the

Speaker 2 it's the edges it's the frayed edges that make it interesting

Speaker 2 talk about transcendence you talk about manifestation um in the universe i know you're a big meditator how long have you been meditating for i learned when i was 14 and um it's been a big part of my life the whole time.

Speaker 2 I can't say I've done it continually,

Speaker 2 but I go through phases of five years on, two years off,

Speaker 2 or something might replace it. That's another kind of a meditation.
Like I may go from a TM sitting meditation to learning Tai Chi, and then Chai Chi will fill the slot of my TM time. Right.

Speaker 2 Transcendental meditation. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And I also read that you really have never been into drugs or alcohol. Is that correct? I've never been drunk or high in my life.
Wow.

Speaker 2 And, you know, as an athlete playing football, college football and professional football, it was kind of shocking when people would hear that from me because the stereotype is, you know, the dumb jock that just drinks and does the cake stands.

Speaker 2 But I learned early on, I was telling you before, that my brother went to prison when I was eight. And when you go to a prison, a visiting room every single weekend,

Speaker 2 then you realize quickly you don't want to go there. And

Speaker 2 a lot of guys were in there for drugs or, you know, doing bad things. And for me, I was just like, oh, I don't even want to try some of this stuff because

Speaker 2 I don't know where this might lead. So let me just eliminate this from my life.
Now, I've had sips here and there, but I've never been drunk. How has

Speaker 2 cleansing your mind of drugs and alcohol, of not really diving into it, supported you as an artist? And do you think drugs and alcohol can make artists be great?

Speaker 2 I can tell you that when I was going to high school, most of the kids that I knew would come home from school and get high.

Speaker 2 And the main reason was out of boredom.

Speaker 2 I'm just trying to fill time.

Speaker 2 And I never, I always feel like there's not enough time. Like there's so much I want to learn.
There's so much I want to read. There's so much I want to try that

Speaker 2 I'm not trying to turn off time. I'm interested in something different.
Now, the idea of a hallucinatory experience sounds interesting to me, but I've not done it.

Speaker 2 You've never done psychedelics or anything? I've never done that either. I've always been, you know, I have a lot of friends that do it.
I'm sure you do as well.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I don't know, for whatever reason, it's never

Speaker 2 excited me to try. Yeah.
Maybe in the future. Yeah, same.
I feel like someday I will probably do it. Right.

Speaker 2 So, have you been drunk or high? I got drunk one time as part of a school assignment.

Speaker 2 School assignment? Well, what school is this?

Speaker 2 I went to Harvard for a summer between my junior and senior year of high school to start getting college credits. And I took a logic class and a design class, and they had a Harvard bartending class.

Speaker 2 And I thought, that's really funny. Even as someone who doesn't drink, the idea of like having a degree in bartending from Harvard was funny.
So I did it. And I thought of it like chemistry.

Speaker 2 The idea of mixing things is interesting. Interesting.
So only one time. Yeah, the final exam was you had to mix like 30 different drinks and then taste them to know what they taste like.

Speaker 2 And I got really drunk and it was a terrible experience. So you've never been drunk since then? No.
You've been high?

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 2 I went on my 40th birthday in Kauai.

Speaker 2 I prayed all day and I did a ceremony where I smoked some marijuana the only time in my life. And

Speaker 2 I would say it had almost no effect. No effect, yeah.
Almost no effect. So you might have felt a little buzz or something, but nothing.
I didn't feel a buzz. I would say that when I looked out into

Speaker 2 the landscape, there was more clarity between the foreground and background.

Speaker 2 That was one. And I remember we drove to dinner and I drove, and driving felt more fun than usual, like playing a video game.
Sure, sure, sure. But you weren't really high or whatever.

Speaker 2 That's fascinating. So never really drunk or high, except for a social experiment or, or, you know, a one-time trial thing.

Speaker 2 I don't think I've met many people who's never been drunk or high like me. So that's pretty interesting.
Maybe that's the Pisces in us.

Speaker 2 Maybe. And you know, Pisces have a tendency to go the other way of everything.
We are addictive people. Yes.
Historically. Yes.
Pisces.

Speaker 2 That's why one of the things is I don't think if I would have gotten into alcohol or...

Speaker 2 some type of drug, I think I would have become addicted. I would have been extreme with it.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 So I've tried to be extreme in more healthier ways, I think, for myself.

Speaker 2 Now, the stereotype is, or the generalization is that a lot of artists smoke weed or do drugs or experiment with alcohol or do these different things. And they talk,

Speaker 2 you know, maybe this is my own perception of it. They talk about it in their creative process, right? I was high when I did this and it gave me all these creative ideas.

Speaker 2 How do you view that of when artists are working with you? Are they smoking? Are they drinking? You know, when they're with you, or do you try to help them eliminate that to clear their mind?

Speaker 2 I want people to do what they want to do. I have no

Speaker 2 opinion. If I see someone doing something that's interfering with their work,

Speaker 2 I'll talk about it.

Speaker 2 But if it's not interfering with their work, that's their business. Have you ever seen an artist that you knew had a history of alcohol or smoking marijuana or some type of drug

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 when they worked with you they weren't they were clear of all drugs and substances and they were actually able to create something beautiful and magical

Speaker 2 well i saw the chili peppers go from a band that were very dysfunctional um

Speaker 2 on a lot of drugs which i didn't really know i just knew that when i met them the feeling in the room was one i didn't want to be around

Speaker 2 And then I met them years later and they had gotten clean.

Speaker 2 And I felt like it was a different group of people. And then we ended up making Blood, Sugar, Sex, Magic, which ended up being a very successful album for them.

Speaker 2 And then I produced most of their albums since. When they were clean, and you know, that's interesting.

Speaker 2 Do you think that people overall make better work as artists when they are clear-minded without substances?

Speaker 2 I think over the long term, that's probably the case. But there are many great artists who use use something like marijuana as a.

Speaker 2 Some people have told me that they can hear music in a different way.

Speaker 2 Again, I haven't experienced it, so I can't say, but some people have told me that they hear music in a different way when they smoke and they can access their creativity.

Speaker 2 So I think you have to do your own testing.

Speaker 2 Do you think it's better to make, well, I don't know, better is the right word, but do you think

Speaker 2 it's more impactful to make your art from a place of pain, anger, or sadness, or from a place of love, peace, and harmony?

Speaker 2 I don't think it matters. I think it's true to your experience.
So if you're feeling anger and sadness, a sad, angry song will probably be good.

Speaker 2 And if you're feeling love and peace, then you're in the right frequency to create that kind of song. You can also, sometimes if you're in a real pain, you can write a yearning song

Speaker 2 for love

Speaker 2 that can have be very deep but one of the things about when you're in pain um

Speaker 2 you tap into uh

Speaker 2 you tap into things to you're looking for

Speaker 2 you you're not satisfied in your condition

Speaker 2 So you're yearning for change. And sometimes the energy of yearning for change can lead to really beautiful music.
Right. Wow.

Speaker 2 Is there someone

Speaker 2 that you're able to talk about or share that spoke and created from a place of yearning when they worked with you that later said it was an extremely healing process for them, working with you for a few weeks on an album and expressing their diary in that way and allowed them to heal and have lightness on the other side?

Speaker 2 The most recent one was

Speaker 2 I made an album, the last album of Kesha.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 she had gone through a very difficult experience. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And she told me that it was a very healing experience working on the album and different than any experience she'd had previously where it was much more about commerce before.

Speaker 2 What's the most painful thing you've been through that

Speaker 2 you've had to heal and overcome? Probably the biggest one was,

Speaker 2 you know, I was overweight most of my life.

Speaker 2 And it was just not, I was not comfortable in my body. And I always felt like an outsider and felt like it limited what I could do.
Really? Yeah. So I think

Speaker 2 probably

Speaker 2 weight was my biggest issue. What was the root behind that, you think? I think it was mostly bad information.

Speaker 2 Although my mom was obese, so I thought it's just genetic. And I tried everything.
I tried every

Speaker 2 type of diet. Nothing worked.
And then eventually I found the correct balance. And, you know, I was a vegan for 23 years and I weighed 318 pounds as a vegan.
Wow.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you can be a sick vegan. Or you can be a little bit more.

Speaker 2 I was very sick as a vegan and I wasn't getting what I needed. Right.
And it's a carb, it's basically a carbohydrate diet.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and you can have all the sugar you want being a vegan, but that doesn't mean mean it's healthy for you as well. So that's like

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Speaker 2 What do you think was,

Speaker 2 you know, it sounded like you tried a lot of different things for 20 years, but it didn't work.

Speaker 2 But you found the right combination, but was there something you needed to mend or heal emotionally that allowed you to shift internally? It was just information. I was always, I was always

Speaker 2 willing to do it. I would say probably the biggest, maybe there is an aspect, which is

Speaker 2 I thought I knew what was best. So there was a sense of turning over control to someone else.
That was a surrender. Wow.

Speaker 2 I saw a doctor at UCLA who a friend of mine recommended I go to. I knew it wasn't going to work because I had done everything and nothing worked.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 he

Speaker 2 put me on a particular diet. And I remember thinking, it sounds terrible,

Speaker 2 and it's not going to work. But I'll do what you say.
I had no belief.

Speaker 2 But I put my faith in him.

Speaker 2 Or

Speaker 2 I gave up, but listened and

Speaker 2 committed to the process. And committed to the process, and the weight fell off.
Really? How long did it take? Was it like a six-month year process? 14 months, and I lost 135 pounds.

Speaker 2 Man, that's awesome. Congrats on that.
Thank you very much. Wow.
And when was this?

Speaker 2 12 years ago, something like that. 12 years ago.
You look really healthy right now.

Speaker 2 That suntan, you know, wherever you're at. I spend a lot of time in the sun.

Speaker 2 I'm a

Speaker 2 sun worshiper.

Speaker 2 Now, do you feel like

Speaker 2 when you were able to, I guess, get that support, see the changes physically, to something

Speaker 2 transform inside of you

Speaker 2 spiritually to be a better artist, once that transformation started to happen? Or do you think you were still making great art, you know, when you were 100 pounds overweight?

Speaker 2 I think we were making great art the whole time. The differences

Speaker 2 between

Speaker 2 losing weight and then meeting Laird and starting to train and get into my body, because I was sedentary my whole life.

Speaker 2 Just sitting all day. Sitting all day or laying down all day.
I liked laying down more than sitting. This is the longest I've been in a chair since I've been on an airplane.

Speaker 2 With Laird, when I showed up to Laird's the first time, I couldn't do one push-up. Come on.
Swear to you, could not do one push-up. And with his support,

Speaker 2 worked up to being able to do 100 consecutive push-ups, which was

Speaker 2 mind-blowing.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 what changed between the weight loss and meeting Laird was

Speaker 2 I now see anything as possible and that you could train for anything. There's nothing you can't do.
You can't be the best in the world at something,

Speaker 2 but you can be a lot better than you are at anything you want to put the time into learning, whatever it is. You could do anything.
And that's a great

Speaker 2 inspiring feeling. And I feel like I bring that into the art where I already had great confidence.
But even more so, I now know anything is possible at any time. Wow.
Just if you have to do the work.

Speaker 2 So this was 12 years ago when this started to happen, right? And so

Speaker 2 if I get my wrath right, are you 60 right now? Yeah, I just turned 60. Just turned 60 in March.
I just turned 40.

Speaker 2 If you could go back to your 40-year-old self, what would the number one piece of advice be for you at 40?

Speaker 2 If you can think about where you were then, who you were working with, the products you were working on, the people in your life, knowing what you went through the last 20 years,

Speaker 2 what would you tell yourself then? I would always say just have as much fun as possible because

Speaker 2 I'm a workaholic by nature and I love making things and I love making good things and a great deal of time and effort goes into that and and I'm hard on myself in that way and that I have high expectations

Speaker 2 and I think we can have fun too yeah of course yeah what brings you the most joy

Speaker 2 I think probably quality time in nature with my family. That's probably the best.
Being in a beautiful place, being close to my family, breathing fresh air, walking on the beach,

Speaker 2 laughing together,

Speaker 2 reading together, watching movies together,

Speaker 2 you know, watching wrestling. You know, I like pro-wrestling more than

Speaker 2 pro-wrestling with my sons, fun. That's great.
Are you more of a wrestling fan or are UFC now?

Speaker 2 Always been pro-wrestling. UFC feels like they might hurt each other.
They do hurt each other. That's why I like wrestling.
It's like it's more

Speaker 2 everybody's on the same side for it to be the best show. It wanted to be a win-win.
It's a win-win.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you talked about that in this documentary series about, you know, I love the video of you being like the ultimate promoter with the BC Boys in a commercial, like just being this hype man promoter.

Speaker 2 Like, you know,

Speaker 2 how much has,

Speaker 2 I guess, pro wrestling influenced you as an artist? A lot. A lot.
lot. Because

Speaker 2 it's a world where you never really know what's true. It's a world of mystery.

Speaker 2 And great skill is involved in what they're doing. And there's a story.

Speaker 2 And it's a story sometimes of people who seem to hate each other. Do they hate each other? They might be best friends.
You know, it's like we don't know. But sometimes they really do hate each other.

Speaker 2 And then the matches are different when they really hate each other. But you never know when it is.

Speaker 2 So there's this, there's a sense of, and I think it's more honest than any other form of any other sport or any other form of entertainment.

Speaker 2 See, it's funny, I say it's the only legitimate sport is pro-wrestling, because it's the most like the world.

Speaker 2 In the world, we don't really know what's true. Everybody has a facade.
People put on a, you know, airs or a performance. A mask.
Yeah. Or the politician talks and we don't really know who they are.

Speaker 2 They say these things that are often written for them. We don't know.

Speaker 2 So there's this like performative aspect of the world

Speaker 2 that wrestling, that's what the world's really like. We say that the, you know, wrestling is fake.
It's like the world is fake and wrestling is real. That's what it is.

Speaker 2 I wanted to go back into what you talked about.

Speaker 2 You mentioned transcendence and I think you mentioned the universe having your back when you asked for an answer with this particular song with System of the Down.

Speaker 2 What are your thoughts on manifesting and manifesting something you want and alchemizing it into the world? Do you believe in manifesting? Do you believe in

Speaker 2 artists should be thinking in that way? Or what's your thoughts on it?

Speaker 2 I believe in it a million percent.

Speaker 2 It's something

Speaker 2 that I've experienced before I knew what it was.

Speaker 2 So when I say it's like,

Speaker 2 I feel like it has to do with the purity of the intention behind what you're doing. If your intention is pure and you're doing it for the right reasons, it seems like things tend to work out.

Speaker 2 And that ends up being

Speaker 2 a manifestation mindset. But it didn't start for me that way.
It just was like, I really believe in what I'm doing. I really care about it.
I want it to be the best it could be for me.

Speaker 2 And I'm excited to share it.

Speaker 2 And the results have shown me

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 you can manifest things. It happens.

Speaker 2 But I'll say when I do it, it's never based on the outcome. Ooh, what do you mean? I'm never asking for a result.
What are you asking for?

Speaker 2 I'm asking for to rise to the occasion to make the best thing that I can, for the thing that I make to be great. Great is a vague word.
I don't know what great means.

Speaker 2 I came to realize recently what great means, but I didn't know most of my life I was aiming for great, but I didn't know what that was. And I've come to realize that great means

Speaker 2 it's a devotional. It's a devotional kind of greatness.
It's a gift to the universe. It's a gift to God.
Wow.

Speaker 2 If you're making a gift to God,

Speaker 2 there's no greater,

Speaker 2 you can't put more into it than that.

Speaker 2 You know, you can't, what about the single?

Speaker 2 What about what someone's going to say?

Speaker 2 Who has anything to say if we're making a gift for God?

Speaker 2 There's, you're putting all of your purest intention into this thing for the universe. Wow.
That's where it's at. I didn't know that.
I came to realize that recently. Again, my word was greatness.

Speaker 2 Greatness. That was the word of what I was shooting for.

Speaker 2 But I've come to realize what it is. Wow.

Speaker 2 You have a whole kind of section about greatness and success in the creative act, a way of being,

Speaker 2 which I loved your explanation there.

Speaker 2 That is fascinating. So greatness for you, what I'm hearing you say is

Speaker 2 a pure gift of yours to God. Yes.
And it's a gift of yourself to God.

Speaker 2 It's like, this is the best I can do.

Speaker 2 This is my offering. This is what I have to offer.

Speaker 2 If you could think of a formula for manifesting as an artist,

Speaker 2 what would that formula be? I don't think there's a formula. Is there an art to manifesting?

Speaker 2 I don't know.

Speaker 2 I think

Speaker 2 it sounds like a shortcut, and I don't think there are shortcuts. I think it's always

Speaker 2 a version of doing the work, of finding your way into what it is that the universe wants you to do, and then

Speaker 2 really dedicating yourself. How do you know? what the universe wants you to do and when to do it? The right timing.
Because you could be like, I have this idea for this thing.

Speaker 2 Maybe it's the right right time now. Maybe it's five, 10 years away from now.
How do we really tap into that knowing? I think

Speaker 2 it's situational. And I think, again, if you're tapped into the universe, it tells you,

Speaker 2 it directs you. An example, I may have three different ideas that I'm excited about.
And I kind of get them all going.

Speaker 2 And then one of them just seems to take off on its own. And one of them, no matter how hard I work on it, it never seems to come together.
Can't find the right collaborators.

Speaker 2 Impossible, some obstacles in the way. When that happens, I feel like it's the universe saying now is not the time.
Interesting. Because, you know,

Speaker 2 I love this. And I also hear the other side of the, I guess, the coin where, you know, I don't know if you know Ryan Holiday, actually,

Speaker 2 the obstacle is the way is his kind of stoic philosophy of like, when the obstacle is there and presents itself and you also feel like this is something you want to do, like you've got to kind of go through that pain and then overcome it.

Speaker 2 That is part of it. I'm not saying to turn away from the obstacle,

Speaker 2 but I'm saying when the obstacles become insurmountable consistently and there's another path that's going smoothly and you feel the same about both of them, you know, I go over the effortless way.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Well, pay attention.
See

Speaker 2 when is the universe giving you a push?

Speaker 2 When is the wind hitting your sails the right way? There's something to it.

Speaker 2 I would never suggest not fighting through the work.

Speaker 2 It's grueling no matter what. It's grueling no matter what.
That said, sometimes

Speaker 2 it feels like

Speaker 2 now's not the time.

Speaker 2 It's like

Speaker 2 everything you throw at it gets deflected. Right.
But this other thing is guiding you,

Speaker 2 taking on its own life. Earlier you asked about what I perceive to be a shortcut.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 a shortcut is

Speaker 2 how little can I get away with doing?

Speaker 2 And I think that the real question is,

Speaker 2 how much more can I give to the thing I'm making?

Speaker 2 What else can I give to it?

Speaker 2 And thinking in terms of how much more can we do?

Speaker 2 Not how much less can we do. It's not about shortcuts.
It's not about getting it done. You know, it's not about a four-hour work week.
I loved him.

Speaker 2 You know, I loved it. But that's not,

Speaker 2 it's like whatever it takes for it to be all it could be.

Speaker 2 Commitment.

Speaker 2 and total commitment and dedicating your life to making the best things you can, whatever it is. Yeah.

Speaker 2 That's beautiful, man.

Speaker 2 And so do you, so you think that as artists, we should be thinking about manifesting, but not in the terms of doing less, but putting the maximum into making it great.

Speaker 2 Doing anything that's within our power.

Speaker 2 If it

Speaker 2 doesn't have to make sense.

Speaker 2 Nothing has to make sense. you know it could be when i wear these purple socks i can write a better song great

Speaker 2 doesn't matter

Speaker 2 don't question it

Speaker 2 just do whatever works do it

Speaker 2 is it really art if you're making money off of it

Speaker 2 absolutely it doesn't it doesn't matter the the out it's not about the outcome that's what i'm saying like you if you don't make money or if you do make money that has nothing to do with the art art is the art and then whatever happens after happens after.

Speaker 2 If you make something that you love, I know if I make something I love,

Speaker 2 if more people like it, that's only a good thing. Now, I wouldn't change a word of it for someone else to like it.

Speaker 2 Do you know what I'm saying? It's like I make the thing I love

Speaker 2 and then

Speaker 2 present it to the world. And then if the world likes it, great.
And if more people like it than less, better. Why not? We're sharing something we love, something we think is beautiful.

Speaker 2 So the more people who embrace it, but again, I would never change it for anyone else because that's not what it's about. It's not about that.

Speaker 2 With the artists you've worked with that you knew before they were global successes or their art, their music or, you know, was known by many.

Speaker 2 What did you see became their biggest challenge once they became extremely successful? Because a lot of artists, I would think, want their art to be liked and listened to by people.

Speaker 2 They want to make a living and more people like it. Typically, that's a good thing, typically.

Speaker 2 But sometimes we see artists who have this incredible rise of success and then seem to struggle with whether, whatever, depression, anxiety. Maybe the pressure.
Can I do this again?

Speaker 2 Will I be able to have these many hits again? What is the biggest challenge you see with artists becoming successful? Probably the biggest one is

Speaker 2 nobody prepares you for success. And you may have a dream of what it's like.

Speaker 2 And you may think the success is going to fill some hole you have in your soul.

Speaker 2 And then the success, and you work your whole life for the success that's going to fill the hole. And finally, you get get the success and the hole's the same.

Speaker 2 And it's,

Speaker 2 it creates hopelessness. Wow.

Speaker 2 Because you always, you're working towards this goal that's going to fix the problem.

Speaker 2 But it's, the goal doesn't fix the problem. It,

Speaker 2 I would say,

Speaker 2 I can't, I can't. I can't say never, but I would say almost never fixes the

Speaker 2 What fixes the problem for people?

Speaker 2 It's something else.

Speaker 2 It's something inside themselves.

Speaker 2 It's something inside themselves.

Speaker 2 So do you think success can almost hurt someone more than before they have it, after they have it?

Speaker 2 It just depends on the person's temperament. And, you know, for some people, being famous is the greatest thing.
It's all they ever wanted. And for some people,

Speaker 2 they become famous and it's the worst nightmare. That's not what they wanted.
They miss their privacy. They miss their anonymity.

Speaker 2 They miss being able to go and do whatever they want and not be singled out or pointed to

Speaker 2 or talked to. Or even if people are nice, like it's a different, it's different.

Speaker 2 And no one teaches you how to do that. Or you want to, you know, go do something with your family.
And then.

Speaker 2 There are photographers there. And it's very awkward.

Speaker 2 What advice do you have for people that want to be famous? You know, success is one thing, but fame is another thing and they don't always happen together.

Speaker 2 For someone that wants to be famous, what advice would you have for them? I don't know. I would say I would look at why that is.
I would maybe see, you know, consider therapy.

Speaker 2 Have you ever done therapy yourself? I've done, yeah, I've done all kinds of therapy. What has been the biggest lesson you learned through therapy for you?

Speaker 2 I learned how to express my feelings clearly. Like

Speaker 2 the first time I went to therapy, I didn't even know how to talk. I didn't know how I felt about anything.
How old were you then?

Speaker 2 Maybe 26.

Speaker 2 So you learned how to express your feelings then. Yes.

Speaker 2 And to not only, yes, express them, but also to actually, you know, feel them in myself to understand, not just feel like blocked off or frustrated or like what's beneath it, what's actually going on.

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Speaker 2 And what is the biggest lesson that meditation or meditation practices has provided for you?

Speaker 2 It provides a quiet space

Speaker 2 where the chatter,

Speaker 2 you realize that your thoughts are not you

Speaker 2 and that

Speaker 2 left to your own devices, there'll be

Speaker 2 a lot of voices in your head just going all the time. And they're not you.

Speaker 2 And they don't mean anything. And they're really repetitious.
And they're not working in your best interest.

Speaker 2 So if your thoughts aren't you, then what are you?

Speaker 2 I suppose you are the unchanging part of yourself

Speaker 2 that's always there

Speaker 2 from...

Speaker 2 Probably from the time you're born till the time you die and maybe before and after.

Speaker 2 It's the...

Speaker 2 It's what's really inside. It's not.

Speaker 2 It's not changeable.

Speaker 2 It's

Speaker 2 what you came with.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 it's not the

Speaker 2 thinking mind.

Speaker 2 It's almost being the observer of the thoughts.

Speaker 2 The one who sees the thoughts. That sounds right.
Yeah. Observing thoughts.
Thank you. Yeah.
That's what I was hearing you say.

Speaker 2 When do you feel the most loved, Rick?

Speaker 2 I would say in general, I feel loved. It's a good feeling.
Like

Speaker 2 I feel spiritually connected, and

Speaker 2 that gives me a great feeling of peace. Where do you think you'd be in your life if you weren't a meditator?

Speaker 2 And where do you think you'd be if you allowed yourself to play with

Speaker 2 drugs and alcohol?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I can't really predict. I would say meditation, without meditation, I don't know who I would be.
It's such a big part of who I am.

Speaker 2 Informed so many

Speaker 2 everything.

Speaker 2 My understanding of the world is based on learning to meditate when I was young. So I don't know who I would be without that.

Speaker 2 Do you think you would have as much internal harmony and peace and external success without meditation? No, certainly not internal peace. I don't know about success point.

Speaker 2 I wanted to ask you a question about comparison.

Speaker 2 You know, you mentioned the NBA basketball player needing to post more on social media based on what their team or the coaches, or maybe not the coaches, but maybe the general managers wanted them to do.

Speaker 2 With artists, I see a lot of people

Speaker 2 competing

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 being in comparison versus just sharing their truths in an authentic way.

Speaker 2 And sometimes on social media, people are vulnerable because it gets attention and then they're over vulnerable and then that becomes a game in itself.

Speaker 2 But in a world where everything is oversaturated seeming, And there is a lot of competition for attention.

Speaker 2 How can an artist stay true to their inner voice and not be in comparison, but be willing to collaborate and also see success in others and be okay with it? Yeah,

Speaker 2 I think staying out of it, you know, like not participating in that game,

Speaker 2 it's someone else's game. That's someone else's game.
I would suggest play your own game. I can remember having a conversation with a...

Speaker 2 one of the biggest artists in the world who described an album that they were going to make. And

Speaker 2 I had just seen them play in a stadium full of people screaming and crying.

Speaker 2 And it was not Paul McCartney.

Speaker 2 And the album that they were describing was one that none of those 70,000 people screaming and crying wanted to hear.

Speaker 2 It was clear to me.

Speaker 2 And I remember saying,

Speaker 2 That's not your hand. Like you play, when you're playing poker,

Speaker 2 it's not, you can't just play any cards.

Speaker 2 You play your hand based on the cards you've been dealt. So depending on the artist you are,

Speaker 2 like

Speaker 2 it'd be like there was a time, I think, when Metallica felt like we don't really want to be a heavy metal band. We want to be a pop band because pop bands were what's popular.

Speaker 2 And we have reached a ceiling being a heavy metal band. That did not go well.
That was a bad idea.

Speaker 2 They weren't playing their hand.

Speaker 2 They weren't embracing Metallica.

Speaker 2 And I think if you embrace your part,

Speaker 2 it's your best chance.

Speaker 2 Being true to yourself, not seeing, oh, well, those people over there are getting popular doing this other thing. I don't really like it, but it's really working for them.
Maybe I could try that.

Speaker 2 Recipe for disaster. So don't chase something that's not your hand.
No.

Speaker 2 But it sounds like, correct me if I'm wrong, you know,

Speaker 2 the example I'm thinking of is like Lady Gaga came onto the scene doing, I guess, pop music and became very popular, but then said, hey, I want to do this more kind of jazzy, bluesy, like Tony Bennett thing.

Speaker 2 She was being true to herself. And that's what I want to do.
And I don't care if anyone likes it. Perfect.
But it's what I want to do at this season of my life. True to herself.
And it may lose money.

Speaker 2 But she was not doing it because I think people will like this.

Speaker 2 This is working over here, so I'm going to try to catch their heat. She was not doing that.
She probably knew people wouldn't like it. Only a small.

Speaker 2 Yeah, she knew that. She didn't care.
That was true to herself. This is what she wanted to do, and she did it.
Wow. Were you in touch with her at all during that season?

Speaker 2 I can't remember if we talked in that.

Speaker 2 I'm curious, but that's I'm curious if she's just said, hey, I'm going to do this and this is my thing.

Speaker 2 For sure. That's pretty cool.
Yeah, yeah. No, I love it when an artist does something unexpected, whether it works or not.
You know, it's like it's they're being true to themselves, right?

Speaker 2 They get to be a better artist doing that. Whereas the other example is someone, you know, whether it's Metallica or whoever is like chasing a bigger audience or something.

Speaker 2 Now, if that's true to them, that music, then cool, there's an audience there, go for it. Absolutely.
Yeah. But there's also something about staying true to yourself in terms of

Speaker 2 if you come up making a certain kind of music and you get popular making that music,

Speaker 2 a feeling of, well, this is all anybody wants from me. So even though I don't care about it anymore, I have to keep doing it.
That's a disaster as well. Right.

Speaker 2 That doesn't work.

Speaker 2 Who has been

Speaker 2 the most musically gifted artist that you've been able to work with? Or maybe a few people that you're just like, they were so musically talented and gifted. It was just.

Speaker 2 There have been a lot.

Speaker 2 There have been a lot. I can say the first time I was in the studio with Carlos Santana and he started playing guitar, it felt like this is coming from another planet.

Speaker 2 Or John Frascianti, when he plays from the guitarist and the Red Hot Chili Peppers, when he plays guitar, it's a transcendent experience.

Speaker 2 Spiritual. Yeah.
And there's a drummer named Chris Dave who's best drummer I've ever heard. And no matter what he plays, anything he plays is the greatest thing you've ever heard, the simplest thing.

Speaker 2 He can make anything interesting just the way he plays it. Not the parts.
It doesn't have to be complicated. It doesn't have to be look at me.
Just the touch, the feel, the tone is miraculous.

Speaker 2 Something you said before is the only goal is to be the best version of ourselves.

Speaker 2 Is there anything blocking you from becoming the best version of yourself moving forward?

Speaker 2 I don't think so.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I wouldn't say I'm there, but I'm always striving, always.

Speaker 2 Anything I can do to get closer, I'll do.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you're willing to learn something new, you're willing to try something on, or change anything. Right.

Speaker 2 What do you think is the best habits that an artist can have that maybe you have individually, but also that you see in other artists?

Speaker 2 I would say dedication to the craft,

Speaker 2 whatever their craft is, dedicating themselves to it, taking it very seriously, and

Speaker 2 being free to play in it, you know, like taking it seriously

Speaker 2 at the time when it warrants being taken seriously and having fun and being free in a play way

Speaker 2 to allow the thing that's worthy of being taken seriously to appear. Right, right.

Speaker 2 Taking it seriously and also allowing yourself to play in it as well. Yeah.
Well, the play always is where it starts. It starts in this playful way where nothing is serious and there are no stakes.

Speaker 2 And then through that, something appears.

Speaker 2 And then in order to get that into condition to share, there's a grueling effort. Yeah.
Take that seriously.

Speaker 2 And sometimes it's, sometimes you do a grueling effort and then you realize, oh, that thing that happened the first day, that's the best version of it. But you don't know that until you've maybe...

Speaker 2 banged your head against the wall for six months working on it and then you realize you know what that first five minutes was the best that was it you can't know that until you go past you know you have to work past it to see

Speaker 2 this was the one this is the best version how often is it the first version is usually the best for you um i'll say the first version is often if it's not the best it's very instructive and holds a magic in it that is to be retained no matter what else changes You know, a big part of it is just not screwing up what's good.

Speaker 2 Not messing it up. No, there are all these stories of, you know, the demos being better than the album.
It's easy to not know why something is good.

Speaker 2 You know, you make a demo and you think, okay, now when I get the professional musicians to play it, it's going to be great. It's going to be that much better.
Maybe yes, maybe no. We don't know.

Speaker 2 We never know. We never know what's going to happen when we do anything.

Speaker 2 So to stay neutral. and to keep every iteration along the way and be willing to look back after you just just spent months refining something to then say, you know what?

Speaker 2 It was better three months ago. Throw that all away.
Wow. The Creative Act, a way of being.
This is a powerful book.

Speaker 2 I think it's been on the New York Times bestseller list for 42 plus weeks in a row, I believe, right now.

Speaker 2 This has been a game changer for so many different creatives, artists, and also people that don't think they're artists who have been buying this and tapping into their creativity, allowing themselves to express themselves more fully, more openly, more freely, more honestly and vulnerably.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I want to recommend this to anyone watching or listening to get a copy or two and give one to a friend.

Speaker 2 Really think about who in your life do you know has great talent, great artistry, or untapped talent that they should be expressing that more and giving that gift to God and to the universe, as you say so beautifully.

Speaker 2 Again, think about who in your life needs this book. There's so many great.

Speaker 2 The thing I love about it is it's, you know, it's a bigger book, but every chapter is short. You know, and for me, I like short

Speaker 2 bits of wisdom that I can just open up at any time and read a few paragraphs, and I've got something. Open it randomly and read something.
Let's see what comes up.

Speaker 2 This is the first thing here. I don't even have this earmarked, but I've got a lot of it earmarked.
This says, in the end,

Speaker 2 the sum total of the essence of our individual works may serve as a reflection.

Speaker 2 The closer we get to the true essence of each work, the sooner they will somehow, at some point in time, provide clues as to our own.

Speaker 2 That was the first thing that opened up for me. That's cool.

Speaker 2 It's page

Speaker 2 245. So make sure you guys check that out.
But there's, I love the whole section on

Speaker 2 you've got sections on greatness, you got a success, you got about listening, you know, inspiration. You talk about inspiration, it appears in a moment.

Speaker 2 And what defines inspiration is the quality and quantity of the download at a speed so instantaneous, it seems impossible to process. Inspiration is the rocket fuel powering our work.

Speaker 2 It is a universal conversation we yearn to be a part of. And I think that's really cool.
Because so many of us are chasing inspiration, but a lot of times it comes to us, right? It comes.

Speaker 2 And it's almost like getting out of the way and allowing for it to come in. That's why I love in the docuseries that you're part of, Shangri-La.

Speaker 2 It's like you have an intentional energy of your environment. You create a space for it to come.
And I think that's really cool. And a lot of people aren't,

Speaker 2 I think, thinking about their environment of spatial surroundings, their environment of people surroundings, their environment of what they consume of music or visual content or what they're reading.

Speaker 2 They're not intentional with it as much as I think they could be, which you're extremely intentional to allow for inspiration to come. Isn't that right? Yeah, we're all

Speaker 2 we are is made up of everything we take in.

Speaker 2 So the places we're in, the people we're around,

Speaker 2 the

Speaker 2 media we consume, that's all we are. So

Speaker 2 really curate what comes in for

Speaker 2 your highest good. Yeah.
And in the Shangri La, the docu series, you know, in your recording studio and in your facility, it's all white.

Speaker 2 You know, there's no TVs, there's no clocks, the floor is white, the walls are white. You have this space that is kind of like this void.

Speaker 2 You know, when I think of meditation, I really try to think about being no one, no thing, nowhere, no time,

Speaker 2 so that inspiration can come to me as opposed to having the noise constantly distracting me or influencing me to think something. And so you create a white blank canvas for people to express

Speaker 2 and develop their art. And I think it's really beautiful.

Speaker 2 I mean, you guys paint the floors like after someone comes in and does their work, you repaint the floor so that it's not dirty from the last artists. of the past.

Speaker 2 You create a blank canvas every time an artist comes in, which is just so cool to think about.

Speaker 2 And I love the intentionality behind how you allow for space to be evolved for people to draw inspiration. It's really, really cool.

Speaker 2 I want people to watch that docuseries called The Shangri Law, but also, again, get a copy of this book, The Creative Act, A Way of Being. I've got three final questions for you, Rick.

Speaker 2 And again, I'm so grateful for your time here and for showing up and just being...

Speaker 2 being an inspiration to so many people and specifically in this interview right now. This is a question I ask everyone towards the end of our conversations.
It's called the three truths.

Speaker 2 So it's a hypothetical question and scenario. Imagine you get to, you know, Laird and Gabby continue to keep you fit and healthy, and you get to extend your life as long as you want to be.

Speaker 2 But eventually it's the last day. You can live as long as you want, but it's the last day for you in the future.
And you get to create.

Speaker 2 and learn and experience all the things you want to experience from now at 60 to till that moment.

Speaker 2 Um, but for whatever reason, it's your last day, and you have to take everything with you. Everything you've created, everything you've worked on, everything you've written, everything you've spoken.

Speaker 2 We don't have access to it in this world anymore. Hypothetical scenario, but you get to leave behind three lessons, and this is all we would have to remember your information by.

Speaker 2 And I call it the three truths. What would be those three truths for you that you would leave behind?

Speaker 2 I think it might just be one. It might just be

Speaker 2 be true to yourself.

Speaker 2 Know yourself as best as you can to be true to who you are and allow that person

Speaker 2 to evolve and change

Speaker 2 as the conditions change and to not be inflexible.

Speaker 2 I love that. I want to acknowledge you, Rick, for, I mean, putting this out there.

Speaker 2 I heard you talk about being kind of like a grueling process and some challenges here and there, some friction, some obstacles to get it out there. It wasn't like this effortless thing.

Speaker 2 And I'm assuming it might have been harder than an album putting an album out there.

Speaker 2 I want to acknowledge you for...

Speaker 2 sharing your gift with the universe and with all of us, sharing your greatness with so many people, because you have, you know, a lifetime of wisdom and information and lessons.

Speaker 2 And to put it together in this way so that we can understand it is really powerful.

Speaker 2 So I acknowledge you for creating this work of art, for coming on the show and talking so openly and honestly the way you have been. And I've seen you on a lot of my friends' shows as well.

Speaker 2 And for being an inspiration to so many people. People value you.
They appreciate you. They respect you.

Speaker 2 And I hope you feel the love from so many people. And I just wanted to acknowledge you personally for that.

Speaker 2 This question, you kind of answered it already, but I'm going to ask you again and see what comes up for you.

Speaker 2 What is your definition of greatness?

Speaker 2 Greatness is

Speaker 2 what you make in a devotional act

Speaker 2 for

Speaker 2 a higher power beyond any worldly ideas of success.

Speaker 2 I hope today's episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today's show with all the important links.

Speaker 2 And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me as well as ad-free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel on Apple Podcast.

Speaker 2 If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend. Leave us a review over on Apple Podcast and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels.

Speaker 2 at Lewis House. I really love hearing the feedback from you and it helps us continue to make the show better.

Speaker 2 And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the greatness newsletter and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com/slash newsletter.

Speaker 2 And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

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