Former Secret Service Agent Reveals How to Read Anyone

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Speaker 7 All people lie. The research varies.
Some research says some people will lie 10 times within a conversation. Sometimes with people that we know very well, we can see it.

Speaker 7 Because sometimes you'll have people say, well, I was married to someone or I was close to someone and I didn't see it. And because we're invested in that person, we want to believe the lie.

Speaker 7 A former Secret Service agent who's mastered the art art of people reading using these skills to help build trust and detect lies in your own relationships every purporus what are the social cues or psychological behaviors to know whether they're actually telling the truth it could be a very subtle thing or you might not give me anything and actually the number one way people lie

Speaker 4 I'm curious, if I would have had the secrets growing up on how to lie better, where I didn't get caught, What would I need to have done better?

Speaker 4 Because I got caught a lot lying to my dad and my mom all the time. What would I have needed to do better? Or should I just not try to ever lie and just be completely honest and not worry about it?

Speaker 7 I think some lying to some degree is healthy. Really?

Speaker 7 Well, if somebody's calling you and you don't want to answer the phone and they're a very taxing person or emotionally, you know, those emotional vampires are just someone that's not unhealthy for you.

Speaker 7 Voicemail. Sorry.
I was busy. I think in some situations it's okay um but as far as like lying it's interesting you say that because we would

Speaker 7 to become a special agent there was a polygraph that you would have to take and these things would come up as far as like do you steal do you cheat do you lie but often people were worried about telling the truth

Speaker 7 and what they do is they wouldn't tell the truth you know yes i stole yes i did this and they would hold it in they fail their polygraph or fail their that part of the interview and had they told the truth they probably would have been fine because it was more of an integrity thing.

Speaker 4 It's more like tell the truth and not pass the test, but at least you're telling the truth.

Speaker 7 It'll pass the test if you tell the truth. Here's the thing.
It's like the thought process is if you're going to lie about this, a polygraph, you know, then you're going to lie about everything.

Speaker 7 Oh, right.

Speaker 7 And so it's a big part of the job is trust because you get so much power, so much authority. You're around the president of the United States.

Speaker 7 You're really around, you know, secret environments, so to speak. And so they really need to know that you can just be dropped anywhere and it's okay.
So it's really about the integrity of it.

Speaker 4 How many polygraph tests did you take to study doing this process as an agent?

Speaker 7 I didn't take a lot, but I had to take them and then pass them myself. Because you have to get in.
So I would be polygraphed. Are you about my background?

Speaker 7 And I can't get into the details I'm kind of filtering now in my head. But basically, are you trustworthy?

Speaker 7 Are you looking to cause harm um have i convicted any felonies that i've not shared drugs tended to be a big disqualifier for a lot of folks drugs have you done drugs or have you been drug use or drug experimentation so they would allow

Speaker 7 hey when you were 16 if you did it for a few months they allow they have criteria i think today it's a lot more lenient when i went in it was extremely strict but i think what they found is like we can't we can't find people everyone's tried something right We can't find people.

Speaker 7 Everybody's failing the, you know, the exam. And, you know, and there's this understanding of that when people are young, they make mistakes.

Speaker 7 And it's, you know, should something that you did when you were 16, 17, 18, 19, and now you're 30 preclude you from getting a job somewhere else.

Speaker 7 So there has to be a little bit of that logic in there where, you know, when it was a bit so severe, but I think there is a lot more experimentation today.

Speaker 7 But as far as your first question about your parents, I think that they just knew you well.

Speaker 7 And so they knew.

Speaker 4 You can just feel it. I'm just like, no, I didn't do it.

Speaker 7 Well, they know you, so they know your tells, they know your demeanor, they know how you shift when you do lie.

Speaker 7 And so sometimes with people that we know very well, we can see it.

Speaker 7 They're probably very intuitive to you. They probably also didn't want to believe your lies.

Speaker 7 Because sometimes you'll have people say, well, I was married to someone or I was close to someone and I didn't see it. And sometimes we intuitively see it.

Speaker 7 We know it's there, but we ignore it. And so we'll listen to somebody's excuses or explanations.

Speaker 7 And because we're invested in that person and we want to believe in that person, we want to believe the lie. And so sometimes that's what happens when we get caught up in something.

Speaker 7 And then you look back, you're like, I saw this, I saw that, and all those nickels will start dropping.

Speaker 7 Because, but when you're invested in someone, you want to believe in them. You want to believe when they tell you, oh, no, no, no, I was actually doing this.

Speaker 7 Because it's not to your benefit. It's to your benefit to believe what they tell you.

Speaker 4 Do we all lie? All human beings? And is it okay to lie?

Speaker 7 All people lie. The research varies.
Some research says some people will lie 10 times within a conversation.

Speaker 4 10 times? Like in one sentence, or

Speaker 4 in a 30-minute conversation.

Speaker 7 Hi, how are you? I'm great. How are you? Meanwhile, I just

Speaker 7 had a fight with my significant other. So that would be a lie.
Then also, lying by omission is a big thing. People think that

Speaker 7 I have to say the lie for it to be a lie. But I can tell you a story and leave something out

Speaker 7 that changes the context of the story. So now the story is not accurate.
I mislead you. That is a lie.
And actually, the number one way people lie is by omission.

Speaker 7 Because most people don't like to lie. They're not comfortable with it.
You know, it's not natural to us. It's work.

Speaker 7 It's a lot of work. It's very hard.

Speaker 4 Because you got to remember what you said, too, right?

Speaker 7 You got to remember it. You have to stick to it because you may have to repeat that lie again later in time.

Speaker 7 And it really is a credibility killer. It's just not worth doing.
And so it's a lot of work to do cognitively. So it is actually easier to leave something out.
I don't feel as bad.

Speaker 7 And then when you ask me, Lewis, I say, oh, you know, I forgot to tell you that part.

Speaker 4 And then you lose credibility.

Speaker 7 If I lie like that, I may not lose as much. Gotcha.
It's when people outright lie. And then, so you probably did some outright lies.

Speaker 4 Did you do this? Yes or no? No, I didn't do it.

Speaker 7 Or how about this? No, I didn't do it.

Speaker 6 No.

Speaker 7 That's like one of the indicators when people say their body

Speaker 7 doesn't match what they say. So they'll say no, yes.

Speaker 7 And so you'll see the body will do this, like the body's in conflict with what they're seeing. It doesn't happen to everybody.
It's everybody, everyone is so unique and so different. And I think

Speaker 7 what popular culture likes to do is say, everybody will do this. Everybody will do that.
And that's just, it's false. And there's no easy way to read people.
It's work.

Speaker 7 It's studying the person, understanding human behavior, knowing that person,

Speaker 7 paying attention to their mannerisms. So, like when I speak,

Speaker 7 I use illustrators when I speak. So, if I'm telling you a story, I went here last night, I did this, I saw that.
Now, you ask me something, you know, Evie, is this your favorite podcast? Which it is.

Speaker 6 I don't know, right?

Speaker 7 But I start, you know, I put my hands down and I change my mannerisms. Now, I'm stoic, I'm not moving.

Speaker 7 In fact, people who do lie tend to move less, actually, because I'm working. I'm working, this is work.

Speaker 7 So I'm not, I'm thinking, I'm focused. So there's all those indicators that do help you kind of filter out what's going on with the other person.

Speaker 4 So using body language and being more expressive hides the lie if you are lying.

Speaker 7 If you're usually not all, like I want to be, you know, because some people that don't use a lot of maneuvers, they're always stoic. Sure, sure, sure.
And so that's just what they are all the time.

Speaker 7 But if you have someone who is illustrative, who's always talking with their hands, and now you ask them a question that they're uncomfortable with or they want to lie to you about, you'll see less movement in the body.

Speaker 4 What would be three questions if you could only ask three questions to a human being to figure out if they're telling a lie or telling the truth?

Speaker 4 How would you start those three questions? What would they be?

Speaker 7 Ted,

Speaker 6 T-E-D,

Speaker 7 tell me, explain, describe. And then I would fill in the rest.

Speaker 4 Tell me.

Speaker 7 Tell me what you did last night, rather than who did you out with last night or were you with Sam last night? So tell me what you did last night.

Speaker 7 Explain to me how important this relationship is to you. Describe to me what you want in this business partnership.

Speaker 7 Those questions allow people to tell a story. So if you really want to read someone out, read somebody, you want them to tell you a story.

Speaker 7 So the more I can get you to tell me a story, I hear you, I'm watching you, I'm getting your mannerisms down, everything, but then you're also telling me what is important to you, what is of value to you.

Speaker 7 And then when you do that now, I don't have to sit there and guess and figure out, oh, how should I start my business pitch with Lewis? You already told me the things you like.

Speaker 7 And so I can come in and speak to you in an intelligent way rather than trying to guess what. you know, what to say.

Speaker 7 So ideally, when you start a conversation, and this could be for anything, it's not just catching a lie, this is really just trying to start a conversation. Ted, T-E-D, tell me, explain, describe.

Speaker 7 You start big,

Speaker 7 you get people talking and telling you stuff, even though you're like, I want to know this specific thing. But if I ask this specific thing, this person's going to shut down on me.

Speaker 7 So, I can't go straight for that. So, what you do is you narrow it.
You get closer, you go from vague to more

Speaker 7 accurate to more accurate. To then, in the end, you get to that direct question because you've worked them to that point so for example

Speaker 7 if you had a case where somebody was murdered or killed right and you had a suspect you wouldn't say did you kill her

Speaker 7 you would never say that in fact that would you wouldn't get there till like maybe two hours into the conversation that's like that you you you get there it's over time

Speaker 7 because it's it's it's a serious thing it's an ugly word and you know i might not even say, did you kill her?

Speaker 6 Did you hurt her?

Speaker 7 Did you harm her? Did something happen? And I would get you, so I would never ask it that way.

Speaker 7 You get the person to give you admissions. Like, for example, yes, I was there.
I was at the house. Or yes, I did this.
You know, you want them to give you a little bit.

Speaker 7 And then eventually you get more admissions, more admissions.

Speaker 7 You start to paint a picture. And then you never actually have to ask them,

Speaker 6 did you kill?

Speaker 7 They eventually tell you.

Speaker 4 So you were at the scene, you were there at the same time, you were holding the knife.

Speaker 7 They tell you all of it. But

Speaker 7 you walk them through that process. And so when you watch these TV shows or when you ask somebody a direct question and you want a direct answer and you don't get it, this is why.
It's work.

Speaker 7 It's a lot of work to connect with people, read people. And I think that's why, and I think society makes it seem like do these three tricks and you'll have people eating out of your hand.
And

Speaker 7 it doesn't work. It's not true.
And this is why people struggle because they're looking for the easy way when it's really about human behavior.

Speaker 7 The person across from you, like understanding them, being curious. Curiosity is wonderful.

Speaker 7 So let them tell you stuff, ask questions because you're curious, and then you'll get more information rather than trying to go for like exactly what you want to know.

Speaker 7 And then the other thing too that helps with conversations is something called adaptability,

Speaker 7 which a lot of people don't have. Like, if I have a

Speaker 7 conversation with you and I specifically want to know one thing,

Speaker 7 but you want to tell me a whole other story around it, people don't have the patience. And so like, no, no, no, no, no, we're talking about something else.
Like, stick to the topic.

Speaker 7 And when you do that, you, you break a rapport, you hurt the conversation. So a part of it is being patient.
Let them take you a little bit on a journey.

Speaker 7 And then slowly you can bring them back to where you want. But sometimes we come in so rigid, no, no, I have to talk about this.

Speaker 7 This is the topic, and you're not able to adapt. So adaptability is being, is allowing a person to take you where they want to go, letting somebody sit in the driver's seat

Speaker 7 for a little bit.

Speaker 4 So you're telling me when my girlfriend is arguing with me about one thing, but then doesn't want to address it and takes it around the

Speaker 4 playground of all these other conversations,

Speaker 4 I get to listen to all those things to get it back to where I want to go to. Perhaps.
As opposed to say, baby, let's just focus on the problem right here.

Speaker 7 Well, it sounds actually like your girlfriend is actually more of an identity-based person.

Speaker 7 Okay, so there's instructional, there's identity. So

Speaker 7 if I'm talking to you and I want to tell you, you know, you want to tell me basically, Evie, if you stop talking to this person, your life will be easier, right?

Speaker 7 You know, cut this person out of your life, right? And I'm like, no, I want to tell you how I feel.

Speaker 7 No, this makes me feel this way this makes me feel that way but you don't know and you're just kind of like all you have to do is cut them out of your life cut this person out of your life or all you have to do is this one thing problem solved

Speaker 7 you are instructional let's just get to the point what do we got to do to fix it one two three done

Speaker 7 identity is i don't want to hear that i want to take you on the journey with me to tell you how i feel this person or when we are in that space this this means this person just wants to tell you how they're feeling they want to tell you about their identity.

Speaker 7 What's happening is about their identity. So they don't want, she doesn't want your solution.

Speaker 7 She doesn't want you to tell you what to do. She wants you to listen to her.

Speaker 7 And so just, it's not even about solving it.

Speaker 7 And so I think that's another place where we get stuck. We're like, here, here's a solution.
And it's like, no, no, I don't want that.

Speaker 7 And you're like, but you're telling me you have this problem if you just do this. You're instructional, their identity.
What are you? I'm typically instructional.

Speaker 7 I'm I'm very like, just tell me what I need to know. I don't need to go through the circle.
But when I speak to other people

Speaker 7 and I realize that their identity or in that moment, they want to tell me this whole story. And I'm just like, dude, all we got to talk about is one little thing, problem solved.
I let them go.

Speaker 6 Wow.

Speaker 7 If you have the patience. It depends what the topic is, but she's identity-based.
So I think.

Speaker 7 Every time you talk with her, if you see that she's like not wanting to get to the point and figure out the solution where she just wants to tell you about her feelings, how this makes her feel, or how this hurts her, or

Speaker 7 if it's about her, her identity, then that's what she's doing. It's not about the solution.

Speaker 4 Whether you were in the Secret Service doing an interview or an interrogation or in the real world now, I guess that is the real world, but after now,

Speaker 4 what are the social cues or psychological behaviors,

Speaker 4 body language,

Speaker 4 responses that people have before you take the polygraph test to know whether or not they're actually telling the truth. What are those few things that you would see?

Speaker 4 We talked about the body language. Are there other things that would happen, social cues or behaviors?

Speaker 7 This is interesting. Everybody would assume that the polygraph was

Speaker 7 the lie detector. Like you just ask the question, come on in, have a seat, Lewis.
Let's hook you up. Did you steal when you were a kid? You know, did you steal that gum or did you steal that?

Speaker 7 And then it just tells me everything.

Speaker 7 And it doesn't really work that way. Like, typically, the lie detector is the person.
So you sit across from a person, you have a conversation.

Speaker 7 And as we're discussing something, let's say you're applying to the U.S. Secret Service.
We'll make you a record.

Speaker 4 Okay, give it to me.

Speaker 7 And so we're asking you all these questions about your education, your background,

Speaker 7 drugs, whatever it is. And let's say we get to, I say to you, Lewis, did you ever steal anything?

Speaker 7 And so now I look at,

Speaker 7 are there any shifts? Are there any changes? Do you change the direction we should?

Speaker 7 People are usually not that obvious, you know, they're, but you can see, you can see something, you can feel it. It's also feeling people.

Speaker 7 I think that gets dismissed quite a bit, that it's not just see, hear, you know, it's like, it's also you can feel another human being.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 7 You can. And it's intuitive and we should allow that and listen to that more rather than shut that down.
But it would be, you know, if I would ask you that, I would hear the way you responded.

Speaker 7 Did you respond similarly to all the other questions the same way? Is your, you know, let's say if I said, Lewis, did you ever,

Speaker 7 you know, I asked you all these other historical questions and you're like, no, no, no. And then I say, Lewis, did you, have you ever stolen anything? Absolutely not.

Speaker 7 So now something like that, as small as that, I may mark that. I was like, okay, he said no, no, no for everything else.
But here he said absolutely not. Interesting.
Why is it a bit more emphatic?

Speaker 4 He cares more about either protecting something or that it actually isn't the truth. And he doesn't want that to be out of the way.

Speaker 7 But I will notice that it's different.

Speaker 7 That you did something different, even if you

Speaker 7 now.

Speaker 7 It could be a very subtle thing. Or you might not give me anything.
There's some people, and I've had those people, where it's just like

Speaker 4 poker face all the way through.

Speaker 7 Some people, but they'll,

Speaker 7 I don't want to say they're professional liars, but some people, you know, would come in, especially if it was a criminal case and they're guarding their, the truth really hard and you have to try to figure out what that is.

Speaker 7 Or some people come in and it's, I swear to God, God, God knows, I would never do such a thing.

Speaker 7 Those are usually red flags, unless it's a culture or a person who typically does it.

Speaker 7 If they always say, I swear to God, I swear to my mom, then it would be like, look, this is part of this person's natural language. Or maybe in their culture, they refer to God quite a bit.

Speaker 7 But if it's not, and then you start doing that, then again, that's a red flag. So that's what you're really looking for rather than we have some of these cookie cutter things.

Speaker 7 It's like, everybody does this, everybody does that. Now, are these things I'm talking about indicators? They are, but you may do them and I may not.
I may do something else.

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Speaker 7 what do you do when you lie what do i do when i lie we all lie at something right at we do i do i do small or big my husband's like did you, you know, have a donut this morning?

Speaker 3 No, I don't have a donut.

Speaker 4 What do you lie about the most?

Speaker 4 Professional or personal?

Speaker 4 And what in each category?

Speaker 7 Maybe like if I'm mad. Because

Speaker 7 I have a pretty bad temper. So it's like, oh, no, I'm fine.
You know, and I'll, because sometimes I'll know, I'm like, you know, I have a temper. And sometimes I know I'm being irrational.

Speaker 7 And I don't want to open up a whole conversation. So I'll just be like, no, I'm okay.
I'll leave it because I'll know it's me. I'm trying to think what do I I lie about

Speaker 7 maybe work if it's a project I don't want to do but usually that's what you have agents and managers for because they do it for you sure they shut it down for you um

Speaker 7 I'm trying to think I mean we all lie but I try to keep it like usually for me it's like because I'm like a you know I like donuts and I like things cookies

Speaker 7 so my husband's like a health fanatic so he'll be like how'd you eat today you know I was like oh this was okay i was i was pretty solid you know oh okay so he'll know what i'm trying to say is there's such a thing as person being radically honest all the time no i don't i've never i've not come across that but i think

Speaker 7 here's the thing it's okay to lie because

Speaker 7 have you ever been very very very honest maybe with a person and then felt afterward you know i don't you feel a bit exposed and you feel like you know i wish i didn't share this much with this person afterward you kind of have that remorse

Speaker 7 because we feel like it's a it's a protection mechanism I don't want to tell you everything about me I don't want to be an open book

Speaker 7 and so I may and it may not be a lie so by omission so in a meeting if somebody's pitching me a project or I'm talking about something I don't like it or I don't like the direction it's going I may not say I don't like this I may say thank you you know let me think about that meanwhile I want to say no way I'm I'm not doing it.

Speaker 7 That's terrible. So that technically would be a lie.
I'm like, you know what? Thank you and let me think about that.

Speaker 7 But I know I can't respond the first way. Shuts people down.
That's why I feel like we hear people say, say no. You know, being able to say no to people more so because a lot of us have.

Speaker 4 To protect your time, your space, energy.

Speaker 7 And that's wonderful. But don't say no.

Speaker 7 Find other ways to say no. No is ugly.
No is mean. No is hurtful.
So I can say, thank you so much. I'll let you know.

Speaker 7 I'm not really sure if I'm able to. Let me think on that.
Find alternative ways to let people down.

Speaker 4 Why is that?

Speaker 7 To preserve the relationship.

Speaker 4 Because when you say no to someone, even if it's a friend, they might take it personally.

Speaker 7 It stings. Right? Why are you saying no to me? Why do you have to say like that? You can say, you can reject people.
in a thoughtful way, in a professional way. And it just, it depends.

Speaker 7 Do you care about the relationship? And if you do, do your no

Speaker 7 your hard no can hurt people's feelings people become sensitive because you're rejecting them

Speaker 7 and so I'm gonna think of a different way to say no that's not gonna impact you as much it's really using language thoughtfully so for example you brought up lying I love that and you said you know when I was a kid I lied so I would never say to you

Speaker 7 Lewis you're a liar Or Lewis, no, Lewis, you're lying to me. I would say, Lewis, I know you're not being truthful with me.
Lewis, you're holding something back for me. Sounds different.

Speaker 7 So it's the same way with language.

Speaker 7 We throw our words out and we don't realize that they land on someone.

Speaker 7 And so then we scratch our heads wondering, why did this conversation not go well? It's this person's the problem when we don't have the ability to think about how did I deliver this.

Speaker 7 So if it's a business relationship that's important to you, but you want to say no to this, you want to think of a great way to say no.

Speaker 7 So we want to think about how do we let people down without hurting their identity.

Speaker 7 Going back to identity.

Speaker 4 Was there ever a time when you were interviewing or interrogating someone and you didn't believe them ever, but they were telling 100% the truth?

Speaker 7 Oh my God, you just reminded me of this case.

Speaker 4 You're just like, I know this person's lying to me, but at the end of the day, everything said was pretty true or almost 100% true.

Speaker 7 This was, this was, I've never, I had, it was such a simple case and it was even it was not even for a lot of money.

Speaker 7 It was an ATM scam This man was going to ATMs and he was taking stealing money Somebody would go in use their credit card. He'd come from behind take money very simple on the ATM

Speaker 4 with like a gun or something

Speaker 7 just follow them in there's these little skimmers that they put on top of the machine so when you scan your card that it would pick up your information as well and then you could go there's all these different scams so but when you go to the the ATM, there's a camera there.

Speaker 7 It's got your full picture. So I have a picture of this guy, my perpetrator.
It's a picture of him. I see him, his face.
He's wearing a hat. He's wearing a New York Knicks hat.

Speaker 7 And I was like, here's my guy. All right, you know, I've got it.
All I got to do is lay the picture on. So he shows up for his interview wearing the same New York Knicks hat.

Speaker 6 Wow.

Speaker 7 So I start speaking to him. I don't take out my evidence, right? Because I'm saving that.
Because

Speaker 7 slam dunk. I was like, and he didn't even steal a lot.
$500, it was something small. I don't know how it landed in my lap, but it did.
And, sir, you took the money. No, no, miss.

Speaker 7 I swear to God, I would never do that, sir. We have this.
So I'm doing this with him for like 15 minutes. And this was a mistake on my part.

Speaker 4 We have proof.

Speaker 7 We have, you know, video footage.

Speaker 6 I'm giving him everything.

Speaker 7 No, never me, never me. And I pull out, I think I'm being slick.
And I pull out my photo of him.

Speaker 7 Boom, right on the table.

Speaker 7 Who's that, sir?

Speaker 7 Right? And I'm sitting there, I'm all smug. I'm like, I got this guy.
And he takes it and he looks at it. He's like,

Speaker 7 looks like me.

Speaker 7 Yeah, he looks like me. He's not me.

Speaker 6 I was like, what?

Speaker 7 That's you. He's like, it looks like me.
That's not me.

Speaker 7 Same hat, New York Knicks hat, the guy shooting.

Speaker 7 Yeah, no. And it was a creative interview.
And I remember it was for money. It was not for a lot of money.
In fact,

Speaker 7 when it came to financial crimes, crimes that had to do with money, it was actually harder to get people to confess to those.

Speaker 6 Why?

Speaker 7 Less guilt.

Speaker 4 Less guilt. They didn't hurt someone physically.
Yes. They might have hurt them financially.

Speaker 7 Yes. I'm at home.
I'm sitting behind my computer. I'm in my fuzzy slippers.

Speaker 7 Or even if I'm doing it at the ATM, I'm not stealing from you. I'm stealing from the bank.

Speaker 7 But it's different when I walk by you and I actually put my hand in your pocket. It's different when I go into your home and I assault you.

Speaker 7 So

Speaker 7 there's that level of guilt. But when it's money, and especially if you steal it from an institution,

Speaker 7 zero guilt. Those were the hardest to get.
But yeah, that was my guy. I will never forget it.
That's why I started laughing. Was it him or was it not him?

Speaker 4 It was him.

Speaker 7 We arrested him anyway because we had the proof. But it's always great to get, it's always helpful to have a confession because it really just kind of seals everything.

Speaker 7 You've got the evidence, you've got this, the person said it.

Speaker 4 But he never agreed to it.

Speaker 6 No, no. He said, it looks like me, but it's not me.

Speaker 7 No, same New York's Nick hat. Yeah, I don't know.
I guess he's from New York. Who doesn't like the Knicks? He just nothing.
And you could see his face.

Speaker 7 Looks like me. I got nothing from him.

Speaker 4 Really? Yeah. So he never actually told the truth, but it was, in fact, him.

Speaker 7 It was him. I mean, we had evidence, we had prints, we had all that stuff.
But yeah, no, he, he, you know, to the end. No, not me.

Speaker 4 Could you tell?

Speaker 6 Like. I couldn't tell.

Speaker 4 You couldn't tell he was lying or not?

Speaker 7 I couldn't tell. No, he was so believable.

Speaker 7 But I knew going in that he was my guy. Right.
So that's why I was like, I know it's him, but it was just like

Speaker 7 stoic. And there's a moment I'm like, is it not him? Right? Things are so good.

Speaker 6 You're like, am I seeing this ready?

Speaker 7 Turn the photo around. I'm like, no, no, it's him.
It's him. It's him.

Speaker 6 No, no, this is you.

Speaker 7 So some people are that good. Some people are that good.
They will, some people, and I think this is, look, this was also somebody who committed a lot of crimes. And he was used to it.

Speaker 7 He's used to it. So certain people who are, who lie a lot usually become better at it.

Speaker 7 Or they don't feel bad. It becomes, they come better at masking it.
You obviously have a great conscience. And so it bothered you.
And so all your tells were shown.

Speaker 6 You can consider it.

Speaker 4 Your heart is bumping, like your... chest is tight, your throat is clenching, you're like,

Speaker 7 it bothered you. Yeah.

Speaker 7 Which is a healthy thing.

Speaker 7 It's actually a healthy thing when it bothers you. We tend to see in people who

Speaker 7 have sociopathic tendencies or antisocial tendencies, those people don't tend to be bothered. And so they can lie and can be quite calm about it

Speaker 7 because they don't feel that guilt. The majority of people will feel guilt.
So the majority of people will feel the way you feel

Speaker 7 because you know it's wrong, you feel it. Whereas those individuals with those tendencies, they don't care what about

Speaker 10 um

Speaker 4 a situation that

Speaker 4 you lied your way through where someone believed you is there a situation like that in the last three to five years where you lied about something you're not proud of maybe or

Speaker 4 that people believe but people believed you and

Speaker 4 more than just oh i'm having a good day lie

Speaker 7 you know what i did i could probably confess to this this was so long ago i went i got it was back in the day i got a money order from

Speaker 7 Western Union. The post office.

Speaker 4 Post office.

Speaker 7 And, you know, I was like young. I was a kid.
I wasn't making a lot of money. I was in college.
And so I asked for a money order for like $3.99.

Speaker 7 I pay, I get it. And then as I'm leaving, I see $4.99.
And I'm like, oh,

Speaker 4 $100.

Speaker 7 $100. And I took it.
And to this day, I remember it, it bothered me. Really? Yeah.
It bothered me.

Speaker 4 Did it bother that you didn't tell the truth right then and say, hey, you guys get it?

Speaker 7 No, I took the money.

Speaker 4 Yeah. I took the money.
Did it bothers you that you lied about it?

Speaker 7 I had a statue of limitations. I think I'm okay.

Speaker 7 I took the money. It bothered me afterward because

Speaker 7 I knew it was wrong. I will tell you this one story.
We went.

Speaker 4 Did that come up in the Secret Service interview? Did you ever steal something, like money when you were younger?

Speaker 7 You know what I did lie about and did come up in my Secret Service interview? I'll tell you that.

Speaker 7 When I applied for the job,

Speaker 7 when I went to college, my parents, and I love my family, they weren't very supportive. They weren't very supportive of my decisions.
My dad was a bit difficult.

Speaker 7 Like, they didn't really want me to go. And so, when you apply for college, you need their paperwork, their tax paperwork.
I needed aid.

Speaker 6 They couldn't afford it.

Speaker 7 And so, my dad was so upset with me, he wouldn't give me his tax paperwork.

Speaker 4 To go to college?

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 7 They didn't agree with my decisions because I was going to private school that

Speaker 7 they could not afford. And I was like, I'll figure it out on my own.
But either way, and so I lied when I went to the school. I said, I can't get this tax paperwork.

Speaker 7 You know, the main person was there is like, well, you think you can't get aid?

Speaker 7 And so

Speaker 7 I went back to the school later on and I said, I'm not living at home. I'm alone.
Can I get aid? I can't get access to this tax paperwork. And then I got aid.
So I flat out, I, yep, I lied.

Speaker 7 And I spilled the beans in my polygraph. I was like, I told them this is what happened.
I said, I lied to get financial aid

Speaker 7 Because I couldn't qualify for aid.

Speaker 7 And so I was like, you know, they didn't care that. I was like, look, my dad, my mom, they won't give me their tax paperwork.
They're so upset with me.

Speaker 7 They don't agree with my decision to go to this school, to do this.

Speaker 7 And they're like, no, unless you don't have your parents in your life. I was just like,

Speaker 7 I was like, I'm going to college.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 7 And I lied, but in my polygraph, I was like, I have to tell you something. Actually, I said it before they hooked me up.
And I said, look, I did, I lied about this. I did this.

Speaker 7 You know, like, why did you do it? I was like, I wanted to go to college. I couldn't get money to go to school.
So I was okay. I got the job.

Speaker 4 Wow. How many things did you tell, did you confess to before you took the polygraph?

Speaker 7 That was my biggest thing.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 7 That was my thing. Drugs, like I didn't, I never had, despite growing up in New York, I never had any issues.

Speaker 7 I, I always stayed away from it, I think, because I saw so much around it, of that around me.

Speaker 7 And the more people kind of put it in my face, the more I was kind of like, I'm not doing that.

Speaker 7 But probably would have been the opposite. If nobody did it, it, I'd be the one to be like, oh, I'm going to try this.

Speaker 7 But I think that was the biggest thing. It weighed the heaviest with me because I was like, I did this bad thing.
I lied on my financial aid paperwork to get aid.

Speaker 7 I'm hoping the statute of limitations is expired on that as well.

Speaker 6 I paid back all my loans.

Speaker 7 I paid back all my loans.

Speaker 4 When you're in an interrogation or an interview, or you're on a first date, or you're at a job interview in your career, or any type of first interview in any situation, what's the best way to build command, authority, and credibility?

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 7 So you can do very simple things like when you greet someone, hi, how are you? Come on in. Why don't you use the bathroom before we get started?

Speaker 7 So I'm not asking you, would you like to use the bathroom? I'm telling you, why don't you go use the bathroom? Why don't you have something to drink? What can I bring you? Right? So

Speaker 7 I'm in this subtle way, I'm I'm telling you to go to the bathroom and you're gonna go because of the way I said why don't you go to the bathroom no no go before we get started right you just said authority

Speaker 7 um why don't you have something to drink oh no I'm good no have something to drink so now we're gonna be here for a little bit have something to drink

Speaker 7 so now I'm I'm I'm planting these little seeds telling you I'm in control I'm not telling you but I'm doing it subtly have a seat there you know you can show me where to where to sit or on the flip side you could also practice something called called autonomy where you let somebody choose their own seat and that's a different tactic so there's two tactics where would you like to sit yeah where would you like to sit so you may use that on me if you want to talk about a topic that i don't want to talk about and so autonomy makes me feel like i have a choice you let me choose where i'm going to sit because you're going to let me have it later You're going to try to push me on something later.

Speaker 4 I gave you something now. The law of reciprocity means you give me something later.

Speaker 6 Exactly.

Speaker 7 But also autonomy though it's not it's actually also not reciprocity it's actually more of i feel in control

Speaker 7 because we don't like to feel like we're not in control so if you want to talk about something where i'm really uncomfortable i don't feel like i'm in control i will give you control elsewhere so i will give you control in picking where you want to meet.

Speaker 7 I will give you control in what time. I will give you control in where you want to sit.

Speaker 7 Little things like that you can do where that person has autonomy to choose We can do it we can do it here We can talk about this or we can talk about this which would would you prefer?

Speaker 7 That's um Nobody likes to feel like they don't have control so a way that you can deal with a resistant person

Speaker 7 is by giving them some level of Control

Speaker 4 when you're going on a first date

Speaker 4 How is it and you've been maybe in an abusive relationship in the past where you were a doormat, you were walked on you had no control no authority the person that you were in a relationship with walked over your boundaries, took advantage of you, all that.

Speaker 4 And you've had time to heal and now you're getting back out there.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 4 How can that person

Speaker 4 create a great dating experience in that first date to put themselves more in the driver's seat with some authority and not a doormat mentality?

Speaker 7 All right. So there's two things.
I think the first thing is Don't take out on that person what was done to you by somebody else.

Speaker 6 That's the worst.

Speaker 7 Just, you know, because we've all been victims of things to some degree, right? And let's say even if

Speaker 7 it was abuse, if it was horrible, it was that. It is also not fair to take that out on an innocent person, like to take your trauma out to someone else.

Speaker 7 And sometimes we can feel trauma elsewhere and then project it onto someone else who didn't cause that to us. So I would say that's the most important,

Speaker 7 more important thing because it will allow you to connect. The other thing I will say is the majority of people tend to trust.
When we have relationships with people, we tend to go and trust people.

Speaker 7 So when someone says something to you, you tend to believe it.

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Speaker 7 We're just engineered that way, and I don't even know why that is, but we tend to

Speaker 7 sway towards trusting the person in law enforcement. Actually, it's the opposite.
Law enforcement officials are notorious for thinking people are deceitful.

Speaker 7 So the average person believes people are honest. Law enforcement believes people are deceitful because they deal with more people who lie.

Speaker 7 But that causes a problem elsewhere because when you do have innocent people

Speaker 7 they're telling you the truth and then you get false confessions. You get problems.
You're looking at the wrong person because you're confirmation bias. That's a whole other animal over there.

Speaker 7 But knowing that we tend to give people,

Speaker 7 we tend to believe people automatically, just hold a little bit of that back. Don't believe less.

Speaker 7 Just be more reserved in how much you trust.

Speaker 4 Discerning about it.

Speaker 7 Yes. Just don't put it all out on the table.

Speaker 7 Oh my God, this guy's great. Or a gal's great.
I just connected with them. And then when we do, we go nose in.
And so you don't want to give unconditional trust.

Speaker 7 So unconditional trust is like, I give you now trust across the board. I trust you in everything.
When you start dating someone or any new relationship, even in business, always conditional trust.

Speaker 7 I'm not going to trust you all the way. I'm going to trust you part of the way.
So now here's the thing.

Speaker 7 We love to trust unconditionally, which is probably why we tend to just want to give people trust. It's less work.
I could just turn my brain off. I can trust you, Lewis.
Great story, yeah.

Speaker 7 Lewis, ask me anything you want because you asked me at the beginning, is there anything off the table? I'm like, no, Lewis, go ahead and ask.

Speaker 7 But you give that person unconditional trust, and I don't have to think so hard. I don't have to worry if you're going to manipulate me.
I don't have to be on my guard.

Speaker 6 It's easy.

Speaker 7 It's easier that relationship. Conditional trust means I have to be a bit more careful.
So it's like me going to buy a car. I know I'm dealing with a car salesman.
I know I should be careful.

Speaker 7 It's just understood that they try to get you to buy certain things. They use certain language.
So when I go in, I go in with conditional trust. And so I'm better better protected.

Speaker 7 That's why there you're less likely to get hurt in those situations where you understand I can't fully give everything to this person. I can't fully trust them conditionally.
I can,

Speaker 7 so I, excuse me, unconditionally. So I have to just be careful.
The thing is, that's work. It's a lot of work.
We get tired.

Speaker 7 We access a specific part of the brain when we do that, a more complex part of the brain.

Speaker 7 So that's why unconditional trust, you don't want to give it right away and that is why when we get betrayed by people close to us that's why it hurts most the most yeah it's usually by people who betrayed us on uh who we give unconditional trust to yeah

Speaker 4 that's my advice for dating that's when it stings would you use the same approach if

Speaker 4 let's say you're you know I haven't been on a first date in forever, but let's say you're on a date, your first date with someone. Would you say, hey, why don't you have some water?

Speaker 4 Why don't you use the restroom first? Where would you like to sit?

Speaker 7 Would you do the same approach there i i would not because i don't want to establish authority there

Speaker 7 that's not if you're looking to have a relationship i would not do that that's not that's that's creepy

Speaker 7 that's a controlling unhappy what should you establish trust i think rapport and trust and i think probably the best thing you can do is just not talk about yourself and listen to that other person just ask about them what would be the the you did that to me when i walked in yeah it was like heavy boom boom boom boom i was like What would be the three questions, three most fascinating questions someone could ask on a first date?

Speaker 4 That would not be interrogational, but be

Speaker 4 connecting questions.

Speaker 7 Ted,

Speaker 7 tell me about yourself. Explain to me what your dreams are.
Describe to me

Speaker 7 what your hopes are.

Speaker 7 Don't create a question because you may ask a... a question that you think is fascinating and they're going to look at you like that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard

Speaker 7 you don't write because we you don't know what they think like, what they, what their, what their aspirations are, what their.

Speaker 4 We're on a hypothetical first date. What would you say to me?

Speaker 6 Using the terms.

Speaker 7 Tell me about your podcast. I'd love to hear all about it.

Speaker 6 Ooh, okay.

Speaker 7 Explain to me how you got into that.

Speaker 7 Describe to me what it's like when you interview all these different people. I'm going to shut up and I'm going to let you go, Louis.
Because now I get to hear you.

Speaker 7 I get to see what you're like, your values, your beliefs, what excites you, what doesn't

Speaker 7 excite you. You're going to tell me about why you started it.

Speaker 7 You're going to tell me about your background, what got you into it any uh growing pains or heartaches or how this happened you're gonna tell me about your favorite guests you're not favorite guests you're gonna tell me about the amazing things you learned or maybe some of the things that you were like i can't believe i brought this guest on and so now you just opened up this world and i had to do no work and i can just listen these are more indirect questions is that right or open-ended-ended questions so don't ask a direct question who was your favorite guest don't say that i would tell me about tell me about your guests

Speaker 7 and then I would allow you to naturally tell me on your own because you feel like you're in control. And it's more likely that you will tell me on your own.

Speaker 7 But if I ask you directly, and if you want to protect the integrity of the people you interview, because you don't want to say, this is my favorite guest to make it public, because then

Speaker 7 it's going to hurt the people that come on the show, right? Your clientele, so to speak, your guests. So I would, you're not going to answer it.
You're going to be reluctant.

Speaker 7 Oh, Evie, I love everybody.

Speaker 4 It's like my kids, you know, you can't say you're a favorite kid. It's all your kids.

Speaker 7 You're going to say that. It's like when people ask me, who's your favorite president? I always say, I love them all.
They're all, I love protecting all of them.

Speaker 7 But if somebody says, tell me about the people you protected, or tell me about the presidents you protected, now I feel comfortable. I'm in control.
I'm talking. The more we talk, the more we leak.

Speaker 7 I'm less guarded. It's less direct.
I don't even know you're trying to find that. And I may naturally, on my own, get there.

Speaker 4 Tell me about a characteristic of a president that wowed you the most.

Speaker 6 Hmm.

Speaker 6 You like that opener?

Speaker 3 You like that opener?

Speaker 7 You just said on me.

Speaker 4 A characteristic from one of the presidents that you were just like, obviously they're all inspiring in some way, I'm assuming, for you, but tell me about a characteristic or a

Speaker 4 belief, a mindset, an approach, a strategy that one of them used that wowed you.

Speaker 7 I liked, there's a couple. there's like little things.

Speaker 7 I'll tell you, President, former President George Bush Sr.

Speaker 7 He used to write note cards to everybody. He had a little, he wrote note cards, thank you so much.
He would just send little note cards to people.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 I saw what an impact that made to people to receive a handwritten note. He handwrote it from someone saying, thank you, I appreciate you.

Speaker 7 And to this day, I do that.

Speaker 7 And I took that from George, President George Bush because I saw that and I was like, what a wonderful thing. And I saw how much of an impact that did.

Speaker 7 It was a very little thing, but I took that from him. So whenever I meet someone or there's an exchange or something, I will write a handwritten note card.
Thank you for your time. I appreciate it.

Speaker 7 And it does a lot. Did he write you a card? He did not write me a card.
He wasn't my full-time protectee, but I watched.

Speaker 4 Yeah, you watched him actually write it for other people?

Speaker 6 Yeah, or you saw other people get it. Both.

Speaker 7 You would see them when they would work and you would know what they did or didn't do. But that's what he did.

Speaker 7 And another characteristics, I think,

Speaker 7 I liked President Obama.

Speaker 7 I liked the way he spoke.

Speaker 7 And for me, that was very, I appreciated that because I,

Speaker 7 although I was an agent and an interviewer, I didn't know how to speak for myself. It's weird, right? I could speak on behalf of the government and the law and all that.

Speaker 7 But I never paid attention to the way I spoke to people. And what I loved, you could hear him.
You could hear him. Usually you call renegade.
I could say it. It's public.
It's in his book.

Speaker 7 Renegade on the move, right? You could hear the agents say that. But you could hear him.
You could hear him.

Speaker 7 I love the way he echoed his voice and projected his voice and didn't hold it back.

Speaker 7 and how he took his time to speak.

Speaker 7 Where a lot of people speak very fast because we feel that we're not worthy of somebody's time. I don't want to take up too much of your time, so I'm going to speak fast.

Speaker 7 We do that. We feel like, let me just hurry up and say this.
This person's probably busy. They have things to do.
And then he really projected his voice. Like it boomed through the hallways.

Speaker 7 And that was a person who was not

Speaker 7 shy of being present, of

Speaker 7 taking a space and letting you know I'm here and my voice is relevant. I like that.

Speaker 6 That's powerful.

Speaker 7 Yes.

Speaker 4 Any other characteristics from anyone else?

Speaker 6 Hmm.

Speaker 7 There's so many.

Speaker 4 The ones that wowed you that's they all did.

Speaker 7 They were all great. George Washington.
George Washington.

Speaker 6 Oh my God. All right.
How old are you?

Speaker 7 G.W., President George Bush. He like I love going to the ranch with him.
I'm from New York City. I go to Texas.
And I was just like, what?

Speaker 7 You know, it was like, we were out in the wild. He's like, we're going, we're going to make trails.
I was like, why are we going to make trails? There's a road right there.

Speaker 7 You know, we'd cut trails and hike. And he was very

Speaker 7 authentic. Who he was

Speaker 7 on camera was who he was off camera and vice versa.

Speaker 7 He was very just real. And so you would see these qualities.
with different people and

Speaker 7 you know it's kind of interesting I just thought of it I was almost like in my own school of greatness

Speaker 7 by being in the White House. And then over all the years of about you're around all these people, these influential leaders, despite, forget politics, it still takes a person of some

Speaker 7 to get there.

Speaker 7 Yes, to get there. And so you watch them.
And then not just them. They've got cabinet members, other individuals who,

Speaker 7 you know, you watch and you listen to. You see how they problem solve.
And I was in my own school of greatness where I just got to be front row and you're doing your job.

Speaker 7 At the same time, you're like,

Speaker 7 you're listening, you're watching, you're absorbing. I loved it.

Speaker 4 Were there any strategies you witnessed or watched or observed from them telling you or not telling you on how they commanded respect and authority in just their way of being, tonality?

Speaker 4 Was it touching people, you know, in their hand? Is it, you know, whatever it is? Eye contact.

Speaker 4 What were the things that they did or that some of them did that really stood out to you?

Speaker 7 So, I'll tell you this: they didn't have to work as hard because they're already the authority

Speaker 7 the authority. So, you don't, so I want to say that.
Like, they don't, person can look at you like, hey, how you doing?

Speaker 7 And then, like, blow you off, and you're like, oh my god, I got like a whole solid second. Whereas when they're talking to me or you, it's just like, you only gave me a second, yeah, right?

Speaker 7 So, they don't have to work as hard, so even the little attention they give you lands on you. However, though, eye contact is huge

Speaker 7 when you talk to someone and you want to convey,

Speaker 7 you want to convey, hey, trust me,

Speaker 7 and rapport, this is huge. In fact, if you go to the supermarket and you look at cereal boxes, they have cartoon, the characters on the cereal boxes.

Speaker 4 They're looking at you.

Speaker 7 You know where a lot of them look down? They're looking down. You know who they're looking down? You'll see cereal boxes where the character looks down.

Speaker 4 At the cereal.

Speaker 7 No, I'm a cereal box, right? I'm the tricks rabbit or whatever, right? Now, you go shopping. I'm not looking at you.
I'm looking down. Why am I looking down?

Speaker 4 The rabbit's looking down. Right.

Speaker 7 The rabbit's looking down. Thank you.

Speaker 6 Wow.

Speaker 7 Because the kid's the consumer.

Speaker 6 Yeah, not the adult. No.

Speaker 6 He's going to say, mom, come grab me.

Speaker 7 Mom, buy that for me.

Speaker 6 Oh, my God.

Speaker 7 So they design them to actually look down and they also put them at a certain level. And so maybe in adult cereal, they'll have the person looking at you.

Speaker 7 higher up because they're looking at the adult. Eye contact is huge.
It conveys, trust me, talk to me, I'm here, I'm connected with you.

Speaker 7 Even when you want to listen to people, normally we do break eye contact, but good communicators will lock in. They're not uncomfortable.
They're there. I'm with you.
I'm connected with you.

Speaker 7 That is huge.

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Speaker 7 But you touched on literally touching people and you would see a tactic. I don't want to say a tactic, but a no, it's a tactic.

Speaker 4 It's a strategy.

Speaker 7 It's a strategy. It's, you know, hey, you know, Louis, and, you know, and maybe I like to touch your forearm.
Yeah. You can do that.
But I will say today.

Speaker 6 You can't do that.

Speaker 7 Today is very different.

Speaker 7 You know, they would teach us that. They're like, hey, you can touch the top of a person's knee and just be like, hey, and I could be like, whoa, unwanted touch.

Speaker 7 So now I would actually go against that.

Speaker 7 I would actually encourage people not to do that just simply because

Speaker 7 you don't know how it's going to be received. And now today, it's, you got to be a little bit less is more with that.

Speaker 4 Shaking your hand, maybe, and that's it for

Speaker 4 a second hand on the top, like a genuine, heartfelt for two seconds and then let it go.

Speaker 7 Yeah, I think so. I think so.
You want to respect people's space. It's a little bit different.
I think we have more, well, we do have more social space now.

Speaker 7 And it's interesting how that's going to change the dynamics of how we interact in the future.

Speaker 4 Interesting. How do you build that trust without being present and more connected and touching?

Speaker 7 Right, and you have a mask. You can't even see the lower portion of a person's face, which conceals their expressions, their gestures.

Speaker 4 So so it's even harder to read them so how do we read people like that is it more body language then of like

Speaker 6 shoulders down as opposed to

Speaker 7 the tone the inflection of the voice does it change does it not the body posture again sometimes it's just as simple as how they say something

Speaker 7 you know the way they deliver a story for example when i worked cases sometimes

Speaker 7 I did interviews and interrogations and I would be asked to help local police departments sometimes. And they'd say, look,

Speaker 7 we have

Speaker 7 this case

Speaker 7 and we've got three suspects, but we can't figure out who it is.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 I'd always want to interview the person I thought it was. And so I would say, send me, do you have statements? And they'd say yes.
And I'd say, send me the statements that they wrote.

Speaker 7 Written statements. Written statements.

Speaker 4 About what they said.

Speaker 4 Their story is.

Speaker 7 Their story is, correct. Because these are people typically that had been already interviewed by local police.
They got nothing. They have no proof.

Speaker 7 So they would reach out and they say, look, you guys are polygraph examiners. You have a bit more expertise in this.
Will you help us out? It's an important case.

Speaker 7 And so I'd say, send me their statements. And so I'd look at their statements.
And based on their statements, I would be able sometimes, most of the time, to tell who

Speaker 7 likely did it.

Speaker 7 And it was those statements that,

Speaker 7 and this also happens when we tell a story, when we speak, when you ask somebody, what did you do yesterday? When they

Speaker 7 deliver a beautiful story to you that has a beginning,

Speaker 7 a middle, and an end, it's an arc. When it's a story, it's an arc.
It's typically manufactured.

Speaker 3 That's a lie, usually.

Speaker 7 Yes, because we don't typically talk about our stuff like that. And so when I would read a story, I would read a statement.
And if I read like a story,

Speaker 7 Because the person's like the liar is like, oh, I got to write a story. I got to tell them what I did here, then did here.

Speaker 7 They're manufacturing it a truthful person is gonna write how their day went and a truthful person also makes spontaneous corrections so

Speaker 7 it contradicts what a lot of people think in that if i correct myself as i'm telling you something then it looks like i'm hiding something and i'm um i um it looks like i'm yes i'm correcting myself because i'm hiding something i can't remember my lie and it's actually not true those are the honest ones yes actually that was a mistake It's a spontaneous correction.

Speaker 7 When it's unsolicited and somebody you're speaking to, or even in writing, you'll see a scribble. It's okay.

Speaker 7 If it's a spontaneous correction, meaning they're correcting themselves as they're speaking to you, it indicates truthfulness.

Speaker 4 That's an interesting little.

Speaker 6 Yes.

Speaker 7 And also, too, like a little one when somebody uses quotes when they talk to you, they'll say, oh, he said, and quote, you know, they'll tell you something somebody said in quotes, like he said, you know, this in quotes, that's also truthful.

Speaker 7 The the air quotes the air quotes and someone uses that not on the written paper quotes but the air quotes even in both yes someone uses quotes yes and i repeat this said this that means they're telling more likely the truth yes truth why is that because they're they're um they're being very specific uh we also know based on the research people who lie lie vaguely remember i said it's work it's hard work it's you're trying to create a lie tell a lie remember the lie listen to the person speaking to you, think about what you want to say.

Speaker 7 There's so much going on, and so what they do is they lie vaguely because it's too hard for me to remember all these details, create all these details. It's just too much.
It's a heavy cognitive load.

Speaker 4 What would you say is the way to overcome self-doubt and build confidence? Some things they could do.

Speaker 7 Stop doing things that you're only comfortable with.

Speaker 7 Take risks.

Speaker 7 Make decisions. I think I've noticed that with people who lack confidence, they're quite indecisive.
Indecisiveness is a big thing.

Speaker 7 And what they will do is they will go take a survey and ask everybody around them, what do you think I should do?

Speaker 7 What do you think I should do? And you're asking a person who has no ability to,

Speaker 7 you're asking someone with no expertise about something. It'd be like, love mom, but it'd be like me asking my mom, Hey mom, do you think I should do this TV show? And she'd be like, what did you say?

Speaker 7 What TV show?

Speaker 6 Oh, you're going to be on TV?

Speaker 7 You know, like, I can't ask my mom about a TV business decision. She doesn't have the experience.
I can ask her about something else, you know, that she does have experience in.

Speaker 7 But indecisiveness is key.

Speaker 4 And how does someone build decisiveness when you guys start?

Speaker 7 You got to stop asking people what to do and just do it. And then when you make a mistake, own it.
Fall on your face. The more you fail, the more confident you become.

Speaker 7 You can't fear failure. I've failed, Louis.
I don't even know. I feel it.
I feel so much. And every, you know, and I look at it, I'm like, all right.

Speaker 7 And once that happens, once the worst thing that could happen to you happens, and you are still standing, you are still there, you are still breathing, like,

Speaker 7 that

Speaker 7 builds resilience.

Speaker 7 Indecisiveness, knock that out. The minute you're like, let me ask people, stop.
Choose. Don't worry about it whether you're right or wrong.
Just do it.

Speaker 4 So we got to take risks, make decisions, fail often, choose. Anything else on overcoming self-doubt that you've seen?

Speaker 7 The way you talk to yourself in your head.

Speaker 7 Watch the language you use. Watch your mouth with yourself.
So, for example, I work out

Speaker 7 and so there are moments where it happens where I'm sitting on the sofa and I'm just like, I don't want to do this. I don't want to go run outside.
I don't want to go to jiu-jitsu. I'm tired.

Speaker 7 I want to sit. I want to eat popcorn.
I don't want to do anything. I want to watch Netflix.
I will never say to myself, don't be lazy. Get up.
I'm not lazy. There's nothing about me that is lazy.

Speaker 7 Why would I ever say that to me? But I will say, if you move, get up, go. And I may be bitching as I'm putting on my sneakers.
I don't want to do this.

Speaker 7 I hate this, whatever. But I will be putting them on and doing it and then go.
But I will never. Call myself names.
And that's something I had to learn over time.

Speaker 4 Oh, man. This was my entire childhood was calling myself names.
You're never going to mount anything. You're stupid.
You suck. Why did you do that? Idiot.
You know, all these things.

Speaker 7 Even something as simple as like, oh, I'm such an idiot. What did I do? Why did I put that there? And I catch myself, I'm like, don't say that about yourself.
You're not an idiot.

Speaker 7 I wouldn't want another human, I wouldn't want somebody else to call me an idiot. Why would I call myself an idiot? We get pissed at other people when they call us that stuff, but we don't know.

Speaker 4 We should get mad at ourselves for calling us that stuff.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 4 What would you say are the three greatest skills that you have as an interrogator?

Speaker 7 As an interrogator, I can listen. I can listen and have a person completely shred me

Speaker 7 and not say a word.

Speaker 4 What does that mean, shred you?

Speaker 7 Like you can have somebody be like, I hate you, you're this, you're that, you know. You don't react.

Speaker 7 In the interview room, especially with the job,

Speaker 7 I would sit and take it because it wasn't my ego.

Speaker 6 It was less personal too. It's not.

Speaker 7 It was less personal.

Speaker 7 But I've been able to, not always successfully, but even in my personal life

Speaker 7 Maybe without with my husband so much. He's probably like yeah, that's bullshit

Speaker 7 But he's an interrogator too, so it's all right, but typically with friendships relationships, I'm better at not like I can I you know, I can have people say hurtful or cruel things and not respond.

Speaker 7 Really? I'm not saying it hurt, it doesn't hurt.

Speaker 7 And there's moments, you know, you have those moments where maybe a business relationship doesn't go well, or you have a friend friend or even a distant family member and like they send you a horrible email that you know soul crushing and you just want to point out like just the the

Speaker 7 you know the lies or the inadequacies in what they wrote and I have learned to not respond or to try not to respond I have my moments too but I really think to myself is this person worth responding to sometimes it's hard because it's like I hear what this person's saying I see what they're doing

Speaker 7 and you want to respond. And I think it takes so much discipline to not be mean to someone who's being mean to you

Speaker 7 or hurtful to you. Yeah,

Speaker 4 that's tough.

Speaker 7 Because we all go through that.

Speaker 7 Each one of us has people in our lives who give us hate. And you're like, how's this happening? Why is this happening?

Speaker 7 And you want to give it back, especially when you've trusted them unconditionally.

Speaker 4 You feel betrayed. You believed everything they say.

Speaker 7 You believed you, you, you accessed the primitive part of your brain and you gave them all that trust. You didn't give them conditional trust.
You gave it all up.

Speaker 7 And then that relationship goes south and

Speaker 7 you can be distraught.

Speaker 10 That's hard. How do we learn?

Speaker 4 How did you learn to respond in an empowering way or not respond at all when someone attacks you?

Speaker 7 That, to be fair, I learned that in the interrogation room, in the interview room.

Speaker 7 When we were...

Speaker 4 Were you always like that? So you weren't always like that. No.

Speaker 6 You're like, screw you.

Speaker 6 I was bad. I was bad.

Speaker 7 I was pretty bad. Yeah, I took after my father

Speaker 7 in that part, you know. And look, and I give my dad kudos in that.

Speaker 7 Like, even, you know, I talked about the cursing thing, and I realized where I got it when I'd go home as a kid sometimes, and I'm like, dad, this person picked on me, and this, that, this is his advice.

Speaker 6 Did you say you?

Speaker 7 He never taught me to be a victim.

Speaker 7 And so sometimes being able to like say, hey, F you,

Speaker 7 it gives you power back to say, like, I'm not going to take this. I'm not going to do this.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 4 The three greatest skills you have as an interrogator.

Speaker 7 Listen, I think being able to take it when people are cruel, and I think we touched on that,

Speaker 7 it takes more self-control and more self-discipline to be able to not say something than say something. There's this great quote, I'm going to butcher it.
Aristotle said it, I believe.

Speaker 7 And it's like, it's to get angry is an easy thing, but to be angry with the right person for the right reason and in the right way and for the right situation is not easy and not within everybody's power.

Speaker 7 You know, and so for me, I work on that just because I naturally gravitate to that.

Speaker 4 If you have a victim mentality a lot, maybe step it up and defend yourself a little more.

Speaker 7 Yeah, or you know, put yourself in uncomfortable places. And when people say things to you, don't.
You don't want, don't, you can't let it crush you. You got to have a little bit of that, who are you?

Speaker 4 Yeah, some thick skin. Yeah.

Speaker 7 But, but not even thick skin, but the ability to say, like, you're wrong. I know you're wrong.
I don't even need to tell you you're wrong.

Speaker 7 And I think

Speaker 7 the third thing would be what I learned is

Speaker 7 when you try to say something to someone and when you're going to explain something to someone,

Speaker 7 you have to ask yourself, does this person sitting across from me have the ability? to understand the perspective I'm about to share with them.

Speaker 6 Right, they may not.

Speaker 7 And if they don't, just sit there and just be like, okay, okay. Oh my God, look at that.
Look at the time. I got to go.
And so I think not wasting your time

Speaker 7 banging down a door that it's not even a door. It's like letting that go.

Speaker 4 I've got a couple final questions for you. Yes.
This is called the three truths.

Speaker 5 It's a hypothetical question.

Speaker 6 Oh, I'm nervous.

Speaker 4 Imagine your last day on earth many years away from now.

Speaker 6 Okay.

Speaker 4 And you've got to accomplish everything you want to accomplish. All your dreams come true, everything you want to do, it happens.

Speaker 6 Okay.

Speaker 4 But for whatever reason, you've got to take all of your work with you. Your written work, your books, your audio, this interview, it's all got to go with you to the next place, wherever you go.

Speaker 4 You've got to take everything with you. So no one has access to your content anymore or a recording of you anymore or your information.

Speaker 6 Okay.

Speaker 4 But you get a piece of paper and a pen and you get to write down three lessons you've learned from your life that you'd want to share with the world. I call it the three truths.

Speaker 4 What would you say would be your three truths that you would share with everyone?

Speaker 7 Do the right thing, even when it's not the most popular thing to do.

Speaker 7 That would be it. That would be a huge because sometimes you're doing the right thing and everybody around you is telling you you're wrong, you're this, you're that.

Speaker 7 And it's like if you know it to be the right thing,

Speaker 7 do it.

Speaker 7 That's not easy.

Speaker 7 Three things that I would leave behind, right? I would.

Speaker 4 Number two.

Speaker 7 say it again. I want to hear it again.

Speaker 4 This is all you have to leave behind. Lessons that you've learned from your life.
Lessons. I call them three truths.

Speaker 4 Do the right thing, even when it's not popular.

Speaker 7 Make your own decisions.

Speaker 7 Fail as much as possible.

Speaker 7 Because

Speaker 7 the more you fail, it means the more you're doing and the more you're putting yourself out there. When you don't fail, it means you're not doing anything.

Speaker 5 That's true. Yeah.

Speaker 7 Oh, that was deep.

Speaker 4 That's good. I like this.
I want to acknowledge you for a moment.

Speaker 4 The fact that you've gone through these different stages of your life and done the right thing, even when it's not popular.

Speaker 6 Try.

Speaker 3 I don't want to put up.

Speaker 7 You've tried to. I might have had a little bit of Lewis in me too growing up.

Speaker 6 I'm not going to.

Speaker 7 I'm far from perfect.

Speaker 5 I will say that.

Speaker 4 Well, I acknowledge you for being in the industry and and the level of service that you've had for trying to do the right thing, trying to help people make better decisions, having justice where justice is needed and being a force for good.

Speaker 4 You've shown as a force for good for many, many years in your level of service. So I really acknowledge you for showing up.

Speaker 4 And then also moving into the next stage of your life and showing up in a different way to serve people with this type of information, to help people.

Speaker 4 to spread the knowledge that you've learned in these different environments.

Speaker 4 So I really acknowledge you for the gift that you are, for showing up, for learning, for failing, for growing and all the stuff you're doing. It's really inspiring.

Speaker 11 I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness.

Speaker 11 Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links.

Speaker 11 And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts.

Speaker 11 Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review.

Speaker 11 I really love hearing feedback from you, and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward.

Speaker 11 And I want to remind you: if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something

Speaker 9 great.

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Speaker 7 Hey, it's Parker Posey. How did I get here? I love improvisation when it comes to acting, but when it comes to a real-life plan, I stick to a script.
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