"Detox" Your Kitchen

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That all just sounds too complicated for a cooking spoon.

100%.

Like, let's not do more math than we need to

use wood.

I'm Christine Zier-Clissette.

I'm Rosie Guerin, and you're listening to The Wirecutter Show.

This episode is called Detox Your Kitchen.

Hey, Rosie.

Hey, hey.

It's just us today.

Kyra is out.

We miss her very much.

But today, we are going to talk about something that often comes up in questions from Wirecarter readers.

We get a lot of questions from people who are wondering about the products in their home and the sort of health implications of those products.

And it kind of runs the gamut.

We get questions about all types of products, but a lot of times we get questions about the kitchen.

People have a lot of concerns about what they have in their kitchen.

They're, you know, trying to maybe reduce their exposure to certain types of materials.

Maybe it's plastic, maybe it's non-stick coatings.

And we thought this would be a great opportunity to kind of dig into that a little bit because we actually have a lot of information on the site and we have some experts who can speak really clearly to this issue.

So, Rosie, I thought it'd be interesting to bring two of our wire cutter colleagues on the show to discuss how to approach detoxing your kitchen.

And I'm saying detoxing with huge

air quotes.

Yeah.

Why air quotes?

Because, you know, your kitchen is not a toxic waste dump.

And we really want to emphasize that, you know, the risks that you face in your kitchen are, it's not like a toxic river or something like that.

But by the same token, it's the place where you are keeping the things you use for eating, drinking, right?

It's a place that you can control a lot of, you know, what goes into your body.

Right.

And the truth is, there are places in your kitchen where you may want to reduce your exposure to certain types of materials.

And so we're going to have Katie Okamoto, she's our sustainability editor, and Marilyn Ong, Ong, who is our senior kitchen editor.

They are both a wealth of knowledge about this topic.

And Katie is really gonna speak to what people need to know about the science and the sort of health risks of certain materials.

And Marilyn is gonna be able to speak really clearly to what wirecutter kitchen experts have tested, the sort of swaps that you can make.

We're gonna run through sort of a list of different types of products that you may want to swap out.

Love it.

So after the break, our first kind of roundtable conversation, we're going to talk about where to focus our energy in quote-unquote detoxing your kitchen.

We will be back after a quick break.

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Welcome back.

Katie, Marilyn, welcome.

You've both been on the show before.

Katie, you edit all of our coverage around environmental issues for the site.

Yeah.

And Marilyn, you head our kitchen team.

And so you know a ton about the kitchen equipment that we recommend and great swaps that people might want to make in their kitchen.

Yep.

Very excited to have you both back.

Katie, we did an episode with you last fall about microplastics.

After that episode aired, my friends who are regular listeners of the show reached out to say that they went on a mini spree trying to reduce their plastic in their kitchen as much as they could manage and replacing it with silicone and glass.

I bring that up because it occurred to me when prepping for this episode that we should be clear at the the top here what we mean when we talk about reducing toxins in the kitchen.

So can you talk about it a little bit?

Sure.

And I think that your friend really is demonstrating that we all have a different relationship to risk.

And so when we talk about reducing toxins in the kitchen, we're talking about reducing the risk of exposure to

an array of substances, chemicals, particles, in some cases metals that may potentially have health impacts.

These are complex issues and areas of ongoing research.

And we're still establishing in some cases what those exposures might mean for our health over a long period of time.

Many times these exposures are cumulative, but there's a lot that we can't control.

And many of the exposures that we're discussing today really require addressing at the root through like system-wide change or regulation.

But there are some things that we can control as individuals okay so let's talk about what we can control a term i have heard both of you mention is an exposure budget where you basically choose what to focus on eliminating based on how important it is to you personally and everyone is going to have a different budget and they're going to spend that budget in a unique way so for instance one person might want to really eliminate all the plastic in their kitchen that's me and another person maybe if you have kids young kids or maybe if you have a disability, you might really need to use plastic in certain instances.

You know, glass might be too heavy, it might break.

There's all sorts of reasons why it might not be the right fit for you.

And so you will choose to use plastic in certain cases.

And that's kind of how you are budgeting out your exposure budget.

Yeah.

I mean, it's kind of this idea that if you try to be all or nothing about it, it'll just stress you out, right?

So you have to be kind of measured about what risk you are comfortable with and what you're not and what convenience or time-saving factors different products bring into your life that are worth spending a little bit of that exposure budget.

I think you make a great point, Marilyn, because I think that's true of how we make recommendations and make choices when we shop.

In general, we're always weighing the kind of costs and benefits.

And yeah, at Wirecutter, we're always thinking about the trade-offs really between like price, usability, aesthetics, whether it works, durability, repairability, sustainability.

And now we're also talking about potentially like these other exposures that can come from using products over time.

So yeah, just to say this budget concept is sort of true of all the choices that we make as consumers.

Nobody has the right answer.

It's always a highly individual one.

This conversation, like all of our conversations on this show, but I think also at Wirecutter in general, is like, this has to be rooted in in lived experience.

And that's not, you know, that's not monolithic.

The advice that you're giving and the guidance needs to be applicable, needs to be real.

Yeah.

And the exposure budget idea can kind of help you focus on what you are doing, what you are controlling and feel good about that and not worry about all the things that you can't control.

Exactly.

Now, Katie, I'm wondering, how much do you think eliminating things like plastic or nonstick finishes, how much does that really matter in the grand scheme of things?

Unfortunately, we can't say for sure how much of a difference it will make.

I will say there are some things that there is more robust evidence to support at least the exposures, even if we don't know 100%

how that will manifest in a health impact.

Since we're talking about supporting long-term health big picture, I do want to back up and say a lot of the the experts that I've spoken to when I've been reporting on plastics in particular have said that don't forget that there are evidence-based ways to support your health and your family's health and wellness over the long term through certain behaviors, things like getting enough sleep, balancing nutrition, going to get your annual physical.

So, just want to say that.

If you walk away with anything after you listen to this episode, I think one hope I I have is that it's that you can really simplify your quote-unquote kitchen detox

by prioritizing things that will last and repairing and maintaining what you have.

That's because a lot of the items that might expose you to microplastics might expose you to forever chemicals.

These are things that are less durable and less repairable.

I think one thing that we're starting to see in plastic research in particular is that we're now able to measure microplastics and nanoplastics and so people are starting to measure them everywhere they possibly can and so we're learning a lot more but it can also feel like a cascade of new information we're finding plastics here we're finding plastics there and i think the takeaway of that is trying to orient around durability in our purchasing and really thinking about it from like that scale rather than trying to get so hyper specific about like, how can I replace this particular item and then finding another particular item to replace, right?

Absolutely agree.

And I think that giving yourself time to kind of do this, you don't have to in one month max out your credit card and replace everything in your kitchen.

And you'll learn too, what you can live without and what you can't.

Okay.

So we know that plastics and forever chemicals are linked to some health issues, but the science is ongoing for what that means exactly in terms of our exposure.

So before you spiral, focus on what you can control.

Everyone's budget might look a little different, but you can make choices about what products you want to use and what you might want to phase out.

Let's get into some of the kitchen swaps that people might want to consider.

This is one of those categories that you as a person can control in your own kitchen.

Let's start with items that have non-stick coatings, things like non-stick skillets, the inserts to rice cookers and air fryers and some other appliances.

These non-stick coatings are made with forever chemicals.

Katie, what do we need to know about forever chemicals?

So forever chemicals is sort of a nickname for a class of chemicals that has thousands of different kinds of chemicals.

They're called PER and polyfluoral substances, PFOS, P-F-A.

That's such a mouthful.

Yes, they have been in the news quite a lot.

They are added to many different things that we use all the time.

They make things slick, non-stick, waterproof, oil proof, and they're something that will build up in the environment and in our bodies over time, hence the name forever chemicals.

We pretty much all have PFOS exposure.

It's one of those highly ubiquitous chemicals.

And some of those chemicals have been, you know, more widely studied than others, like PFOA and PFOS, PFOS, they're actually no longer used in nonstick cookware that's being made new because they were so concerning.

They've been replaced by other types of PFOS, and some of those go by names like Gen X and PFBS.

Those are used in nonstick cookware.

But just to like back up, the research is ongoing, but the links that science is starting to find are at certain levels are reproductive impacts, high blood pressure, developmental impacts, increased risk of some cancers, immune system function, and endocrine disruption.

That sounds really scary and it is very concerning.

Experts don't think that using a single product once is going to expose you to dangerous levels.

This is really an instance of accumulation over time, particularly because these chemicals do build up.

When it comes to PFAS used on cookware, so like those nonstick pans,

it seems that undamaged and unscratched pans are safe to cook with if they're used correctly, which means that they're used at moderate to low temperatures below 400 degrees Fahrenheit.

Above that heat, they can release fumes that are actually toxic enough to kill birds.

And so you can start to see that this is a pretty unstable compound at certain temperatures.

And people really should consider replacing those pans or getting alternatives that Marilyn will discuss if they start to scratch and flake.

Katie, we got a reader question.

This is someone who asked about nonstick coating.

So they said nonstick coating breaks down over time.

So doesn't this mean we're ingesting the coding over time?

What do you think about that?

I think that that's not an illogical conclusion to come to.

And I think that is really why, if you're taking a precautionary approach here, it's just cutting out nonstick pans is a wise, informed choice.

But once again, using them at low temperatures and taking care to use utensils on them that aren't going to scratch the surface can really mitigate that exposure.

So Marilyn, if someone is looking for alternatives to nonstick cookware or other types of appliances that have these finishes, nonstick is super convenient.

I mean, it's great.

I have it in my rice cooker.

I know a lot of people love their skillets.

What are some of the best options that your team has tested?

And give us kind of the pros and cons of those.

Yeah.

And, you know, I will also start by saying, like, if you have a nonstick pan, if it's new, if it's still working really well, as Katie Katie said, just use it when you absolutely need to, right?

It doesn't always have to be completely all or nothing.

If you really need it for an egg in the morning and that's the only reason you pull it out, that's a good place to start.

And I will also say that if your nonstick pan is not acting nonstick anymore, that means it's definitely time to let it go.

So if your eggs are sticking, if your eggs are sticking, if it's not just rolling straight off of it when you're cleaning it, your nonstick coating has worn off and is probably deteriorating.

And that's not a good look.

So time to let that one go.

But yeah, we do have other great options.

Cast iron pans are one of my favorites.

I keep mine on my stove.

I use it all the time.

They are not expensive.

Our top pick is $40, but Lodge makes another one that's $30, 12-inch pan.

You can do everything on it.

You can roast chicken.

You can bake in it.

I know it can be intimidating to take care of a seasoning on a pan, but I also promise that once you kind of get started and are okay with imperfection, because that's just life, it'll build up over time as you cook and can work out really great.

I love cast iron, but it is really heavy.

Beyond the maintenance part of it, it can be quite a lot to take it up and down off of it.

Absolutely.

Yeah, like our top pick cast iron pan is six and a half pounds, and that's a lot of weight.

So, another option that we recommend sometimes is carbon steel pans.

They're a little bit lighter.

Our top pick 10-inch carbon steel pan, which is a little bit smaller than 12 inch, but still can do a lot.

That one is like less than three pounds.

So it's still not quite as light as an aluminum nonstick coated pan, but it's much more maneuverable than a cast iron pan.

Does it have the same feature as a cast iron where it becomes kind of seasoned and it becomes more nonstick over time?

Our top pick is pre-seasoned.

So you can get pre-seasoned cast iron, you can get pre-seasoned carbon steel.

In both of those cases, I mean, during testing, we're taking out of the box and frying an egg right off the bat, and it's working great.

I have a enamelled cast iron omelette pan.

The advantage to it is that you don't have to season it.

And so it is finicky in other ways.

It's also heavy.

You have to preheat it for quite a while, but it does have a non-stick surface once you get it to a certain temperature.

Yeah, there's science going on about things adhering to a pan at certain temperatures and then releasing when certain proteins have coagulated and all of that.

So yes, that is all true.

And that reminds me: you know, another thing that we should talk about is

a lot of times people buy nonstick cookware sets.

And so, it's not just like a skillet that you're dealing with.

You have a stock pot with nonstick lining, you have saucepans, and in most cases, you don't really need a nonstick coating on a stock pot.

If you're boiling water for pasta or making a soup, there's so much liquid in there, like the nonstick coating isn't doing much for you.

And in those cases, you absolutely should just swap those out for stainless steel tripod cookware, which is layers of stainless steel around a layer of aluminum, which is a really great heat conductor.

And we also recommend, like you said, enameled cast iron.

And so when you see like those beautiful Les Crusé Dutch ovens and pots on social media, that's what that is.

It's enameled cast iron.

And yes, that enamel can also...

be really great at releasing foods and not be terribly sticky.

Tri-ply stainless steel, on the other hand, can can get a little sticky.

I mean, that's why it's great for searing meat and searing proteins.

There's a little bit of a learning curve, but it's totally doable.

And I have even fried eggs in tri-ply stainless steel and lived to tell the tale.

You were able to eat them.

It was fun.

What about some of the appliances that have nonstick coatings, like air fryers?

rice cookers, some of these other kind of smaller appliances.

So I would start with air fryers.

Most pod-shaped air fryers, including our picks, by and large, they use nonstick coatings on their baskets and in the surfaces inside the air fryer.

And this is why most air fryers don't go above 400.

Like if you're cooking in your oven, it's very common to want to roast something at, say, 425.

And people will be confused why air fryers don't go above 400.

And this is why, because of the nonstick coating, as Katie said, above 400 temperatures, it starts to become more volatile.

But here's the thing is the way heating elements and temperature probes work, it's not perfect.

It's not like your air fryer gets to 390 and then stops exactly.

You know, the heating element is still going.

The air in there is going to often heat above 400.

And so that means that your nonstick coating in the air fryer is going to be getting heated to these pretty high temperatures right on the borderline of what's recommended.

So we've always maintained that toaster ovens are more versatile, longer lasting than air fryers, and at the the end of the day, can do a really good job with a lot of things that air fryers do.

And if you're looking to limit your PFAS exposure, all of that, I mean, it just becomes all the more true.

We have this small toaster oven that we recommend, the Panasonic Flash Express.

I love mine.

I love mine too.

That's sitting on my counter at home.

And it just cooks beautifully.

It's really even.

It can handle frozen tater tots, frozen french fries.

It does the job really well.

And because it's small and compact, it also heats up really quickly and isn't going to be lacking in a ton of the things that you're looking for from an air fryer.

What about rice cookers?

My sister actually recently asked me this because she didn't want to have a rice cooker with a nonstick coating on the insert.

And it seemed really hard to find one that didn't have non-stick.

Yeah, rice cookers is a tough one.

We have always maintained that of all the appliances with non-stick coatings, a rice cooker is one where it's actually pretty reasonable.

And I say that because rice is sticky.

They used to make glue from it in China in my grandmother's day.

And so really what a rice cooker is doing is heating your water to boiling temperature.

So that's 212 degrees.

And then the keep warm setting is probably around, you know, 170-ish, that range.

And so the temperatures are not getting very high.

They are well under that 400 point of volatility.

And then you've got like a much easier container to wash when your rice is done cooking.

And so we've always felt like that's one of the most reasonable uses of nonstick coating in any of the appliances that we recommend.

But we also get that for some people, they're really, really trying to get to that like almost no exposure of PFAS in their home.

And so we are planning to focus on that for our next rewrite of the rice cooker guide.

We'd like to test, and we have tested some options in the past.

We've tested clay, we've tested stainless steel and have found that the level of like stickiness and everything, you get to a point where you may not even want to use the machine anymore.

And so is is that realistic?

Is that helpful for someone who wants a rice cooker in their home?

But we are going to focus on a few more options just to do more due diligence.

I will say, in the meantime, I have used my Instant Pot to cook rice,

which just has a stainless interior.

Yes.

The Instant Pot uses a stainless interior and it gets the job done.

It's not going to be like magical levels of

side by side with the Zojirushi or something, and it wasn't, the rice wasn't quite as good.

But

But it's, yeah, it's fine.

It works.

I think there's one more category that sometimes people overlook, but baking sheets.

Yes, there's so many nonstick cookie sheets out there.

So, for baking sheets, we recommend Nordicware.

They are aluminum pans, and they are not non-stick.

There is no non-stick coating on them, but they bake and wash beautifully.

They're super durable.

They will last you forever.

And then, if you're concerned about like a nonstick coating, you can always put parchment paper down, right?

Yes.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

You know, we have cake pans that we recommend too, and a lot of them are made by USA Pan.

They do actually have a nonstick coating on them, but they are silicon-based.

They don't use the same forever chemicals that, say, non-stick cookware does.

We're going to take a quick break and when we're back, we'll talk through what you should know about the best swaps for plastic utensils and plastic food storage.

We'll be right back.

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Wayfair loves fall.

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And as your trusted destination for all things home, Wayfair's got everything you need to cosify your space, from comfy recliners to warm bedding and autumn decor.

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Wayfair, every style, every home.

Welcome back to the show.

It's our first roundtable episode.

Our guests are wirecutter sustainability editor Katie Okamoto and Senior Kitchen Editor Marilyn Ong.

That's right.

And today we are unpacking the concept of detoxifying your kitchen, what that actually means, where to start, materials and products you can consider if you're looking to shift away from plastics.

Katie, you came on the show to talk about microplastics a few months ago.

We'll link to that episode in the show notes.

And you told us that the most important plastics to pay attention to in the kitchen are anything that might be getting heated, like food storage containers you would put in the microwave, or any plastics that get a lot of wear and tear.

These would be things like cutting board or utensils that you're using a lot.

And then single-use plastics, things like disposable water bottles.

Yeah, I would really start by thinking about eliminating plastic from food or drink uses, where they'll be heated, where it's single-use plastic, and where you're like routinely going to be scraping or scratching that plastic.

And this is, again, about exposure over time.

And so we're thinking about the big picture here, not perfection.

Katie, can we talk about black plastic specifically?

I'm curious about this.

There was that report last October about flame retardants in black plastic utensils that gave me pause.

I'm curious how you processed that and what you can say about them.

I actually reported on this as well and ended up updating that article because the study that galvanized all these headlines around black plastic had a significant math error in it by an order of magnitude.

The study overall was looking for evidence that black plastic, which is often made from recycled electronics, can leach flame-retardant chemicals that are in electronics into food.

And so, this was a study.

There have been other areas of research into this question, but this was a study that did find that there was evidence of leaching some of those chemicals that have been linked to cancer in some cases, leaching that into food.

And so the correction found that the highest level of one chemical, which was linked to cancer, was actually at a significant lower level than the reference dose that the EPA sets.

The reference dose, just to explain that, it's the maximum allowable daily dose that the EPA has determined will not lead to serious health impacts over a lifetime, but not including cancer.

And so the authors maintained after this correction that the conclusion stands that black plastic used for food is concerning due to the potential for leaching some of these chemicals.

I would say clearly this is one of those instances where it's a question of your relationship to risk.

And I understand that that can feel quite unhelpful.

I would kind of back up and say, experts say there is a risk that plastic of any color might leach potentially harmful chemicals and or tiny plastic particles into food.

And so that just goes back to the advice that we were talking about a little bit ago, taking your relationship into risk into account since the research and regulations are works in progress.

But in general, trying to scale back plastic, specifically in these like heating contexts in the kitchen.

That all just sounds too complicated for a cooking spoon.

Like, why do you have to think about that for a cooking spoon?

We shouldn't have have to be like 100%.

Like, let's not do more math than we need to

use wood.

Marilyn, if someone is looking at their kitchen, they see their food storage containers, they see the plastic cutting board, they see the plastic utensils.

What are some good swaps here that people can make?

If you are routinely storing your leftovers in a plastic container and zapping it in the microwave, I would suggest switching to glass food storage containers.

So we have two top picks, the Pyrex Fresh Lock and Snapware Total Solutions Glass Container Sets.

Those are actually identical sets because the companies have combined.

But because those lids are plastic, I would recommend removing that lid if you're going to be microwaving your food.

We also are making the Pyrex Ultimate set one of our picks, and that's a set that has glass lids with silicone kind of gaskets around it.

And those are not airtight, they're not locking, but they don't leak super easily.

And so for everyday use in your fridge, they should be fine.

And that is a completely plastic-free option.

What about cutting boards?

There is evidence that plastic cutting boards can expose someone to up to like 50 grams of plastic annually.

Also, one of the experts that Michael Sullivan, our cutting boards writer, spoke to during research for that guide was telling him, you know, again, the exposure is on the small side compared to everything kind of globally.

And so, again,

you make your choice whether to use wood boards, which are heavier and more expensive, or if you need the lightness and the convenience of a plastic cutting board, you just have to know the exposure budget that you're spending on that.

But we do recommend quite a few wood boards that come in different sizes.

The Jones wooden cutting board is beautiful.

It's a maple and grain cutting board.

And again, the wood cutting boards will last you a long, long time.

That's great.

Yeah.

What about utensils?

Like we talked about not cooking with plastic utensils.

What are some good swaps that we recommend on the site for cooking utensils?

So we have a full spatula guide, and I think every recommendation we have on there is either wood, metal, and we do have some silicone recommendations.

If you stop using nonstick pans, you can use metal spatulas because cast iron and carbon steel pans are not afraid of a metal utensil.

You'll be free.

Yes, you'll be free.

You'll be free of that worry.

Yeah.

And one of my favorite tools of all time is the fish spatula.

It is thin and bendy, and you can do so much with it.

Marilyn, what about electric kettles?

I know sometimes these have plastic on the inside.

Some of them.

Yeah, I mean, some of them have full bodies of plastic.

So definitely don't recommend that.

Our top pick, the Cuisine Art Perfect Temp, is a great kettle.

There are a couple small parts of it that do touch the water.

So if you want a completely non-plastic option, the Quisinart gooseneck kettle that we also recommend in our guide, that one, the entire body of the kettle is metal.

I'm curious also about silicone because I see silicone products everywhere.

Katie, I know you've written about silicone, the pros and cons of using silicone, but what are the plastic implications of silicone?

Is it shedding just like single-use plastic or is it different?

It is a different material.

Silicone is a synthetic silicon-based polymer, and it's considered safer for health at high temperatures than plastic.

But there are some studies that show that it does shed.

And we just don't know yet enough about the potential health impacts to say what that means.

People usually are looking to silicone to replace single-use plastic bags, and it does, you know, obviously address the reduction of single-use plastic, which we do know can shed quite a bit.

And so I think with silicone bags, it's kind of like

thinking about the environmental big picture.

When you're buying any kind of reusable replacement for a single-use disposable thing, make sure you're going to reuse it and keep reusing it.

Otherwise, the environmental impact can be comparatively high.

And also, I would think about what's the problem we're trying to solve by going for something like a silicone bag.

Sometimes we can find alternatives that aren't like a one-to-one replacement.

You could maybe use a glass jar or some other kind of container.

So yeah, I think long story short, it does shed, but we don't really know exactly what that means yet.

So I just want to pause for a moment and recap what we've talked about so far when it comes to plastic.

Whenever possible, you want to replace plastic in your kitchen that is exposed to heat or abrasion.

Most of the time, the swaps are going to be things like metal spatulas or wood cutting boards or glass food storage containers.

Big plus to these is that they are going to last longer than the plastic versions.

We are going to link to some of our favorite utensils, cutting boards, et cetera, in the show notes.

You also want to look out for appliances that might have plastic or non-stick elements and upgrade to models that have maybe a stainless steel interior the next time you're in the market to get one of these.

And for the most part, silicone in the kitchen is probably okay,

but there might be some better things that you could use that would actually last you longer and you might already have in your kitchen.

Before we wrap, we always ask our guests that final question.

So Katie, you first.

What's the last thing you bought that you really loved?

I'm trying to do a low-buy this year.

Can you explain what that means?

Oh, sure.

I'm just trying not to buy things that I don't need.

But my Achilles heel is cookbooks.

And the book that I recently purchased is Emrikan, which is by Kushbu Shah.

It's all recipes from the Indian American diaspora.

And it's so good.

I cannot recommend it highly enough.

I make like Indian-inspired pizzas on sheet pans for friends and just me.

It's just like an amazing cookbook.

Living your best life.

Marilyn, what was the last thing you bought that you loved?

So I did not buy this.

I volunteered to long-term test this Homedix Shiatsu massage pad thing.

It's a cushion.

I love those giant massage chairs.

We've tested them in the office, but they're $3,000 and I can't fit one of those in my house.

So I volunteered to test this cushion and we just strapped it to the back of our Ikea Poeing chair that we also got secondhand from a friend.

And it is like, you know, the most ramshackle massage setup you can imagine, but we love it.

And it gives you like a nice back massage.

Yeah.

Well, Katie Okamoto and Marilyn Ong, thank you guys so much for joining us.

Thank you for having us.

Thank you.

Katie and Marilyn, now veterans of the show.

I love both of them so much.

Between the three of you, I really got a good sense of some of the ways I can think about reducing maybe plastic use and toxicity in the kitchen if it exists.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think, you know, the great thing about what both of them had to say is there's just, first of all, I don't think people need to be as scared as some people seem to be about different materials in the kitchen.

But if you are concerned, there are just so many good options.

And I think a universal theme here is that if you are looking to reduce some of these things like plastic or nonstick coatings, in your kitchen, the swaps are actually much more durable.

They're the kind of thing that will last a lot longer.

You'll probably be able to get many more years of use out of them.

And they're probably healthier for you in general.

So, when we, so, sustainability and also health, which I think is sort of a one-two punch.

What are your main takeaways?

Well, you know, one thing that I hadn't really thought too much about, but I really loved in this conversation is this idea around an exposure budget.

Yeah.

Everyone is going to have a different exposure budget.

Everyone will have sort of different factors that are more important to them than others.

And for me, that really means means personally reducing plastic when it comes into contact with my food.

So I've pretty much gotten rid of all of my plastic food storage containers.

I have glass containers.

But for me, like I'll continue using some plastic tools in the kitchen.

And I will continue to use the nonstick insert in my rice cooker because as Marilyn mentioned in the episode, the rice cooker doesn't get, you know, so hot that you really have to worry about off-gassing or something.

Right.

So I, you know, I think that's just a really good thing to keep in mind.

Like you don't necessarily have to reduce everything.

It doesn't have to go to zero.

Just focus on where it's most important for you personally.

I think that's perfect.

And I also think that my takeaway is similar.

My exposure budget is slightly different than yours.

I have little kids.

So I think I'm really trying to

do those swaps where I see them.

The reality is we have plastic containers in our home.

They work for myriad reasons, but I'm bearing in mind, we're not going to heat them up.

Yeah.

We're going to throw them out or recycle them if they have abrasions, if they have cuts.

And then we also have nonstick pans that work really well for us.

But I think a thing I learned from this is that 400 degree mark.

So bearing in mind that we have to use these pans correctly, keep the heat below 400 degrees so that we're not worried about those fumes releasing from Teflon.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, a lot of these products like the non-stick cookware, the plastic, you know, bento box or like kids' snack container, these are really useful and they can be like the right thing at the right time.

Yeah.

So you shouldn't feel guilty or like you're poisoning your family or anything.

It's just about sort of choosing the right tool for the right time.

Love it.

We should also mention before we go that this is a huge topic.

There is continuing research.

We hear more and more about it almost every day.

We covered a lot in this conversation.

We didn't cover everything exhaustively.

So we're going to talk in a later episode about water filtration specifically and when to think about filtering your water, how to do it.

And also another consideration is air pollution in your kitchen, particularly when it comes to a gas stove.

And when you might want to swap to an induction cookery.

Induction, it's a whole other

category.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I know that Wirecutter has done a lot of testing and reporting on that too.

So TBC.

If you want to find out more about wirecutters coverage, Marilyn Ong's reporting, Katie Okamoto's reporting, if you want to check out any of the products we recommend today, check out the website or you can find a link in our show notes.

Thank you so much for listening.

Christine, we got Kyra back next week.

That's right.

I'm looking forward to it.

Off we go.

See ya.

The Wire Cutter Show is executive produced by me, Rosie Guerin, and produced by Abigail Keel.

Engineering support from Maddie Mazziello and Nick Pittman.

Today's episode was mixed by Catherine Anderson.

Original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, Alicia by YouTube, and Diane Wong.

Wire Cutter's deputy publisher and general manager is Cliff Levy.

Ben Fruman is Wire Cutter's Editor-in-Chief.

I'm Christine Searclissette.

And I'm Rosie Guerin.

Thank you for listening.

No joke, I left a gas stove on low with a cast iron pan on it for a week.

What?

Because we went away and we came back and found our cast iron pan still seasoning on the stove for a week.

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