453: Enes Kanter Freedom—In the Name of Freedom

Hey, it's the way I heard it.

Sorry, I'm a bit

wow, you really came out hot and then just flopped.

Well, you know,

because this is a weird one.

I'm Mike.

That's Chuck, by the way.

If you're new to the show, In the Name of Freedom is the name of this episode.

My guest is Ennis Freedom.

I'm stumbling all over the place because I've already interviewed him.

And to be honest, I already talked to him about a lot of the things that we talk about in this conversation.

Right.

But I don't think there's been a more consequential guest on this show, maybe ever.

And I was struck the first time, but only struck in the way you can be struck when you're interviewing somebody over Zoom or Riverside or whatever that was.

Yeah, it's different when a seven-foot-tall man is right before you and is telling you the story of his life and how he gave up tens of millions of dollars to be a civil rights activist.

The story of his young life.

Yes, right.

He was not an old man at all.

No, if you don't know it, the short version is this guy lived the American dream.

He came over from Turkey as a teenager, very tall, hell of a basketball player, played most notably for the Utah Jazz and the Boston Celtics, but a bunch of others in between, the Trailblazers and so forth.

It's a center.

He was very good.

Great, really.

Then he started mouthing off.

With his shoes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He was concerned about what was happening in his home in Turkey and wrote some things on his shoes to bring that to the attention of the media.

And, oh, his teammates loved it.

They congratulated his bravery for taking a stand because Turkey was not pleased.

But then his reach exceeded his grasp and his shoes started to say some things about Tibet and China.

And then, of course, the NBA could not live with that.

And so long story short, Ennis sacrificed pretty much everything, his career, his family, tens of millions of dollars.

And now he's written a book, which I sure hope you'll pick up.

It's called In the Name of Freedom.

And, you know, it took me a long time to get to it, but spoiler alert, the thing that was bugging me through the whole conversation, not bugging me, but just I was trying to get my head around it because it it all sounded kind of familiar.

But it really does come back to the difference between a person who will do something brave that has nothing to lose and a person who will do something brave

that has everything.

That costs them everything.

Right.

Like the guys who signed the Declaration.

You know, there's also a rumination, too, I think, on courage and like especially courage under fire.

And I think there's a difference between a person who is simply fearless and will therefore do damn near anything in battle because their brain just doesn't process fear the same way.

Right.

Right.

Versus people who are scared half to death or maybe all the way and do it anyway.

It's hard to know who you are, I think, until

you're confronted with.

the kinds of choices that Ennis was confronted with.

But my God, he made his choice and he paid a price.

And now,

you know, nobody's got a crystal ball, but if he's remembered decades from now the same way we remember Muhammad Ali, I wouldn't be surprised at all.

Yeah, and look, first of all, he's a really gentle giant.

He's a sweet guy who really loves people of all, you know, races and religions.

And he didn't start that way.

No, he started off indoctrinated, unfortunately, like a lot of young kids are in that part of the world.

Yeah.

He had a very dim view of Americans, a very dim view of Christians, an even dimmer view of Jewish people.

And

we talk about how all of those views were challenged and ultimately overcome by the kindness of individuals and some remarkable advice from his mom that I don't want to spoil.

I'll let him tell you that.

But

this episode is coming out on a day that has become a horrific anniversary the world over.

And that topic comes up as well, Gaza and Israel and all the trouble in the world and all the trouble in the NBA and

one guy's story about how he just broke through all of it.

It's very inspirational.

And honestly, that word makes my teeth hurt.

I try not to use it.

But it absolutely fits.

I mean, I was kind of spellbound and a little emotional.

Well, you said it right when the conversation ended.

One more dude who's better than us.

Yes, that is 100% true.

Which wouldn't have been a bad title for this either.

But I'm going with the name of his book, which again, you'll just love it.

It's going to be a bestseller, and it's going to be an important read for you, your kids, your friends.

It's called In the Name of Freedom by Ennis Cantor Freedom, who you will meet either for the first or second time right after this.

At 610 and 250 pounds, Ennis Freedom is a giant American, but he's also an American giant.

Why?

Because he has integrity.

That's why.

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I also appreciate their desire to raise money for my foundation with Microworks t-shirts and sweatshirts at American-Giant.com slash Mike.

When you see the Microworks logo on an American Giant garment, you'll know that the net proceeds of that purchase will help fund our next round of work ethics scholarships.

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American Giant, American Made.

American Giant, American Made.

Thank you for coming.

Of course, man.

We were just chatting about how podcasts evolve and how things change.

And I remember interviewing you over, what is it, Riverside, I guess.

Riverside or Zoom.

One of them.

One of them.

Yeah.

And, you know, it's so weird, man, how you can go from being being so grateful to have a way to connect with people, and it just makes your life simple.

And then within, like, no time at all, you're so dissatisfied.

It's like, this is just not, this is a prophylactic.

Like,

on Riverside, you seem like a normal person.

You can't tell somebody seven feet tall.

In reality, I'm a little scary.

The giant.

What a pleasure it is to meet you in person.

I know last time we spoke, what was it, Chuck, two years ago?

I believe so, yeah.

I had just seen you in Florida at the Patriot Awards.

I was there.

You were there.

Your story, I mean, I don't know who I was sitting next to, to my right or to my left, but they were both weeping.

Oh, man.

That means a lot.

Well, it meant a lot to the people in the audience.

And then when I spoke to you, I remember saying to you, when's the book, man?

You've got to sit down.

I know you're busy saving the world and making free throws and whatnot, but you've got to get all this down.

So two years later, you took my advice.

You've written the book.

It's called In the Name of Freedom.

Congratulations.

Thank you.

I appreciate that.

Finally, I mean,

this was my dream.

Like you said,

it's been two years now.

And for the last two years, I've been trying to get my family out of Turkey.

So my plate was so full.

And unfortunately, we failed every time.

And then I'm like, you know what, I think I'm just going to start.

I don't want to say I'm like moving on or giving up, but then I'm like, you know, I just got to keep myself busy and then just started to write the book.

Well, I think maybe for the benefit of the listener, I ought to ask you just to give me a thumbnail of what we talked about in the past and what brought you to this point, because it's a lot.

But,

I mean,

your family, man.

Make it simple for people to understand what in the world led you to the NBA and then out of the NBA and finally to here.

I think, you know, to people to understand better, I want to like tell you a little bit about my childhood.

You know, growing up in Turkey, I mean it was a very difficult childhood.

If you are a politician in Turkey and if you want to be elected again, you do a couple things.

You attack America, you attack Christians, and you attack Jewish people.

And unfortunately, the base is so uneducated, they're like, wow, look at our leader.

He's standing tall against America, tall against the West, tall against the Jewish people.

Let's vote for him.

So that was the case when I was growing up.

I remember I was nine years old.

I went downstairs to play with my friends.

And I remember my friends, which like who are not even teenagers, they were burning American flags.

They were breaking crosses.

And I remember like asking one of my friends, like, guys, like, what are you doing?

They said, well, we should hate America.

We should hate Christians.

They're devil.

They're evil people.

Is this in the 80s?

Mid-80s, 90s.

I'm born in 1992 so i won't be talking about like

2000

you were born in 92 yeah so i'm talking about like 2000s um

i'm like what are you guys doing they said well we should hate america we should hate the christians we should hate the west and i remember one of my friends which was my best friend he gave me a flag to burn it he gave me an american flag he gave me a lighter and he said burn it i looked down i'm like this is not a right thing to do.

I threw the flag down.

I ran upstairs to my mom.

I was like, mom, my friends are telling me to hate Americans, hate Christians, hate Jewish people.

Like, what do I do?

My mom said, I'm not going to tell you what to do, but do not hate anyone before you meet them.

So that day, I give a promise to my mom.

I promise I'm not going to hate anyone before I meet him.

You know, like, this doesn't happen in, well, in some areas, happen in Turkey, but in the Middle East.

So in schools, in front of classes, you have an American flag and you have an Israeli flag.

And if you don't step on those flags, you are not allowed to attend the class.

You don't step on them.

Yep, you have to step on them.

You walk into the classroom and you literally tread on the Israeli flag and the American flag.

And if you don't, you will get bullied the rest of your school year by your teachers, by your, I don't know, classmates.

So the environment I was growing up in was that toxic.

You know, finally, my dad said we have to move to West.

We have to move to Istanbul.

And when we moved to Istanbul, obviously, things were a little better, but it was still toxic.

I'm sorry, your hometown was what?

It's a city called Van, V-A-N.

It's like the east, very east side of Turkey.

People were not really that educated compared to Istanbul or Ankara, the capital.

And then when I moved to Istanbul, things got a little better.

But then, you know, my dad was like, this is enough.

You are going to America.

I even remember asking my dad, like, dad, you really want me to go to the devil's nest?

He's like, you know, it's amazing because he said, go and see yourself.

I said, okay.

What did your dad do for a living?

He was, well, before he got fired and before they thrown him in jail, he was like one of the biggest scientists in Turkey.

And my mom was a very successful nurse.

So they were very well educated compared to like other families.

And I'm 17 years old.

I

took a chance, got on a flight.

I was about to land in New York for the first time ever.

And I remember like when I was flying, I saw the Statue of Liberty.

I'm like, my man, this is so crazy because like I've been seeing that statue in movies and now I can, I'm like flying over it.

Was your association though?

I mean, growing up the way you did with that level of, you know, deliberate, maybe indoctrination is too strong a word, but certainly an ethos.

Did you associate liberty with that statue?

What did liberty even mean to you at that point?

That meant nothing because growing up, we really didn't have like much freedom or liberty.

And everything was controlled by the governments, all the media outlets, newspaper,

I don't want to say all of them, but like many of them was controlled by the governments.

And when Erdogan took off, obviously it became the worst in probably Turkish history, but pretty much everything was controlled by the government.

Was Erdogan elected in what you would think of as a democratic election?

Well, in the beginning, yes.

And he actually, like, when I have a conversation with like in people like in the Obama administration, the Biden administration, the Trump administration, they said, well, till 2012, he

looked like he was going to carry Turkey to a

better and democratic country.

He was talking about the Western values and American values.

And then once the corruption happened and he got caught back in 2013, everything changed.

And he was caught exactly doing what?

The corruption scandal.

Yeah.

You know, he was stealing from people and him and his family members were involved in it and the police caught him.

And then after that, you know, he was just putting innocent people in jail.

And yet he was still elected?

Yeah, independently.

Yep, he was a prime minister then.

So,

heck of a thing, man, what people will do.

Right.

So, you know, I came to America for the first time.

I was 17 years old.

It was actually very crazy because it was my first high school practice.

And I remember two of my teammates who were Christians, they walked up to me in a locker room and said, Listen, man, we know that you're from Turkey and we know that you're Muslim.

And if you want, after the practice, we would like to take you to a go get some halal food and take you to a mosque

I promise you I turned around and left the locker room because I just didn't know what they were trying to do but then I remembered a promise

don't hate them till you meet exactly so I came back I was like you know what what I have to lose let's go they were so respectful they were so kind

they took me to a mosque they even took their shoes off right and then we went to go get some Turkish food it was so amazing so delicious delicious.

That two teammates changed my whole life.

They put a little question mark in my head.

I started to question.

For the last 17 years, I was hearing about how devil,

how evil the Americans are.

Exactly.

So, like, that two teammates put a question mark in my head.

So, were you in, were you?

Utah or Boston?

So, in high school, I went to California, Simi Valley, and And it was just an amazing experience.

Stonish Prep, beautiful area.

I mean, I just love California because of the weather.

It was so beautiful.

So and then after my high school year, I met a friend who was a girl.

I remember one day, you know, she called me and said, you know, I want you to come to my house.

for a dinner.

Would you like to come Friday?

I was like, well, I'm busy Friday.

Can I come Saturday?

They said, no, no, no, it has to be Friday.

I was like, Why?

They said, Well, because that's our special dinner.

I'm like, What are you talking about?

They said, Well, it's a Shabbat dinner.

I said, What's a Shabbat dinner?

I said, What's a Shabbat dinner?

They said, Well, just because we are Jewish, as soon as I heard the word Jewish, I hang up the phone.

I promise you.

And I sit there for a second.

I'm like, I cannot believe I just had a conversation with someone who is Jewish.

Like, am I going to go to hell?

I promise you.

Having an American or Christian friend was, I guess, like, sure, whatever.

But like, having a Jewish friend, man, I'm like, what am I doing?

Yeah.

You know?

So then I remember the promise again.

I gave it to my mom.

I was like, God,

I don't know if I could do this.

So that night I barely slept.

And in the morning, I called her.

I was like, you know what?

I'm just going to call her and say, I'm going to go.

So I called her.

I I was like listen I'm gonna come but listen I don't eat pork I don't drink alcohol they said good we don't eat pork either I was like oh interesting so did she say hey man you hung up on me what was that all about no she was she was the kindest person man she was so nice she knew that I just I mean my body my mind was poisoned so she was just taking her time

Before I went to her house, I called one of my friends that lives in America.

I was like, listen, I'm going to go to my friend's house.

And he was like, so then why are you calling me?

He's like, well, she's Jewish.

He's like, you crazy?

What are you doing?

They eat babies.

They drink blood.

They're going to convert you.

You crazy.

Now, this isn't just like hyperbole.

Did your friend genuinely believe that?

Oh, yeah, of course.

I don't think you can just gloss over it.

A lot of people listening are like, yeah, but people, you know, propaganda and so forth.

Oh, no, no.

You genuinely believe the Jewish people are eating babies and drinking and drinking blood.

Yeah, that's what he said.

So I was like, listen,

my mom is one of the most important things to me, and I gave her a promise, and I cannot break that promise.

I gotta go.

I asked him, I want you to do one thing for me.

And he said, what is it?

If you don't hear from me for the next two hours, call the police.

This is the address I'm going to.

So I give him my friend her address, and I was like, if you don't hear from me for the next two hours, you got to call the police.

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Anyway, so I took her over, went to her house.

Before I got into her house, she kissed her hand and just slapped the door.

I'm like, what are you doing?

I said, oh, that's a Mezuza.

That's like a, that's like the prayer dad when we walk in the room that we kiss.

And I was like, oh, that's interesting.

So when I walk onto

her house, her mom greeted me with Turkish Delight.

And I was just very like, this is very interesting.

I was like, are they trying to brainwash me?

Why are they being so kind?

And what exactly is Turkish Delight?

Turkish July is like the most, I think like after Turkish Baklava, I don't want Greek people who's watching this to get mad.

Oh, we don't let the Greeks listen.

You're fine.

After Turkish Baklava is Turkish July, it's actually one of the most like famous thing that the Turks, the Turks put it out there.

Anyway, so and then we sit down in a Shabbat table.

The first they were just praying.

They put their hand over their face and they prayed and stuff and they light some candle and stuff.

They were were explaining everything to me step by step and then it was time for the to pour the wine or pour the grape juice and i'm like there's it's something red i'm thinking about like is this the blood that my blood is talking about it's the blood

or is it actually like they said so he gave it to me

so she gave me the little glass and i was like i'm not drinking this sorry she said well it's a grape juice you want me to try i was like you can go ahead and try i'm not gonna try anything

um

so that night, I remember I had one of the most amazing dinner I've ever had in my life.

The food was very similar, Middle Eastern food.

Some of the culture was very similar, the washing hands and all that stuff.

And her mom said, before I was about to leave, she said, don't fear for Shabbat, just come anytime.

This is your family.

When I got in the car, I got so emotional because there are millions of kids in the Middle East growing up anti-Semitic, anti-West, anti-American, anti-Christian, just because of those hate speeches.

I was like that day, that night, I promised to myself,

whatever happens in life, I'm going to do whatever I can to inspire those millions of kids in Middle East grown up without knowing anything, without knowing the other side.

Yeah, that just, that was a good thing.

So that was a big dinner.

The huge dinner.

Are you still in touch?

Yes, I'm actually still in touch with her.

She still helps me with a lot of things.

I mean, I usually like give names and stuff, but like whenever I give names, they usually get attacked by Turkish trolls.

So I keep

everyone's name secret.

How much of that is in the book?

The story you just said?

It is in the book.

Without giving any names.

Like, if you look at like the first couple pages, I usually use code names.

So the people won't, the Turkish government or whoever won't go after them or after their families.

And this dinner, how old again, were you when you had this dinner?

My God, like 18, 19?

Something like that?

Yep.

So that's a big moment.

Then very quickly, your NBA career unfolds and everything's coming up roses and you're just, you're in the land of opportunity and liberty and you're the center for, was it, Utah first?

Utah first.

And then the Celtics.

And then the Celtics, the Knicks,

OKC, Portland.

So I literally got a taste of like...

the whole America, every part of America.

But the beautiful thing was, you know, I went to the University of Kentucky.

Coach Cal, I think one of the best, you know, college coach out there, I had an amazing time.

Around that time, I was trying to learn English, and I couldn't literally learn any English for a year straight because I had no idea what people in Kentucky was saying because the accent was just so thick, man.

I had an English translator for whatever day.

I understand nothing.

I find that super interesting.

Is there a corollary in Turkey where in part of the country, you can be completely fluent in the language.

Is it Arabic, Farsi?

It's Turkish.

It's Turkish, but like you said, it's like America, like part of Turkey.

It's like

you talk with a thicker accent.

And like people from Istanbul or Ankara wouldn't understand what you're saying because your accent is thick and you use some like very different words and stuff.

And also like where I grew up, there were a lot of Kurdish people.

So some of them mix with Kurdish, with Turkish.

So

I'm also like part Kurdish and Turkish so many languages

I only speak two

it's actually very funny so I learned English I'm gonna give the crazy story so when I went to college I went to my one of my teammates I'm like listen man like I want to learn like the English that like like you guys speak is there like a show out there or like a TV series or a movie that you can give me that I can watch it and learn English he said yeah of course I was like what is it they said Jersey Shore

So it's crazy.

I started watching Jersey Shore, right?

I'm like, if this is America's about,

Americans are doomed.

This is crazy.

You got to watch Dirty Jobs.

You got to learn to talk real pretty on that one.

No, it was very hard for me to adjust American culture because the one day I woke up.

Before the practice, you usually eat something like a cereal or whatever.

So I pour a cereal brand and I mix it with the milk and I start eating it.

And all my teammates started to go crazy and and laugh at me.

I'm like, what are you guys doing?

Like, why are you guys laughing at me?

They said, this is not cereal.

This is Cheez-It.

You know, they said,

this is not a cereal.

I didn't know what Cheez-It was.

I was like, this is the first time I guess Americans like their cereal salty.

Anyway.

You had a bowl of Cheez-Its before.

That's great.

But yeah, then after that, I got drafted by Utah Tras.

I was very lucky because Mormons, very peaceful and kind people, they knocked my door so many times.

We had so many beautiful conversations.

But the reason I was very lucky because there's not much things going on in Utah.

Everything was shutting down at like 8, 9 p.m.

Not a big drinking town.

Definitely not.

So I was focusing on basketball.

It was perfect for me.

So just to kind of cut to the chase, because I know we did talk about a lot of this before, but I just want people to understand as best they can:

did it all go bad overnight?

Or did you,

when did you first take a stand that created the series of events that ultimately led to your banishment?

So, 2013, in December, there was a huge corruption scandal happened in Turkey.

President Erdogan and his family were involved in it.

And after that corruption scandal, after President Erdogan got, you know, got caught, well, he was a prime minister back then, he started to put innocent people in jail.

He started to shut down media outlets.

He started to put you know persecutors in jail.

And I'm like, I don't care who you are, but if you are fighting against free media, I'm going to say something.

So I literally put a tweet out there.

Because of the NBA platform, it became a huge conversation in the United States and Turkey.

You're at the Celtics at this point?

I was with Utah.

With Utah.

Yeah.

So that really bothered the Turkish government.

They sent a lot of signals and say, he better stop talking about the issues.

You know, first, my dad was scientist they fired him my sister she went to medical school for six years and she still cannot find a job and I think the saddest one was my little brother because he wanted to be like his big brother played basketball in NBA but because of the same last name he was getting kicked out of every team so my family was getting affected so much they had to put a statement out there and said we are disowning NS.

So the letter actually is still out there on the internet.

I remember going to a practice that day.

It was definitely one of the toughest days of my life.

And the Turkish government didn't believe that letter.

They sent you?

I don't have any communication with my family.

So I never really had a conversation to ask.

But the Turkish government didn't believe that.

They sent police to my house in Turkey and they raided the whole house and they took every electronics away-phones, computers, laptops, iPads, because they wanted to see if I am still in contact with my family or not.

They couldn't find no evidence because I wasn't, but they still took my dad in jail for a while.

If you're someone who's not high profile, they will torture you in jails.

But if you're someone who's high profile, they will give you chemicals to mess up with your brain.

So when my dad got out, I asked my brother, like, how is he doing?

He said, he watches the walls all day.

And when we ask him what happened in there, he never talks about it.

And then after that, things got worse, you know, you know, they revoked my passport.

They tried to kidnap me from you know, Romania, they arrested me in Romania.

Wait, and is this

all because of a tweet?

Yeah,

well, I mean, after the tweet, I started to like talk about more and more issues because, like,

it's my country, and the thing is, I'm not talking about politics, this is human rights.

I was talking about the human rights violations and political prisoners.

So, I don't care which party you're in Turkey, you have to support what I have to say because this is not politics at all, this is pure human rights.

And then after that, you know, they

revoke my passport.

They put my name on Interpol list.

I am now only allowed to go to 29 countries in the world.

If I go any other country, then that's the only thing that immediate extradition.

Exactly.

Right.

They have to, because of whatever.

treaty they signed with Interpol, they have to send you back.

Even

they said this, which just blew my mind.

So I was going to Jerusalem to organize a basketball camp between Israelis and Palestinians.

So if you go from America directly to Jerusalem, the plane goes over Turkey and it's their airspace.

When I had a conversation with someone ambassadors here, they said, listen, this is dangerous because usually like the Belarus government, what they did was they call up the plane and say there's a bomb in a plane.

They bring the plane down, they do like a little fake search and they say we can't find anything, but they arrest the guy and they said, okay, keep going so when we had a conversation with the the airline company they literally went around turkey so i could just out so i could just be safe which i want to give a huge shout out to all the ambassadors uh to make this happen and then just you know recently i um had a conversation i went to visit Pope back in 2022.

I went to his audience, listened to his speech, beautiful speech.

And then literally the next day, they put a bounty on my head the Turkish government the Turkish government put a bounty on my head and I had a conversation with the FBI literally the next day they said listen this will trigger a lot of bad people we cannot protect you outside of America you have to get back to America immediately so I took a next flight came to America and now everywhere I go I have to let someone know that where I am even when I was playing for port on trailblazers the fbi came to my apartment to check in yeah exactly exactly.

Constantly.

And they said, apartment, not safe.

You have to move to a hotel.

So I moved to a hotel room.

When I was in a road game, they came to my room and they set up this thing called punic button.

They said, whenever you feel uncomfortable, push that button.

It will be there in two, three minutes.

So what's the NBA doing in the midst of all this?

So actually,

when the conversation obviously was not...

China, but was about Turkey.

They respected me so much.

You know, Adam Silver many times came came out and said, you know, we support our player.

Commissioner.

The Commissioner of the NBA.

They said, like, you know, the whole NBA, not only the commissioner, but like my coaches, my teammates,

the front office, they said, listen, you know, keep doing what you're doing.

You believe in, you're standing for what you believe in.

And, you know, we're praying for you.

Adam Silver actually have many times came out and said, we support our player.

And his interviews are out there on the internet.

You know, that meant a lot to me because, you know,

when basketball was my escape i mean i have not seen my family over 11 years so every time i step on the court it was just all about me and my teammates just having fun they were just like my brothers literally nba became my family yeah

until

until

until i started to talk about china tibet

um every issue actually not only tibet it's actually it started very very funny because i was doing a basketball basketball camp with Hakeem Jeffries in his district.

After the basketball camp, all the kids just lined up one by one and they were just taking pictures and getting autographs.

I remember there was this one parent.

I was taking a picture with his kid.

He literally called me out in front of everybody and he said,

How can you call yourself a human rights activist when your Muslim brothers and sisters are getting tortured and raped every day in concentration camp in China.

It's weird.

It's the Uyghurs.

So I was just, whoa, right?

And I'm still smiling for the camera for his kid.

I was like, I promise I'm going to get back to you.

So that day I canceled everything.

I went back to my hotel.

I'm like, I started to research.

Uyghurs, Tibetans, Hong Kongers, Taiwanese people, Mongolians, Falun Gongs, right?

My plate was full for the last 10 years because of I've been trying to get my family out of there.

But then I'm like, listen, if I call myself an activist, I don't care what it takes, I'm not only going to talk about on behalf of Turkish people.

I'm just going to go out there, despite their religion, culture, whoever they are,

just going to be the voice of voiceless people.

And then you just decided.

You just decided I've got this career and I've got a platform, I suppose, right?

Exactly.

I mean, you saw what a tweet could do.

What if you really lean into it?

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So actually this time I decided to not put a treat out there.

What I cared about was I was like, I want to inspire the next generation.

So Celtics fans are going to get mad, but so I grew up as a Lakers fan.

Obviously Kobe Bryant and Shaq and the championship, whatever teams.

So like when I was waking up at like 3:4 a.m.

in Turkey and watching the lakers and the first thing i was watching was the shoes obviously every kid in the world just loves shoes right so i came up with this idea i was like i'm going to reach out to all these artists around the world who's been oppressed by their government and i'm going to ask them to put all the struggles on a shoe and i'm going to go out there and play basketball so I looked at the rule book.

You turn your feet into a billboard.

Exactly.

I looked at the rulebook.

There's no rule against it because back in 2020 during COVID, NBA put us in a bubble.

And in that bubble, everybody was putting on their shoes.

Breonna Taylor, Black Lives Matter, George Floyd, I Can't Breathe.

So I'm like, there is no rule against it.

If they are allowed to put I Can't Breathe on their shoes, I should be allowed to put free De Uyghurs, free Tibet, or whatever.

So I was playing for the Celtics.

You're going to love this.

I was playing for the Celtics.

And our first game, it was a season opener for the Knicks.

It was at Madison Square Garden.

Literally every celebrity you can think of was at that game.

I'm talking about Spike Lee, Ben Stiller, Tracy Morgan.

All the cash.

Everybody.

So I put the shoes on.

My first shoes was the free Tibet.

I went out there, started the warm-up.

Literally, the game hasn't started yet.

One minute before the game, there was two gentlemen from the NBA.

They were walking for the Celtics.

they came up to me and said

take your shoes off I'm like excuse me they said your shoes has been getting so much attention internationally the game haven't started yet

you got to take them off

it was the perfect moment for me because I was just getting ready for my citizenship test So I was like, I closed my eyes.

I was like, okay, we have 27 amendments.

My first amendment, freedom of speech.

I turn around.

I'm like, no, I'm not taking them off.

I was like, I don't even care if I get fine.

They said, buddy, we're not talking about getting fine.

We're talking about getting banned.

They were literally threatening me to get banned from the NBA because of the shoes that I was wearing.

What a long way you came from the kid who hung up on the nice Jewish girl who invited him over for dinner.

I mean, that's amazing.

But okay, so that's a moment.

Like, and a lot of these moments, Annis, for me anyway, you know, not that I've been in anything that extreme, but you don't know it until you look back and you realize wow that was the thing that was going to change or alter the trajectory of my life

did you understand in the moment how consequential that was i understand later on

because

they were panicked after the first half I went back to Lockerbie, which I played zero minutes in the first half.

There was thousands of notifications on my phone.

I clicked on the one that my my manager sent me.

He said every Celtics game is banned in China.

It took them 24 minutes to ban every Celtics game on television.

Before the game started, because they saw you practicing?

Warming up.

I was laying the ball up.

I was not playing at all.

The game, I mean, there are like little cameras.

The game was televised like...

obviously nationally it's on espn or something so like before the game obviously they took like a little videos of the players and stuff.

So, the first game, it literally took them 24 minutes, the first quarter, 12 minutes, second quarter, 12 minutes, to ban every Celtic game on television.

I was like, well, that clearly shows my point.

The first half, I went

back out there, I warmed up a little more, and the second half, again, I played zero minutes.

The game went to overtime, I played, which I played every game, every preseason game before that.

We lost the game, obviously.

um

obviously anyways after the game literally i was getting like media requests from all over the world so i told my manager cancel everything i just didn't want my teammates to think i'm doing this for attention

after the game the mbpa called me which the player association i paid thousands of dollars every month to protect my rights against the nba

They said, you cannot wear those shoes ever again.

I even asked them, am I breaking the rules?

They said, no, like, don't, you cannot wear them ever again.

They pressured me so much, I was like, you know what?

I promise you guys, I'm not going to wear free t-bat shoes ever again.

They said, promise.

I said, promise.

I hang up the phone.

So, the second game, oh no, I wore free shoes.

See where this is going right now.

So, the second game, I didn't lie, though.

The second game I wore free Uyghur shoes, they called me after the game.

They said, You liar, you lied to us.

I was like, First of all, I didn't lie to you.

I never said I'm not going to wear free Uyghur shoes.

I just said, I'm just not going to wear free t-bat shoes.

The third game was like, was the end because we played against third or fourth game.

We played against Charlotte and who owned Charlotte Michael Jordan.

I ordered his shoes.

His most famous shoes called Concord.

I put made with slave labor.

Before the game, right?

I'm going to go out there and play with those.

I saw Michael Jordan on the stands and I was just like, this is it.

Like, this cannot get any more fun and better than this.

So I went out there with his shoes, play in front of Michael Jordan with his own shoes and put made with slave labor.

After the game, all my teammates walk up to me and said, buddy, this is your last year.

Have fun.

You're not going to be playing basketball ever again on an NBA court.

So say goodbye to basketball.

My agent called me and he said, listen, man, I work for you.

I don't work for an NBA, but this is our last year.

Just have fun.

If you say, I mean, you already did enough damage to NBA and everyone else around you, but if you say another word,

you're not going to be playing basketball ever again.

You're 29 years old you can play another six years you're not only throwing away six years you're literally throwing away between 30 to 40 million dollars

i said okay i hang up the phone never talk to him again

and february came i played my last game

and after the game was against the brooklyn nets were you still wearing shoes at this point that are upsetting people oh yeah of course i was like if this is my last year i'm just gonna go all out you might as well just get yourself tattooed.

I played against my last game against the Brooklyn Nets.

And then after the game, the next day was the tread deadline.

And after the game, everybody was giving me hugs and shaking my hand and pretty much like telling me goodbye.

Because they knew I was either going to get released by the Celtics or they were going to trade me to a team.

And that team was going to release me.

10 minutes before the tread deadline, I got traded to Houston Rockets, which is known by the China steam because of Yao Ming.

And then Houston Rockets literally released me in three minutes.

And three weeks after they released me, they put the games back on in Chinese television.

Did you ever get a sense of what kind of money was at stake?

Chinese rights, broadcast?

Like, I mean, obviously, the NBA made a financial decision, but to what degree?

So, more people watch NBA games in China than the American population last year.

So think about the shoe sales, the jersey sales, Tencent.

Think about

all the TV deals.

Tencent is the big company that's sort of like Facebook on steroids.

Exactly.

Every NBA player.

I don't want to say every, but like most of the NBA player, whenever their season over, what do you do?

You got to relax, right?

You go to a vacation with your family, you hang out, you just chill.

Before even they go to their vacation,

they go to to China to organize a basketball camp.

I even remember, I played in some teams.

I don't want to call out some names right now, but like

right after the all-star breaks, I'm talking about like March.

The season was about to end, like, well, April, if you don't make the playoffs, they were planning their China trip.

They said, Well, I want to go here, I'm going to go do this because I got a lot of business, I got a lot of money.

And I'm just like, I'm just very shocked.

I'm like, wow, this is crazy.

A player is literally planning their China trip before their family vacation.

I'm still stuck on the fact that 400 million people watched the NBA

in China.

Maybe more now.

And also like 40 NBA owners got tied up $10 billion

with Chinese government.

So

this is what I'm trying to get to.

It's not tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands or millions.

It's many, many, many billions of dollars.

Of course, yeah.

And that's every year.

It comes down to a freaking pair of sneakers, dude.

You put on a pair of shoes,

you poked the bear in the eye.

Actually, that's a bad.

That's that'd be Russia.

What is China?

You poked the panda bear in the eye.

Actually, it's f very funny because you know the the cartoon called the Winnie the Pooh?

Sure.

It's banned in China.

Winnie the Pooh is banned in China?

You know why?

No.

So

Xi Jinping, the president of China, they were making fun of him because they said, well, he looks like the Winnie the Pooh.

This dude banned literally the whole cartoon in the whole country.

So they call him like Winnie the Pooh.

It's very funny, but because my first interview, I wore a Winnie the Pooh t-shirt, and no one really got what I was saying, what I was trying to meant, but it was very funny.

Well, it's a, you know, Winnie the Pooh was Piglet, Eeyore, Tiger,

Tigger.

Wonderful thing about Tigger.

Tiggers, wonderful thing.

The tops are made out of rubber.

Their bottoms are made out of spring.

Bouncy, bouncy, bouncy, bouncy.

Bundles of fun, fun, fun.

The wonderful thing about tiggers is I'm the only one

yeah I grew up with with Winnie the but I had not I had not heard that fascinating so

just a quick little sidebar there you go it's right here come on man I could see it right if you could put the hat on the eyes the mouth the the nose

just no sense of humor though I mean really you know I mean

you ought to be able to laugh at that exactly man come on Like, you cannot just ban the whole cartoon because some people were saying he looks like him.

I'm going to get back to the NBA in a minute because it is a,

I mean, look,

I find it appalling, actually.

I appreciate the sport, and I have some friends who are season ticket holders, and some of them...

You know, I had heated conversations with the last time I talked to you, and they listened to the podcast, and I'm like, that was compelling.

And then I said,

and then you went back to your season tickets, didn't you?

Well, yeah, we're still going to watch.

Very, very, very, very, very difficult to get people to change that kind of behavior on this level.

But look, I wanted to talk to you in person about all of this because two things

have happened since I talked to you last.

The first is a guy sat right where you're sitting named Jan Yakelek, who writes for the Epoch Times.

And

he and I had a long conversation about organ harvesting.

Yeah.

Which I don't know how much you know about that.

Some.

But they're talking about an eight or a ten billion dollar market.

We would made a shoes out of organ harvesting.

Yeah.

Say that again.

We even made a shoe that will expose all the organ harvesting.

Oh, God.

I thought you said you made a shoe.

Shoe out of organs that were buying it.

I'm like, that's a

best show.

That's a bridge too far, right?

Yeah, that's

a place that up.

I want to show you.

Actually, the shoe is is actually pretty crazy.

Let me see if I can pull this out.

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Yeah, I'll find it because I want to send it to my friend Jan because he's been,

this is it, and you mentioned them in passing, but the Fulong Gong.

Fulong Gong, yep.

Right?

There you go.

This is right here.

If you look at it, the organ harvesting shoes.

So I really wanted to expose the whole thing.

Oh, man, that's fantastic.

Yeah.

So like, I literally wear this

in an NBA game.

Yeah.

Oh, man.

There's no way I'm going to be able to show this to the camera.

I found it

on Instagram.

I'm putting it up there.

This guy.

There it is.

I told you I was going to go all out there, right?

Dude, you are a jagged little pill.

So I was like, let's just expose it without the little part.

I was like, let's just expose the whole system, man.

What size shoe is that?

Oh, these are like 17s.

What do you wear?

You wear a 17.

17s.

And the crazy thing is, these are not even basketballs.

This is his shoe, Mike.

Well, I'm just saying that if it were my shoe, there'd be room for Stomp Org.

He's got room, like it really is a billboard.

You're like an NASCAR.

So these are not even basketball shoes.

These are like, you know, Converse, like some type of like, these are like walking shoes out there.

And I was like, so afraid that I'm going to wear those shoes and roll my ankle in them.

So these are not like true basketball shoes.

Like you walk with those shoes out there.

I'd wear those.

Yeah.

So this is.

Can I get a pair of those?

Of course, yeah.

Like, where do I go?

Where do I order?

So we have to, we have to make one, but yeah.

Well, I'm going to need two.

Otherwise, I'm limping around with my right foot with an important message and a hush puppy on my other one.

The other one was about, if you can pull it up, the other one was about the surveillance cameras.

Oh.

It was about how the Chinese government used surveillance cameras to just track people.

Well,

that's important to me, too.

But it's also interesting that it was a camera and a shoe combined that really brought you to where you are.

It's attention being paid and people reacting reacting as they react.

You just forced people

to

you put them in a really inconvenient spot.

I mean, billions and billions of dollars.

And I'll just say it, man.

I mean,

how else can you spend this?

The NBA made a financial decision that had absolutely nothing to do with principle.

I was having this like hearing in DC

and I like all these congressmen and people are asking me like a lot of like tough questions both sides Democrats and Republicans like I asked them like at the end of our hearing I asked him one simple question I was like listen how can a dictatorship can control a hundred percent American made organization like NBA and fire a US citizen

They all looked at each other and they said, we have no answer.

And then they looked at their shoes because that's what people do.

Yeah.

When they don't know where else to look.

I mean, listen, till this day, I don't talk about politics.

I can proudly say that, like, listen, if you human rights is above politics, I don't care which side you vote for, whoever party you cheer for, or whoever congressman or senator you support.

Like, you have to care about human rights, you know.

And

I'm so happy that my message never changed.

No one can spin my message and say, well, he's doing this because of that.

I really care about people, man, because I think that the one thing that our world is missing is empathy.

While we are comfortably living in this country and playing basketball, making millions and eating the most delicious food and sleeping in the most warmest bed, on the other side of the world, people are losing their loved ones, losing their lives and losing their homes.

So for that's why, I mean, I would just wish that more athletes, because they play a very important role in our society.

I wish they just more athletes stand up for what they believe in.

Well, in their defense, Ennis, it's only the hardest thing in the world.

It's only the the hardest thing in the world.

And the fact that, I mean, I know it must have been difficult for you, but I just,

I don't know how else to say it.

It's just overwhelming for people to do that.

I mean, look, it's one thing to say a thing.

It's another thing to say it and then say, I mean it.

In fact, I'll raise my hand and take an oath.

In fact, I'll make a pledge to God and my family.

But then

you really turn the screws.

And then you start start to see where the courage of the convictions is and what did you sacrifice a career check millions of dollars personally check your family yeah check your friends check

so

what else can they take the thing is

say someone like LeBron someone like Kevin Dren, someone like Stephanie Curry, or all these atheists who's been, you know, signed with Night Here or whoever, right?

If they say, like, stop the slave labor, right, to Nike or whoever, they will stop it.

If all these like players get together and actually like started to like become a movement, like my voice is only one, right?

But think about if Kevin Dren, Stephanie Curry, or LeBron James or like these people started to join.

I don't want to say I want to educate them because they already know the conversations that are happening.

They already know that there's shoes being made by slave kids back in China.

It all matters to like if they're gonna stand for what they believe in.

And you know, many of them came out and said, you know, we are more than athletes,

but then you pick and choose.

Do you have security?

I do.

In America, I mean, I am in touch with FBI, but when I go outside of America.

No, I mean, like, you showed up here by yourself.

Would you drive yourself here?

Oh, no, downstairs.

I have people.

You have somebody downstairs.

Okay.

I have people downstairs, yeah.

Look, man i'm trying to do two things now just as a human being who's been walking around for 60 some years i'm trying to put myself in your place

and i'm trying to put myself in lebron james's place

and i'm trying to put myself in stephan curry's place

and what you just did you literally just called them out right here you literally are just saying if you could take half a dozen of the creme de la creme nba players and come together Literally, sit down right here, cameras, anywhere, and just say,

we're sitting here united

with one goal, to make this stop.

And we're not going to play until you stop it.

I mean, you put it out there.

I'm articulating it, and I'm just really wondering at what point

do one of those, like, what would it take?

If you could pick one of them to stand right next to you and say everything that you've just said, who would it be?

I think like the like someone like LeBron, right?

I mean, he is the face of the league.

And he was the one person that during like 2020, when all the protests were happening, I mean, like, he was the one, like,

I guess, like the biggest name in sports that came out and said, okay, this is wrong, this is right, this is that, this is this, right?

So every player, pretty much like an NBA, look, like, looks up to him.

And like, he just

signed a $1 billion contract with Nike.

It's a lifetime contract, by the way.

So like what else do you want?

You know what I mean?

You are LeBron James.

Like what else do you want?

And you have a chance to become like maybe, I'm not saying as big as Muhammad Ali, but like, you know, bigger.

Maybe.

So think of just with the media now, with the social media and everything, like you could get bigger, but now like

half of the country thinks you are a hypocrite because you are standing things that are happening in america because you know that is not going to affect your pocket but innit he's not looking at half the country not that half he's looking at the half that show up at every game no matter what who applaud he's looking at what he wants to see right right it's like there's the elephant i'm gonna focus on the tusk never mind all the rest of it so but i get your point yeah so

obviously he's not the only name i'm just calling him out because because I mean he is the face of the league still at the age of like 40, 41.

So I just hope that like I'm just saying like put yourself in their shoes, put your kids in their shoes.

If your mother, if your sister, if your daughter was on those concentration camps, getting tortured every day, would you still pick money and business over your morals, values, and principles?

Empathy, man.

Empathy.

You know?

Yeah.

Well,

empathy follows awareness.

Right.

Typically, Not always,

but, you know, the ostrich syndrome is the thing, you know.

Once you, God, there's a,

I forget who I was talking to this about, but the most compelling anti-war movie I've ever seen is called Come and See.

Okay.

You didn't watch it?

I almost can't recommend it because it'll stick with you in a way that you probably don't.

But then again, here I am mentioning it.

It just,

the point is,

I just took a tour of Dachau.

I was in Germany and I felt I didn't really want to see it.

Yeah.

If I'm being honest, it didn't feel like a great way to spend a cloudy day.

I don't know.

But I'm so glad I did.

It's like I didn't learn anything new,

but everything I thought I knew I saw.

And when you're standing on a place, reading a plaque that's explaining specifically what happened on the place where you're standing,

okay.

It's just another level.

LeBron James didn't hang up on a nice Jewish girl 25 years ago who invited him to a dinner.

He didn't have a mother who said,

right,

wait to hate him till you meet him.

He didn't have your past, you didn't have his, and so forth and so on.

But I just find it so

extraordinary to like, all these guys are just living their lives, and then this kid comes over from Turkey and puts on a pair of inconvenient shoes, and now they're being called out.

And look, I told you there were two things.

The first thing, since I talked to you last, was the organ harvesting thing.

The other thing was October 7th.

In fact, I think you and I probably talked right before that.

We did, yeah.

Pretty much, yeah.

So

I mean, given all of this, and I know you don't get political, but you kind of open the door.

Where are you with what's going on over there now?

So here's what I look at it.

I have so many Jewish friends.

I have so many Muslim friends.

And obviously, after October 7th, both sides reached out and we had a lot of conversations together.

This is what I focus on.

The innocent people.

Obviously, as a Muslim, of course, I support my Palestinian brothers and sisters.

But at the same time, there are thousands of innocent people, kids, whatever, civilians, mothers, fathers are being killed on the Israeli side as well.

And when I say this, people go crazy.

It's like, no, no, no, you have to pick a side.

Like,

I don't get into politics.

People behind a table are the ones that are giving the orders, but the innocent people on the streets are the one that gets hurt.

So what happened on October 7 was one of the most disgusting thing that happened.

After that, I started to research, but this is what I found out, actually.

So our prophet, a prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him,

had war rules.

Like when we go to war, he said we have rules.

And I looked at the rules, right?

He said, when we go to war, we are not allowed to kill babies.

We are not allowed to kill women.

We are not allowed to kill elderly.

We are not even allowed to kill animals or cut down trees.

We are not, if someone is running, you cannot go after them and kill him.

We are not allowed to knock down the holy areas like mosques or synagogues or temples or church.

We're not allowed to kill a priest or a rabbi.

So if any group or if anyone goes against what our prophet said, he does not represent true Islam.

So what Hamas did

that day does not represent true Islam.

I just want to get it out there.

And you know what?

All the rules and everything out there is actually on the internet.

So you can actually go and look at it

there's some rules on the other side too right the ten commandments

everybody's got a playbook even the nba yeah there's a playbook for you that's why i'm like yeah exactly so that's why i'm like i try to focus on the kids and the innocent people like when i we just talked about it when i went to jerusalem when i brought the israeli side israeli kids and palestinian kids together right I remember like the first day the Palestinians were standing in one half court and Israeli was on on the other court.

Forget about passing a ball to each other.

They were not even like shaking hands or they were not even looking at each other.

And

I like started to put them in the same team.

They were not passing the balls, whatever.

And then after a while, because those are just kids, after a while, you know, they started to like talk, have conversations.

And I remember like when I put myself in...

in the same team with a Jewish kid and a Palestinian girl.

I got a rebound.

I passed the ball to this Jewish kid.

He crossed someone over, he passed the ball to this Palestinian girl, and she scored the ball.

While she was coming back, they high-fifed each other.

I'm like, this is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen in my life.

Like, this is what we need, you know?

And then after two weeks,

you started to like, they started to hug each other, they started to exchange numbers, they started to like follow each other on Instagram.

I'm like, this is what we need the most in life, man, because everybody has their right and wrong.

You ask the Palestinian side, they have rights.

And you ask the Israeli side, they have rights, whatever.

But like, as an activist and as a Muslim activist, of course, I care about my Palestinian brothers and sisters, and what's happened over there is terrible as well.

But at the same time, man, I have to care about those innocent people on the Israeli side, too.

It's really the most beautiful thing about sport.

The idea that when people who don't agree on much come together,

it's a high five, a great no-look pass.

I mean, it's like, that's a great thing.

It's a small thing, right?

It's a high five.

That's it.

That's all I needed, man.

But a shoe is a small thing, too.

Maybe they're no small things,

as I say to a seven-foot.

How tall are you exactly?

With shoes on, I'm close to seven foot.

I say seven foot because it's easier to say.

Who do you admire?

Who do you admire in the wide world of sports more than anyone and why?

I will pick, I think, Mohamed Ali because what he did, not only on the ring, but off the ring, was just

you realize how despised he was.

Yeah.

At one point, yeah.

69, 70, 71.

And

then he became a legend after that.

Do you ask anyone now that what he did on and off the ring was just unbelievable?

How do you sum up that?

Was it sacrifice?

Was it standing for a thing?

Was it being unpopular, willing to be hated?

I think the sacrifice, not only talking about money or I'm not only talking about like career-wise, because

everybody can go out there and speak up things that are most matter to themselves.

But once the money or the family or the career got involved, many people says like, okay, you know, that's where I just draw the line and say enough.

But I respect people who goes beyond.

and actually make some sacrifices for what they believe in.

That's where I start to respect people.

It's all about hypocrisy, you know.

I'll give you the best example.

Colin Kaepernick was my really good friend.

When

I

was having all this, you know, fights against, you know, the Turkish government, me and him sit down and had a lot of conversations about like what can I do to fight border.

Did you know each other prior to that, or did he reach out?

No, we were messaging on he followed me on Twitter.

I followed him back and we're just messaging and finally finally we met in new york um he was giving a lot of ideas about how i should fight and bring even more awareness

the day i started to criticize nike i never heard from him ever again

so

that shattered my heart because this guy used to send

His like once a month he used to send me gifts his jerk.

I still have his jerseys.

I still have his jerseys in

in my house you you can pull it up too i mean it's on google like if you put nskin or call in capernick our picture will come up but um

i just thought that you know he will you know stand with me and i'm like well i finally have a friend that who made pretty much like a similar sacrifice

and uh the day i started to courtesize nike i never heard from him ever again I tried to text him a couple times.

I, you know, sent him a message on social media, but that was it.

This is sort of interesting.

I'm going to send you

a link to a story I wrote that was actually inspired by him.

And it's called Something to Stand For.

In fact, it was turned into a movie.

And

I was struck.

God, when was it?

When did all the kneeling start?

2000, I guess, like, I'm trying to think, actually,

19, 20, maybe a little, maybe like 17, 18, maybe, even?

I think so.

Yeah.

I think so.

Because I was so torn.

I like to give everybody the benefit of the doubt, but it was such a strange thing to see, never mind Colin, but a stadium full of people so confused over whether to stand and sing or kneel and pray and just all everybody doing different things in an attempt to somehow express themselves, which is really not so different than writing some words on a shoe.

Right?

This is the human condition.

We feel something and we want to share it.

We want the camera at us so more people can see it and whatever.

But I think that

it's the great struggle of

our time.

What will you stand for and

why will you do it?

And when the going gets tough, will you stick or not?

That's the important part.

I mean, this isn't even comparable.

It happens to me in a thousand different ways all of the time.

But

once you say a thing, if I say, look, you know what I really want?

I want the sponsors on this podcast to all make their products in America.

That's what I want.

And I do.

But how much do I want it?

Because there are a couple of sponsors here that make a terrific product, but it's not made in this country.

Now, what do I do with that?

How do I think about that?

Where do I draw the line?

It's real easy for people to look at me and go, oh, well, you're bringing, I guess you sold out, didn't you?

Well, maybe I did.

Maybe I didn't.

Maybe my line is just drawn a little differently.

I'm not making excuses.

I'm just saying that you mentioned the word hypocrisy.

Everybody is looking for the inconsistency

in their hero, the fault and the star.

Because we love to bring guys like LeBron down.

We love that.

We like to build them up.

We like to bring them down.

You're weird and super interesting because I don't know anybody who's who sacrificed

so much.

So blah blah blah.

Why did you write the book and what do you want people to feel when they read it?

Well because I was just

I wanted to give something to the world because all these threats, all this thing,

I wanted to was actually on internet.

There was so much threats at one point, I wanted to do all life insurance.

I called the company and said, listen, you have a very high percentage chance of getting killed.

We cannot give you a full coverage.

We can only give you a half coverage.

So I literally have two different coverages now, half and half, because they didn't want to give me the full coverage because they said, well, I have a high percent chance of getting killed.

When I had a conversation with the State Department, some people from the State Department, they told me not to give their name.

We sit down and had the craziest meeting.

They told me that which government can use which tactics to get me or bring me down.

It was literally like when I walked into the room, there was like all the countries lined up one by one.

They said, China,

I said, you are 30, whatever years old, you're single.

From now on, you'll be getting text messages, calls, DMs, WhatsApp messages from one of the most beautiful girls in the world.

Do not answer any of them.

They're Chinese spies.

They said you will be stopping on a light and a car will be coming and hitting you in the back.

And then the girl will come out, be 10 out of 10, and we'll exchange numbers and then boom, you'll become their slave.

Watch out.

For the last two, three years,

that got into my head so bad, I have not answered any girls.

I don't know what their motive is.

You know, are they out there to get me or do they really like me because of me?

Second one was Russia.

They said not in america but we talk a lot about like the russian issues too with like garrett casper or bill brother they said not in america but outside of america they will follow you and they could try to poison you they said iran they don't play with girls or poisons they will come and shoot you uh north korea they said they will try to hack you turkey they will try to kidnap you so

All these threats were happening, right?

And I had so many other conversations with FBI and they were just giving me so many different like threats that I've been receiving from many different ways.

But if ever something happened to me, I wanted to just

give something to the world.

This book, why I did it.

Literally, this is like

why I did it, why I sacrificed my family, which was, which people calls me crazy.

They said, dude, shut up.

You have not seen your family for 11 years.

Just shut your mouth and just, so they'll be okay, you know?

or just make 30 40 million more dollars and live the best life or just play basketball have play another five six years you're still young you're 29 30 years old um this book talks about why i did it why i sacrificed my family my career tens of millions of dollars um and give everything i had you know

regrets

um

no regrets the only thing that i

Just wish I played a little longer because when I changed my last name to freedom, I became a citizen, I changed my last name to freedom.

I wanted to make that word part of me carried everywhere i go so i was putting that word behind my jersey and every arena i go to i remember all the kids were chanting freedom you know in america

like you can take your freedom for granted like my teammates i remember when we had this conversation with my teammates they were destroying america they're like oh my god america is terrible and horrible i remember i woke up i walk in the locker room i'm like guys listen our season is about to be over and whenever our season is over, let's go to like some of the countries out there, like Iran, China, Russia, Turkey, North Korea.

And you guys will see like the real dictatorships.

Like, they have no idea.

So that's why I want, I wish I played a little longer.

So I want, because I wanted all the kids, all the younger generation out there to just

to learn about the true meaning of freedom.

What would you do?

if some team invited you to play again?

I'm still, listen, I'm still healthy.

I'm still 33 years old young i can still you know get a double double i believe you know and now like the league league is getting softer and softer every day man all the big men just wanted to pick and pop and shoot the ball no one wants to do the dirty work no one care about rebounds or whatever back or back to basket uh plays but um

I will definitely discuss with my people.

But what I care about is just not the money, not the fame, or not anything to inspire the next generation.

So if playing basketball is the reason that I can inspire the next generation, sure, I'll play.

But if not, then

the NBA hurt me so much with their hypocrisy.

I don't even ever want to watch NBA game.

Your family?

Do you think you'll see them again?

You know what's so amazing?

Right before I, when I got my green card, I was doing this big show.

And this lady said, you know, you don't have to wait five years.

If you're married with an American woman, it's only three years.

And I'm like, oh, I didn't know that.

The next day, I got so much DM from all over the country.

I bet you did.

All over the country, right?

Obviously, I waited.

But

so many Americans now invited me to their home for Christmas, for Thanksgiving, for Shabbat dinners.

I remember I used to, you know, wake up every morning and I used to pray to God and I was like, God, please let me see my family one more time.

But whenever I go around and America is treating me like one of their family members, when they treat me like I'm their son, right?

They invite me to like Shabbat dinners, Thanksgiving dinners.

To them,

I'm just another guest, but to me, it's another family.

I realize that God has given me a huge family and it's America.

Am I ever going to get to see my family ever again?

I have no idea.

My mom is getting old.

My dad is getting old.

I don't even know what their face looks like.

My brother sends me pictures of them sometimes.

He plays basketball outside of America, Turkey and America.

But like I have no idea what they even look like now.

But I know that deep down they're proud.

They cannot say that they're proud because that is an act of terrorism to support me.

But I know deep down that they are proud.

They've been through a lot.

You know, they got fired, they're thrown in jails.

My mom got spit on her face when she goes to supermarket.

My dad got kicked out of a mosque recently.

But

I know deep down that they are proud of their son.

Hannis, I don't know you well enough to be proud of you, but I admire you in the same way.

When I think about the guys who signed the Declaration of Independence and how many of them had so much to lose.

You know, they were the 1% once upon a time.

They risked everything, and many of them lost everything.

And so

the ball's on you to do this.

Appreciate it.

And I guess the final thought is:

all of the things

that you're trying to impact are enormous.

All of the ways you've attempted to do that are tiny.

A dinner, a phrase, a shoe.

Micro-macro.

Right?

Big little.

Yeah, no, without sacrifice, there is no freedom.

And I hope that

I can pass this message or torch to a next generation because

if no America, China is next.

And I don't want to see a world that is being run by the Chinese dictatorship.

We would not want to be living in it.

I'm serious about those shoes.

I'll buy a pair.

Of course.

The book is called, In the Name of Freedom, This Is the Galley.

The actual copy is available in stores right now.

And for the record.

Oh, no.

Yeah.

This is not the actual copy.

Ennis Freedom succumbed to an old trick that I did when I wrote a book.

You get the cover done first.

By FedEx, yeah.

Right.

And then the book's not ready, so you need to go out and show people the book.

So I picked this up and I started looking through it, and I'm like, man,

this guy is

so much to say.

Well, this is Jordan Peterson's book with his cover

on it.

It's just a prop.

Jordan Peterson, don't hate me, please.

Jordan Peterson.

You know what, Jordan, I'm going to conclude with two messages.

The first is to Jordan Peterson.

Call me.

You got to come on this podcast at some point and buy End is Freedom's book.

It's great.

And my guess is if you ask him nice, he'll send you this one since it's actually your book, too.

And secondly, with great respect,

LeBron,

Stefan,

he's doing a hard thing.

No pressure.

But, you know,

everybody's watching.

Thanks.

Thank you for having me, man.

Anytime.

If you like what you heard.

And even if you don't, won't you please, won't you, please, pretty, please, pretty, please subscribe.

Well, I hate to beg and I hate to plead, but please, pretty, freaking please,

please sub,

please

subscribe.

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