Talk Tracks Ep 12: What Lucid Dreaming Reveals About Reality

Speaker 1 Hi everyone, I'm Kai Dickens and I'm thrilled to welcome you to the Talk Tracks. In this series, we dive deeper into the revelations, challenges, and unexpected truths from the telepathy tapes.

Speaker 1 The goal is to explore all the threads that weave together our understanding of reality, science, spirituality, and yes, even unexplained things like psi abilities.

Speaker 1 If you haven't yet listened to season one of the telepathy tapes, I encourage you to start there. It lays the foundation for everything we'll be exploring in this journey.

Speaker 1 We'll feature conversations with groundbreaking researchers, thinkers, non-speakers, and experiencers who illuminate the extraordinary connections that may defy explanation today, but won't for long.

Speaker 1 Do you have a story, insight, or research that belongs on the telepathy tapes or talk tracks? Email stories at the telepathytapes.com.

Speaker 1 And if you want to go deeper, ask me anything, or get ad-free episodes, subscribe at thetelepathytapes.supercast.com or tap the supercast link in the show notes.

Speaker 1 On today's episode of the Talk Tracks, we're talking to two experts exploring different phenomena, both working in the fields of consciousness and dreams.

Speaker 1 First, we meet Dan Lawrence, a Jungian psychoanalytic psychotherapist whose work in understanding the subconscious and human interconnectivity are explored through experiences called social dreaming.

Speaker 1 And then we speak with Michael Reduca, CEO and the founder of REM Space, a research center developing amazing emerging technologies related to sleep paralysis, lucid dreams, and out-of-body experiences that will expand our understanding of the potential of consciousness and reshape our future.

Speaker 1 And now we welcome Dan Lawrence to the talk tracks. So Dan, to start, why don't you introduce yourself and let us know how you fell into this very unique line of work?

Speaker 2 I live in rural South Devon in the southwest of England with my wife and three children. And I live in a very quiet place down an unmade track, which is perfect for the kind of work that I I do.

Speaker 2 A Jungian psychotherapist, but I'm very much at the intuitive end of things. Bizarrely, my first career was on the stock market in London.
I was a futures trader on the Life Exchange.

Speaker 2 And I think if you look back at a thread, even then, I was very curious about patterns, the patterns behind the data that was in front of me. And I was part of

Speaker 2 a small group of people.

Speaker 2 down there on the stock market that would pay attention to dreams and use dreams as a kind of technology, as a way of kind of getting behind the initial kind of data of things and seeing if we can spot other trends in that sense.

Speaker 2 But at some point I had a vision of Christ in my early 20s and it took me two or three years to really kind of get my head around that.

Speaker 2 And at which point I left trading and I considered priesthood training and monastic training.

Speaker 2 and eventually settled upon a Jungian training as a kind of response to this vision and this much longer threat in my life, which included lots of side phenomena and

Speaker 2 a kind of intuition-led experience, really. So now I'm in private practice.

Speaker 2 I work with people internationally online, but I also work with organizations and groups using methodology like social dreaming.

Speaker 2 Kind of really, what I'm curious about is helping people to be curious about unconscious communication and thinking about what's emerging out of that layer of mind that is connected and

Speaker 2 has an objective quality to it, has something to say to us, really. So,

Speaker 2 I think more than anything, I'm a phenomenologist, really. I'm interested in objectively studying people's subjective experience, but also getting behind the curtain in things too.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and maybe Dan, you can just explain what being a Jungian psychotherapist means. And I think a lot of people might not even know what the term Jungian refers to.

Speaker 2 Carl Jung was a contemporary of Freud, Sigmund Freud at the time. And in fact, at one point he was kind of earmarked as the successor to Freud by Freud, but they had quite a falling out.

Speaker 2 Freud's vision was that we have this unconscious, this unknown in us, but often it's very personal and it's what's repressed and maybe what we can't feel that we can think about or it's stuff that feels taboo to us.

Speaker 2 Whereas Jung took a different tack and he

Speaker 2 really through his own experiences too, was very interested in the idea that beyond what we can know, there is another reality, what we might call a transpsychic reality that brings in notions of the collective unconscious and this purpose in the unconscious that it's something that we can listen to and it has something to say in our life.

Speaker 1 And then I wonder if you can explain Jung's theory around synchronicity and how it helps us understand interconnectivity. and just shared experiences.

Speaker 1 You know, how does this kind of relate back to Jung and the framework he built?

Speaker 2 So Jung called synchronicity an a-causal causal connecting principle. So it's things that are connected, but not in a causal way.

Speaker 2 So you might have two or more independent events with no causal connection whatsoever, but yet they're connected by a meaning. So I'll give you an example.
In fact, a personal example just recently.

Speaker 2 So I was speaking recently to a guy called Peter, who's in Australia.

Speaker 2 He's a retired psychologist, but also someone with a very well-developed psychic faculty and that's formed the bedrock to his career over many years.

Speaker 2 He wrote a really good book called The Way of Aesir. And we were on an audio call, WhatsApp audio call.

Speaker 2 And whilst I was listening to Peter kind of talking about kind of various aspects of his experience, my attention split.

Speaker 2 And it's like my attention detached from my body and started to hover around the room and move across the room. And it just so happened that there was a pile of books in the corner of the room.

Speaker 2 that my wife had thrown in there earlier that day because she was fed up with me filling the the house with books everywhere.

Speaker 2 And so I kind of followed my attention across the room and I walked across and I just randomly picked one of these books out and laid it on the desk and just opened it on the page that felt right.

Speaker 2 So as Peter was talking to me, I started to scan read this page.

Speaker 2 And it was a letter. The book was a collection of letters of private correspondence between Jung, Carl Jung, and other people in the 40s.

Speaker 2 And it's a book that I probably haven't picked up for 10 or 15 years. And it was a letter from Jung to a psychiatrist in the 40s called Lawrence Bende.

Speaker 2 So I'm reading this and I'm thinking when Peter stops talking, I'll say to him, hey, Peter, my attention has split and I've opened this book here. I wonder how this connects.

Speaker 2 But before I could, Peter said, oh, before I forget, it's just popped into my mind that there's this really obscure book that you should read, Dan. It's called Paranormal Cognition by Lawrence Bende.

Speaker 2 I don't know if you've ever heard of it.

Speaker 2 So that's a classic synchronicity that the meaning, there's a meaningful connection between me kind of approaching that book, opening on that page, and it popping also into Peter's mind.

Speaker 2 But there's no causal connection between them.

Speaker 2 And of course, as you start to pay attention to synchronicities, they tend to happen more.

Speaker 2 Everybody, I tend to ask, has an example of some point in their life where something uncanny and meaningful has connected.

Speaker 1 And what's your explanation for that? I mean, do you think it is that we're all entangled in some way?

Speaker 1 Or do you think that there's this like huge collective conscious that's just all around us that we can all tap into or is it a form of telepathy that you are sending a thought to him

Speaker 2 in terms of explaining to christie i really appeal to jung and jung

Speaker 2 had this notion of transpsychic reality which is this kind of underbed to what we can perceive through our minds And this transpsychic reality is where mind and matter collapse into one.

Speaker 2 It's a kind of unitary existence. And it's this single reality in which past, present, and future are collapsed into this timeless unity.

Speaker 2 One way of thinking about synchronicity is thinking about it as a language of the field, in a way.

Speaker 2 And this is the idea that field comes before form, that there is the only ultimate reality, the only things that are real is field, but we experience life as form.

Speaker 2 So Teard de Chardin, the Catholic priest and philosopher, said that matter is spirit moving slow enough to be seen. And so there is this idea that ultimate reality is spirit and that we experience it.

Speaker 2 The only way that we can experience it is through time and place and through these fields condensing into matter momentarily, but underlying that, and this is where psi phenomena comes from.

Speaker 2 And this aligns with, I think, a lot of the material that you've come across in these brilliant young minds in telepathy tapes.

Speaker 2 is that ultimately what they're in touch with is this underlying reality, which is spirit.

Speaker 1 What I love about the field theory is in episode six of the telepathy hapes, we really try to look at how to explain something like telepathy or psi abilities in the context of our reality.

Speaker 1 And one of the metaphors I used was, you know, right now within the materialist paradigm, consciousness is at the tippy tip of the pyramid.

Speaker 1 And we can't explain why or how it comes from, but if we think of consciousness as the base of the pyramid, the first, the most original, the most real, and the material world grew up from it, then we can account for psi phenomenon because essentially our whole world is mental more than it is physical.

Speaker 1 I mean, does that track with what you're saying regarding field theory?

Speaker 2 Yes, it absolutely tracks. I mean, that's the starting point for sure.

Speaker 2 And I think what's so exciting about the telepathy tapes and the incredible success that it's had, it just caught the imagination, is because to use another of Jung's kind of theories of enantiodromia, which is this underlying idea that the deeper reality, the field, provides when

Speaker 2 at a collective level, we swing too far one way into one polarity of an idea, i.e.

Speaker 2 materialism or a mechanistic worldview, that we are provided by it, by the field, by this kind of deep psyche, a compensation. And that compensation carries this kind of swing to the other polarity.

Speaker 2 And here it is emerging at a time when we possibly really need it.

Speaker 2 We really need to be, as as a collective race, back in touch with the idea that we're all interconnected, the idea that actually spirit is at the root of things.

Speaker 1 So imagine you were talking to one of your kids, maybe, I don't know if you have a child around like 10, let's say 10 or 11, and you were to explain to them what social dreaming is, how

Speaker 1 you do this, you know,

Speaker 1 what daddy does for a living, what you can achieve out of it. Like, how would you explain it to the youngest, you know, a young child, what social dreaming is, why people do it how it works

Speaker 2 so social dreaming is a way of spending some time with the connective part of dreams really so and dreams of course you can think of dreams as almost like the the soil of our thinking so you might think of dreams as nighttime thinking as this kind of proto thinking before thoughts become real So when we pay attention to dreams, they have this lovely way of telling a story to us that gets around the way that we see the world usually.

Speaker 2 So often, if we have a certain attitude towards something, then the dream might offer us an opposite view of things.

Speaker 2 Now, what we discover when we dream together and that we share those dreams together is that there are little connections and little links between them.

Speaker 2 So there's two things that can happen when we start to engage in social dreaming. First one is that you might think new thoughts.

Speaker 2 So companies or organizations might engage someone like me to do some social dreaming with them because they feel like they're stuck in being able to innovate and kind of think new thoughts.

Speaker 2 And social dreaming might allow for these new connections to be made and these new ideas to pop up out of the soil, like little kind of green shoots.

Speaker 2 The real magic in social dreaming is this crackle in the room when people understand that they are connected at a level that goes well beyond their personal identity.

Speaker 2 And so you might have a group of people that have worked alongside each other seven, eight, 10 hours a day on projects and they think they know something about each other.

Speaker 2 And suddenly they have this new level of connection, new level of intimacy that changes the whole feeling in the room and people really start to lean into each other in a new way.

Speaker 2 That's the real magic in social dreaming.

Speaker 1 When you say when dreams connect with other people, can you tell me about

Speaker 1 how that happens, what that looks like, how you know it's happening?

Speaker 2 So an example, I once hosted a social dreaming session for about 80 doctors in the southwest of England.

Speaker 2 So they were on a kind of conference day and I was there to give them an experience of social dreaming. It was a one-day conference for GPs to meet up, you know, from a very vast area.

Speaker 2 They weren't co-workers, so they lived and worked in the southwest, but probably about 100 miles away from each other.

Speaker 2 So I don't know if they'd ever met before, but they were doctors who were working in completely different surgeries. in completely different areas of the southwest.

Speaker 2 As you might imagine, these doctors kind of sat there with their arms crossed thinking, what do you mean we're going to share our dreams? And what do you mean that's got a point to it?

Speaker 2 But the very first dream, someone kind of shared a dream and they said,

Speaker 2 last night I dreamt that my parents were lost in India. And in the dream, they were lost in rural India.
They didn't know where they were and they were panicking.

Speaker 2 They're in this really panicked state. And in the dream, I was starting to panic.
And I had to try and work out where they were. using maps and trying to use technology.

Speaker 2 And there was this kind of air of, if I don't don't find out where they are they might run out food and water and sustenance and I will be responsible in some way and as that first dream was spoken by someone right in the kind of right hand side of the room across the other side to the left hand side of the room someone gasped and stood up and said oh my god last night my parents called me from India they're traveling at the moment and they were in rural India and they were lost and they were really worried and I had to triangulate their location.

Speaker 2 I had to contact the hotel And luckily, the hotel were able over the course of two or three hours to send someone out and find them and recover them. And they're very elderly.
They're in their 80s.

Speaker 2 And it was a really kind of distressing experience.

Speaker 2 And this might sound kind of, you know, bizarre or uncanny, but these are the kind of things that happen when you're doing depth work with people and you're allowing for that as a as a phenomenon.

Speaker 1 So with social dreaming, you know, you might kind of be hired or whatever to set an intention for a certain group, if you will.

Speaker 1 Like, this is the thing we're thinking we're trying to solve or the question we're trying to answer. This is the group involved.
Then there's sort of a timeframe set.

Speaker 1 And then you kind of get back together and discuss the dreams like a week later. Or is it kind of every night then once this container or this intention is set?

Speaker 2 Okay. So in a social dreaming session, it's two parts.
So the first part is called the social dreaming matrix.

Speaker 2 And the use of the word matrix is deliberate because matrix comes from the Latin root for the word uterus. So it has this generative kind of quality about it.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 you might have this kind of session where people are sharing dreams, they're sharing each other's associations and thoughts and images to each other's dreams.

Speaker 2 And the focus is on the dream and not the dreamer.

Speaker 2 So we're very used to in Western society, hearing someone say a dream and starting to think about that dream in relation to that person, in relation to the dreamer.

Speaker 2 In social dreaming, the focus on the dream itself as a social commentary, as something about this group of people or the tasks that they're working on, or even kind of wider culture and reality.

Speaker 2 And then after the matrix session, you then might have a dialogue session where you make sense of the different themes that emerge, the images, the connections between the dreams, and then you ground that in the reality of what's going on right now.

Speaker 2 Because one thing about Jungian work, especially,

Speaker 2 is you have a foot in both camps.

Speaker 2 You're both valuing kind of phenomenal reality and

Speaker 2 what's material right now, people's lives, their grounded bodies and their lives.

Speaker 2 But also you're paying attention in equal measure to that which is more spiritual, more psychical, more emergent, you know, less clear.

Speaker 1 And I think to end on that note, you know, what do you think, I mean, just through this almost collective awakening we're seeing, and I don't think it's just the telepathy tapes, I think there's a lot just sort of all converging right now where people do seem open, open and and more interested in exploring these ideas that have been around for millennia but might have just been on pause or forgotten about for the past few hundred years you know do you think there's going to be new ways of thinking that emerge about human potential and spirituality and connection you know are you hopeful where do you see where do you see us as humans right now in this quest?

Speaker 1 Like, do you think that we used to be more in touch with this? We dipped out a little bit because we became very scientific and material based.

Speaker 2 And now we're kind of starting to edge back to it and so what do you where do you think we are and what's our future i think this is a pendulum sweep really in our collective potential notion of reality and our connectedness to that so i think we have swung too far towards a materialist standpoint i think the emergence and people like michael conforti and their brilliant work around connecting new physics with studies of nature and ethology and patterns and Jungian work and dreams and being able to translate dreams in a way that connects us with this larger reality.

Speaker 2 I have real hope also with young people actually because I think

Speaker 2 in many ways I feel very sorry for young people right now growing up as a young person in this particular culture because a lot of their dreaming is done for them and we've lost the art of looking inwards and taking our dreams seriously and letting them come to life in us.

Speaker 2 So one of the the joys that I have as a Jungian psychotherapist is working with young people, actually, working with people often between the ages of say 16 and 25 that kind of late adolescent young adulthood

Speaker 2 and seeing the penny drop that they have this technology that is their own that is this inner life that is lively just like young they can pay attention to these figures and it has something to say they don't have to find that on tick tock or they don't have to be told about it you know that there is there is this inner life that is that is emergent and fluid and has so much to say to them both about their own life and about the potential in human reality.

Speaker 2 I have a favorite phrase that I often hear myself kind of repeat to people that I work with, that is approaching all of this kind of phenomena with the preface in your mind of I had a dream that.

Speaker 2 So if we were to apply that phrase to everything that we do, so

Speaker 2 Sam to meet a new client and they're a little bit late for a session.

Speaker 2 And they say, oh, I arrived a little bit late because I was trying to get parked and someone took my parking space i invite them immediately to think okay so let's say you had a dream that that happened i had a dream that someone took my parking space what would that mean to you and it enables us just to get you know into a more fluid state of mind and to really begin to listen to not just the the kind of nighttime dreaming not just things like uncanny phenomena and synchronicity and telepathy and psi phenomena, but also the very mundane things that happen in our lives, because it helps people to get in touch with this field-like, dream-like quality of things.

Speaker 2 And so I think that connects with the invitation of non-speakers in the telepathy tapes.

Speaker 2 I get the sense that they are much more in touch than the rest of us with that dreamlike quality and that field-like quality of life. And they have so much to teach us.

Speaker 2 And we have a unique potential invitation in time in order of what's coming through in the telepathy tapes and the wider community.

Speaker 1 So as fascinating as that was, let's turn to the future landscape of consciousness and dreams.

Speaker 1 As we speak with Michael Reduga, Michael is a world-renowned researcher, educator, and author in the field of out-of-body experiences, lucid dreaming, and altered states of consciousness.

Speaker 1 As the founder of the Phase Research Center, Michael has dedicated his career to understanding and teaching practical methods for accessing the phase, a state that bridges the waking and dreaming worlds.

Speaker 1 His techniques are being practiced by thousands who are curious about the intersection of consciousness, reality, and human potential.

Speaker 1 So, whether you're a skeptic or a believer, Michael's insights promise to challenge your perceptions and offer new ways of thinking about the mind's untapped abilities.

Speaker 1 So, Michael, thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 3 Thank you for inviting.

Speaker 3 I will be glad to share what you may know.

Speaker 1 What initially sparked your interest in out-of-body experiences and altered states of consciousness?

Speaker 3 When I was a teenager,

Speaker 3 I was around 16 years old, I experienced trip paralysis and other related phenomena. I was 16 years old.
I had no idea about phenomena like this. I woke up and I felt that I could move.

Speaker 3 And the first thing, the thing you think about that you are dying, then suddenly I recalled all those stories about alien abductions.

Speaker 3 because when i watched those movies or read those books almost all alien abductions uh how happened at night

Speaker 3 i thought aliens were trying to abduct me something like this so i flew for the window outside

Speaker 3 and then i suddenly wake up suddenly i found myself in the bed I thought that those aliens, they just erased my memory. And that is why I couldn't recall what happens after limitation

Speaker 3 but

Speaker 3 when analyzed it became clear that there were no aliens it was something else but all those qualities of of that first experience was so amazing even though i was scared to death

Speaker 3 during the experience i wanted to to experience it over and over again because I knew that it was the most interesting, the most amazing thing thing I could ever imagine.

Speaker 3 So I dedicated my life to this topic from a very early age.

Speaker 1 So after this first experience,

Speaker 1 were you able to effortlessly go back into this type of lucid dream? Or did it, was it dependent on sleep paralysis for you in the beginning?

Speaker 3 At the beginning, yes, it happens almost exclusively after sleep paralysis. But very quickly, I realized that it could happen in a different way.
For example, I could become conscious while dreaming.

Speaker 3 So I would understand that I was in a dream. Then it became clear that I could control it.
I mean, I could induce it somehow.

Speaker 3 So we are talking about a phenomenon when we have consciousness during REM sleep. During REM sleep, usually we see vivid dreams.
Most of our dreams happen during REM sleep, at least vivid dreams.

Speaker 3 And when you have consciousness, full understanding of what's going on during REM sleep, you experience exactly the same reality as you experience right now.

Speaker 3 But it is not real world, of course, it's not a parallel world, anything like this.

Speaker 3 This world is created directly in your brain, and your sensations, your perceptions are exactly the same as you experience right now.

Speaker 3 So imagine that right now you are in a lucid dream, in your sensations, all your perceptions would be exactly the same, but there's a small difference.

Speaker 3 Now you don't have any physical limitations.

Speaker 1 Wow, that's amazing. And, you know,

Speaker 1 is it tied at all to out-of-body experiences, or is that something completely different?

Speaker 1 I mean, do you feel like your consciousness is going somewhere else, or is it just an overactive mind and you're able to participate in that? narrative that your mind is creating?

Speaker 3 That is why we have this word, the term, the phase states.

Speaker 3 The reason is that when we talk about lucid dreams, actually we are talking, it's a well-known fact that we are talking about REM sleep plus consciousness.

Speaker 3 When we talk about sleep paralysis, it's a well-known scientific fact that we talk about REM sleep plus consciousness. Initially, I thought that all those states were different.

Speaker 3 But eventually, with practice, with experiments, it came clear that all those phenomena had the same root. And that is why we needed a new word to unite them.

Speaker 3 The phase state unites any situation when you have consciousness during REM sleep.

Speaker 1 So when it comes to people who are in a lucid dream, you know, you think about

Speaker 1 ancestral communities who say they go into lucid dreams and then will talk to other chiefs or, you know, other hunters to let them know where something is. You know, what is going on there?

Speaker 1 Like, is it possible for two consciousnesses to connect when they're in lucid sleep? Or are you saying that all of that is just imagined in our brain?

Speaker 3 I try this many, many times.

Speaker 3 And because I have met hundreds and thousands of lucid dreamers in my life with different points of views, with different hypotheses, nobody was able to prove that direct communication is possible.

Speaker 3 But if we use technology, for example, like this from our laboratory, we can connect people in dreams. But it is a little bit more complex because it requires the internet, it requires servers,

Speaker 3 but we can do this.

Speaker 1 Okay, so how does that work? I'm just to explain it. So it looks like a metal box with cords plugged in and three different sides.
And then does it connect to your head?

Speaker 3 Yeah, this is EG. You just read brainwaves, specific brain waves.
It is

Speaker 3 EOG, you trace eye movements during sleep. For example, this is EMG, you trace sleep paralysis when body is paralyzed, and so on and so on.

Speaker 3 And when experienced lucid dreamers sleep this device, we can remotely from our laboratory trace what's going on. our server knows when they are asleep our server knows when they are in a lucid dream.

Speaker 3 And we can read some signals from lucid dream.

Speaker 3 And they can send signals from inside their dreams to our server using EMG sensors or eye movements. Why is it possible? Even during sleep paralysis, there's small electrical activity in our muscles.

Speaker 3 And when we put EMG sensors on the muscles,

Speaker 3 we can easily see, for example, when you are talking in your dreams, we can easily see that you are moving or you're doing something by your hands or you're walking using our sensor.

Speaker 3 And also, we can send signals to you, for example, via sounds, earbuds, or lights.

Speaker 3 This device can do this.

Speaker 3 As a result, we can remotely connect to people's dreams and send to them simple signals and read their replies. So, that's how it all works, walls very quickly.

Speaker 1 So, just to understand what's possible, so it's possible to track what's going on within someone's dreams, and it's possible for you to give input to those dreams.

Speaker 1 But you might be able to see a hand is moving, but you wouldn't necessarily is the technology to the point where you could see if they were playing tennis versus petting a dog or something with their hand?

Speaker 3 We cannot know any specific moments. In theory, we can do this.
Just wait a little bit, one year or more, and we could be able to

Speaker 3 understand

Speaker 3 some details about their dreams. Right now, we can know only that they move a certain part of their body or they pronounce certain sounds.

Speaker 3 But this technology evolves very quickly, meaning that eventually we will be able to read any language, any words from your dream, from your sleep. It is achievable, it's just

Speaker 1 very complex and expensive, but it's just a matter of time when this technology will appear in our life you know as far as measuring that type of thing you know what's what would be the benefit to it you know and i wonder if there's a benefit if someone was in a coma or something to know if they were dreaming or what they're dreaming about uh you know but like what outside of monitoring dreams um i guess what's the benefit of of the technology Can it help someone get into lucid dreaming or is it to help people dream together?

Speaker 3 We are working in this direction as well, trying to develop technology which would allow you to experience lucid dreams without any effort.

Speaker 3 Because right now, even though you can achieve it, but it requires knowledge, practice, it's hard. This technology, I mean, communicating with asleep people, sooner or later,

Speaker 3 there will be technology. which will allow people to induce lucid dreams easily.
And then at the next step, they will need to share information between each other.

Speaker 3 Or, for example, you have seen something interesting and useful in your dreams, and you can transfer this information in real time from your dreams.

Speaker 3 A couple of years ago, we were able to transfer music from lucid dreams, people melodies from lucid dreams.

Speaker 3 We were able to control smart home from lucid dreams switching off and on lights or radio or electrical kettle from dreams.

Speaker 3 Just recently, we have accomplished another study. We were controlling this remote control car from dreams.
We were controlling it, avoiding obstacles from dreams.

Speaker 3 And we need this technology to connect people from dreams between each other and with the internet. Because, for example, right now we are communicating via internet, we see each other.

Speaker 3 But if we could do this, if we could do this in Ramsley, we could could just sit somewhere, anywhere, for example, in Paris, talking to each other with full sensations, not just scream.

Speaker 3 It would feel as if we would see each other. So we need technology to connect dream worlds.
And that's what we are doing.

Speaker 1 Wow. So, Michael, I just want to back up because you said two really fascinating things.
So let's say you and I, in our REM, in our lucid dream, were decided to meet in Paris.

Speaker 1 So if we both went there there and then the next day when we woke up, we would, it should, we would be able to explain the same words that we said, the same conversation.

Speaker 1 Okay, so it's like you are experiencing that with someone. And then you said in this lucid dream state, you've tested this and people were able to control their smart devices.

Speaker 1 Do you mean from their dream, they could turn off, turn off something or like they physically, they did not have to wake up?

Speaker 3 For example, you must strain this particular muscle. And you know that when you strain this muscle, the car goes forward.

Speaker 3 And in your dream, you know that you're asleep, but somewhere in reality, maybe in another country, in another city, there is a car and you control it.

Speaker 3 And when you strain this muscle, you know that the car should move. Once you hear some signals about obstacles, for example, the car has sensors.

Speaker 3 And once it sees, an obstacle it sends to you signal that there's an obstacle and you use another hand to make a turn, and then you move forward.

Speaker 1 Holy cow. So, from a dream, someone can control the physical world.

Speaker 3 Actually, the main points that we connect from our server to people who are asleep, and then our server can do anything.

Speaker 3 We can connect you to any technology, smart home, cars.

Speaker 3 So, that is why it's so important because you will be able to store information from dreams, transmitted from dreams in real time.

Speaker 3 And it is, it is really

Speaker 3 amazing.

Speaker 1 It's interesting that you said about like you could go to Paris in your dreams, let's say. But if you've never been to Paris, how is it going to look like Paris and feel like Paris?

Speaker 3 Remember that our subconsciousness,

Speaker 3 which can generate forests with all the details, with all the bugs and leaves, just in a fraction of seconds,

Speaker 3 knows

Speaker 3 much more than we can do when we are away.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 even though you may not may never visit Paris for real, your consciousness knows about Paris so much, subconsciousness knows

Speaker 3 about Paris so much that it can generate extremely

Speaker 3 realistic picture and

Speaker 3 you won't notice any difference with the reality.

Speaker 1 Gosh, but doesn't that make you wonder how does your subconscious know about Paris? I mean, it's so fascinating.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that's why sometimes I'm puzzled by the resources of our brain. And when you are in the freeze state, you understand it immediately.
You see your actual resources and you're just shocked

Speaker 3 by how much they are bigger than your abilities in

Speaker 3 wakefulness. And that is why it's so important to conquer random sleep

Speaker 3 because

Speaker 3 it will give us a bit access to these incredible resources

Speaker 3 which are inside of us.

Speaker 3 Anything could be in our brain, maybe it's something else. But the fact is that we have it and we can control it.
And so we will use it a lot in the future.

Speaker 1 And then just quickly based on this Paris conversation, like, are you doing any experiments to see,

Speaker 1 I mean, can people truly create an act, I mean, it sounds like people truly can paint an accurate picture of some places they've never been, right?

Speaker 1 Like, is there any research to try to determine if what they're describing when they come back from a place if it's if it matches reality?

Speaker 3 There are no actual research, but I can pretty accurately predict it. Imagine that both of us right now, we have those devices, those future devices, and we communicate right now in Paris.

Speaker 3 We are sitting in a cafe, beachful café, we see the Elfield Tower right now, we are communicating. And when we wake up

Speaker 3 when we share our knowledge if we use technology what we say what we have shared with each other will be 100 accurate or maybe 90 accurate so it will be very accurate but surrounding

Speaker 3 could be a little bit different for example i would i would see a little bit different cafe than you so details other details which are not generated by our server

Speaker 3 could be completely separate. Even though we share information with each other and the information is accurate, actual perceptions of everything else could be a little bit different.

Speaker 3 But it is just a feature of this technology. So because we are used to see direct correlation between

Speaker 3 everything,

Speaker 3 but

Speaker 3 RAM worlds, REM space is different. And we should keep in mind that some information will be very accurate.

Speaker 3 And some information, especially which is unrelated to your goals, could be completely different.

Speaker 1 Gosh, that is unbelievable.

Speaker 1 So, you know, as far as things that we explored in the series, like altered states, you know, like could altered states of consciousness, like the phase, as you've coined it, have a role in understanding phenomena like telepathy or siabilities or clairvoyance.

Speaker 1 You know, do you think there's a connection at all?

Speaker 3 Of course, I'm pretty sure that the free state is one of the most profound alter states. And of course, it is related to many phenomena.

Speaker 3 Keep in mind that when you communicate with an object in your dream, actually you talk to your subconsciousness because everything is controlled by your subconsciousness.

Speaker 3 And you can just literally talk and discuss things with your subconsciousness, which is thousands of times more advanced than you. You can obtain information, knowledge, and so on and so on.
So

Speaker 3 there could be so many things unknown that

Speaker 3 we should be very cautious when we talk about its resources.

Speaker 1 So do you think it's possible for a non-speaking individual to connect then with a parent or other people through this technology and dreams to help communicate their desires and thoughts?

Speaker 3 Yeah, of course, of course. Because, for example, when we talk about communication and dreams, we are talking about different types of communication.

Speaker 3 Because right now we are talking and we use sounds.

Speaker 3 When we study sleep, we have to rely on something else, like brain waves, like electrical activity of your muscles. It means that you can directly read some information, potentially could be

Speaker 3 ready to use thoughts or sensations or emotions. And you can transfer them directly without translating into languages.
So that's fascinating.

Speaker 1 So even though someone might not speak when they're awake, due to

Speaker 1 how the brain, you know, the brain can, you know, just like people can play basketball in their dreams without playing basketball in real life, you could speak in your dreams without being able to speak in waking life.

Speaker 1 So, so technically, there should be a way that non-speaking individuals should be able to communicate, you're saying, with parents or friends or teachers.

Speaker 3 First of all, it's not only about words. We're used to living in the world

Speaker 3 where we communicate through letters, sounds, languages. But in reality,

Speaker 3 we just describe our emotions and thoughts.

Speaker 3 If we are able to trace some signals from our brain, we can extract thoughts and emotions directly without translating them into languages.

Speaker 3 And second thing, actually, in partial, it is possible even right now. It's just a matter of resources, time, and money to do this.

Speaker 3 It may look like a sci-fi, something impossible for people who don't do things like this, like we do.

Speaker 1 but it is achievable even right now it's not about future okay so you know when people how do you help people enter the phase?

Speaker 1 From what I've read, you have a technique that's very practical and structured. Could you walk us through the basics of how people get into this phase state?

Speaker 3 There are three primary ways how to induce the phase states.

Speaker 3 The most hardest one is just when you fall asleep and you try to maintain your consciousness, trying to fall asleep, but keeping your consciousness awake. It's the hardest one.

Speaker 3 Second, the most widespread around the world method is when you fall asleep with a strong intention to become conscious once you see a vivid dream, once you are dreaming, and you just fall asleep with this background thinking, when you imagine what you would do this, something emotional, something interesting.

Speaker 3 There's another method. It is when you perform specific actions upon awakening.

Speaker 3 Because when we wake up, every time we have around one minute, something like this, to re-induce REM sleep by specific mental actions.

Speaker 3 And that means that when you wake up, you have consciousness, you have understanding.

Speaker 3 So you wake up, and for example, you imagine yourself that you are walking outside your house, you are touching something, you are scrutinizing something.

Speaker 3 So you just imagine some actions, some physical actions, some sensations.

Speaker 3 And suddenly, in a few seconds, you understand that you are not imagining it. It's not a visualization in your head.
Suddenly, you feel everything

Speaker 3 and it becomes actual reality for you. You don't feel your physical body in your bed anymore.
You're just immersed in a different reality.

Speaker 1 So, as you're waking up, you visualize something with detail: walking down the stairs, scrabbing coffee, what it smells like.

Speaker 3 Yeah, trying to see the details. And the more you are immersed in this visualization, the more chances there is that just in a few seconds, all your

Speaker 3 visualized sensations will be transformed into actual sensations.

Speaker 3 It works quite efficiently. All you do is just to try this method upon awakening.
Maybe it won't work first attempt, second attempt, but could easily work third attempt.

Speaker 3 With practice, it becomes more and more efficient.

Speaker 1 Geez, okay. And then are there practical benefits? I mean, we kind of touched on this, but that you can, you know, do or access in the phase state that are underappreciated.

Speaker 1 Like, is there a potential to heal yourself or to create something that maybe you wouldn't be able to create in waking life or for problem solving or advanced math?

Speaker 1 I mean, is the phase state beneficial to humanity and us as individuals?

Speaker 3 Of course, of course. For example, the highest number of scientific papers on recent dream application is about psychology, how it could help you to reduce fears, nightmares, phobias.

Speaker 3 And it is so efficient because when you experience something in this state, for your brain, it is reality. It means that you can emulate any situation which may affect your psychological state.

Speaker 3 You can train, you can obtain skills.

Speaker 3 help to reduce some psychological issues.

Speaker 3 You can obtain information.

Speaker 3 In especially, this topic is extremely important for people with disabilities

Speaker 3 because imagine a paralyzed person

Speaker 3 and this topic in general could look like entertainment for most of the people, but for people who are limited in their physical abilities, this technology will provide actual reality

Speaker 3 and they will be able to do some simple things they miss and so on. Reality.
It's going to be like a true freedom for humanity.

Speaker 1 Well, and then, you know, a lot of non-speaking individuals that I've met and that I've featured in telepathy days talk about going somewhere at night.

Speaker 1 They'll talk about going to school or going to the realms where they learn information, or they talk about talking to a higher power and gleaning things they didn't know or learning a language they didn't know.

Speaker 1 I mean, do you think that is

Speaker 3 connected to an out-of-body experience or do you think that's connected to this like this remote sleep where they might be lucid dreaming how from a from your point of view and what you know how would you explain that at least partially and i'm fully confident they experience the phase state from time to time i can give you a very simple example just two days ago i was interviewed by kids from winetka from cool kids and when they there were around 20 30 kids and when when I asked them about lucid dreams, the body experience, sleep paralysis, almost all of them had raised their hands.

Speaker 3 So some of them have experienced it quite often. And it means that it is very, very widespread phenomenon.
And I'm 100%

Speaker 3 sure that they experienced it also.

Speaker 3 And sometimes when they describe these things, these stories, it's hardly

Speaker 3 they are referring to Ramsley. We don't know actual limits of our brain.
And it could be in our brain, could be something more, but

Speaker 3 at least

Speaker 3 sometimes they experience it for sure and they may find something useful for them, something interesting for them in this state to provide them with some additional options for their life.

Speaker 3 So actually it's a very promising field.

Speaker 1 You know,

Speaker 1 some people view out-of-body experiences,

Speaker 1 which sounds very similar to some of these lucid dreams, you know, where you feel yourself leaving your body and snapping back in.

Speaker 1 And some people view out-of-body experiences from a spiritual lens, and some people approach them scientifically. I'm wondering where you fall in this and how you navigate that divide in your work.

Speaker 3 I can give you a very simple example.

Speaker 3 People who think that they practice lucid dreams, people who think that they practice out-of-body experience, they use exactly the same method.

Speaker 3 So it's just a matter of fear, it's just about your philosophy, it's about your worldview. When I was a teenager, I thought that I was living my body for sure by my soul, something like this.

Speaker 3 Right now, I don't think like this because

Speaker 3 I can test it, because I experience it often, I can make some experiments to prove my point of view.

Speaker 1 How do you explain? You know, because Leslie Keene wrote a book called Surviving Death.

Speaker 1 And I think it's in the first chapter of that book, it talks about someone who had this out-of-body, it might have been more of a near-death experience where they saw the doctor and what they were using,

Speaker 1 you know, as far as instruments go. And then they saw who was in the room and who was leaving the room.
And then they saw a shoe.

Speaker 1 on where they went up and up and up and then outside of the hospital and saw a shoe on a ledge outside of a window. And people went to try to find the shoe to see, did this really happen?

Speaker 1 And they did did find the shoe

Speaker 1 on a ledge that you couldn't even really see out a window. You had to kind of look out, and it took a long time to determine if the shoe was there.
I mean, how do you explain that?

Speaker 1 Like, if you're in this REM lucid dreaming state, can you zoom out your perspective to see more than just right? Or are you actually leaving your body?

Speaker 1 Could you be looting, or your consciousness leaving your body?

Speaker 3 First of all, let me remind you that we cannot explain everything through REM sleep. There could be difference, more phenomena.

Speaker 3 And second, actually, we have conducted a couple of studies directly referring to near-deaf experience.

Speaker 3 And we see that descriptions of sensations could be very, very similar. It does not mean that it is the same thing all the time, but we see some correlations.

Speaker 3 And there's a very interesting fact fact that some people describe near-death experience without any proof that they were dead. So, for example,

Speaker 3 they weren't dead, they were alive, but they had this common experience of living bodies, seeing tonnel with light, something like this, seeing their deceased, passed away relatives.

Speaker 3 So, they described exactly the same sensations, even though they were alive.

Speaker 1 Fascinating. You know,

Speaker 1 what do you see as a future of research into altered states of consciousness? Is this just going to explode?

Speaker 1 I know you said it's going to be like AI, but what is that going to mean for our everyday lives, for technology, for the workplace?

Speaker 3 If we talk about REM sleep, and I could freely talk about because I see what's going on here, I'm pretty sure that it will reshape our understanding of who we are.

Speaker 3 what we do, what for we do something in the real world.

Speaker 3 Because once again, if REM sleep compensates things you miss in reality, you will think twice before working too much, just to earn some money, to experience some experience.

Speaker 3 And it will reshape our understanding, our communication.

Speaker 3 It will affect civilization significantly. That's why sometimes I think REM sleep will reshape our civilization.
as much as electricity, as the internet.

Speaker 3 It will change understanding of who we are, what we can do. And it is inevitable.
It will happen very soon. Prepare yourself for a new reality.
It's upcoming.

Speaker 3 And we all will pay much more attention to our dreams, to Ramsley.

Speaker 3 It is

Speaker 3 something that you won't imagine your life.

Speaker 3 without very soon. So just prepare mentally, prepare for yourself for a new upcoming reality.

Speaker 1 That's it for this episode of the Talk Tracks, but new episodes will now be released every other Sunday, so stay tuned as we work to unravel all the threads, even the veiled ones, that knit together our reality.

Speaker 1 Please remember to stay kind, stay curious, and that being a true skeptic requires an open mind. Thank you to my amazing collaborators.
Original Music was created by Elizabeth P.W.

Speaker 1 Original logo and cover art by Ben Kendor Design. The audio mix and finishing by Sarah Ma.

Speaker 1 Our amazing podcast coordinator, Jill Pachesnik, the telepathy tapes coordinator and my right hand, Catherine Ellis, and I'm Kai Dickens, your writer, creator, and host.

Speaker 1 Thank you again for joining us.